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Hookem Horns
08-18-2007, 04:38 PM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/08/18/snap.judgments/index.html

He completed only 51.5 percent as a rookie, and a source within the league told me recently that one reason the Titans don't really need great receivers on their roster is because Young can't be counted on to put the ball in their hands anyway.

BattleRedToro
08-18-2007, 04:52 PM
I think this season is going to be a rude awakening for the Golden Boy. Opposing Defensive Coordinators now know what to expect from him and will have better plans to expose his an his team's weaknesses.

Hookem Horns
08-18-2007, 04:59 PM
As much as I loved this guy at UT, I would be lying if I denied that I was rooting for him to fail. Besides playing for the team I hate the most, I am sick and tired of all the VY Titan hype here in Austin. Friends of mine who were rooting for the Texans before now hate the Texans and are now rooting for the Titans. One of them just bought NFL Sunday Ticket just to see them every week. However that may not be necessary since CBS affiliate here started showing the Titans in lieu of the Texans last season. I also noticed our local Wal Mart is carrying Titans crap and they have NEVER carried Texans merchandise. VY stinking it up would put an end to most of this.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 06:12 PM
well, he had better stats than John Elway in his rookie year (47.5% completions 7TD's and 14 INT's)....so I don't think that Elway had such a bad career. People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

BattleRedToro
08-18-2007, 06:30 PM
well, he had better stats than John Elway in his rookie year (47.5% completions 7TD's and 14 INT's)....so I don't think that Elway had such a bad career. People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

Oh, I watched some of his games and I was unimpressed.:devilpig:

Vinny
08-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Oh, I watched some of his games and I was unimpressed.:devilpig:

yeah...but all of us know you only do biased homer takes.:pirate:

infantrycak
08-18-2007, 07:40 PM
People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

Maybe so, but he had a rough outing against NE. He wouldn't have had a stat line but for Scaife going on an 80 yd scamper after a 3 yd pass.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 07:42 PM
Maybe so, but he had a rough outing against NE. He wouldn't have had a stat line but for Scaife going on an 80 yd scamper after a 3 yd pass. yeah but constantly going on and on about rookie stats that were better than John Elways stats gets old to those of us who follow football closely and historically.

TexansLucky13
08-18-2007, 07:47 PM
yeah but constantly going on and on about rookie stats that were better than John Elways stats gets old to those of us who follow football closely and historically.

Here's an observation that requires no stats whatsoever. Once VY loses his speed, he will be at best a second rate QB in this league.

If he wants to be a career QB, he needs to work on his throwing. I doubt even you can argue with that.

CloakNNNdagger
08-18-2007, 07:48 PM
well, he had better stats than John Elway in his rookie year (47.5% completions 7TD's and 14 INT's)....so I don't think that Elway had such a bad career. People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

Vinny, the difference is that Elway was an accomplished passer in college who didn't really show the stuff he already had in the NFL until later.

In his four seasons (19791982) at Stanford, he completed 774 passes for 9,349 yards and 77 touchdowns. Stanford had a 20-23 record during his tenure. His 24 touchdown passes in 1982 led the nation, and he graduated with nearly every Stanford and Pacific-10 career record for passing and total offense.

Elway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Elway#College)

infantrycak
08-18-2007, 07:53 PM
yeah but constantly going on and on about rookie stats that were better than John Elways stats gets old to those of us who follow football closely and historically.

All I was trying to say was he didn't look very good yesterday.

Yes off the wall comparisons can get off the wall. There is too much history in the NFL--you can always find some goofy comparison.

Oh and I don't think VY has earned the right to have his name in the same sentence as Elway's yet.

Vinny
08-18-2007, 07:56 PM
eh...cloak, VY had some pretty impressive stats his last year at UT....you may want to look them up. anyway...I need to go make some tea or something.:specnatz:

BattleRedToro
08-18-2007, 09:21 PM
yeah...but all of us know you only do biased homer takes.:pirate:

I am not a :homer:. I just don't think Vince Young is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I guess in your book that makes me a :homer:.

Vinny
08-19-2007, 04:13 AM
I am not a :homer:. I just don't think Vince Young is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I guess in your book that makes me a :homer:.
my perception of you probably rests more in the several years of you trying to tell us David Carr was a stud despite all the evidence to the contrary.

there are worse things than being a homer...so don't take it so hard.

Grams
08-19-2007, 05:18 AM
Maybe so, but he had a rough outing against NE. He wouldn't have had a stat line but for Scaife going on an 80 yd scamper after a 3 yd pass.


But according to his coach it was the field that was wet, the weather, people in his face.

http://www.nfl.com/trainingcamp/story?id=09000d5d80195032&template=with-video&confirm=true

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2007, 07:40 AM
But according to his coach it was the field that was wet, the weather, people in his face.

http://www.nfl.com/trainingcamp/story?id=09000d5d80195032&template=with-video&confirm=true


.............and he had a wet diaper.:backsout:

Silver Oak
08-19-2007, 08:09 AM
Whatever the Pats have done to vince in their last two games, you bet will be studied by other teams around the league. They pretty much shut him down as far as being a running threat and forced him to throw.

The titan fans who do watch every game of his are pretty unanimous that he needs to work on his passing accuracy. Is that just a rookie thing or is it more of an arm mechanics/delivery problem? Only time will tell.

BattleRedToro
08-19-2007, 09:01 AM
my perception of you probably rests more in the several years of you trying to tell us David Carr was a stud despite all the evidence to the contrary.

there are worse things than being a homer...so don't take it so hard.

I never used the word stud to describe David Carr, but I admittedly was slow to criticize him and attributed more of the offense's trouble to the O-Line then you did.

Runner
08-19-2007, 09:14 AM
Maybe so, but he had a rough outing against NE. He wouldn't have had a stat line but for Scaife going on an 80 yd scamper after a 3 yd pass.

Brady didn't look to good either. Maybe he's on the downside of his career too. :)

Koolaid Time
08-19-2007, 09:18 AM
Here's an observation that requires no stats whatsoever. Once VY loses his speed, he will be at best a second rate QB in this league.

Vince better get his slide move down... Someone will nail him HARD this season.

You are right, you take out his wheels and Vince is a journeyman QB

Runner
08-19-2007, 09:27 AM
I've read on this board that some posters theorize that some Texans players look bad because they are using vanilla schemes during preseason while the other teams are using more complex "real game" schemes. Therefore, I found this interesting:


"I think it was a combination of things the (wet) weather, the surface, people in his face," Fisher said Saturday. "The approach that the Patriots took defensively was a unique approach. They brought people (in pass rush) almost every down from different places, dropped different people out in coverage.

"We went out in this game with a very basic game plan. We had not put ourselves in position to try to take advantage of those things."


http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070819/SPORTS01/708190402/1027

Second Honeymoon
08-19-2007, 11:18 AM
well, he had better stats than John Elway in his rookie year (47.5% completions 7TD's and 14 INT's)....so I don't think that Elway had such a bad career. People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm


yup. all the stat losers seem to be haters, morons, and lack any real insight into what it really takes to be an effective player.

I even read some loser say that VY shouldnt have been OROY. That is just hating, plain and simple. The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9. That is unheard of for a rookie and yet still people hate on him. I don't like VY because he is a Titan but the people that say he sucks or is an ESPN creation are just ignorant to the fact that VY looks like a damn good NFL QB even after just 3/4 of a season. He isn't your traditional QB but that is what makes him special. He throws an ugly ball, lacks accuracy at times, and sometimes makes bad decisions. The thing about him is that when the money is on the line and you got a 3rd down to keep a drive alive, he is about as hard to defend as any player in the history of the NFL. He also has an innate ability to inspire his teammates and make the players around him better and just win.

VY was far and away the best Offensive Rookie last year. Most of these naysaying 'mensas' are the same guys who propped up Carr as something more than an abortion of a QB. Their opinion is completely without merit or credibility. Now they act like they knew it all along but we all know the truth. The list of Texans fans that actually knew Carr sucked is a very short list....the guys who thought he was great are the same losers who hate on VY and say he sucks too.

VY may struggle this year but it won't be because it sucks, it will be because of growing pains, gameplanning defenses, average passing accuracy, and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.

Wolf
08-19-2007, 11:32 AM
yup. all the stat losers seem to be haters, morons, and lack any real insight into what it really takes to be an effective player.

I even read some loser say that VY shouldnt have been OROY. That is just hating, plain and simple. The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9. That is unheard of for a rookie and yet still people hate on him. I don't like VY because he is a Titan but the people that say he sucks or is an ESPN creation are just stupid and/or retarded.

VY was far and away the best Offensive Rookie last year. Most of these naysaying 'mensas' are the same guys who propped up Carr as something more than an abortion of a QB. Their opinion is completely without merit or credibility. Now they act like they knew it all along but we all know the truth. The list of Texans fans that actually knew Carr sucked is a very short list....the guys who thought he was great are the same losers who hate on VY and say he sucks too.

VY may struggle this year but it won't be because it sucks, it will be because of growing pains, gameplanning defenses, average passing accuracy, and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.

BTW pac-man contributed heavily to those wins

wow and the lack of talent is because he will struggle...

:ok:
over
marice drew,colston?

The Dream
08-19-2007, 01:34 PM
yup. all the stat losers seem to be haters, morons, and lack any real insight into what it really takes to be an effective player.

I even read some loser say that VY shouldnt have been OROY. That is just hating, plain and simple. The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9. That is unheard of for a rookie and yet still people hate on him. I don't like VY because he is a Titan but the people that say he sucks or is an ESPN creation are just stupid and/or retarded.

VY was far and away the best Offensive Rookie last year. Most of these naysaying 'mensas' are the same guys who propped up Carr as something more than an abortion of a QB. Their opinion is completely without merit or credibility. Now they act like they knew it all along but we all know the truth. The list of Texans fans that actually knew Carr sucked is a very short list....the guys who thought he was great are the same losers who hate on VY and say he sucks too.

VY may struggle this year but it won't be because it sucks, it will be because of growing pains, gameplanning defenses, average passing accuracy, and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.

rep coming your way........

Silver Oak
08-19-2007, 02:04 PM
yup. all the stat losers seem to be haters, morons, and lack any real insight into what it really takes to be an effective player.

I even read some loser say that VY shouldnt have been OROY. That is just hating, plain and simple. The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9. That is unheard of for a rookie and yet still people hate on him. I don't like VY because he is a Titan but the people that say he sucks or is an ESPN creation are just stupid and/or retarded.

VY was far and away the best Offensive Rookie last year. Most of these naysaying 'mensas' are the same guys who propped up Carr as something more than an abortion of a QB. Their opinion is completely without merit or credibility. Now they act like they knew it all along but we all know the truth. The list of Texans fans that actually knew Carr sucked is a very short list....the guys who thought he was great are the same losers who hate on VY and say he sucks too.

VY may struggle this year but it won't be because it sucks, it will be because of growing pains, gameplanning defenses, average passing accuracy, and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.

I'm one of those guys who supported Carr when he was here, not because of his play on the field, but because of the uniform he wore while on the field. Based on the qb play I've seen in TC and in the two preseason games, I can admit you were correct in your criticism of Carr and call for his dismissal from the team.

On the other hand, for you to call those who doubt vy's abilites as "stupid or retarded" is not a very friendly attitude to take in this forum.

You seem like a pretty football intelligent guy, and most of your insights are good to read, but name calling is b.s.

You know...we just could be right about vince and you could be wrong. Will you man up and admit to your mistakes if so?

Second Honeymoon
08-19-2007, 02:19 PM
I'm one of those guys who supported Carr when he was here, not because of his play on the field, but because of the uniform he wore while on the field. Based on the qb play I've seen in TC and in the two preseason games, I can admit you were correct in your criticism of Carr and call for his dismissal from the team.

On the other hand, for you to call those who doubt vy's abilites as "stupid or retarded" is not a very friendly attitude to take in this forum.

You seem like a pretty football intelligent guy, and most of your insights are good to read, but name calling is b.s.

You know...we just could be right about vince and you could be wrong. Will you man up and admit to your mistakes if so?

I changed some of the wording. Sometimes I can get a bit cranky especially after watching Mario sleepwalk his way through another game.

As for admitting I was wrong, I never have a problem doing that. I didn't like the Jacoby Jones pick and boy do I like wrong on that one so far.

I was also wrong in thinking that Plummer was going to be brought in as a temporary fix at QB with Sage backing him up. Count me happy that we got a possible long term fix in Schaub and didn't resort to Handball Professional Jake 'The Snake' Plummer.

Boy I hope that OL keeps looking this good. It's like watching a different team altogether. I absolutely love it.

Dunta looked inspired too and even took a shot at the offenses of the past.

Double Barrel
08-19-2007, 02:24 PM
He completed only 51.5 percent as a rookie

And he still swept us.

I hate to say it, but the Titans could have a 2-14 season and you know which two games those wins would be....

Obviously I hope the exact opposite, but still.

Vinny
08-19-2007, 02:25 PM
Carr had a high completion %...he must be really awesome!

Brando
08-19-2007, 02:32 PM
Carr had a high completion %...he must be really awesome!

He also set the consecutive completion record.:sarcasm:

BTW I haven't seen caddy around. I wonder why?

Lucky
08-19-2007, 02:32 PM
...and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.
Word. When Bo Scaife is your goto guy, it's gonna be a loooooong year.

P.S. Bo Scaife just rocketed up in my fantasy TE rankings.

Double Barrel
08-19-2007, 02:33 PM
Carr had a high completion %...he must be really awesome!

And he had a high QB rating, which means everything!....or nothing, depending on how you look at it. :worm:

Silver Oak
08-19-2007, 03:37 PM
...and once again a vy thread has been changed to include Schaubs predecessor.

Lord let this madness end!

Second Honeymoon
08-19-2007, 05:31 PM
Word. When Bo Scaife is your goto guy, it's gonna be a loooooong year.

P.S. Bo Scaife just rocketed up in my fantasy TE rankings.

yup. its all Bud Adams fault too. He is too cheap and too stubborn to keep a real football guy like Floyd Reese employed and then hires some hack of a GM to throw away a golden opportunity of an offseason.

VY won't be there long and it wouldn't surprise me if the Titans arent there much longer anyway. LA Titans anyone? To have the 2nd lowest payroll in the NFL is just embarassing for a 'playoff contender'. It's just Bud being Bud. Fat. Ugly. Cheap. Mangy Rat lives on his head.

CloakNNNdagger
08-19-2007, 06:40 PM
yup. its all Bud Adams fault too. He is too cheap and too stubborn to keep a real football guy like Floyd Reese employed and then hires some hack of a GM to throw away a golden opportunity of an offseason.

VY won't be there long and it wouldn't surprise me if the Titans arent there much longer anyway. LA Titans anyone? To have the 2nd lowest payroll in the NFL is just embarassing for a 'playoff contender'. It's just Bud being Bud. Fat. Ugly. Cheap. Mangy Rat lives on his head.

That mangy Rat that lives on his head may opt to move out too.

TEXANRED
08-19-2007, 06:57 PM
well, he had better stats than John Elway in his rookie year (47.5% completions 7TD's and 14 INT's)....so I don't think that Elway had such a bad career. People make way too much out of stat lines (especially rookie QB stat lines), and don't watch enough real football for their opinions.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ElwaJo00.htm

yup. all the stat losers seem to be haters, morons, and lack any real insight into what it really takes to be an effective player.

I'm confused, are you calling Vinny a loser for using stats?

Oh and F.Y.I. Carr had better rookie stats than both VY and John Elway.

I even read some loser say that VY shouldnt have been OROY. That is just hating, plain and simple. The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9. That is unheard of for a rookie and yet still people hate on him.
There you go, calling people names again. Guess since I am a loser that doesn't matter to you. Unfortunately all you are seeing is eight out of nine but he started fourteen games and Travis Henry shredding opposing teams defenses had nothing to do with it. Or Pac-Man Jones clutch kick returns, or the defense stepping up (inspired by Pac-Man) and dominating a few of those eight games.

Nothing to do with it, nothing at all.

I don't like VY because he is a Titan but the people that say he sucks or is an ESPN creation are just ignorant to the fact that VY looks like a damn good NFL QB even after just 3/4 of a season.
Maybe b/c he is? For the same reason that ESPN promotes Bush as a running back when he is a punt returner and a slot receiver and does not even start for his own team?

I guess cus all those losers are right?
He isn't your traditional QB but that is what makes him special. He throws an ugly ball, lacks accuracy at times, and sometimes makes bad decisions.
Why would the Texans have drafted him then? We already had a QB with all those same qualities?

He sounds awesome, lets make him rookie of the year. Oh, never mind.

The thing about him is that when the money is on the line and you got a 3rd down to keep a drive alive, he is about as hard to defend as any player in the history of the NFL. He also has an innate ability to inspire his teammates and make the players around him better and just win.
He inspires his team mates to sleep in there own bed.

VY was far and away the best Offensive Rookie last year. Most of these naysaying 'mensas' are the same guys who propped up Carr as something more than an abortion of a QB. Their opinion is completely without merit or credibility. Now they act like they knew it all along but we all know the truth. The list of Texans fans that actually knew Carr sucked is a very short list....the guys who thought he was great are the same losers who hate on VY and say he sucks too.
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

Marques Colston was the best Offensive rookie last year and Matt Leinart was the best rookie QB last year.

VY may struggle this year but it won't be because it sucks, it will be because of growing pains, gameplanning defenses, average passing accuracy, and most importantly, lack of talent around him. That Titans roster is embarassing.

Wow you sound like a Carr homer. Its not Carr's fault, its the lack of talent around him.

So how does it feel to have the shoe on the other foot?

Second Honeymoon
08-19-2007, 08:49 PM
I'm confused, are you calling Vinny a loser for using stats?

Oh and F.Y.I. Carr had better rookie stats than both VY and John Elway.


There you go, calling people names again. Guess since I am a loser that doesn't matter to you. Unfortunately all you are seeing is eight out of nine but he started fourteen games and Travis Henry shredding opposing teams defenses had nothing to do with it. Or Pac-Man Jones clutch kick returns, or the defense stepping up (inspired by Pac-Man) and dominating a few of those eight games.

Nothing to do with it, nothing at all.


Maybe b/c he is? For the same reason that ESPN promotes Bush as a running back when he is a punt returner and a slot receiver and does not even start for his own team?

I guess cus all those losers are right?

Why would the Texans have drafted him then? We already had a QB with all those same qualities?

He sounds awesome, lets make him rookie of the year. Oh, never mind.


He inspires his team mates to sleep in there own bed.


WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!

Marques Colston was the best Offensive rookie last year and Matt Leinart was the best rookie QB last year.



Wow you sound like a Carr homer. Its not Carr's fault, its the lack of talent around him.

So how does it feel to have the shoe on the other foot?

yawn....another VY hater spreads his wings. you may want to check your facts though.

We all saw what stats mean to a QB. To the casual fan, Carr seemed to be doing just fine by reading a stat line but anyone unfortunate enough to actually watch a game....well lets just say stats can be quite misleading.

Colston > Young?!?!?! are you freaking kidding me? Please renew your VY Hatership card, k? Leinart better than Young last year? Cmon now. Maybe for a fantasy geek. While you are at it please renew your Bush Hatership card as well. Bush wasn't Pro Bowl last year, much less HOF like ESPN totes him as, but he had a damn good year helping the Saints go from 2-14 to the NFC Championship Game.

'he inspires everyone to sleep in their own bed'. When you repeated that back to yourself in your mind, did you actually think that was funny or witty? Young hasn't had the greatest offseason (nor have the Titans) but to slam someone for sleeping is just laughable. He was disciplined but VY Hater must bring that up like its some sort of VY Kryptonite.

Carr lack of talent around him? What lack of talent? Same OL and I wonder why the OL looks 100% better. Maybe its because Carr was a big poosy and no one wanted to go to war with him and Carr had horrible pocket presence. The lack of talent argument doesnt hold water over a 5 year period....well at least it doesnt hold water for anyone with a brain and the ability to be objective and formulate an honest opinion not poisoned with college allegiances or plain old jealousy.

In summation, VY may have a tough year due to his own problems and some of the problems with his team. But to argue that VY didn't have a good year last year and didn't deserve OROY is just insane and outs you as a hater, Aggie and/or Horn hater.

Wolf
08-19-2007, 09:15 PM
fyi drew brees did more for the saints than anyone else

colston did less than Young.. wow ...I am not hating on young but Colston would have been hands down rookie of the year if not for injury. Marice jones drew had a good season too

Young, who I do like.. probowl....NFL and marketing at it's best (when others in front of him didn't go) who best to raise the interest in NFL.. a guy that took UT on his shoulders and win National championship ..then goes to probowl as a rookie. brings interest to NFL.. take the burnt orange glasses off for a second.. if you took the name out of the stats and said "This guy is going to pro-bowl" y'all would have laughed

qb rating of 66; percentage completion of 51.5 12 td's and 13 ints .
AFC mind you
15th in afc in qb rating,16th in percentage completion,12th in yards,9th in TDs,7th most in INTs

rushing #1 for QB's,7 rushing TD's #1 in afc..

Is that afcpro bowl material?

come one.. can anyone really say Vince was incredible for rookie of the year?

I want Vince to succeed and he IS a leader for a team and I cannot deny the confidence he inspires in a team and it is unmessureable. but he has work to do to become an elite QB.. but sometimes I think Carr supporters and vince supporters are in the same mold....except Carr supporters gave 5 years (me included) and vince supporters have one season to crown him

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/byposition?pos=QB&conference=AFC&year=season_2006&sort=18&timeframe=All

like I always have said I hope young,bush and williams become good...it is good for the league and I absolutely would love for Williams to become a beast and Young to become a beast.. I would love the chess match on 2 sundays a year between the two teams


Here is to young to a legit probowl bid in 2007 and williams/ryans to a legit probowl bid also :toast2:

TEXANRED
08-19-2007, 09:22 PM
yawn....another VY hater spreads his wings. you may want to check your facts though.

We all saw what stats mean to a QB. To the casual fan, Carr seemed to be doing just fine by reading a stat line but anyone unfortunate enough to actually watch a game....well lets just say stats can be quite misleading.

Colston > Young?!?!?! are you freaking kidding me? Please renew your VY Hatership card, k? Leinart better than Young last year? Cmon now. Maybe for a fantasy geek. While you are at it please renew your Bush Hatership card as well. Bush wasn't Pro Bowl last year, much less HOF like ESPN totes him as, but he had a damn good year helping the Saints go from 2-14 to the NFC Championship Game.

'he inspires everyone to sleep in their own bed'. When you repeated that back to yourself in your mind, did you actually think that was funny or witty? Young hasn't had the greatest offseason (nor have the Titans) but to slam someone for sleeping is just laughable. He was disciplined but VY Hater must bring that up like its some sort of VY Kryptonite.

Carr lack of talent around him? What lack of talent? Same OL and I wonder why the OL looks 100% better. Maybe its because Carr was a big poosy and no one wanted to go to war with him and Carr had horrible pocket presence. The lack of talent argument doesnt hold water over a 5 year period....well at least it doesnt hold water for anyone with a brain and the ability to be objective and formulate an honest opinion not poisoned with college allegiances or plain old jealousy.

In summation, VY may have a tough year due to his own problems and some of the problems with his team. But to argue that VY didn't have a good year last year and didn't deserve OROY is just insane and outs you as a hater, Aggie and/or Horn hater.

First let me start out by saying you should probably stop with the brainless stuff due to the fact that you talk out of your keaster more than anyone on this board. I think we have talked about this before.

Now let me get down to the meat and potatoes of my point.

Marques Colston as a seventh round draft pick caught 70 balls for 1038 yards for 14.8 yards a catch and eight touchdowns. Colston a number 2 rookie receiver out performed and produced more than A.J. last year.

Leinart is a better QB. Did you watch any of the game yesterday? He reads coverage, makes quick decisions, is calm in the pocket, and has pin point accuracy. The same thing he did last year as a rookie. You didn't happen to notice any of that yesterday did you? There are reasons why Leinart won two national championships and the heisman.

The Carr lack of talent ref was all the people who said Carr was good but did not have any talent around him and that it was all the coaching. Kinda sounds like all you Young lovers. In fact, the next time you use an excuse as to why Young is failing ask yourself if this was the same excuse the Carr lovers where using. Cus the lack of talent is one of them. In fact, the Elway stat I used to use in favor of Carr and Vinny used to shoot me down. Funny how I am seeing it used in the same manor in favor of Young.

My other point is you cant keep quoting stats that support your point and then flame stats that knock you down. Make up your mind.

And I am not hating on Bush, but seriously, who hypes a bench player? He is not a starter! He is not the best running back or the best player on his team. Who cares about Reggie friggin Bush.

Young sleeping in his own bed and breaking team rules is just the first sign that Young has bought into his own hype.

I don't even really consider myself as a Hater, you play like Joey Harrington then you deserve to be called Joey Harrington.

Now if this were Rugby, he is the man. But its not, its the NFL and if you cant throw the ball and your a QB.....................draw your own conclusions.

You Young lovers are worse than the Carr lovers. At least we could use the excuse he was a Texan, but to have a man crush on a guy who plays for your division................................

Hookem Horns
08-19-2007, 09:39 PM
How can any Texan fan want Vince Young to succeed? If it is because of what he did for UT, I have a news flash, he no longer plays for the Horns. Root for Colt McCoy now, not VY. VY succeeding means Bud Adams succeeding and the Texans failing. How can you root for that?

Hey, I was one of the most vocal about wanting the Texans to draft the guy, but I would rather be proven wrong by having the Titans losing and the Texans winning instead of just having the right to say "I told you so". I was right about Carr and that is enough "I told you so" for me.

gg no re
08-19-2007, 09:41 PM
Personally I'd try to support VY because he is to Bud Adams as Anakin Skywalker is to Senator Palpatine.

disaacks3
08-19-2007, 09:52 PM
The guy made so many damn plays and won 8 games in a span of 9...VY looks like a damn good NFL QB even after just 3/4 of a season. He also has an innate ability to inspire his teammates and make the players around him better and just win.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little...

VY didn't win those 8 games, the Titans did. I'll give him the Texans game (here) as HIS. If you're trying to sell people on games he looked REALLY bad in as HIS victories, you better go watch the tape of those games again.

He didn't look like a "Damn Good" anything last year, except a good $$$-maker. 10 highlight-reeel plays vs. many more SORRY ones doesn't make for a great QB, especially when his best plays were usually with his feet.

He's a fantastic athlete & will sell lots of jerseys, but unless he lears how to be an effective pocket-passer, his career (as a starter) is gonna be awfully short.

I didn't think he deserved the OROY then & I still don't think he deserved it NOW.

Wolf
08-19-2007, 09:54 PM
How can any Texan fan want Vince Young to succeed? If it is because of what he did for UT, I have a news flash, he no longer plays for the Horns. Root for Colt McCoy now, not VY. VY succeeding means Bud Adams succeeding and the Texans failing. How can you root for that?

Hey, I was one of the most vocal about wanting the Texans to draft the guy, but I would rather be proven wrong by having the Titans losing and the Texans winning instead of just having the right to say "I told you so". I was right about Carr and that is enough "I told you so" for me.

well I want him to succeed (not against the Texans) because for the good of the NFL... I honestly enjoyed the chess match of the mid '80's of giants with LT and the Cowboys

I hope to see the same thing with Williams/ryans versus Young and White..

I hated the Steelers but boy it got me going with Campbell versus the Steel Curtain.

Htownsportsfan
08-19-2007, 10:02 PM
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little...

VY didn't win those 8 games, the Titans did. I'll give him the Texans game (here) as HIS. If you're trying to sell people on games he looked REALLY bad in as HIS victories, you better go watch the tape of those games again.He didn't look like a "Damn Good" anything last year, except a good $$$-maker. 10 highlight-reeel plays vs. many more SORRY ones doesn't make for a great QB, especially when his best plays were usually with his feet.

He's a fantastic athlete & will sell lots of jerseys, but unless he lears how to be an effective pocket-passer, his career (as a starter) is gonna be awfully short.

I didn't think he deserved the OROY then & I still don't think he deserved it NOW.


I could not agree more. One of my favorite of VY's victories is in week week 15 against Jacksonville where he threw for a whopping 85 yards ! Their damn defense returned three thats right three turnovers for Td's. How you can spin that to be thanks to vince I will never know. By the way you cant put me in the hater club. I wne tot the Rose Bowl to root the Madison grad on and have an autographed picture of his scoring run on my office wall. However it would not bother me at all if he makes the pro bowl every year as long as its on a losing team in TN. I like Vince but I hate the Titans more!

HoustonFrog
08-19-2007, 10:08 PM
I think I just threw up in my mouth a little...

VY didn't win those 8 games, the Titans did. I'll give him the Texans game (here) as HIS. If you're trying to sell people on games he looked REALLY bad in as HIS victories, you better go watch the tape of those games again.

He didn't look like a "Damn Good" anything last year, except a good $$$-maker. 10 highlight-reeel plays vs. many more SORRY ones doesn't make for a great QB, especially when his best plays were usually with his feet.

He's a fantastic athlete & will sell lots of jerseys, but unless he lears how to be an effective pocket-passer, his career (as a starter) is gonna be awfully short.

I didn't think he deserved the OROY then & I still don't think he deserved it NOW.


I don't even know where to start on this thread....except to preface it that I didn't go to UT and I didn't want to draft VY.

Your analysis is so off it isn't even funny. I guess to people like you, I have to ask point blank why a team who won "with defense and other ways" happened to go 0-5 under one QB and then almost make the playoffs under another guy?

Are you talking about the games against Indy, where he lost but almost brought them to victory single handedly?Or the the game against us?I mean how much football do you watch?I'll tell you I've watched since the 1970s and have seen QBs take teams that had no business winning and turn them into playoff teams. Stats don't do everything. Once a guy shows a team he can win it for them, the defense plays better, the whole team gets the same feeling. Is it coincidence that Henry averaged over a yard more a carry starting with the games VY played?The only game I hear people point to is the J'Ville game.

You dismissing a guy guys believe in vs. a guy with perfect stats reeks of someone who hasn't seen many teams get by with leaders. There is a reason why one Patriot team with Bledsoe looked like a rudderless good team with potential to a SB team with one switch of QB. VY will have his ups and downs but to dismiss him and his contribution because of some rival thing or an anti-VY thing is ignorant. I'm sorry but I look at things from a football standpoint and Ws and Ls and you are blinding yourself if you think 0-5 to what the Titans did was pure coincidence. He is a rival but I'm smart enough to enjoy and look at football talent. VY did nothing to anyone here and wanted to play here. He plays hard and wins on every level. I just get tired of hating to hate. I just think that writers who have never played will never understand the importance of the idea of "every game is winnable with this guy" vs. "stats guy."

Again, I couldn't care less what VY does but I'm a true football fan and to ignore someones impact is senseless.

Wolf
08-19-2007, 10:08 PM
Ric might have went over the top with Vince hating ,but reading through the hating and seeing the object views, he had a point

http://www.texanstalk.com/forums//showthread.php?t=40279

Napa Auto Parts
08-19-2007, 10:09 PM
VY had a some magical games last year but it will be hard to duplicate.

disaacks3
08-19-2007, 10:57 PM
Your analysis is so off it isn't even funny. I guess to people like you, I have to ask point blank why a team who won "with defense and other ways" happened to go 0-5 under one QB and then almost make the playoffs under another guy?

Are you talking about the games against Indy, where he lost but almost brought them to victory single handedly?Or the the game against us?

Um, let's see...

1. Their Defense played better? The last time I looked VY didn't play on "D"
2. Close doesn't count.
3. I already gave hime the "W" against us (see previous postl).

My "analysis" isn't based on the ESPN hype machine, it's based on rational analysis of the game of football, especially as it's played at the Professional level. Are you going to try and sell us all on how great Trent Dilfer is next? He must've INSPIRED the Baltimore Ravens to their Superbowl run in 2000-2001... right? (I hope this sounds as absurd to you as VY winning a game that he looked lousy in, but his Defense played fantastic in does to me.)

BTW - I didn't once use the word STATS, nor did I compare him to anyone else. VY has potential, but until he adapts that potential to the Pro game, he's still a one-trick pony.

TEXANRED
08-20-2007, 06:23 AM
Are you talking about the games against Indy, where he lost but almost brought them to victory single handedly?Or the the game against us?I mean how much football do you watch?I'll tell you I've watched since the 1970s and have seen QBs take teams that had no business winning and turn them into playoff teams. Stats don't do everything. Once a guy shows a team he can win it for them, the defense plays better, the whole team gets the same feeling. Is it coincidence that Henry averaged over a yard more a carry starting with the games VY played?The only game I hear people point to is the J'Ville game.



Well if its all about inspiration and not about performance then lets slap a skirt on him and give him some pom poms and make him the highest paid cheerleader in league history. B/C the man has no business being an NFL QB.

BattleRedToro
08-20-2007, 06:45 AM
Your analysis is so off it isn't even funny. I guess to people like you, I have to ask point blank why a team who won "with defense and other ways" happened to go 0-5 under one QB and then almost make the playoffs under another guy?

Your analysis is even worse. Am I to believe the Titans played 18 games last season? Where do I get that number you ask? Well here is the math for you. Vince Young went 8-5 as a starter last season, while according to you Kerry Collins went 0-5, so the Titans somehow finished 8-10.

By the way, 0-3 under the previous QB should be enough to make your point, but I do understand that it sounds better to say the Titans went 0-5 under him. It leads people to believe that the Titans went 8-3 under Vince Young.:heart:

BigTimeTexanFan
08-20-2007, 06:52 AM
How can any Texan fan want Vince Young to succeed? If it is because of what he did for UT, I have a news flash, he no longer plays for the Horns. Root for Colt McCoy now, not VY. VY succeeding means Bud Adams succeeding and the Texans failing. How can you root for that?

Hey, I was one of the most vocal about wanting the Texans to draft the guy, but I would rather be proven wrong by having the Titans losing and the Texans winning instead of just having the right to say "I told you so". I was right about Carr and that is enough "I told you so" for me.
This is what baffles me. I don't think I have ever seen such a large percentage of a fanbase actually root for a DIVISIONAL RIVAL'S quarterback like this. I understand the love for UT, but like Hookem said, he doesn't play for Ut, he's a Titan!!! It sucks that we didn't get him, but that is in the past. So far it looks like we are doing ok for ourselves at that position right now and I'm looking forward to the Texans succeed and VY and the Titans fail.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 07:28 AM
eh...cloak, VY had some pretty impressive stats his last year at UT....you may want to look them up. anyway...I need to go make some tea or something.:specnatz:

YUP.... He led the nation in completion percentage....... :hmmm: sounds like another quarterback I know.....

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 08:37 AM
Um, let's see...

1. Their Defense played better? The last time I looked VY didn't play on "D"
2. Close doesn't count.
3. I already gave hime the "W" against us (see previous postl).

My "analysis" isn't based on the ESPN hype machine, it's based on rational analysis of the game of football, especially as it's played at the Professional level. Are you going to try and sell us all on how great Trent Dilfer is next? He must've INSPIRED the Baltimore Ravens to their Superbowl run in 2000-2001... right? (I hope this sounds as absurd to you as VY winning a game that he looked lousy in, but his Defense played fantastic in does to me.)

BTW - I didn't once use the word STATS, nor did I compare him to anyone else. VY has potential, but until he adapts that potential to the Pro game, he's still a one-trick pony.

Every person on here is fooling themselves if they don't think that confidence in a team, starting with a leader, doesn't inspire better play all around. You either have never played the sport or haven't watched it long if that is the case. My background on this has nothing to do with ESPN. It has to do with being interested in teams in Texas and watching a guy win games on different levels. All I know is that the Titans had the worst ranked defense last year yet somehow people are giving them credit for doing more than VY. We have RBs who were doing nothing and ALL OF a SUDDEN they are averaging almost a yard more. You have special teams who had done nothing playing inspired ball. A guy doesn't have to be on a unit to inspire it or lead a team. My point isn't to give VY all the credit but to realistic look at where their turn around began.

You are just hating if you think otherwise. People need to step back from their hate and just look at the scenario. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air. Their record improved greatly and he won games. Add to that he was a rookie whom many said would take 3 years to groom. People like to point out the game where their defense stepped up yet ignore the Giants game where he was 24-35(corrected) for 249 and 2 TDs and rushed for 69 with another TD or his win against Indy or Buffalo where he was 13-20 for 183 2 TDs and ran for 61 and another TD. He had stat bad games too but overall nice for a guy who "wasn't developed" yet.

Your analysis is even worse. Am I to believe the Titans played 18 games last season? Where do I get that number you ask? Well here is the math for you. Vince Young went 8-5 as a starter last season, while according to you Kerry Collins went 0-5, so the Titans somehow finished 8-10.

By the way, 0-3 under the previous QB should be enough to make your point, but I do understand that it sounds better to say the Titans went 0-5 under him. It leads people to believe that the Titans went 8-3 under Vince Young.:heart:

Sorry that I got the record wrong. My bad. I was trying to reference the teams start of 0-5. What does that have to do with the analysis of them still almost making the playoffs?I didn't think so. Keep trying.

Well if its all about inspiration and not about performance then lets slap a skirt on him and give him some pom poms and make him the highest paid cheerleader in league history. B/C the man has no business being an NFL QB.

Pure stupidity. Maybe one of the dumber things I have ever read. Sorry, in the words of Ricky Bobby, "that is just dumb."

This is what baffles me. I don't think I have ever seen such a large percentage of a fanbase actually root for a DIVISIONAL RIVAL'S quarterback like this. I understand the love for UT, but like Hookem said, he doesn't play for Ut, he's a Titan!!! It sucks that we didn't get him, but that is in the past. So far it looks like we are doing ok for ourselves at that position right now and I'm looking forward to the Texans succeed and VY and the Titans fail.

I don't like the guy because he went to UT. I didn't go there. I don't like the guy because of hype. I've watched him since high school. I'm only trying to bring realism to the board about being a true football fan. People think that if someone is on a rival then people can't RESPECT the talent. I like our team. I didn't want to draft VY. But the things people are saying are plain wrong and it stems from an immature attitude towards rival players.

As for realism, I think he will have an alright year. I don't find him to be the second coming. They have no receivers so he is screwed. But I still think the guy is a winner and will win in the league and be a guy guys want to play with.

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 10:46 AM
Every person on here is fooling themselves if they don't think that confidence in a team, starting with a leader, doesn't inspire better play all around. You either have never played the sport or haven't watched it long if that is the case. My background on this has nothing to do with ESPN. It has to do with being interested in teams in Texas and watching a guy win games on different levels. All I know is that the Titans had the worst ranked defense last year yet somehow people are giving them credit for doing more than VY. We have RBs who were doing nothing and ALL OF a SUDDEN they are averaging almost a yard more. You have special teams who had done nothing playing inspired ball. A guy doesn't have to be on a unit to inspire it or lead a team. My point isn't to give VY all the credit but to realistic look at where their turn around began.

You are just hating if you think otherwise. People need to step back from their hate and just look at the scenario. Otherwise you are just blowing hot air. Their record improved greatly and he won games. Add to that he was a rookie whom many said would take 3 years to groom. People like to point out the game where their defense stepped up yet ignore the Giants game where he was 24-25 for 249 and 2 TDs and rushed for 69 with another TD or his win against Indy or Buffalo where he was 13-20 for 183 2 TDs and ran for 61 and another TD. He had stat bad games too but overall nice for a guy who "wasn't developed" yet.



Sorry that I got the record wrong. My bad. I was trying to reference the teams start of 0-5. What does that have to do with the analysis of them still almost making the playoffs?I didn't think so. Keep trying.



Pure stupidity. Maybe one of the dumber things I have ever read. Sorry, in the words of Ricky Bobby, "that is just dumb."



I don't like the guy because he went to UT. I didn't go there. I don't like the guy because of hype. I've watched him since high school. I'm only trying to bring realism to the board about being a true football fan. People think that if someone is on a rival then people can't RESPECT the talent. I like our team. I didn't want to draft VY. But the things people are saying are plain wrong and it stems from an immature attitude towards rival players.

As for realism, I think he will have an alright year. I don't find him to be the second coming. They have no receivers so he is screwed. But I still think the guy is a winner and will win in the league and be a guy guys want to play with.

wow, is that a take not born out of hatred and envy? maybe some of yall will grow up so they can construct takes of equal merit.

dont hold your breath.....

the guys hating on VY are the same guys that had David Carr pictures in their locker room and had laundry lists of excuses for him..in other words..no credibility whatsoever...but people are entitled to their opinions no matter how wrong they are....its just par for the course with some of the guys around here

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 10:52 AM
SH.... Completely NOT true. My hate for VY comes from the fact that he played at a rival HS, rival University and finally for the tinnbreads...

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 11:07 AM
SH.... Completely NOT true. My hate for VY comes from the fact that he played at a rival HS, rival University and finally for the tinnbreads...

TB, if you hate the guy then you admit that your takes are biased and are not going to be honestly objective. But that is your right as a fan and any Texans fan who actually wants VY to succeed is probably not a real fan.

my point was that VY had a damn good season last year and isn't a bad QB like some would say. He also isn't a media creation and he earned the OROY. I know you don't think he is a bad QB; you just don't like the guy due to his history, team allegiances, etc. That is totally cool and understandable.

Although I am a Longhorn homer, I don't put VY over the Texans. It would have been nice if our hometown team would have drafted him and got rid of Carr a year earlier, but it didn't happen. Nothing I can do about it. I support the Texans and my name is on the glass outside the stadium to prove it. My blood bleeds Liberty Blue and Battle Red on Sunday...I just don't have a problem being constructive and objective with my takes and don't blindly hate on someone because he plays for a rival. VY has lots of deficiencies in his game but his positive attributes far outweigh the negatives at this point in his career and it may only get better for him. Sadly for VY, the Titans have little to no talent around him and they have Bud as an owner. 31st in payroll....you aint gonna win many division titles much less Super Bowls with Bud as an owner....he is just a cheap fatass.

I think I am going to have to stay away from Mario threads and VY threads for a while because they tend to be frequented by trolls and/or homers. There is so much positive stuff going on with the Texans maybe we all, including myself, should spend more time accentuating the postitives rather than standing mired in a pool of negativity and flame threads. The OL and QB just look so much better this year.
What changed? oh yeah, i know :)

TB, I have always been down with you even when we have disagreed. no hard feelings fellow Texans fan.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 11:16 AM
Fair enough, absolutely no worries, SH!!!

I just think until he learns how to become a pocket passer, he will be Mike Vick (and I refer to Vick the player - nothing else).

I thought the Oilers were wise in their approach with Steve McNair. McNair came from a spread offense too, but was afforded the opportunity to watch the "professional game" and then got his feet wet. He was able to become a pocket passer and only ran when necessary which enhanced him as a weapon. Teams could not 'spy him' for fear of being picked apart in the secondary...

Until VY learns those things, he (IMHO) will be nothing more than a novelty. (Again, see Vick).

Vinny
08-20-2007, 11:30 AM
McNair came from Alcorn st where they didn't have anything close to a NFL offense or competition....most small school guys take a bit longer to develop than players from larger programs. Frankly, imo, people who don't see the difference in Mike Vick and VY are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 11:49 AM
How can any Texan fan want Vince Young to succeed? If it is because of what he did for UT, I have a news flash, he no longer plays for the Horns. Root for Colt McCoy now, not VY. VY succeeding means Bud Adams succeeding and the Texans failing. How can you root for that?

The reason I root for VY is because I went to 2 amazing Rose Bowl games. While VY played for UT, I wasn't a big supporter and was very pessimistic about his NFL career. However, after going to the National Championship game, I realized VY had done more for me as a football fan than whatever anyone else had ever done. It's an amazing experience to go to one of the greatest games of all time.

With all that said, the Texans really haven't done squat. If it wasn't for tailgating and an awesome stadium with great seats, the Texans organizaiton would be worthless at this point in my perspective.

Bottom line is, the Texans need to win and establish their own history. Which they haven't done!

Also, VY openly campaigned to play for the Texans and they didn't select him.

Why should I blindly follow an organization that still hasn't put up winner and continues to make questionable first round draft choices (just think if we didn't Andre Johnson?)?

You keep bringing this point about the Titans and Bud Adams. I was a big Oiler fan too, but I don't have the same feelings as you do about Bud. I definitely understand your perspective though, but don't really have the same strong feelings.

QBs play a long time, and as much as everyone makes of VY's running ability, he is probably an even better football player. The guy has the will to win and the football play in him to adapt and continue his career in my opinion.

Time will tell. As time moves on for me though, my interest in VY becomes less and less concerning my Rose Bowl experiences. In other words, he is just becoming another player in the NFL.

If the Texans could make a decent playoff run, well that would take care of the VY thing all together.

Really, if you think about it, this whole VY thing is really an issue about the questionable personnel decisions the Texans have made. VY is just a flash point to that. If the Texans had went 8-8 or better in 2005, they wouldn't have been in the position to draft VY, and no one would have cared about this whole situation in the first place.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 11:52 AM
Frankly, imo, people who don't see the difference in Mike Vick and VY are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest.

Completely agree!

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:00 PM
McNair came from Alcorn st where they didn't have anything close to a NFL offense or competition....most small school guys take a bit longer to develop than players from larger programs. Frankly, imo, people who don't see the difference in Mike Vick and VY are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest.

Thus my use of the term.... ."Spread offense". Thats what Alcorn State ran and thats what Texas ran (with VY - we'll see if they change that up with McCoy)

Frankly, people that cant see similiarities between Vick and VY AND put VY on a pedestal without having accomplished jack are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest!

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 12:01 PM
The reason I root for VY is because I went to 2 amazing Rose Bowl games. While VY played for UT, I wasn't a big supporter and was very pessimistic about his NFL career. However, after going to the National Championship game, I realized VY had done more for me as a football fan than whatever anyone else had ever done. It's an amazing experience to go to one of the greatest games of all time.

With all that said, the Texans really haven't done squat. If it wasn't for tailgating and an awesome stadium with great seats, the Texans organizaiton would be worthless at this point in my perspective.

Bottom line is, the Texans need to win and establish their own history. Which they haven't done!

Also, VY openly campaigned to play for the Texans and they didn't select him.

Why should I blindly follow an organization that still hasn't put up winner and continues to make questionable first round draft choices (just think if we didn't Andre Johnson?)?

You keep bringing this point about the Titans and Bud Adams. I was a big Oiler fan too, but I don't have the same feelings as you do about Bud. I definitely understand your perspective though, but don't really have the same strong feelings.

QBs play a long time, and as much as everyone makes of VY's running ability, he is probably an even better football player. The guy has the will to win and the football play in him to adapt and continue his career in my opinion.

Time will tell. As time moves on for me though, my interest in VY becomes less and less concerning my Rose Bowl experiences. In other words, he is just becoming another player in the NFL.

If the Texans could make a decent playoff run, well that would take care of the VY thing all together.

Really, if you think about it, this whole VY thing is really an issue about the questionable personnel decisions the Texans have made. VY is just a flash point to that. If the Texans had went 8-8 or better in 2005, they wouldn't have been in the position to draft VY, and no one would have cared about this whole situation in the first place.

These two points are part of my whole argument and another reason why I try to look at the thing with an open mind. SOME people are anti-VY due this backlash of our draft and being tired of hearing about him because of people wanting him. I mean the threads filled the board for months aand still do to this day. My question is always the same, how did VY cause those problems?He didn't. He openly campaigned to be here. People need to separate VY the player and rival and the whoel draft thing, etc. I'm not going to root against a guy just because it will make us look better or so I can throw it in people's faces everytime something goes wrong.

The Pencil Neck
08-20-2007, 12:01 PM
Also, VY openly campaigned to play for the Texans and they didn't select him.


Oh, come on, man. You make it sound like he was doing some sort of favor or making some sort of sacrifice by campaigning to be the first person selected in the draft.

At that point in time, EVERYONE in the draft wanted to play for the Texans.

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 12:04 PM
Oh, come on, man. You make it sound like he was doing some sort of favor or making some sort of sacrifice by campaigning to be the first person selected in the draft.

At that point in time, EVERYONE in the draft wanted to play for the Texans.

Its a valid point though. SOME people on here hate because of this whole VY or Bush or Mario thing. They want to see the others fail to justify our cause. I don't look at it that way. VY didn't cause that problem. It wasn't like he did our organization wrong. I mean there are guys who have openly asked not to go to teams...Eli, Elway....Bush wasn't too excited.

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 12:10 PM
Thus my use of the term.... ."Spread offense". Thats what Alcorn State ran and thats what Texas ran (with VY - we'll see if they change that up with McCoy)

!Frankly, people that cant see similiarities between Vick and VY AND put VY on a pedestal without having accomplished jack are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest

TB, we pretty much are eye to eye on most stuff on here and you know I am not going to try and rip into you or anything. But we will agree to disagree on this. Vick didn't win squat at VT. They had good years. VY won a national title and back to back Rose Bowls. The difference I see is the work they put in. After VYs sophmore year at UT, he was Vick like and one dimensional and then he worked on his passing. His junior year he had the highest completion percentage out there. I don't care what offense he worked in. When drafted people said he would take 3 years to make an impact. He worked with Rhome in the off-season and actually had a pretty successful rookie year. Meanwhile Vick has never wanted to adapt. He runs and has tried to improve throwing sporadically. I think the difference is huge. I just think it is funny that VY or anyone else for that matter has to be the "next" and then add running black QB but no one ever says he could be like Steve Young or anyone like that. I'm not saying it is black and white. It is like every Walters is the next Ed McCafferty. I find it funny. I think VY and Vick are night and day.

Overall though I like our QB now. I'm not complaining about the draft, just the conclusion on a player.

Overalls
08-20-2007, 12:15 PM
McNair came from Alcorn st where they didn't have anything close to a NFL offense or competition....most small school guys take a bit longer to develop than players from larger programs. Frankly, imo, people who don't see the difference in Mike Vick and VY are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest.

That is very true. Vick is a much better passer than VY.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 12:26 PM
Oh, come on, man. You make it sound like he was doing some sort of favor or making some sort of sacrifice by campaigning to be the first person selected in the draft.

At that point in time, EVERYONE in the draft wanted to play for the Texans.
True, every player wants to be picked #1.

But, I believe VY would have gladly gone #3 with the Texans than #1 with the Titans in that draft at that point in his life.

I watched some stuff on VY and how he lives since being in the NFL. This guy is a TEXAN when you look at his house and how he decorated it. I love the Texan mascot and logo, but this is where you get hosed by having that as your marketing concept. You pass on a true Texan (what a missed marketing opportunity) and he ends up kicking your butt every year. Let's hope that doesn't happen.

Can you imagine the commericals with Vince saying "I'm a Texan"?

Oh my...

Not only did the Texans miss on opporunity, but also missed a marketing dream and way to make serious in roads into the Dallas fan base.

But, we have already gone round and round with that.

Understand this, the Texans can solve this problem very easily, WIN FOOTBALL GAMES AND GO TO THE PLAYOFFS!!!!

Keep in mind, just because I am not a blind loyalist doesn't mean I not a huge TEXAN FAN!

Vinny
08-20-2007, 12:30 PM
Thus my use of the term.... ."Spread offense". Thats what Alcorn State ran and thats what Texas ran (with VY - we'll see if they change that up with McCoy)

Frankly, people that cant see similiarities between Vick and VY AND put VY on a pedestal without having accomplished jack are either tunnel vision homers or are not being honest!
Texas had a much higher quality of competition than alcorn state did. Steve McNair didn't run much more than a high school offense at Alcorn St vs very low grade competition.

On the second point...to be frank, I value credibility over popularity so I choose to give credible opinion over biased homer takes.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:35 PM
TB, we pretty much are eye to eye on most stuff on here and you know I am not going to try and rip into you or anything. But we will agree to disagree on this. Vick didn't win squat at VT. They had good years. VY won a national title and back to back Rose Bowls. The difference I see is the work they put in. After VYs sophmore year at UT, he was Vick like and one dimensional and then he worked on his passing. His junior year he had the highest completion percentage out there. I don't care what offense he worked in. When drafted people said he would take 3 years to make an impact. He worked with Rhome in the off-season and actually had a pretty successful rookie year. Meanwhile Vick has never wanted to adapt. He runs and has tried to improve throwing sporadically. I think the difference is huge. I just think it is funny that VY or anyone else for that matter has to be the "next" and then add running black QB but no one ever says he could be like Steve Young or anyone like that. I'm not saying it is black and white. It is like every Walters is the next Ed McCafferty. I find it funny. I think VY and Vick are night and day.

I hear what you are saying.

I know that he led the nation in completion percentage... However, we just spent the last 5 years with a QB who last year had a high completion percentage too. We know that didnt mean crap...

Also, I think VY fans do a great dis-service to the receiving corps Texas had when VY was there. How many jump balls did Limus Sweed come down with?? The tight end David Thomas was a pretty good one. Billy Pittman and Jordan Shipley contributed as well - not to mention some pretty good backs coming out of the backfield (Selvin Young, Taylor and Charles)....

I compare Young to Vick, not because of color, but because neither are good pocket passers. Once he learns to throw than maybe some comparisons to Steve Young, Elway, Staubach, Tarkenton, McNabb, McNair or Cunningham and other scrambling quarterbacks would be justified. Until then, his 'game' reminds me more of Vick than a Steve Young. We'll see if that changes, but as for now, I call it like I see it and can not predict the future. Some people never thought McNair would develop into a pocket passer, but it happened and he did quite well... SO there is hope for the VY fans.

Meanwhile, I will hope that he and the Titans lose as many divisional games as possible...

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 12:37 PM
TB, we pretty much are eye to eye on most stuff on here and you know I am not going to try and rip into you or anything. But we will agree to disagree on this. Vick didn't win squat at VT. They had good years. VY won a national title and back to back Rose Bowls. The difference I see is the work they put in. After VYs sophmore year at UT, he was Vick like and one dimensional and then he worked on his passing. His junior year he had the highest completion percentage out there. I don't care what offense he worked in. When drafted people said he would take 3 years to make an impact. He worked with Rhome in the off-season and actually had a pretty successful rookie year. Meanwhile Vick has never wanted to adapt. He runs and has tried to improve throwing sporadically. I think the difference is huge. I just think it is funny that VY or anyone else for that matter has to be the "next" and then add running black QB but no one ever says he could be like Steve Young or anyone like that. I'm not saying it is black and white. It is like every Walters is the next Ed McCafferty. I find it funny. I think VY and Vick are night and day.

Overall though I like our QB now. I'm not complaining about the draft, just the conclusion on a player.

Don't agree here. Mack was trying to get him to run a pro-style O like Simms & Applewhite had run before him in his sophmore year & he struggled. He then went to Mack in the offseason & asked him to "let vince be vince." i.e. let me run plays that play to my strengths, hence the QB read came about & the rest is history.

Chow & Fisher brought this play with him when he was drafted but only as a "wrinkle" for the offense NOT to have your whole offense run off of this like it was @ UT. At some point he's going to have to learn how to beat teams through the air. I'm not going to bet against him, but it's obvious that he needs to work on being a better passer & i think the NE game where he looks like he clearly was not trying to run was the first step for him.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:40 PM
Texas had a much higher quality of competition than alcorn state did. Steve McNair didn't run much more than a high school offense at Alcorn St vs very low grade competition.

On the second point...to be frank, I value credibility over popularity so I choose to give credible opinion over biased homer takes.

Credibility isn't self appointed. Besides, I am in the minority (disproving your popularity comment) when it comes to wearing VY's jock strap as an eye patch...

My evaluation of him is spot on - until 'he' proves me different...

Vinny
08-20-2007, 12:41 PM
Credibility isn't self appointed. Besides, I am in the minority (disproving your popularity comment) when it comes to wearing VY's jock strap as an eye patch...

My evaluation of him is spot on - until 'he' proves me different... you don't have to find me credible....most of the homers don't and never will because I just don't post slanted takes. It's just par for the course. I'll put up my history of observation up against anyone here.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:41 PM
Don't agree here. Mack was trying to get him to run a pro-style O like Simms & Applewhite had run before him in his sophmore year & he struggled. He then went to Mack in the offseason & asked him to "let vince be vince." i.e. let me run plays that play to my strengths, hence the QB read came about & the rest is history.

Chow & Fisher brought this play with him when he was drafted but only as a "wrinkle" for the offense NOT to have your whole offense run off of this like it was @ UT. At some point he's going to have to learn how to beat teams through the air. I'm not going to bet against him, but it's obvious that he needs to work on being a better passer & i think the NE game where he looks like he clearly was not trying to run was the first step for him.

That was probably the best and most fair assessment yet....

Double Barrel
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
Can you imagine the commericals with Vince saying "I'm a Texan"?

I'm sure that would go over well in Possum Hollar. PROFESSIONAL football players have allegiances to the teams that they play for, NOT to the cities they were born in. If he's so big on Houston and his 'roots', then why didn't he play for the Cougars?

As far as ancient history (aka 2006 draft): People seem to be forgetting that VY, in spite of his dynamics and potential, is just not a WCO QB. He never would have fit with the Texans under Kubiak's offensive schemes.

Young is in the best place for him right now. He's got an OC that wants to tailor an offense to his strengths.

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
I hear what you are saying.

I know that he led the nation in completion percentage... However, we just spent the last 5 years with a QB who last year had a high completion percentage too. We know that didnt mean crap...

Also, I think VY fans do a great dis-service to the receiving corps Texas had when VY was there. How many jump balls did Limus Sweed come down with?? The tight end David Thomas was a pretty good one. Billy Pittman and Jordan Shipley contributed as well - not to mention some pretty good backs coming out of the backfield (Selvin Young, Taylor and Charles)....

I compare Young to Vick, not because of color, but because neither are good pocket passers. Once he learns to throw than maybe some comparisons to Steve Young, Elway, Staubach, Tarkenton, McNabb, McNair or Cunningham and other scrambling quarterbacks would be justified. Until then, his 'game' reminds me more of Vick than a Steve Young. We'll see if that changes, but as for now, I call it like I see it and can not predict the future. Some people never thought McNair would develop into a pocket passer, but it happened and he did quite well... SO there is hope for the VY fans.

Meanwhile, I will hope that he and the Titans lose as many divisional games as possible...

I hear you and my one take wasn't meant to say that anyone was comparing race. I just think it slips into people's minds when they think "running QB" or "tall white receiver." All in all people will make the jump. I think many just made the jump that VY was Vick. I don't see it. As you said, it is somethign we will see. I just haven't seen anything that says he won't overcome and become a above average passer too. I just don't put Vick and VY as in the same category. Its not close for me.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:45 PM
you don't have to find me credible....most of the homers don't and never will because I just don't post slanted takes. It's just par for the course.

Define homer??? Would that be me pulling for Reggie McNeil in Cincinnatti?? Or suggesting that the Texans sign Furgeson??? Or sniffing VY's jock because he's the home grown kid... If that were the case, I would be pimping Joseph Addai... Lemme run out and get my Dolts jersey!!!

If by being a homer you mean that I am a Texans fan and ONLY a Texans fan and thats wrong... Well, I don't wanna be right!!

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
Don't agree here. Mack was trying to get him to run a pro-style O like Simms & Applewhite had run before him in his sophmore year & he struggled. He then went to Mack in the offseason & asked him to "let vince be vince." i.e. let me run plays that play to my strengths, hence the QB read came about & the rest is history.

Chow & Fisher brought this play with him when he was drafted but only as a "wrinkle" for the offense NOT to have your whole offense run off of this like it was @ UT. At some point he's going to have to learn how to beat teams through the air. I'm not going to bet against him, but it's obvious that he needs to work on being a better passer & i think the NE game where he looks like he clearly was not trying to run was the first step for him.

Well put but I will still disagree. He might have asked Mack to let him be himself but he also passed against teams that took away the run. Many tried to and he to work from the pocket.

As far as the pros. I was surprised at his development last year and thought he threw well against us and as I pointed out above, against the Giants and a few others. For a rookie I looked at it as a pretty stong platform.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:49 PM
I hear you and my one take wasn't meant to say that anyone was comparing race. I just think it slips into people's minds when they think "running QB" or "tall white receiver." All in all people will make the jump. I think many just made the jump that VY was Vick. I don't see it. As you said, it is somethign we will see. I just haven't seen anything that says he won't overcome and become a above average passer too. I just don't put Vick and VY as in the same category. Its not close for me.

I will say this about the VY vs. Vick comparison and that is, IF anyone has the determination and grit to learn the passing game for the betterment of the team and themselves it would be VY. In Vicks case, I never saw that 'potential'.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 12:50 PM
Define homer??? Would that be me pulling for Reggie McNeil in Cincinnatti?? Or suggesting that the Texans sign Furgeson??? Or sniffing VY's jock because he's the home grown kid... If that were the case, I would be pimping Joseph Addai... Lemme run out and get my Dolts jersey!!!

If by being a homer you mean that I am a Texans fan and ONLY a Texans fan and thats wrong... Well, I don't wanna be right!!

a homer is a guy who is not honest about his opinion and always slants it for the home team (its the same as partisan politics).....it's not like its a crime....but I just don't roll that way.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 12:52 PM
a homer is a guy who is not honest about his opinion and always slants it for the home team.....it's not like its a crime....but I just don't roll that way.

Than I am certainly NOT a homer. I am completely honest with my opinions and if we blow something, I will own it.... As far as talk about players from other teams, I will give them some props when deserved..

Vinny
08-20-2007, 12:54 PM
Than I am certainly NOT a homer. I am completely honest with my opinions and if we blow something, I will own it.... As far as talk about players from other teams, I will give them some props when deserved..
I'm sure you view your views as honest...I just can't see honesty in all your takes...especially when you call people who don't agree with you jock sniffers.

Mr. White
08-20-2007, 12:57 PM
It's pretty ill-advised to play the man-love/crush, or jock swinger/sniffer card. It could be said for anyone who is on a football message board. I have yet to meet a football fan that doesn't root for specific players (even on other teams.)

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 01:02 PM
Well put but I will still disagree. He might have asked Mack to let him be himself but he also passed against teams that took away the run. Many tried to and he to work from the pocket.

As far as the pros. I was surprised at his development last year and thought he threw well against us and as I pointed out above, against the Giants and a few others. For a rookie I looked at it as a pretty stong platform.

Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.

teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 01:09 PM
Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.

teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

That is what will be interesting about this season. It will be tough on him and I had mentioned that earlier in the thread. They don't have much at all. In fact fantasy owners should line up for Bo Scaife because he will be getting alot of throws.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 01:12 PM
I'm sure that would go over well in Possum Hollar. PROFESSIONAL football players have allegiances to the teams that they play for, NOT to the cities they were born in.

VY has said on regular occassions he does play for the first professional Houston football team. He is putting himself into a pretzel on this one in my opinion and I don't understand why. From what I have seen, I disagree with you completely. VY is a Houstonian and a proud Texan. I am amazed we are even discussing this.



If he's so big on Houston and his 'roots', then why didn't he play for the Cougars?

I don't have an answer for this one except to say playing at Texas is not that much of a strech for a native Houstonian.

I think you are reaching on this one.



As far as ancient history (aka 2006 draft): People seem to be forgetting that VY, in spite of his dynamics and potential, is just not a WCO QB. He never would have fit with the Texans under Kubiak's offensive schemes.

Well, if Mack Brown had imployed that philosophy he wouldn't have a National Championship with 2 amazing Rose Bowl victories.

Sometimes, you take the best player that gives you the best chance and build around that. Talk about being stuck in a box.

Young is in the best place for him right now. He's got an OC that wants to tailor an offense to his strengths.

If Kubiak is that myopic, then we are probably in trouble. Thinking in new terms/concepts is more important than trying to prove an old model.

Example, Mario Williams. We picked for a position/situation and not the players involved.

disaacks3
08-20-2007, 01:16 PM
This thing just keeps getting more & more silly.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

Texan_Bill
08-20-2007, 01:19 PM
I'm sure you view your views as honest...I just can't see honesty in all your takes...especially when you call people who don't agree with you jock sniffers.

The one's I refer to as jock sniffers are the ones who are having VY's bust being made for Canton - when in fact he has yet to accomplish squat.

Specnatz
08-20-2007, 01:24 PM
I thought this was a smack talk forum, so actual real stats did not mean squat?

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 01:28 PM
This thing just keeps getting more & more silly.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

Well if you actually read my post back to you'd see that I never said he was the greatest QB ever or that my opinion was based on highlights. In fact I was realistic about expectations this year and what has transpired this year. Its alright though because I'm used to hyperbole to make points that were NEVER addressed.

As for the defense. AGAIN, you are doing the same thing you are claiming VY fans are doing. The defense was the worst rated D in the NFL. The point wasn't that he inspired them to be better all the time...they weren't a good unit and had one big game. The point is that a winning attitude, something we are starting to develop finally, rubs off on other player. PacMan and othwers stepped up. And YES, I believe the defenses of old could pin their ears back and play better knowing that the offense was going to put up points and allow them to do their thing. You hear players interviewed all the time say that they knew they could do their job because the other side was getting theirs done.

No one claimed it was "rah-rah." Its called leadership and you are missing the boat completely if you don't think it exists in the NFL and that other players don't gravitate towards others.

But keep going, I'm sure this will turn into someone hating Kubiak and some of us walking around with VY on our cars:cool:

BTW, I like Leinart too and I like Cutler but the conversation isn't about them. Leinart also had the same ratio of INTS to TDS as VY but one less of each...11/12 and 12/13. I like his receivers much better too.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 01:30 PM
That is what will be interesting about this season. It will be tough on him and I had mentioned that earlier in the thread. They don't have much at all. In fact fantasy owners should line up for Bo Scaife because he will be getting alot of throws.

& i think that's where the Vick comparisons come into play. From running the option @ madison to QB read @ UT, He is & always has been a run 1st QB. He's talented enough to evolve into a McNabb type of QB, but he also could go the opposite & stay relatively stagnant like Vick did. The reason being is b/c he's been successful doing it his way for so many years.

It'll be interesting nonetheless to see how it unfolds & to see how fans treat him 3 years in if he hasn't improved enough.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 01:32 PM
This thing just keeps getting more & more silly.

Matt Lineart had a far better season last year (as a QB) than VY. I'm just sorry that he didn't "inspire" his defense to as many scores as the Titans so we could put this to rest already. If you think that VY looked more NFL-ready than Lineart last year, please don't bother responding to this post, for we will likely NEVER agree on even basic points.

I'm not ready to annoint Lineart as having HoF-potential yet because of one good year. I'm also not ready to throw VY "under the bus" for a less-than-stellar year.

A good NFL QB takes time to develop & mature. Most "ride the pine" for at least a year before being thrown into the starting lineup. The more work they need fundamentally, the longer they usually take to adjust.

All the rah-rah in the world eventually wears off at the NFL level. I do believe that teams can take on the persona of a particular player, but, ultimately it's a team sport.

Did Bradshaw inspire the Steel Curtain?
How about Staubach & the Doomsday?
Was the Indy defense BAD because Peyton Manning wasn't a leader until last year?

VY has been a winner at every level, but this is USUALLY the case for starters in the NFL. These guys are the BEST of the BEST in their profession, else they usually go the USFL, XFL, Arena League, etc.

If you're really a fan of VY, give him a few years to see what he CAN do. Telling the rest of us that he's the greatest QB ever (based on last year) makes us want to hurl. Stop watching highlight reel footage and watch the WHOLE game...the guy needs some work, don't break his back trying to live up to this "walk-on-water" persona that he himself helped invent.

All situations are not the same or equal. Therefore, judging on raw numbers can be misleading.

You can make the arguement that Leinart has better players around him, particularly at the RB and WR positions.

Completely agree on it's going to take several more years to see how these guys play out and live up to their potential.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 01:32 PM
As for the defense. AGAIN, you are doing the same thing you are claiming VY fans are doing. The defense was the worst rated D in the NFL.
Only two teams gave up 400 points or more last year and the Titans were one of them (49ers were the other one).

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 01:35 PM
Well, his college career aside,( I have my opinions on that as well) Jacksonville & NE showed the blueprint on how to beat him, which is to take away his ability to run. He will make some plays with his arm, but can he beat u with his arm consistently is another matter in & of itself.teams are going to start taking their chances with his arm & as of right now, i bet the opposition will come out on top most of the time. He's already got 1 strike against him: He has no WR corps to speak of....... Thanks Bud!

agree 100%. he will have to improve his passing skills to take the next step and it will only be harder due to the talent level thanks to Bud.

disaacks3
08-20-2007, 01:41 PM
And YES, I believe the defenses of old could pin their ears back and play better knowing that the offense was going to put up points and allow them to do their thing. You hear players interviewed all the time say that they knew they could do their job because the other side was getting theirs done. So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 01:48 PM
So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.


What you're saying is true to a certain extent, but the guy did make some heads up plays for a rookie QB (giants game & 2nd texans game) that were huge for them & those things do inspire your teammates if even a little. Should he have won OROY & gone to the pro bowl? My opinion is no, but people can also say that Demeco shouldn't have gotten DROY either based on stats & or impact on a team.

infantrycak
08-20-2007, 01:54 PM
What you're saying is true to a certain extent, but the guy did make some heads up plays for a rookie QB (giants game & 2nd texans game) that were huge for them & those things do inspire your teammates if even a little.

The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

HoustonFrog
08-20-2007, 01:55 PM
So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

It is apples and oranges. As I said the Titans D was horrible and gave up a ton of points and were ranked 32nd. The NFL is never static where the same scenario happens every week. I explained that he had off weeks too. The D had one very good week that was really a D/Special Teams week surrounding PacMan. Other than that the team scraped by. But I don't think it is a jump to think that the team played better and picked him up just like he picked them up. It just wasn't a weekly thing. The above quote was more about the teams you mentioned..Cowboys, Steelers, etc. I used to see Irvin talking up Dallas's D in the 90s.

My point in joining this thread wasn't to jock VY like he was a savior, it was to throw out an opinion that I don't believe is homer like. He didn't have a perfect season but he still won in a situation that wasn't ideal and the team improved in other areas when he took over...such as the running game. So overall I think VY showed that he wasn't a 3 year project and with the right team can make the difference. All I know is that when he was drafted he was called out as not ready and now that he won games and made plays people are trying to pick him apart even more. I think it is plain silly not to think he will have these people eating crow too.

Second Honeymoon
08-20-2007, 01:56 PM
So, how do you explain the Titans success when "VY's offense" WASN'T putting up big numbers? If anything, it appeared that their improved Titans Defense took the pressure OFF of VY, rather than the other way around.

It's very simple really...I think VY is getting FAR too much credit for the Titans wins last year than he deserves to.

good coaching
good special teams
good performance in 3rd down situations by the VY led offense
defense had some critical returns

one can argue he got too much credit but that is part and parcel of being a QB in the NFL. bottom line is that he competed at a very high level and was one of the hardest guys to stop on 3rd down, arm or no arm. He exceeded early expectations and contributed towards TEAM success and in doing so, turned around their season.

He played like dogcrap in New England in a must-win situation on the final day of the season but they had no business going to the playoffs after starting so poorly. After that NE game he looked like he was crushed to have played so poorly at a crucial time. The game meant something to him and that is something you can't put a price on or set a stopwatch to.

Some call it the IT factor but I gotta go with the Commitment To Excellence cliche. He just doesnt like to lose and is willing to do just about anything to prevent it from happening...and when he fails, it crushes him. That is the type of guy I want leading my team and it looks like we got a guy just like that in Schaub. Schaub is showing the dedication and work ethic it takes to be a true professional. VY is a Titan but I like that Schaub shows some of the same qualities and desire to compete....and is a much more accurate and polished QB that doesnt mind not sleeping in his own bed.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 02:03 PM
The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.John Elway didn't win 12 playoff games and 2 super bowls by himself either...but come on, without him they don't win near that much.....heck the Broncos have only won one playoff game since Elway retired....and were not a good team before he got there. Despite what some of the guys here think, one very elite player pulling the trigger at QB can make a team a dynamic force in the NFL. The Titans were 9-24 the two years and the three games before he started. They were 8-5 and one game from the playoffs since they inserted him as the starter....and pacman Jones was with the team when they were 4-12 the year before.

Mr teX
08-20-2007, 02:08 PM
The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

hey i agree with you guys, The media overblew ( is that even a word) it, but it's like 2nd honeymoon said, In most situations, the qb gets most of the praise when his team wins, & most of the blame when they lose.

Double Barrel
08-20-2007, 02:31 PM
VY has said on regular occassions he does play for the first professional Houston football team. He is putting himself into a pretzel on this one in my opinion and I don't understand why. From what I have seen, I disagree with you completely. VY is a Houstonian and a proud Texan. I am amazed we are even discussing this.

We are discussing this because YOU brought the subject up like it means something.

So what, he's from Houston. Is that actually supposed to be a basis for drafting the guy? I am amazed that you drop all pretension of football knowledge to be a homer for the guy.

I don't have an answer for this one except to say playing at Texas is not that much of a strech for a native Houstonian.

I think you are reaching on this one.

Reaching for what? YOU keep stating that being a native Houstonian should mean something to the Texans, like Young has some blood honor to represent the city. If it meant that much to him, then why not stay in the city and represent the college that bears the name? I don't care that he went to Texas, and I don't blame him for doing so. But please don't try to make it out like he's such a hometown hero when he skipped out and went to Austin.

Your logic fails you here, because there is no spoon. I merely used your own argument against you, and as you see, there's not much sense in it to begin with.

Well, if Mack Brown had imployed that philosophy he wouldn't have a National Championship with 2 amazing Rose Bowl victories.

Sometimes, you take the best player that gives you the best chance and build around that. Talk about being stuck in a box.


If Kubiak is that myopic, then we are probably in trouble. Thinking in new terms/concepts is more important than trying to prove an old model.

Example, Mario Williams. We picked for a position/situation and not the players involved.

Wha.....? Mack Brown redesigned his offense to take advantage of Young's strengths. Guess what? It was not a pro-style offense that he implemented.

Kubiak runs a version of the WCO, heavy on timing patterns. While there is certainly room for alteration, I don't think scrapping your entire offensive philosophy for one player is very wise.

And let's leave the straw man argument of Mario out of the discussion. Your cheap shot was unwarranted when talking about OFFENSIVE schemes and an offensive player like Young.

You have an agenda, and it is more and more obvious with each post you type. The 2006 draft is water under the bridge. The sooner you accept that reality, the sooner you can stop your myopic takes on this subject.

disaacks3
08-20-2007, 02:47 PM
John Elway didn't win 12 playoff games and 2 super bowls by himself either...but come on, without him they don't win near that much.....heck the Broncos have only won one playoff game since Elway retired....and were not a good team before he got there. Despite what some of the guys here think, one very elite player pulling the trigger at QB can make a team a dynamic force in the NFL. The Titans were 9-24 the two years and the three games before he started. They were 8-5 and one game from the playoffs since they inserted him as the starter....and pacman Jones was with the team when they were 4-12 the year before.
Please oh please let's not compare VY to Elway....at least not yet. John Elway was a far more polished passer out of college and much more geared to a 'conventional' NFL offense. I DO think an ELITE player can have that much impact. I'm (very) far from convinced that Vince falls into that category.

I also have an issue with giving the *ROY to a guy who wasn't even the best rookie at HIS position. I'm not sure anybody could make that argument against DeMeco.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 02:48 PM
I think he had every bit of impact that Elway had...I'll make the comparison I see fit...thanka

The league voted him into the pro bowl and the league voted him as the rookie of the year...so I guess the only people that have the proper perspective on VY are the homers in Houston who are afraid to say he is worth a darn because our franchise passed on him?

infantrycak
08-20-2007, 03:08 PM
Despite what some of the guys here think, one very elite player pulling the trigger at QB can make a team a dynamic force in the NFL.

Absolutely agree. My point was simply it took great performances from two players to pull off the Giants win so both should get credit. Without either one it goes down as a L.

The league voted him into the pro bowl

The league didn't vote him into the pro-bowl (or if you prefer they voted him in for several folks outside of the cut)--he became a pro-bowler due to a slew (5 I believe) of QB's deciding not to play. Not a knock on him, just the history. Demeco was closer to be voted in but he doesn't get the same credit.

Vinny
08-20-2007, 03:10 PM
Absolutely agree. My point was simply it took great performances from two players to pull off the Giants win so both should get credit. Without either one it goes down as a L.I think we agree....both got a ton of credit as they both deserved it....the Titans were awful in any other rational measurement if you extract Pacman and Young both from the squads.

hollywood_texan
08-20-2007, 03:23 PM
You have an agenda, and it is more and more obvious with each post you type. The 2006 draft is water under the bridge. The sooner you accept that reality, the sooner you can stop your myopic takes on this subject.

You mistake me having an agenda for taking a deep analysis of a situation. That happens very often on this board with my posts. My postings are more about a genuine analysis of a situation and deciding the best decision in my opinion on their merits.

The VY decision was wrapped up in so many things and even more missed opportunities. It seems so many people have their eyes closed to it for whatever reasons (Aggies that don't like Longhorns, Kubiak/WCO, etc.).

The key is winning the Super Bowl, and if that meant VY and Kubiak chaning his offensive scheme, so be it. I am tired of this WCO box. You take the best opportunity and go with it and make adjustments.

Make no mistake, the Texans have to stand on their own. The reason we are even having this discussion is because they can't win football games. So don't blame me for the discussion, blame McNair and the Texans organization.

These guys don't deserve a free pass for all the terrible personnel decisions.

But, please don't misinterpret my analysis as an agenda for some UT player.

Double Barrel
08-20-2007, 05:24 PM
You mistake me having an agenda for taking a deep analysis of a situation. That happens very often on this board with my posts. My postings are more about a genuine analysis of a situation and deciding the best decision in my opinion on their merits.

The VY decision was wrapped up in so many things and even more missed opportunities. It seems so many people have their eyes closed to it for whatever reasons (Aggies that don't like Longhorns, Kubiak/WCO, etc.).

The key is winning the Super Bowl, and if that meant VY and Kubiak chaning his offensive scheme, so be it. I am tired of this WCO box. You take the best opportunity and go with it and make adjustments.

Make no mistake, the Texans have to stand on their own. The reason we are even having this discussion is because they can't win football games. So don't blame me for the discussion, blame McNair and the Texans organization.

These guys don't deserve a free pass for all the terrible personnel decisions.

But, please don't misinterpret my analysis as an agenda for some UT player.

That's cool, man. We are always entitled to our own opinions, and I respect that accordingly. Agreeing to disagree is nothing but a 'thang'.

I've said it before, I like the playmaking ability that VY seems to possess, and think the dynamic potential of a player like him is fun to watch as an NFL fan.

But in spite of all that, I'm still glad he's not a member of the Houston Texans. :shades:

TEXANRED
08-20-2007, 07:09 PM
Pure stupidity. Maybe one of the dumber things I have ever read. Sorry, in the words of Ricky Bobby, "that is just dumb."




Then apparently you don't read the things you write.

Hookem Horns
08-20-2007, 07:51 PM
LOL, this thread is still going?

TEXANRED
08-20-2007, 08:51 PM
I'm sure that would go over well in Possum Hollar. PROFESSIONAL football players have allegiances to the teams that they play for, NOT to the cities they were born in. If he's so big on Houston and his 'roots', then why didn't he play for the Cougars?


Maybe b/c he couldn't pass UH's entry exam?

Wolf
08-20-2007, 11:08 PM
The Giants game is the classic example for what dissack is saying. Yes VY made some really good plays, but the comeback was at least equally set up by two Pacman Jones INT's and a long run back. Neither one should be given singular credit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ12p3uLk3Y

44 seconds into it... I can't spell his name.. I am not sure why he didn't wrap up...

I give vince this.. he has a way of getting key plays (3rd downs) to keep drives alive.. that what does make vince dangerous.

Texan_Bill
08-21-2007, 07:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ12p3uLk3Y

44 seconds into it... I can't spell his name.. I am not sure why he didn't wrap up...

I give vince this.. he has a way of getting key plays (3rd downs) to keep drives alive.. that what does make vince dangerous.

Ironically, the guy who didn't "wrap up" took an unnescessary roughness call the week before for slamming Carr... No excuse for not playing to the whistle though...

infantrycak
08-21-2007, 08:29 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ12p3uLk3Y

44 seconds into it... I can't spell his name.. I am not sure why he didn't wrap up...

I give vince this.. he has a way of getting key plays (3rd downs) to keep drives alive.. that what does make vince dangerous.

Rookie Kiawanuka (or something similar). He let up on the play because the week before a game was changed by a lame QB roughing call and he didn't want to change the game by drawing the same penalty. Dumb not to wait for a whistle though.

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 06:50 PM
Sorry that I got the record wrong. My bad. I was trying to reference the teams start of 0-5. What does that have to do with the analysis of them still almost making the playoffs?I didn't think so. Keep trying.

That is fine if you want to reference the team's start of 0-5 as long as you make sure everyone knows that 2 of those losses were when Vince Young was a starter. Otherwise it leads people to believe that he had a higher winning percentage then he did as a starter and they would then surmise incorrectly that had Vince started all 16 games that they would have won 11 games. On the contrary, the only additional game that they might have won that Vince didn't start was the loss to Miami in Week 3. If the Titans would have won that game I believe they would have been in the playoffs, but I'm not sure if I understand the tiebreaker system correctly, so I could be wrong.

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 06:51 PM
Rookie Kiawanuka (or something similar). He let up on the play because the week before a game was changed by a lame QB roughing call and he didn't want to change the game by drawing the same penalty. Dumb not to wait for a whistle though.

And people say that referees don't change the game.

Blazing Arrow
08-21-2007, 06:53 PM
We might have pulled out the game in NY as well. Collins did not have a 1st down in the 1st half

BattleRedToro
08-21-2007, 07:53 PM
We might have pulled out the game in NY as well. Collins did not have a 1st down in the 1st half

No, I think VY would've needed KY after that game because he wasn't ready to start yet. Remember that game was in Week 1.

michaelm
08-21-2007, 09:28 PM
eh...cloak, VY had some pretty impressive stats his last year at UT....you may want to look them up. anyway...I need to go make some tea or something.:specnatz:

I'm a Longhorn fan, and don't really know much about his stats except for 1-0 in National Championship games... (OK, maybe a bit more)
As a fan, I DO know there were too many times that I cringed when he passed the ball, thinking "that pass gets picked off in the NFL".
Too many soft, floating passes for my comfort level. It happened more than a few times against USC, too.
On the other hand, he may be good enough that he knew instinctively that he could get away with a less than pin point pass... I'm not making a joke there, maybe he just knew...

Blazing Arrow
08-21-2007, 09:44 PM
No, I think VY would've needed KY after that game because he wasn't ready to start yet. Remember that game was in Week 1.

He went 3-4 and the INT was a end of half 3-flies up pass. Getting even 3 1st in the first half could have saved our D. Even if it were through his legs it would have been huge.