PDA

View Full Version : Z-report:Mario Williams - I'm not panicking, I'm just being honest


Wolf
08-19-2007, 11:51 PM
When it comes to Mario Williams it looks like the two camps are dividing into "everything is all right - chill out" and "the sky is falling". At least that is how each group paints the other group. With respect to my man John McClain, I have to disagree with his article last week. It IS okay to start questioning whether or not Mario is going to ever be a star and I'll tell you why in just a second.

For those of you who have heard me on the radio or read my writing in the "View From the Sideline" newsletter or here on this blog, you know I'm not the type to jump to conclusions. I don't freak out over guys coming around slowly - if they "flash" from time to time.

I don't think the sky is falling, but I also haven't seen Mario flash (really stand out over a relative period of time) since he's been a Texan with the exception of the New York Giants game last year. The question is why.

I'm not labeling the guy a bust. I think every player needs up to three years to show whether or not they will live up to their advanced billing while some players show it earlier. Once a player has shown that ability, he gets another couple of years to take the next step. Steve Francis and David Carr "flashed" from time to time with Francis playing at a higher level than Carr, but neither was able to make the next step by five years in.

Mario is a physical freak and yet he doesn't physically dominate clearly inferior talent. He went up against Mike Gandy on Saturday and didn't even really muster much of a pass rush. Mike-freaking-Gandy? I had an NFL scout call me who I don't talk with all that often and he said "Mario looks like he's 'just a guy' out there." It isn't good to be called "just a guy" if you are a 5th round pick. It's really bad if you were the first pick of the draft.

In his press conference Sunday, Gary Kubiak said that one of the things that Mario has to do is have a better understanding of down and distance so that when it is a passing situation he really pins his ears back. That's football IQ, folks... or lack thereof. It isn't necessarily the most important thing for a defensive lineman, but if he doesn't have that, you would like for him to have a great motor and/or tremendous pass rushing skills.

Here is how I see it. Mario's motor is average. If his motor was great do you think average tackles in this league would be able to stick with him considering his quickness and strength? The answer is no. As for pass rushing skills, he's still stuck on bull rush and Kubiak even acknowledged in the press conference that to be a puss rusher in the NFL you have to have a variety of pass rushing moves.

The scariest thing that the Texans face right now (and I'm not sure if they are willing to even entertain the notion yet) is that there is a possibility that Mario Williams doesn't have a burning desire to be great. He hasn't shown that type of intensity and ability to impose his will yet and those are two things to look for. If he doesn't have a burning desire to be great, his ceiling will be much lower than the Texans and their fans have hoped for.

Mario's play is a concern to me but there are plenty of good things from last night and I'll give you my opinion of everything I saw in the game on the Monday morning podcast.


http://blogs.chron.com/fantasyfootball/2007/08/post_21.html

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 12:57 AM
yeah, he pretty much sums it all up. i agree 100%.

one thing we know is that if he starts to play well the crowd will really get behind him. last year at the colts game he practically got a standing ovation for his forced fumble. we need more of that or to at least have team success or Mario would really be on the hotseat.

If he doesnt shape up Kubes probably owes it to the rest of the team to demote him and put someone in there that can get to the QB and actually be a factor. Give him a few regular season games and if he looks anything close to what he has looked like in preseason, he needs to get the hook. let him compete for playing time like everyone else. it seems that the moment we take Mario out and put in someone else, the defense seems to get after the QB better. Maybe its my imagination...i dunno.

*scratches head*

HJam72
08-20-2007, 01:43 AM
Yep, that's about how I feel. I'm completely unhappy with Mario, and mad at the organization for spending a #1 pick on him, but I'm nowhere near ready to call him a "bust" yet.

As far as making him earn his position in the starting lineup, that should've happened from day 1. I don't care where somebody was drafted, we need the best "right now" players on the field when the games start to count, although Babin is probably better right now than he was last year.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
08-20-2007, 02:18 AM
Although highly unlikely, I'd like to see them play Mario on the left side and let Babin start on the right side since Anthony Weaver is out. We have nothing to lose anyways and Weaver didn't exactly blow us away with his play last season. If it works out and helps improve our passrush then bite the bullet and have Weaver rotate in at left defensive end and defensive tackle once the real season begins. Babin has stepped his game up so far this preseason so why not reward him?

BattleRedToro
08-20-2007, 05:50 AM
Babin has stepped his game up so far this preseason so why not reward him?

In addition, it might be nice to reward TJ for his improved play as well, and let him start in place of Anthony Maddox.

Errant Hothy
08-20-2007, 09:28 AM
In addition, it might be nice to reward TJ for his improved play as well, and let him start in place of Anthony Maddox.

Can't do that, most everybody here has already labeled TJ a bust, and we all know that some posters word is law. And we all know no player can get better over time...I mean c'mon everybody but us stupid people already know that Mario is a bust (I mean c'mon he's played 20 NFL games and had maybe 8 full weeks of practice, who needds more time then that).

real
08-20-2007, 09:47 AM
I disagree with Lance...

Look at this video: Oh what a short and selective memory we have (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4231491774497520207&q=Mario+Williams&total=141&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

also notice in the video, on that last play Mario wasn't the one being doubled...Babin was...

Mario is capable....I've seen him do some good things on the field...

He could get away with his style of play at the other DE position...If he could be on the side TE's side consistently he would be made to look so foolish in space...he could use his mass to take on the TE and the Tackle and he'd be one of the better SDE pass rushers...Sorta like what Anthony Weaver does...We hardly hear this guys name called, but it's a wide perception he's a good football player...Mario is bigger stronger more athletic Anthony Weaver....

Everyone always gets caught up in whether he "is" or "isn't", or whether he sucks or is good....But that's not what it's always about...He's a good ball player that the Texans need to figure out how to use in an effective way.....atleast that's my outlook on it...

Porky
08-20-2007, 10:08 AM
To me, Mario's future is at tackle. Put him at tackle with Okoye, with Travis and Maddox spelling them from time to time. Try to make them into a Henderson - Stroud type combo.

Mario doesn't have any suddeness or initial burst at all to his game. I disagree with Lance. He is fast, but not all that quick. He only has one real move, a spin move. Usually he just tries to bull rush his man back into the QB. That might get him a couple of sacks a year, whoppde freakin doo.

I do think he plays the run pretty decently and is stout at the point of attack, and a bull rush up the middle can help the ends reach the QB, so that's why I think he should be moved to tackle sooner rather than later.

That probably won't happen because they are trying to save face, but I maintained before the draft and since that Mario is a workout warrior. I wish I was wrong in my initial evaluation and wrong now, but the truth of the matter is that I was and am right.:gun:

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 10:28 AM
I disagree with Lance...

Look at this video: Oh what a short and selective memory we have (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4231491774497520207&q=Mario+Williams&total=141&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)

also notice in the video, on that last play Mario wasn't the one being doubled...Babin was...

Mario is capable....I've seen him do some good things on the field...

He could get away with his style of play at the other DE position...If he could be on the side TE's side consistently he would be made to look so foolish in space...he could use his mass to take on the TE and the Tackle and he'd be one of the better SDE pass rushers...Sorta like what Anthony Weaver does...We hardly hear this guys name called, but it's a wide perception he's a good football player...Mario is bigger stronger more athletic Anthony Weaver....

Everyone always gets caught up in whether he "is" or "isn't", or whether he sucks or is good....But that's not what it's always about...He's a good ball player that the Texans need to figure out how to use in an effective way.....atleast that's my outlook on it...


xtru, the only reason Mario got to that QB was because the TE released out for a pass. It was a poorly designed blocking scheme and had nothing to do with Mario's ability to beat a block. your better than that xtru.

fwiw - i have never called Mario a bust yet, but he is well on his way to earning that title.

real
08-20-2007, 10:36 AM
xtru, the only reason Mario got to that QB was because the TE released out for a pass. It was a poorly designed blocking scheme and had nothing to do with Mario's ability to beat a block. your better than that xtru.

fwiw - i have never called Mario a bust yet, but he is well on his way to earning that title.

Did you only look at the first play ?

Look at the entire video then you will better understand....

After Mario got that cheap sack He wen't off for the rest of the series...He was coming off the line hard, he out leveraged the tackle and he was either hitting the QB or putting himself and the OT in the QB's lap....On the last play in the video Babin was doubled on the other side and Mario did a good job of getting close to the QB causing a bad throw which was almost picked off...

He did the same thing against the Giants when he got fired up and had that great series of plays....

The1ApplePie
08-20-2007, 10:41 AM
Mario's total lack of technique and football instinct are holding him back more than anything else. He isn't playing junior colleges anymore, so he can't just shove guys over.

Runner
08-20-2007, 05:14 PM
Carr received 5 years of time to prove what he had.

There is a raging debate if Mario has already proven what he has or should get another couple of years to develop.

I think it is ironic that the coaches and the fan base of the Texans have historically had far less patience than that for the development of players picked in the later rounds. It seems kind of backwards that first round picks need all this development time when late round picks had better perform immediately or else.

This lack of patience with player development has hurt this team just as badly as missed first round picks, IMO. Had they developed players with potential that were picked 3-4 years ago, they might be solid starters by now. We'll never know.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 05:26 PM
Kubiak is talking about Mario right now on 610am (http://www.sportsradio610.com/)

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 05:27 PM
Carr received 5 years of time to prove what he had.

There is a raging debate if Mario has already proven what he has or should get another couple of years to develop.

I think it is ironic that the coaches and the fan base of the Texans have historically had far less patience than that for the development of players picked in the later rounds. It seems kind of backwards that first round picks need all this development time when late round picks had better perform immediately or else.

This lack of patience with player development has hurt this team just as badly as missed first round picks, IMO. Had they developed players with potential that were picked 3-4 years ago, they might be solid starters by now. We'll never know.

runner ftw

GlassHalfFull
08-20-2007, 05:34 PM
This is my first post and I picked my screen name because I hated reading all the negative stuff. So my goal is to be optimistic.

I too wish he was setting the field on fire at this point, but donít see any reason to declare him a bust. Letís wait and see what happens in the season before trashing the guy. He has all the physical tools and I think given a chance he can develop into a special player.

76Texan
08-20-2007, 05:36 PM
How about coach Bum Phillips for honesty?

http://www.thevictoriaadvocate.com/506/story/108190.html

Vinny
08-20-2007, 05:40 PM
Lopez article...Perhaps layman's sabermetrics could shed light on where Williams is in his development.

Factor No. 1: Williams was the No. 1 overall pick in the NFL draft.

Factor No. 2: He will be paid $3.3 million this year as part of a five-year, $54 million contract.

Factor No. 3: Through two preseason games — coaches' stats notwithstanding — Williams has had zero tackles, zero assists, zero sacks, zero forced fumbles, zero fumbles recovered, zero impact.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5067216.html

76Texan
08-20-2007, 05:50 PM
We carried about 7 D-linemen at any one time last year, didn't we?
So the $15MM seems to be in line as far as its percentage of the team salary cap, doesn't it?

disaacks3
08-20-2007, 05:54 PM
Lopez article...
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5067216.html I pray he's saving it for the regular season. He's all but invisible on the field right now.

Marcus
08-20-2007, 06:18 PM
Kubiak is talking about Mario right now on 610am (http://www.sportsradio610.com/)

Did you hear the guy asking the question regarding Mario's motivation and Morlon Greenwood?

:BananaWav

Blazing Arrow
08-20-2007, 06:20 PM
Mario Williams will be a great DE ..... this is the first I have heard of anyone questioning that!

Boo this man .....

real
08-20-2007, 06:24 PM
Anyone have a recap of what Kubiak said ?

real
08-20-2007, 06:24 PM
Did you hear the guy asking the question regarding Mario's motivation and Morlon Greenwood?

:BananaWav

What did he ask about Greenwood and what did Kubiak say ?

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2007, 06:26 PM
Anyone have a recap of what Kubiak said ?

Yeah.

Please?

:includeme:

Rex King
08-20-2007, 06:39 PM
Didn't catch all of it, but basically said the same thing about Mario he did in the presser - it's not a question of motivation.

Was asked how he felt about Greenwood's play this preseason (the guy sounded like he might be a poster here) - said Morlon's been one of the most consistent performer Kube's has seen since he got here.

Also asked about WRs adjusting routes - said something about the WRs having pretty much pre-determined routes with the responsibility on the QB deciding where to go.

Marcus
08-20-2007, 06:48 PM
What did he ask about Greenwood and what did Kubiak say ?

Well, I called in with 2 part question . . .

I said, "Coach, the common theme being expressed on the media and on this radio station, is that Mario is not playing with any motivation or fire. That would seem to indicate that all that's needed was for him to be motivated, and his play would improve, like it was just that simple. Is that the case?"

His reply was that, in his view, Mario was giving 100 per cent out on the field, and Mario needed to learn and grow with the position, have more self-awareness on when to do what, depending on the situation. They followed up with what was said at the pressr, that he needed to get better at recognizing downs and yardage.

And I asked him how he rated Morlon Greenwood's play so far this preseason.

He said that Greenwood was the most consistant, reliable performing linebacker on the defense. Very quiet, not flashy, but gets the job done on every play. A followup indicated that the only the SAM position was unsettled as to who would end up the starter on opening day.

Rex King
08-20-2007, 06:52 PM
Well, I called in with 2 part question . . .


Thought so, Good questions.

Htownsportsfan
08-20-2007, 07:35 PM
How about coach Bum Phillips for honesty?

http://www.thevictoriaadvocate.com/506/story/108190.html


I love Bum! But you gotta watch out for what he says he promised us at the Luv Ya Blue pep rally we were done knocking on the door and were goona kick the Son of a bit** in next year. So be careful when you read thinbgs like this.

Defensive linemen, you can't do much with them the first year or first two years. You really can't," he said. "It takes a good defensive lineman with abilities a while to learn how to transfer that over to the pro game. Once he gets it transferred he'll be good for 15 years.

"Believe me, there's going to come a time when they're going to be real proud of that choice."


BY the way I am joking I do love bum and was proud to have him as the coach of my team and proud to say hes from Texas. I would like to have kicked the door in though!

Marcus
08-20-2007, 08:03 PM
Defensive linemen, you can't do much with them the first year or first two years. You really can't," he said. "It takes a good defensive lineman with abilities a while to learn how to transfer that over to the pro game. Once he gets it transferred he'll be good for 15 years.

"Believe me, there's going to come a time when they're going to be real proud of that choice."



Bum says be a little bit more patient. I think I could handle that.

Matt
08-20-2007, 08:34 PM
Although highly unlikely, I'd like to see them play Mario on the left side and let Babin start on the right side since Anthony Weaver is out. We have nothing to lose anyways and Weaver didn't exactly blow us away with his play last season. If it works out and helps improve our passrush then bite the bullet and have Weaver rotate in at left defensive end and defensive tackle once the real season begins. Babin has stepped his game up so far this preseason so why not reward him?

I was saying the same thing about Mario to a friend today (him playing on the other side). He's gigantic and strong, but just doesn't have that pop off the line that Peppers does. If we put him on the other side, his strength would be an asset fighting through TE/OT double teams and he would (in theory) face a slightly less talented OT.

Most importantly, however, it would give him time and reason to focus on his hands. He lacks the hand play to get OTs off of him after the bullrush or the knowledge of where to hit with his hands to really use his size advantage.

Runner
08-20-2007, 08:50 PM
His reply was that, in his view, Mario was giving 100 per cent out on the field, and Mario needed to learn and grow with the position, have more self-awareness on when to do what, depending on the situation. They followed up with what was said at the pressr, that he needed to get better at recognizing downs and yardage.


I think I'd rather it be motivation. Recognize down and distance? Maybe the tackle should give him a little tip before every snap.

This excuse, I mean reason, is even worse. They need to stop digging before the hole gets any deeper.

Honoring Earl 34
08-20-2007, 09:20 PM
I think rushing the passer is like rebounding in basketball . Charles Barkley said ... the meek will inherit the earth but they won't get the ball ( QB ).

I posted this link for anyone to look at past combine numbers .

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/players.php?genpos=DE&draftyear=2006&sortorder=tsxpos&order=ASC

Porky
08-20-2007, 09:34 PM
Maybe Lance Z isn't panicking, but as for me, I'm :panic: :sos:

real
08-20-2007, 10:22 PM
Mario's gonna get almost a whole game with game planning and the lot...

Let's see how he does this weekend....

real
08-20-2007, 10:23 PM
And I asked him how he rated Morlon Greenwood's play so far this preseason.

He said that Greenwood was the most consistant, reliable performing linebacker on the defense. Very quiet, not flashy, but gets the job done on every play. A followup indicated that the only the SAM position was unsettled as to who would end up the starter on opening day.

Just about what I expected he'd say...

Kaiser Toro
08-20-2007, 10:42 PM
I really am amazed on how shallow folks are questioning one's fire and motives when the player in question played with an injury pretty much all last season as well as being moved around continuously. Moreover, some of the senior, passionate folks on this board claim pre-season means nothing, but hold weight on his lack of performance during the pre-season.

The "I told you so's" will be fun and heated as his career progresses, from either side. Thick skinned people should only apply to this subject moving forward.

Wolf
08-20-2007, 10:48 PM
I know people have complained about the "cheap sack", but what gets me is... maybe so, but I can't imagine what people would say if he didn't get to Cullpepper ...(motivation is already in use)

seriously now ... the second sack(1/2 I should say)... geeze it gives me hope for our DL if Amobi turns into something in a few years as he grows into his body(he IS only 20) and if TJ can play well... there was no where for the QB to step up and if their was a place to step up, mario wouldn't have gotten to him

Wolf
08-20-2007, 10:58 PM
Factor No. 3: Through two preseason games ó coaches' stats notwithstanding ó Williams has had zero tackles, zero assists, zero sacks, zero forced fumbles, zero fumbles recovered, zero impact.


from lopez article that Vinny posted.

Bears game, It was hard to judge on that one, Rex was getting the ball out really really fast and I am not sure what DL could have gotten to him on that drive in a half or two drives (whatever he had)..

I know someone with video tape can probably correct me, but that was my recollection at the time.

Yet I do I understand that the DL job is to get to the QB and stop the run, and our DL in that game didn't do much

Double Barrel
08-20-2007, 11:45 PM
I really am amazed on how shallow folks are questioning one's fire and motives when the player in question played with an injury pretty much all last season as well as being moved around continuously. Moreover, some of the senior, passionate folks on this board claim pre-season means nothing, but hold weight on his lack of performance during the pre-season.

Pre-season game outcome (i.e. score) means nothing.

People losing hope because we lose a pre-season game is foolish.

However, individual performances are worthy to evaluate. It's the same performances the coach's are using, too. Think about it: how can we praise Schaub and the offense for last game, but then excuse Mario for having absolutely minimum impact? One is worthy to hold up as an example because it's positive, and the other to dismiss because it's negative? That's the definition of homer fan.

I'm nowhere near labeling the guy a 'bust' or giving up hope, but surely you could understand some very minor concerns when our head coach says "Mario was giving 100 per cent out on the field". That's not the performance you want to see as a fan if it represents "100 percent".

Is it really too much to ask for even a glimmer of the greatnes to come? idonno:

Personally, I think he's going to work out in the long run...but that's because I want/hope him to work out. But I'm not going to sport blinders if it doesn't happen sooner than later.

Htownsportsfan
08-20-2007, 11:55 PM
Anyone have a recap of what Kubiak said ?

You can catch it on podcast or even download it and save it from the audio vault at:

http://sportsradio610.com

I wait till the post it and let it play in the back ground while I read up on the days postings.

rollinstone18
08-21-2007, 12:03 AM
MAYBE Mario just isn't giving a full effort because
A. Pre-season doesn't mean ****
B. He already has the starting job
C. He wants to avoid an injury so he can begin the season healthy

Just a theory.

leebigeztx
08-21-2007, 01:07 AM
YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
1993 NYG 9 3 1 2 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0
1994 NYG 15 40 26 14 0 4.5 1 0 0 0 0
1995 NYG 15 58 50 8 5 7.5 3 0 2 56 0
1996 NYG 16 63 56 7 3 5.0 1 0 0 0 0

For everyone who already calls mario a bust, those are strahans 1st 4 yrs

Vinny
08-21-2007, 01:11 AM
YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF
1993 NYG 9 3 1 2 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0
1994 NYG 15 40 26 14 0 4.5 1 0 0 0 0
1995 NYG 15 58 50 8 5 7.5 3 0 2 56 0
1996 NYG 16 63 56 7 3 5.0 1 0 0 0 0

For everyone who already calls mario a bust, those are strahans 1st 4 yrs
Strahan was a 40th overall pick that had injuries his first two years. He played only 9 games his rookie year due to an injury and also had a knee injury that limited some of his play in his second year in the league.....just posting stats on a message board is not always a good way to make any comparisons.

JohnsonFan
08-21-2007, 01:49 AM
i wish we mario could just come out of no where and be amazing, but its not going to happen we have to give the man time he has played 1 season!

stingray
08-21-2007, 04:41 AM
I am not yet impressed by mario yet, But I will wait till mid-season to give a him a grade.

Marcus
08-21-2007, 08:01 AM
I'm nowhere near labeling the guy a 'bust' or giving up hope, but surely you could understand some very minor concerns when our head coach says "Mario was giving 100 per cent out on the field". That's not the performance you want to see as a fan if it represents "100 percent".

This "lack of motivation" or "lazyness", or "lack of fire" aspect regarding the play of not only Mario, but any player that is not performing up to expectations, is nothing but a representation of false hope among fans, that there is some kind of ''quick-fix" available, and once that "quick-fix" is made, then the problem is instantly solved. If you listen to my question carefully in the podcast, you can pick up the rhetorical slant. I knew he was going to say that Mario was giving his all on the field, and I knew that answer was going to dash the 'hopes' of some fans thinking it's just a 'motivation' thing.

The same thing applies to blaming coaches for the performance of players, the quick-fix analogy still applies.

Fans want instant results. They wanted instant results the year Jason Babin was drafted. They didn't get them, and called him a bust. They wanted instant results the year Travis Johnson was drafted. They didn't get them, and called him a bust. You can cite examples all day long about players who come in and make an immediate impact, but those are exceptions rather then the rule.

We are just going to have to accept the fact that Mario is probably going to need as much time as Babin and Johnson needed to become a good DL. You have no choice really.

I believe what Bum said. Give him a little more time, and we'll be proud of the choice. And regarding the choice over Bush or VY, I don't think it's as much Bush or VY, as it is the ghost of David Carr. We (or at least some did) gave Carr all that patience, and it never panned out, and there is that underlying fear that it will be the same in Mario's case, so therefore we don't want to have any.

As always . . . MHO.

Htownsportsfan
08-21-2007, 08:23 AM
Strahan was a 40th overall pick that had injuries his first two years. He played only 9 games his rookie year due to an injury and also had a knee injury that limited some of his play in his second year in the league.....just posting stats on a message board is not always a good way to make any comparisons.

That really does not explain his low production in year 3 & 4. All I took from his use of these numbers was DE is a postion that typically takes around 3 years to reallydevelop and make an impact. There are always exceptions to the rule, players that get draft byt teams with more tlalent etc but in general its a position that takes some time to master. Should the #1 pick take 3 years to develop, no but the Texans took him their, paid him to be a number one so he damn sure better pan out. However, I still would like to see some flash out of the guy!

dalemurphy
08-21-2007, 08:30 AM
Strahan was a 40th overall pick that had injuries his first two years. He played only 9 games his rookie year due to an injury and also had a knee injury that limited some of his play in his second year in the league.....just posting stats on a message board is not always a good way to make any comparisons.

So Vinny, if Mario's career mirrors Strahan then he'd be a disappointment since he was picked 39 picks higher? I would think that if Mario finished his career with almost 150 sacks while playing the run well then that would be satisfactory.

If you want to compare Mario to 1st overall picks then he's probably doing pretty well... Russell Maryland, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mike Vick... are a few off the top of my head that he should compare favorably to.

Mr. White
08-21-2007, 09:00 AM
I get the draft strategy. Take the top-rated defensive guy on the board at the time. Pretty common for WCO head coaches.

What I don't get is drafting a guy based on long-term potential rather than what he can offer immediately.

I have to disagree with Bum Phillips. I don't doubt that Mario has great potential, but you want immediate results from a first rounder.

real
08-21-2007, 09:07 AM
If you want to compare Mario to 1st overall picks then he's probably doing pretty well... Russell Maryland, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mike Vick... are a few off the top of my head that he should compare favorably to.

What?

I'm confused....

Is that supposed to be a good thing ?

Vinny
08-21-2007, 10:19 AM
So Vinny, if Mario's career mirrors Strahan then he'd be a disappointment since he was picked 39 picks higher? I would think that if Mario finished his career with almost 150 sacks while playing the run well then that would be satisfactory.

If you want to compare Mario to 1st overall picks then he's probably doing pretty well... Russell Maryland, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mike Vick... are a few off the top of my head that he should compare favorably to.

that's your point, not mine... I just mentioned that he was not a top ten pick along with the fact that I was stating that you can't just throw down stats and say, "look at the stats"....Strahan was injured and didn't play his first full season and had a knee injury in his second. If you want to compare Mario to Strahans production I think it is fair to say that Strahan missed 7 games his first year and had a knee injury his second....

dalemurphy
08-21-2007, 11:34 AM
that's your point, not mine... I just mentioned that he was not a top ten pick along with the fact that I was stating that you can't just throw down stats and say, "look at the stats"....Strahan was injured and didn't play his first full season and had a knee injury in his second. If you want to compare Mario to Strahans production I think it is fair to say that Strahan missed 7 games his first year and had a knee injury his second....

Right... and Mario was limited with a foot injury in year one. I think the point is valid. Some players, even great ones, take time to develop. And, one year in, is too early to be worried about Mario being a bust.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 11:41 AM
I have also heard countless protests to Mario and other Texan lineman based on Salary. Well I'm sorry but salary in professional sports usually has little to do with talent realized and everything to do with talent percieved. It is also ultimately out of the hands of the teams signing the player and based on comparisons and anual increase. Mario did not get 54 million because of who he was, but because of the slot he was picked. Sometimes you make out sometimes you don't. I would say we got a heck of deal on Demeco Ryans. That's just how it goes. It's a big lottery, and you cant win if you don't ever buy any tickets.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 11:43 AM
Now, how bout we all quit whining about things that didnt go our way and start cheering for our team and making them think we support them.

Double Barrel
08-21-2007, 11:43 AM
we have had multiple long time NFL experts state that Carr will be good.

Oh wait, wrong thread! :backsout:

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Oh wait, wrong thread! :backsout:

I wouldnt be surprised if skeptics are proven wrong on many things.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2007, 11:51 AM
I wouldnt be surprised if skeptics are proven wrong on many things.

I think TJ is starting to prove some wrong already.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 11:51 AM
One thing worries me though, eventually no player will want to come to Houston because of the ungrateful, spitefull fans.

Errant Hothy
08-21-2007, 11:53 AM
One thing worries me though, eventually no player will want to come to Houston because of the ungrateful, spitefull fans.

I don't think we are anywhere near the level of the vast majority of NY and Philly fans.

real
08-21-2007, 11:54 AM
One thing worries me though, eventually no player will want to come to Houston because of the ungrateful, spitefull fans.

Signed,





The Giants, Yankee's and Jets

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 11:58 AM
I think TJ is starting to prove some wrong already.

yes, and many have noticed. This has quieted some of the skeptics allready, but make no mistake, the first game TJ has a non-impact or gets pulled in on a draw play, and they will jump out of the woodwork to damn him.

I try to be a positive fan. I too have worries about things, I worry about our secondary, I worry about our playcalling at times. But I usually try to obstain from calling anyone a bust or saying they stink or generally being negative from short term results. I know that most players that make it this far have what it takes to succeed, the reason they all don't is as varied as can be. I think usually it's a small difference in actual talent, and moreso a difference in attitude and maturity.

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 12:15 PM
yes, and many have noticed. This has quieted some of the skeptics allready, but make no mistake, the first game TJ has a non-impact or gets pulled in on a draw play, and they will jump out of the woodwork to damn him.

I try to be a positive fan. I too have worries about things, I worry about our secondary, I worry about our playcalling at times. But I usually try to obstain from calling anyone a bust or saying they stink or generally being negative from short term results. I know that most players that make it this far have what it takes to succeed, the reason they all don't is as varied as can be. I think usually it's a small difference in actual talent, and moreso a difference in attitude and maturity.


The only problem I have with TJ is he is a third round tallent making first round money. And I base this on the fact now three years after the fact, ....he can't beat out an original fourth rounder for a starters job. They resign him at a better value I have no problem with TJ on the team in the role that fits his tallent.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 12:25 PM
the problem I have with your logic, is do we handle all our players like that? should everyones contract be renegotiated every time they don't match our percieved skill level? should we have clauses in every contract with requirements each year as to the progress they must make? did they renegotiate Jerome's contract after a pro bowl year as a top notch kick returner? did they re-do Owen Daniels contract after his great rookie year? how bout Demeco Ryans? If we used that logic he should get Mario's contract. oh wait, you may say "but that was just one year" well it was just one year for Mario too.

real
08-21-2007, 12:26 PM
The only problem I have with TJ is he is a third round tallent making first round money. And I base this on the fact now three years after the fact, ....he can't beat out an original fourth rounder for a starters job. They resign him at a better value I have no problem with TJ on the team in the role that fits his tallent.

Granted TJ has been going against second teamers, he has been out best Defensive lineman this pre-season....

IMHO, TJ is out best DT and maybe our best overall defensive lineman....

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 12:29 PM
the truth of the matter is the only one you can blame for Mario or anyone elses contract is the front office of the Texans. Once signed it is binding, and no fault of the players. they dont have a guarantee of performance, only a guarantee of earnings. then it's up to that same front office to keep the player or get rid of them. It still doesnt mean the player cant do better and the team cant win the superbowl.

2BCF
08-21-2007, 12:30 PM
One thing worries me though, eventually no player will want to come to Houston because of the ungrateful, spitefull fans.

LOL

Wow, fans & media are not allowed to critique an individual player's performance once he dons the uniform eh??

With that blind foolishness Carr would have been here for at least another 5 losing seasons.

TK_Gamer
08-21-2007, 12:33 PM
LOL

Wow, fans & media are not allowed to critique an individual player's performance once he dons the uniform eh??

With that blind foolishness Carr would have been here for at least another 5 losing seasons.

Noone ever said you couldnt criticize or critique, bashing or calling players a bust after one year is even allowed, just not good manners..

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 01:07 PM
Granted TJ has been going against second teamers, he has been out best Defensive lineman this pre-season....

IMHO, TJ is out best DT and maybe our best overall defensive lineman....

Maddox has been the rock at DT this off season...bar none. Fourth round Jags.
Well we're banging this week on Mario because he wasn't Reggie White in the box. I guess the comparison is more than apt. and since Mr. Lopez wishes to over look the circumstances in which the three under acheivers were drafted... and you brought it up. I just responded with a fact. T.J. is running second team behind Maddox.

real
08-21-2007, 01:10 PM
Maddox has been the rock at DT this off season...bar none. Fourth round Jags.
Well we're banging this week on Mario because he wasn't Reggie White in the box. I guess the comparison is more than apt. and since Mr. Lopez wishes to over look the circumstances of the three under acheivers were drafted... and you brought it up. I just responded with a fact. T.J. is running second team behind Maddox.

I don't understand what other players have to do with looking at Mario's play and forming and opinion...

What do TJ, Babin, and Okoye have to do with Mario ?

Mario doesn't have to play like Reggie White, or even get a ton of sacks in the pre-season...But he does need to look un-like trash...

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 01:22 PM
I don't understand what other players have to do with looking at Mario's play and forming and opinion...

What do TJ, Babin, and Okoye have to do with Mario ?

Mario doesn't have to play like Reggie White, or even get a ton of sacks in the pre-season...But he does need to look un-like trash...

Absolutly nothing....But becuase there is a history of selecting under achieving D-lineman, there is now a general panic on the board over Mario.

I disagree with that xt. He does have to paly like reggie white.

1. because we passed up St. Vincent and or Reggie "the king of the swamp, I am a rat " Bush. Anything less than Reggie White production will never be good enough for some on the board. They've been stomping the sour grapes for seventeen months and they ain't about to quit.

2. The numbers say that is what he is. You don't stick a 4.7 guy inside at DT. That is about the stupidist thing I've ever seen posted on these boards. You isolate the problem and you fix it. That is what the coaches are paid to do. Anything short of that is another failure. It's like saying OK we blew another d-lineman pick let's settle for mediocre. And do what next draft ? Pick another one.

We're running out of do overs.

And I'm getting GD tired of waiting untill next year for my franchise OLT.

The Pencil Neck
08-21-2007, 01:45 PM
The numbers say that is what he is. You don't stick a 4.7 guy inside at DT. That is about the stupidist thing I've ever seen posted on these boards. You isolate the problem and you fix it. That is what the coaches are paid to do. Anything short of that is another failure. It's like saying OK we blew another d-lineman pick let's settle for mediocre. And do what next draft ? Pick another one.

I disagree about putting a 4.7 guy inside at DT.

You put a guy where he plays the best. All that 4.7 means is that he runs 40 yards pretty quick when he's in a track situation. I don't care about that. A 4.7 40 doesn't mean he's got a fast first step and he should be an edge rusher.

If DT is what he plays best right now and he's the best DT we have, then play him at DT. If RDE is what he plays best right now and he's the best RDE we have, then play him there. The same with LDE. But don't put him in a position because his stats say he should play it well or because that's what you bought him for, put him in the position where he and the team can be the most successful.

Personally, I think he's going to be fine. He showed some flashes last year and I think he's smoother and has more moves so far in the preseason. He's still thinking too much and he needs to just let go more but that's really easy for me to say sitting here in front of my TV. I think he's going to get it together. It's way too early to push the panic button.

Marcus
08-21-2007, 02:53 PM
And I'm getting GD tired of waiting untill next year for my franchise OLT.

Are you sure we really need one? I think the offensive line as a whole is playing pretty good of late.

(I wonder why that could be?):rolleyes:

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 03:16 PM
I disagree about putting a 4.7 guy inside at DT.

You put a guy where he plays the best. All that 4.7 means is that he runs 40 yards pretty quick when he's in a track situation. I don't care about that. A 4.7 40 doesn't mean he's got a fast first step and he should be an edge rusher.

If DT is what he plays best right now and he's the best DT we have, then play him at DT. If RDE is what he plays best right now and he's the best RDE we have, then play him there. The same with LDE. But don't put him in a position because his stats say he should play it well or because that's what you bought him for, put him in the position where he and the team can be the most successful.

Personally, I think he's going to be fine. He showed some flashes last year and I think he's smoother and has more moves so far in the preseason. He's still thinking too much and he needs to just let go more but that's really easy for me to say sitting here in front of my TV. I think he's going to get it together. It's way too early to push the panic button.



The two lines are the lynch pin to this team. If, they struck out on d-lineman number seven....that is what we're talking about here with at DT switch for Mario, then we are the new Tampa Bay bucks. There is no 8-8 this season and we are now in the sweeps for Darrin Macfaddin. On the other hand, if he does make the switch come on, within a reasonable length of time, now we're talking 2-1 out of the bolcks and a shot at a race for the frachises first winning record. We didn't draft the guy to be a tow truck. We drafted him to be a farrari. And if he ain't a farrrari, never going to be a farrari then it was a busted pick. Like you say it's way too early. Jethro Franklin has my every confidence. This foot goes there. that foot goes here on the third stepp...you do this move. He will get it. He will not be a DT.

cuppacoffee
08-21-2007, 03:21 PM
Are you sure we really need one? I think the offensive line as a whole is playing pretty good of late.

(I wonder why that could be?):rolleyes:

Maybe because it is preseason? idonno:


The game against the boys should prove whether the addition by subtraction theory about the O line is right or not. I certainly hope so.

S.O.S. as in the past =..:thud:

Looking like a real O line = :jumpbanan

Folks...this is not your run of the mill preseason game.
Starters play longer..coaches game plan.

Some call it a "dress rehearsal" for the season.

I have all but given up hope that the D line will be of much help this year.
Make me eat crow... please...it's not all that bad in a pot of gumbo.

I will take this game as a real barometer of where this years Texans team is in the grand scheme of things.



:coffee:

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 03:25 PM
Are you sure we really need one? I think the offensive line as a whole is playing pretty good of late.

(I wonder why that could be?):rolleyes:

Well you can roll your eyes at me if you want too. But the house of cards is one card away from collapsing. And I've not banged on anyone or the o-line in a while. You think its fixed....follow the yellow brick road dorthy. And take the little dog with you too next satuday night.

Mr. White
08-21-2007, 03:35 PM
We have had multiple reputable NFL players and coaches state the first 2 years of a defensive linemans career are often disappointing.

Sounds like you're not expecting much from him this year either.

Marcus
08-21-2007, 04:00 PM
I will take this game as a real barometer of where this years Texans team is in the grand scheme of things.

Be sure and bring that pot of gumbo. Wouldn't wanna see you go hungry.

Marcus
08-21-2007, 04:04 PM
Well you can roll your eyes at me if you want too. But the house of cards is one card away from collapsing. And I've not banged on anyone or the o-line in a while. You think its fixed....follow the yellow brick road dorthy. And take the little dog with you too next satuday night.

Be sure and bring a spoon. You wouldn't want to miss out on Cupacoffee's gumbo.

cuppacoffee
08-21-2007, 04:15 PM
Be sure and bring that pot of gumbo. Wouln't wanna see you go hungry.


Won't hurt my feelings at all...I hate the boys and everyone connected with them...:bat:

I am hoping for the best also...:gotexans1

Stomp them boys.:woot:

Dark roux, lots of onions and garlic, a little chicken to go with the crow, hot sauce and lots of gummy rice...Not bad at all.

Wash it down with your favorite beverage...(sangria wine) yum yum.

Did I mention that I hate the boys...:slap:

:coffee:

threetoedpete
08-21-2007, 04:29 PM
Be sure and bring a spoon. You wouldn't want to miss out on Cupacoffee's gumbo.

I believe you'll still be searchin for the wizzard's place long befor I shove down any gumbo. The beast is coming and he's houngry. The only way I can see out of this is Wade calls off the dogs to make sure Bum's sausage sells stay strong. It's going to be ugly and it's going to get that way rather quickly.