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View Full Version : Vick pleads not guilty and other urban legends.


WaywardTexanFan
07-26-2007, 04:30 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/26/vick.dogfighting/index.html

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 04:34 PM
In un-related news, beachfront property is available for sale in Arizona....

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 04:43 PM
610 just reported during the news flash that "Michael Vick is person of interest in a dog fighting ring in Arizona"......

brakos82
07-26-2007, 04:45 PM
Vick is ****ed. :bat:

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 04:46 PM
Yeah, i saw that & all of the other crap surrounding this case & i must say that i'm going to change my tune right now on whether i think he'll ever play again in the NFL. I still think that he could beat these charges & any new ones that they possibly plan to bring against him for his freedom, but Goodell has steadily been backing himself into a corner since the suspension of pacman came down.

Plus, PETA & all the emotion they're bringing to the case will sort of force him to do something in excess of the pacman suspension which will be to ban him from the league.

I'm not going to say that i would completely agree with it, but at least Goodell would be consistent & if it serves as a "shot heard round the world" in this case the league, then i guess i can't complain.

Hell, at least he's letting the facts lead him instead of geting caught up in the wave of judgement that many people have already began to surf.

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 04:48 PM
He can beat the case...

Signed,

That .01%






j/k

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 04:49 PM
He can beat the case...

Signed,

That .01%






j/k

Lol, I'll put it like this, if OJ & those cops in the rodney king ordeal can beat their cases, he can as well.

On a side note i wonder what the plea deal was that he rejected.

Double Barrel
07-26-2007, 04:53 PM
OJ wasn't indicted by the federal government. Vick doesn't have the luxury of the inept LAPD trying to convict him.

WaywardTexanFan
07-26-2007, 04:57 PM
Vick to face no-nonsense judge in "rocket docket" court

When Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick appears in federal court next week, he'll stand before a no-nonsense judge unimpressed by Vick's celebrity and in a court known nationwide for its speedy handling of cases.

quote ... "You don't get any special perks because of who you are, and you don't get punished because you aren't somebody who is a public figure."

The U.S. District Court in Richmond has come to be renowned as the "rocket docket" for getting its cases handled quickly. Vick faces charges of sponsoring a brutal dog fighting ring.

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 05:01 PM
OJ was found responsible in Civil Court for the deaths of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman....

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 05:17 PM
OJ wasn't indicted by the federal government. Vick doesn't have the luxury of the inept LAPD trying to convict him.

Who cares, whether it's fed time or state time you still have to do time.

& yeah, he only has the squeaky clean gub'ment...

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 05:17 PM
OJ was found responsible in Civil Court for the deaths of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman....

Nice consolation prize since we couldn't get him on what we want...

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 05:18 PM
Who cares, whether it's fed time or state time you still have to do time.

I think DB was comparing conviction rates of State v. Federal cases..

Yankee_In_TX
07-26-2007, 05:21 PM
OJ was found responsible in Civil Court for the deaths of Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman....

standard of proof is lower in a civil case

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 05:23 PM
Vick to face no-nonsense judge in "rocket docket" court

When Atlanta Falcons quarterback Michael Vick appears in federal court next week, he'll stand before a no-nonsense judge unimpressed by Vick's celebrity and in a court known nationwide for its speedy handling of cases.

quote ... "You don't get any special perks because of who you are, and you don't get punished because you aren't somebody who is a public figure."

The U.S. District Court in Richmond has come to be renowned as the "rocket docket" for getting its cases handled quickly. Vick faces charges of sponsoring a brutal dog fighting ring.

doesn't really matter now considering the right to a speedy trial was rejected by the defense & they were handed an extra 6 plus weeks until his actual court date.
Many were expecting it to at least begin in Oct.

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 05:35 PM
If this thing goes to trial and the evidence is similar or worse than the indictment, it won't matter if Vick is found not guilty with regard to Vick playing in the NFL again.

Too much pressure will be brought to bear and as mentioned earlier, and the burden of proof for a criminal case is higher than a civil case. With that said, I suspect the the burden of proof from a civil case to a lifetime ban by
Goodell will be even lower.

If Vick wants to play in the NFL again, he needs to plea to probation, become a permanent spokesman against this type of activity for PETA or whatever, and just come clean. The details of this trial will be too much regardless if he is found not guilty in a criminal case.

This case is going to be very ugly in details and people care more about dogs than they do people.

GuerillaBlack
07-26-2007, 05:35 PM
Vick pleads not guilty...what were you expecting him to do?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0726/nfl_a_vick1_412.jpg

ESPN Article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950226

RICHMOND, Va. -- Michael Vick pleaded not guilty Thursday to federal dogfighting charges and was released without bond until a Nov. 26 trial.

The Atlanta Falcons quarterback and three others entered their pleas in U.S. District Court to conspiracy charges involving competitive dogfighting, procuring and training pit bulls for fighting and conducting the enterprise across state lines. Federal prosecutors say the operation -- known as Bad Newz Kennels -- was run on Vick's property in Surry County..

"Today, you all either heard or saw Michael take his first step toward proving his innocence," Vick's attorney, Billy Martin, said. "We intend to prove Mike's innocence at trial."

The trial date was set for Nov. 26 at 9:30 a.m. Vick waived his right to a speedy trial.

"I take these charges very seriously and look forward to clearing my good name," Vick said in a statement read outside court by Martin.

'I respectfully ask all of you to hold your judgment until all of the facts are shown. Above all, I would like to say to my mom I'm sorry for what she has had to go through in this most trying of times. It has caused pain to my family and I apologize to my family. I also want to apologize to my Falcon teammates for not being with them at the beginning of spring training," he said.

ccdude730
07-26-2007, 05:37 PM
Who cares, whether it's fed time or state time you still have to do time.

big differences between state and federal time, but the idea is still the same - you get locked up

real
07-26-2007, 05:40 PM
What is the FED's conviction rate against famous people with money ?

Sure they have a high conviction rate against those who can't afford high power attorneys...

But what are they looking like against powerful teams of Lawyers ?

real
07-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Originally I wanted Vick to get convicted because I think he's guilty.

Now, I no longer care.

TigerV1
07-26-2007, 05:43 PM
OJ wasn't indicted by the federal government. Vick doesn't have the luxury of the inept LAPD trying to convict him.

Amen to that on both statements.

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 05:49 PM
standard of proof is lower in a civil case

Problem was LA County botched the Criminal... Therefore, we have to 'settle' for the Civil case... But yes you are correct.

How much of the money has Orenthal paid so far???

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 05:50 PM
What is the FED's conviction rate against famous people with money ?

Sure they have a high conviction rate against those who can't afford high power attorneys...

But what are they looking like against powerful teams of attorneys ?

I beleive I read somewhere that their conviciton rate was close to 97%......... Period.

nunusguy
07-26-2007, 05:53 PM
Where's all the lefties on this Board who are always running around shouting things about peoples civil liberties and how they should have their day in court if charged. This is one of the most incredible examples of a "rush to judgement" I've see lately. And I'm very much a conservative on a lot of things, and I might add I also happen to be white.
Oh, and for those of you that think the Feds don't make mistakes, that assume those charges against Vick are 100 % for sure, that the Feds are infallible, what a laughter !
I seem to recall a pretty large mistake the Feds made awhile back about their reasoning for being concerned about this country in the MidEast because it was, they said, a threat to our national security. They said that country was a threat to our nation because it had something called "WMD" ? So the Feds invaded that country. How's that looking now ? Huh ?
You bet your sweet butt the Feds make mistakes. Sometimes damn big ones.

Errant Hothy
07-26-2007, 05:54 PM
Vick pleads not guilty...what were you expecting him to do?

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0726/nfl_a_vick1_412.jpg

ESPN Article: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2950226


Exactly, it's the best move the defense could make at the time. He had nothing to gain be pleading quilty.

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 05:55 PM
If this thing goes to trial and the evidence is similar or worse than the indictment, it won't matter if Vick is found not guilty with regard to Vick playing in the NFL again.

Too much pressure will be brought to bear and as mentioned earlier, and the burden of proof for a criminal case is higher than a civil case. With that said, I suspect the the burden of proof from a civil case to a lifetime ban by
Goodell will be even lower.

If Vick wants to play in the NFL again, he needs to plea to probation, become a permanent spokesman against this type of activity for PETA or whatever, and just come clean. The details of this trial will be too much regardless if he is found not guilty in a criminal case.

This case is going to be very ugly in details and people care more about dogs than they do people.

It almost seems that way & it saddens me in regards to the bolded. Vick is fried either way in the court of public opinion & i now think his fate is sealed as far as the NFL goes b/c of it...... That is unless that good ol' american short term memory kicks in. Elle's right, we should just sit back & let this die until the actual trial begins b/c either way goodell's got his guy (highly qualified guy i might add) on it.

Errant Hothy
07-26-2007, 05:55 PM
Where's all the lefties on this Board who are always running around shouting things about peoples civil liberties and how they should have their day in court if charged. This is one of the most incredible examples of a "rush to judgement" I've see lately. And I'm very much a conservative on a lot of things, and I might add I also happen to be white.
Oh, and for those of you that think the Feds don't make mistakes, that assume those charges against Vick are 100 % for sure, that the Feds are infallible, what a laughter !
I seem to recall a pretty large mistake the Feds made awhile back about their reasoning for being concerned about this country in the MidEast because it was, they said, a threat to our national security. They said that country was a threat to our nation because it had something called "WMD" ? So the Feds invaded that country. How's that looking now ? Huh ?
You bet your sweet butt the Feds make mistakes. Sometimes damn big ones.

Deep breath....let it out...feel better?

Federal goverment and Federal court are not as realted as you seem to think.

real
07-26-2007, 05:56 PM
I beleive I read somewhere that their conviciton rate was close to 97%......... Period.

That's understood...

What I'm asking is what is their conviction rate against those of high status ?

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 05:57 PM
Where's all the lefties on this Board who are always running around shouting things about peoples civil liberties and how they should have their day in court if charged.

They ALL jumped ship once Al Sharpton spoke.

real
07-26-2007, 05:58 PM
[/b]

It almost seems that way & it saddens me in regards to the bolded. Vick is fried either way in the court of public opinion & i now think his fate is sealed as far as the NFL goes b/c of it...... That is unless that ol' american short term memory kicks in.....

Vick isn't fried in the court of public opinion...

There are just as many people who could care less about dogs as there are people who care adamantly about them...

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 06:02 PM
That's understood...

What I'm asking is what is their conviction rate against those of high status ?

97% (maybe it was 95%)...... Period.

I'm pretty sure that they dont separate the Kenneth Lays from the Daniel Joseph Maldonado's of the world...

Texan_Bill
07-26-2007, 06:09 PM
Arizona Sheriff Calls Vick 'Person Of Interest'

"Person of Interest" (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13759991/detail.html)

disaacks3
07-26-2007, 06:11 PM
Oh, and for those of you that think the Feds don't make mistakes, that assume those charges against Vick are 100 % for sure, that the Feds are infallible, what a laughter !
I seem to recall a pretty large mistake the Feds made awhile back about their reasoning for being concerned about this country in the MidEast because it was, they said, a threat to our national security. They said that country was a threat to our nation because it had something called "WMD" ? So the Feds invaded that country. How's that looking now ? Huh ?
You bet your sweet butt the Feds make mistakes. Sometimes damn big ones.
1. You're comparing the CIA / FBI data on terrorism & Saddam Hussein to Federal prosecutorial records? Hello Mr Straw-man, nice to see you again. Remember, even though the ATF f'ed up the arrest of D. Koresh, the Prosecutors still got their convictions.

2. There are FACTS here that you're overlooking - The fact that the dogs were fighting at all, or being bred on Vick's property doesn't even seem to be in question by EITHER side. That's a mighty big coincidence to overcome in court. This isn't Donald Trump with MANY different homes he splits time in.

3. Even if the Feds blow this one, the State still gets it's chance on similar charges...with all the discovery of the Gov't at it's disposal. Feds got to bring charges for INTERstate transport of these animals for the purposes of fighting. The State of Virginia is next if the Feds muck it up...and with less burden (as they don't have to show the transport).

Don't let the Nifongs of the world make you bet against the odds on this one. Give Vick his due process, but remember that the Feds are pretty thorough.

Mr teX
07-26-2007, 06:13 PM
Vick isn't fried in the court of public opinion...

There are just as many people who could care less about dogs as there are people who care adamantly about them...

Maybe not to the extent i'm thinking, but enough to where owners will stay away from him in an attempt to avoid a PR disaster & enough to where goodell might feel he needs to go above & beyond to save "the shield".

Also good post above Elle...

disaacks3
07-26-2007, 06:17 PM
That's understood...

What I'm asking is what is their conviction rate against those of high status ? That may be too difficult to define, though I'm interested to know as well. I'd also be interested in the breakdown by class of offense. (ie. Murder is harder to prove than Manslaughter, etc.)

real
07-26-2007, 06:55 PM
Ever work for a criminal attorney? Your lawyer will wave you off when you say you are not guilty. They will say..."I have the indictment, I have CERTAIN questions and you say nothing else. Understood?" You: "uh....ok." Lawyer: "I have ceratin elements to deal with here. I need you to shut up." You: "Uh....ok." Been there, done that.

Vick has a plan. Something is going down. Or he would have made a bargin.

$5 bucks says I'm right.

Law sucks in this area. I hate it. Should have gone for corporate take overs.:cool:


I agree with ya here Elle....

I just can't see Vick hiring attorneys that didn't know what they were doing...

Of course Federal prosecutors are probably some badd azzes themselves, but I just can't see a plea of not guilty if they weren't fairly confident in getting the verdict to swing their way...

Maybe the case isn't as air tight as everyone seems to think...

real
07-26-2007, 06:58 PM
Maybe not to the extent i'm thinking, but enough to where owners will stay away from him in an attempt to avoid a PR disaster & enough to where goodell might feel he needs to go above & beyond to save "the shield".

Also good post above Elle...

If Vick is exonerated I think he will be fine as far as his NFL career goes.

If he makes it through this I would safely assume Vick wouldn't even throw a toothpick out his Car window for fear of being caught littering...

But we shall see...We just have to let it all unfold...

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 07:57 PM
Ever work for a criminal attorney? Your lawyer will wave you off when you say you are not guilty. They will say..."I have the indictment, I have CERTAIN questions and you say nothing else. Understood?" You: "uh....ok." Lawyer: "I have ceratin elements to deal with here. I need you to shut up." You: "Uh....ok." Been there, done that.

Vick has a plan. Something is going down. Or he would have made a bargin.

$5 bucks says I'm right.

Law sucks in this area. I hate it. Should have gone for corporate take overs.:cool:

Elle, the Feds could have their case so locked solid and are so sure of a conviction, they won't accept a plea aggreement or any type of deal. (Keep in mind, this is a great case to get some national exposure and many of these prosecutors turn into politicians later.)

Then Vick's choice is to give up and take his sentencing from the judge, or take some big swings and hope he gets lucky some how.

Besides, if Vick had a good plan, he wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 08:02 PM
I just can't see Vick hiring attorneys that didn't know what they were doing...


Vick's attorneys are probably going to get paid regardless of outcome.

Also, the more the facts are against Vick, the less people will hold those attorneys responsbile for not getting a not guilty verdict. They can only work with what they got...

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 08:45 PM
What is the FED's conviction rate against famous people with money ?

Sure they have a high conviction rate against those who can't afford high power attorneys...

But what are they looking like against powerful teams of Lawyers ?

The court in which Vick is being tried the feds have a 99% conviction rate. That particular district is known for having it's ducks in a row when it indicts someone. You can bet they have a good deal of solid evidence on Vick.

real
07-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Vick's attorneys are probably going to get paid regardless of outcome.

Also, the more the facts are against Vick, the less people will hold those attorneys responsbile for not getting a not guilty verdict. They can only work with what they got...




So how do you think their conversation went ?

Attorney: Hey Mike, the case is air tight against you....I suggest a plea bargain...

Mike: Screw that

Attorney: Ok...it's your money...




This isn't a fantasy world....

This is real life....


Think about what you're saying.....

High powered attorneys don't go to court representing high profile people to lose...C'mon, be serious....

If they didn't think Vick had a good chance to beat the charges they would have advised him so....And if My high dollar attorney is telling me that it's best to plea bargain I'd be a fool not to listen...

real
07-26-2007, 08:51 PM
The court in which Vick is being tried the feds have a 99% conviction rate. That particular district is known for having it's ducks in a row when it indicts someone. You can bet they have a good deal of solid evidence on Vick.


Ok...

Again...How many high profile cases like this have been handled in this 'particular district'...

You can't look at this case as if it were a regular case, because it's not....Trying to apply the logic of past cases doesn't work in this instance...

real
07-26-2007, 08:53 PM
(Keep in mind, this is a great case to get some national exposure and many of these prosecutors turn into politicians later.)


My point exactly...


Convict Mike....gain exposure....

How do you know that someone isn't so hungry for a conviction against Mike that they aren't being overly aggressive while pursuing a verdict of guilty ?

You can't look at this case like every other case that has passed through their court...

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 09:00 PM
Vick isn't fried in the court of public opinion...

There are just as many people who could care less about dogs as there are people who care adamantly about them...

I think you're wrong on that, even most people who don't care about dogs aren't inhuman enough to want to see them beaten, shot and or electocuted for failure, not to mention that they also wouldn't want to see them chew each other up in a three hour fight. A large majority of people in this country own pets, either dogs or cats or others and don't like to see animals abused. The people who would not be appalled and disgusted by what Vick "allegedly" did are few and far between. I have not spoken to one person yet who was not sickened by what is in that indictment.

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 09:03 PM
High power cuircut, high power lawyers, bottom line...High power level playing field. If these guys didn't have a chance of saving his ass and career, they would have folded their hand.

Translation: I know something you don't know and you have some Slaining to do, Lucy. See...the number one rule about being any kind of lawyer is that you never ask a question that you do not already have an answer for. THE answer for. Ergo, my position is Vick's guys have something to really trip this clock or Vick has them convinced he can trip the clock. These are federal lawyers. It's pretty hard to blow smoke up thier panties.:cool:

I know at least one of Vick's lawyers former clients who is doing time in a federal Pen, Former Atlanta mayor Bill Campbell. Not only was he a high profile case like Vick he himself was a lawyer and a lot more savvy than Vick.

real
07-26-2007, 09:04 PM
I think you're wrong on that, even most people who don't care about dogs aren't inhuman enough to want to see them beaten, shot and or electocuted for failure, not to mention that they also wouldn't want to see them chew each other up in a three hour fight. A large majority of people in this country own pets, either dogs or cats or others and don't like to see animals abused. The people who would not be appalled and disgusted by what Vick "allegedly" did are few and far between. I have not spoken to one person yet who was not sickened by what is in that indictment.


1) Vick did that sh!T...I know he did

2) It was nasty and disgusting

3) Now that I think about it, you're right...Most of the people who aren't disgusted by (and even aprove ) what he did aren't the one's buying tickets to NFL games...

So in that essence yeah, you all are right...

Honoring Earl 34
07-26-2007, 09:08 PM
If anything , Vick cost himself millions of dollars through endorsements . I also believe he'll get cut .

Whether it's dogfighting , drug trafficking , sexual assualt , or man slaughter ... it's a felony offense and I do not believe atheletes are above the law . I also believe that someone squealed on Mikey and he's toast .

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 09:09 PM
So how do you think their conversation went ?

Attorney: Hey Mike, the case is air tight against you....I suggest a plea bargain...

Mike: Screw that

Attorney: Ok...it's your money...




This isn't a fantasy world....

This is real life....


Think about what you're saying.....

High powered attorneys don't go to court representing high profile people to lose...C'mon, be serious....

If they didn't think Vick had a good chance to beat the charges they would have advised him so....And if My high dollar attorney is telling me that it's best to plea bargain I'd be a fool not to listen...

One problem with a plea deal for Vick. Has anyone considered that a plea deal involves admitting guilt which would almost certainly result in at least a year suspension from the NFL (or more) and a complete loss of all income from endorsements for life. A guilty plea may also result in him being released from the Falcons immediately. The way I see it Vick has no choice but to see the trial through and hope his lawyers can slick him out of it.

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 09:30 PM
RZ...you know I don't like to fight issues with you. In this case, as is what is the law of the land, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Even if the charge is a purse snatch.

Whatever pet owners think is irrelevant. It's the law of the land. It's a non issue unless they are on the jury.

Voir Dire will last forever because this does involve dogs until the judge reigns in everyone and reminds them that tax evasion is a higher priority here.

I'm sorry to say, but the animal issue will fall behind the income issue and failure to pay taxes. Maybe that's why Vick went to Not Guilty. He could have stashed gambling inside his absurd NFL monies.

Personally, I think the 2 other i d i o t s involved will be nailed with tax fraud, the animal issue will evaporate and Vick is gone like smoke. Maybe he never plays in the NFL again. But, he certainly won't go quietly into the night.

"Innocent until proven guilty" only matters inside the courtroom. It has absolutely no standing in corporate america or in reality. If you kill someone you are a murderer the instant that persons heart stops beating, however the court must assume your innocence until proven guilty in a court of law. But that's just the court, the NFL, the Falcons and the fans are free to think what they want and they are free to judge Michael guilty until he proves his innocence.

If a Day care worker is indicted of sexual abuse of children do you seriously think the day care center has to consider him innocent till proven guilty in a court of law and let him continue to work there? Of course in that case the judge would probably order him to stay away from children till his case was ajudicated but you get the idea. The fans are under no obligation to adhere to the innocent till proven guilty and most of them are pet owners so it does matter what they think.

Vicks problems may be just beginning, the State of Va. may still indict in September and now the rumblings coming out of Arizona don't sound good at all. If he is involved in something in yet another state he is definately finished.

BattleRedToro
07-26-2007, 09:33 PM
RZ...you know I don't like to fight issues with you. In this case, as is what is the law of the land, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Even if the charge is a purse snatch.

Whatever pet owners think is irrelevant. It's the law of the land. It's a non issue unless they are on the jury.

Voir Dire will last forever because this does involve dogs until the judge reigns in everyone and reminds them that tax evasion is a higher priority here.

I'm sorry to say, but the animal issue will fall behind the income issue and failure to pay taxes. Maybe that's why Vick went to Not Guilty. He could have stashed gambling inside his absurd NFL monies.

Personally, I think the 2 other i d i o t s involved will be nailed with tax fraud, the animal issue will evaporate and Vick is gone like smoke. Maybe he never plays in the NFL again. But, he certainly won't go quietly into the night.

Elle, I believe RedZone was refering to public opinion not the trial itself. Public opinion matters as much as the verdict as far as whether or not the NFL will take action against him.

Joe Texan
07-26-2007, 09:37 PM
There are just as many people who could care less about dogs as there are people who care adamantly about them...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh my sides are aching.

I say we throw Mikey into the pit against some of the pit bulls he tortured.

BattleRedToro
07-26-2007, 09:53 PM
No sh!t? Seemed to me that a murderer was a murderer.

Didn't read past that part and won't. Dog fighting sucks, but ask Ray Lewis about stabbing someone.

A world of difference. A world.

At least I'd hope so if I turned up dead.

The Ray Lewis incident happened prior to the new player conduct policy of the NFL.

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 10:14 PM
No sh!t? Seemed to me that a murderer was a murderer.

Didn't read past that part and won't. Dog fighting sucks, but ask Ray Lewis about stabbing someone.

A world of difference. A world.

At least I'd hope so if I turned up dead.

Not sure what you're acting so pissed off about with me Elle. The only thing I was responding to was your statement that;

RZ...you know I don't like to fight issues with you. In this case, as is what is the law of the land, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Even if the charge is a purse snatch.

Whatever pet owners think is irrelevant. It's the law of the land. It's a non issue unless they are on the jury.

I'm only saying that what pet owners think is not irrelavant if they are Falcon fans or NFL fans. Innocent till proven guilty doesn't apply to the fans or the NFL either one. Because of this issue the Falcons may freely cut Vick or the NFL can suspend or expell him without any court action and fans can choose to not watch any game Vick played in.

I just don't like to see people confuse the court of public opinion with the criminal justice court. Each have seperate rules.

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 10:19 PM
Oh. My bad. If an NFL player killed someone prior to Godell, it''s all good. No harm done to that HUMAN that is DEAD by STABBING.

Damn. forget the humans. We need to think about Pittbulls!!!

String up Vick by the highest tree!

Give me a freaking break. Any and all sarcasm that can be placed here, please do so.

So is it your stance that because Ray Lewis skated that Vick should skate too? No one is comparing human death with a dogs death, each case has to stand on its own merit. Just because the system failed in the OJ case and the Ray Lewis case doesn't mean it has to or will in the Vick case.

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 10:26 PM
So how do you think their conversation went ?

Attorney: Hey Mike, the case is air tight against you....I suggest a plea bargain...

Mike: Screw that

Attorney: Ok...it's your money...




This isn't a fantasy world....

This is real life....


Think about what you're saying.....

High powered attorneys don't go to court representing high profile people to lose...C'mon, be serious....

If they didn't think Vick had a good chance to beat the charges they would have advised him so....And if My high dollar attorney is telling me that it's best to plea bargain I'd be a fool not to listen...

Do you really think attorney's only take cases they think they have a good chance to win?

I don't think so if the money is right.

Look, an attorney doesn't have to win every case, just the cases he should win. Something tells me this case may not be winnable from a defense perspective.

My other point is, the Feds may LOVE there case so much, they are positive they will get a conviction. Therefore, no plea deal is available.

Also, the facts of this case may be so bad against Vick, that regardless of a not guilty verdict, Vick will never play a down again in the NFL.

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 10:33 PM
Oh. My bad. If an NFL player killed someone prior to Godell, it''s all good. No harm done to that HUMAN that is DEAD by STABBING.

Damn. forget the humans. We need to think about Pittbulls!!!

String up Vick by the highest tree!

Give me a freaking break. Any and all sarcasm that can be placed here, please do so.

The Ray Lewis incident was a one-time deal during one night.

The Vick issue is a pattern of behavior over several years.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

I am just amazed how people are twisting themselves into pretzels so Vick is innocent and/or plays in the NFL again.

hollywood_texan
07-26-2007, 10:47 PM
Like I said. Lewis helped kill a HUMAN. I don't think anything more needs to be said bout this matter.

Apples and oranges?

Humans vs. animals. Seems pretty clear to me.

First, the Lewis situation happened before Goodell became Commissioner.

So what is Goodell suppose to do, ban Lewis from the NFL now?

That doesn't make any sense.

The Lewis situation is over and done with.

Like I said, the Lewis situation was a one-time deal. Same with Kobe. I don't here any stories that either of the people (victims) involved were just innocent bystanders. Two thugs going at it and one getting killed is a little different in people's eyes when it comes to some thugs making dogs fight. The dogs don't have a choice, people put themselves in situations so there is the possibility of less sympathy.

Lewis got lucky, if he was associated with that today, he would be toast too. Which wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.

Times have change and maybe you need to get with it.

This is a good thing if Vick is dirty...

You seem to be advocating the status quo of letting star athletes do what they want without any consequences.

Red_Zone
07-26-2007, 11:04 PM
Like I said. Lewis helped kill a HUMAN. I don't think anything more needs to be said bout this matter.

Apples and oranges?

Humans vs. animals. Seems pretty clear to me.

The Lewis case was ajudicated in a court of law, he worked out a plea deal and got a year probation. If I had my way he'd never play ball again but I wasn't the commish, neither was Godell but that's all in the past now and has nothing to do with Vick.

People are more upset about Vick because so many people love dogs and have pets and it has more personal meaning to them than a rumble between thugs out on the town for the night. Not making light of the kiliing of a human, but thats the way it is.

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 12:21 AM
Ok...

Again...How many high profile cases like this have been handled in this 'particular district'...

John Walker Lyndh (Johnny Taliban)
Zacarias Moussaoui
Gitmo Detainee Cases
Yamadi v. Rumsfeld
Moussi Khann
Walker Spy Ring

http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/

disaacks3
07-27-2007, 12:35 AM
It's funny to me that those most loudly bashing Ray Lewis and talking about the "facts" of the Vick case keep getting their facts w/ Mr. Lewis' case all messed up.

Ray Lewis may very well BE a thug, but in the incident in question absolutely NOBODY had him w/ a weapon in HIS hand. His two cohorts were found to have DEFENDED themselves. Ray didn't think he (or they) would get a "fair shake" by an unfairly biased court system (against black males), so he told them to keep their mouths shut. He pled on an Obstruction charge regarding his instructions to his cohorts that may likely NOT have held up in court. (His co-defendants cases were adjudicated AFTER his plea - they were both found NOT GUILTY)

Murder pled down to "Obstruction of Justice?" - they didn't HAVE a case against Ray, his lawyers didn't need much of a "plan" to overcome the glaring HOLES in the prosecution's case.

Mike Vick has people pointing the finger at him (scumbags or not) and this being the Feds, you can bet there's some interesting phone discussions via wiretaps. Apples & Oranges indeed.

TexansLucky13
07-27-2007, 12:56 AM
Yeah, i saw that & all of the other crap surrounding this case & i must say that i'm going to change my tune right now on whether i think he'll ever play again in the NFL. I still think that he could beat these charges & any new ones that they possibly plan to bring against him for his freedom, but Goodell has steadily been backing himself into a corner since the suspension of pacman came down.

Interesting. I would say that Vick was the one backing himself into a corner.

:hmmm:

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 01:23 AM
Mike Vick has people pointing the finger at him (scumbags or not) and this being the Feds, you can bet there's some interesting phone discussions via wiretaps. Apples & Oranges indeed.


If you read paragraph 68 of the indictment, its pretty evident that one of CW referenced was an undercover Federal Agent (probably Treasury, maybe DEA) and NOT an informant.

They can make a case with a "snitch".. but if they have undercover Feds wearing wires and electronic intercepts, its pretty much over for "Ookie"....

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 01:36 AM
Like I said. Lewis helped kill a HUMAN. I don't think anything more needs to be said bout this matter.

Apples and oranges?

Humans vs. animals. Seems pretty clear to me.

If you are so concerned about certain people, animals, or things that should or should not get sympathy, maybe you can redirect your concerns to someone other than Mike Vick.

I am positive there is somebody more worth while than Mike Vick to be concerned about getting a fair shake.

There are many injustices in the world, I just don't understand why people are taking up his cause.

There has got to be something more worth while in the world of scarce resources.

ccdude730
07-27-2007, 02:11 AM
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7064522

some good info in that article. it also talks about a superceding indictment:

The feds announced that they will be filing a superceding indictment in August. Since there was only one count in the original indictment, I would expect that there will be multiple counts added that could elaborate on the dogfighting and gambling aspects of the crime and, to make matters worse, there could be racketeering charges filed against Vick based on the gambling aspects of dogfighting.

The maximum sentence for racketeering is 20 years in prison, although if convicted it's unlikely Vick would serve anywhere near that amount.

article also mentions possibility of plea bargaining:

When it comes to plea bargaining, Vick has a problem. Based on the indictment, he appears to have bankrolled the entire dogfighting operation, which began after he became a wealthy professional athlete.

Nevertheless, the two reasons why Vick may still be able to make a deal are: First, there would be a value to both sides if Vick is the first defendant to try and do a deal ó the government would be more likely to accept such a deal than if he were the last defendant to seek a deal. Second, the government knows that if it has to actually try Vick, it will be going up against a high-powered defense team, including prominent D.C. attorney Billy Martin, whereas, if they do a deal with Vick and take the other three defendants to trial, they will not be facing anywhere near as well-financed a legal defense.

bigfan77801
07-27-2007, 02:19 AM
What is the FED's conviction rate against famous people with money ?

Sure they have a high conviction rate against those who can't afford high power attorneys...

But what are they looking like against powerful teams of Lawyers ?

Pretty good.
Signed,
K Lay and J Skilling:bat:

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 04:33 AM
"When it comes to plea bargaining, Vick has a problem. Based on the indictment, he appears to have bankrolled the entire dogfighting operation, which began after he became a wealthy professional athlete.

Nevertheless, the two reasons why Vick may still be able to make a deal are: First, there would be a value to both sides if Vick is the first defendant to try and do a deal ó the government would be more likely to accept such a deal than if he were the last defendant to seek a deal. Second, the government knows that if it has to actually try Vick, it will be going up against a high-powered defense team, including prominent D.C. attorney Billy Martin, whereas, if they do a deal with Vick and take the other three defendants to trial, they will not be facing anywhere near as well-financed a legal defense. "

I disagree on this. Vick CAN'T Plea.. Here's why.

1. Vick has to give the Feds something on a plea. The other guys in his gang are "chump change." If Vick truly has these "nationwide connections" and can give them other BIG players in the dog fighting scene, then maybe the Feds will listen. Otherwise, forget it.

2. A Vick plea and conviction means he is FINISHED in the NFL for life. After a guilty plea on these types of charges, the NFL would ban him for life without any hesitation. Vick has to go to trial to save whatever chance he has to play again. Besides, what else can Vick do with his life besides play football?

3. Vick may be signing his own death warrant if he gives up others in a plea. These lowlifes in the dog fighting scene would not hesitate to whack Vick, his family etc. if he cops a plea and spills the beans.

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 08:33 AM
There's no talking to you guys who want to see this guy nailed to the wall b/c you're completely caught up in the emotion. You guys need to seperate the fact that just b/c we're looking at things differently, doesn't mean we are taking his side & doesn't mean that we agree with what was going on at this house. It also doesn't mean that you're opinion is right & ours is wrong. You're operating between the moral aspect & the actual trial. & in that regard, you're completely unwilling to see the justice system for what it is which is what Elle's trying to give you guys some insight on.

You guys think the case is air tight b/c of the feds conviction rate & the reading of the indictment. Hello, geniuses indictments are supposed to read that way, meaning be convincing. If you read almost any indictment from any case state or federal without knowing much about the actual case you could very well come away think the person is guilty. Doesn't mean that it can all be completely substantiated in the court of law.

We all agree that the court of public opinion is a different beast all together, but that doesn't mean that it's always right, much like no one believes the court of law is always right.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 09:08 AM
Before the Ray Lewis thing gets completely twisted out of whack, let's consider. :

The Ray Lewis Murder Trial (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/sports_issues/40799)
So far, the state of Georgia's case against Lewis has been rather flawed. Since the trial began, several witnesses whose testimony would supposedly demonstrate Lewis' guilt have altered the stories initially given to investigators. Their testimonies were supposed to show that Ray Lewis hit, kicked or stabbed someone, and that he even admitted as much afterwards. Instead, the vast majority of testimony has either been inconclusive, or else supports the defense's contention that Lewis acted solely as a peacemaker, trying in vain to prevent a tragedy that he would be tied to.

Lewis Murder Charges Dropped (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/news/19/06/04/lewis_agreement/)
Without much direct evidence linking Lewis to the stabbings of Richard Lollar and Jacinth Baker, prosecutors are trying to convince the jury that Lewis participated in a conspiracy to cover up the crime.



Sports Illustrated's Peter King reported Monday that the NFL likely will fine Lewis, but he will not be suspended based on the fact that Lewis was innocent of charges of murder, despite pleading guilty to obstruction of justice.


Also, and as someone had mentioned, Lewis case was a single act - not an organized crime ring.....

A few people have mentioned Vick plea bargaining, but who ever said the prosecutors offered a deal. Maybe they feel that they have enough that they do not need to offer Vick anything... If thats the case, Ron Mexico is screwed for sure..

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 09:22 AM
The mere fact that they were expecting him to cop a plea can go both ways though. After sharing the evidence with his attorney, the feds either felt that his attorney would be stupid to not try & get a plea bargain or maybe they were banking on the fact that Vick might've wanted this to go away as fast as possible. Thinking, if he wants to play ball & admit guilt to his role in this we'll help him out a bit & take what he gives us & use it to get P. Peace, the others & any more "known & unknowns."

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 09:31 AM
See, thats the thing Mr. Tex, I really beleive that the feds are going after Ookie as the "King Pin" and if anything would rather plea bargain with "T" and "Pee Funk"... Afterall, who is in a better position to bankroll the operation, "T", "Pee Funk" or "Ookie"..

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 09:47 AM
See, thats the thing Mr. Tex, I really beleive that the feds are going after Ookie as the "King Pin" and if anything would rather plea bargain with "T" and "Pee Funk"... Afterall, who is in a better position to bankroll the operation, "T", "Pee Funk" or "Ookie"..

I don't know, but with superceeding (sp?) charges coming in august, & now news that he could be a person of interest in Arizona, that could possibly be true. I'm going to follow this case closer than i've ever followed any case before & as details are released, It's going to be interesting whether they have their case rooted in a money trail or on the 4 CW's b/c in reading the indictment, it appears that it's the latter.

& if that's the case, i don't think they have a good shot of linking "ookie" (lol) as the kingpin in that route. Also, the guys who are up there with him, we have no clue of what they're into so i wouldn't rule out drug money being involved in this either.

Pantherstang84
07-27-2007, 11:07 AM
I keep hearing this innocent until proven guilty being repeated in this thread. Well.....


Here is everything you need to know about the Mike Vick/NFL situation.

To borrow an old cliche from The Sopranos and The Godfather....

It's just business.

The Vick supporters have a valid point. Mr. Vick deserves a fair trial and is innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

However, in the eyes of the NFL, it's not that simple. The National Football League is first and foremost a business. A very lucrative one at that. By just being indicted, Mike Vick has potentially affected the NFL business in an adverse way.

In a court of public opinion, Mike Vick is guilty. Right or wrong, this is the reality of the situation. The NFL has no choice but to bow to the will of the public opinion court in order to protect profits and its image.

Here is a little illustration (and it is a very true story)...

Last year a former coworker of mine got arrested and charged for what most people would consider a heinous crime. Now in the eyes of the law he was innocent until proven guilty. However, my employer fired him. Not exactly fair is it? The problem?

My employer is a very high profile company in the community and its public image is very important. Furthermore, the company has a significant portion of its employees working in and with the public every day. The arrest and criminal case was constantly in the press and was talked about around town constantly.

Now. What would the company's image have been if word got out that it had a ________ working for it?

Fair or not. The company had to protect its image. It had no choice.

That story is a perfect parallel to the Mike Vick situation. Fair or not, it is the reality.

Just like my former coworker, it is Mike Vick's own fault that he is in his situation. He may very well be innocent. However, he put himself in that situation by associating himself with the folks that are guilty.

The evidence is undisputable regarding what happened on that property. The ony thing left to determine is who was involved.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:12 PM
There's no talking to you guys who want to see this guy nailed to the wall b/c you're completely caught up in the emotion. You guys need to seperate the fact that just b/c we're looking at things differently, doesn't mean we are taking his side & doesn't mean that we agree with what was going on at this house. It also doesn't mean that you're opinion is right & ours is wrong. You're operating between the moral aspect & the actual trial. & in that regard, you're completely unwilling to see the justice system for what it is which is what Elle's trying to give you guys some insight on.

You guys think the case is air tight b/c of the feds conviction rate & the reading of the indictment. Hello, geniuses indictments are supposed to read that way, meaning be convincing. If you read almost any indictment from any case state or federal without knowing much about the actual case you could very well come away think the person is guilty. Doesn't mean that it can all be completely substantiated in the court of law.

We all agree that the court of public opinion is a different beast all together, but that doesn't mean that it's always right, much like no one believes the court of law is always right.

Why are you guys so hung up on some injustice to Mick Vick? There seem to be more facts pointing to Mick Vick involved in dog fighting directly in the indictment than anything supporting injustice to Mick Vick in this case.

As for Elle, she seems to argue that since Lewis was punished minimally, therefore so should Vick. That makes absolutely no sense in my opinion and clearly shows to me she is basing her opinion on emotion rather than the facts.

I don't think anyone in this thread is niave that injustices do not occur in the legal system from the perspective of defendants. My question is, why stick up for Vick? There has got to be a person more deserving than Mick Vick. I don't think he deserves any sympathy what so ever giving the circumstances that we all stipulate as the cold hard facts. Bottom line, Mick Vick was just stupid about this whole matter if he isn't guilty.

I have said this over and over. This is a pattern of behavior over several years in prosecuting this case. It's not one situation that got out of hand (Lewis and Kobe cases) at a specific moment. Therefore, the Feds have been building their case for some time now.

You wanna talk about injustices, let's talk about somebody other than Vick, and you probably may be surprised how close we are all in agreement.

This thread isn't about injustices, it's about Mick Vick!

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:20 PM
Why are you guys so hung up on some injustice to Mick Vick? There seem to be more facts pointing to Mick Vick involved in dog fighting directly in the indictment than anything supporting injustice to Mick Vick in this case.

As for Elle, she seems to argue that since Lewis was punished minimally, therefore so should Vick. That makes absolutely no sense in my opinion and clearly shows to me she is basing her opinion on emotion rather than the facts.

I don't think anyone in this thread is niave that injustices do not occur in the legal system from the perspective of defendants. My question is, why stick up for Vick? There has got to be a person more deserving than Mick Vick. I don't think he deserves any sympathy what so ever giving the circumstances that we all stipulate as the cold hard facts. Bottom line, Mick Vick was just stupid about this whole matter if he isn't guilty.

I have said this over and over. This is a pattern of behavior over several years in prosecuting this case. It's not one situation that got out of hand (Lewis and Kobe cases) at a specific moment. Therefore, the Feds have been building their case for some time now.

You wanna talk about injustices, let's talk about somebody other than Vick, and you probably may be surprised how close we are all in agreement.

This thread isn't about injustices, it's about Mick Vick!


Injustice done anywhere is injustice done EVERYWHERE. Some of us...well, mainly me and elle, don't like to see a man who from all personal accounts is a good guy get crucified in the court of public opinion because big brother decided to hand down an indictment, and that plus the word of some snitches makes it so. Let the man live his life, play his game, and if he is CONVICTED, then so be it. Until then, Vick has my sympathy for all the vitriol thrown his way by the happy go lucky lynch mob that is the stir crazy, a.d.d. addled public that likes the sight of blood.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 12:24 PM
If by all accounts you mean flipping fans off and spreading Venerial Disease under a pseudonym of Ron Mexico... I guess. :rolleyes:

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:29 PM
Injustice done anywhere is injustice done EVERYWHERE. Some of us...well, mainly me and elle, don't like to see a man who from all personal accounts is a good guy get crucified in the court of public opinion because big brother decided to hand down an indictment, and that plus the word of some snitches makes it so. Let the man live his life, play his game, and if he is CONVICTED, then so be it. Until then, Vick has my sympathy for all the vitriol thrown his way by the happy go lucky lynch mob that is the stir crazy, a.d.d. addled public that likes the sight of blood.

Most people do not believe "Ron Mexico", oh, excuse me, Mick Vick is a good guy and that opinion has nothing to do with this case.

Also, you seem to be connecting some dots here in some form of conspiracy or witch hunt. As I said before, there seems to be more facts supporting Vick's involvement than some conspiracy, witch hunt, or injustice.

Bottom line, there are rules to society and if they are not followed they need to be dealt with accordingly regardless of who you are.

In my job, if I was charged for a similar crime as Vick, I probably would be fired too. Why should Mike Vick get special treatment?

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 12:30 PM
Why are you guys so hung up on some injustice to Mick Vick? There seem to be more facts pointing to Mick Vick involved in dog fighting directly in the indictment than anything supporting injustice to Mick Vick in this case.

As for Elle, she seems to argue that since Lewis was punished minimally, therefore so should Vick. That makes absolutely no sense in my opinion and clearly shows to me she is basing her opinion on emotion rather than the facts.

I don't think anyone in this thread is niave that injustices do not occur in the legal system from the perspective of defendants. My question is, why stick up for Vick? There has got to be a person more deserving than Mick Vick. I don't think he deserves any sympathy what so ever giving the circumstances that we all stipulate as the cold hard facts. Bottom line, Mick Vick was just stupid about this whole matter if he isn't guilty.

I have said this over and over. This is a pattern of behavior over several years in prosecuting this case. It's not one situation that got out of hand (Lewis and Kobe cases) at a specific moment. Therefore, the Feds have been building their case for some time now.

You wanna talk about injustices, let's talk about somebody other than Vick, and you probably may be surprised how close we are all in agreement.

This thread isn't about injustices, it's about Mick Vick!

Noone is sticking up for him! but if we were, WHY NOT? This IS the same guy who donated money to victims families during the V-tech tragedy. This is the same guy who by the owner & GM of the Falcons accounts prior to this was a decent human being & had no serious run in's with the law. Now, b/c he's been implicated
in a dog fighting scandal, in which the extent of his involvement is not even known yet, Some of you guys are liking him to Osama bin laden.

everyone agrees that if he's found to have a huge hand in this, he will get what's coming to him, but can't you guys just withhold that angst until you know what's what? That's all anyone is saying.

Your right hollywood texan, alot of people didn't like him before this incident, so does that make it ok to just pile on & kick the man when he's down? I probably should've figured that this would come about since people were still condeming the man when he donated money to the va tech tragedy fund. Idiots were shouting... " that's all he gave, he's cheap.... etc, etc"

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 12:33 PM
Injustice done anywhere is injustice done EVERYWHERE. Some of us...well, mainly me and elle, don't like to see a man who from all personal accounts is a good guy get crucified in the court of public opinion because big brother decided to hand down an indictment, and that plus the word of some snitches makes it so. Let the man live his life, play his game, and if he is CONVICTED, then so be it. Until then, Vick has my sympathy for all the vitriol thrown his way by the happy go lucky lynch mob that is the stir crazy, a.d.d. addled public that likes the sight of blood.

You amaze me bro. You don't happen to call 610 10 times a day do you?

Stop comparing things and acting like they just came after Vick. The Feds can't help that some people are just dumb. As I wrote in another thread, if you read the paper daily you would see that there are Fed stings reported about weekly. Some deal with drug rings. Some deal with illegal alien transportation. Some deal with child porn rings. Well this one deals with dog fighting and they just happen to have a man who thought he was above the law. The investigated for 6 months if not more. The dotted their "i"s and crossed their "t"s. The got the ducks in a row. The Feds don't get indictments just by some hearsay testimony of some snitches. The hose that a man built had additions on it that were built just for training these dogs. Its not like some back alley, hidden venture. You keep ignoring the 95% conviction rate and chalking it up to dirty Feds without realizing that maybe they actually investigate and lay out cases in detail before even asking for an indictment....thus, they win.

Please read a little and stop the blind hero worship.

Ralph Sampson was a nice guy and went to jail in this same court for not paying his child support. Nice guys can still make dumb moves. Nice guys get DWIs. Nice guys hit rough stretches or have lapses in judgement.

Heck, I wouldn't trust his attorney considering he read a statement saying Mike doesn't want to miss "spring training."..lol. Rome is tearing this up.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:34 PM
Most people do not believe "Ron Mexico", oh, excuse me, Mick Vick is a good guy and that opinion has nothing to do with this case.

Also, you seem to be connecting some dots here in some form of conspiracy or witch hunt. As I said before, there seems to be more facts supporting Vick's involvement than some conspiracy, witch hunt, or injustice.

Bottom line, there are rules to society and if they are not followed they need to be dealt with accordingly regardless of who you are.
In my job, if I was charged for a similar crime as Vick, I probably would be fired too. Why should Mike Vick get special treatment?

there are no "facts". Just wild accusations, and you have no proof that he has done ANYTHING. Nothing. Not a single thing has been proven in a court of law. Vick donated a lot to virginia tech after the tragedies. Vick helps inner city kids, a lot, and very quietly..not for publicity. Vick has built houses for single mothers. I like that you jump on the vick is satan bandwagon, but you don't know the man or his actions, so stop judging.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:37 PM
Noone is sticking up for him! but if we were, WHY NOT? This IS the same guy who donated money to victims families during the V-tech tragedy. This is the same guy who by most accounts prior to this was a decent human being & had no serious run in's with the law. Now, b/c he's been implicated
in a dog fighting scandal, in which the extent of his involvement is not even known yet, Some of you guys are liking him to Osama bin laden.

everyone agrees that if he's found to have a huge hand in this, he will get what's coming to him, but can't you guys just withhold that angst until you know what's what? That's all anyone is saying.

I probably wouldn't be in this thread if it wasn't for this very discussion.

Totally agree, let the wheels of justice do it's thing.

As for Vick donating money to needy people, that doesn't make him a good person or that he follows the law. Many organized crime syndicates donate large amounts of cash to needy people. The two activities are completely separate.

It's like vegetarians, it seems to me they think they think they are more moral because they don't eat meat.

My point is, just because a person engages in a certain worth while activity (I am not referring to vegetarians in this regard), doesn't make them a good person or that they don't break the law.

You guys seem to be twisting yourselves into pretzels for Mick Vick and I just don't understand why.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:38 PM
I probably wouldn't be in this thread if it wasn't for this discussion very discussion.

Totally agree, let the wheels of justice do it's thing.

As for Vick donating money to needy people, that doesn't make him a good person or that he follows the law. Many organized crime syndicates donate large amounts of cash to needy people. The two activities are completely separate.

It's like vegetarians, it seems to me they think they are more moral because they don't eat meat.

My point is, just because a person engages in a certain worth while activity (I am not referring to vegetarians in this regard), doesn't make them a good person or that they don't break the law.

You guys seem to be twisting yourselves into pretzels for Mick Vick and I just don't understand why.



you seem to be leading the lynch party and i don't know why. Vick is innocent until 12 of his peers tell me otherwise. Nobody here has 1 percent of all the facts, and he's already nailed to a couple of 2 by 4s.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 12:39 PM
there are no "facts". Just wild accusations, and you have no proof that he has done ANYTHING. Nothing. Not a single thing has been proven in a court of law. Vick donated a lot to virginia tech after the tragedies. Vick helps inner city kids, a lot, and very quietly..not for publicity. Vick has built houses for single mothers. I like that you jump on the vick is satan bandwagon, but you don't know the man or his actions, so stop judging.

LAMO.. donated a lot of money to VaTech??? 10grrrr!!!

10grr divided by 130 mill... = .007 of 1%.... I give a larger percentage of my income to homeless folks at intersections...

real
07-27-2007, 12:40 PM
there are no "facts". Just wild accusations, and you have no proof that he has done ANYTHING. Nothing. Not a single thing has been proven in a court of law. Vick donated a lot to virginia tech after the tragedies. Vick helps inner city kids, a lot, and very quietly..not for publicity. Vick has built houses for single mothers. I like that you jump on the vick is satan bandwagon, but you don't know the man or his actions, so stop judging.

That's true...

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:40 PM
LAMO.. donated a lot of money to VaTech??? 10grrrr!!!

10grr divided by 130 mill... = .007 of 1%.... I give a larger percentage of my income to homeless folks at intersections...

i bet 10 grand did more for them than you did. I said a lot..not a lot relative to his income.

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 12:41 PM
I probably wouldn't be in this thread if it wasn't for this very discussion.

Totally agree, let the wheels of justice do it's thing.

As for Vick donating money to needy people, that doesn't make him a good person or that he follows the law. Many organized crime syndicates donate large amounts of cash to needy people. The two activities are completely separate.

It's like vegetarians, it seems to me they think they are more moral because they don't eat meat.

My point is, just because a person engages in a certain worth while activity (I am not referring to vegetarians in this regard), doesn't make them a good person or that they don't break the law.

You guys seem to be twisting yourselves into pretzels for Mick Vick and I just don't understand why.


It doesn't prove anything & it's 2 seperate things, but it shows some sort of good will, he could've just said to hell with them, even though it's the place that allowed him to become who he is.

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 12:41 PM
there are no "facts". Just wild accusations, and you have no proof that he has done ANYTHING. Nothing. Not a single thing has been proven in a court of law. Vick donated a lot to virginia tech after the tragedies. Vick helps inner city kids, a lot, and very quietly..not for publicity. Vick has built houses for single mothers. I like that you jump on the vick is satan bandwagon, but you don't know the man or his actions, so stop judging.

Please read above. Anyone can donate money. It doesn't mean that they don't do dumb things. Mort is on Rome right now that they may even supercede the indictment and have more charges on him. You're not being realistic. You pretty much need to drop the man crush. OJ used to give money too.

Wild accusations are not how the Feds run their show. These are things that they checked over and over and gathered for months and months.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 12:44 PM
i bet 10 grand did more for them than you did. I said a lot..not a lot relative to his income.

I didnt go to VaTech, but I was a part of 5 people who raised over 20 grrr for the 12 folks that passed at Bonfire....

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:45 PM
there are no "facts".

Yes there are facts, just to start of with a few:

1. There is a house built by Vick
2. Kennels were built at Vick's direction at the house
3. Vick knew they were breeding Pitt Bulls

Vick admitted himself that the people at the house took advantage of his generosity (that was a stupid remark and probably will be used against him in this trial some how). That seems to some sort of admission regarding dog fighting at the house, and is a FACT. Vick said it.

I just don't get it.

I am not rushing to any judgement, I am just interpreting what is right before my eyes.

If Vick isn't guilty, he is insanely stupid and with some sort negligence.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:48 PM
I didnt go to VaTech, but I was a part of 5 people who raised over 20 grrr for the 12 folks that passed at Bonfire....

so maybe you should stop criticizing his donation until you do better for those people. I hate the attitude that the feds are automatically right because they are the feds. Thats ignorance at its height.

HOU-TEX
07-27-2007, 12:49 PM
Noone is sticking up for him! but if we were, WHY NOT? This IS the same guy who donated money to victims families during the V-tech tragedy. This is the same guy who by the owner & GM of the Falcons accounts prior to this was a decent human being & had no serious run in's with the law. Now, b/c he's been implicated
in a dog fighting scandal, in which the extent of his involvement is not even known yet, Some of you guys are liking him to Osama bin laden.

everyone agrees that if he's found to have a huge hand in this, he will get what's coming to him, but can't you guys just withhold that angst until you know what's what? That's all anyone is saying.

Your right hollywood texan, alot of people didn't like him before this incident, so does that make it ok to just pile on & kick the man when he's down? I probably should've figured that this would come about since people were still condeming the man when he donated money to the va tech tragedy fund. Idiots were shouting... " that's all he gave, he's cheap.... etc, etc"

After reading the amount of money he's spent on his inhumane hobby of dog fighting, 10 grr was the winning pot of ONE dogfight. What does that say about his feelings for Va. Tech? IMO, that's being cheap. Oh..I forgot to mention the 100 something million he's getting payed to play football.:gun:

The guy needs to go away.

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 12:51 PM
Yes there are facts, just to start of with a few:

1. There is a house built by Vick
2. Kennels were built at Vick's direction at the house
3. Vick knew they were breeding Pitt Bulls

Vick admitted himself that the people at the house took advantage of his generosity (that was a stupid remark and probably will be used against him in this trial some how). That seems to some sort of admission regarding dog fighting at the house, and is a FACT. Vick said it.

I just don't get it.

I am not rushing to any judgement, I am just interpreting what is right before my eyes.

If Vick isn't guilty, he is insanely stupid and with some sort negligence.

Thank you!This is getting insane. I'm hearing from Mort and others on the radio right now this same thing. The Feds don't indict without evidence and without coberrating testimony regarding the evidence. The things you laid out are bad enough. They are saying Blank is close to cutting him. I would think that these people have some insight as to what is going on. Vick, at some point will deal. that is just my feeling.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 12:52 PM
After reading the amount of money he's spent on his inhumane hobby of dog fighting, 10 grr was the winning pot of ONE dogfight. What does that say about his feelings for Va. Tech? IMO, that's being cheap. Oh..I forgot to mention the 100 something million he's getting payed to play football.:gun:

The guy needs to go away.

hasn't been proven to be a dogfighter.
Your opinion is worthless, bet 10,000 meant a lot to the people it went to help.
Why does he need to go away? nothings been proven?

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 12:52 PM
so maybe you should stop criticizing his donation until you do better for those people. I hate the attitude that the feds are automatically right because they are the feds. Thats ignorance at its height.

Dude I think your bloody lungs have made you completely delusional or you intentionally throw out whatever crap to see what sticks...

I can gaurantee you that If I was a Millionaire the Fund for those 12 Aggies would have been way larger.

I guess you can't educate someone who enjoys their bliss in ignorance.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:53 PM
you seem to be leading the lynch party and i don't know why. Vick is innocent until 12 of his peers tell me otherwise. Nobody here has 1 percent of all the facts, and he's already nailed to a couple of 2 by 4s.

I don't wanna see Vick lynched or crucified. It appears you are taking this a little too personal.

First, I am perfectly fine with the wheels of justice in this matter. If Vick is found guilty, he will not be sentenced to death, and I am not advocating he should be. Whatever the penalties are and what the judge hands down upon a conviction, so be it as long as it's impartial with no corruption.

As for the NFL suspending Vick, that's their choice. They have to run a business and protect their investment. That's how are society works.

If you have an issue with Vick getting what is essentially being fired from his job, take it up with PETA and the Humane Society. That's the pressure that's brought this to bear. And good luck when trying to persuade them Mike Vick is a good guy.

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 12:53 PM
so maybe you should stop criticizing his donation until you do better for those people. I hate the attitude that the feds are automatically right because they are the feds. Thats ignorance at its height.

LMAO. That is ignorance but ignoring the indictment and the facts of what he owns and what they found so you can watch a guy play football is good common sense?LOL. Give me a break. No one says mistakes aren't made. They are just pointing out that they are rarely wrong and that these cases happen weekly. It isn't a Vick thing.

HOU-TEX
07-27-2007, 12:54 PM
so maybe you should stop criticizing his donation until you do better for those people. I hate the attitude that the feds are automatically right because they are the feds. Thats ignorance at its height.

Oh to be young again, having the belief of invincibility. You will eventually grow out of having the "it's you against the world" mentality. Good day:)

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 12:55 PM
Oh to be young again, having the belief of invincibility. You will eventually grow out of having the "it's you against the world" mentality. Good day:)

LMAO.. I was thinking the same thing...

I can remember being 21, just like I can remember drinking my first beer...

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Injustice done anywhere is injustice done EVERYWHERE. Some of us...well, mainly me and elle, don't like to see a man who from all personal accounts is a good guy get crucified in the court of public opinion because big brother decided to hand down an indictment, and that plus the word of some snitches makes it so.

oh, so now your intentions have less to do with your own personal agendas of making money on gambling and being entertained, and more to do with Vick being a "good person"?

You've already shown your cards, man. We know your perspective: you don't care about dogs, Vick is a good bet to help you make personal gain, and he entertains you.

Drop the concerned citizen act. It does not serve your pot stirring reputation very well.

Vick donated a lot to virginia tech after the tragedies. Vick helps inner city kids, a lot, and very quietly..not for publicity. Vick has built houses for single mothers. I like that you jump on the vick is satan bandwagon, but you don't know the man or his actions, so stop judging.

So what. The mafia does a lot of charity work, as does Hamas and Hugo Chavez. I guess we should just excuse FEDERAL CRIMES because their hearts are in the right place? Ever hear of smoke screens and mirrors? Maybe Vick's "charity" is more about making an image and selling a product, one that you have happily lapped up like a kitten with milk.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 12:59 PM
hasn't been proven to be a dogfighter.
Your opinion is worthless, bet 10,000 meant a lot to the people it went to help.
Why does he need to go away? nothings been proven?

If you are at famaliar with celeberties, very regularly, they don't make donations directly themselves.

It's their publicists and managers that handle these affairs and orchestrate these events.

To some extent, it's just marketing money so they get bigger endorsements in the future because it promotes their public image.

What is $10,000 relative to Mike Vick and his net worth anyway?

real
07-27-2007, 01:00 PM
It isn't a Vick thing.

It is a Vick thing.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 01:02 PM
If you are at famaliar with celeberties, very regularly, they don't make donations directly themselves.

It's their publicists and managers that handle these affairs and orchestrate these events.

To some extent, it's just marketing money so they get bigger endorsements in the future because it promotes their public image.

What is $10,000 relative to Mike Vick and his net worth anyway?

I covered that.... .007 of 1%

real
07-27-2007, 01:02 PM
So what. The mafia does a lot of charity work, as does Hamas and Hugo Chavez. I guess we should just excuse FEDERAL CRIMES because their hearts are in the right place? Ever hear of smoke screens and mirrors? Maybe Vick's "charity" is more about making an image and selling a product, one that you have happily lapped up like a kitten with milk.


That's true...good point...

HOU-TEX
07-27-2007, 01:03 PM
hasn't been proven to be a dogfighter.

Only the blind see otherwise.

Your opinion is worthless, bet 10,000 meant a lot to the people it went to help.

"Your opinion is worthless"

Signed,

A clueless Vick fan

Why does he need to go away? nothings been proven?

People like him make the NFL look bad. It will be proven and when it does, you'll be one of the misguided Vick fans whimpering with disgust.


I'm done with the Vick topic today. Good day

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 01:09 PM
It is a Vick thing.

No, it is a dog fighting thing that just happens to involve a moron who pimped his house out for dog fights...allegedly. As I said before, they conduct stings in their sleep and whomever gets caught up, gets caught up. If there is someone above him, they will go after him. If Vick was the ringleader, then they will get him and everyone under him. I keep hearing callers talk about the Feds just wanting to nail a black athlete and it is ludicrous. He may be the main cog but he isn't why they went after this group. It is a large, multi-state dog fighting ring. I don't care if it is this, porn rings, drug rings, whatever or whomever..get them off the street. I've always liked Vick but that doesn't excuse him for at the least gross negligence.

I'm not dense and I know this puts a face on dog fighting that they can use the "Vick" tag for the future but I also know some guys who do secret service work and do Fed work and they are a different cat and are pretty serious about the case or task itself.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 01:11 PM
No, it is a dog fighting thing that just happens to involve an ***** who pimped his house out for dog fights...allegedly. As I said before. They conduct stings in their sleep and whomever gets caught up, gets caught up. If there is someone above him, they will go after him. If Vick was the ringleader, then they will get him and everyone under him. I keep hearing callers talk about the Feds just wanting to nail a black athlete and it is ludicrous. He may be the main cog but he isn't why they went after this group. It is a large, multi-state dog fighting ring.

It is for that reason, that I think the Feds will go the extra mile to have their ducks in a row, and treat this case with kit gloves....

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 01:12 PM
Nobody here has 1 percent of all the facts, and he's already nailed to a couple of 2 by 4s.

I must admit that in terms of Mike Vick I have already:

1. Inserted an IV needle into his forearm and started the saline drip....

2. Shaved his head and attached electrodes to his head and forerm....

3. Put a noose around his neck and a hood over his head....

4. I'd put him in a gas chamber, if I could find one....

But to compare what Mike Vick deserves to the pain and suffering, and persecution endured by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just WRONG.

Specnatz
07-27-2007, 01:13 PM
I rally have to laugh at some comments in this thread. Just like I laugh at callers that call into 610 just to say Vick is a good gy and they should just forget about this case and let him play football.

This whole he is guilty until proven innocent bullcrap line is a joke. That means to say that we should not have an opinion one way or another on any case ever presented to the courts. Which is not going to happen.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 01:14 PM
No, it is a dog fighting thing that just happens to involve an ***** who pimped his house out for dog fights...allegedly. As I said before. They conduct stings in their sleep and whomever gets caught up, gets caught up. If there is someone above him, they will go after him. If Vick was the ringleader, then they will get him and everyone under him. I keep hearing callers talk about the Feds just wanting to nail a black athlete and it is ludicrous. He may be the main cog but he isn't why they went after this group. It is a large, multi-state dog fighting ring.

If this is a black athelete thing, the Fed's need to saddle up and get after a white athelete doing something similar.

I am all for that, let's clean this up regardless of the ethnicity of the people involved.

They can go black to white sting operations, or vice versa, until we run out of vice versa and keep going when the ethnicity is the same.

real
07-27-2007, 01:17 PM
No, it is a dog fighting thing that just happens to involve an ***** who pimped his house out for dog fights...allegedly. As I said before. They conduct stings in their sleep and whomever gets caught up, gets caught up. If there is someone above him, they will go after him. If Vick was the ringleader, then they will get him and everyone under him. I keep hearing callers talk about the Feds just wanting to nail a black athlete and it is ludicrous. He may be the main cog but he isn't why they went after this group. It is a large, multi-state dog fighting ring.


You talk about the Feds like they are robots.....

Just like any other human, emotions and personal beliefs do come into play...

I'm not saying they are going after him because he is Mike Vick...that's stupid...

They are going after him because he broke the law....

But that still doesn't make it out of the realm of possibility that the fact that he is Mike Vick is playing part in how people (yes even the people that work for federal prosecutors) are approaching this case.

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 01:28 PM
You talk about the Feds like they are robots.....

Just like any other human, emotions and personal beliefs do come into play...

I'm not saying they are going after him because he is Mike Vick...that's stupid...

They are going after him because he broke the law....

But that still doesn't make it out of the realm of possibility that the fact that he is Mike Vick is playing part in how people (yes even the people that work for federal prosecutors) are approaching this case.

Sorry, if it came out that way. I'm just looking at it without trying to put any bias into it and am trying to separate what is happening with an investigation and what I hear as a sports fan from people.

You may be right on how they approach this and like I said, they can put a face on dog fighting. I just don't buy that they are trying to put a "black" face or a "football" face on it. I think there are people of all backgrounds that get involved in this stuff. I'm sure they have some feeling towards it within the investigation and as Bill said above, I would think they would even be a little more meticulous knowing what the general public might think. I just didn't hear this outcry when Nate Newton and some other fun, nice guys were nailed for driving trash bags of dope around, etc. I just wanted to point out that the Feds nailed and jailed Ralph Sampson and others and people didn't bat an eye.

Again, I hear ya, I am just trying to separate the two and am looking at it as if we were debating the merits of dog fighting and busting a ring instead. No harm..I hope..lol

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 01:32 PM
If this is a black athelete thing, the Fed's need to saddle up and get after a white athelete doing something similar.

"PHOENIX -- A federal magistrate judge planned to rule Friday on an application by The Associated Press to have prosecutors reveal the names of players allegedly implicated in drug use by former major league pitcher Jason Grimsley.

During a hearing Thursday at federal court in Phoenix, Major League Baseball Players Association lawyer Ethan Balogh called the AP's attempt to make the names public a "craven search for the sensational and the morbid, nothing more."

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/325394_steroids27.html

Paging Jason Grimsley, Jason Giambi, Roger Clemens, please report to the nearest Federal Grand Jury....

Do Bonds and Sosa get their own "special" Grand Jury??

infantrycak
07-27-2007, 01:40 PM
Lol, I'll put it like this, if OJ & those cops in the rodney king ordeal can beat their cases, he can as well.

OJ didn't beat the civil suit and the Rodney King cops didn't beat the federal charges.

Porky
07-27-2007, 01:46 PM
I would be perfectly happy if his punishment is no jail time....instead, how about some creative sentencing. Put him in a pit with a few of the hungry mistreated pitt bulls. About 6 sounds right. Rub him down with meat and A1 steak sauce. If Vick wins, he can walk. If he loses, then throw him down on the pavement head first a few times. Then, wet him down and hook him up to the car battery. If he somehow manages to survive that, then hang him by his mouth on a tree for a few hours. Then throw him on the rape stand and tie him down for a while some inmates have their way with him. Lastly, throw him in a cage for weeks on end, and don't feed him and neglect him.

Sounds about right to me. :bat:

infantrycak
07-27-2007, 01:48 PM
Of course Federal prosecutors are probably some badd azzes themselves, but I just can't see a plea of not guilty if they weren't fairly confident in getting the verdict to swing their way...

Maybe the case isn't as air tight as everyone seems to think...

Wow, Elle and you need to step away from the keyboard with this logic. The 95% conviction rate comes against people who 100% plead not guilty.

Did you really expect him to take a plea this early in the game and face an instant suspension from the league?

How do you know any plea offered didn't include jail time?

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Wow, Elle and you need to step away from the keyboard with this logic. The 95% conviction rate comes against people who 100% plead not guilty.

Did you really expect him to take a plea this early in the game and face an instant suspension from the league?

How do you know any plea offered didn't include jail time?

I have never heard of a federal plea in a felony criminal case against an individual that DIDN't involve some terms of confinement.

They make you do at least 10 days in confinement before you start Probation just for "interferring with a flight crew" a/k/a "pissing off the flight attendant"...

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 02:41 PM
You guys are lost in your hatred. Anyone criticizing someone for donating money they don't have to is absurdly idiotic & frankly there's nothing else that needs to be said.

hollywood_texan
07-27-2007, 02:49 PM
You guys are lost in your hatred. Anyone criticizing someone for donating money they don't have to is absurdly idiotic.......... period.

I was not criticizing Vick for donating money.

Vick donating money and his indictment are two different independent scenarios. The two should not even be discussed at the same time, much less connected in some train of dots of some type of logic.

Point is, neither one should be impacting the other outcome. Gifts are done with no expectation of something in return. Otherwise, they wouldn't be gifts. Would they?

SWT was putting it out there that since Vick donated money, he should get some type of leyway or something like it.

We are saying no. If you are indicted for a crime, donations or any other good deeds are irrelevant in proceeding with a trial.

I don't see how that is hate.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 02:52 PM
You guys are lost in your hatred. Anyone criticizing someone for donating money they don't have to is absurdly idiotic & frankly there's nothing else that needs to be said.

Way to over-simplify how that conversation went... :rolleyes:

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 02:56 PM
Way to over-simplify how that conversation went... :rolleyes:

yeah, b/c there's some magic chart out there that says you have donate this much b/c you make this much...... right......

:sarcasm:

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 02:57 PM
I was not criticizing Vick for donating money.

Vick donating money and his indictment are two different independent scenarios. The two should not even be discussed at the same time, much less connected in some train of dots of some type of logic.

Point is, neither one should be impacting the other outcome. Gifts are done with no expectation of something in return. Otherwise, they wouldn't be gifts. Would they?

SWT was putting it out there that since Vick donated money, he should get some type of leyway or something like it.

We are saying no. If you are indicted for a crime, donations or any other good deeds are irrelevant in proceeding with a trial.

I don't see how that is hate.

no, i was saying you guys were calling him scum, and was pointing out things to prove that that isn't so. He's a good guy. He's done good things. I like that his entire name is getting buried in this federal vickhunt

Specnatz
07-27-2007, 03:07 PM
no, i was saying you guys were calling him scum, and was pointing out things to prove that that isn't so. He's a good guy. He's done good things. I like that his entire name is getting buried in this federal vickhunt

Ted Bundy helped little old ladies across the street and donated to the red cross, he is not scum.

Signed

SWT and his bet on the Falcons

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 03:07 PM
I was not criticizing Vick for donating money.

Vick donating money and his indictment are two different independent scenarios. The two should not even be discussed at the same time, much less connected in some train of dots of some type of logic.

Point is, neither one should be impacting the other outcome. Gifts are done with no expectation of something in return. Otherwise, they wouldn't be gifts. Would they?

SWT was putting it out there that since Vick donated money, he should get some type of leyway or something like it.

We are saying no. If you are indicted for a crime, donations or any other good deeds are irrelevant in proceeding with a trial.

I don't see how that is hate.


Wasn't really aimed at you per se, but you gotta be kidding me if you think stuff like this doesn't come into play during a trial. PETA has brought so much heat to the case that Goodell had to kick the guy out of training camp just so the falcons could practice in peace. Some witnesses are called into a trial exclusively to lend credibililty to the accused. I'm sure his lawyer will mention it at some point to tug on their heart strings a little bit & to loosen them up a bit,but that's not to say it'll work though.

Mr teX
07-27-2007, 03:16 PM
Ted Bundy helped little old ladies across the street and donated to the red cross, he is not scum.

Signed

SWT and his bet on the Falcons

yeah, b/c you've lived your life absolutely perfect & you never engaged in anything that might've got you in trouble when you were younger! :sarcasm:

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 03:43 PM
He doesn't bet on the Falcons. Please stop using his part-time job as a poker player to attempt a slam. It's very unappealing.

your wrong on this one elle. I've got a very decent sum of money on the falcons to win this super bowl....they have the facts straight on this one. I admitted it a couple of weeks ago. Aprreciate the sentiment though. It was a lapse in my own personal policy. mea culpa.

infantrycak
07-27-2007, 03:47 PM
Why should I walk away from my keyboard because I'm saying that this anger is getting out of hand, we need to wait and see what happens and let's save our community before we have to sign up into 2 groups: Vicks and Non-Vicks?

My comment was directed solely to the non-logic of arguing a not guilty plea provides any indication of weakness in the government's case.

And you are peeing into the wind if you think people here or elsewhere are not going to take the information available and make judgments and discuss it.

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 03:48 PM
Some dirtbag, or manybe more, are reducing their time by turning on Vick. Chances are they had bigger roles than him and will get away with much less. Is that fair?


When this indictment came down last week, the two practicing attorneys in my family all sat down and discussed it.. Based upon the factual detail in the indictment they were convinced that at least one of the “CW” named is an undercover Federal Agent. The other CW may be “thug snitches” but at least one CW is an Agent.

Where you have an undercover Federal Agent, there is very likely electronic surveillance, wires, etc. I’m sure the superceding indictment will maybe have RICO and money laundering and tax evasion counts. Lots of more “Bad Newz” for the “Dog Boys”

And given that some of Mike’s “Possee” likes to traffic marijuana –there may be a drug trafficking charge added in as well.
Remember Mikes "Magic Water Bottle" that reeked of weed?

Also remember I think it was that fine outstanding citizen “P Funk” that was arrested in 2004 with a pound of marijuana in a pickup truck owned by “sweet, pure, innocent Saint Mike”...

I can just see Mike Vick after the superceding indictment bawling....

"This is all entrapment.. I was set up by the "cracker Feds" and they just want to keep me down because I'm Mike Vick."

disaacks3
07-27-2007, 03:54 PM
no, i was saying you guys were calling him scum, and was pointing out things to prove that that isn't so. He's a good guy. He's done good things. I like that his entire name is getting buried in this federal vickhunt

He doesn't bet on the Falcons. Please stop using his part-time job as a poker player to attempt a slam. It's very unappealing. Want to see why SWT is getting "unnecessarily slammed"? Please look at the bolded words above.

Who says he's a good guy? Why is this a Federal Vickhunt? The first asserts that he knows Vick any better than we do, and the second asserts that's the Feds are after HIM and not illegal dogfighting in general.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 03:55 PM
Want to see why SWT is getting "unnecessarily slammed"? Please look at the bolded words above.

Who says he's a good guy? Why is this a Federal Vickhunt? The first asserts that he knows Vick any better than we do, and the second asserts that's the Feds are after HIM and not illegal dogfighting in general.

I do know him better than you. I am saying he is a good guy. I called it a Vickhunt as a playon words to Witchhunt. Sorry that flew over your head. They aren't after illegal dogfighting in general, they are after Michael Vick.

disaacks3
07-27-2007, 04:01 PM
I do know him better than you. I am saying he is a good guy. I called it a Vickhunt as a playon words to Witchhunt. Sorry that flew over your head. They aren't after illegal dogfighting in general, they are after Michael Vick. Witchhunt = Hunt for Witches Vickhunt = Hunt for Vick - guess your own analogy is lost on you?

..and you know him better than the rest of us....riiiight! :ok:

HoustonFrog
07-27-2007, 04:18 PM
I do know him better than you. I am saying he is a good guy. I called it a Vickhunt as a playon words to Witchhunt. Sorry that flew over your head. They aren't after illegal dogfighting in general, they are after Michael Vick.

(Shaking Head) I have no other words that will make you get this. So you are arguing that the Federal Government has been waiting all this time to bring down the super crafty Michael Vick?Sorry, they got the face of dog fighting only because he owned property..which had buildings specifically for dog fighting training..and then investigated. Its the other way around. Come on, I think you are now just trying to throw gasoline on the fire.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 04:19 PM
(Shaking Head) I have no other words that will make you get this. So you are arguing that the Federal Government has been waiting all this time to bring down the super crafty Michael Vick?Sorry, they got the face of dog fighting only because he owned property..which had buildings specifically for dog fighting training..and then investigated. Its the other way around. Come on, I think you are now just trying to throw gasoline on the fire.


you will never convince me otherwise. C-O-N-spiracy.

infantrycak
07-27-2007, 04:20 PM
They aren't after illegal dogfighting in general, they are after Michael Vick.

Get serious, this was all an accidental find while they were going after a different guy on different (drug) charges.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 04:26 PM
there are no accidents cak.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 04:26 PM
I am positively convinced now that SWT doesn't really beleive the ignorant stuff that he's spewing. He's just trying to get a rise out of people just for the sake of it....

It was fun....

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 04:27 PM
I am positively convinced now that SWT doesn't really beleive the ignorant stuff that he's spewing. He's just trying to get a rise out of people just for the sake of it....

It was fun....

i believe it. If this ship goes down, I go down with it.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 04:30 PM
i believe it. If this ship goes down, I go down with it.

Well consider yourself re-arranging deck furniture on the Titanic, now.

Porky
07-27-2007, 04:40 PM
i believe it. If this ship goes down, I go down with it.

Come on SWT. I know you too well. I don't think you really believe half the **** you spew. You've admitted as much to me personally before. Come on, now. Admit it. You're just the resident pot stirrer, trying to get under people's skin. If you actually do believe the **** you spew, you are in serious need of immediate help. :pirate:

Specnatz
07-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Well consider yourself re-arranging deck furniture on the Titanic, now.

Nice. I like it.

:wild:

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 04:42 PM
You guys are lost in your hatred. Anyone criticizing someone for donating money they don't have to is absurdly idiotic & frankly there's nothing else that needs to be said.

What is truly idiotic is justifying animal cruelty because someone gave to a charity.

But you're a dog hater, so I'm not sure why I even bother to respond. You will never get it.

I do know him better than you.

Prove it.

I think you are 'acting' delusional because of a personal agenda, not because you actually hold Mike Vick up to be your hero.

If this ship goes down, I go down with it.

I honestly don't get it, swt. Why such an emotional attachment to an entertainer?

If it's personal and you don't want to talk about it, I understand and respect your position.

I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your devotion.

Blazing Arrow
07-27-2007, 04:45 PM
yeah, b/c you've lived your life absolutely perfect & you never engaged in anything that might've got you in trouble when you were younger! :sarcasm:

A good tax accountant should have a sliding chart that tells them what to donate. Ever notice donations usually do not come in until the end of the year usually? It is because there tax guy tells them make the donations before the end of the year and make it for this amount to have the smallest amount of tax liability.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 04:46 PM
What is truly idiotic is justifying animal cruelty because someone gave to a charity.

But you're a dog hater, so I'm not sure why I even bother to respond. You will never get it.



Prove it.

I think you are 'acting' delusional because of a personal agenda, not because you actually hold Mike Vick up to be your hero.



I honestly don't get it, swt. Why such an emotional attachment to an entertainer?

If it's personal and you don't want to talk about it, I understand and respect your position.

I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your devotion.

I know Marcus personally, have met him a couple of times and found him to be a really nice guy. Vick has been my favorite player for a long time. I was in Atlanta at a draft party when he was taken, own 4 of his jerseys, and have watched almost every game he plays. To me he embodies everything a quarterback should be, and nothing that any other quarterback pre-vince could do. I'm not going to sit here and watch an idol of mine be destroyed over something as stupid as dogfighting.

infantrycak
07-27-2007, 04:49 PM
I know Marcus personally, have met him a couple of times and found him to be a really nice guy.

LOL--yeah, I am best buds with about 25 of the Texans because I met them at the All Access party.

I'm not going to sit here and watch an idol of mine be destroyed over something as stupid as dogfighting.

And that pretty much sums it up. Idol worship over reality.

Second Honeymoon
07-27-2007, 04:50 PM
I know Marcus personally, have met him a couple of times and found him to be a really nice guy. Vick has been my favorite player for a long time. I was in Atlanta at a draft party when he was taken, own 4 of his jerseys, and have watched almost every game he plays. To me he embodies everything a quarterback should be, and nothing that any other quarterback pre-vince could do. I'm not going to sit here and watch an idol of mine be destroyed over something as stupid as dogfighting.

Hello children, today's word is TROLL. As in, don't feed the troll.

:troll:

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 04:51 PM
I know Marcus personally, have met him a couple of times and found him to be a really nice guy. Vick has been my favorite player for a long time. I was in Atlanta at a draft party when he was taken, own 4 of his jerseys, and have watched almost every game he plays. To me he embodies everything a quarterback should be, and nothing that any other quarterback pre-vince could do. I'm not going to sit here and watch an idol of mine be destroyed over something as stupid as dogfighting.

That's cool, man. Thanks for sharing the details, because it sheds some light on your devotion to defending the guy.

Although I do find it strange that a self-professed "liberal" would be so callused about animal cruelty, but I guess it takes all kinds in this big world of ours.

Blazing Arrow
07-27-2007, 04:51 PM
A troll with 4600+ post is quite a troll. I thought I was a heavy troller and I am less then 400.

swtbound07
07-27-2007, 04:52 PM
LOL--yeah, I am best buds with about 25 of the Texans because I met them at the All Access party.


And that pretty much sums it up. Idol worship over reality.

My ex-girlfriend used to go to Hampton, up in virginia....her and her friends used to party with marcus and his friends, and I went up there a couple of times to see her and hung out with him. Im not in his inner circle or anything, but we've hung out and he's a nice guy.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 04:52 PM
Michael Vick:
1. Current situation
2. Water bottle incident
3. Flipping the bird at fans
4. Herpes / Ron Mexico incident...

I guess he is a good person compared to his little brother Marcus:

2002-2003
While Vick arrived at Tech with great fanfare, he did not in fact play as a true freshman. Beamer redshirted him, and he was a member of the dress squad for every game. During his freshman year, he ran a 4.48 forty and posted a 36-inch vertical jump during spring max testing. Vick threw five touchdown (TD) passes during spring scrimmages and added another in the Maroon-White game. He was 6-for-7 passing for 95 yards and one TD during one scrimmage, and turned in a 57-yard run in another scrimmage. He hit 10-of-15 passes for 92 yards and a TD in the Maroon-White game. Earned the Paul Torgersen Award for the top offensive newcomer.

In 2003, Vick played in eleven games, splitting time with Bryan Randall. The highlight of Vick's season came during a 31-7 upset win over #2 Miami. Despite completing only one pass, Vick's exceptional running ability and the outstanding play of Tech's defense contributed to one of the biggest wins in Tech's history. In Virginia Tech's loss in the Insight Bowl to the California Golden Bears, Vick racked up 82 receiving yards, including one touchdown reception. [3]


[edit] 2004: suspension for multiple unlawful incidents
Prior to the 2004 collegiate season, Vick was arrested and ultimately convicted for providing alcohol to three underage girls who "claimed" to be college students. In a subsequent incident, Vick was charged with reckless driving and possession of marijuana. He was suspended from the university for the fall semester of 2004. [4]


[edit] 2004: conditional reinstatement
Vick was reinstated to the school and the football team under specific guidelines that warranted immediate dismissal from the team for further transgressions.


[edit] 2005: strong playing, more incidents
Head coach Frank Beamer initially announced that Vick would enter the 2005 season as the team's third-string quarterback, but he quickly won the starting role after impressive spring practices and scrimmages. All in all, it was Vick's most successful season which saw the Hokies contending for a national championship and culminating in an impressive 11-2 record, an ACC Coastal Division title, an appearance in the inaugural ACC Championship Game in the 2005 season, and a win in the 2006 Gator Bowl.

The 2005 season, however, saw more controversy surrounding Vick. On October 1, 2005, Vick angered fans and press in Morgantown, West Virginia with a display of his middle finger to the crowd during the game at West Virginia University. Vick later apologized and made no further comments. He also was pushed into a West Virginia University assistant coach while coming back onto the playing field after being run out of bounds. This incident was caught on film and played on ESPN later.

During the 2006 Gator Bowl on January 2, 2006, Vick once again courted controversy when he violently stomped on the leg of University of Louisville defensive end Elvis Dumervil with his foot. Following the game Vick claimed the incident was accidental and asserted he apologized to Dumervil after the game. However, Dumervil and Louisville coaches all said that Vick didn't even talk to Dumervil after the game. Virginia Tech Athletic Director Jim Weaver issued a statement from the university on the incident:

“ The unsportsmanlike conduct of quarterback Marcus Vick in yesterday's Gator Bowl game against Louisville is unacceptable behavior and contrary to the Hokies Respect Campaign. Such on-field action is not reflective of Virginia Tech football nor of the values we hold at Virginia Tech. I and my colleagues in central administration are embarrassed and this athletic administration will not condone such acts of unsportsmanlike conduct. We will review and assess this incident further and deal with it accordingly. ”


[edit] Additional traffic arrests
Vick had lost his privilege to drive a motor vehicle in Virginia as the result of multiple traffic convictions, including reckless driving. On December 17, 2005, he was charged in Hampton, Virginia with speeding, and for the second time, with the more serious misdemeanor charge of driving on a suspended or revoked license. [5],


[edit] Dismissal from Virginia Tech
In 24 career games at Virginia Tech, Vick threw for 2,868 yards, 19 touchdowns and 15 interceptions while also running 184 times for 492 yards and six touchdowns. However, during the same period, he was charged with nine traffic offenses, as well as convictions for possession of marijuana and contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

On January 6, 2006, Virginia Tech announced his permanent dismissal from its football program "due to a cumulative effect of legal infractions and unsportsmanlike play."[6]

In response to being thrown off the team, Vick has been quoted as saying, "It's not a big deal. I'll just move on to the next level, baby."[7]


[edit] More non-driving legal troubles
With three days of expulsion from Virginia Tech, Marcus Vick became involved in another incident resulting in criminal charges, this time back home in Hampton Roads. The result in court was yet another misdemeanor conviction, but only suspended jail time. He also subsequently became the target of a civil lawsuit which had not been resolved as of June 8, 2007.


[edit] Criminal charges, conviction in Suffolk, Virginia

Marcus Vick's mugshot in Suffolk, VirginiaOn January 9, 2006, he was charged with three counts of brandishing a firearm, a Class One misdemeanor [8] [9], in Suffolk, Virginia. A police report stated that he allegedly pointed a gun at a 17-year-old and at least two of his friends in the parking lot of a McDonald's restaurant in the 6200 block of Town Point Road in Suffolk. It has been reported that Vick approached the group of teenagers after his girlfriend told him that someone from the group had made disparaging remarks towards her. [10] Vick claimed that the "gun" in question was actually a BlackBerry cell phone that was mistaken for a gun and that his accusers were trying to blackmail him. [11] Marcus Vick was convicted and received a six month suspended sentence for this incident. [12]

[edit] Civil lawsuit, fraud and sex with minor
On December 14, 2006, a 17-year old girl from Montgomery County, Virginia, filed a civil lawsuit against Marcus Vick accusing him of sexual battery upon a minor, fraud, and additional charges. In the lawsuit, seeking $6.3 million, an unnamed girl claims that when she was 15 (below the legal age of consent in Virginia) and was student in high school, she engaged in a sexual relationship with Vick, who was 20 years old, over a nearly two year long period. She also alleges Vick offered to provide her alcohol and marijuana and asked her to have sex with other men.[13] [14] It is not known whether any criminal charges were filed in connection with these alleged incidents.



Fine, fine people..... :rolleyes:

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 05:02 PM
A troll with 4600+ post is quite a troll. I thought I was a heavy troller and I am less then 400.

You should take lessons. swt is a professional pot stirrer. :shades:

Michael Vick:
1. Current situation
2. Water bottle incident
3. Flipping the bird at fans
4. Herpes / Ron Mexico incident...

I guess he is a good person compared to his little brother Marcus:

Fine, fine people..... :rolleyes:

yeah, but Marcus bought cases of Girl Scout cookies every year, so I really don't know what all the media hoopla is about. :howdy:

Blazing Arrow
07-27-2007, 05:08 PM
You should take lessons. swt is a professional pot stirrer. :shades:

I guess so. I question everything in my life now.

Texan_Bill
07-27-2007, 05:13 PM
You should take lessons. swt is a professional pot stirrer. :shades:



yeah, but Marcus bought cases of Girl Scout cookies every year, so I really don't know what all the media hoopla is about. :howdy:

Very nice... I guess when its all said and done the Vicks will be considered the Philanthropists of the century...

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 05:22 PM
Very nice... I guess when its all said and done the Vicks will be considered the Philanthropists of the century...

The moral of the story is start your charity work now, so if/when you blow a gasket, you're covered. It's like a free pass, a proverbial 'get out of jail free' card*. Of course, this is only a tactic to CYA from public opinion.



*DISCLAIMER: it won't actually keep you out of jail if you're found guilty of a felony

Hervoyel
07-27-2007, 05:45 PM
A troll with 4600+ post is quite a troll. I thought I was a heavy troller and I am less then 400.

400 posts? You're barely a blip on my troll radar. You hardly register on the Rich-Troll Magnitude scale. You're not even a real troll. You're a "troll-ling" or a "troll-let". Your momma troll is still carrying you around in her troll pouch.

Come back and call yourself a troll when you hit a thousand posts.

Blazing Arrow
07-27-2007, 05:55 PM
400 posts? You're barely a blip on my troll radar. You hardly register on the Rich-Troll Magnitude scale. You're not even a real troll. You're a "troll-ling" or a "troll-let". Your momma troll is still carrying you around in her troll pouch.

Come back and call yourself a troll when you hit a thousand posts.

Well I would have more troll-ness if the board had not been switched. I was in the 800+ on the old board. Plus I am more of a wondering troll. This is just one of my bridges. I have residence at jaguar.com and clotfreaks.com. I couple others but those are my big ones.

Double Barrel
07-27-2007, 06:36 PM
Well I would have more troll-ness if the board had not been switched. I was in the 800+ on the old board. Plus I am more of a wondering troll. This is just one of my bridges. I have residence at jaguar.com and clotfreaks.com. I couple others but those are my big ones.

Vinny can give you those 800 posts in your count if you want them.

Porky
07-27-2007, 06:37 PM
I totally agree with this take from PFT (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm). I still have very high suspicions about Dominck Davis, Williams, or *****, whichever he is going by this week.


NFL NEEDS A FULL-BLOWN DOG-FIGHTING INVESTIGATION

As the NFL struggles to respond to the jarring allegations made last week against Falcons quarterback Mike Vick, we believe that the league should ponder the issue of dog fighting among its employees more broadly.

Before someone else does.

We believe that it is in the best interests of the NFL to make a strong statement -- soon -- about the evils of dog fighting and about the league's commitment to identifying any and all players who are fans of this "sport," and to deal with them swiftly and harshly. We say this because we detect a sense of inevitability that, in time, more and more names will be named. And, sooner or later, the PETA crowd won't only be picketing Mike and Nike, but will launch a full-scale assault against a league that has been (and still might be) asleep at the switch regarding the prevalence of players who spend some of their free time watching and/or engaging in dog fighting.

Already, there is ample evidence to suggest that multiple current and former players are or have been involved in this illegal activity.

For example, when former Bears defensive tackle Tank Johnson's home was raided last year on weapons violations, "Johnson had six pit bulls locked in cages in his back yard, and neighbors said police were called several times on animal cruelty issues."

Why would tank have that many pit bulls on his property? To keep his guns company?

On Friday, former NFL player Steve DeOssie described on WEEI radio in Boston (as we've been told by several readers) that he attended a dog-fighting event during his playing days with Nate Newton and other teammates. Newton was once arrested at a dog fight.

Also, former NFL running back LeShon Johnson pleaded guilty to dog-fighting charges (amazingly, he did not serve time), and an item on the the Humane Society's web site indicates that former NFL running back Tyrone Wheatley once bragged about selling dogs for fighting.

Then there's this gem from Deion Sanders' asinine op-ed in the Fort Myers News-Press, in which he seems to indicate that he knows plenty of NFL players who are involved in dog fighting: "I believe Vick had a passion for dogfighting. I know many athletes who share his passion. The allure is the intensity and the challenge of a dog fighting to the death. Itís like ultimate fighting, but the dog doesn't tap out when he knows he can't win."

So what will the NFL do about this mounting evidence that Vick isn't the only guy with a shield on his shirt who has a "passion" for engaging in dog fighting? Ignoring it isn't an option. The league has at its disposal a security force made up of former law-enforcement types who should be able to get to the bottom of this situation, quickly.

Frankly, if NFL Security had been doing a better job of keeping an eye out for this kind of stuff over the past decade, the league might not presently be dealing with the unprecedented embarrassment arising from the Vick prosecution, and the looming fallout from the eventual (we predict) revelation that Vick was hardly alone in his perversion.

UPDATE: We'd forgotten about the incident involving Joey Porter's two dogs, which tried to eat a horse. If anyone out there is aware of any other incidents involving NFL players and their canines, please let us know.

ChildressTitanMan
07-27-2007, 06:50 PM
I guess he is a good person compared to his little brother Marcus:

Marcus Vick's mugshot in Suffolk, VirginiaOn January 9, 2006, he was charged with three counts of brandishing a firearm, a Class One misdemeanor [8] [9], in Suffolk, Virginia. A police report stated that he allegedly pointed a gun at a 17-year-old and at least two of his friends in the parking lot of a McDonald's restaurant in the 6200 block of Town Point Road in Suffolk. It has been reported that Vick approached the group of teenagers after his girlfriend told him that someone from the group had made disparaging remarks towards her. [10] Vick claimed that the "gun" in question was actually a BlackBerry cell phone that was mistaken for a gun and that his accusers were trying to blackmail him. [11] Marcus Vick was convicted and received a six month suspended sentence for this incident. [12]

Fine, fine people..... :rolleyes:

I had no clue Smith & Wesson made the Blackberry. I can't believe Miami gave him a chance.:gun:

Blazing Arrow
07-27-2007, 07:34 PM
Vinny can give you those 800 posts in your count if you want them.

I'll just keep my current number. it would be a guess as to the number of posts. No big deal. I was trying to prove my troll factor. I am not sure if that is a good or bad thing .... :cowboy1:

HOU-TEX
07-27-2007, 07:41 PM
My ex-girlfriend used to go to Hampton, up in virginia....her and her friends used to party with marcus and his friends, and I went up there a couple of times to see her and hung out with him. Im not in his inner circle or anything, but we've hung out and he's a nice guy.

The thing that puzzles me about your whole Vick manlove is this: In other threads you totally despise Barry Bonds (as myself) and Bush, but in this thread you idolize Vick.

The Vicks are by far worse people than either one. I guess that says alot about you as a person.:gun:

Koolaid Time
07-27-2007, 07:51 PM
Very nice... I guess when its all said and done the Vicks will be considered the Philanthropists of the century...


The Vick Family are the "Corleones" of Newport News VA.

ChildressTitanMan
07-27-2007, 08:27 PM
The Vick Family are the "Corleones" of Newport News VA.

More like the coldsores.:splits:

Mr teX
07-28-2007, 07:49 AM
What is truly idiotic is justifying animal cruelty because someone gave to a charity.

But you're a dog hater, so I'm not sure why I even bother to respond. You will never get it.



Prove it.

I think you are 'acting' delusional because of a personal agenda, not because you actually hold Mike Vick up to be your hero.



I honestly don't get it, swt. Why such an emotional attachment to an entertainer?

If it's personal and you don't want to talk about it, I understand and respect your position.

I'm just trying to figure out the logic behind your devotion.


So now, b/c dogs don't hold a special place in my heart & i'm not running around here screaming bloody murder about the things that happened at this house i'm a dog hater? Yeah, b/c i must wanna see them get ripped to shreds & starved since i don't agree with the dog lovers on this site. :ok:Good one DB, you usually think things through a little better than that. & tell me When did i ever justify dog fighting? You guys are out for blood & now people can't even look at this whole ordeal objectively without being labeled a vick apologist, lover or anything pro-vick.
I made a statement to go along with some of the things SWT said that was supposed to ultimately show that the guy does do alot of good that most of you are ignorant to, or just choose to ignore. Yes, they Should be thought of totally seperate from the indictment, the reality is, they'll be brought in at some point by the defense to show try to paint a good side, just like i'm sure the feds will try & dig up everything they can find to paint him as much of a monster as possible.

I won't rehash my position & i won't apologize any more for withholding my judgement on this dude until a verdict comes down regardless of what the indictment says & regardless of what the other co-defendants are doing. I will at least afford him that.

Continue to watch dog whisperer & let your dog lick you in the mouth, i'm outta here.

Grams
07-28-2007, 08:46 AM
Some of your guys need to get a grip.

Whether Vick is guilty or innocent is up to the jury to decide. When his lawyers get all the info the Feds have and the additional indictment is processed, they may get him to plea bargin. There is likely to be additional charges for racketering/gambling, income tax evasion, etc.

None of this makes any difference to the NFL. The NFL is a very visible business and it does not want the face of one of it franchises to be someone who is facing felony charges.

Face it Vick is gone for this year - he will be spending too much time with his lawyers and in court and will not have time to prepare with his team for a game even if he is not suspended for the season.

If he is convicted of any of these crimes his NFL career is over. Doesn't matter if you think he is a good guy or not. Doesn't matter if you like dogs or not.

Even if he is not convicted his NFL career maybe over. Most if not all of his endorsements may never return either.

Double Barrel
07-28-2007, 11:52 AM
So now, b/c dogs don't hold a special place in my heart & i'm not running around here screaming bloody murder about the things that happened at this house i'm a dog hater? Yeah, b/c i must wanna see them get ripped to shreds & starved since i don't agree with the dog lovers on this site. :ok:Good one DB, you usually think things through a little better than that. & tell me When did i ever justify dog fighting? You guys are out for blood & now people can't even look at this whole ordeal objectively without being labeled a vick apologist, lover or anything pro-vick.

You are completely missing my point. You are trying to justify a felony because of some charity work. I do not see the connection.

YOU stated you don't care about dogs.

I'm not out for blood. I just look at smoke and say there's probably fire producing it. The situation is pretty obvious if you step back and try to be objective about analyzing the information. Take off your rose-colored glasses and quit kneeling at your Vick shrine and just look at the bigger picture for a sec. That's all I'm saying.

I made a statement to go along with some of the things SWT said that was supposed to ultimately show that the guy does do alot of good that most of you are ignorant to, or just choose to ignore. Yes, they Should be thought of totally seperate from the indictment, the reality is, they'll be brought in at some point by the defense to show try to paint a good side, just like i'm sure the feds will try & dig up everything they can find to paint him as much of a monster as possible.

Again, you try to justify felonies with charity work. If you can't recognize the serious flaw in your logic, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

I won't rehash my position & i won't apologize any more for withholding my judgement on this dude until a verdict comes down regardless of what the indictment says & regardless of what the other co-defendants are doing. I will at least afford him that.

I don't need an apology, and I don't think one is warranted. You feel the way you do, and I respect your right to hold that opinion, regardless if I agree with you or not.

You state that you are withholding judgement, but you're not. You seem to be excusing felonies, along with animal cruelty, because of some perceived personal agenda.

I think a fair trial is definitely the end game, but that doesn't stop the NFL from forming an opinion and casting judgement before then.


Continue to watch dog whisperer & let your dog lick you in the mouth, i'm outta here.

I mentioned the Dog Whisperer to you because you appear ignorant about dogs. I only suggested a show to help educate you, but it is purely your choice to remain without knowledge about a subject which you try to speak about. If you had any clue about dogs you wouldn't have said quite a few remarks in this thread, because they are painfully evident that your take is not an educated one on the subject.

But apparently, you have no desire to raise your awareness or education, and as Phil says, "the closed mind plays the part of prison cell." Just understand that people can see through the ignorance and will treat you accordingly. You represent yourself with words.

The "dog lick you in the mouth" comment is just kinda' weird, and I know it's probably your weak attempt to troll. But better luck next time, and, btw, I don't have a dog.

Mr teX
07-28-2007, 02:26 PM
You are completely missing my point. You are trying to justify a felony because of some charity work. I do not see the connection.

YOU stated you don't care about dogs.

I'm not out for blood. I just look at smoke and say there's probably fire producing it. The situation is pretty obvious if you step back and try to be objective about analyzing the information. Take off your rose-colored glasses and quit kneeling at your Vick shrine and just look at the bigger picture for a sec. That's all I'm saying.



Again, you try to justify felonies with charity work. If you can't recognize the serious flaw in your logic, I honestly don't know what to tell you.



I don't need an apology, and I don't think one is warranted. You feel the way you do, and I respect your right to hold that opinion, regardless if I agree with you or not.

You state that you are withholding judgement, but you're not. You seem to be excusing felonies, along with animal cruelty, because of some perceived personal agenda.

I think a fair trial is definitely the end game, but that doesn't stop the NFL from forming an opinion and casting judgement before then.




I mentioned the Dog Whisperer to you because you appear ignorant about dogs. I only suggested a show to help educate you, but it is purely your choice to remain without knowledge about a subject which you try to speak about. If you had any clue about dogs you wouldn't have said quite a few remarks in this thread, because they are painfully evident that your take is not an educated one on the subject.

But apparently, you have no desire to raise your awareness or education, and as Phil says, "the closed mind plays the part of prison cell." Just understand that people can see through the ignorance and will treat you accordingly. You represent yourself with words.

The "dog lick you in the mouth" comment is just kinda' weird, and I know it's probably your weak attempt to troll. But better luck next time, and, btw, I don't have a dog.

yeah, it was an attempt at trolling, i lost it for a sec, my fault, that's not me. Probably an indication that i just need to be done with this subject/threads all together. i'm going to make this my final post on the subject & i'll leave it at that b/c i knew sooner or later the "your ignorant" statement was coming from someone just b/c i said i could care less about dogs.

I'm not excusing anything, stop putting words in my mouth. I haven't pulled out the race card at any point, nor have i said that he should skate on all charges b/c he's Mike Vick or for any other reason anywhere in any of these threads. READ CLOSELY: HE'S GETTING WHAT'S COMING TO HIM, whatever that may be IF he's found guilty.

You guys just get upset b/c a couple of us don't want to join the lynchmob just yet & figure, "well if they're not with us, they're against us..".

Allright there it is, from now on i'm avoiding these threads like the plague.

Double Barrel
07-28-2007, 02:51 PM
yeah, it was an attempt at trolling, i lost it for a sec, my fault, that's not me. Probably an indication that i just need to be done with this subject/threads all together. i'm going to make this my final post on the subject & i'll leave it at that b/c i knew sooner or later the "your ignorant" statement was coming from someone just b/c i said i could care less about dogs.

Just to clarify: I did not say you were ignorant about your defense of Vick. That is your right to make a judgement call just as much as anyone else has the same right.

My specific point was that some of your statements about dogs - like them, hate them, be indifferent to them - are not factual to anyone that has any experience or knowledge of the animals.

Go back and read some of your generalized blanket statements about dogs to see what I'm sayin'.

Again, I'm not saying you are ignorant, but rather uneducated about the specific subject of canines. They are not the wild, uncontrollable beasts that you seem to believe.

Wolf
07-28-2007, 03:11 PM
http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38574

when talking about dogs, whether you like them or not there is good and bad.. this story was a really good one

Mr. White
07-28-2007, 03:16 PM
Love dogs or hate 'em, Vick's associated with organized crime.

He's associated with an organized crime enterprise that does the following:

a. Steals peaceful family dogs from their homes.
b. Duct tapes their mouths shut and lets the fighting dogs have their way with them.

In other words, they steal property from others with the intent to destroy it. Even if you don't care about animal cruelty, you've gotta admit this idea is pretty f'ed up.

For the "bait dog" aspect of this whole thing, I say screw this bastard. There are other aspects of this thing that piss me off, but none as much as what I've mentioned. Maybe Vick didn't do this himself, but he's associated with people that do.

If there's other NFL players involved (even Texans), screw them too. Round them up and ruin them.

Mr teX
07-28-2007, 03:32 PM
Just to clarify: I did not say you were ignorant about your defense of Vick. That is your right to make a judgement call just as much as anyone else has the same right.

My specific point was that some of your statements about dogs - like them, hate them, be indifferent to them - are not factual to anyone that has any experience or knowledge of the animals.

Go back and read some of your generalized blanket statements about dogs to see what I'm sayin'.

Again, I'm not saying you are ignorant, but rather uneducated about the specific subject of canines. They are not the wild, uncontrollable beasts that you seem to believe.


I don't know you might have me confused with someone else. I've been very careful to not say anything specifically about dogs (i've looked back in the other thread) other than that i could care less about them, which for the most part is true, & that they're just animals to me like any other i would come across; which they are. I did share with the board some of my experiences with them, i said that i thought that they were unpredictable for the most part & i don't think anyone can say for a certainty that they aren't, hell humans can't be sure of humans for the most part.

You replied back that most dogs are like that b/c their owners are like that, or something to that effect, which i agreed with for the most part.

By the way good post above Mr. white.

Red_Zone
07-28-2007, 04:46 PM
I know Marcus personally, have met him a couple of times and found him to be a really nice guy. Vick has been my favorite player for a long time. I was in Atlanta at a draft party when he was taken, own 4 of his jerseys, and have watched almost every game he plays. To me he embodies everything a quarterback should be, and nothing that any other quarterback pre-vince could do. I'm not going to sit here and watch an idol of mine be destroyed over something as stupid as dogfighting.

Then I guess you don't think good judgement should be one of the qualities a good quarterback should have. M. Vick has continually shown an inability to make good judgement decisions both on the field and off the field. All the other incidents from Ron Mexico to flipping off the fans to the bottle incident at the airport to blowing off congress because he didn't want to wait 90 minutes for the next flight pales in comparison to his using his signing bonus with the falcons to purchase the land and build a house for the express purpose of housing an illegal dog fighting operation.

And yes Vick is one of the most physically talented quarterbacks ever if not THE most talented. I was once one of his most ardent supporters but I've had about all the Mike Vick crap I can stand. The dude is a thug off the field and on field has admitted to quitting on his team when the chips were down. Coupled with his inability to read defenses and make good on field decisions it adds up to the fact that he's not really all that great a QB. Look up his all time stats and look up Harringtons, they're almost equal with Harringtons being better in some areas.Vick is exciting to watch but he'll never be an Elway or Montana, he doesn't have the brains for it. Still he coulda had it all but he blew it because his thug homies and being a thug were more important to him than football. What else could it be? Football certainly provided the better pay day.

Khari
07-28-2007, 04:48 PM
If there's other NFL players involved (even Texans), screw them too. Round them up and ruin them.

Find them and kick them out! :doot: :doot: :doot:

GuerillaBlack
07-28-2007, 05:47 PM
Vick's homeboy is leaving him behind:

http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/falcons/stories/2007/07/27/0728plea.html?cxntlid=homepage_tab_newstab

Specnatz
07-28-2007, 07:50 PM
I'm only here to state that these charges are just that and cannot be called felonies as of yet.

I'm out of these threads as well because I still hope that some kind of logical legal system is still maintained in this country.

By the way just to point out that they are not alleged felonies, by statues of criminal law they are felonies. The only thing alleged is if vick is guilty of them.

Double Barrel
07-28-2007, 08:49 PM
I'm only here to state that these charges are just that and cannot be called felonies as of yet.

I'm out of these threads as well because I still hope that some kind of logical legal system is still maintained in this country.

Should I wait for spelling and grammar corrections next? That's just silly of you to point out. We're all adults here and understand the nature of the court systems and the fact that these are alleged crimes against Vick until he's proven guilty.

Can we try to stay objective about a discussion of a current event? Emotion is not required.

These threads belong in the NSZ, because they have nothing to do with football, IMO.

Red_Zone
07-28-2007, 09:36 PM
I'm only here to state that these charges are just that and cannot be called felonies as of yet.

I'm out of these threads as well because I still hope that some kind of logical legal system is still maintained in this country.

Once again, "alleged" and "Felony" are legal terms applicable in a court of law and have no force or power at all over public opinion. There's not one person here who has the power to imprison Vick or deny him any of his rights to life, liberty or property so WE are free to make judgements and express our opinion and it will have no effect whatever on the legal system.

IF Vick had been a choir boy up till now and had not lived a thug life and had no record of a string of bad judgements and bad associations and involvements in nefarious activities I'm sure most people here and elsewhere would be willing to give Vick the benefit of the doubt, I know I would. But somewhere between flipping off the fans, Ron Mexico and letting his enterage steal a watch at the airport where for no apparent reason he wanted to hide a bottle with a secret compartment, I Lost all confidence in Mr Vick to do things the right way. Yes these charges are all "alleged" but, there are enough outright facts known for most of us to form an opinion of Vicks guilt in this matter. As DB said, there's just too much smoke here to not know that a fire exists somewhere. And frankly Vick has had the smell of smoke on him for some time now.