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View Full Version : Do you really want Jacoby at # 2?


TheRealJoker
08-18-2007, 08:26 PM
I think he can develop into a fine # 2, but I think that would take away something that he might be one of the best in the league at and that's returning punts.

I think i'd prefer him to have an Antwaan Randle El esque role with us where he returns punts full time and is our slot/trick play guy. I think that might be where we get the most out of him short term.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 08:28 PM
I don't grasp the connection that says that just because a guy returns punts he must be a slot receiver. I compared him to John Taylor of the 49ers a bit a month or so ago....a tallish return man that plays the WR2 drafted in the 3rd round from a small school....the comparison is holding up so far.

rollinstone18
08-18-2007, 08:31 PM
I'd rather see him as the #2WR.

TheRealJoker
08-18-2007, 08:31 PM
I don't grasp the connection that says that just because a guy returns punts he must be a slot receiver. I compared him to John Taylor of the 49ers a bit a month or so ago....a tallish return man that plays the WR2 drafted in the 3rd round from a small school....the comparison is holding up so far.

True Vinny, but how many # 2 WRs can still perform at a high level returning punts when they're a full time # 2?

gtexan02
08-18-2007, 08:32 PM
See Reggie Bush

Basically a #2 receiver, and #2 RB, and #1 punt returner

TheRealJoker
08-18-2007, 08:34 PM
See Reggie Bush

Basically a #2 receiver, and #2 RB, and #1 punt returner

Great comparison actually.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 08:34 PM
True Vinny, but how many # 2 WRs can still perform at a high level returning punts when they're a full time # 2?
probably all of them...what is so physically exhausting about 2-4 punt returns a game? Steve Smith is the Panthers WR1 and he returns punts.

TheRealJoker
08-18-2007, 08:35 PM
probably all of them...what is so physically exhausting about 2-4 punts a game?

Before or after playing 40-50 snaps on offense?

real
08-18-2007, 08:36 PM
I want Jacoby to be our number two at some point, but just not right now...

He's got to prove he can do this in the regular season...If he has an outstanding game 1, I'd move him to the number two...and he'd still return punts...He'd get his rest when he needed it...

HJam72
08-18-2007, 08:37 PM
He's returned one punt for a touchdown in preseason, probably against 3rd string players. He's good at it, but he's not proven himself to be our Mathis of punt returns. As of right now, I'd value him more at #2, even if it does hurt his punt returns some.

mexican_texan
08-18-2007, 08:38 PM
He works as a nice compliment to the AJ and Walters duo. It's our version of Harrison-Wayne-Stokley.

real
08-18-2007, 08:38 PM
He's returned one punt for a touchdown in preseason, probably against 3rd string players. He's good at it, but he's not proven himself to be our Mathis of punt returns. As of right now, I'd value him more at #2, even if it does hurt his punt returns some.

Who has a third string special teams ? LOL....

What are you talking ? Special teams are normally made up of bench players ya know....

Rex King
08-18-2007, 08:39 PM
I'd rather have Mathis in that role - return kicks, a few trick plays.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 08:39 PM
I'd rather have Mathis in that role - return kicks, a few trick plays.

Mathis is our Kick off guy....JJ is our Punt returner.

HJam72
08-18-2007, 08:44 PM
Who has a third string special teams ? LOL....

What are you talking ? Special teams are normally made up of bench players ya know....

So, that wouldn't exactly make them starters, would it. :)

OK, so I reverse exaggerated for effect. He's still only done it once.

BattleRedToro
08-18-2007, 08:46 PM
True Vinny, but how many # 2 WRs can still perform at a high level returning punts when they're a full time # 2?

Well, you have to consider how often will the Texans' Punt Returner return a punt per game. If the Texans defense played well enough to be around the league average then the Punt Returner would get 2.25 returns a game. Last year the Texans only averaged 1.4375 returns per game. They were tied with the Colts for last place. Even the top team for Punt Returns last year, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, only averaged 3.375 returns per game. So, you see a #2WR could return punts full time as well. He just might have to sit out a play or two on a drive following a long return, that's all.

Rex King
08-18-2007, 08:50 PM
Mathis is our Kick off guy....JJ is our Punt returner.

Yeah, I know. I meant I'd rather have JJ be a real focal point of the offense and have Mathis just get a few snaps here and there.

HJam72
08-18-2007, 08:50 PM
Well, you have to consider how often will the Texans' Punt Returner return a punt per game. If the Texans defense played well enough to be around the league average then the Punt Returner would get 2.25 returns a game. Last year the Texans only averaged 1.4375 returns per game. They were tied with the Colts for last place. Even the top team for Punt Returns last year, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, only averaged 3.375 returns per game. So, you see a #2WR could return punts full time as well. He just might have to sit out a play or two on a drive following a long return, that's all.

Are you a calculus teacher or something? :shades:

TheRealJoker
08-19-2007, 12:35 AM
Well, you have to consider how often will the Texans' Punt Returner return a punt per game. If the Texans defense played well enough to be around the league average then the Punt Returner would get 2.25 returns a game. Last year the Texans only averaged 1.4375 returns per game. They were tied with the Colts for last place. Even the top team for Punt Returns last year, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, only averaged 3.375 returns per game. So, you see a #2WR could return punts full time as well. He just might have to sit out a play or two on a drive following a long return, that's all.

Ouch, went and blew my whole thread out of the water :(

JohnsonFan
08-19-2007, 12:37 AM
jacoby was a steal and diserves to be numba 2

michaelm
08-19-2007, 12:42 AM
Who has a third string special teams ? LOL....

What are you talking ? Special teams are normally made up of bench players ya know....


In preseason, there are probably a lot of guys on ST who won't be in the league a month from now...

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2007, 01:53 AM
Why do people always downplay that play? JJ has some skill, and may here should see that.

real
08-19-2007, 02:12 AM
In preseason, there are probably a lot of guys on ST who won't be in the league a month from now...

Yeah...

That's why Jacoby was returning punts against them...

Because he probably won't be in the leauge a month from now...

There are not "lots" of guys playing special teams that won't be on the roster...use your brain...Part of pre-season is getting ready for the season...They aren't going to throw out a bunch of guys who are on the fringe of making the team at that juncture in the game...


Some things are common sense...I guess this is one of those things that isn't...

MEGA SWATT
08-19-2007, 02:17 AM
I'm just glad he wears a TXN Jersey:splits:

ObsiWan
08-19-2007, 02:21 AM
He's returned one punt for a touchdown in preseason, probably against 3rd string players. He's good at it, but he's not proven himself to be our Mathis of punt returns. As of right now, I'd value him more at #2, even if it does hurt his punt returns some.

Aren't most special teams guys 2nd/3rd teamers by definition?

euro-Texan
08-19-2007, 07:27 AM
As this was the first live Texans anything that I have seen all year, due to the crappy armed forces network, I have to say that JJ was one of the most impressive things about the whole game, for both teams. I hate to talk about the intangibles or crap like that, but from what I saw, this guy debunked all of that "small school project" talk quickly and effectivly. Sure he's young and maybe still a project, but he looked to have that swagger to me. He looked like someone who could force opposing defenses to show respect and thus ease up on AJ. Isn't that what we wanted? Isn't that the whole reason we went after Moulds? All I'm saying is that if I were the cowgirls d-coord or ST coord. I would be real nervous any time JJ was lining up opposite of AJ or back to receive a punt.

HJam72
08-19-2007, 08:36 AM
Aren't most special teams guys 2nd/3rd teamers by definition?

No, some of them are starters on the special teams. :)

PS-They even play on the very first play of the game. Now that's what I call starting. :)

rmartin65
08-19-2007, 08:39 AM
He is our best #2, and should be there. Randle El was a number 2 for a season after Plaxico Burress left (they won the super bowl) and he still did well as a punt returner

HJam72
08-19-2007, 08:42 AM
He is our best #2, and should be there. Randle El was a number 2 for a season after Plaxico Burress left (they won the super bowl) and he still did well as a punt returner

Yep, that's how I feel. You're 2nd best receiver should start as a receiver, no matter what his skills are in ST. Hopefully he can handle both. He's a young buck and all that.

PS-How fair is it to not make the starting line-up as a receiver just because you are so good on ST?

Thorn
08-19-2007, 08:49 AM
As this was the first live Texans anything that I have seen all year, due to the crappy armed forces network, I have to say that JJ was one of the most impressive things about the whole game, for both teams. I hate to talk about the intangibles or crap like that, but from what I saw, this guy debunked all of that "small school project" talk quickly and effectivly. Sure he's young and maybe still a project, but he looked to have that swagger to me. He looked like someone who could force opposing defenses to show respect and thus ease up on AJ. Isn't that what we wanted? Isn't that the whole reason we went after Moulds? All I'm saying is that if I were the cowgirls d-coord or ST coord. I would be real nervous any time JJ was lining up opposite of AJ or back to receive a punt.

This is what I'm thinking. JJ (good nickname) has been impressive so far. A bit more development, and we have two killer recievers, a damn good tight end, and some very serviceable RBs. Things are looking up for the offense in a way I didn't think would happen. I am quite pleased.

Insideop
08-19-2007, 09:05 AM
I like Walter alot and think he will be a very good reciever for us, but after seeing JJ these past 2 preseason games, I really think he should get the nod for the #2 receiver. I have to admit though, when they drafted him in the 3rd round, I had my doubts about how good he would be. Maybe Smith and Kubes really do know what they are doing in the draft after all. :shades:

TK_Gamer
08-19-2007, 09:13 AM
I think Walter is a strong no.3 posession guy, JJ is a better fit at no.2 IMHO He has the "swagger" or whatever you wanna call it. He looks like he belongs more than walter does. Walter looks very mechanical, technically sound but mechanical.

Vinny
08-19-2007, 01:22 PM
all I know is that I'm finally relieved at our teams ability to find talent in the draft after two pretty good drafts and some excellent 2nd thru 4th round picks the last two years (we won't discuss our combine wonders at the top of the draft)....JJ is officially an excellent 3rd round pick. It was heavily criticized since most people never heard of him...but after a couple of games we now know why the Texans took him before a huge run of WR's in the 3rd round. Kudos to the staff

brakos82
08-19-2007, 01:26 PM
We should keep AJ on the sidelines the rest of preseason to let JJ and Walter battle it out. :shades:

beerlover
08-19-2007, 01:29 PM
the Texans biggest upgrade was the GM position.

I'm convinced if Rick Smith was in charge last year before the draft things would be even more different, but at least now the bleeding stopped :cowboy1:

ObsiWan
08-19-2007, 01:40 PM
No, some of them are starters on the special teams. :)

PS-They even play on the very first play of the game. Now that's what I call starting. :)

well, that's one way to look at it....
:shades:

GuerillaBlack
08-19-2007, 02:47 PM
We should keep AJ on the sidelines the rest of preseason to let JJ and Walter battle it out. :shades:

I agree, because we already know AJ's abilities.

hot pickle
08-19-2007, 02:49 PM
wow... did i not tell most of yall that by the end of training camp jacoby will be #2.. and alot of people thought it was stupid to draft him in the 3rd round... just watch by opening day it will be AJ and JJ tearin it up

ObsiWan
08-19-2007, 03:19 PM
I have mixed feelings about this question...

On the one hand, Jacoby has "answered the bell" whenever he's been called on to make a play. But I haven't watched the game a second time to see how his blocking is. And he could be just as much a deep threat in the slot as he would be as a #2. There's no law that says the slot guy can't go deep. In fact, that would be to our advantage, nickel backs usually aren't the same quality as CBs who cover 1's and 2's.

On the other hand, I know Walter is big enough to be an effective downfield blocker; I've watched him on running plays and he holds his own. He's not as fast as JJ, but who outside of Mathis really is? (AJ isn't in this discussion before you start shouting). And he must have some moves because he shook the DBs bad enough to get wide-a$$-open two weeks in a row. Or do y'all think he did it by out-sprinting those DBs?

For now, I think I'd leave well enough alone. ...for now.

Vinny
08-19-2007, 03:21 PM
I have mixed feelings about this question...

On the one hand, Jacoby has "answered the bell" whenever he's been called on to make a play. But I haven't watched the game a second time to see how his blocking is. And he could be just as much a deep threat in the slot as he would be as a #2. There's no law that says the slot guy can't go deep. In fact, that would be to our advantage, nickel backs usually aren't the same quality as CBs who cover 1's and 2's.

On the other hand, I know Walter is big enough to be an effective downfield blocker; I've watched him on running plays and he holds his own. He's not as fast as JJ, but who outside of Mathis really is? (AJ isn't in this discussion before you start shouting). And he must have some moves because he shook the DBs bad enough to get wide-a$$-open two weeks in a row. Or do y'all think he did it by out-sprinting those DBs?

For now, I think I'd leave well enough alone. ...for now.
as Kubiak stated....in the NFL you are going to play 3 wr's....and our top 3 are AJ, Walters and JJ.....I think the wr2 and wr3 tags don't mean much....I think those 3 guys will see the bulk of the action when we start playing for real.

Double Barrel
08-19-2007, 03:30 PM
I've always liked JJ and think he'll definitely become a no. 2 for us at some future point.

But he's still a rookie, and I'm not sure he's earned the right and has the skills required to run consistent routes in a WCO right now.

Besides, I think our TE will probably be the no. 2 in catches, so our no. 2 & 3 WRs might be interchangable depending on the situation. I think Walter has been possession ability at this point, but Jones will definitely give him some stiff competition.

ObsiWan
08-19-2007, 03:40 PM
No question when we go 3 wides, those will most likely be our guys.

But what about when we go I-formation? Are you thinking a rotation kind of set up where both guys split time?

Vinny
08-19-2007, 03:43 PM
No question when we go 3 wides, those will most likely be our guys.

But what about when we go I-formation? Are you thinking a rotation kind of set up where both guys split time?wr2bc...situational. In normal down and distance packages we likely roll out Walter early in the year. JJ will eventually win the job...it's just a matter of time.

DBCooper
08-19-2007, 03:46 PM
I like seeing the discussion turning to "competition for the #2" as opposed to "Can anyone step up to be our #2", like it was just a few weeks ago.

Refreshing.

badboy
08-20-2007, 03:37 PM
Bump. Thought I would revive this thread as we now have 2 games to evaluate.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 03:39 PM
No, i would like for him to create mismatches & with him being a rookie almost every CB (short of P-Buc) would be able to play him well. I think that he could be more effective if he's in the slot matched up against a LB or safety.

JohnsonFan
08-20-2007, 03:41 PM
jones is our most talented receiver besides andre johnson and keenan mcardell

Vinny
08-20-2007, 03:45 PM
No, i would like for him to create mismatches & with him being a rookie almost every CB (short of P-Buc) would be able to play him well. I think that he could be more effective if he's in the slot matched up against a LB or safety.if we roll out a 3 wr package, teams will generally roll out a nickel package. I doubt you will see teams try to line up linebackers on speed players.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 03:54 PM
if we roll out a 3 wr package, teams will generally roll out a nickel package. I doubt you will see teams try to line up linebackers on speed players.

It's all about the play calling my friend. Most times i feel this is true if we're in a 2nd or 3rd & long situation & teams know we have to pass, but if we don't make it predictable like we did last year with the TE's (bruener for blocking & daniels/putz for pass) we might find ourselves with that look.

Based on what i've seen from him, he could potentially create the mismatch regardless of who they put on him. We've run that end around quite a bit in the preseason so that leads me to believe Kubes plans on using his elusiveness to run the ball, just as much as he's using his speed to catch passes in the passing game.

I'm just giddy at the possibilities we'll have with him on the field!

JohnsonFan
08-20-2007, 03:55 PM
well yea jones did the end around i think2 times he did it great, he is so dang fast

Allstar
08-20-2007, 04:05 PM
jones is our most talented receiver besides andre johnson and keenan mcardell

We have yet to see Mcardell play, so I have no clue as to where you would get that idea, unless you know something we don't.

badboy
08-20-2007, 04:59 PM
Throw in a tight end and a pass to a RB occasionally and we can move the chains. Using Mathis and Jones on end arounds seems to eat up yardage and should help AJ also. The speed of our team is a new factor for defenses. As others have said, our offensive package should be something to see once it goes into effect 100%.

threetoedpete
08-20-2007, 05:10 PM
probably all of them...what is so physically exhausting about 2-4 punt returns a game? Steve Smith is the Panthers WR1 and he returns punts.

I'll bet you a coke on this one Vinny. They pile the kid up he will fade in November...supposedly when we're making a playoff push. Steve Smith is a veteran and has learned how to prepare for a NFL season. You can have JJ as a playmaker and a punt retruner or you can have him as your WR2. You can't do both. The odds for a rookie taking on that load are against it being successful. Hester may not make the transition. And Smith....does not return punts every situation. they have an extray PR guy on the rooster Just so he isn't required to do it. I just think it is patently foolish and impatient to force the kid to carry that much load this early. Find a diamond in the rough and the first thing you're going to do with it is see how quick you can break it ? This logic Makes no sense to me.

threetoedpete
08-20-2007, 05:31 PM
wow... did i not tell most of yall that by the end of training camp jacoby will be #2.. and alot of people thought it was stupid to draft him in the 3rd round... just watch by opening day it will be AJ and JJ tearin it up

All of this is acedemic. Kubiak is not going to stick a rookie WR out at WR2. He isn't going to do it. So how many targets did the WR2 get last year vs PR's handled ? if he's getting six to eight targets a game in the slot and returning punts what's the difference ? There is no need to force a raw rookie into the pressure cooker. It's smiply foolish. '07 is not the last football season we're ever going to see.

76Texan
08-20-2007, 05:38 PM
This is what I'm thinking. JJ (good nickname) has been impressive so far. A bit more development, and we have two killer recievers, a damn good tight end, and some very serviceable RBs. Things are looking up for the offense in a way I didn't think would happen. I am quite pleased.

He autographed as J.J.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 05:53 PM
All of this is acedemic. Kubiak is not going to stick a rookie WR out at WR2. He isn't going to do it.He started a rookie at MLB, LT, RB and at TE last year pards.....what makes wr2 so unique?

threetoedpete
08-20-2007, 05:57 PM
He started a rookie at MLB, LT, RB and at TE last year pards.....what makes wr2 so unique?

The play book and the conditioning.

Specnatz
08-20-2007, 06:04 PM
The play book and the conditioning.

Do What? Are you saying the play book is harder for a WR than it is for a RB to know not only running assignments and blocking assignments? or the TE?

Now to me that just does not make any sense as an expination.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 06:11 PM
I thought he was referring more to the fact that the playbook is probably 10x's the size it was at Lane College.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 06:12 PM
he's just trying to back up a goofy assertion...its pretty obvious that Kubiak isn't afraid to start a rookie if he earns it.

Errant Hothy
08-20-2007, 06:13 PM
The play book and the conditioning.

I'm not sure the playbook has anything to do with it, espically in light that Kubiak started a rookie at MLB (who usually needs to know all of the defensive playbook).

hadaad
08-20-2007, 06:14 PM
I thought the question was along the lines of "Do you want to see him start right away or let him learn behind KW as the #3 for awhile". Do I want him at #2 at all? Of course I do. If he proves he deserves it, I want him on the field as much as possible.

Edit: How many years did Troy Brown return punts for the Patriots, being their best receiver? And he also played D-back a bit. The best players play as much as possible, period.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 06:18 PM
If I were scoring at home:
Jones: 2
Walter: 0

threetoedpete
08-20-2007, 06:24 PM
Do What? Are you saying the play book is harder for a WR than it is for a RB to know not only running assignments and blocking assignments? or the TE?

Now to me that just does not make any sense as an expination.

Well I don't know the ex TSU guy who's the head coach for lane college. But I'd wager that his play book is just a tad smaller than Kubiak's playbook. I'll also wager and don't know for a fact that Owens Daneil's wasn't completely up to parr with that monster untill mid season. I'll also wager that running all out full bore competing against NFL tallent as compared to what the tallent level which showed up every saturday at Division III lane college will be just a little bit different. What I'm saying there is a starked difference in being forced to do something than having an option not to do it. And yes there is a reason Rookie WRs struggle their first season. It's rare that they don't. He's not a loose canon in the slot. He will be at the 2. KW knows the playbook and the kid does not . And it's a big difference running the seam against a tampa two than it is being the 2 and having to read a defense on the fly and knowing how to adjust your route and being where the QB expects you to be.
The term raw means spomething. As I posted Kubiak isn't going to do this unless three guys drop down stone cold dead.

mexican_texan
08-20-2007, 08:29 PM
he's just trying to back up a goofy assertion...its pretty obvious that Kubiak isn't afraid to start a rookie if he earns it.
I think he's made it clear that he'll play whoever earns it, regardless of age or experience or smell.