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Wolf
07-19-2007, 09:17 PM
25. Houston (22)

Another of the "How valuable can one player be" teams; Andre Johnson's 2006 consisted of him running eight-yard patterns and hoping David Carr was upright by the time he made his break. That's just not fair. Johnson's a championship-caliber lead wideout stuck with a band of misfits and miscreants. As pedestrian as Eric Moulds was last year, his departure has yet to be met with any significant replacement; Matt Schaub will help, but Johnson may find the going even harder this year. Oh, and the Texans tight ends? Let's just say they're not helping the quarterback-staying-upright problem.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/7033202?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

Texans_Chick
07-19-2007, 09:57 PM
Compare and contrast:

1. Dallas (1)

After six weeks of Drew Bledsoe, the Cowboys' receivers were struggling. While Terry Glenn had a very respectable 16.8 percent DVOA, Terrell Owens was at a woeful -7.7 percent, and Patrick Crayton (the likely third or fourth target on most plays) had only been thrown 12 passes in six weeks because Bledsoe couldn't stay upright long enough to find him. Even Jason Witten's 17.0 percent DVOA had him at a mediocre 13th amongst tight ends.

By the end of the year, Glenn's DVOA had improved to 20.4 percent, while Owens got all the way up to 12.2 percent. Crayton got 36 more attempts in the final 10 games and was the best third receiver in football. Witten's DVOA went up to 19.1 percent, seventh amongst all tight ends. The point: Having an even competent quarterback can be the difference between a group of receivers struggling, or being amongst the league's elite. While Owens and Glenn are getting up there in age, both have yet to show an appreciable level of decline in their metrics, and Owens will likely see an improved catch rate after healing his finger injury. Crayton remains one of the unsung threats in the league, and Witten, the best tight end in a division full of them. A team's top four receivers will see 65-70 percent of all the throws made by a quarterback over the course of a season; one through four, no one's better than the Cowboys.


I do not include this quote because I am a closet Cowboy fan or otherwise trying to muck up the Bull Pen with off topic talk. (please stay on point)

I include this quote because it illustrates a crucial point. That an offensive line that looks like velveeta and #2 receivers being MIA can change with better decision making from the QB position.

I am not saying that the Texans players are similar to the Cowboys, or that Schaub will be able to turn everything instantly around because those wouldn't be terribly factual statements based on what I have evidence for. I have no earthly idea what the Texans will look like next year at all. What I know pretty factually about the team (Andre Johnson is a damn good receiver), is out weighed by what I don't know (gee, how is the rest of the offense going to look like next year--they could be scary good or just scary).

But maybe had the Cowboys not reluctantly made the QB change mid-season, this year's Cowboy report might have read:

Another of the "How valuable can one player be" teams; Terry Glenn's 2006 consisted of him running eight-yard patterns and hoping Drew Bledsoe was upright by the time he made his break. That's just not fair. Glenn's a championship-caliber lead wideout stuck with a band of misfits and miscreants. As pedestrian as Terrell Owens was last year, his disgruntled departure has yet to be met with any significant replacement; Tony Romo will help, but Glenn may find the going even harder this year. Oh, and the Cowboy tight ends? Let's just say they're not helping the quarterback-staying-upright problem.


:shades:

Rex King
07-19-2007, 10:47 PM
It's an interesting comparison, considering the Cowpokes went to a more mobile QB and we're going to a less mobile one, yet the goal is the same - to have a QB who'll get rid of the ball before being sacked (without resorting to dumpoffs).

And a bad QB can make good receivers look not as good, but...Ravens ahead of Cardinals? Raiders ahead of us?

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2007, 02:21 AM
It's an interesting comparison, considering the Cowpokes went to a more mobile QB and we're going to a less mobile one, yet the goal is the same - to have a QB who'll get rid of the ball before being sacked (without resorting to dumpoffs).

And a bad QB can make good receivers look not as good, but...Ravens ahead of Cardinals? Raiders ahead of us?

Well, we've had this discussion on this board before but there's "mobility" and there's "mobility". Carr is like Rob Johnson. Both were supposed to be "mobile" because they're athletic. But neither of them were good at using that athleticism to avoid sacks. Schaub is supposed to be less athletic and less mobile but the clips from Atlanta show him throwing on the run, scrambling, working the pocket, and looking very comfortable doing it. So, I don't buy this whole "Schaub is just a statue" thing that some people are putting out there.

Texanmike02
07-20-2007, 03:08 AM
Compare and contrast:




I do not include this quote because I am a closet Cowboy fan or otherwise trying to muck up the Bull Pen with off topic talk. (please stay on point)

I include this quote because it illustrates a crucial point. That an offensive line that looks like velveeta and #2 receivers being MIA can change with better decision making from the QB position.

I am not saying that the Texans players are similar to the Cowboys, or that Schaub will be able to turn everything instantly around because those wouldn't be terribly factual statements based on what I have evidence for. I have no earthly idea what the Texans will look like next year at all. What I know pretty factually about the team (Andre Johnson is a damn good receiver), is out weighed by what I don't know (gee, how is the rest of the offense going to look like next year--they could be scary good or just scary).
:shades:

Bit of a difference with the Boys. They moved from a statue to a young guy who can move both in the pocket and around it. Bledsoe is famous for not handling pressure up the middle at all. I'm as high as anyone on Schaub. Just figured I should mention that. I'm not taking away from Schaub's decision making (which had better be better than DC's). He's not as mobile though but that in this case may help the line since they don't have to block for a mobile guy. I don't know just thought I'd mention it.

Mike

beerlover
07-20-2007, 04:17 AM
I'm tired of all these polls/rankings they mean NOTHING :user:

the Texans are at least a top 20 team, they've done more to improve than all but a handful of teams, they drafted well & made the big franchise QB move I just don't see how the so called experts could be so clueless. I'm ready for the season to begin now :cowboy1:

Overalls
07-20-2007, 07:26 AM
Yes DC lead the AFC in rushing yards for a QB a few years, but that didn't help him make good reads. Atlanta didn't change the offense when Schaub came in. They didn't all of a sudden go "Darn we gotta put the statue in. Let's take out all the QB run plays."

Vonta will help the passing game by picking up the blitz. Daniels is still learning and going into his 2nd season where the "experts" say players make their biggest leaps forward.

Do I think we need a legit #2 WR? Sure I do. That player may be on the team now. I don't know, but with a QB that makes better decisions, we may find out soon.

:fans:

Overalls
07-20-2007, 07:39 AM
This is from the article by Fox Sports in this thread.

Oh, and the Texans tight ends? Let's just say they're not helping the quarterback-staying-upright problem.

This quote is from the Fox Sports Strategy and Team thread.

Owen Daniels was critical in the offense through the first half of last season. He proved to be an every-down type of tight end. He was an effective blocker and also showed good speed and great hands.

You choose which one you want to believe. I'll believe the 2nd one.

maddogmrb
07-20-2007, 08:56 AM
I'm tired of all these polls/rankings they mean NOTHING :user:

the Texans are at least a top 20 team, they've done more to improve than all but a handful of teams, they drafted well & made the big franchise QB move I just don't see how the so called experts could be so clueless. I'm ready for the season to begin now :cowboy1:

Beer, I just have to take issue with a couple of your statements. I believe to say we drafted well is a big reach because our #1 pick is a smallish DT who is also the youngest player ever drafted #1 at his position which historically takes several years to mature into anyway. We had no #2. Our #3 was an unknown receiver from a small college who had one good all-star game. And the rest of the draft is what it is, later round picks.

As for Schaub, we all hope he will be but, to call him a franchise QB is a huge reach when he's only started 3 games, won none, and thrown as many ints as tds.

Of course, we all want them all to be all-pro, there just isn't any evidence to show that is going to happen at this point.

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 09:13 AM
This is from the article by Fox Sports in this thread.



This quote is from the Fox Sports Strategy and Team thread.



You choose which one you want to believe. I'll believe the 2nd one.



I'm going with option "B", thank you very much!!!

threetoedpete
07-20-2007, 09:55 AM
I'm tired of all these polls/rankings they mean NOTHING :user:

the Texans are at least a top 20 team, they've done more to improve than all but a handful of teams, they drafted well & made the big franchise QB move I just don't see how the so called experts could be so clueless. I'm ready for the season to begin now :cowboy1:

Well beerlover ,
Like the Yogi Said it's too coincidental to be a coincidence. You got the twenty eigth ranked team overall and when the experts start shaking the tree and examining all of our players and thier positions, they get ranked in the bottom of the pack, tells me there might be a little linkage there between quality of play and the quality of the tallent. Call me crazy ....but it might just be true. Like I said last month, we 're off the NFL radar . They should sneak up on a couple of 'em the first three or four.

real
07-20-2007, 10:03 AM
Bit of a difference with the Boys. They moved from a statue to a young guy who can move both in the pocket and around it. Bledsoe is famous for not handling pressure up the middle at all. I'm as high as anyone on Schaub. Just figured I should mention that. I'm not taking away from Schaub's decision making (which had better be better than DC's). He's not as mobile though but that in this case may help the line since they don't have to block for a mobile guy. I don't know just thought I'd mention it.

Mike

Mobility is what makes a QB good.






Signed,

Michael Vick

Co-signed,

Peyton Manning & Tom Brady

Specnatz
07-20-2007, 11:27 AM
Ranking Dallas #1 shows to me they guy has no clue. I thought two led the league in dropped passes last year? I am not saying they are bottom of the league but #1, maybe I just do not know what good recievers are. I guess I do not know as much as I thought I did when it came to ranking a teams wr, even after reading the rankings chart. I mean it did list catch rate, so I thought would have to include dropped passes?


If I am wrong can someone please explain it to me.

HOU-TEX
07-20-2007, 12:32 PM
My personal favorite WR group is Arizona's. Boldin reminds me alot of AJ. I'm really hoping the Cards make a run this year.:)

The obvious choice would be the Colts at #1

With this article choosing Dallas having the #1 WR group obviously makes me think whoever wrote it has a woody for TO.:gun:

threetoedpete
07-20-2007, 12:50 PM
My personal favorite WR group is Arizona's. Boldin reminds me alot of AJ. I'm really hoping the Cards make a run this year.:)

The obvious choice would be the Colts at #1

With this article choosing Dallas having the #1 WR group obviously makes me think whoever wrote it has a woody for TO.:gun:

Yeah I really like their draft and wouldn't be surprised if either they or Frisco, (I liked thier draft also) makes a nice run in the west. Gonning to be, judged on paper, a nice race to keep up with.

Look you're not going to put MS on the edge one one one with a DE. Kubes isn't going to do that with a guy who is slow footed. Now I don't know what he'll replace the waggle with, but he ain't going to run as much as he did with DC. You can book that. He isn't going to get his new toy killed right off the bat. They may run it but it isn't going to be run six to eight times a quarter. You believe anyting, you can believe that. I'm sure Kubes has plenty of stuff in the book to find a suitable repalcemant.

Overalls
07-20-2007, 01:19 PM
Our #3 was an unknown receiver from a small college who had one good all-star game. And the rest of the draft is what it is, later round picks.

.

He also lead his conference in all purpose yards.

I'm at work so I don't have all my links here or I would show that he did more than just have one good all-star game.

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Look you're not going to put MS on the edge one one one with a DE. Kubes isn't going to do that with a guy who is slow footed. Now I don't know what he'll replace the waggle with, but he ain't going to run as much as he did with DC. You can book that. He isn't going to get his new toy killed right off the bat. They may run it but it isn't going to be run six to eight times a quarter. You believe anyting, you can believe that. I'm sure Kubes has plenty of stuff in the book to find a suitable repalcemant.

Well, I think you'll see more roll outs with MS. He's better at it than DC is. Running the rollout isn't about how fast you can sprint, it's about how well you read the DE and make decisions. I think this is where a lot of people are making a mistake about MS's "lack of mobility." If your QB is in a foot race with the DE, it's because the play went wrong and frequently, that's because of a mistake by the QB.

real
07-20-2007, 02:00 PM
If I'm not mistaken the waggle is run without the pulling guard and the boot is with the pulling guard...

dalemurphy
07-20-2007, 03:40 PM
If I'm not mistaken the waggle is run without the pulling guard and the boot is with the pulling guard...

You are mistaken

real
07-20-2007, 03:49 PM
You are mistaken

I was.

But technically you can't really say that because there are many different ways to run it.

real
07-20-2007, 03:50 PM
http://web2.airmail.net/rasputin/football/plays/passes/waglcurl.gif
Here they run it with the center pulling.

This play is actually kind of stupid because the have they LT blocking the DE instead blocking down on the DT which would allow the guard to come off the DT and pick up the MLB in case he blitzed.... If that MLB blitzes it's going to be a disaster....Guess you'd have to gamble right...

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 03:55 PM
I thought the "waggle" play and the "bootleg" were essentially the same with the exception being run out of different formations. In other words, I thought the "waggle" is what you saw in the 60's and 70's out of the Wing-T. Kinda like you saw in the old, SWC and the bootleg was born out of the more modern pro-set formations. The bootleg of course can have a pulling guard, or guards, but can also be run without anyone pulling (obviously the "naked boot")

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 05:02 PM
I'm tired of all these polls/rankings they mean NOTHING :user:

Agreed. If the people writing these stories were so insightful, they'd be getting paid to work a FO gig for an NFL team. The overwhelming majority of them are journalism majors and are just watching the clock on a job like the rest of us. But there is nothing so special about their "insight" that makes their opinions any better than someone in a forum.

Being in the herd is easy. Just follow the cow in front of you. mooo.

Vinny
07-20-2007, 05:15 PM
Here they run it with the center pulling.

This play is actually kind of stupid because the have they LT blocking the DE instead blocking down on the DT which would allow the guard to come off the DT and pick up the MLB in case he blitzed.... If that MLB blitzes it's going to be a disaster....Guess you'd have to gamble right...
what are you going to block the DE with then? Air? You have the Guard blocking a guy in the second level (mlb) and now the DE doesn't have a man on him. How is this so smart? The center can't get to the DE in time...heck even some LT's aren't quick enough to handle NFL quality DE's...no way a center is going to pick him up well if you just leave him unblocked in this kind of QB action.