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BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 06:57 AM
Last year Mario Williams was moved around on the Defensive Line, and this year the talk of the coaches is that he will remain at one position, Right Defensive End, throughout the year. This we all know.

In what position was Mario Williams lined up when he was most effective last year?

By effective, I don't just mean the easily measurable statistics like sacks and tackles, but also QB pressures and general disruption to the opposing offenses' play.

I wish I had the means to do this analysis myself but I don't have the games recorded. I would really appreciate it if those that have the games recorded could go back and review his play to determine this and then write their analysis here.

Texanmike02
08-21-2007, 07:30 AM
I'm on leave this week and have all but the cowboys and browns games to go through. I'll probably go through one from the first quarter of the year, one from the 2nd quarter and two from the 3rd and 4th quarters of the season. This is of course permission from the boss dependant.

Mike

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 07:37 AM
Cool.

Thanks

eriadoc
08-21-2007, 10:46 AM
He was over the opponent's right tackle when he blew up Eli Manning. He was over the team's right tackle when he got to Culpepper on back-to-back plays. He was over the opponent's right tackle when he played the Titans here in Houston and had a couple good plays.

I don't know if that's enough to say for sure, but I only remember him flashing when he was over the opponent's right tackle (sometimes with a TE on him as well).

real
08-21-2007, 10:50 AM
He was over the opponent's right tackle when he blew up Eli Manning. He was over the team's right tackle when he got to Culpepper on back-to-back plays. He was over the opponent's right tackle when he played the Titans here in Houston and had a couple good plays.

I don't know if that's enough to say for sure, but I only remember him flashing when he was over the opponent's right tackle (sometimes with a TE on him as well).

Yeah I was trying to find video on all of those plays...

I don't know if it was a coincidence or not, but I remember it as you do...

thunderkyss
08-21-2007, 10:56 AM
When we played the Cowboys, he made a couple of good plays on the right side(over the left tackle) that changed JJ's carries.. a couple ended in loss of yards(even though Mario didn't make the tackle), and there were a couple of no gainers.

When we went against the Jets, he punk'd D'brick from the right side as well.

I've seen Mario's ability to get into the backfield, and I don't doubt his abilities one bit. Even from the tackle position. What I question is is football IQ. He's looking to sack the QB when it's obviously a running situation, and he's chasing the RB when it's 3rd & long.


My Point, I'm a Mario fan, but I don't think it's a matter of where we put him, but him knowing where we want him to go.

thunderkyss
08-21-2007, 10:58 AM
That late hit on Eli was against their Left Tackle.

real
08-21-2007, 11:02 AM
That late hit on Eli was against their Left Tackle.

Think he was talking about the actual sack...which was against their RT...

And the play where he threw the the O-lineman into the RB was against their RT...

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 11:04 AM
When we played the Cowboys, he made a couple of good plays on the right side(over the left tackle) that changed JJ's carries.. a couple ended in loss of yards(even though Mario didn't make the tackle), and there were a couple of no gainers.

When we went against the Jets, he punk'd D'brick from the right side as well.

I've seen Mario's ability to get into the backfield, and I don't doubt his abilities one bit. Even from the tackle position. What I question is is football IQ. He's looking to sack the QB when it's obviously a running situation, and he's chasing the RB when it's 3rd & long.

My Point, I'm a Mario fan, but I don't think it's a matter of where we put him, but him knowing where we want him to go.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

real
08-21-2007, 11:07 AM
I've seen Mario's ability to get into the backfield, and I don't doubt his abilities one bit. Even from the tackle position. What I question is is football IQ. He's looking to sack the QB when it's obviously a running situation, and he's chasing the RB when it's 3rd & long.

Ummm....there were plenty of occasions where Mario was rushing the passer on passing situations and just plain couldn't get there...looked like he knew what was going on to me...

There was one play against the cardinals where he did a stunt inside and the RB stepped up and darn near buckled Mario to his knees...

I do admit that he looks confused at times, but I think there were plenty instances in which he was clearly trying to rush the passer but just did a poor job of doing so...I mean, how hard is it to recognize a passing situation ? How hard is it to see the O-lineman pass blocking? It's either one of two things...a draw..or a pass play...I heard the D-lineman get to call their own stunts, and I'm not sure how he is doing this if he's unaware of game situations...

Saying that it's his "football IQ" as the reason why he hasn't shown much is suggesting that there is a quick/easy/understandable fix....I've seen Mario go off as well, but I need to see a little more from the guy....I'm worried about our pass rush, because I just dread the day Anthony Weaver is put in the starting line-up as the other DE...Mario needs to do more...

Vinny
08-21-2007, 11:31 AM
Mario's skill set is of a strong side DE....the only reason we don't have him plugged in there is because Weaver may be less of a weak side edge rusher than Mario is and we invested a ton of jack in him...and in Mario. It sad, but we are still at the mercy of bad FA signings.

real
08-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Mario's skill set is of a strong side DE....the only reason we don't have him plugged in there is because Weaver may be less of a weak side edge rusher than Mario is and we invested a ton of jack in him...and in Mario. It sad, but we are still at the mercy of bad FA signings.

I agree 100%.

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 11:41 AM
Ummm....there were plenty of occasions where Mario was rushing the passer on passing situations and just plain couldn't get there...looked like he knew what was going on to me...

There was one play against the cardinals where he did a stunt inside and the RB stepped up and darn near buckled Mario to his knees...

I do admit that he looks confused at times, but I think there were plenty instances in which he was clearly trying to rush the passer but just did a poor job of doing so...I mean, how hard is it to recognize a passing situation ? How hard is it to see the O-lineman pass blocking? It's either one of two things...a draw..or a pass play...I heard the D-lineman get to call their own stunts, and I'm not sure how he is doing this if he's unaware of game situations...

Saying that it's his "football IQ" as the reason why he hasn't shown much is suggesting that there is a quick/easy/understandable fix....I've seen Mario go off as well, but I need to see a little more from the guy....I'm worried about our pass rush, because I just dread the day Anthony Weaver is put in the starting line-up as the other DE...Mario needs to do more...

Yeah i remember that play,:mad:

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 06:46 PM
Mario's skill set is of a strong side DE....the only reason we don't have him plugged in there is because Weaver may be less of a weak side edge rusher than Mario is and we invested a ton of jack in him...and in Mario. It sad, but we are still at the mercy of bad FA signings.

How much is Jason Babin being paid to sit? Is it more or less than Weaver is being paid? If Babin is being paid more then Weaver then some decent reporter should be a little tough with Coach Kubiak and GM Smith, and ask them why they don't play Babin at RDE , move Mario to LDE, and rotate Weaver in off of the bench.

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 06:52 PM
My point to this whole thread was that through analysis we might be able to derive a conclusion as to what position Mario was most productive at last year, and then the next question would be why he was most productive there. Finally, we might be able to present our conclusions in a form of questions to someone like John McClain. I really don't care who takes credit for it. I only want the Texans to put Mario in the position to perform his best, which should also make the entire defense perform their best.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2007, 06:56 PM
EDIT: The format here is: Name, Year signed through, Base salary, Allocated Bonus, 2007 Cap.


Weaver, Anthony 2010 $2,500,000 $1,206,720 $3,706,720
Williams, Mario 2011* $975,000 $2,406,720 $3,381,720
Johnson, Travis 2011 $435,000 $996,220 $1,431,220
Babin, Jason 2009 $735,503 $691,667 $1,427,170
Zgonina, Jeff 2008 $825,000 $131,720 $956,720
Maddox, Anthony 2007 $510,000 $31,720 $541,720
Kalu, N.D. 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Killings, Cedric 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Johnson, Thomas 2007 $435,000 $6,720 $441,720
Bulman, Tim 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Malone, Alfred 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Cochran, Earl 2007 $285,000 $6,720 $291,720

That's the defensive line except for Okoye.

From http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html

Vinny
08-21-2007, 07:02 PM
EDIT: The format here is: Name, Year signed through, Base salary, Allocated Bonus, 2007 Cap.


Weaver, Anthony 2010 $2,500,000 $1,206,720 $3,706,720
Williams, Mario 2011* $975,000 $2,406,720 $3,381,720
Johnson, Travis 2011 $435,000 $996,220 $1,431,220
Babin, Jason 2009 $735,503 $691,667 $1,427,170
Zgonina, Jeff 2008 $825,000 $131,720 $956,720
Maddox, Anthony 2007 $510,000 $31,720 $541,720
Kalu, N.D. 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Killings, Cedric 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Johnson, Thomas 2007 $435,000 $6,720 $441,720
Bulman, Tim 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Malone, Alfred 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Cochran, Earl 2007 $285,000 $6,720 $291,720

That's the defensive line except for Okoye.

From http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html

The * on Mario's number...

*Note: The Texans will likely exercise a $12 million option bonus on Mario Williams' contract. Per ESPN.com, this will lower his future years' salaries as follows: $975,000 (2007), $1.575 million (2008), $2.3 million (2009) and $3.025 million (2010) and add the 2011 season at a base salary of $3.725 million. Also from the report: "Williams can void the final two years of the deal based on playing time levels and if he and the team reach certain predetermined performance levels, but the Texans then have a right to buy back the voided 2010 and 2011 seasons at a cost of $8.5 million. There are plenty of incentives, like $125,000 in most years for leading the league in sacks, bonuses for honors and playoff victories, and escalators that can raise the base salaries in 2010 and 2011 by $6 million and $9.5 million, respectively."thanks for the work Keith

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 07:04 PM
EDIT: The format here is: Name, Year signed through, Base salary, Allocated Bonus, 2007 Cap.


Weaver, Anthony 2010 $2,500,000 $1,206,720 $3,706,720
Williams, Mario 2011* $975,000 $2,406,720 $3,381,720
Johnson, Travis 2011 $435,000 $996,220 $1,431,220
Babin, Jason 2009 $735,503 $691,667 $1,427,170
Zgonina, Jeff 2008 $825,000 $131,720 $956,720
Maddox, Anthony 2007 $510,000 $31,720 $541,720
Kalu, N.D. 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Killings, Cedric 2007 $720,000 $46,720 $481,720
Johnson, Thomas 2007 $435,000 $6,720 $441,720
Bulman, Tim 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Malone, Alfred 2007 $360,000 $6,720 $366,720
Cochran, Earl 2007 $285,000 $6,720 $291,720

That's the defensive line except for Okoye.

From http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap.html

And people complain that they overpay Mario Williams? $3.7 Million for Anthony Weaver and he recorded 1 sack last year.

BattleRedToro
08-22-2007, 08:32 PM
Another question that remains unaswered is, is the Texans Defense better with Mario at LDE and Babin at RDE, or Weaver at LDE and Mario at RDE?

kiwitexansfan
08-22-2007, 08:48 PM
Another question that remains unaswered is, is the Texans Defense better with Mario at LDE and Babin at RDE, or Weaver at LDE and Mario at RDE?

I would say that on running dows it is the 2nd option on passing downs it is the first option.

Double Barrel
08-22-2007, 09:39 PM
I only want the Texans to put Mario in the position to perform his best, which should also make the entire defense perform their best.

I have no doubt that this coaching staff feels the same way.

Vega
08-23-2007, 08:54 AM
Just because they're putting Mario at RDE right now does not mean it shall be so until the end of time. It's very possible, they want to get him to relax and just play. Once he gets that down, they will be free to move him around and play with the alignment more.

But if it seems that he's got a lot going on in la cabeza right now, then it's not a bad idea to just stick him somewhere and let him get comfortable. Yeah, it's taking a little longer than we'd hope, but shifting him around right now doesn't seem like it would help. Let him get one thing down before we start adding to his responsibilities.

nunusguy
08-23-2007, 10:03 AM
Mario's skill set is of a strong side DE....the only reason we don't have him plugged in there is because Weaver may be less of a weak side edge rusher than Mario is and we invested a ton of jack in him...and in Mario. It sad, but we are still at the mercy of bad FA signings.

Yup, been splattered ad nauseam in other threads by other posters on this Board, but what's the best way to recover from Kubiaks bad decisions on DLine personnel ? Play Mario on the strongside edge and Weaver inside or vice versa and then whoever our best pass rusher is on the weakside edge to give us the best pressure on the QB ?

HJam72
08-23-2007, 10:44 AM
Unless things change, I think we gotta put Babin in at RDE on obvious passing downs. Whether Mario should play RDE or LDE on other downs is still a question to me, but I'm leaning toward believing he should just go to the strong side and stay there. :twocents:

real
08-23-2007, 10:47 AM
Honestly our best D-line would probably be Weaver and Babin at the DE positions...

BUT, I realize that that's not going to happen because Mario needs to develop...

Hopefully all the negativity directed at Mario fires him up for this week and he can start getting pressure on the passer, and just overall playing better...

nunusguy
08-23-2007, 01:25 PM
Honestly our best D-line would probably be Weaver and Babin at the DE positions...

BUT, I realize that that's not going to happen because Mario needs to develop...


I agree with you XT about your comment on the Weaver-Babin combo, but wonder if Kubiak has the luxury of time needed to see Marios development
as a pass rusher thru given the urgency to improve and perhaps even post a winning record this year ?
Kubiak still is in a relative honeymoon period, but if this year is a disappointment questions will be less gentle and more direct like: "Coach, what were you thinking back in 2006 when your top FA acquision & top Draft pick both played exactly the same position" ?

Joe Texan
08-23-2007, 01:40 PM
Mario will be just fine, Just wait and see.

TK_Gamer
08-23-2007, 01:42 PM
Mario's skill set is of a strong side DE....the only reason we don't have him plugged in there is because Weaver may be less of a weak side edge rusher than Mario is and we invested a ton of jack in him...and in Mario. It sad, but we are still at the mercy of bad FA signings.

Not that I think Weaver is "all that", but I don't think we can say weaver was a bad aquisition, we did get him to play strong side end did we not? and shore up the tackle position on passing downs? I think if anything Mario was picked at a bad time. He is clearly a strongside DE and we allready had one.

I honestly think Mario was a "best on the board" defensive pick, and they just didnt wanna pass him up. I think RB hurt his chances from both his visit and his parents little semi-scandal. We just signed Carr to an extention and noone would trade up. So we were basicly "stuck" with Mario as the best on the board.

I have to say I think they are handling it all wrong though. I think Mario is clearly a LDE and he should play there. If that means moving weaver to DT then so be it. If it means trading Weaver then so be it. But forcing Mario to play out of position, In my oppion, is not the way to go. Hopefully Mario can continue to learn and become a great defensive lineman wherever he ends up playing on the line. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Texans Horror
08-23-2007, 01:54 PM
I'm a huge Babin fan, but let's not get overzealous here. As a buddy of mine said a few days ago, if one more quarterback had fallen in front of Mario, he'd be tied with Babin for most sacks last year.

real
08-23-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm a huge Babin fan, but let's not get overzealous here. As a buddy of mine said a few days ago, if one more quarterback had fallen in front of Mario, he'd be tied with Babin for most sacks last year.

LOL...That is Silly...

Tell your buddy to look up the amount of snaps Babin took and compare them to the amount of snaps Mario took...

nunusguy
08-23-2007, 02:10 PM
Not that I think Weaver is "all that", but I don't think we can say weaver was a bad aquisition, we did get him to play strong side end did we not?
Anthony Weaver is anything but chopped liver. As a matter of fact, when he was healthy last year the coachs said he was hands-down our best DLineman. And he is a leader, certainly the leader among DLine starters. So he is a valuable player who makes the D better when he's on the field.

Lucky
08-23-2007, 02:37 PM
Anthony Weaver is anything but chopped liver. As a matter of fact, when he was healthy last year the coachs said he was hands-down our best DLineman. And he is a leader, certainly the leader among DLine starters. So he is a valuable player who makes the D better when he's on the field.
Hands down our best lineman last year? That's faint praise. Mario was hurt. Travis Johnson was hurt. Babin can't hold up against the run. Kalu is just a part-time pass rusher. Then, you're talking about the street FA DTs. What you have to ask is, did Weaver earn his salary last season? Being the best of a motley crew seems to hold little weight.

The problem is, where do you put Weaver in the Texans 4-3? As a LDE, he offers little pass rush. As a 3 technique DT, he provides little penetration. On the inside, he's not stout against the run. That shoulder injury's not gonna help in that regard. I thought I followed the team fairly closely, but I just realized today that Weaver is coming off a knee surgery. And that's what is keeping him off the field until the season opener. Against Larry Johnson and the Chiefs. What a way to ease into contact.

My concern is that a lot of the Texans decisions on the d-line seem to be driven by finding a way to get Weaver on the field. Mario has to play RDE, because Weaver can only play LDE. The Texans have to spend another 1st round pick on the d-line, because Weaver can't provide a push up the middle when playing DT. I just wish that the Texans had spent their FA $$$ on either a 2 gap Gilbert Brown-type DT, or a Derrick Burgess-type pass rusher.

ObsiWan
08-23-2007, 03:32 PM
LOL...That is Silly...

Tell your buddy to look up the amount of snaps Babin took and compare them to the amount of snaps Mario took...

Just make sure you subtract the run snaps from the totals and then do your comparison. Hard to get a sack on a running play. My money says Mario would still have more opportunities (i.e., passing snaps)

nunusguy
08-23-2007, 04:55 PM
Hands down our best lineman last year? That's faint praise. Mario was hurt. Travis Johnson was hurt. Babin can't hold up against the run. Kalu is just a part-time pass rusher. Then, you're talking about the street FA DTs. What you have to ask is, did Weaver earn his salary last season? Being the best of a motley crew seems to hold little weight.
The problem is, where do you put Weaver in the Texans 4-3? As a LDE, he offers little pass rush. As a 3 technique DT, he provides little penetration. On the inside, he's not stout against the run. That shoulder injury's not gonna help in that regard. I thought I followed the team fairly closely, but I just realized today that Weaver is coming off a knee surgery. And that's what is keeping him off the field until the season opener. Against Larry Johnson and the Chiefs. What a way to ease into contact.
My concern is that a lot of the Texans decisions on the d-line seem to be driven by finding a way to get Weaver on the field. Mario has to play RDE, because Weaver can only play LDE. The Texans have to spend another 1st round pick on the d-line, because Weaver can't provide a push up the middle when playing DT. I just wish that the Texans had spent their FA $$$ on either a 2 gap Gilbert Brown-type DT, or a Derrick Burgess-type pass rusher.

Your points are all valid, but let me comment on a couple.
I never said Weaver was the best DLine guy, but the coachs did though I'd certainly hope their estimate of the relative value of the individuals in that unit is not the same by the end of this year given what we've got invested.
But having 2 LDEs on our team and the complications that go with it is a perdicament that we have Kubiak to thank for.
And like you I follow the team very closely and I never heard a word, a peep about a knee injury, which of course is troubling.

The Pencil Neck
08-23-2007, 05:02 PM
And like you I follow the team very closely and I never heard a word, a peep about a knee injury, which of course is troubling.

Although they've been concentrating on his shoulder, they've also been saying "his knees are fine. his knees are fine." almost like a mantra all offseason. But they have mentioned his knees a few times so it's not like this is totally out of the blue.

Lucky
08-23-2007, 05:15 PM
And like you I follow the team very closely and I never heard a word, a peep about a knee injury, which of course is troubling.
This is from Kubiak's pre-training camp press conference (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?STORY_ID=3420):

(on player’s injuries, specifically defensive end Anthony Weaver’s) “Two guys come to mind right now. First, Anthony’s bottom half is better than it’s ever been. His legs are great, and his knee is fine. He’s way ahead of the game from that standpoint. His upper half and his strength is a little behind because he hasn’t been able to lift as much so he will be on the field twice a day, but will be out of contact periods and we’re going to try to catch him up physically. I have spoken to Anthony and know what he’s all about and he’s getting ready to play, so I’ve got to be very smart about him, but I have no doubt in my mind that he’s going to be fine. What kind of information is Kubiak getting from the Texans' doctors? That is troubling, to me, and it's becoming very common for the Texans to underestimate a player's injury.

HotRodsHair
08-23-2007, 06:49 PM
This is based on nothing substantial other than my own opinion, but when I first read your question I immediately wanted to respond left defensive end. I was kind of surprised when I heard they were going to keep him on the right side, but I think Vinny made a very good point about Weaver.

The Pencil Neck
08-23-2007, 07:14 PM
This is based on nothing substantial other than my own opinion, but when I first read your question I immediately wanted to respond left defensive end. I was kind of surprised when I heard they were going to keep him on the right side, but I think Vinny made a very good point about Weaver.

Remember that the RIGHT defensive end goes against the LEFT tackle because right and left depend on the direction you're facing.

EDIT: Sorry, I think I misread your comment. :)

BattleRedToro
08-23-2007, 07:50 PM
I for one don't think Weaver was our best Dlineman last year. Even with a hurt foot for half of the season, Mario Williams still had more Sacks, more Tackles, More Solo Tackles, and Assists than Anthony Weaver did. I know Stats don't tell the whole story, but they do say something.

Wolf
08-23-2007, 09:25 PM
This is from Kubiak's pre-training camp press conference (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?STORY_ID=3420):

What kind of information is Kubiak getting from the Texans' doctors? That is troubling, to me, and it's becoming very common for the Texans to underestimate a player's injury.

well Bronco's history of injury reports and reporting them to the NFL wasn't exactly spotless :stirpot: