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the wonger need food
09-07-2007, 01:16 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/10337299


Bush's final play of the game was an interception that Giordano returned for a touchdown. An instant before Bush could grab Giordano from behind, he was taken out by a sloppy offensive lineman. Bush slowly stood, walked to the bench and sat down with his head in his hands.

An hour later, while most of his teammates were climbing into jeans and T-shirts, Bush lovingly pulled on a crisp yellow Oxford, beige tie, light brown three-piece suit -- vest buttoned to the hilt -- and leather wing-tips. He placed a diamond into each ear. He wheeled a designer handbag and slung a Heisman Trophy backpack over his right shoulder. He looked a lot better in the locker room than he looked on the field, I'll tell you that.

And then Bush disappeared, leaving for the team bus. Saints officials said he would return to meet the media, but he never did. The media understood. Reggie Bush had just spent three hours embarrassing himself on national television. He wasn't coming back.

Exithios
09-07-2007, 01:37 PM
Reggie is the product of not only a dominant USC lineage but of the sports media as well. I dislike the guy but feel for him as well. This kid was never going to be anything more than a scat back and a slot receiver yet the media put him on a pedistal with a HOF tag before his rookie season even started. It won't be long before Reggie is seen as just another one trick pony.

Here's to hoping Mario will bathe in Reggies spot-light on opening day. :victory:

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 01:40 PM
And then Bush disappeared, leaving for the team bus. Saints officials said he would return to meet the media, but he never did. The media understood. Reggie Bush had just spent three hours embarrassing himself on national television. He wasn't coming back.



Coward.

hollywood_texan
09-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Bush as the physical talent, but does he have the work ethic to live up to the hype.

According to that article, it doesn't appear so.

Brando
09-07-2007, 01:45 PM
Bush as the physical talent, but does he have the work ethic to live up to the hype.

According to that article, it doesn't appear so.

Yeah, kinda sounds like YKW's work ethic.

HoustonFrog
09-07-2007, 01:52 PM
I hope he does well....he is on one of my fantasy teams

As for Bush...I mean I know we like to rag rivals and are tired of the Bush hype but isn't thins type of bust talk the same thing people are cursing when it hits Mario. Its one game and the whole Saints O looked pedestrian, including Brees.

gg no re
09-07-2007, 02:06 PM
I want to point out the play where Bush got the first down by two yards, but then he backtracked and tried to make things happen only to lose the first down by one yard.

Leahmic223
09-07-2007, 02:09 PM
Reggie is the product of not only a dominant USC lineage but of the sports media as well. I dislike the guy but feel for him as well. This kid was never going to be anything more than a scat back and a slot receiver yet the media put him on a pedistal with a HOF tag before his rookie season even started. It won't be long before Reggie is seen as just another one trick pony.

Here's to hoping Mario will bathe in Reggies spot-light on opening day. :victory:


Could you imagine if Mario has a monster day agaisnt the Chiefs?

The ESPN guys would all say "I told you all along Mario was the right pick..." yeah sure you did...the only person I remember saying that was Michael Smith and maybe one other guy whose name and face escapes me at the moment.

Go get em Mario, if there ever was a chance to shut up the doubters this week is the PERFECT chance :fans:

TexansLucky13
09-07-2007, 02:11 PM
Could you imagine if Mario has a monster day agaisnt the Chiefs?

The ESPN guys would all say "I told you all along Mario was the right pick..." yeah sure you did...the only person I remember saying that was Michael Smith and maybe one other guy whose name and face escapes me at the moment.

Go get em Mario, if there ever was a chance to shut up the doubters this week is the PERFECT chance :fans:

Michael Smith is the only person who deserves to be on television. He has my vote for Supreme Commander of Football Knowledge.

real
09-07-2007, 02:11 PM
I want to point out the play where Bush got the first down by two yards, but then he backtracked and tried to make things happen only to lose the first down by one yard.

While your at it, point out all the times Barry Sanders lost yards trying to make something happen too.

And every other back that depends on making guys miss.

TexansLucky13
09-07-2007, 02:15 PM
While your at it, point out all the times Barry Sanders lost yards trying to make something happen too.

And every other back that depends on making guys miss.

Ah, don't spoil the fun!

We all know....

:deadhorse

Lucky
09-07-2007, 02:18 PM
I want to point out the play where Bush got the first down by two yards, but then he backtracked and tried to make things happen only to lose the first down by one yard.
I remember the play:

2-4-NO 41 (11:01) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 44 for 3 yards (26-K.Hayden).

Was Reggie trying to pickup additional yardage? Or was he trying to avoid a direct hit by heading to the sideline? I'm not sure.

The Pencil Neck
09-07-2007, 02:19 PM
Lomas Brown, Ray Buchanon, and Skip Bayless were just on talking about Reggie Bush.

Bayless has always thought he was over-hyped. Lomas Brown agreed. And Ray Buchanon disagreed and said he's an exciting player and you have to get him the ball.

Didn't really get to listen to too much. Damned work.

TexansLucky13
09-07-2007, 02:20 PM
I remember the play:

2-4-NO 41 (11:01) 9-D.Brees pass short right to 25-R.Bush to NO 44 for 3 yards (26-K.Hayden).

Was Reggie trying to pickup additional yardage? Or was he trying to avoid a direct hit by heading to the sideline? I'm not sure.

If that is the case, he has BIG problems heading his way. (no pun intended)

jerek
09-07-2007, 02:22 PM
I never expected Reggie fulfill his billing (or the price tag), so file this under *yawn* for me.

Having said that, I thought Mario Williams was absolutely the right pick and would become a Pro Bowler DE. And though I did acknowledge he'd take 1-2 years to develop meaningfully, based on performance to date, I'm only batting .500 at 1 and 2 right now.

I still see Reggie as developing into the equivalent of a Brian Westbrook or Eric Metcalf. Good, but not "feature back" good, a back whose only dangerous attribute is speed, rather than vision or power.

Texan_Bill
09-07-2007, 02:22 PM
Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush

Sanders:
Lions: perennial losers
Lions: no O-line
Lions: no other weapons

Bush:
Saints: Super Bowl Contenders (if not, playoff appearance)
Saints: decent O-line
Saints: Brees, McCallister, Colston etc.

Think we may need to quit the Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush comparisons.

real
09-07-2007, 02:23 PM
Don't see anything wrong with Reggie avoiding hits.

TexanAddict
09-07-2007, 02:24 PM
Reggie Bush is no Barry Sanders

WWJD
09-07-2007, 02:24 PM
Not that they are the same body type but didn't Franco Harris have the reputation of going out of bounds rather than taking a hit? I remember John McClain talking about him and saying he asked him about it and he said he did it to prolong his career.

real
09-07-2007, 02:26 PM
Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush

Sanders:
Lions: perennial losers
Lions: no O-line
Lions: no other weapons

Bush:
Saints: Super Bowl Contenders (if not, playoff appearance)
Saints: decent O-line
Saints: Brees, McCallister, Colston etc.

Think we may need to quit the Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush comparisons.

You're the only one comparing them.

You have to have comprehension.

Follow me:

If Barry (one of the best backs of all times) took a lot of loss of yardage plays because of "trying to make something happen", why on earth is it this huge travesty when lowly Reggie Bush loses yards?

If one of the best of all time took a lot of losses, why are some of you guys acting like because Bush did it he's awful?

I don't see how that's comparing the two, especially when I added in "every other back that depends on making guys miss"....

gg no re
09-07-2007, 02:29 PM
I don't think Barry would give up the first down like that.

I don't think a lot of NFL RBs would give up the first down like that.

And that play was in the first half too.

TexansLucky13
09-07-2007, 02:29 PM
You're the only one comparing them.

You have to have comprehension.

Follow me:

If Barry (one of the best backs of all times) took a lot of loss of yardage plays because of "trying to make something happen", why on earth is it this huge travesty when lowly Reggie Bush loses yards?

If one of the best of all time took a lot of losses, why are some of you guys acting like because Bush did it he's awful?

You have a good point, but putting Sanders and Bush in the same sentence is disgusting, IMO.

real
09-07-2007, 02:33 PM
I don't think Barry would give up the first down like that.

I don't think a lot of NFL RBs would give up the first down like that.

And that play was in the first half too.

Can't argue with that.

In fact, I will argue this subject no longer.

Reggie is a good football player, and I'll leave it at that.

The1ApplePie
09-07-2007, 02:35 PM
Another topic for Super Bust lovers?

Bush was at least good last season, Mario was garbage

As far as hype
Bush: Consensus best player in college, Heisman winner, good O-line with other weapons around him

Mario: Not the best player on his own D-Line, hyped up soley by his combine numbers, was on the same D-Line as two other 1st rounders

Both were hyped up by the media, Bush with proven stats, Mario with just potential

Bush proved he could be a gamebreaker last year

What did Mario prove? That he is lazy and injury prone?

jerek
09-07-2007, 02:36 PM
What did Mario prove? That he is lazy and injury prone?

At the risk of wasting a part of my life that I'll never get back, how was Mario lazy?

HOU-TEX
09-07-2007, 02:37 PM
You're the only one comparing them.

You have to have comprehension.

Follow me:

If Barry (one of the best backs of all times) took a lot of loss of yardage plays because of "trying to make something happen", why on earth is it this huge travesty when lowly Reggie Bush loses yards?

If one of the best of all time took a lot of losses, why are some of you guys acting like because Bush did it he's awful?

I don't see how that's comparing the two, especially when I added in "every other back that depends on making guys miss"....

Did the Texans pass on Barry in the draft? People around the Nation ragged on Houston for not picking Bush or VY. I think fans here in Houston just want to find things to prove we didn't make a bad choice. I don't have a problem with it. I'm quite tired of hearing about them, but it's something I'll/we have to deal with.

FWIW, I didn't want either one of them. I wanted to trade back and grab Hawk, but I'm happy with the selection.:d:

real
09-07-2007, 02:37 PM
Don't see what Mario has to do with Bush as far as production goes.

Mario is a good football player too.

The1ApplePie
09-07-2007, 02:41 PM
At the risk of wasting a part of my life that I'll never get back, how was Mario lazy?

Constantly taking plays off
Giving up on the pass rush after 2 seconds (Colts games especially)
Lazy persuit on running plays
Getting destroyed by 230 pound Chris Cooley all game because he was never paying attention.

real
09-07-2007, 02:45 PM
I think fans here in Houston just want to find things to prove we didn't make a bad choice.

*change of pace*

1.
Cleveland Cavaliers</B>
LeBron James (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/JamesLeBron.html), F, St. Vincent-St. Mary's HS
2.
Detroit Pistons (from Memphis)</B>
Darko Milicic (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/MilicicDarko.html), F/C, Serbia and Montenegro
3.
Denver Nuggets</B>
Carmelo Anthony (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/AnthonyCarmelo.html), F, Syracuse
4.
Toronto Raptors</B>
Chris Bosh (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/BoshChris.html), F, Georgia Tech
5.
Miami Heat</B>
Dwyane Wade (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/WadeDwyane.html), G, Marquette



http://www.nba.com/draft2003/board.html

In 2003 Detroit passed on Carmelo, Bosh, AND D. Wade to take a guy who is no longer with their team.

They later went on the appear in two NBA finals winning one of them.

The guys we passed on don't matter. Winning is what makes people forget about a percieved "bad draft pick".

Specnatz
09-07-2007, 02:46 PM
Constantly taking plays off
Giving up on the pass rush after 2 seconds (Colts games especially)
Lazy persuit on running plays
Getting destroyed by 230 pound Chris Cooley all game because he was never paying attention.

And of course you are not biassed in the least. You have an agenda and will not let anyone detur you from this agenda.

he did not take plays off, talk about his production all you want but to say he took plays off, well you might as well be talking out your ass. Oh wait you are!!

Carr Bombed
09-07-2007, 02:48 PM
While your at it, point out all the times Barry Sanders lost yards trying to make something happen too.

And every other back that depends on making guys miss.

Sanders losses came mostly behind the line of scrimage. I don't ever recall Barry cutting it up the field, successfully getting the first down, and then back tracking, losing the first down. Reggie should of been happy with the first down, first down gains are successful plays in the NFL.

Its like a QB throwing the ball away. Bush needs to learn to fight another day and take what the defense gives him. Its like a 4 yard gain through the hole up the middle isn't good enough for him.........nope Reggie has to try to beat everyone to the edge for a chance of a 80 yarder on every play.

My brother in law and I were drinking and watching the game and one play stood out to me. Reggie Bush was trying to cut it to the edge and he got tackled from behind by the Colts DE #91 Josh Thomas (just a average player) and I turned to him and said...."Thats the difference between the NCAA and the NFL". At USC Reggie would of never been tackled from behind by a DE and would of turned that up the field for about 50 yards.

Exithios
09-07-2007, 02:48 PM
Another topic for Super Bust lovers?

Bush was at least good last season, Mario was garbage

As far as hype
Bush: Consensus best player in college, Heisman winner, good O-line with other weapons around him

Mario: Not the best player on his own D-Line, hyped up soley by his combine numbers, was on the same D-Line as two other 1st rounders

Both were hyped up by the media, Bush with proven stats, Mario with just potential

Bush proved he could be a gamebreaker last year

What did Mario prove? That he is lazy and injury prone?

You seem to be missing the entire point. Mario is a bust? Maybe or maybe not. The fact is that Reggie was touted as being the best thing since sliced bread and he has proven nothing more in the pro's than he has the ability to be an above average slot receiver. College stats are what they are, a staple for getting into the pro's, he is in the pro's now and those stats are as meaningless as your conjecture.

Mario and Reggie are no longer rookies, each with a full season under there belts. Mario has yet to play his first game in his second season. Reggie has and failed miserably. If you are going to make an attempt at "enlightening the masses", at least show you have more football savy than my 7 year old daughter.

Specnatz
09-07-2007, 02:49 PM
Don't see what Mario has to do with Bush as far as production goes.

Mario is a good football player too.

What it has to do with, is apple is in love with bush and he does not like anyone talking bad about his man crush.

The1ApplePie
09-07-2007, 02:52 PM
And of course you are not biassed in the least. You have an agenda and will not let anyone detur you from this agenda.

he did not take plays off, talk about his production all you want but to say he took plays off, well you might as well be talking out your ass. Oh wait you are!!

Mario was noted for taking plays off in college, and he does so quite frequently in the NFL as well.

Case in point the typical Mario Williams pass rush:

Attempt to bull rush blocker (go for the QB if he falls over)
If he doesn't fall over, get stood up and shove the OT for about a second
If he doesn't fall over this time, stop presure and watch the QB view the field and throw 5 seconds later

or, replace that with:
Attempt swim move but somehow end up tripping and falling on his face.

Double Barrel
09-07-2007, 02:54 PM
Not that they are the same body type but didn't Franco Harris have the reputation of going out of bounds rather than taking a hit? I remember John McClain talking about him and saying he asked him about it and he said he did it to prolong his career.

Yeah, I heard McClain talking about this recently, and he said that Steeler fans love Earl because he'd just run into defenders and plow them over. Franco would get out of bounds, but it extended his career, and probably would have for Earl if he'd done the same, as well.

As far as Bush is concerned, it's one game where the entire team played bad. People are so filled with hate and vitriol that they don't give these guys a chance to develop. He's not the 'next Gayle Sayers', but who is? Nobody.

PapaL
09-07-2007, 02:55 PM
Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush

Sanders:
Lions: perennial losers
Lions: no O-line
Lions: no other weapons

Bush:
Saints: Super Bowl Contenders (if not, playoff appearance)
Saints: decent O-line
Saints: Brees, McCallister, Colston etc.

Think we may need to quit the Barry Sanders v. Reggie Bush comparisons.

Lions had Herman Moore. He was one of the first Big Strong Fast WRs. Granted they didn't have anyone to throw him the ball.

real
09-07-2007, 02:57 PM
My brother in law and I were drinking and watching the game and one play stood out to me. Reggie Bush was trying to cut it to the edge and he got tackled from behind by the Colts DE #91 Josh Thomas (just a average player) and I turned to him and said...."Thats the difference between the NCAA and the NFL". At USC Reggie would of never been tackled from behind by a DE and would of turned that up the field for about 50 yards.

What about the play in Peyton's second season where he stared down the reciever and threw that INT.

Or that time that John Elway fumbled.

Or the other time when Ray Lewis was run over.


Or the time Deion Sanders got caught on.

PapaL
09-07-2007, 02:57 PM
You're the only one comparing them.

You have to have comprehension.

Follow me:

If Barry (one of the best backs of all times) took a lot of loss of yardage plays because of "trying to make something happen", why on earth is it this huge travesty when lowly Reggie Bush loses yards?

If one of the best of all time took a lot of losses, why are some of you guys acting like because Bush did it he's awful?

I don't see how that's comparing the two, especially when I added in "every other back that depends on making guys miss"....

Barry would then follow that loss of yards with a LONG run. Barry would lose 1, lose 2 yards, break a 90 yarder. Thats the difference.

HOU-TEX
09-07-2007, 02:58 PM
Mario was noted for taking plays off in college, and he does so quite frequently in the NFL as well.

Case in point the typical Mario Williams pass rush:

Attempt to bull rush blocker (go for the QB if he falls over)
If he doesn't fall over, get stood up and shove the OT for about a second
If he doesn't fall over this time, stop presure and watch the QB view the field and throw 5 seconds later

or, replace that with:
Attempt swim move but somehow end up tripping and falling on his face.

Dude! Did Mario boff your girlfriend or something?

Why don't you be crafty and make a voodoo doll to take your frustrations out on?:gun:

Carr Bombed
09-07-2007, 03:03 PM
What about the play in Peyton's second season where he stared down the reciever and threw that INT.

Or that time that John Elway fumbled.

Or the other time when Ray Lewis was run over.


Or the time Deion Sanders got caught on.

I'm not saying Reggie is going to be a bust, so don't take my comments out of context. (BTW, QBs thow picks and fumble, LBs get ran over, and CBs get burned all the time, its part of the game and happens every Sunday. Everybody will end up on the wrong side of a highlight film eventually..........RBs that goof up a 1st down gain DO NOT HAPPEN THAT OFTEN.)

I'm not the one who put rediculous standards that Reggie must live up to (ESPN) I'm just commenting on what I saw last night and I feel Reggie Bush will never be a everydown back until he learns how to run like a every down back.......right now, he is more of a liability when his team needs the "must have yards".

Right now, if Reggie Bush deserved to be the #2 pick in the draft, Houston should be getting ripped for passing on MJD.

Am I saying he'll never improve, no, I hope he does.

WWJD
09-07-2007, 03:05 PM
Yeah, I heard McClain talking about this recently, and he said that Steeler fans love Earl because he'd just run into defenders and plow them over. Franco would get out of bounds, but it extended his career, and probably would have for Earl if he'd done the same, as well.

As far as Bush is concerned, it's one game where the entire team played bad. People are so filled with hate and vitriol that they don't give these guys a chance to develop. He's not the 'next Gayle Sayers', but who is? Nobody.

Yep. You're right. The SAINTS stunk it up. The team. Not just Reggie. And when you play poorly against the Colts and that offense you're going to get 40 hung on you.

The1ApplePie
09-07-2007, 03:06 PM
You know a team is playing bad when a pulling guard gets blown up by a 220 pound LB and gets thrown into the running back.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:09 PM
Mario: Not the best player on his own D-Line, hyped up soley by his combine numbers, was on the same D-Line as two other 1st rounders
if you followed the draft or scouting process at all, you would've known that Williams was considered by most to be the best d-line prospect to come out of college in a LONG time, and the hype started when he first set foot on the NC State campus. just because YOU didn't know who he was because YOU were ignorant, doesn't mean he's a product of combine hype. if you actually watched the games or anything (or knew what to actually watch), it'd be abundantly clear that Williams was the most talented player on the entire team, and in the entire ACC at the time.

Texan_Bill
09-07-2007, 03:14 PM
You're the only one comparing them.

You have to have comprehension.

Follow me:

If Barry (one of the best backs of all times) took a lot of loss of yardage plays because of "trying to make something happen", why on earth is it this huge travesty when lowly Reggie Bush loses yards?
If one of the best of all time took a lot of losses, why are some of you guys acting like because Bush did it he's awful?

I don't see how that's comparing the two, especially when I added in "every other back that depends on making guys miss"....

Uhhhh, we know how you operate by now Xtru... While your at it, point out all the times Barry Sanders lost yards trying to make something happen too.Leave just enough wiggle room to crawfish out of it, but others noticed the subtle comparison also...

AGAIN:
The Lions and Barry had no other choice. If he didn't make something happen, the Lions were done. Bush doesn't have to do everything and therefore he is either not very intelligent or just not really a good football player if he doesn't understant the concept of taking what you can get and live to fight another down, because you have other weapons on your team.

Guys that depend on making people miss, can still gain positive yards and realize when the play is over and know when it can only get uglier before it gets better - and again, live to fight another down.

Plain and simple, Bush's decision was poor, and cost them on that particular drive.

Htownsportsfan
09-07-2007, 03:17 PM
This just goes to show you as the team goes so goes the player. I am not a big fan of Reggie but when the team plays well so does reggie, the same can be said for Mario when healthy. That was one of my concerns when we had him slated to be our number one pick. As bad as we were last year on offense we would have been roasted for taking a bust of a pick in Reggie cause he would have looked like he did last night. Both players will be exciting to watch ove rthe years but it goes to show if you are a top 3 or 4 pick its going to be hard on a bad team to ever justify your worth in the first few years.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2007, 03:17 PM
if you followed the draft or scouting process at all, you would've known that Williams was considered by most to be the best d-line prospect to come out of college in a LONG time, and the hype started when he first set foot on the NC State campus. just because YOU didn't know who he was because YOU were ignorant, doesn't mean he's a product of combine hype. if you actually watched the games or anything (or knew what to actually watch), it'd be abundantly clear that Williams was the most talented player on the entire team, and in the entire ACC at the time.

Was'nt Mario the newcomer of the year as a freshman ?

At N.C. State, Williams got a head start by enrolling in January. He started every game, registered his first sack against Wake Forest and finished as the team's seventh-leading tackler.

Williams, named a freshman All-America by The Sporting News, said he found himself too excited at times during games. "You have to stay calm, like in practice," he said.

Errant Hothy
09-07-2007, 03:18 PM
You know a team is playing bad when a pulling guard gets blown up by a 220 pound LB and gets thrown into the running back.

You know a RB might be over-hyped when he cannot avoid a pulling guard who is being cut by a LB (and it's not like he avoided the LB either)?

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 03:19 PM
Yep. You're right. The SAINTS stunk it up. The team. Not just Reggie. And when you play poorly against the Colts and that offense you're going to get 40 hung on you.

I think your missing a larger point. this is a TYPICAL reggie bush game.

some examples for you

12/31 @ carolina 3 carries, 20 yards
12/17 vs washington 7 carries, 14 yards
12/03 vs. sanfrancisco 10 carries 37 yards
11/26 @ atlanta 5 carries 24 yards
11/19 vs. cincinnati 13 carries 51 yards
11/12 vs. pit 10 carries 49 yards
11/05 @ tampa bay 11 carries -5 yards
...its taking too long to cut and paste these stats, but here are his TOTAL rushing yards for october and september...4 games for each

October- 4 games- 87 rushing yards
september-4 games 125 rushing yards.

ridiculously bad. He isn't a good player. He's barely mediocre. What you saw last night is what you get from reggie, pretty much all the time.

Errant Hothy
09-07-2007, 03:20 PM
if you followed the draft or scouting process at all, you would've known that Williams was considered by most to be the best d-line prospect to come out of college in a LONG time, and the hype started when he first set foot on the NC State campus. just because YOU didn't know who he was because YOU were ignorant, doesn't mean he's a product of combine hype. if you actually watched the games or anything (or knew what to actually watch), it'd be abundantly clear that Williams was the most talented player on the entire team, and in the entire ACC at the time.

QFT!

:fans: :texflag: :fans:

HoustonFrog
09-07-2007, 03:24 PM
Yeah, I heard McClain talking about this recently, and he said that Steeler fans love Earl because he'd just run into defenders and plow them over. Franco would get out of bounds, but it extended his career, and probably would have for Earl if he'd done the same, as well.

As far as Bush is concerned, it's one game where the entire team played bad. People are so filled with hate and vitriol that they don't give these guys a chance to develop. He's not the 'next Gayle Sayers', but who is? Nobody.

That was my point back in the beginning of this. The hate is blinding people to the fact that they also post in 9 page threads calling Mario a bust by saying he has to develop. It comes back to praying the guy we missed on doesn't become a star. All in all, we still have to hope Mario plays well, no matter what these guys do. Brees looked horrible and I'm not going to say his season is shot.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:26 PM
Was'nt Mario the newcomer of the year as a freshman ?
yup, also was named to the Freshman All-American team by three different places, first team All-American as a junior, ACC first team as a sophomore, has pretty much every possible school record for a DE (and he left a year early)...his great combine just reflected his amazing play on the field.

Double Barrel
09-07-2007, 03:27 PM
Yep. You're right. The SAINTS stunk it up. The team. Not just Reggie. And when you play poorly against the Colts and that offense you're going to get 40 hung on you.

We know all too well with our 1-9 record against them.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:28 PM
I think your missing a larger point. this is a TYPICAL reggie bush game.

some examples for you

12/31 @ carolina 3 carries, 20 yards
12/17 vs washington 7 carries, 14 yards
12/03 vs. sanfrancisco 10 carries 37 yards
11/26 @ atlanta 5 carries 24 yards
11/19 vs. cincinnati 13 carries 51 yards
11/12 vs. pit 10 carries 49 yards
11/05 @ tampa bay 11 carries -5 yards
...its taking too long to cut and paste these stats, but here are his TOTAL rushing yards for october and september...4 games for each

October- 4 games- 87 rushing yards
september-4 games 125 rushing yards.

ridiculously bad. He isn't a good player. He's barely mediocre. What you saw last night is what you get from reggie, pretty much all the time.
well, just based on rushing alone he sucks, but if you include his receiving, he's mediocre. but if you include his punt returning, then he's back to below-mediocre.

but as the experts say, he's a decoy, and that's the only reason why the saints did anything. forget the pro bowlers starting at QB, RB, WR, and LT, it's alllllll reggie.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 03:32 PM
if you followed the draft or scouting process at all, you would've known that Williams was considered by most to be the best d-line prospect to come out of college in a LONG time, and the hype started when he first set foot on the NC State campus. just because YOU didn't know who he was because YOU were ignorant, doesn't mean he's a product of combine hype. if you actually watched the games or anything (or knew what to actually watch), it'd be abundantly clear that Williams was the most talented player on the entire team, and in the entire ACC at the time.

pleeeeeeze.....Mario wasn't even a finalist for the Lombardy trophy.....he wasn't even considered one of the top front seven defenders in his class.

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 03:32 PM
well, just based on rushing alone he sucks, but if you include his receiving, he's mediocre. but if you include his punt returning, then he's back to below-mediocre.

but as the experts say, he's a decoy, and that's the only reason why the saints did anything. forget the pro bowlers starting at QB, RB, WR, and LT, it's alllllll reggie.

im not arguing his slashiness, im arguing that he sucks at THAT aspect of his slashiness...he's a crappy punt returner too .Im not impressed with him as a reciever, but i would be willing to listen to those arguements...but him in the backfield is terrible

Errant Hothy
09-07-2007, 03:40 PM
pleeeeeeze.....Mario wasn't even a finalist for the Lombardy trophy.....he wasn't even considered one of the top front seven defenders in his class.

And yet he was damn near the consensus #1 defensive player amongst the draft experts (including those that actually know what they are doing like Gosselin), and he would have gone with the 2nd pick to the Siants if the Texans had not drafted him.

And besides, the winning of post season awards in college is about the worst way to predicted who's going to make it in the NFL; just see the list of Heisman winners over the years.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:42 PM
pleeeeeeze.....Mario wasn't even a finalist for the Lombardy trophy.....he wasn't even considered one of the top front seven defenders in his class.
awards like the Lombardi are pretty much all based on hype. i mean, Rod Wright was a finalist that year.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:43 PM
And yet he was damn near the consensus #1 defensive player amongst the draft experts (including those that actually know what they are doing like Gosselin), and he would have gone with the 2nd pick tot he Siants if the Texans had not drafted him.
between the top two defensive players in that draft (Williams and AJ Hawk), i'd guess it was like 90/10 in favor of Williams amongst the experts as to who was #1.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Mario got his sacks vs inferior players in a couple of games...he disappeared totally in most of his games. Nobody thought those three sack games vs Wake Forrest and the little sisters of the poor all that dominant....nobody that knows what they are looking at.

He sure did look great in shorts at the combine though.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 03:47 PM
And yet he was damn near the consensus #1 defensive player amongst the draft experts (including those that actually know what they are doing like Gosselin), and he would have gone with the 2nd pick to the Siants if the Texans had not drafted him.

And besides, the winning of post season awards in college is about the worst way to predicted who's going to make it in the NFL; just see the list of Heisman winners over the years.
I'm just saying that some of you guys are revising history. He was tabbed a great prospect on his potential...his body, his combine.... not his game, 'cause he really wasn't that impressive at all. You guys are confusing the two issues.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:51 PM
sorry vinny, i was around the two years prior to that draft when everyone excited about seeing Mario Williams develop into a top 3 draft pick. he was a lock to go top 3-5 long before the combine. the combine just reinforced what everyone already knew about him.

and why are you putting all your eggs in the sack basket? since when are sacks the most important stat in the world? people assume that because a DE doesn't get sacks, then he "disappears" and takes plays off. it's nonsense. he didn't get the sacks in the big games because better teams can gameplan better for the better teams. that's the way it works for pretty much every position, actually. reggie bush wasn't that great in the Rose Bowl...that's the way football is.

WWJD
09-07-2007, 03:54 PM
Well let's see how Reggie's year pans out. He was horrible last night. I'm pretty sure nobody has to tell him that.

And if I remember he was the guy Coach Kubiak wanted that year. They couldn't get the deal done with him so they proceeded with Mario. Did I dream that or is that the case? I'm not being snarky just thinking that's what I read.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 03:55 PM
sorry vinny, i was around the two years prior to that draft when everyone excited about seeing Mario Williams develop into a top 3 draft pick. he was a lock to go top 3-5 long before the combine. the combine just reinforced what everyone already knew about him.

and why are you putting all your eggs in the sack basket? since when are sacks the most important stat in the world? people assume that because a DE doesn't get sacks, then he "disappears" and takes plays off. it's nonsense. he didn't get the sacks in the big games because better teams can gameplan better for the better teams. that's the way it works for pretty much every position, actually. reggie bush wasn't that great in the Rose Bowl...that's the way football is.
well, your pre-draft insight has been laughable around here for a couple of years...it all sounds good till reality sets in...one reason I don't respond to many of your posts.

have fun...but it's always a circle jerk when it comes to exchanging posts with you historically...I'm out. :mail:

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:56 PM
And if I remember he was the guy Coach Kubiak wanted that year. They couldn't get the deal done with him so they proceeded with Mario. Did I dream that or is that the case? I'm not being snarky just thinking that's what I read.
there's been a lot of talk about this, but i doubt kubiak ever told anyone in the media that he wanted Bush over Williams, it'd be pretty bad PR.

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 03:57 PM
well, your pre-draft insight has been laughable around here for a couple of years...it all sounds good till reality sets in...one reason I don't respond to many of your posts.

have fun...but it's always a circle jerk when it comes to exchanging posts with you historically...I'm out. :mail:

this is true.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 03:58 PM
well, your pre-draft insight has been laughable around here for a couple of years...it all sounds good till reality sets in...one reason I don't respond to many of your posts.

have fun...but it's always a circle jerk when it comes to exchanging posts with you historically...I'm out. :mail:
yeah i guess it's just easy to ignore the history and make up your own little blurb on the past. although really you're not ignoring the history; you just didn't pay attention to it as it happened. you only pay attention to the college game come draft time. and that's fine, but don't pretend you know anything when you're CLUELESS.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 03:59 PM
yeah i guess it's just easy to ignore the history and make up your own little blurb on the past. although really you're not ignoring the history; you just didn't pay attention to it as it happened. you only pay attention to the college game come draft time. and that's fine, but don't pretend you know anything when you're CLUELESS.

I'll put my historical insight and posts about the game against yours any day of the week. I think you need to look in the mirror when you are calling me clueless.

WWJD
09-07-2007, 03:59 PM
there's been a lot of talk about this, but i doubt kubiak ever told anyone in the media that he wanted Bush over Williams, it'd be pretty bad PR.

I THINK I read it somewhere but can't remember where. Or maybe John McClain said it on 610. Just thinking I didn't dream that one up.

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 03:59 PM
yeah i guess it's just easy to ignore the history and make up your own little blurb on the past. although really you're not ignoring the history; you just didn't pay attention to it as it happened. you only pay attention to the college game come draft time. and that's fine, but don't pretend you know anything when you're CLUELESS.

you know when your parents fight at dinner, and then somebody says something that goes too far, and mommy slaps daddy, and everybody gets silent...thats the kind of silence i felt when you just posted that...like something really ugly is about to go down.

HoustonFrog
09-07-2007, 04:00 PM
if you followed the draft or scouting process at all, you would've known that Williams was considered by most to be the best d-line prospect to come out of college in a LONG time, and the hype started when he first set foot on the NC State campus. just because YOU didn't know who he was because YOU were ignorant, doesn't mean he's a product of combine hype. if you actually watched the games or anything (or knew what to actually watch), it'd be abundantly clear that Williams was the most talented player on the entire team, and in the entire ACC at the time.

I think this is the same B.S. that others got snowed by. The guy wasn't even the best player on his own D..Lawson was if you watch tape. Most scouts, despite his workouts said he took plays off and there was concern about his motor. Many scouts interviewed since the draft even said that they were worried because he got many of his sacks against weaker teams while being owned against superior talent.

This doesn't mean I don't like Mario, or think he can't grow. But there are a ton of "Top Freshman" etc, etc that are overhyped. Calling people ignorant is just lame. The guys stock rose at the combines, no matter what your man crush tells you and for those of us who actually did watch but didn't have to take a cold shower after the fact, could see the pros and cons. He still would have gone high but it doesn't mean he was a stud. He just happened to be a guy that looks perfect on paper in in person and you have to figure out how to motivate him. Heck I'll evenb adnit that at the time I was a "move down and take him" guy. I just don't think I'd start throwing out insults and talking to my Mario Fat Head in my room because I don't agree.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 04:01 PM
this is true.
luckily for you guys, i'm taking a year off as far as the draft goes. life is going fast now, there's a kid on the way (yes, a li'l kastofsna), getting a house, new opportunities at work...just don't have the time or energy to focus on the college game as much.

but i'll still be here, don't worry. :heart:

Vinny
09-07-2007, 04:02 PM
I THINK I read it somewhere but can't remember where. Or maybe John McClain said it on 610. Just thinking I didn't dream that one up.McClain has talked about it often....I commented (and another fan did as well) on it after one of his radio shows a few weeks ago.

http://boards.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=20911&postcount=61

http://boards.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=20915&postcount=63

WWJD
09-07-2007, 04:04 PM
McClain has talked about it often.

http://boards.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=20911&postcount=61

http://boards.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=20915&postcount=63

Thanks Vinny! I try to catch his show so thought MAYBE that's where I heard that. Well I tend to believe that then. When you can't sign #1A you move on to #1B. Makes sense.

swtbound07
09-07-2007, 04:04 PM
luckily for you guys, i'm taking a year off as far as the draft goes. life is going fast now, there's a kid on the way (yes, a li'l kastofsna), getting a house, new opportunities at work...just don't have the time or energy to focus on the college game as much.

but i'll still be here, don't worry. :heart:

projected size- 8 pounds, 8 ounces
projected speed- too fast to catch
intangibles- high poop and vomit rates
anticipated hours of labor-16

congrats casty....seriously.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2007, 04:10 PM
So what would have happened if the Texans took Reggie ?

I think Reggie would have set a record with 153 catches for 700 yards .

Drafting Reggie could have been a major setback because you can't cut a QB with an 85% completion rate .

Double Barrel
09-07-2007, 04:14 PM
So what would have happened if the Texans took Reggie ?

I think Reggie would have set a record with 153 catches for 700 yards .

Drafting Reggie could have been a major setback because you can't cut a QB with an 85% completion rate .

Yeah, I maintain that Bush would have kept YKW on this team, because the special dump pass of our previous offense was right up Reggie's alley.

Texan_Bill
09-07-2007, 04:16 PM
pleeeeeeze.....Mario wasn't even a finalist for the Lombardy trophy.....he wasn't even considered one of the top front seven defenders in his class.

Vinny, usually you present much better arguments than this.... The Lombardi Award?? The same one that Steve Emtmen won and Brian Bosworth was a finalist for??

But I do understand what you are saying based on his potential rather than his body of work in college football.

Thing is, there is no sure thing making the jump from college to professional football. People bust all the time, people come out of no where all the time. Sometimes people live up to their potential, but it takes a while.

As much as I like to hammer Reggie Bush, really a season and a game are not much of a body of work. Same can be said for Mario. Personally, I think Reggie will be a bust and I think Mario will be an upper eschelon DL - but NOT elite AND not yet.

Vinny
09-07-2007, 04:18 PM
Vinny, usually you present much better arguments than this.... The Lombardi Award?? The same one that Steve Emtmen won and Brian Bosworth was a finalist for??

Sure, Boz had one of the great years ever for a college front seven player. Emtmen was a beast. What I didn't say was that having a great College year equates to being a beat in the pros....what I did say was that nobody considered Mario's SR season as awesome as stated in this thread. I stand behind that statement.....Mario's year wasn't considered all that outstanding.

I'm just saying that some of you guys are revising history. He was tabbed a great prospect on his potential...his body, his combine.... not his game, 'cause he really wasn't that impressive at all. You guys are confusing the two issues.

kastofsna
09-07-2007, 04:20 PM
Sure, Boz had one of the great years ever for a college front seven player. Emtmen was a beast. What I didn't say was that having a great College year equates to being a beat in the pros....what I did say was that nobody considered Mario's SR season as awesome as stated in this thread. I stand behind that statement.....Mario's year wasn't considered all that outstanding.
he made first-team all-american that year. not based on potential.

HOU-TEX
09-07-2007, 04:21 PM
So what would have happened if the Texans took Reggie ?

I think Reggie would have set a record with 153 catches for 700 yards .

Drafting Reggie could have been a major setback because you can't cut a QB with an 85% completion rate .

That's a little over 4.575 yds/rec. Don't you think that's being a little too generous? LOL!

Good one! :specnatz:

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2007, 04:28 PM
I think bad teams have to fight through bad luck or being dumb , maybe one magical player turns things around .

The Colts had the top two picks and selected Steve Emtmen , who promptly blew out his knees and also picked Quinton Coryatt from Texas A&M via Baytown , who I guess never really prospered .

The next time they picked #1 overall they did pretty good ( Manning ) . What happens if they picked Cryin Ryan ... they would still stink in my opinion .

Htownsportsfan
09-07-2007, 04:45 PM
Thanks Vinny! I try to catch his show so thought MAYBE that's where I heard that. Well I tend to believe that then. When you can't sign #1A you move on to #1B. Makes sense.

Wow I am really shocked by that now! The folks on the board rag on The General and now I know why. I stream 610 all day 5 days a week in my office while I work and that is the complete opposite of the line Mclame has been pushing since the draft. According to his original story Kubiak wanted Bush up until the final week when he went back and watched film on both and changed his mind. Claimed Kubiak walked into Casserly's office and said he wanted to draft Mario. So WTF is up with changing the story now? Denver has picked allot of Defensive players high in the draft so the original story seemed to fit that Kubiak m ight have decieded to go Defense thinking he could scheme for lesser talent offensive players. Has the General decided he can tell the truth now or has he forgotten his original story?

WWJD
09-07-2007, 05:18 PM
The story I heard was that they offered a contract to Reggie..he turned it down. They didn't want a contract problem so they decided to offer it to Mario which of course he signed.

nunusguy
09-07-2007, 05:28 PM
This is a subject which never stops giving it would seem, and its gonna be fun to see how people would draft the class of 2006 in bout 3 years ?
Right now I kinda expect the 3 QBs (VY, Cutler, & Leinert) will be the top 3 and after that who knows, but I suspect that one or more of the other backs, Drew-Jones or Addai or Maroney, will be ranked ahead of Bush.
Bush certainly was a first round value, but where I dunno ?

JohnsonFan
09-07-2007, 05:41 PM
Bush is not a bust wow guys come on he had a great rookie year(better than mario atleast). Over time Duece will leave and reggie will be starting that will be the real test.

Htownsportsfan
09-07-2007, 05:55 PM
Bush is not a bust wow guys come on he had a great rookie year(better than mario atleast). Over time Duece will leave and reggie will be starting that will be the real test.

He had a good year not great! He was more of a receiver than a RB and he was only the second best rookie receiver on the team.

The way the money and expectations have gotten out of control for top 3 picks it will soon be a rare occurence for a player to live up to expectations.

GuerillaBlack
09-07-2007, 06:34 PM
Bush is not a bust wow guys come on he had a great rookie year(better than mario atleast). Over time Duece will leave and reggie will be starting that will be the real test.

Deuce will be gone in like seven years. The guy is only 27 I believe.

Double Barrel
09-07-2007, 07:19 PM
The way the money and expectations have gotten out of control for top 3 picks it will soon be a rare occurence for a player to live up to expectations.

I disagree.

Signed,

Vince Young
OROY, Pro Bowler, Madden cover

:shades:

fredaustex
09-07-2007, 08:06 PM
The story I heard was that they offered a contract to Reggie..he turned it down. They didn't want a contract problem so they decided to offer it to Mario which of course he signed.

There is a lot to that. There is no reason that the number one pick in the draft should not have a deal done before the draft actually happens. Just take a look at the Raiders. The season has started and they're still dealing with a holdout...

BattleRedToro
09-07-2007, 08:39 PM
I disagree.

Signed,

Vince Young
OROY, Pro Bowler, Madden cover

:shades:

DB

VY was a ProBowl alternate, Maurice Jones-Drew deserved the OROY more, and the Madden cover is about making EA Sports money. After VY won the OROY it became apparent to me that it was just a popularity contest and not based on their actual play.

Second Honeymoon
09-07-2007, 08:51 PM
DB

VY was a ProBowl alternate, Maurice Jones-Drew deserved the OROY more, and the Madden cover is about making EA Sports money. After VY won the OROY it became apparent to me that it was just a popularity contest and not based on their actual play.

so a backup RB deserved OROY more than a starting QB that helped lead his team to an unprecedented 8 straight wins after the team started the season 0-5? whatever man, your anti-VY bias leaves you with little credibility in issues regarding Vince.

You are 100% correct that VY was a Pro Bowl alternate and WAS NOT one of the Top 3 QBs in the AFC. The OROY was well deserved and prudent. As far as Madden 2008 goes....who cares? It's a damn video game.

VY had a great rookie campaign. I ain't crowning the guy but to say a backup RB deserved OROY over a starting QB that made many many plays that turned the tide of games is just pure drivel.

BattleRedToro
09-07-2007, 09:20 PM
so a backup RB deserved OROY more than a starting QB that helped lead his team to an unprecedented 8 straight wins after the team started the season 0-5? whatever man, your anti-VY bias leaves you with little credibility in issues regarding Vince.

You are 100% correct that VY was a Pro Bowl alternate and WAS NOT one of the Top 3 QBs in the AFC. The OROY was well deserved and prudent. As far as Madden 2008 goes....who cares? It's a damn video game.

VY had a great rookie campaign. I ain't crowning the guy but to say a backup RB deserved OROY over a starting QB that made many many plays that turned the tide of games is just pure drivel.

He may have been a backup but 941 yds rushing at 5.7 ypc with 13 rushing TD's and 436 yds recieving at 9.5 ypr with 2 recieving TD's is better than any statline that you can throw out there for Vince Young. Also, your claim of an 8 game winning streak is patently false. The Titans started the season 0-3 with Kerry Collins as the starter. Then, Vince Young became the starter and the Titans continued to lose their next 2 games. Next they won 2 games and then lost 2 more. Finally they had a 6 game winning streak that was ended by a clutch perfomance by the perpetual winner Vince Young against the New England Patriots that cost them their chance to make the playoffs. Check your facts next time before you rant at me.

Htownsportsfan
09-07-2007, 09:56 PM
I disagree.

Signed,

Vince Young
OROY, Pro Bowler, Madden cover

:shades:


The Titans won a lot of games and VY always gets all the credit cause he was the leader. But exactly how much of his leading do think influenced that genius Pac Mac who damn near single handedly won them two games including one in which the defense returned multiple turn overs for touchdowns and VY threw for 87 yards. In my opinion which is worth nothing to anyone but me is that VY got way to much credit for the Titans turn around last year. He did pull some typical heroics but a Jeff Fisher team will not just lay down and die so improvement during the years was inevitable.

The Dream
09-07-2007, 10:32 PM
it was one game...............Reggie > Mario.....Reggie > the majority of the rookies last season.........Reggie = a difference maker.......he's not an every down back, but he is a threat as a runner and receiver.......

bah007
09-07-2007, 10:36 PM
The Titans won a lot of games and VY always gets all the credit cause he was the leader. But exactly how much of his leading do think influenced that genius Pac Mac who damn near single handedly won them two games including one in which the defense returned multiple turn overs for touchdowns and VY threw for 87 yards. In my opinion which is worth nothing to anyone but me is that VY got way to much credit for the Titans turn around last year. He did pull some typical heroics but a Jeff Fisher team will not just lay down and die so improvement during the years was inevitable.

As Texans fans, we of all people should know that QB's get way too much credit for a win & way too much blame for a loss.

I really dont think that VY's case is any different. If the Titans win, its because he is such a great leader & if they lose, its because he cant throw & hes a run-first QB.

whiskeyrbl
09-07-2007, 10:42 PM
luckily for you guys, i'm taking a year off as far as the draft goes. life is going fast now, there's a kid on the way (yes, a li'l kastofsna), getting a house, new opportunities at work...just don't have the time or energy to focus on the college game as much.

but i'll still be here, don't worry. :heart:

Congrats.... Get ready for :wild:

The Dream
09-07-2007, 10:43 PM
VY = the reason the Titans did good last year and the reason why some are picking them as a playoff team...........even without Pacman Jones...............VY = the real deal

whiskeyrbl
09-07-2007, 10:47 PM
Bush is not a bust wow guys come on he had a great rookie year(better than mario atleast). Over time Duece will leave and reggie will be starting that will be the real test.
Apples and Oranges... Can't compare Defensive stats to Offensive stats

JohnsonFan
09-07-2007, 10:54 PM
true true but not comparing stats just how well the person did at their position

The Dream
09-07-2007, 10:57 PM
but seriously how do people expect him to have "great" rushing numbers when he isn't even the primary back????....I'm sorry but if we could have Reggie Bush on this team right now I'd take him in a heart beat!!!

the wonger need food
09-07-2007, 11:21 PM
VY = the reason the Titans did good last year and the reason why some are picking them as a playoff team...........even without Pacman Jones...............VY = the real deal


Their defense, offensive, Travis Henry and kicker played bigger roles. Vince made a few big plays but he was hardly "the reason".

VY= a running QB and an unknown commodity.

the wonger need food
09-07-2007, 11:23 PM
but seriously how do people expect him to have "great" rushing numbers when he isn't even the primary back????....I'm sorry but if we could have Reggie Bush on this team right now I'd take him in a heart beat!!!

Huh??? An indicator of a running back's productivity is Yards Per Carry. Reggie's is not good compared to average NFL running backs.

JohnsonFan
09-07-2007, 11:37 PM
but seriously how do people expect him to have "great" rushing numbers when he isn't even the primary back????....I'm sorry but if we could have Reggie Bush on this team right now I'd take him in a heart beat!!! lol what team would not, even if used at a situational back like reggie is who wouldnt want him, the texans made a big mistake when not taking him!

The Dream
09-07-2007, 11:47 PM
Their defense, offensive, Travis Henry and kicker played bigger roles. Vince made a few big plays but he was hardly "the reason".

VY= a running QB and an unknown commodity.

LOL......you guys are so funny.....take VY off that team last year and their record drops........it's as simple as that...

Huh??? An indicator of a running back's productivity is Yards Per Carry. Reggie's is not good compared to average NFL running backs.

but one of those reasons is because of the few attempts that he does get........the only way I could make a "fair" assesment about Bush's running game is if he got more carries....

gg no re
09-08-2007, 12:28 AM
Bush might get more carries if he would run smarter or run tougher.

bah007
09-08-2007, 12:33 AM
LOL......you guys are so funny.....take VY off that team last year and their record drops........it's as simple as that...



but one of those reasons is because of the few attempts that he does get........the only way I could make a "fair" assesment about Bush's running game is if he got more carries....

Bush did have 155 carries last year (about 10 per game) & his YPC was only 3.6 & his longest run was only 18 yards. Not very good value there at all.

28 punt returns for only a 7.7 yard average. Not very good value there either.

His only real value to the Saints is as a WR. 88 catches but still only an 8 yard average.

Bush had plenty of touches last year. He just didnt deliver as advertised.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 12:39 AM
yeah, people look at Bush as a gamebreaker. but he hasn't broken anything at all yet.

bah007
09-08-2007, 12:45 AM
Of the 41 players last year who got 6.25 carries per game or more, Bush was tied for last place with Jamal Lewis & Shaun Alexander with 3.6 YPC.

Of the 31 players last year who returned at least 1 punt per game, Bush 25th place with 7.7 yards per return. Last place was Chris Gamble with a 5.1 average.

Bush was 10th in the NFL with 88 catches last year. Andre Johnson was 1st with 103. But Bush's 8.4 yards per catch wasnt even in the top 50 in the NFC & I cant even find where he ranks in the entire league.

That's just some stats I found for anybody who was interested.

Wolf
09-08-2007, 12:53 AM
Sure, Boz had one of the great years ever for a college front seven player. Emtmen was a beast. What I didn't say was that having a great College year equates to being a beat in the pros....what I did say was that nobody considered Mario's SR season as awesome as stated in this thread. I stand behind that statement.....Mario's year wasn't considered all that outstanding.

I think his sr season was horrendous, I don't know how he could have been drafted #1 overall no tackles no sacks no nothing,heck didn't make the team :joker:

I am just kidding with you vinny on that



The scouts may have gone to the 2004 game between Florida State and North Carolina State to see Alex Barron, the Seminoles’ all-everything senior offensive tackle, but they left talking about Mario Williams, the Wolfpack’s sophomore defensive end. Williams embarrassed Barron, who would be selected 19th overall in the 2005 draft, for three sacks and a total of five tackles for loss that day.

Williams has the long arms and explosive burst of a top speed rusher, but is also strong enough take on blockers and play the run. While he has gained over 30 lbs. in his college career, he still looks lean and should be able to comfortably carry even more weight. He has the speed and relentlessness to pursue and make plays all over the field. Williams is also agile enough to drop into coverage when a zone blitz is called.

Williams has had stages in which he slipped into “read and react” mode instead of playing aggressively, such as early in the 2005 season. After NC State coach Chuck Amato urged Williams to “cut it loose,” the defensive end racked up 13.5 sacks in the final seven games. Williams may do too much thinking again early in his pro career as until the mental aspects of the NFL game become second nature to him.

Williams is ideally suited for either end position in a 4-3 defense. He should be the first defensive lineman selected in the 2006 draft.


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/draft/2006/prospects/williamsm.html

that read and react might be what some on here are considering "lazy"

all jokes aside.

seriously, I hope Mario develops and learns the attack mode. I think Bush will be fine. Time will tell if he can live up to what label the media put on him, but a steep climb

But as Texan fans (and in human nature in general.), this backlash should have been known that it was coming. We all have heard from every posible source whether it was espin,foxnews,cbs sportsline,other fans, everyone about how the Texans screwed up by taking MW over the other guys and when the other guys mess up(even if it is just one game), we want to hear how everyone will "crawdad" and mario hopefully will help even the score with a solid season . Media created this backlash with the hype,

what I mean by crawdad, is hopefully mario proves them wrong and espin and others start backing up in defense mode like a crawdad
http://www.austincahills.com/blog/archives/images/CrawfishGuard.jpg

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 01:12 AM
LOL......you guys are so funny.....take VY off that team last year and their record drops........it's as simple as that...

but one of those reasons is because of the few attempts that he does get........the only way I could make a "fair" assesment about Bush's running game is if he got more carries....


Take away Travis Henry, Pacman and Baronis and their record drops.... it's just as simple. Running quarterbacks can't win championships in the NFL... that's pretty simple too.


Fair assesment of Bush's running game? How many excuses are you going to make for this guy? He was a major factor in costing them the game last night because they kept going to him and he kept failing. If he gets more touches the Colts might have had time to score 70.

kiwitexansfan
09-08-2007, 01:18 AM
Of the 41 players last year who got 6.25 carries per game or more, Bush was tied for last place with Jamal Lewis & Shaun Alexander with 3.6 YPC.

Of the 31 players last year who returned at least 1 punt per game, Bush 25th place with 7.7 yards per return. Last place was Chris Gamble with a 5.1 average.

Bush was 10th in the NFL with 88 catches last year. Andre Johnson was 1st with 103. But Bush's 8.4 yards per catch wasnt even in the top 50 in the NFC & I cant even find where he ranks in the entire league.

That's just some stats I found for anybody who was interested.

How dare your bring facts into a slanging match.

I will throw my lot in with VY and Bush as being over rated as of now.

I would take Bush over VY but Mario over both of them.

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 03:59 AM
*change of pace*

1.
Cleveland Cavaliers</B>
LeBron James (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/JamesLeBron.html), F, St. Vincent-St. Mary's HS
2.
Detroit Pistons (from Memphis)</B>
Darko Milicic (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/MilicicDarko.html), F/C, Serbia and Montenegro
3.
Denver Nuggets</B>
Carmelo Anthony (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/AnthonyCarmelo.html), F, Syracuse
4.
Toronto Raptors</B>
Chris Bosh (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/BoshChris.html), F, Georgia Tech
5.
Miami Heat</B>
Dwyane Wade (http://www.nba.com/draft2003/profiles/WadeDwyane.html), G, Marquette



http://www.nba.com/draft2003/board.html

In 2003 Detroit passed on Carmelo, Bosh, AND D. Wade to take a guy who is no longer with their team.

They later went on the appear in two NBA finals winning one of them.

The guys we passed on don't matter. Winning is what makes people forget about a percieved "bad draft pick".

This was from the second page I think but I just wanted to say this is a great post. I'm never going to rag on Houston for passing on Bush or VY (but thanks :shades: ) because there's no way to tell whats going to happen. (Don't take that as me saying Williams is a bust)

Good post :splits:

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 04:15 AM
I would take Bush over VY but Mario over both of them.

You mean now knowing how they performed in their rookie seasons or back at the time of the draft?


Easy question either way... why?

Keep in mind, if you mean at the time of that draft, Carr would still be your quarterback, you would not have Ahman Green in the backfield but instead a Dominick Davis who is hurt and a defensive line full of high picks who have all dissapointed.

If you mean now then you would want Mario over Reggie Bush, again going off of what they've shown so far? I understand there is no need for VY now that Schaub is there but I can't understand why you wouldn't want a guy like Reggie Bush on your team.

I'm not grilling ya I'm just wondering

BattleRedToro
09-08-2007, 06:24 AM
You mean now knowing how they performed in their rookie seasons or back at the time of the draft?


Easy question either way... why?

Keep in mind, if you mean at the time of that draft, Carr would still be your quarterback, you would not have Ahman Green in the backfield but instead a Dominick Davis who is hurt and a defensive line full of high picks who have all dissapointed.

If you mean now then you would want Mario over Reggie Bush, again going off of what they've shown so far? I understand there is no need for VY now that Schaub is there but I can't understand why you wouldn't want a guy like Reggie Bush on your team.

I'm not grilling ya I'm just wondering

I think Reggie Bush will have a career very similar to Eric Metcalf. Now, there would be nothing wrong with that except that to have him the Texans would have had to draft him #1 Overall. Even if the NFL didn't have a salary cap, I wouldn't like that because a player like that can be acquired much lower in the draft, such as the 3rd Round or possibly lower, and the opportunity cost of drafting a player 1st Overall with the type of abilities that can be had in the 3rd Round is too high when there are other players available that have the type of abilities that won't be available at the end of the 1st Round, much less in the 3rd Round. When you add to this the concept of the salary cap and the fact that he will be paid an inordinately high percentage of a team's salary cap it only makes the idea of drafting him that high even more unattractive to me. Now, if Reggie Bush becomes a Free Agent for a reasonable salary for his production then of course I would love for the Texans to have him. I just don't want the Texans to make anymore bad salary cap moves like they have in the past. Of course, there still remains the possibility that I am wrong about Reggie Bush and he me have a more productive career then I am predicting. Only time will tell. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1sRTbpqh-E&mode=related&search=)

Grams
09-08-2007, 07:12 AM
I am not a Reggie Bush fan, have never really been one.
Watching his college highlights film, he was an exciting player. But that was college not the NFL. Could he fit into Kubiacks offensive running scheme or does he "free Lance" too much to have helped the Texans last year.

Bush looked kind of lost out on the field Thursday, looked very unsure of himself, uncertain of where to run and Indy did an excellent job on tackling. Sign of things to come this year?

I like the 3rd round pick of the Texans this year and think we will see more highlights of Jacoby Jones than Reggie Bush this year.

aj.
09-08-2007, 07:58 AM
RB25 is a playmaker and as someone else said above, I'd take him in a minute. He's a great complementary weapon with crazy skills when you're able to get him the ball in space.

However, if the Texans (or any other team for that matter) had him, they would still need a RB that can take it inside 15+ times per game because that's not his game, and from the looks of things (this year, last year, USC,...) it may never be.

If RB is on your team, you still need a guy like Deuce around to keep defenses honest inside and focused on something other than just hammering the QB. Without Deuce (or any other RB like him) you forfeit most of the play action section in your playbook.

Some might be surprised how many different combinations of plays are set up by a single play action fake to a RB like an Ahman Green or a Deuce McAllister.

Imagine if the Texans took Bush and were trying to use him as a primary RB. He would be gaining his 3.5 or whatever per carry but Texans fans would be blaming the o-line and screaming for John Benton's head.

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2007, 09:06 AM
Bush has been good for the NO community as he created some buzz by putting fans in the seats and then the rest of the Saints amplified it by playing some terrific football.

I get the feeling this is going to be like a sugar high as those fans will be coming down hard when results fall off and the realization comes that three players in the backfield account for ~28m of a 109m cap this year.

I believe Brees got a whopping 12m roster bonus this year as it was structured in his contract in 2006 and has four years left on his contract at 10m per. Deuce has five years left on his ~8.2m per and Reginald has four years left on his 10+m per.

In essence almost 28m or 26% of your money is wrapped up in three players in your backfield. If this team goes south, and RB does not perform, the fragile comforting high that this city has been on will come crashing down.

Thankfully we stayed away from the bright and shiny thing that was RB.

DBCooper
09-08-2007, 09:09 AM
but seriously how do people expect him to have "great" rushing numbers when he isn't even the primary back????....I'm sorry but if we could have Reggie Bush on this team right now I'd take him in a heart beat!!!


Yeah, but would you trade him straight up for Jacoby?

I'm with Grams on this one, I think Jacoby will be a more electrifying player this year.

The1ApplePie
09-08-2007, 10:05 AM
Apples and Oranges... Can't compare Defensive stats to Offensive stats

No you can't, but you can compare good play to crap play

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2007, 10:17 AM
No you can't, but you can compare good play to crap play

You really have no idea what you are talking about and it is getting frustrating.

nunusguy
09-08-2007, 10:25 AM
Anybody catch the ESPN guys yesterday after the Indy-Saints game ?
They are so obvious, as they talked about the game but avoided Bush's name
like it was the plague, no doubt because of his dismal performance. Yet soon, in the next few weeks probably he'll have another game with a high-light play or 2 and the "Around-The-Horn"/PTI crews will be trumpeting Bush's name again as if he has a preemptive claim on HOF membership.

Second Honeymoon
09-08-2007, 10:26 AM
He may have been a backup but 941 yds rushing at 5.7 ypc with 13 rushing TD's and 436 yds recieving at 9.5 ypr with 2 recieving TD's is better than any statline that you can throw out there for Vince Young. Also, your claim of an 8 game winning streak is patently false. The Titans started the season 0-3 with Kerry Collins as the starter. Then, Vince Young became the starter and the Titans continued to lose their next 2 games. Next they won 2 games and then lost 2 more. Finally they had a 6 game winning streak that was ended by a clutch perfomance by the perpetual winner Vince Young against the New England Patriots that cost them their chance to make the playoffs. Check your facts next time before you rant at me.

i need to lay off the hippie lettuce on Sundays it looks like....could have swore it was 8 in a row. OROY went to VY and it was justified. He had a winning record as a starter which is unheard of for most rookie QBs on bad teams. Drew had some big plays too but in a backup role. VY was FAR more impressive but simple jealousy and college allegiances can muddy all that up for someone.

that being said....Starting QB >>>> Backup RB any day of the week

Bush is a product of hype, VY was a product of anti-hype. Remember how people were slamming his game and his test scores? He was thrown into the fire of a sinking ship and HELPED to lift it up with his impressive play, his uncanny nack on 3rd down and in the 4th quarter, and with his unquestionable drive and determination. His leadership didn't hurt either but that has been driven into the ground even by the anti-hype machine.

The Madden cover is hype..that should be Peyton every year
The OROY was earned and well earned I might add...backup RBs should never get a sniff....and they dont.

Second Honeymoon
09-08-2007, 10:31 AM
that game Thursday wasn't about RB playing bad, it was about the Saints being the Saints. The real Saints are back and things are once again right in the world.

now take your criminals err evacuees back to New Orleans and stay there

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2007, 10:37 AM
that game Thursday wasn't about RB playing bad, it was about the Saints being the Saints. The real Saints are back and things are once again right in the world.

It may not have been, but dollars spent on low valued productive goods will come back to bite you overtly or covertly, quickly. The Saints have a favorable schedule on paper. Should they lose early I would expect that locker room to blow up and be channeled in a certain direction.

I wish Joe Horn was still there, he is a great fire starter.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 10:38 AM
Anybody catch the ESPN guys yesterday after the Indy-Saints game ?
They are so obvious, as they talked about the game but avoided Bush's name
like it was the plague, no doubt because of his dismal performance. Yet soon, in the next few weeks probably he'll have another game with a high-light play or 2 and the "Around-The-Horn"/PTI crews will be trumpeting Bush's name again as if he has a preemptive claim on HOF membership.
yup, that's how it works. and i don't know why they give him a special pass. see, the thing about ESPN is, that they will take certain guys and hype them up like crazy. BUT they will also be extra-hard on those guys when they aren't playing up to the hype. think Tiger Woods, Peyton Manning, LeBron James, etc...they hyped them up tremendously over the years, but in the case of Tiger Woods, there was plenty of "is he slumping?" talk, and with Manning, everyone always added the footnote "but can he win the big one?" and we all remember the nonsense about James during the NBA playoffs.

but with Bush, they're trying extra hard to bury all of that.

they also did the same with Vick. of course, once he got into huge legal trouble, they didn't have much of a choice, and turned 180 on him pronto.

The Dream
09-08-2007, 11:25 AM
Take away Travis Henry, Pacman and Baronis and their record drops.... it's just as simple. Running quarterbacks can't win championships in the NFL... that's pretty simple too.


VY = more than a running QB...he's a QB who "can" run......the bottom line is VY had more of an impact than any of those guys you listed....mainly because he's the QB.

I understand there is no need for VY now that Schaub is there

:laughjump:

nunusguy
09-08-2007, 11:46 AM
yup, that's how it works. and i don't know why they give him a special pass. see

Dang Kastofsna, I'm surprised you'd ask that question because my impression of you is that of an astute observer of the NFL scene.
Plain & simple its Business. Bush now appears to have more commercial endorsements than any other player in the NFL after only Peyton Manning himself. And many of those corporate entities that Bush does commercials for
are also ESPN sponsers and it therefor behooves ESPN to enhance and protect the visibility and credibility of advertsement presentations by its corporate sponsers. Afterall, be it a company that markets athletic-shoes or sandwiches, they want a winner and not a loser/bust hustling their procducts on TV.

GuerillaBlack
09-08-2007, 11:55 AM
DB

VY was a ProBowl alternate, Maurice Jones-Drew deserved the OROY more, and the Madden cover is about making EA Sports money. After VY won the OROY it became apparent to me that it was just a popularity contest and not based on their actual play.

VY wasn't even the first choice. LT was. LT declined to be on the cover.

The Dream
09-08-2007, 12:19 PM
who cares if he wasn't the first choice, lol......VY proved to be the real deal his rookie season...point blank period.

Wolf
09-08-2007, 12:26 PM
who cares if he wasn't the first choice, lol......VY proved to be the real deal his rookie season...point blank period.

how?

Vinny
09-08-2007, 12:28 PM
how?
good god some of you guys must be blind...if you just watched our games you can see how he personally handed us our asses to us on a stick. This isn't a game of pretty boys looking good and piling up kewl stats..it's about who has the most points at the end of the game.

The Dream
09-08-2007, 12:32 PM
how?

http://www.metalworx.iwarp.com/images/youre-retarded.jpg

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 12:36 PM
who cares if he wasn't the first choice, lol......VY proved to be the real deal his rookie season...point blank period.

He proved that he can run, that's about it. He won't be able to do that his entire career. Randall Cunningham didn't win a single championship and he had a better arm and was on better teams.

The Dream
09-08-2007, 12:53 PM
He proved that he can run, that's about it. He won't be able to do that his entire career. Randall Cunningham didn't win a single championship and he had a better arm and was on better teams.

he was a rookie adjusting to the NFL game and he did a fine job....there are rarely any rookie QBs who have a good of year as Vince.

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 01:19 PM
I think Reggie Bush will have a career very similar to Eric Metcalf. Now, there would be nothing wrong with that except that to have him the Texans would have had to draft him #1 Overall. Even if the NFL didn't have a salary cap, I wouldn't like that because a player like that can be acquired much lower in the draft, such as the 3rd Round or possibly lower, and the opportunity cost of drafting a player 1st Overall with the type of abilities that can be had in the 3rd Round is too high when there are other players available that have the type of abilities that won't be available at the end of the 1st Round, much less in the 3rd Round. When you add to this the concept of the salary cap and the fact that he will be paid an inordinately high percentage of a team's salary cap it only makes the idea of drafting him that high even more unattractive to me. Now, if Reggie Bush becomes a Free Agent for a reasonable salary for his production then of course I would love for the Texans to have him. I just don't want the Texans to make anymore bad salary cap moves like they have in the past. Of course, there still remains the possibility that I am wrong about Reggie Bush and he me have a more productive career then I am predicting. Only time will tell. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1sRTbpqh-E&mode=related&search=)

I'll take that... good answer

awtysst
09-08-2007, 02:18 PM
Michael Smith is the only person who deserves to be on television. He has my vote for Supreme Commander of Football Knowledge.

I go to Michael Smith for my football related news.

disaacks3
09-08-2007, 02:45 PM
He proved that he can run, that's about it. He won't be able to do that his entire career. Randall Cunningham didn't win a single championship and he had a better arm and was on better teams.

Having Cunningham as your QB would never be considered a busted pick. The expectations for VY are so far beyond those of RC...and it's a shame. He's been 'anointed' FAR too early. I'd like to see him develop as something more than the one-trick pony displayed thus far.

It's not a matter of denial, or of being "blind"...some of us actually think that Matt Lineart was the best rookie QB last year.

Wolf
09-08-2007, 02:47 PM
Having Cunningham as your QB would never be considered a busted pick. The expectations for VY are so far beyond those of RC...and it's a shame. He's been 'anointed' FAR too early. I'd like to see him develop as something more than the one-trick pony displayed thus far.

It's not a matter of denial, or of being "blind"

that is basically what i am saying


I give Vince more credit to leading his team than the guy they say did in N.O.

that is not a bash on either rookies.
I feel Pac-Man had a big influence on the return game and on defense..VY has the knack of making drive continuing plays just like he did at UT
I feel Brees had a huge impact on N.O. and with duece pounding it , and for defenses to account for Bush's potential explosiveness. opened up Colston who was dynomite and continued to be dynomite until injured

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 03:22 PM
he was a rookie adjusting to the NFL game and he did a fine job....there are rarely any rookie QBs who have a good of year as Vince.


You consider a 51% passer rating with more INT's than TD's and a passer rating of 66.7 a good year? Not to mention 12 fumbles. I guess you don't look far past ESPN for your NFL football research.

Bruce Gradkowski had almost the same stats. Leinart and Cutler were statistically better than Young.

But don't let your blind love for players get in the way of reality.

The Dream
09-08-2007, 03:38 PM
You consider a 51% passer rating with more INT's than TD's and a passer rating of 66.7 a good year? Not to mention 12 fumbles. I guess you don't look far past ESPN for your NFL football research.

Bruce Gradkowski had almost the same stats. Leinart and Cutler were statistically better than Young.

But don't let your blind love for players get in the way of reality

he was a ROOKIE!!!....you act like he was supposed to have a career year or something...you listed all the negative things about him, but stayed away from all the good he brought to his football team........and he can still get better.

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 03:46 PM
he was a ROOKIE!!!.

So were the other 3 guys that I listed. You believe he had this great year but in reality he was the 3rd or 4th best rookie QB in the draft class.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 05:28 PM
gradkowski SUCKED, young was faarrrr better.

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 06:00 PM
gradkowski SUCKED, young was faarrrr better.

Statistically... no.

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 06:12 PM
OK I'll bite...

Leinart: Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Edgerrin James (down year) mediocre defense

Cutler: Javon Walker, Rod Smith, dominate running game and defense

Young: Drew Bennett, Bobby Wade, 5th in the league in rushing and last in total defense.


I'll play the supporting cast card on this one. And I think most sane Titans fans will acknowledge that VY was the least pro-ready QB in that draft so his struggles are not a surprise. VY did more with less then Leinart and Cutler (cliche but you get the picture)... and forget Gradkowski. If he was the real deal they wouldn't have snagged Jeff Garcia.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 06:13 PM
gradkowski's final 4 games of last season was some of the most inept and awful QB play i've ever seen.

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 06:17 PM
I'll play the supporting cast card on this one.


You guys always have excuses. It doesn't matter who Young's receivers are, he won't get them the ball. Why do you think no high-profile WR's wanted to sign with Possum Holler and all of last year's receivers signed with other teams. Chatanooga is career-killer if you're a wide receiver.... as long as your running QB is there.

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 06:18 PM
gradkowski's final 4 games of last season was some of the most inept and awful QB play i've ever seen.

And yet he still almost finished on par with Vince Young with regards to statistics. What does that tell you?

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 06:33 PM
It's an excuse but its reasonable. Excuse the company for a second, I'm not trying to group VY with these guys just making a point.

Joe Montana/Steve Young..... Jerry Rice
Peyton Manning.... Marvin Harrison
Troy Aikman...... Michael Irvin
Jim Kelly...... Andre Reed
Dan Marino....... Mark Clayton
Dan Fouts..... Charlie Joyner
Terry bradshaw..... Lynn Swan

Vince Young..... Bobby Wade?

My point is every great QB had his go-to, reliable guy on the outside (in some cases they had two). Give Vince someone that will be consistent, that will grow with him as a player and be his safety net.

To say the supporting cast thing isn't important is kind of funny to me. Barry Sanders, arguably the best running back in history, played on a dismal Detroit team for ten years..... his playoff record during his career? 1-6. A supporting cast is a important to anyone's success in this league.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 06:33 PM
And yet he still almost finished on par with Vince Young with regards to statistics. What does that tell you?
that it's hard to tell bad QB's apart by just looking at their statistics.

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 06:38 PM
You guys are going to come up with every excuse in the book for these guys so there's really no reason to carry it any farther. I guess that's a characteristic of sports fans.... reality will always be skewed towards the people that you want to see succeed.

Bulluck53
09-08-2007, 06:44 PM
Man this is a message board. It's here for this exact thing. If you want we can just call each other names all day.

We have different opinions... ha thats the beauty of it. I enjoy talking football and expressing my opinion. Is my opinion bias? Hell yea it is, but its the same for you and everyone on this board.

I'll be the first to tell you that as a Titans fan I fear Young, the passer. 51% completion is pathetic for anybody but theres a reason for everything. I believe his stats last year were an effect of a bad supporting cast, as well as his own problems that he seemed to have worked on throughout the summer.

Damn I'm glad football season is back...

bah007
09-08-2007, 09:12 PM
You consider a 51% passer rating with more INT's than TD's and a passer rating of 66.7 a good year? Not to mention 12 fumbles. I guess you don't look far past ESPN for your NFL football research.

Bruce Gradkowski had almost the same stats. Leinart and Cutler were statistically better than Young.

But don't let your blind love for players get in the way of reality.

It's kinda hard to have 12 fumbles when the league leader was Andrew Walter with 7.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=rush&sort=fum&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

Young had 6.

D-ReK
09-08-2007, 09:19 PM
The media is a fickle friend, and after being built up as being the next great thing, it will likely crush him when every media outlet begins turning on him and the only source left that can spin his occasional 9 yard gain as being "tantalizing" is the Saints' official site. I almost feel sorry for him...almost.

disaacks3
09-08-2007, 09:29 PM
It's kinda hard to have 12 fumbles when the league leader was Andrew Walter with 7.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=rush&sort=fum&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

Young had 6.Not according to the NFL (http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/profile?id=YOU617196)

the wonger need food
09-08-2007, 09:55 PM
Yeah, I'll trust the NFL's stats over ESPiN's. The problem is all of these brainwashed people only listen to what ESPN tells them and don't bother to do their own independent research.

bah007
09-08-2007, 10:29 PM
With all the trash people on this board say about ESPN, I seriously doubt that anybody is brainwashed by their talking heads.

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 10:37 PM
i like the people who think EVERYTHING espn says is a lie.

edo783
09-08-2007, 10:45 PM
:spy: :spy: i like the people who think EVERYTHING espn says is a lie.

Soooo, your saying it isn't? Orrrrr, are you saying it is?:spy:

kastofsna
09-08-2007, 10:50 PM
depends on your definition of "is"...:spy:

gg no re
09-08-2007, 11:42 PM
http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/apmegasports/200609241836224090766-pf.hmedium.jpg
"They is what we thought they is."

BattleRedToro
09-09-2007, 07:56 AM
It's an excuse but its reasonable. Excuse the company for a second, I'm not trying to group VY with these guys just making a point.

Joe Montana/Steve Young..... Jerry Rice
Peyton Manning.... Marvin Harrison
Troy Aikman...... Michael Irvin
Jim Kelly...... Andre Reed
Dan Marino....... Mark Clayton
Dan Fouts..... Charlie Joyner
Terry bradshaw..... Lynn Swan

Vince Young..... Bobby Wade?

My point is every great QB had his go-to, reliable guy on the outside (in some cases they had two). Give Vince someone that will be consistent, that will grow with him as a player and be his safety net.

To say the supporting cast thing isn't important is kind of funny to me. Barry Sanders, arguably the best running back in history, played on a dismal Detroit team for ten years..... his playoff record during his career? 1-6. A supporting cast is a important to anyone's success in this league.

I like how you conveniently left Tom Brady off of your list because he destroys your argument, as his supportimg cast prior to this year hasn't had a go-to guy and yet he has been the QB of a 3-time Super Bowl Championship team. The only QB on your list with more SuperBowl wins then him is Terry Bradshaw, and of course Troy Aikman and Joe Montana are tied with Tom Brady as well.

Second Honeymoon
09-09-2007, 08:59 AM
You consider a 51% passer rating with more INT's than TD's and a passer rating of 66.7 a good year? Not to mention 12 fumbles. I guess you don't look far past ESPN for your NFL football research.

Bruce Gradkowski had almost the same stats. Leinart and Cutler were statistically better than Young.

But don't let your blind love for players get in the way of reality.

you would think that someone who watched Carr fail for 5 years would realize that stats dont mean anything. its about winning and moving the chains. Can you deliver a game winning drive in the 4th quarter? can you make the big play on 3rd down when you HAVE to get the 1st down or lose? Vince can and guys with far superior stats and measurables CANT. Please look at the pathetic roster that the Titans have and you should be further impressed by what VY did last year. If he can do it this year, then his value and worth will continue to skyrocket because this year's Titans roster is a joke.

the anti-VY agenda is just laughable by some of you guys. I don't want Vince to succeed because he is in our division, just like Peyton. But anyone who thinks he sucks or had a bad year is just pathetic. I hope its mostly an anti-UT agenda because if some of you actually believe what you type, it just outs you as complete retards when it comes to football.

some of you guys probably still think Carr is better than VY...now that is just pathetic and sad

Giant Tiger
09-09-2007, 09:33 AM
Reggie is the product of not only a dominant USC lineage but of the sports media as well. I dislike the guy but feel for him as well. This kid was never going to be anything more than a scat back and a slot receiver yet the media put him on a pedistal with a HOF tag before his rookie season even started. It won't be long before Reggie is seen as just another one trick pony.

Here's to hoping Mario will bathe in Reggies spot-light on opening day. :victory:

I'm more impressed with Owen Daniels than Reggie Bush. Have to admit I wasn't happy when we picked him last year,:redface: but I love the pick now. Great to see our FO doesn't go by hype:yahoo:

Bulluck53
09-09-2007, 04:23 PM
I like how you conveniently left Tom Brady off of your list because he destroys your argument, as his supporting cast prior to this year hasn't had a go-to guy and yet he has been the QB of a 3-time Super Bowl Championship team.

Haha you're exactly right. But I didn't purposely leave him off I was going off of a website (I couldn't remembers all of the receivers names). But you are exactly right, Brady is the exception. I'm just making a point... I'll change it to MOST of the great QB's have/had a go-to guy.

TexansLucky13
09-09-2007, 04:25 PM
2007 Scoring -

Mario - 1 TD
Reggie - No TD

Wolf
09-09-2007, 04:27 PM
you would think that someone who watched Carr fail for 5 years would realize that stats dont mean anything. its about winning and moving the chains. Can you deliver a game winning drive in the 4th quarter? can you make the big play on 3rd down when you HAVE to get the 1st down or lose? Vince can and guys with far superior stats and measurables CANT. Please look at the pathetic roster that the Titans have and you should be further impressed by what VY did last year. If he can do it this year, then his value and worth will continue to skyrocket because this year's Titans roster is a joke.

the anti-VY agenda is just laughable by some of you guys. I don't want Vince to succeed because he is in our division, just like Peyton. But anyone who thinks he sucks or had a bad year is just pathetic. I hope its mostly an anti-UT agenda because if some of you actually believe what you type, it just outs you as complete retards when it comes to football.

some of you guys probably still think Carr is better than VY...now that is just pathetic and sad

I have to do a search, I don't know if anyone (realistically) said Carr was better.
I know I didn't, but I know some of the people you can't win

Carr would have bad stats and we win and people would say "wish we had a QB
Carr would had bad stats and we loss, they'd say ,wish we had a QB

Carr have good stats and we win, it was *pick a name* is the reason why

Carr have good stats and we lose, it was he didn't do enough

I guess we can officially change Carr's name with VY's name with all the arguments and counter arguments

Wolf
09-09-2007, 04:29 PM
Haha you're exactly right. But I didn't purposely leave him off I was going off of a website (I couldn't remembers all of the receivers names). But you are exactly right, Brady is the exception. I'm just making a point... I'll change it to MOST of the great QB's have/had a go-to guy.

Brady never had Capers as a head coach ( I have liked Capers as a defensive coordinator not as HC )

Norv Turner will probably prove me wrong this year, but my feelings on Norv is the same as capers ,except switch offense with defense

Bulluck53
09-09-2007, 04:37 PM
I'm sorry what is that supposed to be telling me?

Wolf
09-09-2007, 04:39 PM
I'm sorry what is that supposed to be telling me?

Capers had a way of ruining QB's LOL Collins and Carr LOL

I was making a joke and forgot the smiley
:doot:

Bulluck53
09-09-2007, 04:41 PM
Oh ok that went right over my head

TexanAddict
09-10-2007, 01:35 PM
2007 Scoring -

Mario - 1 TD
Reggie - No TD

Mario - 38 yds
Reggie - 38 yds

Mario - 2 sacks
Reggie - 0 sacks

the wonger need food
09-16-2007, 08:49 PM
Where are all of you Reggie Bust apologists tonight???

TheRealJoker
09-16-2007, 08:50 PM
"No way he has 2 bad games in a row."

Second Honeymoon
09-17-2007, 09:07 AM
The Saints are still the Saints. Things are back to normal.