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View Full Version : Vote: What separates cheating from strategy?


Wolf
08-12-2007, 10:54 AM
http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3049

jlam
08-12-2007, 01:24 PM
Getting caught?

Wolf
08-12-2007, 01:37 PM
1) SLIPPERY SLOPE

In the 1960s and '70s, offensive linemen often put Vaseline on their jerseys so defensive linemen could not get a good grip. In the 1980s, the substance of choice was silicone. ''But towards the end of my career, NFL referees would feel linemen's jerseys to check for any stuff," said former Oakland Raiders star wide receiver Tim Brown, who played in the NFL from 1988-2004.

Cheating---I think if you have to use artificial stuff then this
Gamesmanship

2) TOO TIGHT?

Defensive and offensive linemen are known for wearing tight jerseys so their opponents cannot get a grip on them. In the 1980s, players used many techniques to make their jerseys as tight as possible. Players today, however, can have their jerseys custom made. Seattle defensive end Patrick Kerney, in particular, is known for wearing an especially tight jersey.

''In today's game, it is hand-to-hand combat in the trenches, so to have an offensive or defensive lineman hold your jersey is a killer'' said former Bengals offensive lineman Dave Lapham, now an analyst on Cincinnati radio broadcasts.

Cheating
Gamesmanship-no problem with that

3) STICKY FINGERS

Lester Hayes, a defensive back for the Raiders from 1977-1986, was infamous for putting Stickum on his hands so he could catch the ball more easily. "The sole focus of our team was to win consistently," said Hayes, who helped the Raiders win Super Bowls XV and XVIII. "Whether it was a mental or a physical advantage, we were going to do whatever was necessary to win. Our attitude was that if we could get away with something, we were going to do it."

Cheating- same reason as #1
Gamesmanship

4) MR. DECEPTION

Indianapolis quarterback Peyton Manning is known for deception. Countless times during a game, Manning will go to the line, get near his center, back away and call an audible. Manning's audibles are often meaningless, as they are designed to shift the defensive formation. The NFL made a rule that mandates that a quarterback must snap the ball if he places his hands under center. Defensive coordinators argue that Manning comes close to violating the new rule.

Cheating-if the defense can't move around then the offensive leader shouldn't be able to-afterall OL knows the snap count
Gamesmanship

5) SNOW JOB

On Dec. 12, 1982, Patriots coach Ron Meyer sent out Mark Henderson, an inmate on furlough, to plow a spot in the middle of a snowy field for kicker John Smith. He made the kick for a 3-0 Pats win, infuriating Miami coach Don Shula.

''That guy (Henderson) was out on the field and finished before I knew what had happened,'' Shula said. ''I talked with the official on our side of the field, and he said the same thing happened to him. The guy was on the field before they knew what he was doing. The Patriots will have to live with doing something like that.''

Cheating
Gamesmanship-as long as it is available to both teams-if not.then move to cheating

the questions

Wolf
08-12-2007, 01:43 PM
6) SIGNAL INTERCEPT

After the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0 in Miami last season, Dolphins linebacker Zach Thomas claimed he knew the Patriots' audibles. He wasn't kidding. Teams sometimes will place microphones on their defensive players to tape the opposing team's audibles. The team then matches the audibles with the play the offense runs. In the shutout loss to Miami, the Patriots played their worst game of the season, as Tom Brady was sacked four times. Coincidence?

Cheating-kinda an unwritten rule (like stealing signs in baseball
Gamesmanship

7) A LITTLE EXTRA PEEK

Home teams often place video cameras on the sideline to record the opposing team's signals. The cameras are placed on the sideline under the guise that they provide extra game tape for the home team's coaches. When road teams attempt to get credentials for their sideline cameramen, the applications are usually rejected.

Cheating-no need to explain
Gamesmanship

8) LOYALTY

There are a lot of coaching changes every offseason. Coaches who find new jobs often take the inside information from their old team and use it to help their new team. When a team knows a former coach is on the opposing sideline, it often changes its line calls.

Cheating
Gamesmanship-I think that is a given that a coach will know the ex-teams tendancies and the ex-team should know that---why there is a student-mentor thing

9) LET'S BE FRIENDS

When former NFL defensive back Eric Allen covered a quick wide receiver on a deep route, he would lock his arm with the receiver's arm to slow his opponent and keep him close. The technique worked well for two reasons.

''If the receiver tried to push me away, it would either disrupt his route or make it look like he was pushing off, resulting in a penalty,'' said Allen, who played in the league from 1988-2001. ''I also knew when the ball was coming without even having to turn and look because I could feel the receiver's arm coming up to make the catch.''

Cheating--obstructing the WR to run a route
Gamesmanship

10) MESSY IS BETTER

When the New England Patriots played host to the Indianapolis Colts and their high-octane offense in the 2004 AFC Divisional playoffs, the field at Gillette Stadium was left uncovered the week before the game, exposing it to the sleet and rain of the New England winter. The Colts lost 20-3.

''I do think it's something that should be monitored, and all stadiums should have the field turf,'' said Colts wide receiver Brandon Stokley before the game.

Said Pats coach Bill Belichick, ''My job is not to pull weeds.''

Cheating-mixed on this,but if the Texans cannot have the roof open on certain days,same rule should apply to the cold weather team..on the other hand -both teams play on the same field
Gamesmanship

11) FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES

When the Cleveland Browns played the New England Patriots in the 1995 AFC Wild Card round, Browns linebacker Carl Banks met an official before kickoff and told him he would jam Patriots tight end Ben Coates at the line of scrimmage. Coates spent most of the game screaming at the officials for the lack of holding calls. Banks, however, kept praising the officials while addressing the zebras by their first names. Asked about it 12 years later, Coates said: ''He got away with one--good for him. Linebackers are always trying to do that stuff.''

Cheating
Gamesmanship-tough one on that, but it is up to the refs to call a fair game, unless you are betting on the NBA(sarcasm0/b]

12) FAKING THEM OUT

Offensive linemen often pretend to go after defensive linemen's knees, causing the defensive linemen to delay just enough as the ball is snapped. That extra second is an eternity in the NFL.

[b]Cheating-don't like it, because of the "violence" of the NFL, knees are not something you joke or fake about
Gamesmanship

13) SPYMASTER?

Most teams send a scout to watch the game of the next opponent. The scout sits in the press box and tries to pick up signals from the other team. The team being scouted, however, will often have a coach on the sideline wearing a headset that is not plugged in, and he gives bogus signals to throw off the scout, as well as the opposing team.

Cheating
Gamesmanship-both teams do it....cat and mouse



my answers in bold
(obviously)

Wolf
08-12-2007, 11:04 PM
after rereading the questions .number 7 and 13 are about the same

I am mixed on that... queston 7 home team does it visitor can't question 13 both scouts can if teams chose that route...

and if what my Bills fan told me was true.. he said one of the bill's stated that they knew what the oilers were calling in that "infamous game"

The Pencil Neck
08-12-2007, 11:20 PM
If it's against the rules, then it's cheating. If there isn't a rule about it, then it's not cheating.

If it's against the law, then it can be considered to be against the rules and therefore, cheating.

GoPats
08-14-2007, 01:47 PM
Cool thread... thanks for posting it. I wish there were three categories:

- Cheating
- Gamesmanship
- Legal, but cheap and bush league

Some of these fell into #3 for me.

Mr. White
08-14-2007, 02:00 PM
I can't believe this one.

2) TOO TIGHT?

Defensive and offensive linemen are known for wearing tight jerseys so their opponents cannot get a grip on them. In the 1980s, players used many techniques to make their jerseys as tight as possible. Players today, however, can have their jerseys custom made. Seattle defensive end Patrick Kerney, in particular, is known for wearing an especially tight jersey.

''In today's game, it is hand-to-hand combat in the trenches, so to have an offensive or defensive lineman hold your jersey is a killer'' said former Bengals offensive lineman Dave Lapham, now an analyst on Cincinnati radio broadcasts.

Cheating

Never mind that holding is technically illegal as a blocking technique. If refs don't want to call it (and they often don't), then guys on the DL should have some kind of recourse to avoid getting held.

Mr teX
08-14-2007, 04:02 PM
Getting caught?

For the most part this is sad but true. I truly believe that if players were polled & asked would they cheat if they were guaranteed they wouldn't get caught, close to 70% would say yes.

As far as this:

1) SLIPPERY SLOPE

In the 1960s and '70s, offensive linemen often put Vaseline on their jerseys so defensive linemen could not get a good grip. In the 1980s, the substance of choice was silicone. ''But towards the end of my career, NFL referees would feel linemen's jerseys to check for any stuff," said former Oakland Raiders star wide receiver Tim Brown, who played in the NFL from 1988-2004.


65.1% Cheating - yes

34.9% Gamesmanship


2) TOO TIGHT?

Defensive and offensive linemen are known for wearing tight jerseys so their opponents cannot get a grip on them. In the 1980s, players used many techniques to make their jerseys as tight as possible. Players today, however, can have their jerseys custom made. Seattle defensive end Patrick Kerney, in particular, is known for wearing an especially tight jersey.

''In today's game, it is hand-to-hand combat in the trenches, so to have an offensive or defensive lineman hold your jersey is a killer'' said former Bengals offensive lineman Dave Lapham, now an analyst on Cincinnati radio broadcasts.


97.4% Gamesmanship no

2.6% Cheating


3) STICKY FINGERS

Lester Hayes, a defensive back for the Raiders from 1977-1986, was infamous for putting Stickum on his hands so he could catch the ball more easily. "The sole focus of our team was to win consistently," said Hayes, who helped the Raiders win Super Bowls XV and XVIII. "Whether it was a mental or a physical advantage, we were going to do whatever was necessary to win. Our attitude was that if we could get away with something, we were going to do it."


66.8% Cheating
33.2% Gamesmanship This right here is tricky b/c even though it might not be stickum, those gloves WR's, DB's & O-linemen use & are designed to do just what hayes was using stickum for.



4) MR. DECEPTION

Indianapolis quarterback Peyton Manning is known for deception. Countless times during a game, Manning will go to the line, get near his center, back away and call an audible. Manning's audibles are often meaningless, as they are designed to shift the defensive formation. The NFL made a rule that mandates that a quarterback must snap the ball if he places his hands under center. Defensive coordinators argue that Manning comes close to violating the new rule.


91.5% Gamesmanship

8.5% Cheating
Elements of both, b/c he was taking advantage of a loophole in the rule book.


5) SNOW JOB

On Dec. 12, 1982, Patriots coach Ron Meyer sent out Mark Henderson, an inmate on furlough, to plow a spot in the middle of a snowy field for kicker John Smith. He made the kick for a 3-0 Pats win, infuriating Miami coach Don Shula.

''That guy (Henderson) was out on the field and finished before I knew what had happened,'' Shula said. ''I talked with the official on our side of the field, and he said the same thing happened to him. The guy was on the field before they knew what he was doing. The Patriots will have to live with doing something like that.''


69.6% Cheating you've got an outdoor stadium so you have to deal with the elements just like the next man. plus, bringing someone out to do something that's not even part of the team is cheating.

30.4% Gamesmanship


6) SIGNAL INTERCEPT

After the Dolphins defeated the Patriots 21-0 in Miami last season, Dolphins linebacker Zach Thomas claimed he knew the Patriots' audibles. He wasn't kidding. Teams sometimes will place microphones on their defensive players to tape the opposing team's audibles. The team then matches the audibles with the play the offense runs. In the shutout loss to Miami, the Patriots played their worst game of the season, as Tom Brady was sacked four times. Coincidence?


51.2% Gamesmanship Gamesmanship at it's finest. It's no worse than than veiwing tape only this time you've got audio to back it up, LOL.

48.8% Cheating


7) A LITTLE EXTRA PEEK

Home teams often place video cameras on the sideline to record the opposing team's signals. The cameras are placed on the sideline under the guise that they provide extra game tape for the home team's coaches. When road teams attempt to get credentials for their sideline cameramen, the applications are usually rejected.


69.8% Cheating Gamesmanship, set-up dummy signals for them.

30.2% Gamesmanship


8) LOYALTY

There are a lot of coaching changes every offseason. Coaches who find new jobs often take the inside information from their old team and use it to help their new team. When a team knows a former coach is on the opposing sideline, it often changes its line calls.


91.7% Gamesmanship What, is it hear no evil, see no evil? I know things that could potentially help my team win.

8.3% Cheating


9) LET'S BE FRIENDS

When former NFL defensive back Eric Allen covered a quick wide receiver on a deep route, he would lock his arm with the receiver's arm to slow his opponent and keep him close. The technique worked well for two reasons.

''If the receiver tried to push me away, it would either disrupt his route or make it look like he was pushing off, resulting in a penalty,'' said Allen, who played in the league from 1988-2001. ''I also knew when the ball was coming without even having to turn and look because I could feel the receiver's arm coming up to make the catch.''


63.1% Gamesmanship

36.9% Cheating cheating b/c you're actively preventing another player from making a play.


10) MESSY IS BETTER

When the New England Patriots played host to the Indianapolis Colts and their high-octane offense in the 2004 AFC Divisional playoffs, the field at Gillette Stadium was left uncovered the week before the game, exposing it to the sleet and rain of the New England winter. The Colts lost 20-3.

''I do think it's something that should be monitored, and all stadiums should have the field turf,'' said Colts wide receiver Brandon Stokley before the game.

Said Pats coach Bill Belichick, ''My job is not to pull weeds.''


78.8% Gamesmanship gamesmanship

21.2% Cheating


11) FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES

When the Cleveland Browns played the New England Patriots in the 1995 AFC Wild Card round, Browns linebacker Carl Banks met an official before kickoff and told him he would jam Patriots tight end Ben Coates at the line of scrimmage. Coates spent most of the game screaming at the officials for the lack of holding calls. Banks, however, kept praising the officials while addressing the zebras by their first names. Asked about it 12 years later, Coates said: ''He got away with one--good for him. Linebackers are always trying to do that stuff.''


73.9% Gamesmanship Gamesmanship, the ref shouldn't be partial to anything

26.1% Cheating


12) FAKING THEM OUT

Offensive linemen often pretend to go after defensive linemen's knees, causing the defensive linemen to delay just enough as the ball is snapped. That extra second is an eternity in the NFL.


85.0% Gamesmanship It's gamesmanship although faking to do something like that which in essence your threatening someone's career is just dirty.

15.0% Cheating


13) SPYMASTER?

Most teams send a scout to watch the game of the next opponent. The scout sits in the press box and tries to pick up signals from the other team. The team being scouted, however, will often have a coach on the sideline wearing a headset that is not plugged in, and he gives bogus signals to throw off the scout, as well as the opposing team.


90.4% Gamesmanship See above.

9.6% Cheating

Wolf
09-11-2007, 10:36 PM
I wonder if the polls would change if voting started this week

gg no re
09-11-2007, 10:44 PM
I'd want Belichick on my team if nations had to go to war by playing football.