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Texans Horror
08-07-2007, 01:51 PM
From SI (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/don_banks/08/07/snap.judgments/index.html):


Matt Schaub will start his first game as a Texan on Saturday against the defending NFC champion Bears. With his much anticipated career in Houston off and running, here's the important question: Will Schaub turn out to be the next Rob Johnson?

Not that I'm wishing him any ill will or predicting failure. It's just that folks seem to be assuming he'll be the answer at quarterback in Houston, despite having precious little track record to go on.

The last time I remember so much faith and hope being invested in a quarterback who had played so little and proved even less, Buffalo was signing Johnson to a five-year, $25 million contract in early 1998, after trading a first and fourth-round pick to Jacksonville. At the time, Johnson had started exactly one game and thrown 35 passes in his first three NFL seasons, leading the Jags to a comeback 28-27 win over a mediocre Baltimore team on opening day 1997.

Subbing for the injured Mark Brunell, Johnson went 20-for-24 for 294 yards and two touchdown passes, and ran for a score despite playing on a sprained ankle that twice forced him from the game. The Bills and the rest of the NFL were smitten with Johnson's potential from that point on, and Buffalo awarded him an $8 million contract as part of its trade for him.

Johnson, of course, never measured up to the anticipation his arrival in Buffalo produced, and his four years with the team were mostly a disappointment. He started just 26 games in those seasons, feuded with, and was unseated by fellow quarterback Doug Flutie (later in 1998), and eventually alienated the Bills fans with his laid-back California surfer-dude persona. After Buffalo, Johnson became a journeyman QB, at best.

Here's where Schaub's situation is eerily similar: He too is getting his first shot as a starter in his fourth NFL season. Schaub started two games for the Falcons in his three years in Atlanta, but he made his name as a starter-in-waiting, largely based on his performance in one game, just as Johnson did. In October 2005, Schaub started at home in place of Michael Vick against the defending Super Bowl champion Patriots, whose defense was fairly well decimated against the run at the time, with the likes of Monty Beisel and Chad Brown in the starting lineup.

Schaub was boffo in a 31-28 loss, throwing for 298 yards and three touchdowns, for a eye-popping 112.1 QB rating. But he owns just one other start in the NFL (also a loss), and his six career touchdown passes and six interceptions have helped result in a ho-hum 69.2 passer rating, with a 52.2 completion percentage.

Those are pretty modest numbers considering Houston flopped first-round picks with Atlanta this spring, and then shipped the Falcons second-rounders in both '07 and '08 to acquire Schaub's services. As part of the trade, Schaub was given a six-year, $48 million contract that included $7 million in guarantees, and is worth $20 million in the deal's first three years.

As the Schaub era in Houston begins, keep the Rob Johnson era in Buffalo in mind. It's a comparison that may not stand the test of time, but it's sounding pretty topical about now.



For discussion, as we near the first pre-season game.

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 01:55 PM
This should be an interesting dicussion... :hmmm:

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 02:03 PM
The one thing the writer didn't really acknowledge is where the guys played and who they played under. Levy was gone at Buffalo and you are in a totally different environment. Schaub is being tutored by a QB guy who has had success tutoring QBs. The Buffalo situation was a mess with Phillips and Gregg Williams. Apples and oranges to me.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 02:03 PM
The Kubiak/Smith era is riding on Schaub being a success.

IMO, the Texans didn't have to trade for Schaub to get to 8-8 in 2007.

Just because you get divorced, doesn't mean you have to get remarried.

Flexibility would have been nice in 2008, but marketing seems to always trump most things in the Texans decision making regarding the QB position (except for one instant in 2006 in the 1st round of the draft).

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 02:05 PM
Schaub is being tutored by a QB guy who has had success tutoring guys.

Kubiak hasn't had much success in his first year at the Texans in QB decisions.

eriadoc
08-07-2007, 02:05 PM
He's just about spot on. Schaub has a lot to prove. I don't fault the Texans for taking a chance there, and I don't fault them for making a move to correct an earlier mistake. Some would like to bash the Texans for that earlier mistake, but to me, they owned it and made a move to correct it. We'll see if it works out, but at least they made a move to try and improve the team.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 02:06 PM
He's just about spot on. Schaub has a lot to prove. I don't fault the Texans for taking a chance there, and I don't fault them for making a move to correct an earlier mistake. Some would like to bash the Texans for that earlier mistake, but to me, they owned it and made a move to correct it. We'll see if it works out, but at least they made a move to try and improve the team.

The mistake that you are referring to, is it Carr?

The Texans made more than one mistake with Carr.

It first started in drafting him, and then I could go on and on...

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 02:13 PM
Kubiak hasn't had much success in his first year at the Texans in QB decisions.

How was that his fault? So you sweep all his success with QBs out and because the team resigns Carr, forces his hand, and Carr fails, Kubes didn't do his job? What did you expect? You ever hear of lipstick on a pig...there you go. If you are in anyway talking about VY, Carr, etc, etc...then Kubes really didn't have a choice.

Texans Horror
08-07-2007, 02:13 PM
I think Rob Johnson is a worst-case scenario. Schaub has better tools and coaches around him (e.g., Kubiak) than Rob did, so while I am not sold on his instant-success, I think in the end Schaub will end up a much better QB and a solid choice.

HOU-TEX
08-07-2007, 02:15 PM
Rob Johnson's still better than Carr. :hides:

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 02:19 PM
How was that his fault? So you sweep all his success with QBs out and because the team resigns Carr, forces his hand, and Carr fails, Kubes didn't do his job? What did you expect? You ever hear of lipstick on a pig...there you go. If you are in anyway talking about VY, Carr, etc, etc...then Kubes really didn't have a choice.

There is an old saying, "the buck stops here."

Kubiak shouldn't have taken the job then.

If an owner is pushing personnel decisions on you, that should be a big red flag.

So, yes I blame Kubiak regarding Carr.

I would have preferred VY, but there were 2 other highly regarded QBs to choose from at #1 last year. An excellent opportunity lost in my opinion. Not to mention, saving $8 million.

If Schaub doesn't live up to expectations, Kubiak is not the QB guru that everybody thinks he is or he is just a "yes man" to McNair.

Either way, his head coaching career will be suffering.

Lucky
08-07-2007, 02:19 PM
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.

powerfuldragon
08-07-2007, 02:20 PM
shoulda picked vince.

/runs away.

Malloy
08-07-2007, 02:23 PM
He's just about spot on. Schaub has a lot to prove. I don't fault the Texans for taking a chance there, and I don't fault them for making a move to correct an earlier mistake. Some would like to bash the Texans for that earlier mistake, but to me, they owned it and made a move to correct it. We'll see if it works out, but at least they made a move to try and improve the team.

No reason for me to post when someone obviously shares my opinion :)

Vega
08-07-2007, 02:28 PM
IMO, the Texans didn't have to trade for Schaub to get to 8-8 in 2007.

Just because you get divorced, doesn't mean you have to get remarried.

No, but the goal is not to just be 8-8 in 2007. The Texans probably could have gone 8-8 without Schaub this year, but it's unlikely that they would improve on that next year and THAT is really the goal. If the Texans go 8-8 this year and then 8-8 again next year, that's not so good. But if they go 8-8 this year and then 10-6 next year, that's good.

Don't measure the Schaub trade based on this years record.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 02:29 PM
There is an old saying, "the buck stops here."

Kubiak shouldn't have taken the job then.

If an owner is pushing personnel decisions on you, that should be a big red flag.

So, yes I blame Kubiak regarding Carr.

I would have preferred VY, but there were 2 other highly regarded QBs to choose from at #1 last year. An excellent opportunity lost in my opinion. Not to mention, saving $8 million.

If Schaub doesn't live up to expectations, Kubiak is not the QB guru that everybody thinks he is or he is just a "yes man" to McNair.

Either way, his head coaching career will be suffering.

That is alot of "if"s. When guys interview in the NFL and need to get their foot in the door then they take on many things...past coaches players, staff and owners who have agendas. Saying he should not have taken the job is easy to say and in my book a ridiculous statement. The Carr signing, which wasn't in Kubes hands, was placed on his lap. Therefore all the dominos you laid out were out of his hands. His job starts now. What you are saying is that any QB out there can be fixed by a "QB guy." That makes no sense considering the NFL is littered with sub-par QBs. You simplified a situation way too much. NOW, if he can't get Schaub to work after a couple of years then he is in trouble but to start in on him after 1 year is beyond myopic. Schaub was Kubiak and Smiths first jump into the fray and they have to live with it. Expecting miracles in Year 1....not sure what to say. The goal is to progressively build into a consistent winner.

Vega
08-07-2007, 02:32 PM
This article blatantly ignores any comparison between Schaub and Johnson other than they were both backup QBs with one good game under them. I'd like to think Kubes and Smith looked at more than just that one game before making a decision.

I don't remember the Rob Johnson era all that well, but I do remember that he wasn't a great leader with his teammates, he was slow to make decisions, and he didn't have the greatest work ethic.

So far, and yes I know there's not a lot to go on, Schaub seems to be passing all those tests.

real
08-07-2007, 02:42 PM
Kubiak shouldn't have taken the job then.


Signed,



A guy who hasn't spent most of their adult life employed by the NFL and doesn't have a passion for coaching

GP
08-07-2007, 02:44 PM
The writer says the comparison is eerily similar?

It's far from it.

What the writer FAILED (in a big way) to do, is to connect how Schaub also has a laid-back surfer dude attitude like he describes Ron Johnson as having.

1. Schaub is not similar to Rob Johnson in terms of personality.

2. Schaub was an accomplished QB in a WCO for several years, and now is running a WCO-type of system under Kubiak and Little Shanny...two guys who obviously know what they're doing with QBs/WRs.

Our o-line and possibly the run game, with assistance from Kubiak/Sherman, reduced QB sacks by 26 from 2005 to 2006. Carr had several games where he did not get sacked even once, and yet what did David "do" in those games? He went 16-for-20something and about 160 yards vs. Indy...that's what he did. How do you stay un-sacked and go for 160 yards in an entire game? David is stale bread. Period.

I am not ready to anoint Schaub as a HOF'er and fit his golden blazer yet...but I am fairly confident that it cannot get worse with Schaub at QB.

ABD (Anybody But David) is OK with me. We went five years with the guy, he got rich, we got hosed, and we deserve a new direction at QB.

real
08-07-2007, 02:48 PM
IMO, the Texans didn't have to trade for Schaub to get to 8-8 in 2007.

Just because you get divorced, doesn't mean you have to get remarried.


Any QB that they are going to go after is going to be evaluated by the Texans...not the hype machine that is ESPN....

Question: If the Texans evaluated Schaub and came to the conclusion that he was a QB that could take this team to the next level, why should they wait and take a gamble that a QB would be available next year, when they had what they wanted this year ?

That doesn't make any sense...


That's almost like saying the Miami Dolphins have an ideal QB situation.

real
08-07-2007, 02:49 PM
The writer says the comparison is eerily similar?

It's far from it.

What the writer FAILED (in a big way) to do, is to connect how Schaub also has a laid-back surfer dude attitude like he describes Ron Johnson as having.

1. Schaub is not similar to Rob Johnson in terms of personality.

2. Schaub was an accomplished QB in a WCO for several years, and now is running a WCO-type of system under Kubiak and Little Shanny...two guys who obviously know what they're doing with QBs/WRs.

Our o-line and possibly the run game, with assistance from Kubiak/Sherman, reduced QB sacks by 26 from 2005 to 2006. Carr had several games where he did not get sacked even once, and yet what did David "do" in those games? He went 16-for-20something and about 160 yards vs. Indy...that's what he did. How do you stay un-sacked and go for 160 yards in an entire game? David is stale bread. Period.

I am not ready to anoint Schaub as a HOF'er and fit his golden blazer yet...but I am fairly confident that it cannot get worse with Schaub at QB.

ABD (Anybody But David) is OK with me. We went five years with the guy, he got rich, we got hosed, and we deserve a new direction at QB.

The end.

Porky
08-07-2007, 03:02 PM
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.

One of your best posts imo, and right on target. Good job! :devilpig:

quicksilver
08-07-2007, 03:18 PM
Something else to consider is that Kubiak and Smith had the recommendation of Bill Musgrave that Schaub has what it takes to succeed. Musgrave backed up Elway while Kubiak was QB coach in Denver, and Musgrave coached Schaub both in college and in Atlanta.

Who personally vouched for Rob J to the Buffalo staff?

real
08-07-2007, 03:21 PM
Who personally vouched for Rob J to the Buffalo staff?


Rob Johnson

The1ApplePie
08-07-2007, 03:22 PM
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2007, 03:22 PM
This is the Texans until they win .

http://www.ringsport.com.au/Uploads/Images/PICT0241.JPG

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 03:28 PM
shoulda picked vince.

Perhaps...except for that whole messy situation about Young is not a WCO QB. Minor detail, of course.

If an owner is pushing personnel decisions on you, that should be a big red flag.

So, yes I blame Kubiak regarding Carr.

If a frog had wings it wouldn't hit it's butt every time it jumps.

What, exactly, is the point of a constant "what if" game? Seriously, what's done is done, and no matter who you want to 'blame', Carr was signed and is gone, a mistake owned by the FO, we didn't pick Cutler, Young, Leinart, or Quinn, and Schaub is our starter. End of story. Period.

We'll live and die with Schaub, and while I certainly understand the doubts right now, I'm lost about the abject pessimism regarding the guy.

Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Don't forget being Steve Young's QB coach during his MVP and Super Bowl Champion season.

Obviously Kubiak is a hack because he couldn't fix YKW. Riiiiiiiiiight. :ok:

And please don't tell me you give Brady Quinn the benefit of the doubt but don't afford the same to Schaub.

brakos82
08-07-2007, 03:32 PM
I feel a hijack coming on... :gun:

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2007, 03:37 PM
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Brister started with the Steelers ... in fact I had to watch a playoff game where they showed his Mom 1000 times .

Griese had his moments and still plays .

Carr .... Benny Hinn could have cured him .

Texanmike02
08-07-2007, 03:37 PM
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Griese I'll give you, but he's looked horrible everywhere else.

But how was a Brister who had been out of football for a year and came in to play backup for a year a bust.

As for Plummer, look what he's done with Kubes... then look at last year.

I think

Mike

nunusguy
08-07-2007, 03:42 PM
There is an old saying, "the buck stops here."

Kubiak shouldn't have taken the job then.

If an owner is pushing personnel decisions on you, that should be a big red flag.

So, yes I blame Kubiak regarding Carr.

I would have preferred VY, but there were 2 other highly regarded QBs to choose from at #1 last year. An excellent opportunity lost in my opinion. Not to mention, saving $8 million.

If Schaub doesn't live up to expectations, Kubiak is not the QB guru that everybody thinks he is or he is just a "yes man" to McNair.

Either way, his head coaching career will be suffering.
Certainly an unpopular take in these parts, but nevertheless accurate IMO.
And if Carr's retention was basically McNair call, for the sake of Kubiaks credibiltity we should have got a more definitive disclosure from the owner.
But I do totally support the trade for Schaub. Very expensive and very risky but worth it, really necessary assuming Schaubs our guy.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Don't forget being Steve Young's QB coach during his MVP and Super Bowl Champion season.

Obviously Kubiak is a hack because he couldn't fix YKW. Riiiiiiiiiight. :ok:

And please don't tell me you give Brady Quinn the benefit of the doubt but don't afford the same to Schaub.

You beat me to it. He also failed to mention what Plummer's career consisted of while in Az and what he did in Denver. Tale of two cities. His "moments" were mostly under one coach.

real
08-07-2007, 03:56 PM
If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Sure...

That's why Quinn fell all the way to 22....

Because he was such a hott commodity...gotcha :ok:

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 04:16 PM
That is alot of "if"s. When guys interview in the NFL and need to get their foot in the door then they take on many things...past coaches players, staff and owners who have agendas. Saying he should not have taken the job is easy to say and in my book a ridiculous statement. The Carr signing, which wasn't in Kubes hands, was placed on his lap.

Being a successful coach is hard enough, it becomes next to impossible if you take on an untouchable golden boy.

If Kubiak couldn't handle that situation, he better learn from it and figure out how to handle it in the future.

Therefore all the dominos you laid out were out of his hands. His job starts now. What you are saying is that any QB out there can be fixed by a "QB guy." That makes no sense considering the NFL is littered with sub-par QBs. You simplified a situation way too much.

Kubiak is the head coach and is paid accordingly. Which means he is responsible. Just because he acquiescenced to the Carr decision doesn't mean he isn't responsible.

He is responsible!

And so far his so-called great QB guru skills for the Houston Texans has produced squat (the Carr resigning, not picking a QB at #1 last year, dumping Carr)! You don't have to be football expert to realize that Kubiak has made very poor decisions regarding the QB position.

So now he has doubled down and bet the house.

Kubiak could be smelling like a rose by the middle of the season with Schaub, but so far, he has gotten off to a terrible start. If Schaub doesn't pan out, trust me they are going to start at the beginning of his mistakes, Carr and #1 draft pick of 2006.

NOW, if he can't get Schaub to work after a couple of years then he is in trouble but to start in on him after 1 year is beyond myopic. Schaub was Kubiak and Smiths first jump into the fray and they have to live with it. Expecting miracles in Year 1....not sure what to say. The goal is to progressively build into a consistent winner.

I am not starting in on Kubiak, it's a fact Kubiak has gotten off to a rough start at the QB position.

I never said I was expecting miracles.

My opinion is they could have gone with Sage and been flexible in the future. There is so much QB talent out there. If they really believe Schaub is the guy, then great. But sometimes, people have to get married after they get divorced. Sometimes teams have to get a QB because there is an opening, example Culpepper. Very different situation, but the Texans didn't have to make move on the position, unless you really factor in marketing concerns.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 04:24 PM
Signed,



A guy who hasn't spent most of their adult life employed by the NFL and doesn't have a passion for coaching

If he took Carr on with the deck stacked against him, that is his choice.

Kubiak should get no freebes whatsoever. It's his career on the line and should speak up accordingly

He still made a decision and is a grown man that can take the responsibility.

Kubiak is paid pretty well anyway, and doesn't deserve any sympathy or kid-glove treatment.

Runner
08-07-2007, 04:31 PM
I think there is some risk in Schaub. He has limited game experience and until he plays full time, there will be unanswered questions. He might succeed, he might not. There is little evidence for knowledge either way. Belief, however, is another story.

The coaching staff is staking a lot on Schaub. They paid a high price and he has to be successful for this staff to succeed. There won't be any do overs in a couiple of years if he busts.

hadaad
08-07-2007, 04:40 PM
Kubiak should get no freebes whatsoever. It's his career on the line and should speak up accordingly

He still made a decision and is a grown man that can take the responsibility.

Kubiak is paid pretty well anyway, and doesn't deserve any sympathy or kid-glove treatment.

I agree with hollywood on this one. Kubiak is paid to coach and last year, when things weren't going so well, he would constantly say things like: "This one's on us as coaches, this one's on me, this is my fault etc."

That came across as disingenuous at the time and it still struck me the wrong way. If it's your fault Carr wasn't ready to play, why are you here and why is he gone? It seems to me that Kubiak feels he has a long enough leash that he can take the blame for things that aren't his fault so that he will silently get the credit when things go right.

However, this is an important year for Kubiak, in my opinion. He has to show that with the guy that HE selected, his offense can be dominant against defenses like Jacksonville's.

I like the Schaub pick-up. It was a clear communication to me that this franchise has taken off its diapers. If production isn't there, the position will be upgraded. Sure, it was an expensive lesson but why not go with a guy you think can do the job?

And I sure hope that Schaub can do the job.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 04:44 PM
Being a successful coach is hard enough, it becomes next to impossible if you take on an untouchable golden boy.

If Kubiak couldn't handle that situation, he better learn from it and figure out how to handle it in the future.



Kubiak is the head coach and is paid accordingly. Which means he is responsible. Just because he acquiescenced to the Carr decision doesn't mean he isn't responsible.

He is responsible!

And so far his so-called great QB guru skills for the Houston Texans has produced squat (the Carr resigning, not picking a QB at #1 last year, dumping Carr)! You don't have to be football expert to realize that Kubiak has made very poor decisions regarding the QB position.

So now he has doubled down and bet the house.

Kubiak could be smelling like a rose by the middle of the season with Schaub, but so far, he has gotten off to a terrible start. If Schaub doesn't pan out, trust me they are going to start at the beginning of his mistakes, Carr and #1 draft pick of 2006.



I am not starting in on Kubiak, it's a fact Kubiak has gotten off to a rough start at the QB position.

I never said I was expecting miracles.

My opinion is they could have gone with Sage and been flexible in the future. There is so much QB talent out there. If they really believe Schaub is the guy, then great. But sometimes, people have to get married after they get divorced. Sometimes teams have to get a QB because there is an opening, example Culpepper. Very different situation, but the Texans didn't have to make move on the position, unless you really factor in marketing concerns.

I'm not sure where to start here because there is so much generalization.

1) Kubiak handled the situation as any coach would. He gave him the tools and the guy didn't pan out. Therefore he is gone. What you aren't grasping is that the decision was made to keep Carr before the hire. According to your philosophy our only choice was to take the worst coach possible....because only a weak man would take a QB that was forced on him. That is what your statement amounts to. Your stating he is responsible for a move that the owner made and a lame duck GM signed off on doesn't make it so. He wasn't even running that draft. So he had no responsibilty but to coach and scout to the best of his ability. The QB was a 4 year failure. Again, lipstick on a pig. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about this. Your either stating that we were stuck with a lame coach or that Kubiak was making the decisions. Both are false. The first decision he has made regarding QBs is to persue Schaub. Please understand that. He could only try and work with what he had. Once Carr was resigned, the drafting of a QB and everything else you stated was non-existent.

2) Where did you get that there are so many QBs out there?LMAO. Dude, the league is saturated with hacks who can barely play back-up and most college guys never pan out. That is such an over the top blanket statement, I don't even know what to say.

Kubiak has been here a year and got a top FA QB. His job will rest on the move. You are reaching with the "rough start" thing. I really wish people would be a little more realistic about what happens in the NFL. Coaches take jobs with stipulations daily. A guy with no head coaching background isn't going to tell the owner what to do if he wants the job. During the season, there is something called coach speak where a guy has to toe the company line until he can get "his" guys in. Some of you are acting like a new coach can come in start disrupting anything they want.

This is the real "Year 1." He made the moves. He took responsibility, along with Smith. He took a leap of faith.

real
08-07-2007, 04:51 PM
If he took Carr on with the deck stacked against him, that is his choice.

Kubiak should get no freebes whatsoever. It's his career on the line and should speak up accordingly

He still made a decision and is a grown man that can take the responsibility.

Kubiak is paid pretty well anyway, and doesn't deserve any sympathy or kid-glove treatment.

But, But, But, But....

David is gone and Kubiak is still here...

Maybe David oughtta think twice before being drafted #1 overall next time...


What you're saying is not relevant because for all you know Kubiak's whole plan could have been to ditch David asap, and go in a different direction...

My point is that it's easy for you to sit here and say that a man should ahve turned down his dream job because it wasn't the "perfect" situation...That's bologna....and you know it....

David Carr being here has no affect on Kubiak's tenure nor success here in Houston so I'm not really getting your point...

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure where to start here because there is so much generalization.

1) Kubiak handled the situation as any coach would. He gave him the tools and the guy didn't pan out. Therefore he is gone. What ypu aren't grasping is that the decision was made to keep Carr before the hire. According to your philosophy our only choice was to take the worst coach possible....because only a weak man would take a QB that was forced on him. That is what your statement amounts to. Your stating he is responsible for a move that the owner made and a lame duck GM signed off on doesn't make it so. He wasn't even running that draft. So he had no responsibilty but to coach and scout to the best of his ability. The QB was a 4 year failure. Again, lipstick on a pig. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about this. Your either stating that we were stuck with a lame coach or that Kubiak was making the decisions. Both are false. The first decision he has made regarding QBs is to persue Schaub. Please understand that. He could only try and work with what he had. Once Carr was resigned, the drafting of a QB and everything else you stated was non-existent.

2) Where did you get that there are so many QBs out there?LMAO. Dude, the league is saturated with hacks who can barely play back-up and most college guys never pan out. That is such an over the top blanket statement, I don't even know what to say.

Kubiak has been here a year and got a top FA QB. His job will rest on the move. You are reaching with the "rough start" thing.

First, I am not going to give Kubiak a pass on the issue with Carr in any way whatsoever.

Second, nothing Kubiak has done in his first year has shown he is a QB guru. For that matter, anyone could have done what Kubiak did with Carr, which was the same thing that Capers did with Carr.

Third, Schuab may not pan out, see my first and second points.

Fourth, I didn't say there are many QBs out there with superior talent, but that doesn't mean you have to land Schaub immediately. Again, that goes back to the attitude of, well I am getting divorced, so I need to get remarried.

I am not saying Schaub is a bust. That remains to be seen, but something needs to be shown by midway point of the season. I am not talking about necessarily wins, but some performance of plays that shows he is the guy that can be a top tier QB.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 04:56 PM
But, But, But, But....

David is gone and Kubiak is still here...

Maybe David oughtta think twice before being drafted #1 overall next time...


What you're saying is not relevant because for all you know Kubiak's whole plan could have been to ditch David asap, and go in a different direction...

My point is that it's easy for you to sit here and say that a man should ahve turned down his dream job because it wasn't the "perfect" situation...That's bologna....and you know it....

David Carr being here has no affect on Kubiak's tenure nor success here in Houston so I'm not really getting your point...

Kubiak does not get a free pass on anything in my opinion, including David Carr.

That is why he is the head coach!

real
08-07-2007, 04:57 PM
There is little evidence for knowledge either way. Belief, however, is another story.

I don't understand this line of thinking...

If there is little evidence that Schaub would be successful why was he THE most coveted F/A QB and why did we even go after him ? There has to be something about the guy, because if we spent two seconds on a guy who we're just taking a 50/50 shot on with "little knowledge either way" I'd be pissed and I'd expect everyone else to feel the same way...

Obviously there are a lot of people who think he'll be successful...myself included....

And no it's not based on a "belief"...It's based on evidence....

Then there are those that choose to ignore the positives and all the things that point towards him being successful here in Houston and going with the what "if" viewpoint....

Whatever floats your boat I guess....

* Any QB we brought in after David was going to be unproven on this level...If they were proven then we wouldn't have gottne them, or we would still be needing a young player to groom...Kubiak and the organization saw something in Schaub that they liked so they went after him.....This decision was based on knowledge and research and not some peeing in the wind whim they got....

real
08-07-2007, 05:03 PM
Kubiak does not get a free pass on anything in my opinion, including David Carr.

That is why he is the head coach!

What are you talking about ?

He's a human...Humans make mistakes...I'm not saying he did indeed make a mistake or do something wrong, but if he did so what...

Do you want to spank him now ? Take away his lollie pop ? What is your point ?

Has there ever been a headcoach that never made a poor decision or questionalbe move ? There have been coaches to pick first round bust yet go on to win it all...

I really don't understand where you're trying to go with this, unless your point is that Kubiaks assumed failire with David Carr means he's not the guru that he was thought to be....If thats your assertation, then that's just silly...

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 05:04 PM
I don't understand this line of thinking...

If there is little evidence that Schaub would be successful why was he THE most coveted F/A QB and why did we even go after him ? There has to be something about the guy, because if we spent two seconds on a guy who we're just taking a 50/50 shot on with "little knowledge either way" I'd be pissed and I'd expect everyone else to feel the same way...

Obviously there are a lot of people who think he'll be successful...myself included....

And no it's not based on a "belief"...It's based on evidence....

Then there are those that choose to ignore the positives and all the things that point towards him being successful here in Houston and going with the what "if" viewpoint....

Whatever floats your boat I guess....

There are no guarantees Schaub will be successful.

I think he will be just fine.though

But, the Schaub decision doesn't mean the decisions Kubiak made before Schaub were right. Other than the screwups he made before made the opportunity to make the decision to get Schaub.

Bottom line, Kubiak's first year of QBs decisions are terrible with the exception of Schaub because we don't know yet. Schaub could just be a another item to add to the list.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 05:04 PM
First, I am not going to give Kubiak a pass on the issue with Carr in any way whatsoever.

Second, nothing Kubiak has done in his first year has shown he is a QB guru. For that matter, anyone could have done what Kubiak did with Carr, which was the same thing that Capers did with Carr.

Third, Schuab may not pan out, see my first and second points.

Fourth, I didn't say there are many QBs out there with superior talent, but that doesn't mean you have to land Schaub immediately. Again, that goes back to the attitude of, well I am getting divorced, so I need to get remarried.

I am not saying Schaub is a bust. That remains to be seen, but something needs to be shown by midway point of the season. I am not talking about necessarily wins, but some performance of plays that shows he is the guy that can be a top tier QB.

This post is why a football debate with you right now is worthless. You have stated nothing but wild generalizations. Basically that "Schaub might not be good" because YOU stated Carr was bad and anyone could have coached him. How ridiculous is that?You still haven't stated why you won't give Kubes a pass but you would have rather had the worse coach available....after all, only weak man would have taken this job. By the way, I'm glad Carr is gone but we did win more games and our sacks went down so Kubiak did something. Your whole attitude towards a coach taking over a poorly run organization is so unrealistic. You did say there were QBs out there..like they were growing on trees..."There is so much QB talent out there." It is false. There are unknowns and very few top flight guys in the league. Are the one who called 610 and asked when Sage would start?I'm done beating my head..lol. Did you ever think Kubes made good decisions...and one was to play his hand, watch it fail and then put his people in place?Afterall, they weren't going to win last year. I forgot, you expected perfection and the playoffs.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 05:06 PM
What are you talking about ?

He's a human...Humans make mistakes...I'm not saying he did indeed make a mistake or do something wrong, but if he did so what...

Do you want to spank him now ? Take away his lollie pop ? What is your point ?

Has their ever been a headcoach that never made a poor decision or questionalbe move ? There have been coaches to pick first round bust yet go on to win it all...

I really don't understand where you're trying to go with this, unless your point is that Kubiaks assumed failire with David Carr means he's not the guru that he was thought to be....If thats your assertation, then that's just silly...

Point is, you keep making decisions like that, and you get fired.

Schaub could be just an addition to another long list of reasons why Kubiak is not a QB guru.

Kubiak is running out of chances. Point is, Carr was a chance he burned. That's why he shouldn't have accepted that if he didn't want it in the first place.

tsip
08-07-2007, 05:08 PM
This thread is too funny! First, our fan base was founded on making excuses for our qb. Second, the media bought into the excuses and defended the qb's poor play and lack of results,

Now, finally, that fan base and media are on the same page---all without the new qb even starting a game, yet. And, did they even mention the OL...maybe they did-I was laughing so hard I was crying...

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 05:10 PM
This post is why a football debate with you right now is worthless. You have stated nothing but wild generalizations. Basically that "Schaub might not be good" because YOU stated Carr was bad and anyone could have coached him. How ridiculous is that?You still haven't stated why you won't give Kubes a pass but you would have rather had the worse coach available....after all, only weak man would have taken this job. By the way, I'm glad Carr is gone but we did win more games and our sacks went down so Kubiak did something. Your whole attitude towards a coach taking over a poorly run organization is so unrealistic. You did say there were QBs out there..like they were growing on trees..."There is so much QB talent out there." It is false. There are unknowns and very few top flight guys in the league. Are the one who called 610 and asked when Sage would start?I'm done beating my head..lol. Did you ever think Kubes made good decisions...and one was to play his hand, watch it fail and then put his people in place?Afterall, they weren't going to win last year. I forgot, you expected perfection and the playoffs.

Talk about generalizations, you are completely generalizing me.

Example, I am not expecting playoffs and never mentioned that in this thread. You make several other assumptions about my comments but are reading way too much into them.

Look, Kubiak has made poor QB decisions thus far. Schaub is another unknown risk no matter what you say.

Kubiak should not get a free pass on Carr in any way what so ever.

If you wanna say I am generalizing, well, that is what a message board is for.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Point is, you keep making decisions like that, and you get fired.

Schaub could be just an addition to another long list of reasons why Kubiak is not a QB guru.

Kubiak is running out of chances. Point is, Carr was a chance he burned. That's why he shouldn't have accepted that if he didn't want it in the first place.


Long list? Running out of chances?..LMAO..he has been coach a year!!

Unreal

real
08-07-2007, 05:11 PM
Point is, you keep making decisions like that, and you get fired.

Schaub could be just an addition to another long list of reasons why Kubiak is not a QB guru.

Or he could be the greatest thing since canned pineapples....

Then what does that do to his legacy, and guru status ?

Better yet, what does it do to this whole conversation ?



Kubiak is running out of chances. Point is, Carr was a chance he burned. That's why he shouldn't have accepted that if he didn't want it in the first place


I'm sorry...I didn't realize it was that crucial Mr. McNai...errrr....hollywood_texan...


LOL...What are you gonna do ? Fire him yourself ?

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 05:14 PM
Talk about generalizations, you are completely generalizing me.

Example, I am not expecting playoffs and never mentioned that in this thread. You make several other assumptions about my comments but are reading way too much into them.

Look, Kubiak has made poor QB decisions thus far. Schaub is another unknown risk no matter what you say.

Kubiak should not get a free pass on Carr in any way what so ever.

If you wanna say I am generalizing, well, that is what a message board is for.


How am I generalizing?I'm giving you the FACTS of the situation..how it went down with the owner, GM and others. You are telling me that the NFL is a league where coaches with no head coaching experience show up, turn down dream jobs, tell off owners and start running the show all the while turning 4 year atrocious QBs into winners. None of that is generalizing. If you are stating Kubes failed and Carr was a failure because of him, then you are stating he should have been a top line QB...in one year..and we should have been winning. I guess Jerry Jones should have fired Jimmy J after 1-15.

And if you read anything I wrote before writing..I doubt..you would see that I stated over and over that Schaub was risky and that his job, over time depends on it.

Runner
08-07-2007, 05:19 PM
I don't understand this line of thinking...

If there is little evidence that Schaub would be successful why was he THE most coveted F/A QB and why did we even go after him ?

You answer your own question on the next post:

What are you talking about ?

He's a human...Humans make mistakes...

I'm guessing you just don't want to even consider another point of view. That is why you don't understand.

Weren't Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, and about 100 other busts also highly coveted? Is that evidence they were successful?

===================

And now to quibble about words.


And no it's not based on a "belief"...It's based on evidence....



We operate our live based on predictions of what will happen. Some predictions have high confidence - the sun will rise in the morning. Some don't - guessing which route to work will be fastest any particular day. Schaub's ultimate success is a prediction based on evidence; not a fact or item of "knowledge"

If you have knowledge of the future, and not belief (predictions if that word offends you), you need to get into the stock market. Or lottery - it's quicker.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 05:22 PM
If you are stating Kubes failed and Carr was a failure because of him

You pay a guy $8 million as a roster bonus and in less than year you can't trade the guy and you end up cutting him, that is a failure. I think we are looking at that decision from different perspectives.

Mine is, Kubiak was the head coach when the $8 million was paid to Carr, it was under his watch.

Kubiak hasn't shown one thing that he is a QB guru coach thus far for the Texans. That can change in the blink of an eye, and we'll be waiting until then.

If Schaub doesn't pan out, then he will just be added to an already developing list of failures by Kubiak in the QB department while the head coach of the Texans.

Point is, Kubiak's decisions and responsiblities started when he became the head coach of the Texans. Zero free passes!

The1ApplePie
08-07-2007, 05:23 PM
Steve Young already had an MVP before Kubes got there.

Plummer came from one of the worst teams in the NFL to one with great running backs and the best line in football.

So Kubes is a QB Guru because he coached two guys that were already HOFers before he showed up, and then sucked with all the other QBs?

I wanted Whisenhunt or Martz for HC myself in 2006.

Anyone know if Payton or Mangini interviewed with the Texans?

real
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
I'm guessing you just don't want to even consider another point of view. That is why you don't understand.

Weren't Ryan Leaf, Tony Mandarich, and about 100 other busts also highly coveted? Is that evidence they were successful?



Yes they were....

Now find me one post that guarantees Shcaub won't bust...



What does one man's fortunes have to do with another's ?

If we're talking strictly about football, there is more evidence leaning towards Shaub's success rather than failure, otherwise we wouldn't have traded for him...

Sure it's possible that he will bust, but no one says he won't...

Schaub's ultimate success is a prediction based on evidence; not a fact or item of "knowledge"

Again...Find me one post where someone guarantees he won't bust...


*It's not about looking at other view points...It's about my individual perception.....I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that Schaub has 100% shot at success...But yet we have a few posters that feel the need to constantly point that out....

Never coming with anything of substance, just the old what "if" and the old "because this happened to that QB" reasoning...That gets old...

Lucky
08-07-2007, 05:43 PM
Anyone know if Payton or Mangini interviewed with the Texans?
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

Runner
08-07-2007, 05:45 PM
*It's not about looking at other view points...It's about my individual perception.....I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe that Schaub has 100% shot at success...But yet we have a few posters that feel the need to constantly point that out....

Never coming with anything of substance, just the old what "if" and the old "because this happened to that QB" reasoning...That gets old...

It's a message board - everyone likes to post their own individual perceptions. I bet some people think "That gets old" when they get talked down to for no other reason than that their opinion doesn't agree with someone else's world view.

I like good debate. Sometimes I learn something and change my mind. "I'm tired of hearing that argument" isn't good debate to me. It lacks certain substance.

========================

I didn't think my post that you took to task was all that bad about negativism toward Schaub anyway. I even highlighted the "if" in bold red so people would understand it was a big if.

I think there is some risk in Schaub. He has limited game experience and until he plays full time, there will be unanswered questions. He might succeed, he might not. There is little evidence for knowledge either way. Belief, however, is another story.

The coaching staff is staking a lot on Schaub. They paid a high price and he has to be successful for this staff to succeed. There won't be any do overs in a couiple of years if he busts.

Mr. White
08-07-2007, 05:52 PM
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

I think Kippy Brown was the only one one.

Honoring Earl 34
08-07-2007, 05:54 PM
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

Pat Hill .... I can't imagine why people would think that Kubiak had to tell McNair Carr could lead them to a Super Bowl .

Lucky
08-07-2007, 05:56 PM
I think Kippy Brown was the only one one.
That's right. Kippy Brown, the WR coach.

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 06:16 PM
And so far his so-called great QB guru skills for the Houston Texans has produced squat (the Carr resigning, not picking a QB at #1 last year, dumping Carr)! You don't have to be football expert to realize that Kubiak has made very poor decisions regarding the QB position.


Your VY homer glasses are clouding your vision. Kubiak would never take Young simply because he's not a WCO QB. Comprehend? Cutler, maybe Leinart, would probably have been his choice, but guess what? Either would have been just as unproven as Schaub and would probably have a much bigger contract right now.

As far as blaming Kubiak for the Carr debacle; That's clearly a chosen perspective and there's no need to debate it. In your mind, you're right.

Dumping Carr should be something you PRAISE Kubiak for, but he's getting blamed for it?! Strange logic...or lack thereof.

My opinion is they could have gone with Sage and been flexible in the future.

You crack me up with this Sage angle. You'd be like flies on poop when Kubiak couldn't make Sage anything other than what he is: a career backup QB.

There is so much QB talent out there. If they really believe Schaub is the guy, then great. But sometimes, people have to get married after they get divorced. Sometimes teams have to get a QB because there is an opening, example Culpepper. Very different situation, but the Texans didn't have to make move on the position, unless you really factor in marketing concerns.

Seriously, bro'...please elaborate on what you consider "so much QB talent out there". Right now it sounds like your blowing smoke, and until you can actually produce a list, you are blowing smoke.

If you start it off with Culpepper, I'm afraid you lose your credibility.

C'mon, man, list away! We're waiting....

Steve Young already had an MVP before Kubes got there.

Steve Young had a Super Bowl MVP before Kubiak arrived?

"I have to say today in the audience I have never been more productive as a player then when Mike Shanahan and when Gary Kubiak were my coach[es]."
~ Steve Young [2005 Pro Football Hall of Fame Enshrinement Ceremony August 7, 2005]

whiskeyrbl
08-07-2007, 06:32 PM
I agree with hollywood on this one. Kubiak is paid to coach and last year, when things weren't going so well, he would constantly say things like: "This one's on us as coaches, this one's on me, this is my fault etc."

That came across as disingenuous at the time and it still struck me the wrong way. If it's your fault Carr wasn't ready to play, why are you here and why is he gone? It seems to me that Kubiak feels he has a long enough leash that he can take the blame for things that aren't his fault so that he will silently get the credit when things go right.

However, this is an important year for Kubiak, in my opinion. He has to show that with the guy that HE selected, his offense can be dominant against defenses like Jacksonville's.

I like the Schaub pick-up. It was a clear communication to me that this franchise has taken off its diapers. If production isn't there, the position will be upgraded. Sure, it was an expensive lesson but why not go with a guy you think can do the job?

And I sure hope that Schaub can do the job.

Maybe he took into consideration that DC would be playing in front of a lynch mob at reliant. Or maybe it was his way of saying he screwed up by keeping him and Sage could'nt do the job. Anyway that is past and he is the coach and Schaub is our QB, so as they say "We either take it or leave it." I for one will take it and give the guy a chance, and really could it be any worse than what we've had?????? I think not.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 06:37 PM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 06:53 PM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

I think his points and mine throughout are getting at the same angle....no one said he was an elite QB, but he hasn't even started a game yet and you are playing Debbie Downer about how there were all these great QBs out there and how Kubes is a failure, etc, etc. I respect an opinion but usually debates have some kind of fact behind them. You've yet to state why Kubes should take credit for Carr or how he could have traded Carr to anyone..it wouldn't even have made sense or happened because of the contract we decided to give him. Secondly, you've failed to address what your beef is in general. If you don't think Kubes was a good hire, say so but saying that after one year is absurd by NFL standards. Espedcially one where a coach is given a QB and inherits a franchise is disarray. On top of that your theory doesn't make any sense. AGAIN, if only a weak minded man would have taken a rigged job..Carr being the QB, then are you saying the second coach of this franchise was doomed for failure and was a pushover to start?To me you are just blaming anyone you can get your hands on for a season that wasn't going to be any good to start.

I'll say this much...if all of your circular arguing is meant to say...."we shouldn't have resigned Dave and VY or another QB should have been drafted"...well, you aren't alone..join the crowd.. but NO coach was going to change that and that is what you are missing. You could replace Kubiak with anyone and your argument would still be the same. The decision was preordained. McNair made the decision and no hire would change that. End of story. BUT we ALL agree he tail is on the line with Schaub.

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 06:54 PM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

HT, I never said Schaub would be an "elite QB". There are only about 4-5 of those in the NFL right now, so far be it from me to ever expect it in a Texans uni. ;)

I just have hope for the guy, and based on what little we've seen and a whole lot of what we've heard, I feel being optimistic is not out of line.

I agree with you that Kubiak's neck is on the line, but that goes without saying no matter who is playing QB. He was billed as a "QB guru", so obviously, our expectations are focussed in that direction. They probably shouldn't have played it up so much before he got hired, because he could only do so much with what he was given (or chose to accept, whatever).

I'm just filing away the first five seasons as water under the bridge and looking ahead as a Texans fan. I'm tired of the scandal and losing ways, so I just choose to hope for the best.

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 07:09 PM
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Then you write...

I think his points and mine throughout are getting at the same angle....no one said he was an elite QB, but he hasn't even started a game yet and you are playing Debbie Downer about how there were all these great QBs out there and how Kubes is a failure, etc, etc. I respect an opinion but usually debates have some kind of fact behind them. You've yet to state why Kubes should take credit for Carr or how he could have traded Carr to anyone..it wouldn't even have made sense or happened because of the contract we decided to give him. Secondly, you've failed to address what your beef is in general. If you don't think Kubes was a good hire, say so but saying that after one year is absurd by NFL standards. Espedcially one where a coach is given a QB and inherits a franchise is disarray. On top of that your theory doesn't make any sense. AGAIN, if only a weak minded man would have taken a rigged job..Carr being the QB, then are you saying the second coach of this franchise was doomed for failure and was a pushover to start?To me you are just blaming anyone you can get your hands on for a season that wasn't going to be any good to start.

I'll say this much...if all of your circular arguing is meant to say...."we shouldn't have resigned Dave and VY or another QB should have been drafted"...well, you aren't alone..join the crowd.. but NO coach was going to change that and that is what you are missing. You could replace Kubiak with anyone and your argument would still be the same. The decision was preordained. McNair made the decision and no hire would change that. End of story. BUT we ALL agree he tail is on the line with Schaub.

You are thinking about this way too much and giving Kubiak a free pass on the Carr decision in year 5.

There is nothing circular about what I am saying.

I don't wanna change your mind about anything, just showing you a different perspective to look at Kubiak.

It's your choice to look at it how every many ways you want to.

I see what you are saying, and I understand what you are saying and maybe agree with it a little bit. But when I boil it down, see the top of this post.

Just showing another perspective to evaluate Kubiak.

Just like when I was told I was being a jerk (negative rep too) because I showed a perspective that we overpaid for Moulds. It looks like my perspective was right on then.

It's not the questions you answer that kill your idea, but the questions you fail to ask. You need many perspectives to make a good decision.

aj.
08-07-2007, 07:22 PM
Haven't read the entire debate but I'll throw out a few chips.

1) Someone was talking about Schaub never being an elite QB. I agree with that. But I don't consider Matt Hasselbeck an elite QB either, and obviously he's 'good enough' in the context of being an integral part of a machine.

2) Kubiak's future is definitley tied to Schaub's success. If Schaub's not getting it done by late '09, there's a very good chance that neither (mainly Schaub because of the bonus) won't see '10.

3) Kubiak didn't have full control over who his QB was going to be in '06. [ an old chip that doesn't need to be debated any more (please) but it's germane to the conversation]

The Pencil Neck
08-07-2007, 07:26 PM
I agree with hollywood on this one. Kubiak is paid to coach and last year, when things weren't going so well, he would constantly say things like: "This one's on us as coaches, this one's on me, this is my fault etc."

That came across as disingenuous at the time and it still struck me the wrong way. If it's your fault Carr wasn't ready to play, why are you here and why is he gone?

Well, what he was really saying was: "This is my fault that I thought I could coach this guy. I saw the mistakes he was making and I thought I could cure him and I was wrong. I mean, come on, how hard is it to throw the ball to someone standing wide open right in front of you? So, I'm going to get rid of him and bring someone else in. Hopefully, they'll be able to see the open guys."

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 07:27 PM
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Carr came out of the gate with an improved accuracy. His first six games led the league in QB rating, whatever stats are worth. Clearly Kubiak's work with Carr was making an impact out of the gate.

Did Kubiak know that the previous regime wouldn't let him read defenses and call audibles?

Did Kubiak know that the previous OC's had to 'dumb down' the playbook for the QB?

Obviously, these are rhetorical questions that we'll never know the answers to, but clearly some improvement was in the works.

But put sprinkles on a dog turd and guess what you have? A prettier dog turd. Maybe Kubiak thought it was a brownie before he worked with DC, who knows. (this paragraph is purely sarcastic in nature, before the lovers decide to attempt to use it against me...)

You can see Kubiak trying to work his magic throughout the season. He tried everything, from gentle lessons to full on hard-nosed benching. I don't think Carr wanted to be here to begin with, and maybe he blew smoke up Kubiak's butt in the 2006 off-season.

But to say that he was completely ineffective is simplifying a complex situation. Carr was up and down all year, but he did look alright at some times, horrible at others. Can a coach teach consistency to a QB that has serious issues? I think Kubiak underestimated Carr's problems and overestimated his own ability to coach Carr out of those issues.

HoustonFrog
08-07-2007, 07:33 PM
My point was:

Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What can you show me that he has done that is successful in the QB department while coaching the Texans? Nothing except for a lot of glowing hope on Schaub.

Then you write...



You are thinking about this way too much and giving Kubiak a free pass on the Carr decision in year 5.

There is nothing circular about what I am saying.

I don't wanna change your mind about anything, just showing you a different perspective to look at Kubiak.

It's your choice to look at it how every many ways you want to.

I see what you are saying, and I understand what you are saying and maybe agree with it a little bit. But when I boil it down, see the top of this post.

Just showing another perspective to evaluate Kubiak.

Just like when I was told I was being a jerk (negative rep too) because I showed a perspective that we overpaid for Moulds. It looks like my perspective was right on then.

It's not the questions you answer that kill your idea, but the questions you fail to ask. You need many perspectives to make a good decision.

First of all I don't neg rep people for opinions that they believe in. Just not my style. I just didn't get your theory on Kubes considering any other coach we brought in was going to be in the same situation. There was no getting around that. Its my opinion that Kubiak did all he could do knowing full well that the experiment would have a chance to fail and then he could bring in his own players. Carr wasn't his guy and any coach we hired had to realize this was the situation. I don't see how you blame a coach for working with damaged goods while only being an NFL head coach for 1 year. You can't fix that which was already doomed for failure. As I stated 2 other times..lipstick on a pig. The team improved slightly and we are at a point where we would have been at in the first place...new QB, etc. Its the perspective of how we got there that differs. Again, Schaub is on Kubes watch and is the real measuring stick.

Specnatz
08-07-2007, 07:34 PM
:specnatz:


http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/signs094.gif

False Start
08-07-2007, 07:34 PM
Thats strange that there is an article on this . The first thing my Cowboy Fan Cousin (hes a second cousin , thank God) said when we traded for Schaub was " Its gonna be Rob Johnson Pt. 2 " . I hope hes wrong . I think he will be though . I hope so , so I can rub it in his face . :texflag:

Texan Asylum
08-07-2007, 07:37 PM
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.
Very very nice indeed!!!

Rep sent your way Lucky!

maddogmrb
08-07-2007, 07:47 PM
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10

the wonger need food
08-07-2007, 08:43 PM
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10


I just now figured out that maddongmrb is in the Troll Patrol with caddy. Or maybe he really is caddy...

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 09:26 PM
But put sprinkles on a dog turd and guess what you have? A prettier dog turd.

Exactly, that's why Carr's stats were meaningless.

The offense in Carr's 5 years with the Texans struggled at:

1. To score more than 15 points in a game
2. Run the 2 minute drill
3. Get a first down with the game on the line
4. Make big plays

Carr was exactly the same under Kubiak in 2006 and Capers in 2004 and 2005, just in a different offense with better stats with Kubiak. The offense as a whole was no better, particularly in the points scored category.

I think Schaub will be just fine for us, but that doesn't mean it's not a gutsy call with some serious uncertainity. Take that into consideration how Kubiak has performed with Carr in his first year, I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling. It concerns me a bit.

But, it's just a perspective.

GO TEXANS!!!!

hollywood_texan
08-07-2007, 09:28 PM
First of all I don't neg rep people for opinions that they believe in. Just not my style.

It was Malloy that gave me the negative rep on my position regarding the trade for Moulds. Who is that guy and is he still around?

Pantherstang84
08-07-2007, 09:34 PM
Schaub has a lot to prove. His intangibles this off season and hype surrounding him got everybody excited. His training camp performance has done nothing to say he really is the next coming of Favre. With an unimproved oline in front of him, he may have a long year and it may be difficult to judge him fairly until the oline is shored up ...... hmmm ........

Bears 20
Texans 10

Who cares about the score of a worthless preseason game? The whole point of the game is to evaluate players.

I want to see if Schaub does indeed make good decisions, if Green still has some left in the tank, will Walter step up. I'll worry about the final score on Sept. 9th.

Let's see what was the preseason record of last year's Super Bowl champs again? Hmmmm.

tsip
08-07-2007, 09:45 PM
I just now figured out that maddongmrb is in the Troll Patrol with caddy. Or maybe he really is caddy...

...so true, Wonger, but these posters won't go away! We thought we'd lose some after Capers, and the rest after Carr but there still hanging around...

I don't care what some posters say about there is no corelation betwen how Schaub is being treated and the way Carr was 'worshipped' for 5 yrs. These posters want Schaub or whoever play qb to fail--plain and simple!...a week did not go by-let alone his first game-and these posters are dogin' Matt..

Double Barrel
08-07-2007, 09:46 PM
Had Schaub been traded to a media darling team, he would have been compared to Brett Favre. A young Falcon QB who wasn't going to start, dealt to a QB hungry team for the equivalent of a 1st round pick. But, Schaub went to Houston. So we have to dig up the worst possible comparison. So typical.

Best post in the thread.

The media has no incentive to say anything positive about the Texans. As far as they're concerned, we're bottom feeders that make bad decisions on selecting talent. Winning is the only thing that will change that perception and attitude.

Schaub has a lot to prove.

...

Bears 20
Texans 10

The whole team has a lot to prove.

Pre-season scores = fool's gold. :victory:

I think Schaub will be just fine for us...

That's not the feeling I get when chatting with you. Sometimes it feels like we're talking you off of a ledge. :shades:

Heath Shuler
08-07-2007, 10:56 PM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

Cutting Carr makes him a QB guru in my opinion, even if it came a year too late.

Htownsportsfan
08-07-2007, 11:16 PM
This is the part that sttod out to me and will make the difference in Schaub V. Johnson

"and eventually alienated the Bills fans with his laid-back California surfer-dude persona."

I think we had some of that at QB in the past. If you are going to be a success in this league at QB you are going to have to make sacrafices and that included time with your family and friends. I dont know who Andre Johnson's comments were aimed at but he said in the past we had players who clearly only played to cash a check! He said there were no players on the team this year that seemed to possess this attitude. Only time will tell but I feel allot better about the leadership skills and work ethic that Schaub has shown in his years as a backup studying the game in the ATL and what he has show here, over what we saw from Carr.

Wolf
08-07-2007, 11:45 PM
I am going with lucky's post... I hopefully see a silver lining in this

The NFL staff has identified plays or events that may have altered the course of history. Each Tuesday and Saturday throughout the offseason, we will be tackling a different scenario and speculate on how things might have gone differently.

Brett Favre recently announced he would return for a 17th season. Although the future Hall of Famer looks poised to retire a Green Bay Packer, he cannot boast of having spent his entire career with the same team.

Brett Favre didn't enjoy a very happy rookie season in Atlanta.

After starting at quarterback for Southern Miss for four years, Favre was selected in the second round, 33rd overall, in the 1991 draft by the Atlanta Falcons. New York Jets general manager Ron Wolf had intended to take Favre, but the Falcons owned the pick before the Jets'.

Amazingly, Atlanta coach Jerry Glanville didn't approve of the drafting of Favre, saying it would take a plane crash for him to put the rookie into the game. Favre attempted only five passes his entire rookie season and promptly was placed on the trading block.

Wolf, who left New York to become the general manager of the Packers after the 1991 season, didn't hesitate, even overruling doctors who diagnosed Favre with the same degenerative hip condition that ended Bo Jackson's career.

Green Bay surrendered a first-round pick for the youngster, who became the starting quarterback in the third game of the 1992 season (Sept. 20, 1992) -- and has started every game since.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2772472

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 12:38 AM
That's not the feeling I get when chatting with you. Sometimes it feels like we're talking you off of a ledge. :shades:

Well then, I did a poor job in communicating my point because I was no where near the ledge.

Just objectively (as I see things) seeing things without the Texans rose glasses.

GP
08-08-2007, 12:59 AM
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Brian Griese and Jake Plummer actually had revitalized careers in Denver, in terms of where they had been and how Kubiak and Shanahan helped each of them.

Nobody gets it right 100% of the time, but Kubiak has a better overall track record than most. Please remember that he inherited a BIG train-wreck-of-a-team from Capers...surely we can agree on that, right?

Hope and Lack of Hope are fighting each other right now. I choose to "hope" that the progress I saw in 2006 will get better each year. But I see a lot of posters who lack hope. A lot of posters have the Capers era notched in their memory, and I just choose to believe that Kubiak knows what he's doing.

Just my two cents...

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 02:18 AM
Certainly an unpopular take in these parts, but nevertheless accurate IMO.
And if Carr's retention was basically McNair call, for the sake of Kubiaks credibiltity we should have got a more definitive disclosure from the owner.
But I do totally support the trade for Schaub. Very expensive and very risky but worth it, really necessary assuming Schaubs our guy.

According to the Chronicle, the primary interview question from the owner was:

"Can we win a Super Bowl with David Carr?"

Now is it just me or shouldn't that have been a more logical, more total-teamcentric question like:

"what changes do we need to make to become a winner? Be honest, no player is sacred."
or
"what's your plan for making my team a winning franchise?"

that tells me everything. You won't get a much more definitive read from an owner regarding his "priorities" than that.

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 02:34 AM
Didn't Kubes get the "QB Guru" by taking claim for John Elway's career?

Brister= Bust
Brian Griese= Bust
Plummer= Had his moments
Carr= Bust

If Kubes knew he had a shot at Golden Boy Quinn, I'm not sure they make the trade for Schaub, unless he thinks his job is on the line already.

Am I the only one on this board that thinks that Quinn is a media-generated, over-rated, "Golden Boy"?

Wolfiegrrl
08-08-2007, 02:51 AM
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak. :texflag:

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team? :cowboy1:

:fans:

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 03:25 AM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

What you are doing is putting Carr's failure to respond to teaching all on the teacher.

Did it ever occur to you that the student has to put in some work to make the effort a success?

That's like saying if you have a good teacher, every student that goes thru his class will come out fully versed on whatever the subject matter is, whether he studies extra or does the required homework or not.

And is it truly realistic to think that FOUR years of bad habits can be erased in one off-season when you're dealing with a student that refuses to put in additional time "away from class".

The following is from an ESPN the Mag article about Carr written by Seth Wickersham in July...


Carr needed help, which seemed to arrive after the 2005 season. Capers was fired, and Houston again had the first overall pick. When owner Bob McNair interviewed potential replacements, the first question he posed wasn't whom the team should draft but how they were going to use Reggie Bush. Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak had all the right answers. Kubiak even told McNair he was sure the Texans could win a Super Bowl with Carr as their quarterback. So McNair picked up Carr's $8 million option. And the quarterback grew hopeful about the prospect of working with John Elway's tutor and Matt Leinart's safety valve.

But everyone knows what happened next: Houston opted for defensive end Mario Williams. "People are always going to ask why." Carr says, "and I'm one of those people."
Still, with Kubiak there was reason to be optimistic. The new coach taught Carr to slow down, to breathe as he read his progressions, to trust. Then a starting lineman went down in September--meaning Carr would have to set up behind a patched pocket for the fifth year in a row--and the QB reverted to his old ways. He knew it but was too beaten down to do anything about it. He had happy feet, rushed his passes, wondered as he threw whether his release was high enough. Carr was, he says, "just trying to survive."
While Carr was publicly applauded for leading the NFL in completion percentage, his coaches privately dismissed it. According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards.
...it got so bad that other players in the huddle could hear coaches yelling at Carr through his helmet earpiece.

Bottom Line:
When the teacher's lessons don't take, is it always the teacher's fault?? Doesn't the student have some responsibility for his own success or failure??

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 03:28 AM
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak. :texflag:

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team? :cowboy1:

:fans:

Man, I would have thought that was total Seahawk country!

oh, and I ain't skeerd neether...
:texflag:

Malloy
08-08-2007, 07:53 AM
It was Malloy that gave me the negative rep on my position regarding the trade for Moulds. Who is that guy and is he still around?

What What ?

nunusguy
08-08-2007, 08:21 AM
According to the Chronicle, the primary interview question from the owner was:

"Can we win a Super Bowl with David Carr?"

Now is it just me or shouldn't that have been a more logical, more total-teamcentric question like:

"what changes do we need to make to become a winner? Be honest, no player is sacred."
or
"what's your plan for making my team a winning franchise?"

that tells me everything. You won't get a much more definitive read from an owner regarding his "priorities" than that.
I dunno, but I just think that McNair owes it to Kubiak and really most important of all to the fan base to clarify the decision-maker(s) on Carrs
retention ? Arguably it was the single biggest personnel decision in the life of this franchise. Everyone has an opinion about that and some are downright smug in their confidance about how it went down, but really all of us here are just speculating because we're on the outside looking inside.
NcNair is no doubt an astute business man but if he can't make similar decisions on matters involving football, I'm not too worried. But if Kubiak is as much at fault as McNair on the Carr call, then I'm worried.
McNairs silence, or lack of clarification on this makes one wonder if his motive is not to cover Kubiaks back and thereby ultimately his own for hiring the guy whos strong-suit was thought to be as a QB guru ?

Texans Horror
08-08-2007, 09:04 AM
I'm guessing you just don't want to even consider another point of view. That is why you don't understand.

Daaaaaaamn...

:survivor:

DBCooper
08-08-2007, 09:11 AM
Y'all can sit here and argue the what ifs all you want. I'm going to point my thoughts and hopes to the glass half-full option. The universe will give you what you ask. I ask everyday that this year's Houston Texans will improve upon last year and make the nay-sayers pause before they speak.

I think it's working. Over the last two weeks, I think I've seen about 20 red, white and blue Texas license plates. Not remarkable for y'all, but I live in Portland, OR. The tides are turning gentlemen... can you feel it? Or are you just plain scared to hope for a great football team?


I'm with you.

Not scared here. lol

HoustonFrog
08-08-2007, 09:23 AM
I dunno, but I just think that McNair owes it to Kubiak and really most important of all to the fan base to clarify the decision-maker(s) on Carrs
retention ? Arguably it was the single biggest personnel decision in the life of this franchise. Everyone has an opinion about that and some are downright smug in their confidance about how it went down, but really all of us here are just speculating because we're on the outside looking inside.
NcNair is no doubt an astute business man but if he can't make similar decisions on matters involving football, I'm not too worried. But if Kubiak is as much at fault as McNair on the Carr call, then I'm worried.
McNairs silence, or lack of clarification on this makes one wonder if his motive is not to cover Kubiaks back and thereby ultimately his own for hiring the guy whos strong-suit was thought to be as a QB guru ?

I agree on the differing opinions but I haven't seen anyone be smug about it. Most that believe that McNair laid it out for any coach are just going off the exact same story that most insiders have told. If it was just John McClain or someone random I would hesitate but everyone from Mort to McClain to every piece I've read claims that it was a prereq for the coach to take the job. I'd think that if someone took the job and was pumping themselves up their answer to "can you win with Carr" would be "heck yes." As someone said above I think Kubes best move yet was to keep throwing Carr into the fire knowing that he wasn't progressing. It allowed him to cut ties and to move forward. That's just my opinion. I don't think McNair is completely going to tell the story but he has said that it wasn't a prereq BUT that he asked all the candidates could they win with Carr(see below)..that is a leading question in my book. What are they going to say?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4404173.html

"First, to the key decisions. I asked him about rumors that last winter he wasn't going to hire a head coach who didn't say glowing things about Carr.

"Not at all," he said. "In fact, I was just reviewing a notebook. I went back and looked at the interviews with the seven coaches. I asked every one of them one question: 'Can David Carr take us to the Super Bowl?' Every one of them said yes. One of them went so far as to say, 'If you make a change, if you draft Vince Young, I'm not coming to your team.'

"In his view, it would take Vince two or three years to get ready. David wasn't perfect at that time, but every one of them thought he had the ability and potential. They all felt they could get that out of him."

real
08-08-2007, 09:34 AM
Well then, I did a poor job in communicating my point because I was no where near the ledge.

Just objectively (as I see things) seeing things without the Texans rose glasses.

What does mean ? Texans rose glasses ?

So because we see positive things from the team and areas where we think they have improved we have rose colored glasses ?

If expecting improvement out of our team this year because of some of the things we have observed and witnessed is drinking the kool-aid, then bottoms up....

It's not like our optimism is unfounded...I think most of us actually have legit reasons to expect an improved team....

Vega
08-08-2007, 09:37 AM
First of all, considering the first team is only going to play a few series this weekend and pre-season games are always a bit vanilla, any judgment this Saturday should be aimed at some individual players challenging for spots (and even that should be taken with a grain of salt). Looking at the score is even worse, since Schaub and all the other newbies may have little to do with it. Otherwise it's like judging a pitcher after his first performance of spring training... just plain silly.

As far as Carr goes, you can't just say "well Carr still sucked last year, so Kubiak must suck," without any consideration for what Kubiak tried to do and what Carr was able to absorb. From all reports, Kubiak really pushed Carr much harder than he was ever pushed with Capers. He tried to force him to go through progressions which Capers didn't do. He put emphasis on his footwork which Capers didn't do (I remember reading somewhere that Carr would get all these things down in practice, but then forget them in a game).

Most reports say that Kubiak was asked if he could win with Carr. No one disputes that Carr has great physical ability, and many a coach have said (and continue to say) that he should be able to become a good QB. But you can't know about his mental ability until you get on the field with him. Kubiak probably saw the physical ability, saw the failures of the previous coaches, and thought, "hey, I know this QB stuff pretty well. I think I can fix it."

Was he right? No. But that's called confidence, and perhaps a bit of cockiness, and it's one of the aspects of a good coach. Another aspect of a good coach is knowing when to move on and not turning this into a science project which will negatively affect the rest of the team. Yeah, Kubiak was wrong, but he at least had the cojones to man up and say he was wrong and that the team should move on.

He should get some credit for that.

The1ApplePie
08-08-2007, 09:48 AM
It was not reported, if they did. Here are the candidates I remember being interviewed:

Kubiak
Jerry Gray
Cam Cameron
Al Saunders
Scott Linehan
Kirk Ferentz (maybe???)
Pat Hill (Carr's college coach)

I think the Texans interviewed a couple of their own assistants as a courtesy. Can't remember which ones.

Thanks for the list.

I figure they would have taken a run at Mangini, since he is a 3-4 guru, but the Jets may have already had him locked up.

gtexan02
08-08-2007, 09:51 AM
Thanks for the list.

I figure they would have taken a run at Mangini, since he is a 3-4 guru, but the Jets may have already had him locked up.

Im pretty sure the Texans were redy to move away from the 3-4. A lot of our D players had been complaining about "playing out of position"

The 4-3 was something media and players were all hoping for the Texans

The1ApplePie
08-08-2007, 09:52 AM
As long as Schaub is more Hasselback and less AJ Feely, I'll be happy.

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 10:38 AM
As far as Carr goes, you can't just say "well Carr still sucked last year, so Kubiak must suck," without any consideration for what Kubiak tried to do and what Carr was able to absorb.

Well said, Vega. This was my point in a nutshell.

If the student doesn't absorb the subject matter, you can't always blame the teacher.

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 11:17 AM
What What ?

It was a long time ago. That's when I was just starting to post and I think you thought I was a troll.

It was on the thread regarding the Moulds trade.

It's no big deal, not trying to call you out.

This situation seems very similar to that thread. I was the lone voice and people were calling me crazy.

As to blaming the student instead of the teacher, Carr was paid the $8 million bonuse after Kubiak took the job. Why did McNair wait? So, the new head coach could approve it and agree.

If Carr was paid the bonus before Kubiak arrived, my opinion would be Kubiak's hands were tied because of a stupid move by the owner. However, that isn't the case. Paying Carr the money was essentially a draft pick of some sort by Kubiak and he is on the hook in my opinion.

NO FREEBES~!

Double Barrel
08-08-2007, 11:28 AM
Well then, I did a poor job in communicating my point because I was no where near the ledge.

Just objectively (as I see things) seeing things without the Texans rose glasses.

"The ledge" comment was just a figure of speech and my weak attempt at adding levity to the discussion.

As far as "Texans rose glasses", I agree, you don't wear any glasses. You seem to prefer blinders. :shades:

As to blaming the student instead of the teacher, Carr was paid the $8 million bonuse after Kubiak took the job. Why did McNair wait? So, the new head coach could approve it and agree.

If Carr was paid the bonus before Kubiak arrived, my opinion would be Kubiak's hands were tied because of a stupid move by the owner. However, that isn't the case. Paying Carr the money was essentially a draft pick of some sort by Kubiak and he is on the hook in my opinion.

Did you see this part?

"Not at all," he said. "In fact, I was just reviewing a notebook. I went back and looked at the interviews with the seven coaches. I asked every one of them one question: 'Can David Carr take us to the Super Bowl?' Every one of them said yes. One of them went so far as to say, 'If you make a change, if you draft Vince Young, I'm not coming to your team.'

"In his view, it would take Vince two or three years to get ready. David wasn't perfect at that time, but every one of them thought he had the ability and potential. They all felt they could get that out of him."

Blame the owner for this nonsense. It's his franchise and he obviouly pre-conditioned employment with the team. If any of the other HC candidates had the job, I guess you'd just be blaming them, too?

But blaming Kubiak for accepting a job with criteria dictated by the owner of the team just seems futile and negative. Trust me, prospective head coaches are in no position to demand changes that are against the owner's wishes. That's just Common Sense 101.

aj.
08-08-2007, 11:47 AM
This has been run into the ground but what the heck...

Why did McNair wait? So the new head coach could rubber stamp the decision that had already been made by Casserly and McNair, and to give the (necessary) appearance that the incoming head coach had something to do with a key personnel decision.

How would it have looked if the lame duck GM and a mostly hands off owner announced the extension two weeks before the new head coach is hired and a few months before said GM is fired? Pretty stupid if you ask me.

Kubiak endorsed Carr heavily in the early months but he soon saw the train wreck with which he had to contend. If giving Carr the bonus was entirely Kubiak's decision, McNair wouldn't have given him near the leeway to cut the strings so quickly (because Kubiak said he could turn him into a winner, etc).

McNair let Kubiak and Smith do it after one season because McNair was a major part of the decision to extend him in the first place. Gary tried. McNair accepted the effort, admitted the mistake, and owned up to his part of the decision by clearing the way for his new head coach and GM to get someone they wanted.

Casserly and McNair would never have said to themselves "let's wait to see what our new head coach says before we do anything on Carr." Casserly wanted Carr to succeed here every way imaginable because what was left of his reputation - here at least - was tied almost completely to his first draft pick. Casserly had McNair's ear and had him convinced that Kubiak could save ocho viejo. That's exactly what McNair wanted to hear for many reasons.

What it boils down to is that people will believe what they want to believe. It's there in spades for me but others will see it differently.

Overalls
08-08-2007, 11:51 AM
It's not like McNair would have been the first owner to feel the need to inject his opinion on the coaches. Al Davis, Dud Adams, Jerry Jones, as examples. Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.

Mr. White
08-08-2007, 11:57 AM
How would it have looked if the lame duck GM and a mostly hands off owner announced the extension two weeks before the new head coach is hired and said GM is fired? Pretty stupid if you ask me.


At what point was Casserly considered a lame duck?

I remember a few people around here alluding to it, but it seems like no one ever really picked up on it with all the pre-draft hype that offseason.

HoustonFrog
08-08-2007, 12:00 PM
It was a long time ago. That's when I was just starting to post and I think you thought I was a troll.

It was on the thread regarding the Moulds trade.

It's no big deal, not trying to call you out.

This situation seems very similar to that thread. I was the lone voice and people were calling me crazy.

As to blaming the student instead of the teacher, Carr was paid the $8 million bonuse after Kubiak took the job. Why did McNair wait? So, the new head coach could approve it and agree.

If Carr was paid the bonus before Kubiak arrived, my opinion would be Kubiak's hands were tied because of a stupid move by the owner. However, that isn't the case. Paying Carr the money was essentially a draft pick of some sort by Kubiak and he is on the hook in my opinion.

NO FREEBES~!

I just put the a quote as to how the whole thing went down earlier and DB reitterated it for me. The owner basically put it to the candidates and asked them if Carr could take them to a SB and they ALL said yes. You can spin that anyway you want, but to me that is an owner with his mind made up and an agenda set. You don't out that question to people unless you have a direction. If that wasn't the case he would have just as easily asked, "what direction do we need to go at the QB position." This just continues to make the point I made 8 pages ago...you would have ragged on any coach because they ALL would have been in the same place.

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 12:08 PM
As to blaming the student instead of the teacher, Carr was paid the $8 million bonuse after Kubiak took the job. Why did McNair wait? So, the new head coach could approve it and agree.

If Carr was paid the bonus before Kubiak arrived, my opinion would be Kubiak's hands were tied because of a stupid move by the owner. However, that isn't the case. Paying Carr the money was essentially a draft pick of some sort by Kubiak and he is on the hook in my opinion.

NO FREEBES~!

Kubiak didn't exactly have to hold a gun to McNair's head to get him to retain Carr's services, now did he? McNair knows he was part & parcel to the "keep Carr" move. He wasn't ready to toss out his "Face of the Franchise".

One thing that was said somewhere in this thread: We may NEVER know all the "whys and wherefores" on who decided what and why?

And another thing is also true, I'm afraid; these "freebies" you refer to aren't yours or mine to hand out.
And that's probably for the best. We fans, as a group, tend to be somewhat emotional at times.

...just at times.
:wild:

aj.
08-08-2007, 12:28 PM
At what point was Casserly considered a lame duck?


He officially resigned the first week of May. But coming off 2-14, there was months of speculation leading up to the official announcement - all the way back to Dec-Jan. I'm sure the announcement wasn't a 'surprise' to McNair.

TK_Gamer
08-08-2007, 12:32 PM
I made a very unpopular post last year about the Carr/Kubiak "He's our guy" sitiutation and I predicted that Carr or Kubiak would be gone this offseason. Ofcourse everyone blasted me and said "you are crazy, they will never do that" etc..In the end I was correct, but I think I have changed my oppinion on Carr since then and take a more unbiased view to what Kubiak did. I think like everyone else Kubiak was forced to accept Carr as the Texans QB as part of accepting the head coach job. I think Kubiak saw early on that Carr's poise and mechanics were not going to get the job done regardless of talent around him or how good the o-line was. I think I agree with that now. He then made a decision to limit the damage , dumb down the offense , and take minimal risks with replacing Carr as the final goal. I think maybe given enough time he could have helped Carr with his mechanics and technique, but there was little chance of correcting his poise given the state of the team and O-line. So overall I think he made the right move. Schaub has good poise and mechanics so we will see what Kubiak can do in the next couple years. He will prove his worth as a head coach one way or the other .

Wolfiegrrl
08-08-2007, 12:44 PM
Man, I would have thought that was total Seahawk country!

oh, and I ain't skeerd neether...
:texflag:

It was fun when the Hawks went to the Superbowl! I was at the NFC Championship game. I can't wait for the Texans to make their trip down Superbowl Lane.

I have every faith that they can do it!:texflag: :splits:

Specnatz
08-08-2007, 12:46 PM
I blame DB because he was in McNairs office holding his http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o195/Specnatz/gun.gif to his head demanding Carr stay. He just does not want anyone to know about it.

Wolfiegrrl
08-08-2007, 12:51 PM
I made a very unpopular post last year about the Carr/Kubiak "He's our guy" sitiutation and I predicted that Carr or Kubiak would be gone this offseason. Ofcourse everyone blasted me and said "you are crazy, they will never do that" etc..In the end I was correct, but I think I have changed my oppinion on Carr since then and take a more unbiased view to what Kubiak did. I think like everyone else Kubiak was forced to accept Carr as the Texans QB as part of accepting the head coach job. I think Kubiak saw early on that Carr's poise and mechanics were not going to get the job done regardless of talent around him or how good the o-line was. I think I agree with that now. He then made a decision to limit the damage , dumb down the offense , and take minimal risks with replacing Carr as the final goal. I think maybe given enough time he could have helped Carr with his mechanics and technique, but there was little chance of correcting his poise given the state of the team and O-line. So overall I think he made the right move. Schaub has good poise and mechanics so we will see what Kubiak can do in the next couple years. He will prove his worth as a head coach one way or the other .


I think the biggest proof of Kubiak's decision making skills came in the last 10 games of the season. He forced the team to run the ball when we didn't have a running game. At the time I was freaked out, but every time I saw those little 5 yard passes by Carr I became more convinced there was something wrong in Carr's thought process. By the time the season was over, you could see that Carr, Kubiak, McNair and the fan base were done. The best thing that could have happened was let Carr go. Just walk away from the past and take the lesson of the situation into the future. Why do you think Schaub's contact is so back loaded and cap friendly? Just in case....

bckey
08-08-2007, 12:53 PM
This has been run into the ground but what the heck...

Why did McNair wait? So the new head coach could rubber stamp the decision that had already been made by Casserly and McNair, and to give the (necessary) appearance that the incoming head coach had something to do with a key personnel decision.

How would it have looked if the lame duck GM and a mostly hands off owner announced the extension two weeks before the new head coach is hired and a few months before said GM is fired? Pretty stupid if you ask me.

Kubiak endorsed Carr heavily in the early months but he soon saw the train wreck with which he had to contend. If giving Carr the bonus was entirely Kubiak's decision, McNair wouldn't have given him near the leeway to cut the strings so quickly (because Kubiak said he could turn him into a winner, etc).

McNair let Kubiak and Smith do it after one season because McNair was a major part of the decision to extend him in the first place. Gary tried. McNair accepted the effort, admitted the mistake, and owned up to his part of the decision by clearing the way for his new head coach and GM to get someone they wanted.

Casserly and McNair would never have said to themselves "let's wait to see what our new head coach says before we do anything on Carr." Casserly wanted Carr to succeed here every way imaginable because what was left of his reputation - here at least - was tied almost completely to his first draft pick. Casserly had McNair's ear and had him convinced that Kubiak could save ocho viejo. That's exactly what McNair wanted to hear for many reasons.

What it boils down to is that people will believe what they want to believe. It's there in spades for me but others will see it differently.


This is exactly how I believe this whole mess went down. Well said AJ.

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 02:00 PM
"The ledge" comment was just a figure of speech and my weak attempt at adding levity to the discussion.

I thought it was funny, just wanted to clarify.


As far as "Texans rose glasses", I agree, you don't wear any glasses. You seem to prefer blinders. :shades:

If I didn't wear blinders, then I would be blinded by reality like you are and not see a thing.



Blame the owner for this nonsense. It's his franchise and he obviouly pre-conditioned employment with the team. If any of the other HC candidates had the job, I guess you'd just be blaming them, too?

But blaming Kubiak for accepting a job with criteria dictated by the owner of the team just seems futile and negative. Trust me, prospective head coaches are in no position to demand changes that are against the owner's wishes. That's just Common Sense 101.

Package deal is a package deal. You have to take the good with the bad. The decision was made on Kubiak's watch. Therefore he is responsible as it relates to a head coach with essentially amounted to no GM because Casserly was a lame duck.

We all make decisions in life and the packages that are associated with it.

It's like buying a house, but you don't want a pool. However, the house you really like has a pool. So, if you still buy the house with the pool, even though you really don't want the pool, you are still responsible for pool.

ObsiWan
08-08-2007, 02:06 PM
I think the biggest proof of Kubiak's decision making skills came in the last 10 games of the season. He forced the team to run the ball when we didn't have a running game. At the time I was freaked out, but every time I saw those little 5 yard passes by Carr I became more convinced there was something wrong in Carr's thought process. By the time the season was over, you could see that Carr, Kubiak, McNair and the fan base were done. The best thing that could have happened was let Carr go. Just walk away from the past and take the lesson of the situation into the future. Why do you think Schaub's contact is so back loaded and cap friendly? Just in case....

Very true. Very true.

Double Barrel
08-08-2007, 02:30 PM
If I didn't wear blinders, then I would be blinded by reality like you are and not see a thing.

Obviously 'reality' is a subjective perspective.

Package deal is a package deal. You have to take the good with the bad. The decision was made on Kubiak's watch. Therefore he is responsible as it relates to a head coach with essentially amounted to no GM because Casserly was a lame duck.

We all make decisions in life and the packages that are associated with it.


So basically you are saying that you'd blame the head coach no matter who got the job?

It's like buying a house, but you don't want a pool. However, the house you really like has a pool. So, if you still buy the house with the pool, even though you really don't want the pool, you are still responsible for pool.

No, it's not like buying a house. It's like accepting a job with prerequisites that you may or may not agree with, but take the job anyway because it's a job you've wanted fora long time. But the owner of the company has all but spelled out the prerequisites were conditions of the job and accepted responsibility when said prerequisites were not successful.

It's all good, man. This season will be our best one so far, and all of this will just be mental exercises in the long run. Just watch and cheer accordingly.

nunusguy
08-08-2007, 02:32 PM
At what point was Casserly considered a lame duck?
I remember a few people around here alluding to it, but it seems like no one ever really picked up on it with all the pre-draft hype that offseason.
When McNair brought Dan Reeves in to look over Casserlys shoulder. That message was clear and loud IMO.
BTW, how wierd was that ? Can't recall an arrangement like that before where an owner brings a third-party in to in effect perform an operational audit in the manner that McNair used Reeves ?

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 02:38 PM
Obviously 'reality' is a subjective perspective.
As I put it, reality is tainted by our perceptions. The key is trying to understand someone's perceptions so you can comprehend his reality.


So basically you are saying that you'd blame the head coach no matter who got the job?

If it happens on your watch, yep.


No, it's not like buying a house. It's like accepting a job with prerequisites that you may or may not agree with, but take the job anyway because it's a job you've wanted fora long time. But the owner of the company has all but spelled out the prerequisites were conditions of the job and accepted responsibility when said prerequisites were not successful.

If you can't handle it, then don't take the job. It's like taking a job, accepting the pay, and then a month later you are upset you aren't paid enough. You agreed to the deal and the responsibilities associated with it.



It's all good, man. This season will be our best one so far, and all of this will just be mental exercises in the long run. Just watch and cheer accordingly.

YEP!

HOU-TEX
08-08-2007, 02:40 PM
When McNair brought Dan Reeves in to look over Casserlys shoulder. That message was clear and loud IMO.
BTW, how wierd was that ? Can't recall an arrangement like that before where an owner brings a third-party in to in effect perform an operational audit in the manner that McNair used Reeves ?

It happens everyday in the business world. The NFL is a business, right?:cool:

Malloy
08-08-2007, 04:08 PM
When McNair brought Dan Reeves in to look over Casserlys shoulder. That message was clear and loud IMO.
BTW, how wierd was that ? Can't recall an arrangement like that before where an owner brings a third-party in to in effect perform an operational audit in the manner that McNair used Reeves ?

Did'nt you get the memo? :)

aj.
08-08-2007, 05:06 PM
When McNair brought Dan Reeves in to look over Casserlys shoulder.

And when they conducted the team interviews of head coaching candidates, Reeves asked the football questions.

And it was about that time when McNair revealed how people in his organization would pull the "well, that's the way we do it in the NFL, see" BS on him. That worked for a year or two or three... I knew Casserly was toast at that point. That was in the Dec.- Jan timeframe.

McNair still listened to some of what CC had to say -- they both obviously agreed on Carr through the whole ordeal.

Texans_Chick
08-08-2007, 06:24 PM
This has been run into the ground but what the heck...

Why did McNair wait? So the new head coach could rubber stamp the decision that had already been made by Casserly and McNair, and to give the (necessary) appearance that the incoming head coach had something to do with a key personnel decision.

How would it have looked if the lame duck GM and a mostly hands off owner announced the extension two weeks before the new head coach is hired and a few months before said GM is fired? Pretty stupid if you ask me.

Kubiak endorsed Carr heavily in the early months but he soon saw the train wreck with which he had to contend. If giving Carr the bonus was entirely Kubiak's decision, McNair wouldn't have given him near the leeway to cut the strings so quickly (because Kubiak said he could turn him into a winner, etc).

McNair let Kubiak and Smith do it after one season because McNair was a major part of the decision to extend him in the first place. Gary tried. McNair accepted the effort, admitted the mistake, and owned up to his part of the decision by clearing the way for his new head coach and GM to get someone they wanted.

Casserly and McNair would never have said to themselves "let's wait to see what our new head coach says before we do anything on Carr." Casserly wanted Carr to succeed here every way imaginable because what was left of his reputation - here at least - was tied almost completely to his first draft pick. Casserly had McNair's ear and had him convinced that Kubiak could save ocho viejo. That's exactly what McNair wanted to hear for many reasons.

What it boils down to is that people will believe what they want to believe. It's there in spades for me but others will see it differently.

Well said.

I think there were also some other factors involved too.

The 2005 tape on Carr was completely unusable because of the Palmer/mostly Pendry garbage offense. That the only times that Carr looked okay was when he was calling his own plays.

If you look to the 2004 season, prior to the Denver game, Carr showed some promise. See e.g.: link to what his stats would have been if his second half of 2004 was like his first half (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout109.html)

So, with the blessing of Dan Reeves who said that Carr wasn't the problem, Kubiak signed off on fixing Carr. From just looking at tape like Kubiak did, you can't tell how Carr is in the locker room, or his ability to take coaching. That's what Casserly should have known, but didn't want to fess up to.

You keep Carr, and this means you can use a draft pick on another position. It also means that you can work with a quarterback starting immediately, and not waiting until the draft or until you can get whatever random QB you can get from free agency. ("Logical, see, you can't make you decisions based on what the fans want, see.")

The assumption by Casserly in February was that keeping Carr meant you got Bush. Then it turned out that Bush probably really didn't want to be the guy that wasn't VY (he kept saying how excited he would be being the first pick, and rarely said anything nice about Houston or the Texans though he would say nice things about the Jets). And all sorts of questions hit the fan about Bush right before the draft. (you can make fun of that, but look at how Vick used to be gold and now isn't). And his agent was a donkey. And Bush wasn't LT, and wasn't a north-south runner, nor shaped like a running back.

Kubiak didn't know how unfixable Carr was at that time, and I think the franchise really underestimated how little good will the fans had left with Carr. That he was going to live with a cloud over his head for being the non-Vince, and that this ugly cloud was going to live over camp, and that the fans would boo Carr for every mistake every time. (I had Eagle fans email me asking why Texans fans were booing Carr in that first game. heh.)

This is old and tired but I think it is true. They kept Carr because they thought they were getting Bush. (McClain says that Casserly wanted to announce the Bush pick really really early).

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 06:47 PM
The 2005 tape on Carr was completely unusable because of the Palmer/mostly Pendry garbage offense. That the only times that Carr looked okay was when he was calling his own plays.


I know I have run this into the ground.

But if Kubiak couldn't review tape of Carr and make a decision, how can I be comfortable Kubiak reviewing tape on Schaub and making the right decision? I am sure Kubiak had to extrapolate from that film to how it applies to his system. It's similar, but not the same. Further, how was Carr any different in 2006 than he was in 2004 or 2005. Not much.

Kubiak is supposed to be a highly trained professional and all I am hearing are excuses.

Not to mention half the people on this message board knew Carr wasn't going to work out anyway. So, should Kubiak consult some people on this message board? Or maybe someone on this message board be the head coach or GM?

Nevertheless, Kubiak still gets a free pass. Maybe you guys are Aggie fans? That would explain so much! Seems like typical behavior of Aggies. We kind of act like them with people running around with 19-10 when it was 5 years ago.

This is a classic example of the elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge.

Wolf
08-08-2007, 06:51 PM
To add to the Casserly thing.. we weren't going to let him go before the draft... to me that would be suicide for the teams plans if Casserly took a job at another NFL team.. Casserly knew how the Texans had a rating on certain players they were targeting in the upcoming draft. Casserly would have had all the inside information on Texans.

Texans_Chick
08-08-2007, 07:42 PM
I know I have run this into the ground.

But if Kubiak couldn't review tape of Carr and make a decision, how can I be comfortable Kubiak reviewing tape on Schaub and making the right decision? I am sure Kubiak had to extrapolate from that film to how it applies to his system. It's similar, but not the same. Further, how was Carr any different in 2006 than he was in 2004 or 2005. Not much.

Kubiak is supposed to be a highly trained professional and all I am hearing are excuses.

Not to mention half the people on this message board knew Carr wasn't going to work out anyway. So, should Kubiak consult some people on this message board? Or maybe someone on this message board be the head coach or GM?

Nevertheless, Kubiak still gets a free pass. Maybe you guys are Aggie fans? That would explain so much! Seems like typical behavior of Aggies. We kind of act like them with people running around with 19-10 when it was 5 years ago.

This is a classic example of the elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge.


I'm the last person on earth to be accused of being an Aggie fan.

Nobody knows whether Schaub will be good or not. Kubiak looked at film, and talked to different people about his skills and stuff, but you never know. I think he decided that Schaub was the best option in 2007 compared to trying to fix Carr or draft someone in 2007 or getting a different free agent.

Kubiak thought he could fix ocho viejo, and there are still people who believe OV can be fixed. I give Kubiak credit for ending that experience.

So basically, all I can tell you is life and football is a crap shoot. Nobody knows if Schaub is the deal, but at least with what I've seen so far, I think Kubiak has the team on the right track. I mean, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to tar and feather Kubiak for not demanding a quarterback get chucked that he had never worked with?

If Kubiak doesn't do a good job, eventually he will get canned. That's what happens.

Fixing a done broke team is harder than adding a few pieces to a team that is already established. Schaub would probably have an easier time going to a more established team, but hopefully he has the talent and the mind to help fix this team.

hollywood_texan
08-08-2007, 07:59 PM
I mean, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to tar and feather Kubiak for not demanding a quarterback get chucked that he had never worked with?


No, I don't wanna tar and feather Kubiak.

But, as you move through life and you figure things out that you made mistakes and things you could improve on, you better be able to own up to them yourself. Even if people give you a built-in excuse.

For Kubiak, it's the QB position while the head coach of the Texans. I think he has done a marginal job at best thus far. However, that could change in the blink of an eye with Schaub showing us hopefuls that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe not in 2007, but good times are coming soon.

aj.
08-08-2007, 08:24 PM
If QB performance improves in the 'blink of an eye' I would venture a guess that it has more to do with the QB (and the RB in this instance) than his coach.

Kubiak would probably say he's done a marginal job. This just in: NFL head coaches are under a lot of scrutiny and job security is fleeting.

I guess I really don't understand/care what the argument is, but I can see it's run it's course when a the counter point deteriorates into playing the 'must be an Aggie' card. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not an Aggie.

rickyb
08-08-2007, 08:36 PM
For Kubiak, it's the QB position while the head coach of the Texans. I think he has done a marginal job at best thus far.

Kubiak has worked with exactly one starting Texans QB not named Matthew Schaub, and his name was David Carr.

David. Carr. So tell me again, who was marginal?

Rhetorical. Please do not answer. Ah, geez, I'm going to hate myself for being so weak as to get sucked into a David Carr thread.

CAN WE PLEASE PUT A BOW ON ALL THINGS CARR? :wild: :gun:

the wonger need food
08-08-2007, 08:38 PM
No, I don't wanna tar and feather Kubiak.

But, as you move through life and you figure things out that you made mistakes and things you could improve on, you better be able to own up to them yourself. Even if people give you a built-in excuse.

For Kubiak, it's the QB position while the head coach of the Texans. I think he has done a marginal job at best thus far. However, that could change in the blink of an eye with Schaub showing us hopefuls that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Maybe not in 2007, but good times are coming soon.


It's real simple. If Kubiak doesn't insist that he can fix Carr he doesn't get the job. There isn't one of us here that hasn't overstated his or her skillset to land a better (higher paying) job.

Marginal job thus far? Look at what the man had to work with and he still got 4 more wins than the previous year. Were you expecting a playoff team after 6 months on the job? Even Bill Walsh couldn't pull that one off.

We gave Dum, Casserole and Stinko 4 years to get things ironed out (well, you guys did... not me so much). The least we can give these guys is 2. If we don't see significant progress across the board in 2007 the Wonger of old will return and I won't be able to delete my PM hatemail fast enough.... I almost kinda miss those days....

Specnatz
08-08-2007, 08:49 PM
I think this is like :deadhorse

Steph you have posted what you have said on more than one occassion, I do not think it can be explained any better or plainer. Great break down. I have to admit I was pretty clueless about the goings on until I read a lot of the info by you, Vinny and a few others. But I did understand looking at game films and making choices based on those.

But I do recall the comments AJ (will try and find them) made about the early part of how Capers and the offense coaches would say how the passing game was to be done regarding reads. Without that info, there is no way to know about all the issues a players has and what it would take to correct or fix certain issues. To me AJ's comments were the biggest WTF I have ever heard regarding a players development.


:texflag:

Texans_Chick
08-08-2007, 09:32 PM
I think this is like :deadhorse

Steph you have posted what you have said on more than one occassion, I do not think it can be explained any better or plainer. Great break down. I have to admit I was pretty clueless about the goings on until I read a lot of the info by you, Vinny and a few others. But I did understand looking at game films and making choices based on those.

But I do recall the comments AJ (will try and find them) made about the early part of how Capers and the offense coaches would say how the passing game was to be done regarding reads. Without that info, there is no way to know about all the issues a players has and what it would take to correct or fix certain issues. To me AJ's comments were the biggest WTF I have ever heard regarding a players development.

:texflag:




Here's the comments you are looking for:

link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4686500.html)

I still find it funny that the Chronicle really didn't highlight that quote because it is on the list of ultimate Texans WTF moments. Along up there with Richard Justice article talking with McNair about how the Phillip Buchanon scouting happened prior to pulling the trigger on that trade.

I think McNair/Casserly/Reeves/Kubiak had the thought that ocho viejo had crap QB coaching and crap schemes to deal with in years 2002-2005. There's a lot of support for that point of view. The problem comes in saying, okay then, if you get good coaching, you can fix that. And then trying to fix that with the cloud of the 2006 draft hanging over your head.

OV detractors say that he was a nicklehead who could never be coached up and isn't NFL material. OV semi-supporters say he once had promise but got too messed up to be fixed. OV supporters still say that he should have had Bush in 2006, and is still fixable if given the right situation, oline, coaching, planets in alignment whatever. (Certainly, if Bush had even a pretty good year as a Texan, fans would have been better tempered about having to watch more of th OV experiment).

I say I don't know. All athletes have their good and bad points. I will say that there are few athletes who are so talented that they can excel no matter what their situation, coaching, teammates, scheme etc. Once decisions have been made, you never can know what the alternative history would have been.

Personally, I have to say the best thing about the QB change is when bad crap happens, we don't have to read the exact same retreaded stuff.

Texans_Chick
08-08-2007, 09:59 PM
so....




...



david carr bad?

Okay, this made me laugh.

move along here, nothing to see.

http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/703/703_image_01.jpg

Double Barrel
08-08-2007, 11:57 PM
Great posts, TC & aj. :thumbup

Our history is what it is. We've had a noob owner with a billion dollar company and absolutely no experience in a very competitive business. He's made mistakes, but taken steps to correct them and hopefully not repeat again. Blaming the people he hires is fine if you can't see a bigger picture, but the fact of the matter is that the buck stops at the top.

sbalderrama
08-09-2007, 02:10 AM
I often wonder how much say Kubiak really had in the Carr decision. It seems like "everyone" knows what went on, even though "everyone" has differring opinions from "Kubiak totally ok'd carr" to "Kubiak just told McNair what he wanted to hear to get the job". Not sure we'll ever know the real truth, but it is true that in many cases the head coach doesn't deal with personnel decisions as much as the GM and owner. A brand new rookie Head Coach is not going to be given as much power as say Bill Parcells.

ObsiWan
08-09-2007, 05:15 AM
I know I have run this into the ground.

But if Kubiak couldn't review tape of Carr and make a decision, how can I be comfortable Kubiak reviewing tape on Schaub and making the right decision? I am sure Kubiak had to extrapolate from that film to how it applies to his system. It's similar, but not the same. Further, how was Carr any different in 2006 than he was in 2004 or 2005. Not much.

Kubiak is supposed to be a highly trained professional and all I am hearing are excuses.

Not to mention half the people on this message board knew Carr wasn't going to work out anyway. So, should Kubiak consult some people on this message board? Or maybe someone on this message board be the head coach or GM?

Nevertheless, Kubiak still gets a free pass. Maybe you guys are Aggie fans? That would explain so much! Seems like typical behavior of Aggies. We kind of act like them with people running around with 19-10 when it was 5 years ago.

This is a classic example of the elephant in the room that no one wants to acknowledge.

You're ignoring a vital piece of information. With Carr, all Kubiak had was film. Before he signed Schaub, he met him to see what kind of person he was. He consulted with people he trusted to find out what type of leader he was (or wasn't). He gathered much more information before pulling the trigger on Schaub than was available to him when making the decison to keep Carr. Texans Chick explained that in her posts. Yet you KEEP ignoring that in your critique.

Just what IS your agenda? Do you see Kubiak as the reason Carr is gone and are just looking for an excuse to vent. Are you mad that Vince/Reggie/Matt/Jay isn't here? I can come up with no other reason for your "Kubiak sucks" viewpoint.

Because its not remotely logical to expect a truly bad 2-14 team (that's NEVER had a winning season) to turn around in one year. Its also completely illogical to fire the coach before he has a chance to install his system and find "his guys".

And that Aggie fan statement is the worse thing I've seen you post. I'll chalk it up to exasperation. I know you can come up with better logic than that.

Malloy
08-09-2007, 06:12 AM
We gave Dum, Casserole and Stinko 4 years to get things ironed out

hhh, funny. Especially because Dum actually means dumb or stupid in danish :)

hollywood_texan
08-09-2007, 11:50 AM
You're ignoring a vital piece of information. With Carr, all Kubiak had was film. Before he signed Schaub, he met him to see what kind of person he was. He consulted with people he trusted to find out what type of leader he was (or wasn't). He gathered much more information before pulling the trigger on Schaub than was available to him when making the decison to keep Carr. Texans Chick explained that in her posts. Yet you KEEP ignoring that in your critique.

Could it be changing the way he did things earlier is admitting some mistake?

I am not ignoring anything, I am merely providing a different perspective.

You guys seem to be advocating some group hug or something. I know I am streching things here, but that is what you guys are doing with my comments, see below.

Just what IS your agenda? Do you see Kubiak as the reason Carr is gone and are just looking for an excuse to vent. Are you mad that Vince/Reggie/Matt/Jay isn't here? I can come up with no other reason for your "Kubiak sucks" viewpoint.
I have no agenda, if someone screws something up, including myself, I call it like I see it.

My point isn't to advocate VY or some other QB.

Regardless of the draft last year, it was mistake to keep Carr! That mistake just carried over into the draft decision making process.


Because its not remotely logical to expect a truly bad 2-14 team (that's NEVER had a winning season) to turn around in one year. Its also completely illogical to fire the coach before he has a chance to install his system and find "his guys".

You reading WAY TOO MUCH into my comments. I never said that Kubiak should be fired. I never said the Texans should have had a winning season last year.

Look, Kubiak made some big mistakes in the way he handled the Carr situation. Probably on reflection, he would probably not do a lot things he did with Carr, like carrying the water for McNair and keeping Carr so easily.

And that Aggie fan statement is the worse thing I've seen you post. I'll chalk it up to exasperation. I know you can come up with better logic than that.
I was born and raised in Austin, Texas. I have family ties to the Texas Longhorn football program. Point is, I have heard a lot jokes about Aggies over the years, my comments seemed appropriate in that manner.

Again, you reading way too much into my comments.


I think we can all agree that the $8 million roster bonuse for Carr was a mistake last year.

You guys appear to give a Kubiak a free pass on that decision. I don't give him a free pass and hold him responsbile.

One of the best ways to get fired or perform marginal in your job, is to allow an overbearing manager cram down decisions that makes your job difficult.

I think we can all agree the handling of Carr from the roster bonus forward has made things more difficult for Kubiak. He shares reponsbility in that issue.

real
08-09-2007, 01:17 PM
You guys appear to give a Kubiak a free pass on that decision. I don't give him a free pass and hold him responsbile.


Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...

Every coach that was interviewed said they can fix David...SO in essence we would have gotten someone in here with the mindset that they were going to fix David regardless of who was hired...Would you have rather gotten a coach that would have stuck with David after last year or a head coach that was bold enough to move on ? Unless you think David is a stud and Kubiak just did a poor coaching job, I don't understand your argument...

Any coach we would have gotten would have kept David...What aren't you understanding about that ?



Yes, he misjudged something....You called him out on that...I guess you want props? :um: Kudos maybe? :confused:

We're all humans and we all make mistakes...What real live human being really expected Kubiak or any other human walking this earth to be perfect ? Maybe you just had unrealistic expectations....

He is not the QB coach, he is the head coach...

Since he's come aboard he has improved the team as a whole...The guys seem to have a better mindset, we have more depth, and we have some good looking young players...Not to mention he has hired, what seems to be, a very competent staff...Quit your bishin'....

:texflag:

HOU-TEX
08-09-2007, 01:24 PM
Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...

Every coach that was interviewed said they can fix David...SO in essence we would have gotten someone in here with the mindset that they were going to fix David regardless of who was hired...

Now are you saying that Kubiak should have been able to fix him if he was a QB "guru" ? Or that he isn't a QB "guru" because he said he could fix David, and he didn't ?

Yes, he misjudged something....You called him out on that...I guess you want props? :um: Kudos maybe? :confused:

We're all humans and we all make mistakes...Who really expects Kubiak or any other human walking this earth to be perfect ? Maybe you just had unrealistic expectations....

He is not the QB coach, he is the head coach...

Since he's come aboard he has improved the team as a whole...The guys seem to have a better mindset, we have more depth, and we have some good looking young players...Not to mention he has hired, what seems to be, a very competent staff...Quit your bishin'....

:texflag:

IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.

hollywood_texan
08-09-2007, 01:30 PM
IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.

Kubiak had a choice in accepting the job.

Using sales/poker skills would have been very helpful in changing McNair's mind on Carr in early 2006.

Therefore, Kubiak is responsible in my opinion.

real
08-09-2007, 01:30 PM
IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.

Either Kubiak was going to be here regardless or Carr was going to be here regardless...

It's either one of the two, and you can't have both...

Why?

Because if Another Coach would have gotten hired, since all of them siad they could fix Carr, that meant Carr was going to be here regardless...follow me?

But if Kubiak was the only coach who said that Carr was damaged goods, and was still hired, that means he was going to be here regardless of whether he yayed, or nayed Dave...So in essence that question wouldn't have mattered and Kubiak was going to be the coach regardless of what his decision on David was.....

I find it very hard to believe that Kubiak was going to be here regardless....So with the help of Mathmatics that just leaves David as the common denominator...

real
08-09-2007, 01:33 PM
Kubiak had a choice in accepting the job.

Using sales/poker skills would have been very helpful in changing McNair's mind on Carr in early 2006.

Therefore, Kubiak is responsible in my opinion.

Wha ?

So would you rather have had a coach who believed they could fix Carr, but couldn't, that wasn't Kubiak :um: ??? This has gotta just be an Aggie thing...

All the candidates said they could fix him....do you get that ??

Unless you think that Carr would have been salvaged by another coach I don't get what you're arguing...

hollywood_texan
08-09-2007, 01:40 PM
Wha ?

So would you rather have had a coach who believed they could fix Carr, but couldn't that wasn't Kubiak :um: ??? This has gotta just be an Aggie thing...

All the candidates said they could fix him....do you get that ??

Unless you think that Carr would have been salvaged by another coach I don't get what you're arguing...

I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.

You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.

hadaad
08-09-2007, 01:42 PM
Wha ?

So would you rather have had a coach who believed they could fix Carr, but couldn't, that wasn't Kubiak :um: ??? This has gotta just be an Aggie thing...

All the candidates said they could fix him....do you get that ??

Unless you think that Carr would have been salvaged by another coach I don't get what you're arguing...

What he's saying is that Carr is a mark against Kubiak no matter how you look at it. I agree with Hollywood on this one, though I don't think I go as far as he does.

Regardless of what the situation was, Kubiak did NOT have to coach Carr last year. To that end, Kubiak gets a black mark for coaching a season with a quarterback he did not fix. If Kubiak is an amazing quarterback guru, he should have either realized Carr was bust or fixed Carr. Neither of these things happened so the QB Guru title is tainted somewhat.

I don't think he's saying he would rather we have a different coach. I don't think he's saying that Schaub is going to fall on his face. What I wrote above is what I think Hollywood is saying and I agree with it.

Texan_Bill
08-09-2007, 01:47 PM
I don't know if I would call it free pass, as much as I would call it chalking it up to a first year head coach, with a lame duck GM in place - making a mistake...

The real test, is will Kubes have learned from that in the future and of course Rick Smith will be more involved with those type of decisions.

HOU-TEX
08-09-2007, 01:47 PM
IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.

Either Kubiak was going to be here regardless or Carr was going to be here regardless...

It's either one of the two, and you can't have both...

Why?

Because if Another Coach would have gotten hired, since all of them siad they could fix Carr, that meant Carr was going to be here regardless...follow me?

But if Kubiak was the only coach who said that Carr was damaged goods, and was still hired, that means he was going to be here regardless of whether he yayed, or nayed Dave...So in essence that question wouldn't have mattered and Kubiak was going to be the coach regardless of what his decision on David was.....

I find it very hard to believe that Kubiak was going to be here regardless....So with the help of Mathmatics that just leaves David as the common denominator...

You basically reiterated my point.

Like I said, I think Carr would've been here no matter who was hired to be the coach.

McNair wanted to give Carr another chance under different tutelage. It didn't work out like he'd planned. Kubiak made it a point by taking the ball out of Carr's hands, in turn proving to McNair that Carr was a basket case.:cool:

real
08-09-2007, 01:53 PM
I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.

You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.


Whadaya mean ? "fixed it earlier" ?

How was he going to fix it earlier ? And what do you mean by earlier ?

Before he was hired? As soon as he was hired? During the season ?

Why don't you understand that EVERY candidate interviewed said they could fix David ? Not just Kubiak...

Sure he said he could, and assuming he really thought he could, we can say he made a mistake...Ok...everyone makes mistakes...but look at his overall body of work...


Honestly I think Kubiak wasn't overly impressed with David, but liked the tangibles that he could see...you know...his measurables....I'm pretty sure Kubiak knew there was a disticnt possibility that David couldn't cut it, but he told the owner he could...He maybe even really thought he could have...or atleast felt strongly about it....

But I think the whole "David is our QB" line we were fed after every dissapointing performance was just Kubiak's way of not giving David the benefit of hiding on the bench...Even after Sage came in and noticeably out played David, he kept marching him back onto the field...It was like Kubiak was saying to everyone, this is David, I'm a good coach, we have a decent system, he should be able to somewhat produce...

Well he didn't...

I honestly believe Kubes made up his mind on David after the first Titans game...The Raider game would have been the point that He would have been benched had Sage not been hurt...

He completely took away David's throwing privelages though....

:texflag:

real
08-09-2007, 01:58 PM
If Kubiak is an amazing quarterback guru, he should have either realized Carr was bust or fixed Carr. Neither of these things happened so the QB Guru title is tainted somewhat.

lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook

real
08-09-2007, 01:58 PM
You basically reiterated my point.

Like I said, I think Carr would've been here no matter who was hired to be the coach.

McNair wanted to give Carr another chance under different tutelage. It didn't work out like he'd planned. Kubiak made it a point by taking the ball out of Carr's hands, in turn proving to McNair that Carr was a basket case.:cool:

Sorry...

That was just a long way of agreeing with you...

hollywood_texan
08-09-2007, 02:04 PM
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook

Mark this down then, if Schaub doesn't live up to expectations, the place they are going to start on Kubiak's QB failures as the Texans HC, will be Carr and how that carried over to Schaub.

You guys are sweeping everything under the rug regarding Carr and Kubiak's responsbility in that matter.

He has a huge hand in the matter.

Oh, thanks hadaad!

hadaad
08-09-2007, 02:05 PM
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook

Like I said, I don't think I go quite as far as HT does but look at the interviews after the games last year. "That's on us as coaches. We have to get him ready to play." He says it himself.

HOU-TEX
08-09-2007, 02:08 PM
lol...

:ok:


If you guys say so...

I still think Kubiak is just as good as working with QB's...I really don't see the his title being tainted...

but...oooooook

I'm right there with you on this matter. It's blasphemous blaming Kubiak for the Carr debacle.

Now I'm sure there were several times on gameday that he might have made a mistake or two. Which I'm sure he's learned from.:texflag:

Sorry...

That was just a long way of agreeing with you...

That's cool. It just made me reread your post a few times wondering where the disagreement was. lol:)

HOU-TEX
08-09-2007, 02:10 PM
Like I said, I don't think I go quite as far as HT does but look at the interviews after the games last year. "That's on us as coaches. We have to get him ready to play." He says it himself.

What did you want him to say? "Aw Carr sucks! He'll never learn".

I think we all need to just agree to disagree on this subject. lol :cool:

Double Barrel
08-09-2007, 02:17 PM
Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...

There is no spoon.

This has gotta just be an Aggie thing...

There is a spoon!

He has a huge hand in the matter.


"huge hand"? Now you're back out on the ledge! :gun:

If Carr was still here in Kubiak's second season, I'd tend to agree with you. Otherwise, I think you are just failing to grasp front office power structure under noob owner.

Give props to Kubiak for trying to fix DC and letting him go when it could not be done.

I bet you take your broken car (no pun intended) to a mechanic and blame him that it's broken...

But yeah, like HOU-TEX mentioned, it's time to agree to disagree. :victory:

hadaad
08-09-2007, 02:19 PM
What did you want him to say? "Aw Carr sucks! He'll never learn".

I think we all need to just agree to disagree on this subject. lol :cool:

Fair enough.

I don't think Kubiak should be fired or anything. And I think he's got way more positives than negatives in his history as far as QBs but, like HT, I hope he learns from last season.

As far as what Kubiak should have said, people around here have praised him for his no-nonsense approach to media relations but all I got last year was that he didn't adequately prepare his quarterback to play football. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe he should have said "We need to get better play out of the quarterback position".

tsip
08-09-2007, 02:21 PM
Responsible for what ? Carr sucking, or for giving Carr the bonus ? Neither are his fault...



I don't understand the logic...

Every coach that was interviewed said they can fix David...SO in essence we would have gotten someone in here with the mindset that they were going to fix David regardless of who was hired...Would you have rather gotten a coach that would have stuck with David after last year or a head coach that was bold enough to move on ? Unless you think David is a stud and Kubiak just did a poor coaching job, I don't understand your argument...

Any coach we would have gotten would have kept David...What aren't you understanding about that ?



Yes, he misjudged something....You called him out on that...I guess you want props? :um: Kudos maybe? :confused:

We're all humans and we all make mistakes...What real live human being really expected Kubiak or any other human walking this earth to be perfect ? Maybe you just had unrealistic expectations....

He is not the QB coach, he is the head coach...

Since he's come aboard he has improved the team as a whole...The guys seem to have a better mindset, we have more depth, and we have some good looking young players...Not to mention he has hired, what seems to be, a very competent staff...Quit your bishin'....

:texflag:

...excellent post-my thoughts exactly!! It's simple. How many times do you get offered the 'brass ring' in life? And, most of the time--if not always-there is 'baggage' that goes with it, usually marginal employee(s) or a request of some nature from the 'powers' to be...sometimes it all works out sometimes not.

I learned from watching others before me that the 'high' road was the best way to go, because the bottom line is to make it work And, when it does, nobody remembers the 'BS' at the beginning. If it doesn't, try something else, but--if you say no--you may never get the chance again...

People like HT need to try the 'list' method-1 list for all Gary's bad, 1 list for don't know yet, and 1 for the good. We all have our own opinions, and I'm going to list a few good--

1) team accountability for all
2) support your team mates/the organiztion/and the fans
3) upgraded where possible w/new personnel and getting Texan players to
elevate their play
4) stressed competition
5) flexible (unlike Capers) in his decision making--i,e. some players are
excused for 1 practice in 2 a-days

With Carr, Kubiak had one of those decisions we've all faced where--will we wonder years from now, what if? In this case, he gave David a chance...that was smart and it's over with now- Carr is someone elses headache...

In my management career, I was taught there are 3 types of decisions--right/wrong/ and none. Right-that's great. Wrong?-can be corrected...but NONE is the worse...leaves everyone hanging/no direction/leads to failure.


Bottom line-in my opinion- Kubiak had to make 2 decisions about DC. First, he kept him and taught him the best he knew how and, second, he realzed that Carr wasn't going to get better, so he let him go.

IMO, we will be a better team because of these decisions and all the other changes that Gary has made...HT you've got a defeatist attitude in that all decisions must be the right ones from the get go...don't think that exist anywhere...

Pantherstang84
08-09-2007, 02:24 PM
I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.

You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.

Hey.

If blaming the YKW fiasco completely on Kubiak helps you sleep better at night way out there on the Left Coast, so be it.

Just don't expect those of us who were closer to the situation to buy into it.

Whatever floats your boat.

CloakNNNdagger
08-09-2007, 03:17 PM
It's truly interesting to see how Carr haunted us while he was here............and to now see how he still continues to be all-consuming of our energy...........haunting us to this very day

HoustonFrog
08-09-2007, 03:26 PM
I never said that I would have rather have had a QB coach that believed he could salvage Carr as the head coach. If you really think about what I am saying, I am advocating something very opposite of that.

I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.
You guys are reading way too much into my comments.

Kubiak made big mistakes in the handling the Carr situation, therefore he is responsible and hopefully learns from it and doesn't make the same mistakes again.

I now think 5 other people have made the same point that I made yesterday to you and it never seems to register and I think the point will never end. Xtru tried to spell it out bit by bit. I understand your stance but you don't seem to really fathom that Carr would be here no matter what scenario you try to draw up. CARR would have been here last year no matter the coach. It was the owners decision. There was no convinceing him otherwise with Charlie sitting there still and Reeves around. Carr was already tainted. So if it wasn't Kubes, it would be some other schmuck that, as you put it yesterday, was the yes man for the owner. Not every good coach can fix every player if they don't have the skills or the want to change. Kubes could do nothing "earlier" but not take the job. What he did was the right thing though. He rode out a bad thing and then made his own decisions. It isn't a black spot because he got to the point where we needed to be by the next year. A young, up and coming QB and Carr moved along.

Vinny
08-09-2007, 03:38 PM
As far as what Kubiak should have said, people around here have praised him for his no-nonsense approach to media relations but all I got last year was that he didn't adequately prepare his quarterback to play football. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything at all. Maybe he should have said "We need to get better play out of the quarterback position".I don't get the sense that Carr wasn't adequately prepared...I get the sense that Carr was what he was and it was just obvious that making a move to get rid of him was the only way to go forward after half a season. It doesn't matter how much you coach up Gifford Neilson....he is still Gifford Neilson and isn't going to be Tom Brady no matter how much better coaching he gets.

Texanfan4ever
08-09-2007, 04:04 PM
Very well put Vinny! That about says it all. Carr was unfixable here, didn't matter who was coach.

hollywood_texan
08-09-2007, 05:20 PM
Actually, what I have said over and over, is that I am presenting a certain perspective. I am not trying to change your mind, just showing you a different way to look at this situation.

I never said Kubiak should be fired, we should have had a winning season in 2006, and on and on.

I am merely evaluating Kubiak in a certain area. It's like a QB that has had a perfect season all the way to the last play of the year in the Super Bowl. On that last play, he makes a mistake and throws an interception to lose the game. In other words, it's his fault. Therefore, you grade the mistake regardless of the year he has had. That doesn't mean he gets cut from the team or anything else. It's just an evaluation of that specific situation, it's that simple.

You 5 guys (as houston frog put's it) have your perspective, and I have mine.

Neither is really right or wrong. You guys seem to either think I am wrong or crazy. Well, I have news for you, I was treated this exact same way when dicussing in a Moulds thread a year ago that we overpaid for that guy.

I understand the perspective of giving Kubiak a free pass on Carr for the many reasons stated over and over.

However, in life, in my opinion, you gotta take the bad with the good. Sometimes not making a decision is making a decision. Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.

Those are my last words in this thread. I have said more than enough already, and thanks for listening. Hopefully I explained things so you understand where I am coming from. If I didn't, it's my fault. See my consistency here?

real
08-09-2007, 05:31 PM
Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.


Eureka!

Finally got it out of ya'.....



Not sure how or why you think Kubiak is responsible for the bonus...I just don't get that aspect of your argument...

If you wanna give him credit for the release, then more power to him :texflag:

Wolf
08-09-2007, 06:18 PM
I am talking about Kubiak specifically and his errors with Carr, which includes his responsibility. If he really believed Carr was not worth fixing, he should have taken care of that sooner, rather than later.


maybe some answered this and maybe I am not understand some of HT's comments..

but how could Kubiak fix him sooner? It was not known what Carr could or couldn't due under Kubiak's system(which was NOT in place yet). Better yet all Kubiak could do is go by gamefilm on Carr in a different offensive system. It was a variable that hadn't been figured out yet and couldn't get figured out until the season started.

I would understand this logic if we still had Carr this season and was still going with him at starting QB.

Wolf
08-09-2007, 06:22 PM
btw if sources are correct.. Kubiak signed on jan 26th and Carr signed extension on feb 10th.... within two weeks of each other

kubiak signs
http://www.nfl.com/teams/coaching/HOU
extension
http://www.blogcharm.com/sportsworld/5675/David+Carr+Signs+Contract+Extension.html

HoustonFrog
08-09-2007, 06:30 PM
Actually, what I have said over and over, is that I am presenting a certain perspective. I am not trying to change your mind, just showing you a different way to look at this situation.

I never said Kubiak should be fired, we should have had a winning season in 2006, and on and on.

I am merely evaluating Kubiak in a certain area. It's like a QB that has had a perfect season all the way to the last play of the year in the Super Bowl. On that last play, he makes a mistake and throws an interception to lose the game. In other words, it's his fault. Therefore, you grade the mistake regardless of the year he has had. That doesn't mean he gets cut from the team or anything else. It's just an evaluation of that specific situation, it's that simple.

You 5 guys (as houston frog put's it) have your perspective, and I have mine.

Neither is really right or wrong. You guys seem to either think I am wrong or crazy. Well, I have news for you, I was treated this exact same way when dicussing in a Moulds thread a year ago that we overpaid for that guy.

I understand the perspective of giving Kubiak a free pass on Carr for the many reasons stated over and over.

However, in life, in my opinion, you gotta take the bad with the good. Sometimes not making a decision is making a decision. Therefore, I believe Kubiak is responsible for the $8 million signing bonuse and his release less than one year later.

Those are my last words in this thread. I have said more than enough already, and thanks for listening. Hopefully I explained things so you understand where I am coming from. If I didn't, it's my fault. See my consistency here?

I never said there was right or wrong. I just happen to think your reasoning is misplaced since much of your argument revolved around this notion that Carr could have been gone before last season due to a coach pushing an agenda or some outside force that allows teams to just get rid of people "earlier.". That is really where it all begins. Since Kubiak doesn't write the checks I will say your wrong. But I enjoy the talks and thank you for the good football banter. :shades:

DBCooper
08-09-2007, 07:06 PM
IMHO, Kubiak didn't have a choice in the matter. Carr was going to be here no matter who the coach was.

I think you are exactly right.

This one goes as a reminder to McNair not to be a Daniel Snyder or a Jerry Jones.

Kubiak, because he is a quarterback guy, found that the best move was to continue without Carr and found his own guy.

Schaub will be on Kubiak, but keeping Carr is on McNair.

Lucky
08-09-2007, 07:14 PM
Schaub will be on Kubiak, but keeping Carr is on McNair.
Right. Since McNair won't fire himself, let's move the conversation back to Matt Schaub. And those chumps from SI. :bat:

aj.
08-09-2007, 07:47 PM
Schaub will be on Kubiak, but keeping Carr is on McNair.

Pretty much sums up eight pages or whatever it is.

Aren't you supposed to be roaming remote areas of the Cascades with a sack of money or something?

DBCooper
08-09-2007, 07:52 PM
Pretty much sums up eight pages or whatever it is.

Aren't you supposed to be roaming remote areas of the Cascades with a sack of money or something?

lol, it wasn't that much money.

Second Honeymoon
08-09-2007, 08:18 PM
Carr is on McNair. He has even admitted as much himself. Drafting Mario is on McNair vis a vis the decision to resign Carr (thus passing on VY) and passing on Bush vis a vis the pre-draft signability issue and the off field reports of NCAA improprieties/dishonesty by the Bush camp.

Schaub is on Kubiak and Smith. That much is for sure. Schaub and Kube deserve this year and the beginning of the 2nd year to make things work or the seat will be getting hot for both. It's the nature of the game. 5 year windows were unheard of in the NFL before McNair bought the Texans. Hopefully they become a thing of the past now that the Carr debacle is over. I will remain an optimist until I see otherwise. He hasn't even taken a snap yet for us.

GO TEXANS!

ObsiWan
08-10-2007, 05:13 PM
DB, all your points are not going make Schaub an elite QB. Schaub will have to do that on his own on the field.

Time will tell if Kubiak/Smith made the right decision.

Thus far, which is my point, Kubiak hasn't done much to impress me in the QB department while head coaching the Texans.

you DO realize that you made two contractory statements in that post, right?

in your first statement you say its the player's job to prove himself on the field.

in your last sentence you say its Kubiak's fault for not making Carr a good QB.
Which is it: The player's responsibility or the coach's????
You need to be consistent.
Pick one.

jdog
08-10-2007, 05:57 PM
Not sure how or why you think Kubiak is responsible for the bonus...I just don't get that aspect of your argument...


http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2310

Gary Kubiakhttp://assets.houstontexans.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2310#) has made his share of difficult decisions in his coaching career. Today’s decision wasn’t one of them.

Owner Bob McNair, general manager Charley Casserly and Kubiak announced during a press conference Friday (transcript (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2309)) that the team has exercised its option to extend quarterback David Carr (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/player.asp?player_id=12)’s contract for three more years.

“This was an easy decision for me, and I think everybody has known that from the start,” said Kubiak, who has studied film on Carr since the fourth-year pro starred at Fresno State. “He’s a fine football player and he possesses everything you’re looking for in a quarterback to be successful in this league.”

Kubiak says it was an easy "decision". Although later in the article we hear...the rest of the story.

McNair always has maintained that Carr is the quarterback who he believes can lead the Texans to the Super Bowl. He and Casserly have worked diligently to discover the formula that will help Carr be successful, and they seem pleased with what they’ve come up with.

“We’ve made a commitment to (David) and he’s made a commitment to us,” McNair said. “We’re going to work hard to give him the resources and protection he needs to perform, and he’s going to do everything he can in performing his job.

“We’re delighted to announce (his extension), and also delighted that we’ve got Gary Kubiak here as our head coach and as the person who is really going to have a tremendous influence on David.”

It seems that McNair and Casserly were trying to salvage Carr, and Kubiak was part of the "formula".

Did Kubiak really make a decision or was the decision made for him?

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2309

Bob McNair:

"As you know early on this year when we were talking about what we were doing in the organization, we indicated that the first thing that we had to do was select our coach, which we’re delighted to have Gary Kubiakhttp://assets.houstontexans.com/images/relatedicon.gif (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=2309#) with us, and he’d be putting his staff together and after that he’d be evaluating our team.

“The quarterback is a key position and they’ve been evaluating that, and they have come to the same conclusion that we have and that many others have: David Carr is the person who can take us to the Super Bowl."

It sounds like Kubiak really did make a decision.

Gary Kubiak:

"This is an easy decision for me and I think everybody has known that from the start. I knew a lot about David before I even came to Houston. I studied him coming out of college, I’ve studied him throughout his career and I’ve continued to study him over these past few weeks. I’ve come to the same conclusion that I really had all along: I know he’s a fine football player and he possesses everything you’re looking for in a quarterback to be successful in this league. Along with that, he has the desire to be as good as he can be and to lead this football team, and that’s all you could really ask of a young man.

“I’ve been so impressed with him in my short time here as I’ve visited with him. But as I look at him over the past four years with this organization, the thing that really has impressed me is how this kid has continued to battle for this franchise. He’s been through four years now. He’s been through some good times, some really tough times, but he’s been there every week for everybody, battling and trying to do the best job that he can do. Now it’s time for me to help everything around him get better. All you have to do is look around this league. It doesn’t matter who the quarterback is, if you don’t surround him with good people and you don’t put him in a good system, a good environment, there are not many of them that are going to be successful. And that’s my job; to provide that system, to provide that environment and to put in the work necessary to make him successful and the Texans successful."

Am I saying that Kubiak is a bad coach? No. I think Kubiak came in here knowing that he had to work with Carr. He asked for Carr to work, and maybe Carr didn't. Otherwise, I have to agree that Kubiak does not seem to be a great evaluator based on that last quote from him, and in that respect I would agree with Hollywood. I think it's a bit ugly that he was clearly hired for the purpose of improving Carr, and now Carr is gone after one year. Therefore, I agree with Hollywood that Kubiak has little wiggle room left on Schaub.

ObsiWan
08-10-2007, 06:30 PM
Could it be changing the way he did things earlier is admitting some mistake?
You could say it like that. Or you could say that he learned from an unsuccessful experience. How one decides to phrase an observation says as much about the person as about what the person saw.

I am not ignoring anything, I am merely providing a different perspective.
Fair enough. ...albeit an accusatory perspective.

You guys seem to be advocating some group hug or something. I know I am streching things here, but that is what you guys are doing with my comments, see below.

I have no agenda, if someone screws something up, including myself, I call it like I see it.
I would hope we all would. I know I try too. I suppose when you say, "Kubiak is using up his chances due to David Carr's failure" I must disagree. It was David Carr that ran out of chances. And as such, it is he who is gone.

My point isn't to advocate VY or some other QB.

Regardless of the draft last year, it was mistake to keep Carr! That mistake just carried over into the draft decision making process.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. First, there's no way the QB of a 2-14 team should have been given an extension. That has never made sense to me. UNLESS, the owner foresaw that with Vince/Matt/Jay available in the upcoming draft the hew & cry of the masses to usurp young David would ring mightily throughout the TexansLand. And he thought, "well, if I give Prince David an extension, the masses won't possibly expect me to draft a replacement" ...but that's conspiracy theorist :cool:talk...

back to topic

Second, even given the impending arrival of Kubiak, "World Renowned QB Sensei" there's no way an extension should have been granted until the end of the season - (a) just to see how well the lessons took and (b) to serve as additional incentive for Carr to improve.

So yes, signing Carr to that extension was at best, premature and as it turned out a colossal mistake.

And I guess that's the crux of this discussion.

I think we can all agree that the $8 million roster bonuse for Carr was a mistake last year.

You guys appear to give a Kubiak a free pass on that decision. I don't give him a free pass and hold him responsbile.

I think we can all agree the handling of Carr from the roster bonus forward has made things more difficult for Kubiak. He shares reponsbility in that issue.

That much is true. I said as much above.

You wish to place the blame for all of last seasons screwups at the feet of Kubiak.

I believe that you're placing the blame one step too low.

Let me put it this way, if I were Bob McNair, knowing that I painted the man into a corner when I hired him, there's no way I could, in good conscience, blame Kubiak for giving Carr that extension so soon or not for drafting smarter.

Obviously, you're the kind of person who can.

Double Barrel
08-10-2007, 06:46 PM
People underestimate the power of the owner and overestimate the power of head coaches.

Case in point: look no further than the Cowboys. Legendary HC Bill Parcells did not want Terrell Owens, but guess what? Jerry Jones overrode his head coach. TO is still a Cowboy and the Tuna is gone.

Now does someone really believe that Kubiak had the power and leverage to TELL and DEMAND to Mr. McNair how he's going to run his own franchise?

Yeah, I can hear it now: "Thank you for the offer, Mr. McNair. It is a position that I feel prepared for and one that I have worked towards my entire career. However, before I accept...."

yeah, riiiiiiiiiiiight... :ok:

I guess he could have told him to take a leap, and that would be the only thing that got him off of the hook with some folks. Not like it matters. He's still here and Carr is gone, with the owner publicly accepting responsibility.

It's history, water under the bridge, and pointless to hold it against Kubiak at this point.

Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub. Period.

jdog
08-10-2007, 07:08 PM
Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub.



Actually, he will also be judged by his first year with Carr. The difference between the first year and this year is there are no excuses. Period.

HoustonFrog
08-10-2007, 09:03 PM
I guess he could have told him to take a leap, and that would be the only thing that got him off of the hook with some folks. Not like it matters. He's still here and Carr is gone, with the owner publicly accepting responsibility.

It's history, water under the bridge, and pointless to hold it against Kubiak at this point.

Gary Kubiak will not be judged by his first year with David Carr. He will be judged by what happens with Matt Schaub. Period.

Thanks again for talking sense. Most people out there consider Smith and Kubiak's first real decision to be Schaub and it is on that move that their jobs will be judged. I have faith!This is the crossroads.