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View Full Version : The "Choose Your Side On Mario" Thread


KJ3
08-20-2007, 08:50 AM
just chill, says i. i'll bet we see what we want to see by the end of the year.

i can't believe no one has said anything about that guy from the cardinals who snapped his ankle over. ugh, that was nasty when they showed the trainer forcing it back over to a semi-natural position.

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 08:54 AM
I have no side. He is a Texans whom I want to do well and who looks to have the physical ability, but I'm keeping an eye on his motor and am a little nervous that the scouting reports were right on. So I'm a fence rider who will wait and see.

bigbrewster2000
08-20-2007, 09:07 AM
While it makes me nervous to see Mario not playing very welland the Dline in general, I am still not going to start screaming about the end of the world.......yet. Preseason is preseason and I will still not put too much on it period. Regardless of who we are talking about. I definantly want to see more, but I think that will eventually happen.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 09:11 AM
I say relax, but for those who are fairly familiar with me, I'm always in relax mode. I saw some things i like, some things i dislike, hopefully it's more of the 1st one i mentioned.

badboy
08-20-2007, 09:18 AM
I have no side. He is a Texans whom I want to do well and who looks to have the physical ability, but I'm keeping an eye on his motor and am a little nervous that the scouting reports were right on. So I'm a fence rider who will wait and see.I think we should focus on two separate things on Mario Williams. What is his responsibility and what was McNairs.

1. Mario is responsible for getting to the QB. He has not this preseason and did to certain degree (4 1/2) 47 tackles last season. He was not signed to stop the run or to be pushed out of play. If he can not get to the QB, he should be tying up more than one blocker. In my opinion, he gets a 'C' for last season and an incomplete so far this preseason. So far, he projects as an average DE.

2. McNair's: Mr. McNair switched to Mario to be #1 pick of first round. No one else had him rated that high. What was Mario supposed to say, "Uh, no thanks." to all the money?

My question is "What happens by game three of regular season if Mario is playing the same? What is plan B or is there a plan B?"

HJam72
08-20-2007, 09:26 AM
Plans A, B, C, and D are don't spend anymore first round picks on the D-line. There are a few other positions that matter.

HuttoKarl
08-20-2007, 09:26 AM
I play for the patience team.

eriadoc
08-20-2007, 09:28 AM
I'm not seeing enough of the things that make me optimistic, but I'm no Chicken Little on the matter, either. It takes time, and because of Carr, Bush, and VY, fans here aren't willing to give it time. That's unrealistic, and those that are too impatient are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

Nonetheless, Mario has to show something. Last year, he flashed at times. The foot kept him from doing so as frequently as we would have liked, but he had some big plays vs. the Dolphins, Tacks, and Giants, just off the top of my head. If he can improve upon that this year, I won't worry. Preseason means nothing.

real
08-20-2007, 09:30 AM
side? lol...

How can you be a Texan fan and NOT want Mario to succeed ?

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 09:41 AM
side? lol...

How can you be a Texan fan and NOT want Mario to succeed ?

b/c you have other agendas. **coughs** RB & **coughs** VY.

Brando
08-20-2007, 10:02 AM
I play for the patience team.

Ditto.

Go Texans!



By the way Saturdays game was exciting.

:texflag:

HuttoKarl
08-20-2007, 10:06 AM
Ditto.

Go Texans!



By the way Saturdays game was exciting.

:texflag:


Shaub's pocket presence is very refreshing. His head's on a swivel all the time and he's not afraid to spread the ball out. Jones and Daniels and even Walter have looked pretty good and I have serious doubts that they'd look as good as they have with Carr behind center.

When the defense starts mixing up blitzes and stunts rather than a straight-up 4 man rush, I think the defensive line will start looking better than they have.

Lucky
08-20-2007, 10:09 AM
Mr. McNair switched to Mario to be #1 pick of first round. No one else had him rated that high.

That is not correct. There was a report on Sporting News radio just after the draft that said as many as 7 teams had Mario atop their draft board. Bill Parcells and the Eagles GM Tom Heckert are on record that Mario was #1 on their boards.


What was Mario supposed to say, "Uh, no thanks." to all the money?
Isn't that what Reggie Bush said?

TexansFight
08-20-2007, 10:13 AM
What MW has to accomplish to be worthy of where he was taken and the guys we passed on is pretty high and unfair. If he was a 10-11 sacks a year guy he still would not been worth the pick. The scary thing is that he is not even a 10-11 sack a year guy but maybe a 7 sack a year guy at best.

That type of production will earn him the label of being a bust and deservedly so. He is the worst #1 pick since Aundray Bruce.

bigbrewster2000
08-20-2007, 10:51 AM
What MW has to accomplish to be worthy of where he was taken and the guys we passed on is pretty high and unfair. If he was a 10-11 sacks a year guy he still would not been worth the pick. The scary thing is that he is not even a 10-11 sack a year guy but maybe a 7 sack a year guy at best.

That type of production will earn him the label of being a bust and deservedly so. He is the worst #1 pick since Aundray Bruce.

Well, you have no idea what kind of production he will have in the future, and you are jumping the gun by saying hew is the worst #1 pick since A. Bruce. How do you know if he is or is not a 10-11 sack sack guy? We don't know any of that stuff yet. Sure we can all guess by what little we have seen this PRESEASON but again stop jumping the gun here. At least(very least) reserve this kind of talk til the regular season.

And I would like an explanation from you that can tell me why you know exactly the kind of sack production Mario will have? As far as I am concerned if you can't do that your statement is silly. For the record I think you statement is already silly.

nunusguy
08-20-2007, 10:56 AM
The dynamic duo, Marcus Stroud & John Henderson who play on the inside for the Jags 4-3 and are both in the 6-6 to 6-7 range, are considered among the best if not the best inside combo in the league and obviously aren't too tall to be effective DTs.
So Mario's height shouldn't necessarily eliminate him from being considered at that position if he's just not going to be a fit playing on the edge at DE in the Texans 4-3 ? Afterall its looking more and more like his long-suit is rushing defense and not rushing the passer ?

Vinny
08-20-2007, 11:11 AM
I'm on the side of 'I wish he would play well'.

I've seen a lot of people say wait a year to say start commenting about a players play...wait for 3 years, wait, wait, wait....well, some of you guys may need to wait and let the world form an opinion before you form yours, but the NFL season is a very short sports season and there are only a few games...each game shows me something and I'll judge players as I see them play. Last year Mario came out of the gate vs the Eagles and had a lackluster perfomance.....everyone said, wait! It's too early! Well, it isn't too early to see if he wins any individual battles as the first overall pick in a historic draft loaded with difference makers.

This year is starting out exactly like last year for Mario...So far I see no improvement, no new rush moves....but I did hear him say he wants to break the sack record. I mean, come on....you can't even whip the mediocre journeyman Mike Gandy. I'd like to see him at least talk realistically....it wouldn't sound so out of touch with reality.

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 11:16 AM
*cheers for Vinny's voice of reason*

dskillz
08-20-2007, 11:48 AM
I am in the camp of wait and see. Seemingly all of the d-line is struggling at breaking blocks and getting pressure. But of course with Mario being the #1 pick, we expect alot more from him. Seeing him getting blocked by one guy and him not getting near the QB is frustrating. Not because I hate Mario, but because he seems like a good guy and I want to see him doing well. Also, it seems that Mario doing well brings all kinds of the wrong attention to the team. I am giving him until the end of next season. If we don't see something by year 3, then I think we know we just got 'another guy' and not a defensive force.

With all that said, it looked like Mario was getting held in the Cardinals game whenever he did get some penetration.

badboy
08-20-2007, 12:14 PM
That is not correct. There was a report on Sporting News radio just after the draft that said as many as 7 teams had Mario atop their draft board. Bill Parcells and the Eagles GM Tom Heckert are on record that Mario was #1 on their boards.



Isn't that what Reggie Bush said?After the draft, we heard that other treams had Mario rated high on their boards but I recall no one on tv, radio or news print focusing on Mario in the top 3-4 picks.

badboy
08-20-2007, 12:22 PM
If Williams could get 10 sacks this season, I'd be estactic because with that going on he would probably be getting some QB pressures. Also, he might be tieing up more than one defensive player allowing another lineman or backer to get to the QB. Mario gets angry and becomes a force, hmm. If he does not have a dominant game against the Cowboys, I'd sit him on the bench for TB and suggest to him he will be a back up for game 1. Maybe he'd get 'angry' and play up to his ability.

badboy
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
well, for this thread anyway, most -if not all- of us are on the "it's too early to come down with the hammer of judgement" side rather than the "omg, for realz, mario williams is teh suxorz" side. good.

the thing that surprises me is that while on the side which most people seem to be on, not many look for him to improve at all. because of a few preseason games. he has barely even played one game worth of downs in the preseason and everybody is tearing him apart. last year he played all over the line which never centered his focus on one task. coupled with the foot injury which i mean c'mon, that would've taken most players out of the game completely. also at a position which most people agree takes longer to learn and develop. this includes the resounding dislike for him as the #1 over vy/bush in the local and national media. all told, he still had a decent year.

i feel for him, because some people have already made up their minds and he will never be good enough to satisfy some. by the way, i wanted bush, but i think i'm happier with what we got. and i look for this season to show an improvement in the ways of DE from mario. and the next. and the next. and hell, i'll go so far as to even say the next.

Yes, I agree BUT he does not have a foot injury now. He is not moving all over the line and he does not have 20 people telling him what to do. He should have a pretty decent game against Cowboys. We'll see.

2BCF
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Every Texans fan wants Mario to succeed.

But some of us aren't going to be enablers of his mediocre play.
If MW were to ever take a glance at the boards and see a bunch of posts saying, "give him 3-4 yrs blah, blah, blah" he'll never improve.

Thorn
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
I think we should trade Mario to Atlanta for two 2nd round draft choices.


I kid! I kid! Mario is not playing well right now, it's plain for anyone including Mario himself that this is not what is expected of him. I think he will pick up and do fine.

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 01:11 PM
I think we should trade Mario to Atlanta for two 2nd round draft choices.


I kid! I kid! Mario is not playing well right now, it's plain for anyone including Mario himself that this is not what is expected of him. I think he will pick up and do fine.

i hope so, bro. i hope so.

badboy
08-20-2007, 01:21 PM
I think we should trade Mario to Atlanta for two 2nd round draft choices.


I kid! I kid! Mario is not playing well right now, it's plain for anyone including Mario himself that this is not what is expected of him. I think he will pick up and do fine.Two 2nds and swap first round picks? I might be interested. No wait we are still on the hook for his bonus.

badboy
08-20-2007, 01:29 PM
that's exactly the opposite of what i'm saying. i'm not "enabling" bad performances past or future. i'm saying give him 2 or 3 years to improve. not to just stand pat. that's hardly enabling. improvement it what we all want here, and i don't for one second believe giving him his due chance is enabling what so many already label a bust. it's just sad to me that so many have the hammer in their hands already even if they haven't come down with it.2-3 years? Absolutely not! RB and DE are mostly instinctual players and should be at top speed by game 4 of first season. I give him a break on his first season because of injury and playing him all over. By game two of this season, Mario should be in combat mode.

bigbrewster2000
08-20-2007, 01:44 PM
2-3 years? Absolutely not! RB and DE are mostly instinctual players and should be at top speed by game 4 of first season. I give him a break on his first season because of injury and playing him all over. By game two of this season, Mario should be in combat mode.

I hope you were being sarcastic. The majority of DE's takemore than 4 games to get into the groove. Also KJ said he wants to watch him improve over the next 2 or 3 years, you don't?

Vinny
08-20-2007, 01:46 PM
I think the reality is that regardless of position, some players come along slowly and some players get up to speed quickly. In an ideal world your top picks are supposed to "get it" fast since they get paid top money and tie up the largest chunks of your hard cap space. Teams take guys who are projects later because it will take a few years to get up to speed and they don't have to tie up money on guys who aren't going to be good for a few years. Obviously Mario was one of those guys that the Texans were hoping to "get it" quickly.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 01:52 PM
I think the reality is that regardless of position, some players come along slowly and some players get up to speed quickly. In an ideal world your top picks are supposed to "get it" fast since they get paid top money and tie up the largest chunks of your hard cap space. Teams take guys who are projects later because it will take a few years to get up to speed and they don't have to tie up money on guys who aren't going to be good for a few years. Obviously Mario was one of those guys that the Texans were hoping to "get it" quickly.

Well said, i think some people want to see him progress just as fast as the other guys taken after him. anything less & he's a bust or we made a mistake etc...

badboy
08-20-2007, 02:30 PM
I hope you were being sarcastic. The majority of DE's takemore than 4 games to get into the groove. Also KJ said he wants to watch him improve over the next 2 or 3 years, you don't?Uh, anything he does would be an improvement. I want Mario to succeed, but that also means I want him to play like he wants to be on the field. I have crossed out last season as a wash due to injuries and positional movement. By game two he should not look lost and at least be getting close to the QB.

JohnsonFan
08-20-2007, 02:35 PM
i dont know everyone says give him time he will breakout or learn, but how long will we wait? lets hope this is his season.

brakos82
08-20-2007, 02:35 PM
I'll take the left side. :shades:

eriadoc
08-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Every Texans fan wants Mario to succeed.

But some of us aren't going to be enablers of his mediocre play.
If MW were to ever take a glance at the boards and see a bunch of posts saying, "give him 3-4 yrs blah, blah, blah" he'll never improve.

Is that the current excuse? Are you really concerned that, a.) Mario will come to this board, b.) he'll see what someone wrote, and c.) he'll let that affect his on-field performance?

Do you really believe that anything anyone posts on here will affect on-field play and/or decisions by the team?

I think not, but if the above is your explanation for why people post the way they do ...... well, just Wow.

JohnsonFan
08-20-2007, 02:41 PM
Is that the current excuse? Are you really concerned that, a.) Mario will come to this board, b.) he'll see what someone wrote, and c.) he'll let that affect his on-field performance?

Do you really believe that anything anyone posts on here will affect on-field play and/or decisions by the team?

I think not, but if the above is your explanation for why people post the way they do ...... well, just Wow.
yea haha mario wont be on this board sorry guys lol

Pantherstang84
08-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Every Texans fan wants Mario to succeed.

But some of us aren't going to be enablers of his mediocre play.
If MW were to ever take a glance at the boards and see a bunch of posts saying, "give him 3-4 yrs blah, blah, blah" he'll never improve.

Oh. Please. I'm sure professional football players actually pay attention to a bunch of armchair coaches, Gms, and fantasy football nuts and their opinions.

Some of us might have played a little high school, or even college ball. However, there isn't a swinging Richard on this board that has played this game in the NFL.

Yeah. If I'm Mario Williams I'm really taking to heart what is said on this MB. Some of you people need to come back to Mother Earth. Your sense of self importance is way too grand.

badboy
08-20-2007, 04:03 PM
Well. I read this MB and I responded to your posts on David Carr didn't I? Now I'm working on the cost of those hot dogs. Just bear with me a few more years. signed Bob (billionaire)McNair

2BCF
08-20-2007, 07:28 PM
yea haha mario wont be on this board sorry guys lol

yeah I agree, he'd be too ashamed after his performance these first two p/s games.

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 07:58 PM
Whatever it takes for our defense to get better, that's the side I'm on. If he gets zero sacks and we win, I'm happy. If he gets 25 sacks this year and we lose, I'm angry.

For me, its about what our team does.

Kubiak said Mario needs to make more of an impact. That's the bottom line because Kubiak is the guy Mario needs to answer to. And I don't think Kubiak will hold onto Mario if he's not getting the production he expects.

And I don't care how much Mario makes because I don't sign his checks.

Oh and regarding the 7 other teams that had Mario rated #1 on their boards, how low in the first round were they drafting?? If I was drafting outside of the top ten where I had no shot at Bush, Young, et. al, I might have had Mario at the top of my board. Its a whole 'nuther matter if I have the overall #1 pick. Did anyone ask those same teams if they had the first pick would they have still used it on Mario?

brakos82
08-20-2007, 08:05 PM
Whatever it takes for our defense to get better, that's the side I'm on. If he gets zero sacks and we win, I'm happy. If he gets 25 sacks this year and we lose, I'm angry.

For me, its about what our team does.

Kubiak said Mario needs to make more of an impact. That's the bottom line because Kubiak is the guy Mario needs to answer to. And I don't think Kubiak will hold onto Mario if he's not getting the production he expects.

And I don't care how much Mario makes because I don't sign his checks.

Oh and regarding the 7 other teams that had Mario rated #1 on their boards, how low in the first round were they drafting?? If I was drafting outside of the top ten where I had no shot at Bush, Young, et. al, I might have had Mario at the top of my board. Its a whole 'nuther matter if I have the overall #1 pick. Did anyone ask those same teams if they had the first pick would they have still used it on Mario?

I heard that the Saints were wanting to pick Mario. :shades:

whiskeyrbl
08-20-2007, 08:05 PM
From where I'm standing there is only one side of the fence! GO MARIO---GO TEXANS:fans:

jdog
08-20-2007, 08:08 PM
I was under the impression that he was a "project" when we drafted him meaning that he was gifted with rare physical abilities but needed coaching on technique. So, one year is not enough time for a verdict.

As far as whether or not he should start, I think he should be pulled if someone behind him can play the position better. In fact, with all of the competition in camp clearly making the team better, I think we should have Weaver and Williams compete for time at LDE and Kalu and Babin compete for time at RDE.

brakos82
08-20-2007, 08:09 PM
From where I'm standing there is only one side of the fence! GO MARIO---GO TEXANS:fans:

There's that side, then there's the dark side... mwah-ha-ha-ha! :goodbad:

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 08:16 PM
I heard that the Saints were wanting to pick Mario. :shades:

Do you really think that if we'd picked VY, leaving them to choose between RB and MW, they'd have picked Mario?

Now we all know they didn't need a QB, so the choice between RB and VY was a no-brainer for them. But RB vs. MW? ....I'm betting they still pick RB.

Rex King
08-20-2007, 08:27 PM
Do you really think that if we'd picked VY, leaving them to choose between RB and MW, they'd have picked Mario?

Now we all know they didn't need a QB, so the choice between RB and VY was a no-brainer for them. But RB vs. MW? ....I'm betting they still pick RB.

Just say no! We've had enough of this debate with our own team IMO, without doing it for the Saints as well.:texflag:

The1ApplePie
08-20-2007, 08:53 PM
I heard that the Saints were wanting to pick Mario. :shades:

Except for Sean Payton, who was going to take AJ Hawk.:user:

htexfan
08-20-2007, 08:55 PM
You guys should take a look at texans tv on the texans website. Kubiak talks about what he thinks of MW and his play as of late.

.http://www.houstontexans.com/tv/index.asp?mm_file_id=1621

choose the title Kubiak pleased a day later. It is worth watching if you have not already seen it. Though I don't think it will be a big shock to anyone about what he says.

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 09:10 PM
Except for Sean Payton, who was going to take AJ Hawk.:user:
why didn't he? Hawk was still there....

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 09:10 PM
Just say no! We've had enough of this debate with our own team IMO, without doing it for the Saints as well.:texflag:

ooooo-kaaaay

powerfuldragon
08-20-2007, 09:11 PM
as long as he's a texan, i'm on mario's side.

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 09:18 PM
as long as he's a texan, i'm on mario's side.
me too.

sakebomb
08-20-2007, 09:34 PM
I'm hoping for the best in regards to Mario but we need to be realistic. Why does he need more time? Why can't he make at least one freaking play. I see Bush making nice catches and TD's. I see VY putting that crappy a$$ team on his shoulders and winning football games. Is it to much to ask for one sack? What about ONE FREAKING TACKLE? An assist even. I don't think I'm being hard on the guy. Just give me something. If he played every game like he did against the Giants I think we would all be very happy. The problem is that his plays are very far apart and he isn't disruptive at all.

powerfuldragon
08-20-2007, 09:36 PM
Why can't he make at least one freaking play.
you're correct. mario williams has never made a play. :specnatz:

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2007, 09:55 PM
Ultimately, I really don't care if Mario lives up to his #1 draft status or if he ends up a bust. I only care if our defense is playing well or not. It's up to our coaches to take the players we have and put them in positions and situations where they can be successful. Personally, I think we need to put our best unit on the field; the best and most productive combination of players. If that means that we sit Mario until he's one of our better/most productive players, then fine. If that means he never sees the field, fine.

I can understand the argument of grooming him for the future by putting him on the field so that he can learn but I'm not sure I buy it.

Last pre-season, I really thought that our line looked best with Mario as a DT with Babin beside him. Mario had the strength to collapse the pocket and Babin brought pressure. Mario was good against the run and could have kept blockers off of Demeco. But the coaches didn't see it that way. If we need to move Mario to the LDE and put Babin or ND on Charlie on the right side, fine. If we need to move Mario inside, fine. Let's just do whatever it takes to field the best unit we can and let's kick some butt.

:d: :texflag:

bayshorebevo
08-20-2007, 09:59 PM
They can't bench Mario yet no matter what. McNair won't stand for it any more than he wouldn't with Carr. That would be admitting it was the wrong pick.

ObsiWan
08-20-2007, 11:11 PM
Ultimately, I really don't care if Mario lives up to his #1 draft status or if he ends up a bust. I only care if our defense is playing well or not. It's up to our coaches to take the players we have and put them in positions and situations where they can be successful. Personally, I think we need to put our best unit on the field; the best and most productive combination of players. If that means that we sit Mario until he's one of our better/most productive players, then fine. If that means he never sees the field, fine.

I can understand the argument of grooming him for the future by putting him on the field so that he can learn but I'm not sure I buy it.

Last pre-season, I really thought that our line looked best with Mario as a DT with Babin beside him. Mario had the strength to collapse the pocket and Babin brought pressure. Mario was good against the run and could have kept blockers off of Demeco. But the coaches didn't see it that way. If we need to move Mario to the LDE and put Babin or ND on Charlie on the right side, fine. If we need to move Mario inside, fine. Let's just do whatever it takes to field the best unit we can and let's kick some butt.

:d: :texflag:

YESSSS!!!
Excellent post!!
that is totally the bottom line.

this silly thing won't let me rep you
:o(

Wolf
08-20-2007, 11:23 PM
This board would be so dead, if we would have picked Peppers in 2002 and picked VY in 2006 :heh:


seriously, IF Mario has a down year, I say we bring in " consultants" in the offseason, Bring Bruce Mathews and maybe a Bruce Smith (just throwing out names) to teach Mario and Amobi some veteran techniques on rushing the passer and what a lineman does to counter it ...


ok maybe I am joking still :joker:

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 01:18 AM
What MW has to accomplish to be worthy of where he was taken and the guys we passed on is pretty high and unfair. If he was a 10-11 sacks a year guy he still would not been worth the pick. The scary thing is that he is not even a 10-11 sack a year guy but maybe a 7 sack a year guy at best.

That type of production will earn him the label of being a bust and deservedly so. He is the worst #1 pick since Aundray Bruce.


And we hear once again from the sour grapes crowd. I'm soldily on Mario's side. You really need to go rewatch St. Vincent's latest offering, texan'sfight. It was a hoot. I know I enjoyed it.


Thank you Lucky for keeping the record correct.

beerlover
08-21-2007, 01:37 AM
The scary thing is that he is not even a 10-11 sack a year guy but maybe a 7 sack a year guy at best.

I would encourage you to explain your projection of Mario being "a 7 sack a year guy at best" based on..........:mario2:

JohnsonFan
08-21-2007, 01:48 AM
yea as i have learned on these forums u have to back up what u say

Carr Bombed
08-21-2007, 02:18 AM
I was under the impression that he was a "project" when we drafted him meaning that he was gifted with rare physical abilities but needed coaching on technique.

That statement scares the crap out of me.

Sit back and remove the name Mario Williams from that description and act like your just reading a random draft profile about a prospect in a upcoming draft...Answer this question honestly...............

Does that sound like a #1 overal pick?

Pantherstang84
08-21-2007, 08:49 AM
That statement scares the crap out of me.

Sit back and remove the name Mario Williams from that description and act like your just reading a random draft profile about a prospect in a upcoming draft...Answer this question honestly...............

Does that sound like a #1 overal pick?

I've seen it stated before in these forums but it bears repeating...

Mario Williams had no input regarding where he was drafted. It is a little disingenuous to blame him for being the "#1 overall pick." Get mad at Kubiak, McNair, Casserly, Smith, Mel Kiper Jr., the entire collection of NFL scouts, Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny if you like.

But don't blame Mario Williams because where he was drafted does not match the performance you expect out of him.

bayshorebevo
08-21-2007, 08:56 AM
Who's blaming Mario? The blame has been placed on CC, McNair, Kubiak, etc. As far as feeling sorry for him, for that kind of money most people wouldn't mind being called lousy pick all day long.

CT CSTM
08-21-2007, 09:14 AM
. As far as feeling sorry for him, for that kind of money most people wouldn't mind being called lousy pick all day long.

Believe me,,,it does bother him,,

eriadoc
08-21-2007, 09:22 AM
That statement scares the crap out of me.

Sit back and remove the name Mario Williams from that description and act like your just reading a random draft profile about a prospect in a upcoming draft...Answer this question honestly...............

Does that sound like a #1 overal pick?

Yes. It happens all the time. JaMarcus Russell this year, for example. He's not ready to play. He's a project. There are some players that take that step sooner than others, and you'd hope it would be the top picks, but the truth is - it's a crapshoot. There's no way to accurately predict who will be a bbust and who won't. So teams often take the guy that has the physical tools to be an All Pro player, thinking they can coach up the rest. Certain positions are easier to transition than others, so some players make a more imediate impact than others. Look at how long it took Reggie Bush to get going last year, and then look at how quickly MJD made an impact. Does that mean Bush wasn't as good as advertised? Or does it just mean that MJD was really, really good? Addai got better as the year progressed as well. The RB position is one that can make a more immediate impact in the NFL, while QB is not. Every-down DE is not an easy transition, either.

For the past decade, most of the #1 overall picks have been QBs. Most of those QBs did not start thir first year as the 1st team QB. Of those that did, I think only Peyton Manning has been a resounding success. Vick and the other Manning have been up and down, and Couch and Carr were busts. Alex Smith is looking good, but he sat for the first half of his first season. Leaf, while a #2, was also a bust. Carson Palmer sat a year.

So, I guess people are more willing to accept a project at QB than other positions, unless you happen to be a fan in Houston, in which case your perception is probably skewed by the Carr debacle.

OK, I am officially rambling now, but my answer to your question is Yes.

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 09:25 AM
I've seen it stated before in these forums but it bears repeating...

Mario Williams had no input regarding where he was drafted. It is a little disingenuous to blame him for being the "#1 overall pick." Get mad at Kubiak, McNair, Casserly, Smith, Mel Kiper Jr., the entire collection of NFL scouts, Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny if you like.

But don't blame Mario Williams because where he was drafted does not match the performance you expect out of him.

Being a number 1 overall pick doesn't mean that you won't struggle learning & adjusting to the pro game like all the rest of the rookies. Based on the stats & impact of all the rookies from the 1st round in that draft, Joseph Addai shoud've been the OROY & Kamerion Wimbley could make a strong case for DROY. Does that mean that RB, VY,Ngata, Huff & every other offensive & defensive player taken before them was a bust?

I don't think so. People just need to sit back & relax b/c there are other guys on that line that have to step up as well.

real
08-21-2007, 09:29 AM
... but the truth is - it's a crapshoot. There's no way to accurately predict who will be a bbust and who won't. So teams often take the guy that has the physical tools to be an All Pro player, thinking they can coach up the rest.


Not entirely true...

While no one can be 100% all of the time when they scout players, sometimes things are just plain obvious...

I would say about 80%(being generous because it's probably really about 99.5%) of everyone who knew anything about footall would have picked RB or VY or would have traded down or maybe would have just flat out chose D'Brick.

I'm not saying Mario was the wrong pick, but it damn sure was risky.

real
08-21-2007, 09:35 AM
I don't think so. People just need to sit back & relax b/c there are other guys on that line that have to step up as well.

Not sure if you noticed or not, but we're expecting a bulk of our pass rush to come from Mario....

It's fine if you guys have lowered your personal expectations of him, but if we aren't expecting this guy to be a star why'd we take him #1 overall? You don't harp on how you want to increase your pass rush, take a DE #1 overall, and then turn around and say that you just want "pressure"....Sacks as a stat aren't important, but as far as the loss of yards, loss of momentum, putting the offense at a disadvantage;those things are huge...

Mario needs to know that the fans aren't satisfied with his play.....He doesn't look good out there....maybe if he hears enough people gripe he'll get 'fired up'....

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2007, 09:42 AM
Not sure if you noticed or not, but we're expecting a bulk of our pass rush to come from Mario....

So the Anthony Weaver and ND Kalu signings before the 2006 draft were just for training camp?

real
08-21-2007, 09:46 AM
So the Anthony Weaver and ND Kalu signings before the 2006 draft were just for training camp?

Yeah, because we expected Anthony Weaver to be a sack artist...What was I thinking ?

And we expected and aging veteran in Kalu to come in and and be a more valuable piece in our pass rush than A DE we took with the number one overall...We expected both of these guys to have more of an impact than a guy the organization deemed "the guy to stop Peyton Manning"....

Yeah, we just chose him to be an intergal piece.....:rolleyes:

real
08-21-2007, 09:48 AM
Not sure when this notion came about that it's o.k for Mario to be average...

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 09:55 AM
Not sure if you noticed or not, but we're expecting a bulk of our pass rush to come from Mario....

It's fine if you guys have lowered your personal expectations of him, but if we aren't expecting this guy to be a star why'd we take him #1 overall? You don't harp on how you want to increase your pass rush, take a DE #1 overall, and then turn around and say that you just want "pressure"....Sacks as a stat aren't important, but as far as the loss of yards, loss of momentum, putting the offense at a disadvantage;those things are huge...

Mario needs to know that the fans aren't satisfied with his play.....He doesn't look good out there....maybe if he hears enough people gripe he'll get 'fired up'....

Yeah, b/c that worked for DC & P-Buc & TJ & Babin & god knows how many other picks right?

You moreso than anyone else on this board should know that a defense is at its best when it's cohesive & seamless. You can go back in history & look @ the best defenses & thats the 1 constant. When your main guy is being held in check, the other guys have to step up & give the opposition something else to worry about so it becomes a pick-your-poison type thing.

mario needs to play better, but the others have to get it going to. As it stands right now, teams are occasionally doubling or chipping mario & noone else is stepping up to be that other poison.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2007, 10:06 AM
Yeah, because we expected Anthony Weaver to be a sack artist...What was I thinking ?

And we expected and aging veteran in Kalu to come in and and be a more valuable piece in our pass rush than A DE we took with the number one overall...We expected both of these guys to have more of an impact than a guy the organization deemed "the guy to stop Peyton Manning"....

Yeah, we just chose him to be an intergal piece.....:rolleyes:

Context is key here:
- New staff in 2006
- transition to a 4-3
- Down goes your two starting DT's
- Down goes Anthony Weaver
- Move Mario all over the place
- Karmelowicz thought Plantar Faciitis was a foot fungus
- Reggie Bush's team goes to the NFC championship game contributing mightily as a WR and a PR
- VY ressurects the Titans and wins OROY
- Demeco Ryans wins DROY
- Mario drops 15 pounds
- Two pre season games and limited snaps for Mario while still bull rushing
- Mario is labeled a bust

So many threads on Mario being a bust and having no fire and motivation is ridiculous. The kid played all of last year under some crazy conditions and helped us along the way. He needs to show improvement, but to expect that improvement to be shown in limited snaps with limited scheme in the pre season I think is a little short sighted.

Vinny
08-21-2007, 10:08 AM
So many threads on Mario being a bust and having no fire and motivation is ridiculous. The kid played all of last year under some crazy conditions and helped us along the way. He needs to show improvement, but to expect that improvement to be shown in limited snaps with limited scheme in the pre season I think is a little short sighted.The only myopic person I see is Mario....he has been nothing but a disappointment and he comes out and says he is going to break the NFL record for sacks this year and he can't even beat Mike Gandy one on one in the preseason....dude just needs to shut up and make a play and that will shut fans up.

powerfuldragon
08-21-2007, 10:09 AM
Context is key here:
- New staff in 2006
- transition to a 4-3
- Down goes your two starting DT's
- Down goes Anthony Weaver
- Move Mario all over the place
- Karmelowicz thought Plantar Faciitis was a foot fungus
- Reggie Bush's team goes to the NFC championship game contributing mightily as a WR and a PR
- VY ressurects the Titans and wins OROY
- Demeco Ryans wins DROY
- Mario drops 15 pounds
- Two pre season games and limited snaps for Mario while still bull rushing
- Mario is labeled a bust

So many threads on Mario being a bust and having no fire and motivation is ridiculous. The kid played all of last year under some crazy conditions and helped us along the way. He needs to show improvement, but to expect that improvement to be shown in limited snaps with limited scheme in the pre season I think is a little short sighted.

you summed it up well. anyone know how long the starters will play against the cowboys? is it the whole first half or what?

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 10:12 AM
Yeah, because we expected Anthony Weaver to be a sack artist...What was I thinking ?

And we expected and aging veteran in Kalu to come in and and be a more valuable piece in our pass rush than A DE we took with the number one overall...We expected both of these guys to have more of an impact than a guy the organization deemed "the guy to stop Peyton Manning"....

Yeah, we just chose him to be an intergal piece.....:rolleyes:

If we wanted him to exclusively be a sack artist he'd only be in on 3rd & 5 & long situations sort of like how Indy uses freeney. He's not being developed that way. Kubes is developing him as an every down guy.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2007, 10:12 AM
The only myopic person I see is Mario....he has been nothing but a disappointment and he comes out and says he is going to break the NFL record for sacks this year and he can't even beat Mike Gandy one on one in the preseason....dude just needs to shut up and make a play and that will shut fans up. Until then you can go on browbeating the fans like Hukly did.

That play will come against the Chiefs on 9/9. Until then please continue brow beating the fans in the pre season.

Vinny
08-21-2007, 10:13 AM
That play will come against the Chiefs on 9/9. Until then please continue brow beating the fans in the pre season.look in the mirror. Most of us are critical of Mario...you are the one brow beating the fans for not thinking like you. Don't be a hypocrite.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2007, 10:15 AM
look in the mirror

I cannot see September 9th in the mirror.

real
08-21-2007, 10:21 AM
... to expect that improvement to be shown in limited snaps with limited scheme in the pre season I think is a little short sighted.


I don't...

Why should we judge Mario on a different scale than the rest of the team ?

The off-season is for improvement...You show that improvement in camp and in the pre-season...

Sorta like all the other players are doing....:cowboy1:

Specnatz
08-21-2007, 10:22 AM
The only myopic person I see is Mario....he has been nothing but a disappointment and he comes out and says he is going to break the NFL record for sacks this year and he can't even beat Mike Gandy one on one in the preseason....dude just needs to shut up and make a play and that will shut fans up.

Actually Vinny he said he wants to, not that he will do it this year. He answered a question asked by a reporter. If he does just what you want him to do, and shuts up and stops talking to the media I would love to see the reaction around here. Mario is scared to talk he knows he sucks, even he thinks he is a bust. That is exactly what would be said around here.

Mario showed flashes last year even with the foot ailments, and now after two preseason games all that is forgotten and he is now the whipping boy.

Before anyone thinks I think he is perfect, that is wrong. He needs to improve but I will not just trash a young player after one season. Kinda like a few people who will only give Schaub one year and then call for him to be cut.

real
08-21-2007, 10:24 AM
If we wanted him to exclusively be a sack artist he'd only be in on 3rd & 5 & long situations sort of like how Indy uses freeney. He's not being developed that way. Kubes is developing him as an every down guy.

Sure...

That's why he himself keeps harping on the pass rush...

Wake up, smell the coffee...

If Kubiak was happy with Mario's play he wouldn't have made the comments he made...

I'm not sure why we can't be worried about a guy we took #1 overall when he's come out in the early part of the year and shown nothing...

Vinny
08-21-2007, 10:26 AM
Actually Vinny he said he wants to, not that he will do it this year. He answered a question asked by a reporter. If he does just what you want him to do, and shuts up and stops talking to the media I would love to see the reaction around here. Mario is scared to talk he knows he sucks, even he thinks he is a bust. That is exactly what would be said around here.

Mario showed flashes last year even with the foot ailments, and now after two preseason games all that is forgotten and he is now the whipping boy.

Before anyone thinks I think he is perfect, that is wrong. He needs to improve but I will not just trash a young player after one season. Kinda like a few people who will only give Schaub one year and then call for him to be cut.If you were happy with Mario last year...good for you. I know I wasn't happy with crap play from the first overall pick. Him saying he wanted to break the all time sack record reminded me of when Dr Evil woke up he wanted to ransom the world for the sum of ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.....it just sounded out of touch.

Kaiser Toro
08-21-2007, 10:32 AM
If you were happy with Mario last year...good for you. I know I wasn't happy with crap play from the first overall pick. Him saying he wanted to break the all time sack record reminded me of when Dr Evil woke up he wanted to ransom the world for the sum of ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.....it just sounded out of touch.

Dr. Evil was also part of a franchise that grossed over hundreds of millions of dollars in the end.

I can imagine the Dr. Evil and Mini Me rants coming for Mario and Okoye in the future.

Vinny
08-21-2007, 10:33 AM
Dr. Evil was also part of a franchise that grossed over hundreds of millions of dollars in the end.

I can imagine the Dr. Evil and Mini Me rants coming for Mario and Okoye in the future.
now that you mention Okoye and Mini Me....I can only think of one word...photoshop. :pirate:

Texan Asylum
08-21-2007, 10:37 AM
now that you mention Okoye and Mini Me....I can only think of one word...photoshop. :pirate:

Uh oh!!! :heh:

Mr teX
08-21-2007, 10:38 AM
Sure...

That's why he himself keeps harping on the pass rush...

Wake up, smell the coffee...

If Kubiak was happy with Mario's play he wouldn't have made the comments he made...

I'm not sure why we can't be worried about a guy we took #1 overall when he's come out in the early part of the year and shown nothing...

Why? I don't know maybe b/c it's preseason & maybe b/c the line as a whole is responsible for the pass rush, not just Mario. j j/k.

On kubes' show yesterday he also mentioned that mario is doing what they want him to do too...... That is to continue to develop & not just get over-anxious when he recognizes something...

badboy
08-21-2007, 11:06 AM
So what should a rational (guess that leaves me out) fan expect from Mario and the Dline Saturday? Will zero sacks (quite possible) result in doom and gloom or wait until TB?

Specnatz
08-21-2007, 11:08 AM
If you were happy with Mario last year...good for you. I know I wasn't happy with crap play from the first overall pick. Him saying he wanted to break the all time sack record reminded me of when Dr Evil woke up he wanted to ransom the world for the sum of ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.....it just sounded out of touch.

It is odd you are willing to give some players time and others not, sounds oh so familiar.

Where did I say I was happy, I in fact said he needs to improve but I will not call for his head after one season. You failed to read everything I wrote which is very uncharacteristic of you.

real
08-21-2007, 11:10 AM
So what should a rational (guess that leaves me out) fan expect from Mario and the Dline Saturday? Will zero sacks (quite possible) result in doom and gloom or wait until TB?

Well according to many on the board, the D-line could just stay at home and watch the LB's and DB's play...

Carr Bombed
08-21-2007, 11:11 AM
If you were happy with Mario last year...good for you. I know I wasn't happy with crap play from the first overall pick. Him saying he wanted to break the all time sack record reminded me of when Dr Evil woke up he wanted to ransom the world for the sum of ONE MILLLLLLION DOLLARS.....it just sounded out of touch.

Or when DD said he was going to rush for over 2,000 yards in his second year on the show I,Max.

Carr Bombed
08-21-2007, 11:17 AM
Yes. It happens all the time. JaMarcus Russell this year, for example. He's not ready to play. He's a project. There are some players that take that step sooner than others, and you'd hope it would be the top picks, but the truth is - it's a crapshoot. There's no way to accurately predict who will be a bbust and who won't. So teams often take the guy that has the physical tools to be an All Pro player, thinking they can coach up the rest. Certain positions are easier to transition than others, so some players make a more imediate impact than others. Look at how long it took Reggie Bush to get going last year, and then look at how quickly MJD made an impact. Does that mean Bush wasn't as good as advertised? Or does it just mean that MJD was really, really good? Addai got better as the year progressed as well. The RB position is one that can make a more immediate impact in the NFL, while QB is not. Every-down DE is not an easy transition, either.

For the past decade, most of the #1 overall picks have been QBs. Most of those QBs did not start thir first year as the 1st team QB. Of those that did, I think only Peyton Manning has been a resounding success. Vick and the other Manning have been up and down, and Couch and Carr were busts. Alex Smith is looking good, but he sat for the first half of his first season. Leaf, while a #2, was also a bust. Carson Palmer sat a year.

So, I guess people are more willing to accept a project at QB than other positions, unless you happen to be a fan in Houston, in which case your perception is probably skewed by the Carr debacle. A number one pick should be the most polished, electrifying, can't miss prospect.............especially if that prospect is not a QB. The number one pick should be the BPA, not a pick take solely on need........especially if your not going to take a QB.

OK, I am officially rambling now, but my answer to your question is Yes.

The Russell pick doesn't hold as much water in this discussion, because the man pulling the trigger was Mr. Al Davis, a dinosaur who falls in love with arm strength.

I would really hate for this franchises offseason moves be compared to the Radiers, but again it was that bad under Charlie. (I mean Al Davis did destroy the hell out of uncle Charlie in the PBust trade. :bat: )

Historyhorn
08-21-2007, 11:41 AM
I've just wanted to see some dominant play this pre-season. Last year with the foot and being a rook, I'd have liked to see him tear it up, but was content with flashes and hoping for some dominance this year.

I've watched him specifically in the two pre-season games. I saw both in person (that was a long drive to Phoenix) and then saw the replays on NFL network and recorded both.

The troubling thing for me is not necessarily the stat line. Stats can be mis-leading at times. The thing that worries me is that when healthy, he isn't even troubling the guys he is going against. Against the Cards, he was handled with relative ease and wasn't really a factor. I saw one really blatant hold, but aside from that, Mario did not threaten. What I saw mostly was him engaging the OL and then turning to chase the run play or being pushed wide and behind the QB on a pass play. For a guy his size and strength, he ought to be a handful for any single OL and begin to command chips and double teams. The only time they rolled protection to his side was when the routes and playside action demanded it. We should be seeing OT's having to work their butt off to stay with him and that's just not occurring right now. He's pretty much a non-factor.

For a number one overall pick, he should be giving some headaches even if not making spectacular highlight plays. I haven't given up yet, but I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever see the player who is supposed to help us put Peyton on his butt a bunch in order to compete in this division.

Go Texans

real
08-21-2007, 11:46 AM
I've just wanted to see some dominant play this pre-season. Last year with the foot and being a rook, I'd have liked to see him tear it up, but was content with flashes and hoping for some dominance this year.

I've watched him specifically in the two pre-season games. I saw both in person (that was a long drive to Phoenix) and then saw the replays on NFL network and recorded both.

The troubling thing for me is not necessarily the stat line. Stats can be mis-leading at times. The thing that worries me is that when healthy, he isn't even troubling the guys he is going against. Against the Cards, he was handled with relative ease and wasn't really a factor. I saw one really blatant hold, but aside from that, Mario did not threaten. What I saw mostly was him engaging the OL and then turning to chase the run play or being pushed wide and behind the QB on a pass play. For a guy his size and strength, he ought to be a handful for any single OL and begin to command chips and double teams. The only time they rolled protection to his side was when the routes and playside action demanded it. We should be seeing OT's having to work their butt off to stay with him and that's just not occurring right now. He's pretty much a non-factor.

For a number one overall pick, he should be giving some headaches even if not making spectacular highlight plays. I haven't given up yet, but I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever see the player who is supposed to help us put Peyton on his butt a bunch in order to compete in this division.

Go Texans

I agree.

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 12:57 PM
Yeah I repted ya on that one. Look there is reason to be concerned. He isn't doing it. Even John Lopez has figured that out. The coach says he's working on it. Kalu says he's working on it. But unlike Mr Lopez I ain't ready to scape him off the bumper yet and throw away the goo in a body bag. They over valued Travis Johnson, they over valued Jason Babins...therefore Mario is going to be a bust also because at this point in time he isn't producing up to our expectations. Doesn't work like that. If anyone knew the answer to flip on the "on" switch I'm sure you could book an appointment with Mr. McNair. The numbers say it's in there. That's all I know.

infantrycak
08-21-2007, 01:13 PM
The kid played all of last year under some crazy conditions and helped us along the way.

Sadly, Mario is paying a price for being as tough as we was last year. If he had just gone to the bench for the last 8 games instead of toughing it out without being able to practice, more folks would write last year off.

infantrycak
08-21-2007, 01:16 PM
Or when DD said he was going to rush for over 2,000 yards in his second year on the show I,Max.

Just for the record--DD didn't say he was going to rush for 2000 yds--he said he was shooting for 2000 combined yards. Given the fact that he had 1776 combined yards the year before, it wasn't much of a stretch.

Vinny
08-21-2007, 01:17 PM
Yes. It happens all the time. JaMarcus Russell this year, for example. He's not ready to play. He's a project. That's what "they" said about Vince Young....till he played of course.

Carr Bombed
08-21-2007, 05:27 PM
Just for the record--DD didn't say he was going to rush for 2000 yds--he said he was shooting for 2000 combined yards. Given the fact that he had 1776 combined yards the year before, it wasn't much of a stretch.

No, he didn't say combined yards. I remember that interview clear as day, Domanick Davis predicted he would RUSH for 2,000 yards. Here is another interview of him acknowledging it....

http://sports.ign.com/articles/567/567604p1.html

real
08-21-2007, 05:28 PM
No, I remember that interview clear as day, Domanick Davis predicted he would RUSH for 2000 yards. Here is another interview of him acknowledging it....

http://sports.ign.com/articles/567/567604p1.html

I always thought he said he was going to Rush for 2,000 as well...

DerekLee1
08-21-2007, 05:39 PM
I always thought he said he was going to Rush for 2,000 as well...

$2000 seems a bit steep to pay for tickets to a boring prog rock band. I, for one, don't think Geddy Lee and Neil Peart are worth it.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2007, 05:43 PM
I would say about 80%(being generous because it's probably really about 99.5%) of everyone who knew anything about footall would have picked RB or VY or would have traded down or maybe would have just flat out chose D'Brick.

Except for the reported six or more teams that had Mario Williams at the top of their board for the 06 draft (I know the Cowboys were one of them). Yup, those guys know nothing about football.

jdog
08-21-2007, 07:27 PM
The Russell pick doesn't hold as much water in this discussion, because the man pulling the trigger was Mr. Al Davis, a dinosaur who falls in love with arm strength.

I would really hate for this franchises offseason moves be compared to the Radiers, but again it was that bad under Charlie. (I mean Al Davis did destroy the hell out of uncle Charlie in the PBust trade. :bat: )

I think the Russell pick is a good comparison actually. Al Davis wasn't the only person in love with Russell. I read reports about everybody oooh'ing and ahhh'ing over Russell physical traits.

In my opinion, the powers that be have become overconfident in their systems and their science. You can't teach speed and size. So, they draft these amazing specimens of human physiology with the idea of throwing them into their "NFL player maker" and having a player ready after the timer goes off.

They need to learn the Zach Thomas principle. You can't teach heart.

b0ng
08-21-2007, 07:32 PM
I'm waiting until the end of the season to make my final decision on Mister M-dub. I think he could be really good, I think he would've already showed us if he was legendary though.

real
08-21-2007, 07:34 PM
Except for the reported six or more teams that had Mario Williams at the top of their board for the 06 draft (I know the Cowboys were one of them). Yup, those guys know nothing about football.

Hmmmm.....

Maybe those teams didn't need a Running reciever or a QB.....


Anywho....


It's quite possible that those six teams were complete idiots...You're acting like because so and so said it, it must be true....pleases....

There are many regular people walking around that could have more or equal success as some of these teams, draft wise, without all the fancy scouting..

ObsiWan
08-21-2007, 08:17 PM
Except for the reported six or more teams that had Mario Williams at the top of their board for the 06 draft (I know the Cowboys were one of them). Yup, those guys know nothing about football.

I thought we'd covered this before (we've actually covered ALL of this before)...

Anywho, I keep waiting for the folks who say, "so-and-so had Mario at the top of their board", to tell me where these six/seven so-and-so teams were picking. And like xtru said, what holes they were trying to fill? Was Mario really the guy they were going to pick no matter who else was still available? Or was he the best fit player they figured might still be around when their turn came?

Errant Hothy
08-21-2007, 08:27 PM
Maybe, maybe not (as to if the average joe on teh street could draft better then a paid FO); but I will always trust the GM's/FO's in the NFL over posters on a message board (yes that even includeds Casserly).

The Cowboys were one of the teams' with Mario at the top of their board; and they could have used VY or Reggie at the time (J Jones was not thought of that highly heading into last season, and Bledsoe was the starting QB).


I just think it is way to warly to write off Mario, espically when you factor in that he was the youngest player in his draft, played through a very painful injury, still occasionaly produced on teh feild and lost about half a year of practice.

I'm done talking Mario till atleast week 3 into the season...till then y'all have fun.

real
08-21-2007, 08:35 PM
I just think it is way to warly to write off Mario

Is it too early to form an opinion ?

I understand some of you guys wanting to reserve judgement, but if there are things that I personally see that have me worried should I supress those thoughts ?

Errant Hothy
08-21-2007, 08:58 PM
Is it too early to form an opinion ?

I understand some of you guys wanting to reserve judgement, but if there are things that I personally see that have me worried should I supress those thoughts ?

No, and this comment isn't aimed at you; but some people are acting like he is no better then Courtney Brown, I've read that he should be cut, and there seems to be real venom being flung at Mario.

Does he deserve that yet?

Second Honeymoon
08-21-2007, 09:01 PM
$2000 seems a bit steep to pay for tickets to a boring prog rock band. I, for one, don't think Geddy Lee and Neil Peart are worth it.

Rush Rules!!!

their last show sucked though. too much new Rush and not enough classics. Most of their new stuff is borderline Queer Eye or aging Dino Rock.

It was pretty non-hetero if you ask me. They didn't even play ANY of 2112!! *loads gun*

Koolaid Time
08-21-2007, 09:06 PM
No, and this comment isn't aimed at you; but some people are acting like he is no better then Courtney Brown, I've read that he should be cut, and there seems to be real venom being flung at Mario.

Does he deserve that yet?

After today's Chronicle story, I can't tell if the slams are attempts to motivate Mario to try harder or the Chronicle sports writers are back to their old stirring up garbage tactics.

Porky
08-21-2007, 09:49 PM
****BULLETIN****
http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/Mario%20Williams%20lost%20pic.JPG
MISSING: one DE. May respond to the names "Mario" or "Super Mario"

Where's Mario? If you have seen a #1 overall pick DE, please send him home. He's lost and probably doesn't know where he is. We are all very worried about him. If found, please call or send him home. We would offer a reward if found, but we gave all of our money to him when we drafted him as the #1 overall pick. Mario, please come home.




* original source (http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/2007/08/an_illusion_or_the_realdeal_1.html)

Koolaid Time
08-21-2007, 09:55 PM
****BULLETIN****
http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/Mario%20Williams%20lost%20pic.JPG
MISSING: one DE. May respond to the names "Mario" or "Super Mario"



I'm going to make some milk cartons like this for the tailgate Saturday.

powerfuldragon
08-21-2007, 09:59 PM
$2000 seems a bit steep to pay for tickets to a boring prog rock band. I, for one, don't think Geddy Lee and Neil Peart are worth it.
you should get rep for that.

Texanmike02
08-22-2007, 12:58 AM
2. McNair's: Mr. McNair switched to Mario to be #1 pick of first round. No one else had him rated that high. What was Mario supposed to say, "Uh, no thanks." to all the money?



Just wrong, more misinformation for everyone. There were several teams, according to several different teams, that said Mario was on the top of the board. He was definately the highest rated defender on the board and at the top of (9 i think) several teams boards. These teams may have been wrong, and he may not have been the best player but rewriting history just to suit your argument???

Mike

Carr Bombed
08-22-2007, 01:30 AM
Maybe, maybe not (as to if the average joe on teh street could draft better then a paid FO); but I will always trust the GM's/FO's in the NFL over posters on a message board (yes that even includeds Casserly).

I would not go that far, you give Charlie WAY TOO MUCH CREDIT.

Lets look at some of the main moves that I remember being questioned AS SOON AS THEY WENT DOWN, so there is no hindsight factor.

Giving up a 2nd round pick (a pick that would of been the first pick of the second round) in the supplementary draft. Remember Tony Hollings was a safety that converted to RB........honestly what GM in his right mind gambles on a project RB with a high second round pick in the damn S. draft like that.

next

Trading away another 2nd, + 3rd, and 5th round picks to a divisional rival no less to move up a couple of spots (back into the first round) to select Jason Babin. This is another move that was ripped to shreads right after it happened on this board and again illustrating that Charlie does not value draft picks what so ever.

next after Charlie somewhat redeems himself with pulling a fast one on the Cowboys,

He trades away a 2nd and extra 3rd to Al Davis for a freaking previous 1st round bust...........another move ripped apart by fans and again uncle Charlie throwing away picks.

Next

The pickup of Travis Johnson when you know without a doubt every fan on this board wanted Derrick Johnson and were so shocked he fell into the Texans lap, they thought it was a layup, but instead it was another brick by Charlie.

Now on to some of his FA acquissions............oh screw it I've already waisted enough time on Charlie.

I will give him credit for the 2006 draft, because I don't think the decision to take Mario was his doing and the man had a excellent draft, but...........

That does not change the fact that I think anybody with a lick of football knowledge and knowledge about prospects coming out of college, with the resources available to a professional talent evaluator could of done a better job than Charlie.

How many "charlie" picks are left on this team. (because of production and earned spots, not because of gaping holes and lack of talent (which is caused by blowing and throwing away picks)

The only picks Uncle Charlie ever hit on (outside of 2006) were gimmies like Andre and Dunta + a good second round pick in Pitts, and a couple of sprinkled gems like DD, Mathis, and Faggins............thats all we have to show for his first 5 years of craptitude.

leebigeztx
08-22-2007, 03:57 AM
I think the people who calls williams a bust doesn't know football at all. I don't think they see the protection slides. I remember last year when everyone was talking about the tight end from washington, sellers blocking mario. No one ever mentioned that sellers is basically 6'3 280lbs. I dont care if mario doesn't break the all time sack record. The only thing i hope he does is be a consistently good football player for the texans and make thei defense top ten. If they win games and he makes a impact or as coach like to say be disruptive, what more do you want? If reggie bush turns out to be eric metcalf, then what? If vy turns out to be randall cunningham, then what? I'm just saying that at the end of the season, i expect mario to be 55tkls and 8-10 sacks on a top 10 defense. If the offense can score some points and the defense stops the run on 1st and 2nd downs, he will get a chance to get sacks. Thats the reason freeney had 1/2 more sacks than the rookie williams. teams lined-up andran the ball on indy and they couldn't stop it till the playoffs. People just needs to relax. Now after next season he doesn't do anything, then bust would start to enter my vocab

Errant Hothy
08-22-2007, 08:38 AM
Carr Bomb,

I know Cass's record, as every Texans fan does, and my point wasn't that he is/was a good GM. My point was I would trust the opinion of any GM over the opinion of the average person on the street. And yes that would included Cass, the man made mistakes and he also made some good calls (I don't hold passing on D Johnson against the team, now if you has said Jamaal Brown I'd agree; but I still feel that in the long run TJ will be a better pick then DJ, and please lets not re-hash this I have gone round and round with alot of people here on this subject..it's reached the point where we have to agree to disagree).

Please, nobody take this as me saying that Cass was a good GM, or that he didn't need to go...he did and like most fans I feel that Charlie's departure marked a huge turn back into the right direction for the team. But if/when given the choice between average NFL fan on the street and Casserlay...I'll always go with Cass. Yes, I know that puts me well into the minority.

bigbrewster2000
08-22-2007, 08:43 AM
So, we are 7 pages into this thread and we still haven't been able to get everybody on a side yet?

Big sigh. We will never be satisfied one way or the other.

Errant Hothy
08-22-2007, 08:45 AM
So, we are 7 pages into this thread and we still haven't been able to get everybody on a side yet?

Big sigh. We will never be satisfied one way or the other.

Of course not a) were people, and b) were fans. You'll never get a consensus on any issue. :D

:fans:

Errant Hothy
08-22-2007, 09:02 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.

bigbrewster2000
08-22-2007, 09:07 AM
Of course not a) were people, and b) were fans. You'll never get a consensus on any issue. :D

:fans:

Oh yeah, sorry I forgot where I was for a minute there:drool:

bigbrewster2000
08-22-2007, 09:09 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.

of course not A) they are people B) they are fans........oh wait no they are not, they are Longhorn Alums :shades:

badboy
08-22-2007, 09:22 AM
Just wrong, more misinformation for everyone. There were several teams, according to several different teams, that said Mario was on the top of the board. He was definately the highest rated defender on the board and at the top of (9 i think) several teams boards. These teams may have been wrong, and he may not have been the best player but rewriting history just to suit your argument???

MikeDid you hear anyone before the draft on ANY team say Mario would be the number 1 pick? My comment said no one had him ranked #1 pick. Not the first pick of their selection. Big difference. The #32 team could have had him #1 for their selection at #32 in first round. Not what I said.

dalemurphy
08-22-2007, 09:30 AM
Did you hear anyone before the draft on ANY team say Mario would be the number 1 pick? My comment said no one had him ranked #1 pick. Not the first pick of their selection. Big difference. The #32 team could have had him #1 for their selection at #32 in first round. Not what I said.

According to pro scouts, about 1/4 had Mario rated number one. Tony Dungee and Bill Parcels both indicated they would've taken him number one. By the way, nobody had Vince Young rated number one. As a matter of a fact, he was in most cases the second or third QB on most boards.

This season, when Vince throws for 125 yds a game, completes barely 50% of his passes, and throws more ints. than TDs- it will be interesting to hear how he's defended. Of course, those were his numbers last year too. The difference this year, is Travis Henry and a collection of fortunate circumstances won't be there to give the team a winning record. Those stats won't look so good with a 5-11 record.

Errant Hothy
08-22-2007, 09:32 AM
Did you hear anyone before the draft on ANY team say Mario would be the number 1 pick?

No team gives honest info about their board before the draft, the info about Mario being at the top of several team's board came out either Sunday or Monday after the draft.

My comment said no one had him ranked #1 pick. Not the first pick of their selection. Big difference. The #32 team could have had him #1 for their selection at #32 in first round. Not what I said.

Jerry Jones was one of those who said that Mario was at the top of their board, and I also know that Jones said the Cowboy's rank all players on their boards, regardless if the think they are going to be their or not.

DBCooper
08-22-2007, 09:40 AM
$2000 seems a bit steep to pay for tickets to a boring prog rock band. I, for one, don't think Geddy Lee and Neil Peart are worth it.

Blasphemy!

infantrycak
08-22-2007, 09:52 AM
Did you hear anyone before the draft on ANY team say Mario would be the number 1 pick? My comment said no one had him ranked #1 pick. Not the first pick of their selection. Big difference. The #32 team could have had him #1 for their selection at #32 in first round. Not what I said.

As others have said, after the draft there were reports that 7 (I believe rather than 9) teams had Mario #1 on their board and the remainder all had Bush #1 with Mario #2. Fine, maybe the Texans should have taken someone else but there really isn't a basis for saying the Texans were out of step with the rest of the league by more than one spot in evaluating Mario. Hey, the whole league makes mistakes at times--no reason to change it to a singular Texans mistake.

bigbrewster2000
08-22-2007, 10:03 AM
As others have said, after the draft there were reports that 7 (I believe rather than 9) teams had Mario #1 on their board and the remainder all had Bush #1 with Mario #2. Fine, maybe the Texans should have taken someone else but there really isn't a basis for saying the Texans were out of step with the rest of the league by more than one spot in evaluating Mario. Hey, the whole league makes mistakes at times--no reason to change it to a singular Texans mistake.

And with that post we should now move forward and stop :deadhorse:

There is defiantly nothing left to add here.

Brando
08-22-2007, 10:08 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.

What if Vince was here and was having the same Pre-Season as he is now?(slapping a teammate,being suspended for a game,and a poor performance against the Patriots)

Interesting question. Sounds like he has done more than Mario this Preseason.

BTW, if we had better production from the QB spot last year against the Titans, we would have swept them. Of course that's JMO.

Come on Mario, let's get some QB pressure this week.

badboy
08-22-2007, 10:11 AM
Maybe I was reading the info wrong. I think when a team ranks players on their board, it is for who they would draft if that player is available at their selection. In other words if Green Bay drafts # 5 who do they hope will be available at that pick? That player is ranked #1 on their board for their team. I do think teams have an idea who will be selected in a certain order by other teams. What I thought I heard and read was teams saying if Mario was available when that team drafted he would be selected. If a team has a great running back, their # 1 pick on their board would probably not be a RB.

Brando
08-22-2007, 10:13 AM
As others have said, after the draft there were reports that 7 (I believe rather than 9) teams had Mario #1 on their board and the remainder all had Bush #1 with Mario #2. Fine, maybe the Texans should have taken someone else but there really isn't a basis for saying the Texans were out of step with the rest of the league by more than one spot in evaluating Mario. Hey, the whole league makes mistakes at times--no reason to change it to a singular Texans mistake.

Exactly.

Like the Cowboys drafting Julius Jones instead of Steven Jackson.
Now you can include Mike Vick. What if they just stood pat and drafted LT?
The Packers drafting Mandarich instead of Barry Sanders?
There's more examples out there, that's just a few.

bayshorebevo
08-22-2007, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.


What if Vince was here and was having the same Pre-Season as he is now?(slapping a teammate,being suspended for a game,and a poor performance against the Patriots)

Interesting question. Sounds like he has done more than Mario this Preseason.

BTW, if we had better production from the QB spot last year against the Titans, we would have swept them. Of course that's JMO.

Come on Mario, let's get some QB pressure this week.

After watching every play he made in college (& admittedly being a homer), I wanted VY and figured they would take him after his Rose Bowl performance. It took me a couple months to get over the fact that they were taking RB instead. VY doesn't enter into the equation because the FO said they were positive that Kubiak could turn DC into a great quarterback because he had the talent and his problems were due to the previous coaching staff. Most of the Texan fans figured we would take RB and nobody at all thought of Mario. Everybody, the media included, thought that mentioning Mario out of the blue a couple of days before the draft was just a negotiating ploy by the FO. Vince was already out of the picture. How many of you out there had Mario penciled for the overall #1?

TK_Gamer
08-22-2007, 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.




After watching every play he made in college (& admittedly being a homer), I wanted VY and figured they would take him after his Rose Bowl performance. It took me a couple months to get over the fact that they were taking RB instead. VY doesn't enter into the equation because the FO said they were positive that Kubiak could turn DC into a great quarterback because he had the talent and his problems were due to the previous coaching staff. Most of the Texan fans figured we would take RB and nobody at all thought of Mario. Everybody, the media included, thought that mentioning Mario out of the blue a couple of days before the draft was just a negotiating ploy by the FO. Vince was already out of the picture. How many of you out there had Mario penciled for the overall #1?

I honestly had Mario #1 and Fergusson #2 if we traded down. this was actually before the release of the info on Bush's family and the money allegations. After I heard that, it only confirmed my board. If you all remember there were many knocks against both Bush (flashy, cant take a hit) and Young(played in a custom shotgun offense, bad delivery) That was the first thing that made me think Mario. Then Kubiak even brought up his name and I pretty much knew he was our pick if we didn't trade down. Ofcourse that was my big shock, that NOONE wanted to trade up. All that hype over Bush and NOONE wanted to trade up for him. But the media still bashed us when we passed on him, even though all the other teams apparently passed on him too.

infantrycak
08-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Maybe I was reading the info wrong. I think when a team ranks players on their board, it is for who they would draft if that player is available at their selection. In other words if Green Bay drafts # 5 who do they hope will be available at that pick? That player is ranked #1 on their board for their team. I do think teams have an idea who will be selected in a certain order by other teams. What I thought I heard and read was teams saying if Mario was available when that team drafted he would be selected. If a team has a great running back, their # 1 pick on their board would probably not be a RB.

I won't claim to say every team, but my understanding is most teams go through the exercise every year of a complete top to bottom ranking as a scouting exercise and because you have to rank players all the way through to project where you believe players should land and where there is value.

Mr teX
08-22-2007, 11:05 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.

Nope, he would've got the "home grown" benefit of the doubt, or people would've been calling out kubes for offensive playcalling or something along those lines.

Either way though, my opinion about VY as a ball player or person wouldn't have changed, i just would've had to take 1 for the team.

Carr Bombed
08-22-2007, 11:43 AM
Carr Bomb,

I know Cass's record, as every Texans fan does, and my point wasn't that he is/was a good GM. My point was I would trust the opinion of any GM over the opinion of the average person on the street. And yes that would included Cass, the man made mistakes and he also made some good calls (I don't hold passing on D Johnson against the team, now if you has said Jamaal Brown I'd agree; but I still feel that in the long run TJ will be a better pick then DJ, and please lets not re-hash this I have gone round and round with alot of people here on this subject..it's reached the point where we have to agree to disagree).

Please, nobody take this as me saying that Cass was a good GM, or that he didn't need to go...he did and like most fans I feel that Charlie's departure marked a huge turn back into the right direction for the team. But if/when given the choice between average NFL fan on the street and Casserlay...I'll always go with Cass. Yes, I know that puts me well into the minority.

and I would still take a educated fan's (not the average street fan) opinion, but I guess to each his own.

If you think about it, a fan could of done what Charlie did, because Charlie really didn't make decisions..........he was a yes man. I think he listened too much to his coach (which I think is the reason for the huge turn around in his draft selections once Capers left and Kubiak came aboard) and his scouts. Anybody could go in there and just put together a draft board with players their coach wants and players their scouts sold to them hook line and sinker.

DBCooper
08-22-2007, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Hoth-Boy
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?


Quarterbacks get 4-5 years before they're considered busts around here.

God knows I'm guilty of that one.

Dan B.
08-23-2007, 12:05 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

Well Vince was suspended for one game so far this year and was treated like a rag doll in the other, so I'm guessing all these people saying we need to drop Mario immediately for his poor preseason would have to advocate trading VY as well. After all, two crappy preseason games means you are an immediate bust, right?

FWIW, Bush isn't exactly tearing it up in preseason either. I guess Bush must have the same motivational issues as Mario. Or his team realizes preseason don't mean ####. One or the other.

Joe Texan
08-23-2007, 12:33 AM
VY lovers put a sock in it. This debate is as old as a cowpies superbowl.

Drop the what ifs and lets play some football

mexican_texan
08-23-2007, 01:03 AM
I'm on the side that hopes for the best with Mario and the Texans. Screw VY, he's a Titan. Move on dammit, it's been over a year already. You can complain about Okoye now.

JohnsonFan
08-23-2007, 01:12 AM
the memory of us passing on whom we shall not name will always haunt us

ObsiWan
08-23-2007, 01:26 AM
the memory of us passing on whom we shall not name will always haunt us

not if we make the Super Bowl before they do.... and since they ain't made it yet, this race ain't over ...you folk can throw in the towel if you like; I'm not.
:texflag:

Wolf
08-23-2007, 01:32 AM
the memory of us passing on whom we shall not name will always haunt us

wow, just wow

Wolf
08-23-2007, 01:38 AM
not if we make the Super Bowl before they do.... and since they ain't made it yet, this race ain't over ...you folk can throw in the towel if you like; I'm not.
:texflag:
yep many "great" players (even if we crown them now before they have done anything) don't make it to the big game.
time will tell

DBCooper
08-23-2007, 08:19 AM
not if we make the Super Bowl before they do.... and since they ain't made it yet, this race ain't over ...you folk can throw in the towel if you like; I'm not.
:texflag:

me neither.

beerlover
08-23-2007, 02:34 PM
nobodys mentioned DC Richard Smith. whats his track record for devolping linemen? who has he mentored with as much talent as Mario & Amobi? not to mention the complimentary players around him, just how good are they? lots of questions still to be answeared before drawing concrete conclusions :shades:

Historyhorn
08-24-2007, 10:41 AM
A caller on 610 just had a good hypothetical, if VY had been drafted instead of MW; and if VY struggling as much as Mario would Vince be getting the same amount of flack as Mario?

I'll always believe that some people will never get over the drafting of Mario over Vince, no mater how well Mario ever plays.

If VY were in a Texans uniform and struggled as much as Mario, he'd be getting more crap than Mario because of all of the Texas haters out there. In addition, there'd still be the passing of Bush that would give fodder for those critical of a struggling VY in Houston.

Don't believe me, just look at the vitriol spewed on these boards about anything Vince does.

The fact is Vince isn't here. He didn't struggle. Bush isn't here and he didn't struggle. Leinart isn't here and he didn't struggle. Mario is here and he did struggle.

At this point, I'll take even mediocre performance from Mario with above average play from our galaxy of stars on the D-line.

Go Texans

infantrycak
08-24-2007, 10:45 AM
The fact is Vince isn't here. He didn't struggle. Bush isn't here and he didn't struggle. Leinart isn't here and he didn't struggle.

Depends on your definition of struggle and what you expect from rooks at each position.

bigbrewster2000
08-24-2007, 10:50 AM
If VY were in a Texans uniform and struggled as much as Mario, he'd be getting more crap than Mario because of all of the Texas haters out there. In addition, there'd still be the passing of Bush that would give fodder for those critical of a struggling VY in Houston.

Don't believe me, just look at the vitriol spewed on these boards about anything Vince does.

The fact is Vince isn't here. He didn't struggle. Bush isn't here and he didn't struggle. Leinart isn't here and he didn't struggle. Mario is here and he did struggle.

At this point, I'll take even mediocre performance from Mario with above average play from our galaxy of stars on the D-line.

Go Texans
psht please

sigh.....spoken like a true longhorn fan. The only longhorn haters around here are aggie fans. And you know darn well most of the "vitriol spewed on the boards" has more to do with people trying to justify Vince not being here than anyone blatantly hating on the longhorns.

Specnatz
08-24-2007, 11:02 AM
the memory of us passing on whom we shall not name will always haunt us

Well they do have a site you can goto if you really feel that way. Go ahead because I have no memory of anything other than the Texans and who is on the team now.


:texflag: :fans: :d:

Historyhorn
08-24-2007, 11:34 AM
psht please

sigh.....spoken like a true longhorn fan. The only longhorn haters around here are aggie fans. And you know darn well most of the "vitriol spewed on the boards" has more to do with people trying to justify Vince not being here than anyone blatantly hating on the longhorns.

Coogs, Owls, Sooners, Bayou Bengals, and any other old SWC alums who have made their way to H-Town.

I agree that folks have hung onto the shoulda taken Vince for too long, but there is a hell of a lot of Schaudenfreud for that dude on this board. As a Texas alum, I want to see him do well except for two games a year, when I'd like to see us hang fifty on them.

Go Texans