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Double Barrel
07-19-2007, 03:38 PM
Here's the entire 18 page Indictment for those who want to see it. It might of already been posted.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0717072vick1.html

How someone can read the entire document and not walk away with an idea of guilt is beyond me. The feds don't hand these things out like candy. When they indict someone, they mean business. A 95% conviction rating will attest to that little fact.

HoustonFrog
07-19-2007, 03:45 PM
How someone can read the entire document and not walk away with an idea of guilt is beyond me. The feds don't hand these things out like candy. When they indict someone, they mean business. A 95% conviction rating will attest to that little fact.

That is the point I made ad nauseum in this thread to SWT. This isn't some playground DWI with knuckleheaded County Attorneys. He wanted to ignore that prosecution rate but the rate means something because it shows they do their homework.

Double Barrel
07-19-2007, 04:32 PM
That is the point I made ad nauseum in this thread to SWT. This isn't some playground DWI with knuckleheaded County Attorneys. He wanted to ignore that prosecution rate but the rate means something because it shows they do their homework.

Always remember SWT likes to stir the pot, regardless if he actually believes what he is saying or not. Just keep a lid on your own pot and he won't be able to stir it. :shades:

HOU-TEX
07-19-2007, 04:36 PM
How someone can read the entire document and not walk away with an idea of guilt is beyond me. The feds don't hand these things out like candy. When they indict someone, they mean business. A 95% conviction rating will attest to that little fact.

I actually came away believing he was guiltier than I initially thought after reading it. I'd previously read that Vick was only in attendance a couple of times. The indictment clearly states he was present during several events.

IMO, he's screwed!

Errant Hothy
07-19-2007, 04:39 PM
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/4982637.html

ATLANTA — Michael Vick's legal troubles prompted Nike on Thursday to suspend the release of its latest product line named after the Atlanta Falcons quarterback.

Nike has told retailers it will not release a fifth signature shoe, the Air Zoom Vick V, this summer. Nike spokesman Dean Stoyer said the four shoe products and three shirts that currently bear Vick's name will remain in stores.

That's gotta be a blow to the ego.

Khari
07-19-2007, 04:40 PM
https://community.hsus.org/campaign/US_2007_dogfighting_nfl2?qp_source=gaba5n

:)

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 04:44 PM
4400 Falcon Parkway
Flowery Branch, GA
ATLANTAFALCONS.COM
July 19, 2007

A Message to our Fans:

We know you’re anxious to hear more from us regarding the indictment of Michael Vick and its implications to the Falcons. Pleased be assured that we are working diligently on exploring our options and getting the right people involved in this situation.

This is an emotionally charged and complicated matter. ere are a wide range of interests and legal issues that need to be carefully considered as we move ahead, including our need to respect the due process that Michael is entitled to. Also, this situation affects everyone – our club, our players and associates, our sponsors, our fans and the Atlanta community among
them – so we must consider all of our customers in making any decisions.

Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won’t make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing. As the owner of this club that’s, ultimately, my responsibility.

In the meantime, know that I’m saddened and distressed about this – not for myself, but for our fans and community who have been so loyal to us. We will do our very best to continue to earn your support.

Arthur M. Blank
Owner & CEO

This is the statement released by the owner of the falcons.

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 04:46 PM
Always remember SWT likes to stir the pot, regardless if he actually believes what he is saying or not. Just keep a lid on your own pot and he won't be able to stir it. :shades:

I understand stirring the pot but if you say certain things people will take them and you at face value, and if that is how you want to be percieved then it is on him. But I have no respect for him because of what he said.

Porky
07-19-2007, 04:48 PM
This is the statement released by the owner of the falcons.

Mr. Blank didn't earn his money by earning A's in Grammar class that's for sure. :cowboy1:

Porky
07-19-2007, 04:49 PM
I understand stirring the pot but if you say certain things people will take them and you at face value, and if that is how you want to be percieved then it is on him. But I have no respect for him because of what he said.

Then you would love his stance on abortion and babies. :gun:

GuerillaBlack
07-19-2007, 04:50 PM
Guerillas

Black?

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 04:56 PM
Then you would love his stance on abortion and babies. :gun:

No thanks, I have seen his views I care to.



Black?

Don't know what that ment and I honestly do not think I want to.

GuerillaBlack
07-19-2007, 04:59 PM
No thanks, I have seen his views I care to.





Don't know what that ment and I honestly do not think I want to.

Look at my name.

Double Barrel
07-19-2007, 05:06 PM
I understand stirring the pot but if you say certain things people will take them and you at face value, and if that is how you want to be percieved then it is on him. But I have no respect for him because of what he said.

I'm more of a 'say what you mean, mean what you say' kind of guy. But I know that's not a route for everyone.

Being a devil's advocate is a thrill for some folks, and I just figure to each his own and all that jazz. I've got a friend that used to do that to everyone on any given subject, but he's a certified a-hole and enjoys a 'good' debate ('good' being relative, because he just wanted to make people mad and lose it on him...like I said, an a-hole). I've often told him that a man that stands for nothing will fall for anything.

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 05:06 PM
I saw that, I just have NO clue where Xtru was going with that.

HOU-TEX
07-19-2007, 05:13 PM
This is the statement released by the owner of the falcons.

Pleased be assured that we are working diligently on exploring our options and getting the right people involved in this situation.

ere are a wide range of interests and legal issues that need to be carefully considered as we move ahead, including our need to respect the due process that Michael is entitled to.

Is it just me, or does anyone else take these statements as looking for ways to get rid of Vick?

I'd heard last night Vicks contract was very complicated due to being revised so many times. They're probably search for a way to wack him without taking it up the poop shoot

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 05:13 PM
I'm more of a 'say what you mean, mean what you say' kind of guy. But I know that's not a route for everyone.

Being a devil's advocate is a thrill for some folks, and I just figure to each his own and all that jazz. I've got a friend that used to do that to everyone on any given subject, but he's a certified a-hole and enjoys a 'good' debate ('good' being relative, because he just wanted to make people mad and lose it on him...like I said, an a-hole). I've often told him that a man that stands for nothing will fall for anything.

That is my stance. My dad used to say you have one thing that you were born with and it is your name (meaning your word) and if you lose that to those around you, then what is the point of even being around anyone. Something to that effect.

Texan_Bill
07-19-2007, 05:15 PM
I can't decide if that statement is a crawfish manuever or if Blank and the Falcons are really being pro-active.

Texan_Bill
07-19-2007, 05:17 PM
That is my stance. My dad used to say you have one thing that you were born with and it is your name (meaning your word) and if you lose that to those around you, then what is the point of even being around anyone. Something to that effect.

Many of us were brought up that way.... Some were brought up to change your name from Michael Vick, to Ron Mexico, to Mike Vick!! :shades:

Second Honeymoon
07-19-2007, 05:25 PM
Many of us were brought up that way.... Some were brought up to change your name from Michael Vick, to Ron Mexico, to Mike Vick!! :shades:

yeah the whole name change to 'Mike' Vick I thought was just great. like he was going for a tougher image now that he was in the NFL.

it was like when Ricky Schroeder was on Silver Spoons and he was like all young and pure as the driven snow and then it got cancelled and he couldn't get a job so he started wanting everyone to call him 'Rick' Schroeder thinking that would make people take him seriously....dude your Ricky Schroeder....your a good dye job and a few heroin/steroid binges away from being Danny Bonaduce...get over yourself.

and Michael Vick is Ookie or Mike or whatever the hell his name is today. It will probably be Prisoner #1337 soon. Didn't Ricky Schroeder have a role on that show where the fat guy shows his arse all the time...NYPD Blue I think was the name of it...

Porky
07-19-2007, 05:30 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else take these statements as looking for ways to get rid of Vick?

I'd heard last night Vicks contract was very complicated due to being revised so many times. They're probably search for a way to wack him without taking it up the poop shoot

Well, I kind of wonder if they might be stalling while pursuing a legal way to terminate his contract without taking a huge cap hit. They might be able to sue him for breach of contract or something similar. If that were granted, the NFL might not count it against the cap. I think that is a fair outcome for the the Birds, and also that way Vick doesn't earn another dime, again, that is also fair imo.

Anyone think they would take Matt Schaub back for our two second rounders now? :whip:

Second Honeymoon
07-19-2007, 05:34 PM
Well, I kind of wonder if they might be stalling while pursuing a legal way to terminate his contract without taking a huge cap hit. They might be able to sue him for breach of contract or something similar. If that were granted, the NFL might not count it against the cap. I think that is a fair outcome for the the Birds, and also that way Vick doesn't earn another dime, again, that is also fair imo.

Anyone think they would take Matt Schaub back for our two second rounders now? :whip:

There is no way in hell that Atlanta will get back any of the cap space that a prorated remaining signing bonus would count if they released him.

They may be able to get the actual signing bonus money back but not what it occupies within their salary cap structure. what is done is done and that money is spent and has to go somewhere. it counts against their camp in any situation whether it be trade or release. that is why you dont give players huge signing bonuses.

Porky
07-19-2007, 05:58 PM
There is no way in hell that Atlanta will get back any of the cap space that a prorated remaining signing bonus would count if they released him.

They may be able to get the actual signing bonus money back but not what it occupies within their salary cap structure. what is done is done and that money is spent and has to go somewhere. it counts against their camp in any situation whether it be trade or release. that is why you dont give players huge signing bonuses.

But, if the player defaults on his contract, couldn't the NFL then come in and effectively cancel the cap implications because the Falcons are releasing him due to the player defaulting on his end of the contract? Might not be possible, but I could see an exception being made.

real
07-19-2007, 05:59 PM
I saw that, I just have NO clue where Xtru was going with that.

Porky was talking about Posses, crews, and homeboys....then he mentioned "or whatever is hip these days"...or something to that extent....

Pac-Man and Vick are surrounded by geurillas...

that's what they call them...

HOU-TEX
07-19-2007, 06:05 PM
But, if the player defaults on his contract, couldn't the NFL then come in and effectively cancel the cap implications because the Falcons are releasing him due to the player defaulting on his end of the contract? Might not be possible, but I could see an exception being made.

I think it all depends how the contract is structured. They might be able to get some of the bonus money back from Vick. IIRC, Jake Plummer has to either play for TB or pay 6-8 million in bonus money back.

I could be totally wrong on this too and it wouldn't surprise me. lol:shades:

Texan_Bill
07-19-2007, 06:11 PM
I saw that, I just have NO clue where Xtru was going with that.

It was about what the "hip" crowd call their respective crews, or possies, etc. in todays society...

Pay attention son!!!

*EDIT* Xtru posted while I was typing I think. Hunting and pecking sucks!!

Koolaid Time
07-19-2007, 06:20 PM
This is the statement released by the owner of the Falcons.


And I don't like the way Blank is handling his $90 million dollar THUG.

And while I don't buy Atlanta Falcons season tickets... I DO own Home Depot stock that I am selling tomorrow.. and I'm sending Mr. Blank a personal letter that says:

1. I am very disappointed with how you handled the Vick situation. If the NFL isn't going to suspend this lowlife, YOU should.

2. Blanks' handling of the Vick situation has a negative reflection on his other business enterprises, a/k/a "Home Depot"..

3. I'm selling my Home Depot stock, and I'm encouraging other stockholders to do likewise.

4. From now on, I'm buying my lumber and hardware at Lowe's.. for one reason alone....

LOEW'S DOESN'T EMPLOY DOG KILLERS...

ARTHUR BLANK DOES...

Blazing Arrow
07-19-2007, 06:39 PM
Porky was talking about Posses, crews, and homeboys....then he mentioned "or whatever is hip these days"...or something to that extent....

Pac-Man and Vick are surrounded by geurillas...

that's what they call them...

I thought they were called "soul'juz"

Specnatz
07-19-2007, 08:36 PM
Porky was talking about Posses, crews, and homeboys....then he mentioned "or whatever is hip these days"...or something to that extent....

Pac-Man and Vick are surrounded by geurillas...

that's what they call them...

Thank you for the clarification.

real
07-19-2007, 09:10 PM
I thought they were called "soul'juz"

Yeah, that was in the late nineties and the early part of this decade...

Back when Master P. was hott...


Thank you for the clarification.

No problem...:)

The1ApplePie
07-19-2007, 10:21 PM
Petrino was looking for an excuse to get rid of Vick, and Mexico delievered.

cuppacoffee
07-20-2007, 12:23 AM
Quote:
4400 Falcon Parkway
Flowery Branch, GA
ATLANTAFALCONS.COM
July 19, 2007

A Message to our Fans:

We know you’re anxious to hear more from us regarding the indictment of Michael Vick and its implications to the Falcons. Pleased be assured that we are working diligently on exploring our options and getting the right people involved in this situation.

This is an emotionally charged and complicated matter. ere are a wide range of interests and legal issues that need to be carefully considered as we move ahead, including our need to respect the due process that Michael is entitled to. Also, this situation affects everyone – our club, our players and associates, our sponsors, our fans and the Atlanta community among
them – so we must consider all of our customers in making any decisions.

Given the differing perspectives and strong feelings around this issue, we probably won’t make everyone happy, but we are committed to doing the right thing. As the owner of this club that’s, ultimately, my responsibility.

In the meantime, know that I’m saddened and distressed about this – not for myself, but for our fans and community who have been so loyal to us. We will do our very best to continue to earn your support.

Arthur M. Blank
Owner & CEO


My translation: I ain't doing nothing until I have to.. :heat:

:coffee:

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 12:44 AM
But, if the player defaults on his contract, couldn't the NFL then come in and effectively cancel the cap implications because the Falcons are releasing him due to the player defaulting on his end of the contract? Might not be possible, but I could see an exception being made.

nope. this past offseason they even put specific language in the rulebook that puts the burden on the team. basically if you draft a bad apple, you only have yourself to blame and the NFL isnt going to make it any easier drafting players of questionable character.

Hagar
07-20-2007, 01:17 AM
As if we didn't know this would happen:

PETA to Protest the NFL (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vickprotest021907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 09:32 AM
Is it just me, or does anyone else take these statements as looking for ways to get rid of Vick?

I'd heard last night Vicks contract was very complicated due to being revised so many times. They're probably search for a way to wack him without taking it up the poop shoot


I would not be even a little bit surprised to find that the Falcons have had a number of contingency plans in place to get rid of Vick for the past couple of years. My own opinion is that they're going to wait a certain amount of time before they move but that they already know exactly where and how they're going to move. The only thing they're waiting for is for one of these charges to truly stick hard to Michael Vick so that they don't jump the gun and look more foolish than need be.

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 09:36 AM
As if we didn't know this would happen:

PETA to Protest the NFL (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vickprotest021907&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

Yes, that was a given. It is interesting to note that if the charges against Vick prove to be true and the Falcons/NFL seem to be scrambling to find a way to put Vick on the field anyway then PETA would actually be in the right to protest the NFL. Where dog fighting is concerned I think I'm on the PETA side (and I'm almost never on the PETA side of anything)

It remains to be seen whether or not this happens but I guess it would be one more example of the law of averages being true. Eventually even PETA was bound to be in the right about something.

eriadoc
07-20-2007, 09:54 AM
In the meantime, know that I’m saddened and distressed about this – not for myself, but for our fans and community who have been so loyal to us. We traded away our best QB and now we have lost our golden goose of marketing. Please keep sending the checks.

Arthur M. Blank
Owner & CEO

:pirate:

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2007, 10:14 AM
I would not be even a little bit surprised to find that the Falcons have had a number of contingency plans in place to get rid of Vick for the past couple of years. My own opinion is that they're going to wait a certain amount of time before they move but that they already know exactly where and how they're going to move. The only thing they're waiting for is for one of these charges to truly stick hard to Michael Vick so that they don't jump the gun and look more foolish than need be.

From what I've heard, if they cut him, he's a $7 million cap hit this year and a $15 million cap hit next year. That's OK this year but next year, that's hard. I think they were hoping to get at least 1 more good year out of him before making the decision.

And Blanks pulled a McNair, he wanted to show his guy that he was behind him and made a mistake.

Koolaid Time
07-20-2007, 10:26 AM
My translation: I ain't doing nothing until I have to.. :heat:

:coffee:

The Feds are obviously holding something back... here you have an interstate dog fighting opeartion that involved gambling.

The Feds usually tack on RICO violations, money laundering and tax evasion counts in cases like this.

:bat:

As for Arthur Blank.. I thought any player involved in illegal gambling warranted immediate suspension. I guess he doesn't have the guts to do the right thing until the NFL gives him a salary cap exception for suspending Vick.

And guess who has been amazingly silent during this whole mess:

Jesse Jackson
Al Sharpton
Former Congress-Thing Cynthia McKinney

Do they know that when you sleep with Dog Fighters you are likely to catch fleas and ticks?

I'll be in Atlanta this weekend, so it will be interesting to see it unfold first hand.

The Pencil Neck
07-20-2007, 10:35 AM
And guess who has been amazingly silent during this whole mess:

Jesse Jackson
Al Sharpton
Former Congress-Thing Cynthia McKinney

Do they know that when you sleep with Dog Fighters you are likely to catch fleas and ticks?


Sharpton responded with Peta:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13706834/detail.html

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 10:43 AM
The Feds are obviously holding something back... here you have an interstate dog fighting opeartion that involved gambling.

The Feds usually tack on RICO violations, money laundering and tax evasion counts in cases like this.

:bat:

As for Arthur Blank.. I thought any player involved in illegal gambling warranted immediate suspension. I guess he doesn't have the guts to do the right thing until the NFL gives him a salary cap exception for suspending Vick.

And guess who has been amazingly silent during this whole mess:

Jesse Jackson
Al Sharpton
Former Congress-Thing Cynthia McKinney

Do they know that when you sleep with Dog Fighters you are likely to catch fleas and ticks?

I'll be in Atlanta this weekend, so it will be interesting to see it unfold first hand.

I think they will avoid RICO. It is extremely tough to prosecute. I think the feds beleive the interstate dog operations are enough to hammer him.

Also, don't forget the various states where the dog fighting occurred (allegedly) can also bring a slew of charges. If the charges do not include the interstate issues, it would not be considered double jeopardy.. Therefore many of the states can come loaded for bear too.

Vinny
07-20-2007, 10:45 AM
Sharpton responded with Peta:
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13706834/detail.html Sounds like big Al has his head screwed on straight when it comes to this topic. It is shameful that humans can treat other living creatures like this for their own sadistic selfish pleasures.

ATLANTA -- The Rev. Al Sharpton teamed with PETA Wednesday to criticize dogfighting in a letter that went to all of Michael Vick's corporate sponsors.

The letter, signed by Sharpton, hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons and Ingrid Newkirk, president of PETA, went to Vick's sponsors, Falcons CEO Arthur Blank, and NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell.

"The recent media spotlight on dogfighting reminds us of society's callous disregard for the suffering of animals and disrespect for sentient beings," they wrote in letters that arrived by FedEx Wednesday morning.

"We hope that Mr. Vick is not a product of this insensitivity that runs through our society. ... It does us little good to prosecute just those who are famous and allow people across the country to continue to commit these hideous crimes.

awtysst
07-20-2007, 11:04 AM
Sounds like big Al has his head screwed on straight when it comes to this topic. It is shameful that humans can treat other living creatures like this for their own sadistic selfish pleasures.

Well I guess when you are Al sharpton and you throw darts at issues, you are bound to be on the right side of the issue one of these days.

mike moffat
07-20-2007, 11:49 AM
Man. This thing stinks so bad that even Al Sharpton got one right. Truly is a sad state of affairs.

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Sounds like big Al has his head screwed on straight when it comes to this topic. It is shameful that humans can treat other living creatures like this for their own sadistic selfish pleasures.

And it's even more shameful that some people are willing to look the other way and excuse animal cruelty and brutality because they just want to be entertained. :dontknowa

Porky
07-20-2007, 12:37 PM
Sounds like big Al has his head screwed on straight when it comes to this topic. It is shameful that humans can treat other living creatures like this for their own sadistic selfish pleasures.

OMG. The end of times truly are near. The Rev Al is on the right side of an issue, where the primary target is a black man, and I am learning is also pervasive among his culture. Congrats to Al Sharpton for doing the right thing, not the politically expedient thing. I have at least a small dose of newfound respect for this man. Good Job Rev Al! :whip:

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 12:39 PM
yup, just like I thought. the NFL and the Falcons look like they are going to give Vick something similar to a paid 'leave of absence' until the courtcase is resolved. The league and the Falcons don't want Vick around this year and this plan saves face with both factions of fans both anti and pro-vick.

Basically Blank doesnt want to piss off his African-American fans of whom a large segment are throwing the white flag of racist conspiracy on this while the rest of the fanbase wants him gone yesterday based on the facts already known. No one wants a fanbase split along racial lines and if Vick started playing it could get ugly amongst the Falcon fans. This way Blank throws an olive branch to both factions of fans and doesnt take the huge cap hit of releasing unless Vick is ultimately convicted.

Probably the smartest play for Blank at the moment. There will be no salary cap clemency for Blank. It is against the CBA and the owner's agreement. If Vick is released, they are in the hole for a lot of money against the salary cap.

if Vick is convicted, he would be suspended and lose the pay. if Vick is acquitted, he would be able to come back to the league next year and would keep the money he made through his leave of absence.

Personally, I would just suspend the guy for 8 weeks right up front without pay for conduct detrimental to the league and then suspend him for more if a jury finds him guilty. I know the NFLPA has to look out for their players so they just want Vick to continue to get paid until he is found guilty....and personally I dont have a problem with that.

Vick wont be playing this year
Vick will get paid until the court case is over
Vick will get convicted and never play for Falcons again but probably not in the NFL again

here is the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2943276

Porky
07-20-2007, 12:39 PM
NFL, Falcons could ask Vick to focus energies in court
(http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2943276)

ESPN is running the following story. Click the link above for the entire story:

ATLANTA -- In what has quickly evolved into a collaborative effort that includes the input of officials from the NFL, the NFL Players Association and the Atlanta Falcons, embattled quarterback Michael Vick could be urged to take a voluntary leave of absence to focus his energy on the legal challenges from a federal dogfighting indictment confronting him, sources said Thursday and Friday.

There are, however, two critical components that must be resolved: Falcons owner Arthur Blank must be on board with a plan that has generated considerable discussion at the league level the past two days. And Vick, who might be reluctant to accept even a paid hiatus from the game, might have to be convinced that the leave could be his best option right now.

Blank and the Falcons might also be considering other options.

Under the leave-of-absence scenario, and given the projected timeline of any trial that could ensue from the federal indictments brought against the quarterback Tuesday, all parties would enter into the agreement, if it is consummated, with the expectation that Vick would probably miss the entire 2007 season.

real
07-20-2007, 12:44 PM
I thought about it and there is no way the Falcons can run this guy out onto the field as their QB next year...that has 'bad situation' written all over it...

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 12:46 PM
At this point, I dont think a paid leave of absence for Vick is 'enough' that would quiet the masses and potential protestors. PETA certainly wouldn't back-off for a paid leave of absence...

The NFL should just hand down a years suspension. Afterall this case may go on for months, not to mention if states file individual cases on him. The quicker they distance themselves from him, the better off for the NFL as a whole.

real
07-20-2007, 12:47 PM
I think Vick is going to take a plea bargain...

TexanAddict
07-20-2007, 12:48 PM
Wow. Under this "leave of absence" scenario, can you imagine when the Texans travel to Atlanta with Schaub at QB and the Falcons have to trot out either Harrington or Culpepper? I think the home field advantage might even swing in our favor.

HoustonFrog
07-20-2007, 01:01 PM
I think Vick is going to take a plea bargain...

At some point he has to weigh the cost of continuous coverage and a long drawn out deal vs. admitting wrong doing, asking for forgiveness and getting a set limit on a suspension so he can plan accordingly. America is forgiving, almost too forgiving at times when it comes to this stuff. I'd think a hard line stance, post-indictment going public would turn off even more people and bring more information to light.

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 01:01 PM
Wow. Under this "leave of absence" scenario, can you imagine when the Texans travel to Atlanta with Schaub at QB and the Falcons have to trot out either Harrington or Culpepper? I think the home field advantage might even swing in our favor.


We can only hope considering what we did to Culpepper last year! :fans:

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 01:02 PM
Wow. Under this "leave of absence" scenario, can you imagine when the Texans travel to Atlanta with Schaub at QB and the Falcons have to trot out either Harrington or Culpepper? I think the home field advantage might even swing in our favor.


Yeah, I think the Texans just got a 9th home game this season.

Texan Asylum
07-20-2007, 01:17 PM
Wow. Under this "leave of absence" scenario, when the Texans travel to Atlanta with Schaub at QB...

I think the home field advantage might even swing in our favor.

Yeah, I think the Texans just got a 9th home game this season.


Nice...:thumbup

Khari
07-20-2007, 01:54 PM
go get them PETA and Sharpton ..... (i never thought i'd say that)

nunusguy
07-20-2007, 02:22 PM
And we thought David Carr was a polarizing figure here in Houston !
I suspect any sentiments stirred up by DC in Houston would represent relative apathy compared to the passion and intensity of feelings happening in ATL right now over this issue.
But this is huge, bigger than you can imagine for ATL unless you know anything about that area. I lived there in the mid nineties and can tell you that the Braves owned that town and the Falcons were way behind back then in popularity before Vick arrived on the scene. But he single-handed turned everything around for the Falcons as far as fan support goes and is the greatest sports figure ever in ATL.
And as uncomfortable as it makes people feel and are reluctant to talk about it, racial division is the powerful fuel that is propelling this whole situation in ATL.
**
BTW, people wonder about the origion and history of dogfighting but don't know that such things were (and obviously still are to some extent) of the culture of the old South. Doesn't Bob McNair's alma mater call themselves the Gamecocks ?
"A cockfight is a blood sport between two specially trained roosters held in a ring called a cockpit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamecock
And I didn't say I approved of chickens fighting to the death, nor do I think chickens are the equivalent of dogs, anymore than dogs are equivalent to human beings.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 03:39 PM
this an mp3/podcast of Marcus Allen being interviewed by Herd on ESPN Radio. He had some really insightful things to say about the Vick situation and the whole 'gangsta' mentality amongst pro athletes today, specifically the NFL.

Allen has always been a pretty good guy and has seen his share of sports drama with the whole OJ thing a decade ago. If some of the young athletes would listen to some of the veterans, they could learn a lot.

http://podloc.andomedia.com/dloadTrack.mp3?prm=2125xhttp://espn-mp3-od.andomedia.com/espnpod2/espnradio/insider/herd/herd_07202007_6.mp3

Koolaid Time
07-20-2007, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE=Second Honeymoon;694641.... the NFL and the Falcons look like they are going to give Vick something similar to a paid 'leave of absence' until the courtcase is resolved. The league and the Falcons don't want Vick around this year and this plan saves face with both factions of fans both anti and pro-vick. [/quote]

Vick should get suspended.. without pay... because I see this coming...:

Yo....Roger Goodell....

How come your "Dog Boy" Vick gets paid while waiting trial... and I'm not getting anything while I'm sitting down waiting trial? Doesn't sounds fair to me. I'm taking the NFL to Court because some players seem more equal than others.

Love ya!

PacMan Joneshttp://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/images/smilies/01-noisycricket.gif
\

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 03:47 PM
And we thought David Carr was a polarizing figure here in Houston !
I suspect any sentiments stirred up by DC in Houston would represent relative apathy compared to the passion and intensity of feelings happening in ATL right now over this issue.
But this is huge, bigger than you can imagine for ATL unless you know anything about that area. I lived there in the mid nineties and can tell you that the Braves owned that town and the Falcons were way behind back then in popularity before Vick arrived on the scene. But he single-handed turned everything around for the Falcons as far as fan support goes and is the greatest sports figure ever in ATL.
And as uncomfortable as it makes people feel and are reluctant to talk about it, racial division is the powerful fuel that is propelling this whole situation in ATL.
**
BTW, people wonder about the origion and history of dogfighting but don't know that such things were (and obviously still are to some extent) of the culture of the old South. Doesn't Bob McNair's alma mater call themselves the Gamecocks ?
"A cockfight is a blood sport between two specially trained roosters held in a ring called a cockpit."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamecock
And I didn't say I approved of chickens fighting to the death, nor do I think chickens are the equivalent of dogs, anymore than dogs are equivalent to human beings.

That's essentially my whole problem with this case. It's OK to watch ESPN & spike TV or whatever & see guys sitting up in trees in camo shooting at Deer & Moose who are minding their own business. Or for one of our own presidents to go duck hunting shooting at ducks for sport or entertainment. That's all well and good & carries no jail time as long as you're "in season."

There's a double standard at work here & the same people wishing for all these bad things to happen to him b/c of his involvement in this are the same people who condone the above mentioned deadly sports & think that nothing is wrong with it.

Yes in the letter of the law, he is out right wrong but i feel if we're going to have all this outrage about what's happening to f$%#-ing dogs, then the same rule of thumb needs to be applied to all gods creatures.

TD
07-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Yeah, I think the Texans just got a 9th home game this season.

I'll be doing my part to make it feel like one. Been looking forward to this game for a long time. :texflag:

Porky
07-20-2007, 04:02 PM
[/B]

That's essentially my whole problem with this case. It's OK to watch ESPN & spike TV or whatever & see guys sitting up in trees in camo shooting at Deer & Moose who are minding their own business. Or for one of our own presidents to go duck hunting shooting at ducks for sport or entertainment. That's all well and good & carries no jail time as long as you're "in season."

There's a double standard at work here & the same people wishing for all these bad things to happen to him b/c of his involvement in this are the same people who condone the above mentioned deadly sports & think that nothing is wrong with it.

Yes in the letter of the law, he is out right wrong but i feel if we're going to have all this outrage about what's happening to f$%#-ing dogs, then the same rule of thumb needs to be applied to all gods creatures.

You gotta be kiddin. Wait, no your not. :crazy:

Errant Hothy
07-20-2007, 04:06 PM
[/B]

That's essentially my whole problem with this case. It's OK to watch ESPN & spike TV or whatever & see guys sitting up in trees in camo shooting at Deer & Moose who are minding their own business. Or for one of our own presidents to go duck hunting shooting at ducks for sport or entertainment. That's all well and good & carries no jail time as long as you're "in season."

There's a double standard at work here & the same people wishing for all these bad things to happen to him b/c of his involvement in this are the same people who condone the above mentioned deadly sports & think that nothing is wrong with it.

Yes in the letter of the law, he is out right wrong but i feel if we're going to have all this outrage about what's happening to f$%#-ing dogs, then the same rule of thumb needs to be applied to all gods creatures.

My only question is: are you a vegan or not?

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 04:09 PM
Vick should get suspended.. without pay... because I see this coming...:

Yo....Roger Goodell....

How come your "Dog Boy" Vick gets paid while waiting trial... and I'm not getting anything while I'm sitting down waiting trial? Doesn't sounds fair to me. I'm taking the NFL to Court because some players seem more equal than others.

Love ya!

PacMan Joneshttp://www.ncaabbs.com/forums/images/smilies/01-noisycricket.gif
\


i agree with you 100% for crying out loud, Pac Man's lawyer was just on NFL Live on ESPN saying the exact same thing. Double standard anyone?

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 04:10 PM
Joe Horn on NFL Live after the commercial break and he talked with Vick. Horn seems like an apologist but in his situation, you pretty much have to be till things play out.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 04:14 PM
[/B]

That's essentially my whole problem with this case. It's OK to watch ESPN & spike TV or whatever & see guys sitting up in trees in camo shooting at Deer & Moose who are minding their own business. Or for one of our own presidents to go duck hunting shooting at ducks for sport or entertainment. That's all well and good & carries no jail time as long as you're "in season."

There's a double standard at work here & the same people wishing for all these bad things to happen to him b/c of his involvement in this are the same people who condone the above mentioned deadly sports & think that nothing is wrong with it.

Yes in the letter of the law, he is out right wrong but i feel if we're going to have all this outrage about what's happening to f$%#-ing dogs, then the same rule of thumb needs to be applied to all gods creatures.

don't tell me your equating deer hunting with an illegal dog fighting ring and the training and the inhumane evil things that this entails.

i am not a hunter but its mostly done for sport and the meat that it produces. its just the food chain at work but instead of spears we have rifles. dog fighting is a different thing altogether and has no social redeeming quality whatsoever. then when you take into account that its illegal and totally immoral, then it further damns him.

just dont make the argument that the two are equitable because nothing could be farther from the truth....

if your looking for a parallel go with the fur industry or seal clubbing....not deer hunting

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 04:24 PM
The deer hunting argument / comparison is weak. I dont see owners of properties setting up rape stands for more deer reproduction. On the contrary, deer hunting is necessary for population control....

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:32 PM
don't tell me your equating deer hunting with an illegal dog fighting ring and the training and the inhumane evil things that this entails.

i am not a hunter but its mostly done for sport and the meat that it produces. its just the food chain at work but instead of spears we have rifles. dog fighting is a different thing altogether and has no social redeeming quality whatsoever. then when you take into account that its illegal and totally immoral, then it further damns him.

just dont make the argument that the two are equitable because nothing could be farther from the truth....

if your looking for a parallel go with the fur industry or seal clubbing....not deer hunting

Meat is not needed to survive guy, furthermore hunting/killing deer/duck or whatever for "sport" isn't a "social redeeming quality" either. & if it's just the the food chain at work, I guess you'd be ok with a homeless guy cooking up a black lab on the side of the freeway b/c he needs something to eat right?

Yeah, it's illegal & that's about all anyone can say about it, but don't give me this morals garbage about how watching dogs kill each for sport is any less moral than bringing an unsuspecting deer into your crossaires.

& no i'm not a vegan, which is why i could care less about dogs being killed in dog fights strictly for money & entertainment. I only brought it up b/c of the double standard of society.

Vinny
07-20-2007, 04:34 PM
The deer hunting argument / comparison is weak. I dont see owners of properties setting up rape stands for more deer reproduction. On the contrary, deer hunting is necessary for population control....
not since we covered that trapped deer in water and electrocuted him.

signed,
the vick apologist

Vinny
07-20-2007, 04:35 PM
Meat is not needed to survive guy, furthermore hunting/killing deer/duck or whatever for "sport" isn't a "social redeeming quality" either. ever hear of a little thing called the "food chain"? We've been eating critters since the start of time Pards. Where have you been?

Mr. White
07-20-2007, 04:37 PM
nevermind. already been said.

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:38 PM
not since we covered that trapped deer in water and electrocuted him.

signed,
the vick apologist

Oh, b/c we used painless bullets to kill deer & we only kill them if they wander into our scope range.

Yes, that was meant as sarcasm....

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:39 PM
ever hear of a little thing called the "food chain"? We've been eating critters since the start of time Pards. Where have you been?

**** & dogfighting have been going on forever to guy, sorry that argument won't fly either....

Vinny
07-20-2007, 04:40 PM
Oh, b/c we used painless bullets to kill deer & we only kill them if they wander into our scope range.

Yes, that was meant as sarcasm....

You know why I like to eat carrots? Because they don't cry when you kill them.

me wubs sarcasm :heart:

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:41 PM
You know why I like to eat carrots? Because they don't cry when you kill them.

me wubs sarcasm :heart:

You're a vegan Vinny?

eriadoc
07-20-2007, 04:41 PM
To borrow from Scripture (courtesy of another thread), Genesis 9:1-4 states:

Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.

Thanks, Aik ... http://www.texanstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=694202&postcount=10

Vinny
07-20-2007, 04:42 PM
**** & dogfighting have been going on forever to guy, sorry that argument won't fly either.... You claimed you weren't a vegan, so I'll clue you into something important. All that meat you eat daily doesn't die of old age somewhere. Talk about an argument that won't fly....the Wright Brothers wouldn't touch yours.

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:46 PM
You claimed you weren't a vegan, so I'll clue you into something important. All that meat you eat daily doesn't die of old age somewhere. Talk about an argument that won't fly....the Wright Brothers wouldn't touch yours.

Me being a vegan really has nothing to do with it.....

Dude, i'm merely flipping, you guys' *&^% back on ya. You ready? here goes

** People hunt for alot of the same reasons people engage in dog fighting, for sport & entertainment & there is no way any of you can completely justify why hunting is done.**

All together now.....

& for the guy who quoted scripture, should i bring the countless examples of terrorist & religious extremists who kill & do whatever in the name of god, or wait for you to get a little bit better footing?

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 04:51 PM
Dude, i'm merely flipping, you guys' *&^% back on ya. You ready? here goes

** People hunt for alot of the same reasons people engage in dog fighting, for sport & entertainment. **

All together now.....

Does dog meat taste good? Does Ookie eat what he kills? 'Cause venison certainly does.

For the record, I am against trophy hunting, BUT I am not against killing and grilling...

Chance_C
07-20-2007, 04:51 PM
Meat is not needed to survive guy, furthermore hunting/killing deer/duck or whatever for "sport" isn't a "social redeeming quality" either. & if it's just the the food chain at work, I guess you'd be ok with a homeless guy cooking up a black lab on the side of the freeway b/c he needs something to eat right?

Yeah, it's illegal & that's about all anyone can say about it, but don't give me this morals garbage about how watching dogs kill each for sport is any less moral than bringing an unsuspecting deer into your crossaires.

& no i'm not a vegan, which is why i could care less about dogs being killed in dog fights strictly for money & entertainment. I only brought it up b/c of the double standard of society.

So you eat steaks and chicken right? As Vinny so eloquently pointed out, they didn't die of old age. Shooting a deer with a rifle equatable to two dogs fighting to death....laughable.

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 04:54 PM
That's essentially my whole problem with this case. It's OK to watch ESPN & spike TV or whatever & see guys sitting up in trees in camo shooting at Deer & Moose who are minding their own business. Or for one of our own presidents to go duck hunting shooting at ducks for sport or entertainment. That's all well and good & carries no jail time as long as you're "in season."

This is a classic straw man argument. You are trying to justify a felony with legal activity. But it doesn't change the fact that what these guys do to dogs for a blood sport is against federal law.

But on the face of it, just compare the two activities: one is a blood sport that uses cruelty and brutality to perpetuate the participants involvement. The other serves a practical purpose as a food source, and, I should point out, hunters are some of the biggest conservationists around (btw, approx. 90% of Texas Parks and Wildlife budget is paid for with hunting/fishing licenses). Without hunters, the deer population would over-expand and we'd have a lot of starving deer on our hands.

How about we just let the crime stand on it's own without trying to morally equivocate it to something else? You lack any credibility trying to compare the two, and save for a few Vick lovers, nobody sees or agrees with your attempted point.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 04:56 PM
Genesis 9:1-4 states:

Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall on all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky, on every creature that moves along the ground, and on all the fish in the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it

Tex. You just got owned by the word of God. From the Book of Genesis no less. That kind of stuff doesn't happen everyday.

oh man, I lost so much respect for Joe Horn in his interview. He came off horrible and making excuses for Vick and claiming that Vick 'needs' football.

who cares what Vick needs? if he cared so much about football he wouldnt be involved in this evil and inhumane lifestyle.

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 04:57 PM
So you eat steaks and chicken right? As Vinny so eloquently pointed out, they didn't die of old age. Shooting a deer with a rifle equatable to two dogs fighting to death....laughable.

I don't see what's so laughable,
you guys are the ones acting like there was a reference to dog fighting in the commandments or something....


i can see it now,

& for the 11th commandment god said "thou shall not engage in dog fighting..." well maybe that's a little funny LOL.

Vinny
07-20-2007, 04:59 PM
I don't see what's so laughable,
you guys are the ones acting like there was a reference to dog fighting in the commandments or something....


i can see it now,

& for the 11th commandment god said "thou shall not engage in dog fighting..." LOL.
Too bad you had to show us who you really are...I must say that it's an ugly snapshot.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 04:59 PM
This is a classic straw man argument. You are trying to justify a felony with legal activity. But it doesn't change the fact that what these guys do to dogs for a blood sport is against federal law.

But on the face of it, just compare the two activities: one is a blood sport that uses cruelty and brutality to perpetuate the participants involvement. The other serves a practical purpose as a food source, and, I should point out, hunters are some of the biggest conservationists around (btw, approx. 90% of Texas Parks and Wildlife budget is paid for with hunting/fishing licenses). Without hunters, the deer population would over-expand and we'd have a lot of starving deer on our hands.

How about we just let the crime stand on it's own without trying to morally equivocate it to something else? You lack any credibility trying to compare the two, and save for a few Vick lovers, nobody sees or agrees with your attempted point.

Tex. You just got owned by Double Barrel. Not exactly God, but still pretty damning.

eriadoc
07-20-2007, 05:02 PM
& for the guy who quoted scripture, should i bring the countless examples of terrorist & religious extremists who kill & do whatever in the name of god, or wait for you to get a little bit better footing?

Bring in whatever you want; I don't rightly give a damn. Animals are here for people to do with as they will. Animal rights activists hate to hear that, but it's the truth. Society as a whole determines what is and is not acceptable behavior towards animals. Dogs get more rights than deer. Sucks to be a deer, oh well. Here's Carl Cohen's counterpoint presentation (http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~rebert/arlectures/media/index.php?f=2&v=cohen) of Tom Regan's case for animal rights. It illustrates very well why you and the other animal rights nut jobs are simply wrong.

Texan_Bill
07-20-2007, 05:02 PM
Try reading :

Texas Wildlife Association (http://www.texas-wildlife.org/)

Ducks Unlimited (http://www.ducks.org/)


I tried googling a site for dog fighting, much to my dismay I couldnt find any.. :hmmm:

Errant Hothy
07-20-2007, 05:02 PM
& no i'm not a vegan, which is why i could care less about dogs being killed in dog fights strictly for money & entertainment. I only brought it up b/c of the double standard of society.

So if your going to say a double standard exists between hunting and dog fighting, wouldn't one therefore exsist between dog fighting and animal slaugthering for food?

Contrary to what you may think most hunter's are responsible people, who a) eat or donate what they bring down and b) go way out of there way to reduce the suffering of the animals they bring down. Hunters do not kill if a animal performs poorly in a fight, not do they set-up rape stands...nervermind if you don't get this by now I can't explain in suffeciently enough for you to.:gun:

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 05:07 PM
If you're looking for an activity to compare it to, I'd say that the closest thing I can think of to dog fighting would be bull fighting. I'm not sure why 'civilized' countries like Spain still allow it to be honest. But it's illegal in the U.S., as well.

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 05:07 PM
Too bad you had to show us who you really are...I must say that it's an ugly snapshot.

Come on Vinny, did that really get under your skin that bad? For what it's worth I apologize to all, but come on man, the way you guys are vehemently defending a sport where the end result is the same as that of dog fighting is ridiculous imo.

Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Vick's gonna get what's coming to him, I promise you all (LOL) but to go on and on and on about how cruel dog fighting is when virtually the same crap is legal for deer,duck,dove or whatever sounds a bit hypocritical.

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 05:08 PM
i agree with you 100% for crying out loud, Pac Man's lawyer was just on NFL Live on ESPN saying the exact same thing. Double standard anyone?

And that's where today just goes right over the friggin edge. So far I've agreed with Hillary Clinton in one thread, PETA and Al Sharpton in another, and now I think that the lawyer for Pacman has a good point.

I'm going to go get a thermometer and check my temperature. I think I must be coming down with something.

Chance_C
07-20-2007, 05:09 PM
I don't see what's so laughable,
you guys are the ones acting like there was a reference to dog fighting in the commandments or something....

Sorry it's so hard to understand. I would try to spell it out for you, but actually it has been several times. Sometimes common sense or shall I say reality is really hard to grasp.

Try reading this one more time (thanks DB)

But on the face of it, just compare the two activities: one is a blood sport that uses cruelty and brutality to perpetuate the participants involvement. The other serves a practical purpose as a food source, and, I should point out, hunters are some of the biggest conservationists around (btw, approx. 90% of Texas Parks and Wildlife budget is paid for with hunting/fishing licenses). Without hunters, the deer population would over-expand and we'd have a lot of starving deer on our hands.

Ask the people in Austin, and Cape Royale right here on Lake Livingston about overcrowded deer populations.

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 05:15 PM
Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Dude, you're not getting it. The overwhelming majority of hunters are taught one shot to kill. There is no more cruelty involved than what they do at a slaughterhouse to thousands of cows every day. (Unless you are hardcore vegan, you have absolutely no moral authority when you let someone else deal with killing your food on your behalf.)

In case you really don't understand: hunters do not revel in the suffering of their prey. They do not inflict cruel and brutal actions on their prey. They do not do anything beyond what is required to kill the deer. What happens to it after that is to a dead animal carcass.

A blood sport, on the other hand, is based upon cruelty as entertainment. Beyond what they did to the dogs that won't fight, the sport itself is perpetuated for hours and hours, until the point that two very bloody and wounded dogs kills the other. And people enjoy it like we would enjoy a football game!

Can you honestly not see a difference? Or are you just being a troll to get a rise out of folks? It's one or the other...perhaps a third option would be that you just lack the mental capacity to understand the difference between legal hunting and illegal dog fighting.

Mr teX
07-20-2007, 05:15 PM
So if your going to say a double standard exists between hunting and dog fighting, wouldn't one therefore exsist between dog fighting and animal slaugthering for food?

Contrary to what you may think most hunter's are responsible people, who a) eat or donate what they bring down and b) go way out of there way to reduce the suffering of the animals they bring down. Hunters do not kill if a animal performs poorly in a fight, not do they set-up rape stands...nervermind if you don't get this by now I can't explain in suffeciently enough for you to.:gun:

So i take it you think folks like PETA & the like are nut jobs when they protest at slaughter houses & places like that huh?

It's OK that they're on Vicks' ass about his dog fighting ring b/c i don't like that, when they're protesting at these slaughterhouses its "you guys are crazy, we need that T-bone steak to survive, mankind depends on those short ribs!" give me a break.

I'm done with this, i see you guys when camp starts up.

Chance_C
07-20-2007, 05:16 PM
Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Well if said hunter donates his meat to the organization called "Hunter's for the Hungry" or even to a friend to eat then yes you sure can. I'm sure Mike Vick and his cohorts weren't delivering the dead dogs to the homeless man under the bridge that you referred to earlier. Once again, comparing hunting for food to killing dogs by means of electrocution, drowning, shooting, beating, or hanging is LAUGHABLE.

Chance_C
07-20-2007, 05:20 PM
So i take it you think folks like PETA & the like are nut jobs when they protest at slaughter houses & places like that huh?

They are nut jobs man. The problem is that several of us are agreeing with the nut jobs in the Vick case, and it becomes worrisome when you agree with nut jobs.

brakos82
07-20-2007, 05:23 PM
Houston Oilers... Houston Oilers... Houston Oilers #1! :)

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 05:23 PM
Come on Vinny, did that really get under your skin that bad? For what it's worth I apologize to all, but come on man, the way you guys are vehemently defending a sport where the end result is the same as that of dog fighting is ridiculous imo.

Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Vick's gonna get what's coming to him, I promise you all (LOL) but to go on and on and on about how cruel dog fighting is when virtually the same crap is legal for deer,duck,dove or whatever sounds a bit hypocritical.

The end result is not the same as dog fighting. It's nothing like the same as dog fighting. Nobody fights pit bulls for food. Hunting, even hunting for sport which I personally do not approve of results in somebody getting fed. If a hunter kills because he needs the meat to feed his family then his justification for killing animals is obvious. If he hunts because he simply enjoys eating deer, duck, etc; then his justification is no less valid. He's doing no worse than you are I do when we pull into a McDonalds and have ourselves a big fat cow sandwich.

A hunter who shoots a buck with an enormous rack and then cuts the deers head off, leaving the rest of the body to rot will be looked upon by his fellow hunters in much the same manner as somebody who enjoys watching a pair of dogs tear each other to pieces. He's simply a turd and that's all you can say about him. If Michael Vick proves to be guilty of this then he's a turd. If he proves to be guilty of this and someone wants to defend him then that person is in my eyes equally a turd.

Saying that deer hunting is virtually the same as dog fighting demonstrates either an enormous amount of ignorance about the two activities or it reveals a critical flaw in the makeup of the person who can't see the difference between the two.

whiskeyrbl
07-20-2007, 05:24 PM
Come on Vinny, did that really get under your skin that bad? For what it's worth I apologize to all, but come on man, the way you guys are vehemently defending a sport where the end result is the same as that of dog fighting is ridiculous imo.

Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Vick's gonna get what's coming to him, I promise you all (LOL) but to go on and on and on about how cruel dog fighting is when virtually the same crap is legal for deer,duck,dove or whatever sounds a bit hypocritical.

What I don't understand about your argument is your comparing an act of cruelty, to an act of hunting. I know many hunters who have Antlers on their wall. However they also keep the meat as a source of food. Hell my Uncle is a taxadermist. But to say that dog fighting is remotely the same is ludicrous.I don't know anyone personally that eats dog, do you? You could have a strange angle on this if you are a vegetarian, but still they are not the same in any shape or form.

Porky
07-20-2007, 05:25 PM
I said in my heart with regard to human beings that God is testing them to show that they are but animals. For the fate of humans and the fate of animals is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and humans have no advantage over the animals; for all is vanity. All go to one place; all are from the dust, and all turn to dust again.

ecclesiastes 3: 18-20

The wolf shall live with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the kid,
the calf and the lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play over the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put its hand on the adder’s den.

isaiah 11: 6-8

The righteous know the needs of their animals, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.

proverbs 12:10

brakos82
07-20-2007, 05:29 PM
Do I even exist here? :shades:

Hervoyel
07-20-2007, 05:29 PM
Do I even exist here? :shades:

Absolutely. I see you.

Double Barrel
07-20-2007, 07:19 PM
That's how Joe is. He's a good man with a good heart and won't speak out until facts proceed him. He is a team player and will stay reserved until there is something for him to fire off about.

He didn't seem so good today. He is another logic challenged individual that was comparing dog fighting to hunting. He was obviously grasping for straws to defend his buddy Vick. I thought he sounded like a moron and lost any respect I had for him after his interview. He even hinted at a racial element, which absolutely has no legs in this story when even Jesse and Al are speaking out against it.

It's one thing to say "no comment, I'm sticking with my friend". But quite another to bring straw man arguments to the table as a defense of a felony.

Khari
07-20-2007, 07:28 PM
Horn, Vick, Portis........hmm.........anyone else supporting this :bat:

Koolaid Time
07-20-2007, 08:43 PM
Direct your anger at the Dog Killer.. not at each other....

I'm going out to HUNT "Moose and Squirrel"....

http://www.crankycritic.com/archive00/posters/rockyandbullwinkle.jpg

Signed,

Boris

http://cartoonvillains.8m.com/images/maleimages/borisbadenov.gif

ccdude730
07-20-2007, 09:28 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiyXxsgP7Cw

a scene from one of my favorite movies...


note: im posting this just for laughs because it came to mind when i was reading through all this

Hardcore Texan
07-20-2007, 10:21 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiyXxsgP7Cw

a scene from one of my favorite movies...


note: im posting this just for laughs because it came to mind when i was reading through all this

Nice comic relief! That movie cracks me up. :shades:

kbourda
07-20-2007, 11:21 PM
This topic, situation, and thread is foolish. I see since everyone is quoting the Bible as the gospel should I also remind people that it was written that "Thou shall not kill". Last time I checked the Ten Commandments there weren't any asterisks giving special stipulations to dog fighters nor "licensed hunters " (lol). Everyone needs to calm down and let the process work. Look, at this point Vick has got to be the worst evaluator of the company that he keeps. He could be convicted, yes. But he could also be exonerated, by the courts, not of public opinion. All these protests, people wanting to give him the chair, et al........ Come on, get a life.

Speedy
07-20-2007, 11:31 PM
What you should be comparing dog fighting to is........oh man, I hesitate to mention it but here it goes.......cat juggling.

kbourda
07-20-2007, 11:34 PM
And I don't like the way Blank is handling his $90 million dollar THUG.

And while I don't buy Atlanta Falcons season tickets... I DO own Home Depot stock that I am selling tomorrow.. and I'm sending Mr. Blank a personal letter that says:

1. I am very disappointed with how you handled the Vick situation. If the NFL isn't going to suspend this lowlife, YOU should.

2. Blanks' handling of the Vick situation has a negative reflection on his other business enterprises, a/k/a "Home Depot"..

3. I'm selling my Home Depot stock, and I'm encouraging other stockholders to do likewise.

4. From now on, I'm buying my lumber and hardware at Lowe's.. for one reason alone....

LOEW'S DOESN'T EMPLOY DOG KILLERS...

ARTHUR BLANK DOES...

So you are going through all of that trouble for one person who allegedly fought and killed dogs. Not proven in a court of law but alleged. You know you sound like Mrs. Lanier when she was pressuring Bob McNair to draft Vince.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 11:34 PM
What you should be comparing dog fighting to is........oh man, I hesitate to mention it but here it goes.......cat juggling.

i had heard about that but thought it was just an urban myth.

well I don't need this stuff, and I don't need you. I don't need anything except this ashtray and that's it and that's the only thing I need, is this. I don't need this or this. Just this ashtray. And this paddle game, the ashtray and the paddle game and that's all I need. And this remote control. The ashtray, the paddle game, and the remote control, and that's all I need. And these matches. The ashtray, and these matches, and the remote control and the paddle ball. And this lamp. The ashtray, this paddle game and the remote control and the lamp and that's all I need. And that's all I need too. I don't need one other thing, not one - I need this! The paddle game, and the chair, and the remote control, and the matches, for sure. And this! And that's all I need. The ashtray, the remote control, the paddle game, this magazine and the chair.

Second Honeymoon
07-20-2007, 11:39 PM
So you are going through all of that trouble for one person who allegedly fought and killed dogs. Not proven in a court of law but alleged. You know you sound like Mrs. Lanier when she was pressuring Bob McNair to draft Vince.

Me thinks that wouldn't have been too bad.

I understand that he needs to be found guilty in law but the concrete facts (he owned the house) coupled with the testimony of an undercover federal agent pretty much dictate a swift move by the NFL. It's not Vick's right to be in the league. It's a private league and his behavior has already hurt the league more than could ever be estimated. He is guilty of not respecting the league and the privilege that it is to play in it.

he needs to go away for a while and fix his life and try and keep his arse out of prison. then he can worry about football. but I understand your point and agree with it on the legal side but as for his membership in the league, that is another matter. He needs to go until this mess is cleared up. It's dragging the league down into the sewer.

Vinny
07-20-2007, 11:50 PM
http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/animal_fighting/vick_indictment.pdf

Kaiser Toro
07-21-2007, 12:01 AM
Yikes! This probably does not have a happy ending. Vick needs to take a leave of absence.

Specnatz
07-21-2007, 12:02 AM
Come on Vinny, did that really get under your skin that bad? For what it's worth I apologize to all, but come on man, the way you guys are vehemently defending a sport where the end result is the same as that of dog fighting is ridiculous imo.

Yeah there are some people, who hunt b/c they need the meat & there are farms where chickens are bred exclusively for mass distribution & what not. But how can you justify the guys who hunts just to put those antlers on the wall? you can't man.

Vick's gonna get what's coming to him, I promise you all (LOL) but to go on and on and on about how cruel dog fighting is when virtually the same crap is legal for deer,duck,dove or whatever sounds a bit hypocritical.

I have been gone al day having one crappy day and I come home to read the boards, and I would have bet anyone on here a months salary that Tex would depfend vic. I bet you would not defend this if it was Carr. Vick McNabb yes, Carr Grossman NO and anyone care to guess why?

Yep I said it. To bad I called it like I see it.

I have hunted all kinds of birds and also have hunted deer. I have eaten everything I have killed while hunting. If some prick wants to hunt bear or lion and he is not doing it for food, then they can goto hell because they are wrong.

I have also eaten frog leggs, turtle soup, squrirrel, and countless of birds. Comparing hunting (for food) with dog fighting makes as much sense as some jackass saying if rape is enivitable just sit back and enjoy it (guess which moron said that line)!

So I am not being very pc here, but holy crap how in the hell can someone say things that are so far out in outerspace it is unreal.

Hunting for food is ok
Hunting for sport is wrong
Dog fighting is wrong

Get it
Got it
Good!!!!!

:bat:

Koolaid Time
07-21-2007, 12:03 AM
What you should be comparing dog fighting to is........oh man, I hesitate to mention it but here it goes.......cat juggling.

This isn't fun...

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/fa/Catjuggling.JPG

kbourda
07-21-2007, 12:03 AM
I understand that he needs to be found guilty in law but the concrete facts (he owned the house) coupled with the testimony of an undercover federal agent pretty much dictate a swift move by the NFL. It's not Vick's right to be in the league. It's a private league and his behavior has already hurt the league more than could ever be estimated. He is guilty of not respecting the league and the privilege that it is to play in it.

I think that is where most of the problem lies. Too often people equate a single person with a company, race, class, or whatever. Personally, Vick is his own man on an island all by himself. When I see the NFL I see the "Battle Red", the passion of the fans, the pure unadulterated ecstasy (So Al Davis for borrowing that last line) associated with it. I'm not going to let the actions of a single person's alleged suspect activity spoil that joy for me. Besides owning a house doesn't make you guilty. I know it may not be common for most people on this board but people do own property out of state. Besides it's not like Atlanta is around the corner from Virginia so I slight may believe that he may not have known about some of the activity there. But what do I know, i'm going off what I am told. As i'm sure most are doing as well but I tend to wait for the law to have their say first. I do not pass judgment on people based on popular opinion. I have my own mind.

Koolaid Time
07-21-2007, 12:10 AM
Comparing hunting (for food) with dog fighting makes as much sense as some jackass saying if rape is enivitable just sit back and enjoy it (guess which moron said that line)!

Clayton Williams.,,who blew a 10 point lead to Ma Richards in the last week before the election because of this joke.

And you know what.. its all his fault that we are stuck in Iraq...

Had he not told that joke, he would have been elected for probably 2 terms.... which means Jorge W. wouldn't have been Governor, which means......

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 12:48 AM
This topic, situation, and thread is foolish. I see since everyone is quoting the Bible as the gospel should I also remind people that it was written that "Thou shall not kill". Last time I checked the Ten Commandments there weren't any asterisks giving special stipulations to dog fighters nor "licensed hunters " (lol). Everyone needs to calm down and let the process work. Look, at this point Vick has got to be the worst evaluator of the company that he keeps. He could be convicted, yes. But he could also be exonerated, by the courts, not of public opinion. All these protests, people wanting to give him the chair, et al........ Come on, get a life.

Contrary to popular belief that you can "indict a ham sandwich", in the federal court in which Vick will be tried they have a 99% conviction rate of indicted felons. 99%, that's nothing to sneeze at, these people do not indict on flimsy evidence, they have their ducks in a row and all facing the same direction. I think some of Vicks "Buds" and cousins are turning states evidence on him.

Let's look at some of the things we do know about Vick, He's from Virginia, he used the signing bonus for when he became a Falcon to buy this house. He BUILT the out buildings in which dogs are trained and fought and painted all the buildings black. There are bones of dead dogs buried there. There is a pit for fighting and blood all over the place. Vick is known to be a frequent visitor and informants say he is a big man in the dog fighting world, a "money man" if you will.

In this VERY Big expensive house live Vicks friends and cousins who are on public assistance, who pays the bills? You can't live in a house like that on welfare. Vick is known for his poor decision making processes on and off the field, we have the "Ron Mexico" incident, the bottle incident in the airport, the "flipping off the fans on national tv" incident and the not showing up when he was supposed to visit congress. Vicks parents had him when they were teenagers and he rarely saw or spent time with his father, the guy had no guidance growing up, he and his brother both are lacking in moral character.

Read the 18 page indictment (http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/animal_fighting/vick_indictment.pdf) of Vick and it will make you sick to your stomach. Yes, he deserves his day in court but he does not deserve to play anymore in the NFL. He's had one chance too many. I spent the first two or three years Vick was a Falcon defending him against friends of mine who said he would never be a quality quarter back in the NFL because a) he wasn't smart enough and b) he was a thug and would find a way to screw things up. Well they were right and I was wrong. Michael Vick is an embarrasment to this City and to the Falcons and to the NFL. He should step down or be suspended pending the outcome of his trial, at this point he is nothing but a distraction to the team. It's going to be a media circus down here when the Falcons begin practice with all the protestors demanding his suspension and all the media attention.

I'm late getting in to this thread so I don't know what the reference to people wanting Vick to get the "chair" is all about, I certainly don't think he should be executed but he should step down until this situation passes and if he is convicted he should never play in the NFL again and if he pleads out he also should still never play in the NFL again, he should spend the rest of his days on earth cleaning out the cages at the local animal shelter.

I'm not a "PETA" type person, I love animals but I'm not an activist. But I think anyone who can abuse an innocent animal like Vick is accused of doing is has deep psychological problems and probably is capable of extreme violence to people as well. You can't have a conscious at all and do those things. Hang dogs, wet dogs and electocute them and beat them to death, not to mention the fights themselves and the cruelty involved there. You can't have your head screwed on straight and do those things.

cuppacoffee
07-21-2007, 10:13 AM
Meat is not needed to survive guy, furthermore hunting/killing deer/duck or whatever for "sport" isn't a "social redeeming quality" either. & if it's just the the food chain at work, I guess you'd be ok with a homeless guy cooking up a black lab on the side of the freeway b/c he needs something to eat right?
Yeah, it's illegal & that's about all anyone can say about it, but don't give me this morals garbage about how watching dogs kill each for sport is any less moral than bringing an unsuspecting deer into your crossaires.

& no i'm not a vegan, which is why i could care less about dogs being killed in dog fights strictly for money & entertainment. I only brought it up b/c of the double standard of society.


I have been told that there is nothing illegal about killing a dog for food.

Killing a dog for food is not considered inhumane.

I've also been told that certain cultures in the US still do this.

Me?....I'll stick with a good steak.

It is illegal to train dogs to fight each other while making bets on the outcome.

It is also illegal not to report any winnings on these bets as income.

Bank robbery is illegal. Guess I shouldn't care if it isn't my bank, doesn't affect me?

As long as we are a country of laws, they must/should be enforced.

Nowhere does it say we have to agree with the laws before obeying them.

Vick is not accused of having bad morals...he is accused of breaking the law.

I know..he hasn't been convicted ..yet.

Life is full of double standards, (opinions in disguise).. but that doesn't change the facts when laws are broken.

:coffee:

2BCF
07-21-2007, 10:35 AM
Well, the sympathizers for Vick have said it's cultural.
Perhaps then it's time for some good ole southern cultural justice.

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 11:13 AM
This is a classic straw man argument. You are trying to justify a felony with legal activity.

That's only half of his straw man, what he's trying to do is say that it is hypocritical morally to support killing of game animals on one hand and to not support fighting dogs on the other hand. It's a totally specious argument lacking in any logical thought or moral foundation whatsoever. It is an argument of desperation made only by those trying to support an unsuppportable position but it has the advantage of being unanswerable with logic in the same way it is impossible to answer the question, "Have you stopped beating your wife". Because once you make a statement based upon a false premise and lacking in logic you are free, once having travelled down that road, to continue on making no sense whatever.
:user:

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 11:21 AM
Read the 18 page indictment (http://www.hsus.org/web-files/PDF/animal_fighting/vick_indictment.pdf) of Vick and it will make you sick to your stomach.

Thanks for providing the link Vinny, it was late and I didn't have time to look for it.

For anyone who missed it the first time ^there it is again^. For those with weak stomachs do not eat for two hours before or after reading please unless you have a barf bag close at hand. :tearup: :shocked

Vinny
07-21-2007, 11:44 AM
Dogfighting is as cultural to the south as holding slaves. This isn't "culture". This is an illegal activity. It's sad that people line up to throw out excuses for their favorite players even when their activities are repulsive.

cuppacoffee
07-21-2007, 12:34 PM
On a lighter note.

I need clarification:

Can I still take live crawfish and throw them into a big pot of boiling seasoned water loaded with potatoes, onions, mushrooms and corn on the cob.....idonno:

Remember now. I'm a coon*** and it's a cultural thing...:D



:coffee: (seaport dark roast..please)

Vinny
07-21-2007, 12:39 PM
not a direct statement to you Elle...just an overview as to the "cultural" thing imo. I know he isn't your fav player.

Specnatz
07-21-2007, 12:47 PM
On a lighter note.

I need clarification:

Can I still take live crawfish and throw them into a big pot of boiling seasoned water loaded with potatoes, onions, mushrooms and corn on the cob.....idonno:

Remember now. I'm a coon*** and it's a cultural thing...:D



:coffee: (seaport dark roast..please)

I would be worried if you did not do that.

The Pencil Neck
07-21-2007, 12:52 PM
On a lighter note.

I need clarification:

Can I still take live crawfish and throw them into a big pot of boiling seasoned water loaded with potatoes, onions, mushrooms and corn on the cob.....idonno:

Remember now. I'm a coon*** and it's a cultural thing...:D



:coffee: (seaport dark roast..please)

You can do that because it's quick and virtually painless death. But you can't train them to fight each other to the death, strap them to a rape stand, and then slowly turn the heat up to a boil. That would be all kinds of wrong.

Double Barrel
07-21-2007, 01:10 PM
Rome had a good point about killing the dogs. If you have to go Old Yeller on them, then do it as quick and humanely possible with a bullet to the head.

And this is the crux of the biscuit; There is a brutality to the way these dogs were treated, the choice to deal torture on them, and the sick way that it seems to be entertaining to the these men.

There is something very twisted...dare I say evil...about choosing to inflict pain on another living being against it's will and for the sole purpose of pleasure to the perpetuator. I think this is the element that truly grabs your soul about this story and demands justice and retribution.

The Pencil Neck
07-21-2007, 01:17 PM
Rome had a good point about killing the dogs. If you have to go Old Yeller on them, then do it as quick and humanely possible with a bullet to the head.

And this is the crux of the biscuit; There is a brutality to the way these dogs were treated, the choice to deal torture on them, and the sick way that it seems to be entertaining to the these men.

There is something very twisted...dare I say evil...about choosing to inflict pain on another living being against it's will and for the sole purpose of pleasure to the perpetuator. I think this is the element that truly grabs your soul about this story and demands justice and retribution.

You must spread some reputation around before...

HJam72
07-21-2007, 01:19 PM
The next question is: Can we throw a dog into a very large pot of soup?

I'm gonna have to say no, unless we give them painkillers and some kind of oxygen mask for dogs. Uh, it might taste a little hairy though.

SheTexan
07-21-2007, 01:21 PM
Rome had a good point about killing the dogs. If you have to go Old Yeller on them, then do it as quick and humanely possible with a bullet to the head.

And this is the crux of the biscuit; There is a brutality to the way these dogs were treated, the choice to deal torture on them, and the sick way that it seems to be entertaining to the these men.

There is something very twisted...dare I say evil...about choosing to inflict pain on another living being against it's will and for the sole purpose of pleasure to the perpetuator. I think this is the element that truly grabs your soul about this story and demands justice and retribution.


BINGO DB!!

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 02:51 PM
No, no. You misunderstand why I posted that. I'm not defending Vick so much as I'm talking about regional things that folks in the U.S. of A. do and accept. That's why I mention having multiple wives. That's totally unacceptable. So is turtle soup. So is escargot and caviar, yet it's ok to those who grew up with those things.

No, Vick isn't my favorite NFL player. Tiki Barber was, now I guess I'm tied between Joe Horn and Mike McKenzie. It's gonna suck having to see them play twice this year. Will Joe be healthy and faster? Will Mike become more focused? Will Mike beat his mentor or will the heart that beat for the both of them outrun his student?


Don't know how you go from Tiki Barber a totally quality person, to Joe Horn who said on a local radio station recently that he would want his children to grow up just like Michael Vick. Heard it with my own two ears.

edit: Afraid I have some bad news for you Elle,
" Horn's brother Darian works as an assistant to Vice President Dick Cheney. " Wikipedia on Joe Horn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn)

brakos82
07-21-2007, 03:02 PM
You must spread some reputation around before...

I did it for you :cool:

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 03:22 PM
Dogfighting is as cultural to the south as holding slaves. This isn't "culture". This is an illegal activity. It's sad that people line up to throw out excuses for their favorite players even when their activities are repulsive.

Exactly, I've lived in the south here in Georgia all my life and I know of a lot of things that are considered "Southern culture", but I wouldn't say one of them is dog fighting. I might accept that dog fighting is "prevalent" in the south but cultural suggests a much broader acceptance and participation. I don't think dog fighting is either accepted on a wide basis or participated in here in any broad sense. I've moved in and out of just about every racial and financial class through out my life and never encountered dog fighting. I have known a few who enjoy **** fighting which I also think is cruel and barbaric, but not dog fighting.

Since dog fighting is a felony in 47 states as well as the District of Colombia, the Virgin Islands, and Puerto Rico I think it has been fairly well spread around the country and not just in the south .

Red_Zone
07-21-2007, 03:29 PM
To further my point about culture (and Vinny's);

The culture of dogfighting is as diverse as America itself. Dogfighters come from virtually all walks of life and engage in the blood sport at vastly different levels. Some fighters operate on a national or even international level within highly clandestine networks. These fighters are professionals that breed generations of skilled “game dogs," take a great deal of pride in the lineage of their dogs and charge tremendous stud fees to breed their champions. They publish trade journals for distribution to dogfighting enthusiasts around the world.[26] The journals, with names like Your Friend and Mine, Game Dog Times, The American Warrior, and The Pit Bull Chronicle, include information on recent fights including the winners and losers, and advertisements for training equipment and puppies. [27] One of the largest and most widely recognized, The Sporting Dog Journal, circulates over 10,000 copies worldwide.[28] Because the professional fighters are so geographically dispersed, they also utilize the internet to communicate with one another. The “cyber-dogmen” maintain websites that to the untrained eye appear to be networks of breeders or “game dog” fanciers. They often go so far as to publish legal disclaimers on the websites, maintaining that they do not condone dogfighting and the information should be “viewed as fiction” and utilized “for entertainment purposes only.”[29] The websites typically include specific information on the lineage of the dogs, historic accounts of dog-fighting that glorify anonymous, deceased, or ‘retired’ dog-men, and message boards for enthusiasts to discuss everything from buying and training champion fighting dogs to veterinary tips on treating wounded dogs.[30] Professional fighters are wealthy and experienced, often investing thousands of dollars on buying and training their dogs, and on transport to the fight venues. [31] The fights are extremely well organized and difficult for law enforcement to find.[32] Participants and spectators are often not told where the venues are until moments before the fight. “Gaining access to these circles is extremely hard,” says Eric Sakach, Director of the West Coast Regional Office of the Humane Society of the United States.[33]Link (http://www.animallaw.info/articles/ddusdogfighting.htm)

Brando
07-21-2007, 05:10 PM
Wonder if this dog was part of the "game" or was a "real" pet.

http://thesportsguys.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/michaelvickdog.jpg

Mr teX
07-21-2007, 05:18 PM
I have been gone al day having one crappy day and I come home to read the boards, and I would have bet anyone on here a months salary that Tex would depfend vic. I bet you would not defend this if it was Carr. Vick McNabb yes, Carr Grossman NO and anyone care to guess why?

Yep I said it. To bad I called it like I see it.

I have hunted all kinds of birds and also have hunted deer. I have eaten everything I have killed while hunting. If some prick wants to hunt bear or lion and he is not doing it for food, then they can goto hell because they are wrong.

I have also eaten frog leggs, turtle soup, squrirrel, and countless of birds. Comparing hunting (for food) with dog fighting makes as much sense as some jackass saying if rape is enivitable just sit back and enjoy it (guess which moron said that line)!

So I am not being very pc here, but holy crap how in the hell can someone say things that are so far out in outerspace it is unreal.

Hunting for food is ok
Hunting for sport is wrong
Dog fighting is wrong

Get it
Got it
Good!!!!!

:bat:

First of all, i'm not defending vick, like all of the sports radio & tv pundits, he's at least a moron for not knowing what was going on on his property.

Secondly, I don't know where you stay or how you live your life so maybe going out to hunt for food is what has to be done on a regular basis for you & your family; Some people still choose to live that way. But again like i told the others, you are going to have a very difficult time convincing me that the average middle american who lives within the city limits, goes hunting strictly for food.

Not when he/she essentially doesn't have to since he/she lives within at least 2 miles of a grocery store or a butcher's shop & not when this crap is being glorified on cable television. Furthermore, you don't need meat to survive, much less venison or veal or whatever it's called.


Some of these guys make the mistake & think that just b/c i don't shed a tear or feel in some way compassionate about what happens to these dogs in dog fighting that i am condoning it, & nothing could be further from the truth. I've admitted i'm not a vegan, i eat meat like nobody's business, & with the luxury of eating all these great choice meats i realize that theres an ugly side that also comes with the killing of these animals. But to act like there is absolutely no parallel to deer hunting & dog fighting for the sake of entertainment is ridiculous. Hell we already have various animals rounded up on farms & slaughterhouses to satisfy our need for meat, why does deer/duck have to be another? Why do the overwhelming majority of hunters go to the deers home & hunt them?

& yeah, hunters aim for a 1 shot kill, but dead is dead regardless.

No one wants to answer those questions, they only want to say "well at least some good is coming from it b/c people eat the meat" which doesn't entirely justify it IMO b/c of what i said above in my post.

Specnatz
07-21-2007, 06:04 PM
First of all, i'm not defending vick, like all of the sports radio & tv pundits, he's at least a moron for not knowing what was going on on his property.

Secondly, I don't know where you stay or how you live your life so maybe going out to hunt for food is what has to be done on a regular basis for you & your family; Some people still choose to live that way. But again like i told the others, you are going to have a very difficult time convincing me that the average middle american who lives within the city limits, goes hunting strictly for food.

Not when he/she essentially doesn't have to since he/she lives within at least 2 miles of a grocery store or a butcher's shop & not when this crap is being glorified on cable television. Furthermore, you don't need meat to survive, much less venison or veal or whatever it's called.


Some of these guys make the mistake & think that just b/c i don't shed a tear or feel in some way compassionate about what happens to these dogs in dog fighting that i am condoning it, & nothing could be further from the truth. I've admitted i'm not a vegan, i eat meat like nobody's business, & with the luxury of eating all these great choice meats i realize that theres an ugly side that also comes with the killing of these animals. But to act like there is absolutely no parallel to deer hunting & dog fighting for the sake of entertainment is ridiculous. Hell we already have various animals rounded up on farms & slaughterhouses to satisfy our need for meat, why does deer/duck have to be another? Why do the overwhelming majority of hunters go to the deers home & hunt them?
& yeah, hunters aim for a 1 shot kill, but dead is dead regardless.

No one wants to answer those questions, they only want to say "well at least some good is coming from it b/c people eat the meat" which doesn't entirely justify it IMO b/c of what i said above in my post.


So I should not hunt because they sell it in a gorcery store or a butcher shop? I am sure deer or hogs just walk into a butcher shop on a daily basis and they are not hunted for food or killed for the meat. Your right I do not need venison or fish or pheasant to survive and you do not an mp3 player or a color tv. But if it is what you like then you have to go out and get it. Yes there are cows and pigs raised for food, but they taste completely different than venison. Besides if no one hunted them they would destroy another part of the eco system if they grew to an over population. So hunting them helps the enviroment.

There are hunting shows because people watch and learn what other hunters do so they can better perform. Comparing hunting deer to dog fighting is kinda funny to me. You are comparing an illeagal activity with a legal one.

As far as why hunters go to where the deer live to hunt them, well that is easy. Because they would not be able to kill a deer standing on Congress Ave in downtown Houston. If deer came to the hunters then it would not be called hunting.

It is not about justifying or saying at least some good is coming out of the kill. Hunting should only be about killing for the sake of either providing food or protecting oneself. The same with fishing, I do not fish just to catch and release I keep what I catch and cook it.

From your previous comments I took it as you defending vick. But you are sure wanting to deflect what he did onto something that is not relavent. Mentioning something completely different does nothing for the case at hand.


Stay on point.

Mr teX
07-21-2007, 08:20 PM
[QUOTE=Specnatz;695166]So I should not hunt because they sell it in a gorcery store or a butcher shop? I am sure deer or hogs just walk into a butcher shop on a daily basis and they are not hunted for food or killed for the meat. Your right I do not need venison or fish or pheasant to survive and you do not an mp3 player or a color tv. But if it is what you like then you have to go out and get it. Yes there are cows and pigs raised for food, but they taste completely different than venison. Besides if no one hunted them they would destroy another part of the eco system if they grew to an over population. So hunting them helps the enviroment.

There are hunting shows because people watch and learn what other hunters do so they can better perform. Comparing hunting deer to dog fighting is kinda funny to me. You are comparing an illeagal activity with a legal one.

As far as why hunters go to where the deer live to hunt them, well that is easy. Because they would not be able to kill a deer standing on Congress Ave in downtown Houston. If deer came to the hunters then it would not be called hunting.

It is not about justifying or saying at least some good is coming out of the kill. Hunting should only be about killing for the sake of either providing food or protecting oneself. The same with fishing, I do not fish just to catch and release I keep what I catch and cook it.

From your previous comments I took it as you defending vick. But you are sure wanting to deflect what he did onto something that is not relavent. Mentioning something completely different does nothing for the case at hand.

The fact of the matter is, it is relatively unecessary blood shed for whatever reason whether that be for entertainment, sport, money or as you simply just stated above, b/c you just want the choice venison meat. The majority of hunters go hunt b/c they enjoy it not b/c they "need" the meat.


Is dog fighting a heck of alot more cruel than hunting? of course it is, If anything you guys have made that ABUNDANTLY clear but to me, that's like saying serial killer A is alot more demented than serial killer B b/c he didn't torture his victims before he killed them. So what he still killed them! Again, death is death regardless of the good "will" or "intentions" of the hunter. You guys fail to see that b/c you think that i'm attacking you as a person just b/c you might like to hunt or that you love dogs.

Dogs, deer, rabbit whatever they are all just animals to me & i would feel just the same way if Vick had been found to have been running a frickin turtle fighting ring.

StarStruck
07-22-2007, 12:08 AM
On a lighter note.

I need clarification:

Can I still take live crawfish and throw them into a big pot of boiling seasoned water loaded with potatoes, onions, mushrooms and corn on the cob.....idonno:

Remember now. I'm a coon*** and it's a cultural thing...:D



:coffee: (seaport dark roast..please)

How could a person take live crawfish, and first throw salt of all things on them, and after then kick from the burns, add insult to injury by throwing them in a pot of boiling water with more hot seasoning. Oh, yea, if the tails don't curl, they aren't fit to eat. After all of that, people gather and celebrate as they peel the tail and suck the head. WOW! Pass the bucket!

On a more serious note, I will reserve comments about Vick directly until the legal process plays out. However, I don't understand the excitement or sport in watching dogs or anything else for that matter fight until mutilation or death. In fact, even though I have watched boxing, but as a spectator, have never been able to personally appreaciate the sport as the box office or fans have embraced.

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 02:13 AM
How could a person take live crawfish, and first throw salt of all things on them, and after then kick from the burns, add insult to injury by throwing them in a pot of boiling water with more hot seasoning. Oh, yea, if the tails don't curl, they aren't fit to eat. After all of that, people gather and celebrate as they peel the tail and suck the head. WOW! Pass the bucket!

On a more serious note, I will reserve comments about Vick directly until the legal process plays out. However, I don't understand the excitement or sport in watching dogs or anything else for that matter fight until mutilation or death. In fact, even though I have watched boxing, but as a spectator, have never been able to personally appreaciate the sport as the box office or fans have embraced.

At least in boxing the competitors have a choice as to whether they want to participate if they want to and no one pours water on them and electocutes them if they lose or perform badly.

StarStruck
07-22-2007, 02:29 AM
At least in boxing the competitors have a choice as to whether they want to participate if they want to and no one pours water on them and electocutes them if they lose or perform badly.

True, but it's still a very brutal "sport." I recall when Mohammed Ali was drop dead gorgeous, very mobile, quick wit and extremely talkative.

Señor Stan
07-22-2007, 08:23 AM
This topic, situation, and thread is foolish. I see since everyone is quoting the Bible as the gospel should I also remind people that it was written that "Thou shall not kill". Last time I checked the Ten Commandments there weren't any asterisks giving special stipulations to dog fighters nor "licensed hunters " (lol). Everyone needs to calm down and let the process work. Look, at this point Vick has got to be the worst evaluator of the company that he keeps. He could be convicted, yes. But he could also be exonerated, by the courts, not of public opinion. All these protests, people wanting to give him the chair, et al........ Come on, get a life.

Probably more fitting for the another forum but I can't let this one go unanswered...

The commandment is refering to the murder of a person, not the killing of animals.

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 03:32 PM
I learned about Joe Horn from the best source....himself. In 2005, he carried his team very well, and I found him to be a very nice person. Don't know what to say about the comment he made about his kids....and I didn't know about his brother. His brother should be shot.

I couldn't resist yanking your chain a bit about Horn and his brother. There's no question he's a talented athlete, so is Vick. But what concerns me is the ability of these guys to make quality life decisions. Horn is a very new Atlanta Falcon and I'm sure he wants to play ball with Vick, we'd all love to have seen this but we must draw the line somewhere. Horn is what we call an "enabler", he is the type person evidently that morals and character don't mean a whole lot to as long as he gets what he wants. Evidently he'd say anything in defense of Vick if he thought it would help his team mate and get them back to "normal". It's not gonna work, enablers never help they only aggravate the prpoblem and postpone the inevitable.

There was a big article in the Atlanta paper here yesterday that revealed a lot about Vicks past activities which evidently go far beyond what has been widely reported on. For instance during the bottle incident at the airport one of his buddies stole a watch from a security officer. Vick promised to make good on the watch but never did. Vick loaned his vehicle to two friends who got caught with drugs in the vehicle. Vick refuses to distance himself from his thug past and drug dealing homies and he involves himself in one of the most violent and cruel sports one can imagine. Vick doesn't deserve to be an NFL player and if Horn doesn't shut the heck up soon he's going to make a complete fool of himself.

I'm sorry for you that one of your sports heroes turned out to be of such low character where the rubber meets the road.




Last year, my neighbors rented their home to a family with 2 pitbulls, both female. The younger one was pretty much killed by the older one right in front of about 10 of us. Out of nowhewre the attack came and it was horrid. Still very vivid in my head. There was no stopping that dog once she went nuts. 3 adults in their yard tried to break it up and then once it was over, my sister and I called our vet at home for him to open his office. His wife is the vet surgeon of the pair, but they couldn't save the dog. The next day, the animal control people took the other one and she was also put down. It is beyond me that anyone would pay to see that.

Hell, the most brutality I can handle is football and Lifetime Movies.

Pit bulls as a breed are so inbred that they are dangerous to be around for anyone. They will turn on you I don't care if they've been a beloved family pet for many years. They should be banned from city and urban dwellings all together. Anyone owning one should be held to account for any violence done by their dogs. Frankly it wouldn't bother me if they were all humanely euthanised and done away with entirely.Hardly a week goes by that we don't hear some horror story involving a Pit Bull and a small child or senior citizen. Let the hip hop nation find a new mascot, these dogs need to be outlawed.

Specnatz
07-22-2007, 04:24 PM
Calssifying any animal based on breed is not right. You just put all pit-bulls into one lump some. I have owned a pit and it was a very sweet and lovable dog. Sensationalism in journalism is rampant so you get you info that makes headlines not from actual research, and you want them destroyed. This has been done with the human race as well, lack of education rearing its head yet again.

It would not make the news if a poodle attacked someone but it would if a pit did.

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 07:04 PM
I wouldn't call Joe an enabler. Really, if you met him, you'd understand my POV a bit better. When they were here, I asked a player for a keepsake. He apologized and refused because he was giving it to Joe. Joe kept him centered during a really bad time. I have a video of Joe talking this particular player out of a really bad spot during a game. It has audio on it. I didn't hear what he's said about Vick, and can't comment unless I actually hear it or see a verified transcript. It;s not that I don't believe you. I would just need to hear what you did in order to comment further.

I had hoped that, as athletes, Horn and Vick could have played together. Catching passes from NFL QB cousins is rare.

You know how I am regarding a Saint.;)

And I agree about pit bulls. There is at least one incident per month in SA where one went nuts.


I know Horn was a Saint before coming here but I don't know a lot about him other than reading his bio (which is impressive admittedly). I haven't watched him play much, so I'm judging him based on what I've heard in interviews lately on ESPN radio here in Atlanta. I would like your opinion on what he said so below is a link to the audio of the interview I mentioned where Horn says he wants his kids to emulate Mike Vick and use him as a role model. It's near the end of the interview though because the talk to Joe about other stuff. On my computer the link open in itunes so if you have that you should be able to listen, if you don't I'm not sure.

Buck and Kincade w/Falcons Wide Receiver Joe Horn Audio (http://www.680thefan.com/audio/joehorn_bnk.mp3)

The guy asking most of the questions is John Kincade Sports talk host of a daily sports talk broadcast he does with former Georgia Bulldog Quarterback Buck Belew (sp?).

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 07:09 PM
Calssifying any animal based on breed is not right. You just put all pit-bulls into one lump some. I have owned a pit and it was a very sweet and lovable dog. Sensationalism in journalism is rampant so you get you info that makes headlines not from actual research, and you want them destroyed. This has been done with the human race as well, lack of education rearing its head yet again.

It would not make the news if a poodle attacked someone but it would if a pit did.


I guarantee you it would make news if a poodle attacked someone because it would be very unusual for that to happen. You hear about Pits a lot because a lot of Pits attack people and children, it happens almost every day and many times it is that "Sweet" family pet everyone said would never hurt a fly that goes bonkers and kills someones five year old daughter or grandaughter or next door neighbor. Anyone who owns a pit is playing with fire and you are gambling your families lives on a dog with a killer gene.

Hervoyel
07-22-2007, 07:35 PM
This isn't fun...

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/f/fa/Catjuggling.JPG

Ok, just got to let you know that I came very close to removing this. I debated for a long time about it and eventually chose to let it stay based on your excellent past behavior.

You're walking a fine line there Koolaid so be careful. Many of our younger, more sensitive members might be irreparably harmed by images of cat juggling so don't add to this already dangerous and controversial subject.


This is a family board. We don't want to be seen as endorsing or promoting this "activity".

Hervoyel
07-22-2007, 07:38 PM
Dogfighting is as cultural to the south as holding slaves. This isn't "culture". This is an illegal activity. It's sad that people line up to throw out excuses for their favorite players even when their activities are repulsive.

I think it's a fine line (very much splitting hairs here) but in the end I think this is "cultural". I think it's just hard for a lot of people to go ahead and say that some things that are "cultural" need to go out with the trash. It's not popular but it's true. There's a reason why some cultures need to go and not every culture is equal or has equal merit. Sometimes it's time for some cultural activities to die.

Saying something is part of "our" culture doesn't mean it gets a free pass or we should all look the other way. At least it shouldn't. The people throwing that up as a defense for this kind of thing need to learn that.

Hervoyel
07-22-2007, 07:54 PM
Pit bulls as a breed are so inbred that they are dangerous to be around for anyone. They will turn on you I don't care if they've been a beloved family pet for many years. They should be banned from city and urban dwellings all together. Anyone owning one should be held to account for any violence done by their dogs. Frankly it wouldn't bother me if they were all humanely euthanised and done away with entirely.Hardly a week goes by that we don't hear some horror story involving a Pit Bull and a small child or senior citizen. Let the hip hop nation find a new mascot, these dogs need to be outlawed.

Minor point, the "inbreeding" isn't the problem. Inbreeding to different degrees is very common in most breeds. In fact it's used sparingly at specific moments to "lock in" characteristics that breeders want.

The problem is that with Put Bulls (and they are not a breed because they do not "breed true") the predominant traits that they are bred for are an aggressive fighting temperament and physical strength. That's it. The reason they don't breed true is that physical appearance is secondary or irrelevant to most breeders. From the very beginning the American Pit Bull was intended to be a fighting dog made from the best fighting dogs of the time.

The reason they're so unpredictable is that regardless of who you got your Pit Bull from or how gentle your Pit Bull is there are countless aggressive and honestly unstable dogs "behind it" in it's pedigree. Most people just don't seem to understand that it can go off eventually and if it does then all the petting and dog treats and love in the world isn't going to make any difference. You, or your child, or somebody who just happens to be in the wrong place that day is going to get mauled.

But the inbreeding isn't the real cause. Stupid breeders over inbreeding heavily will give the "breed" health problems over time but that's about it. Everything else in your post nailed it though..

Second Honeymoon
07-22-2007, 08:30 PM
Pit Bulls suck
Michael Vick sucks
Rationalizing criminal behavior and blaming it on someone's culture or racial makeup sucks
Joe Horn's comment about wanting his kids to grow up to be like Michael Vick sucks
Vick playing in the NFL this season would suck

Texans Rule

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 08:56 PM
Minor point, the "inbreeding" isn't the problem. Inbreeding to different degrees is very common in most breeds. In fact it's used sparingly at specific moments to "lock in" characteristics that breeders want.

The problem is that with Put Bulls (and they are not a breed because they do not "breed true") the predominant traits that they are bred for are an aggressive fighting temperament and physical strength. That's it. The reason they don't breed true is that physical appearance is secondary or irrelevant to most breeders. From the very beginning the American Pit Bull was intended to be a fighting dog made from the best fighting dogs of the time.

The reason they're so unpredictable is that regardless of who you got your Pit Bull from or how gentle your Pit Bull is there are countless aggressive and honestly unstable dogs "behind it" in it's pedigree. Most people just don't seem to understand that it can go off eventually and if it does then all the petting and dog treats and love in the world isn't going to make any difference. You, or your child, or somebody who just happens to be in the wrong place that day is going to get mauled.

But the inbreeding isn't the real cause. Stupid breeders over inbreeding heavily will give the "breed" health problems over time but that's about it. Everything else in your post nailed it though..

Well, I've heard "Breeding experts" on both sides of the issue. Some say basicly what you are saying and I've heard others explain it differently. Not being a "Breeding expert" myself or even all that informed I will bow to your expertise. The bottom line seems to be the same though and those "evil genes" are there like a time bomb waiting to go off. Maybe it depends on the definition of what "inbreeding" means I don't know. But whatever, the dogs are dangerous to have an to be around because of their unpredictable nature.

Thanks for you comments and the explanation though.

real
07-22-2007, 09:02 PM
Inbreeding is breeding two dogs that are related in some way.

Red_Zone
07-22-2007, 11:10 PM
Inbreeding is breeding two dogs that are related in some way.

Yeah, that much I knew, but from what I've heard before, Pit bulls are bred many times brother and sister and 1st cousins whereas as Herv points out many breeds are inbred to some degree. So maybe there should be some degree designation of inbreeding. I can see breeding 2nd and 3rd cousins for instance to get certain traits but brother and sister seems a little extreme.

As I said I'm no breeding expert, not even knowledgeable on the subject but I know I've heard over and over for years many people talk about the inbreeding of Pits as being particularly a problem. Common sense would indicate to me that it would be a problem but herv says it's not so since he seems to know more on the subject than I I'll go with that till I get more info. It really doesn't matter where these dogs get their "mean" Gene and unpredictability traits, the fact is they are there and need to be dealt with.

real
07-22-2007, 11:25 PM
Yeah, that much I knew, but from what I've heard before, Pit bulls are bred many times brother and sister and 1st cousins whereas as Herv points out many breeds are inbred to some degree. So maybe there should be some degree designation of inbreeding. I can see breeding 2nd and 3rd cousins for instance to get certain traits but brother and sister seems a little extreme.

As I said I'm no breeding expert, not even knowledgeable on the subject but I know I've heard over and over for years many people talk about the inbreeding of Pits as being particularly a problem. Common sense would indicate to me that it would be a problem but herv says it's not so since he seems to know more on the subject than I I'll go with that till I get more info. It really doesn't matter where these dogs get their "mean" Gene and unpredictability traits, the fact is they are there and need to be dealt with.

Not an expert, but I know a little bit. Inbreeding isn't what causes pitts to be agressive. It's because that's what they've been long since bred to do. That mean streak is bred in them much like it's bred within a cocker spaniel to be docile. It's called there temperment. All dogs have 'em. If you are ever looking into getting a dog and you do in depth research about the different breeds, you'll see that most have a certain tempermennt bred within them.

As far as inbreeding, every dog breed is victim to that in some form or fashion. That's when you get into health problems that some breed types are more suseptible to. Like some are prone to hip dysplasia; some are prone to being deaf; some are prone to sight problems...ect...

That's why a lot of pure bred dogs end up mixing with some kind of family member because by trying to select certain traits you limit your selection; as where a lot of muts don't tend to have genectic problems...

Atleast that's my understanding....

Hervoyel
07-22-2007, 11:31 PM
Breeding as close as you mention (brother and sister or for instance father daughter) is something that's not done often by breeders that I am familiar with. It is done but only to lock in a type that you want to keep. The next step is to breed out in the next generation and get a dog (or *****) to cross with yours that is not closely related. Because you've bred in tightly on the preceeding generation the pups from this next breeding should strongly represent the physical type of the line you just inbred. It confuses me sometimes but my wife understands it quite well. She's been breeding dogs for showing purposes for almost her entire life.

I'm sure there are nice, dedicated lovers of the "breed" (The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull as an official breed, nor does any reputable kennel club) who are trying to breed the ones with good temperament to try and fix them. What I was getting at is that behind these dogs, far back in their lines they were only bred for the traits I mentioned. No matter where they come from they have generations of ancestors bred for traits nobody in their right mind would want in a pet. I've talked to people who defend them and swear they've had Pits for decades without a problem. I don't get upset that this shoots a hole in my theory. I'm glad they've been lucky. I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

cuppacoffee
07-22-2007, 11:37 PM
How could a person take live crawfish, and first throw salt of all things on them, and after then kick from the burns, add insult to injury by throwing them in a pot of boiling water with more hot seasoning. Oh, yea, if the tails don't curl, they aren't fit to eat. After all of that, people gather and celebrate as they peel the tail and suck the head. WOW! Pass the bucket!



I am so ashamed........:embarrass

Somebody pass the hot sauce. :heat: :D


:coffee:

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 12:01 AM
Breeding as close as you mention (brother and sister or for instance father daughter) is something that's not done often by breeders that I am familiar with. It is done but only to lock in a type that you want to keep.

Like Vicious blood thirsty killer? LOL




I'm sure there are nice, dedicated lovers of the "breed" (The AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull as an official breed, nor does any reputable kennel club) who are trying to breed the ones with good temperament to try and fix them. What I was getting at is that behind these dogs, far back in their lines they were only bred for the traits I mentioned. No matter where they come from they have generations of ancestors bred for traits nobody in their right mind would want in a pet. I've talked to people who defend them and swear they've had Pits for decades without a problem. I don't get upset that this shoots a hole in my theory. I'm glad they've been lucky. I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

Amen. And you know I don't have a problem with someone having a dog they want like that, but having one around kids and old people is just insane. If you (the "general you" not you herv) want to risk your life aroud a pit bull I think you're insane, but if you risk the lives of kids and neighbors and the elderly and one of them is mamed or killed by your dog you should go to prison for life.

awtysst
07-23-2007, 12:56 AM
Like Vicious blood thirsty killer? LOL




Amen. And you know I don't have a problem with someone having a dog they want like that, but having one around kids and old people is just insane. If you (the "general you" not you herv) want to risk your life aroud a pit bull I think you're insane, but if you risk the lives of kids and neighbors and the elderly and one of them is mamed or killed by your dog you should go to prison for life.

You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

The Pencil Neck
07-23-2007, 02:01 AM
You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

I have a friend who runs an adoption program to save pitbulls and who only "adopts" 3-legged pits.

She loves them and says that they're frequently very sweet dogs as long as they haven't been trained to be nasty.

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 08:34 AM
You know its interesting. I used to live in Chicago and I had abuddy of mine that had a pit-poddle mix. She was an absolute sweethear around humans but couldnt stand other dogs and cats.

Yeah I heard that Pidoodles eat German Shepards for breakfast. ;)

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 08:36 AM
She loves them and says that they're frequently very sweet dogs as long as they haven't been trained to be nasty.

That's what they always say, right up to the time they grab you by the throat and won't let go.

nunusguy
07-23-2007, 08:59 AM
Calssifying any animal based on breed is not right. You just put all pit-bulls into one lump some.

I dunno, but would that be like dog-profiling ?
Dang, maybe the ACLU will step up and take on this blatant act of discrimination in the name of animal-rights.

real
07-23-2007, 10:03 AM
I don't think they should count on being lucky forever though.

Like you said, it's based on there temperment. You can tell what a dogs temperment is going to be pretty early on. I think the best time is right after they've been weened. Dominant puppies grow into dominant adults. Skiddish puppies grow into skiddish adults. A little oversimplified, but hey...

There are pitts that have been bred to have good temperments...Then you have pitts like the ones Vick had that were bred to have nasty teperments.

That's why if you get one you should know the breeder and check references. Most of these pitts that attack weren't purchased from a good breeder with a quality lineage of dogs.

Hervoyel
07-23-2007, 10:52 AM
Like you said, it's based on there temperment. You can tell what a dogs temperment is going to be pretty early on. I think the best time is right after they've been weened. Dominant puppies grow into dominant adults. Skiddish puppies grow into skiddish adults. A little oversimplified, but hey...

There are pitts that have been bred to have good temperments...Then you have pitts like the ones Vick had that were bred to have nasty teperments.

That's why if you get one you should know the breeder and check references. Most of these pitts that attack weren't purchased from a good breeder with a quality lineage of dogs.

Somebody trying to breed for good temperament in Pit Bulls has a lot of work cut out for them. I wish them luck and hope that luck never fails because that's what they're really banking on, luck.

There are Pits that have been bred to have good temperaments. Like I said before the people who are doing that started from the same stock that everyone else had. The very beginning of the breed is based on nothing but fighting dogs. Eventually that can and frequently does come back out. Often at the worst possible time.

I've talked this subject to death. If the allegations are true then Ron Mexico needs to spend the next few years behind bars along with this less famous accomplices. If the allegations are true then Ron Mexico is a monster.

Texan_Bill
07-23-2007, 11:03 AM
If there was a manual describing ideal Pit Bull temperament, it would probably read something like this: "The Pit Bull is goofily friendly towards people--family, friends, and strangers alike. Known for its sound character, strong nerve, and great intelligence, the breed makes an ideal companion for households with children, while remaining strong and vigilent enough to protect its loved ones if need be. It is never necessary to embark on guard or attack training with this breed, as they are naturally attuned to their environment and intuitive about real threats. Although never aggressive towards people without real need, the Pit Bull is dog-aggressive, to varying degrees.

Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.

Mr teX
07-23-2007, 11:22 AM
Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.



It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Aside from the many times i was running for my life on my morning commute to elementary & middle school & family pets biting everyone in the family except for my mother, the dogs i've come in contact with have made it hard for me to really feel anything for any animal period, much less a pit bull.

Chief among those incidents........

We had a chow as a family dog when i was younger (10 yr old) We treated that dog like he was part of the family & had had him since he was a pup. One day out of the blue he attacked one of our neigbors kids. Although he was every bit friendly & playful with us, that incident shook me a little.

We were given an ultimatum to either have the dog put down or they were going to sue us. We ended up having him put down.

real
07-23-2007, 11:28 AM
Generally the breed is people friendly - and dog aggressive.

That's been my experience as well.

Texan_Bill
07-23-2007, 11:34 AM
It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Aside from the many times i was running for my life on my morning commute to elementary & middle school & family pets biting everyone in the family except for my mother, the dogs i've come in contact with have made it hard for me to really feel anything for any animal period, much less a pit bull.

Chief among those incidents........

We had a chow as a family dog when i was younger (10 yr old) We treated that dog like he was part of the family & had had him since he was a pup. One day out of the blue he attacked one of our neigbors kids. Although he was every bit friendly & playful with us, that incident shook me a little.

We were given an ultimatum to either have the dog put down or they were going to sue us. We ended up having him put down.

Unfortunately, your biggest influence on dogs comes from your experience with Chows...

Chows 'are' notoriously known for doing their own thing. They are also known for being suspicious of people and very territorial and simply do whatever suits them. It does not matter how well you treat a chow, their temparment is more like a cat's in the sense that pleasing their master is not on the top of their list....

But Pitts, (and Rotts for that matter) have always been mislabeled as being aggressive towards people. They are not. They are people friendly.

Double Barrel
07-23-2007, 11:49 AM
It's been my experience that dogs are for the most part unpredictable period.

Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" (http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/) on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

Khari
07-23-2007, 12:00 PM
Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" (http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/) on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

Daddy!.....I'm not calling you daddy...that's one of cesar's dogs :pirate:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/1/129175622_36fbc28a65.jpg

hobie
07-23-2007, 12:11 PM
I know a few people, one who has a Pit and one with a Chow, both are well behaved, trained and playful. I never have seen any aggression in either animal. Having said that, I am not around all the time to know if those animals have bad days or not. I mean any living creature, be it man, animal, bug has the ability to go off unexpected. Dogs bite, thats what they do. Some are provoked but that is never told in the story, just that they attacked. Pull a tail of just about any dog and they will go at ya.

Humans snap at times as well, even the ones you would never expect. Countless killings from someone, and then thier family and friends say they never would have imagined that from him..

Now I am not trying to link those two, but dogs are animals, and ALL have the instinct to go off. Some dogs are breed that way, but family pets can snap too. My dog bit me one time, when she was somewhat young, I guess to try and establish her ground. I beat her for all of 10 seconds when I got her inside, and she has never bit me since. She will be 14 next week.

Pits and Chows are the same as German Shepards and Labs or whatever else, provoke them, take your chances, but to link all Pits or Chows as aggresive dogs, well I just cannot buy it. It all starts with the owners....

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 01:33 PM
Unfortunately, your biggest influence on dogs comes from your experience with Chows...

Chows 'are' notoriously known for doing their own thing. They are also known for being suspicious of people and very territorial and simply do whatever suits them. It does not matter how well you treat a chow, their temparment is more like a cat's in the sense that pleasing their master is not on the top of their list....

But Pitts, (and Rotts for that matter) have always been mislabeled as being aggressive towards people. They are not. They are people friendly.

what gets me is that like I said in another thread or earlier in this one.

20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

Dobbermans were thought to be killers and needed to be wiped out. There are some apt complexes that allow big dogs but say it has to be nonaggressive. Germansheppards, pits rotts, and dalmations are listed on the no list. (not dobbermans)

Rotts and pitts are the in dogs as far as people wanting to kill them because they say they are vicious. In 20 years it will be another breed.

Fine put restrictions on them but to kill an entire breed just because you think they can't be trained or worked with sounds pretty ignorant to me, something like the colonist said about Indians 300 years ago.

Mr teX
07-23-2007, 01:36 PM
Do yourself a huge favor and watch several episodes of Cesar Millan's "The Dog Whisperer" (http://www.dogpsychologycenter.com/) on National Geographic Channel. Seriously, it would greatly help you with your fear and you would obtain an understanding of dogs deeper than you probably ever realized possible. (Most unpredictable dogs are that way because of their owners.)

No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't. I'll never be able to fathom how people can spend ridiculous amounts of money to treat their dogs or any other animal as good as their offspring unless they depend on that animal for some sort of service for them to function rather normally in society, as in a seeing-eye dog.

To each their own.

On another note i found out that some lady left her dog like 20 million dollars when she died. I saw it in the guiness book store in SA. What the hell is a dog gonna do with 20 million?

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 01:43 PM
No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't. I'll never be able to fathom how people can spend ridiculous amounts of money to treat their dogs or any other animal as good as their kids in some instances unless they depend on that animal for some sort of service for them to function rather normally in society, as in a seeing-eye dog.


To each their own.

Yes and you can not see how ayone can go hunting because there is a grocery store with in a few miles. So no one should bake their own cakes because there is a bakery in the grocery store, and just because you want a different type is no excuse to make your own.

I understand not wanting to do it yourself when it comes to hunting or caring for a pet, but to be so closed minded as to not even understand how someone can treat something they love with as much care as humanly possible. You need to open up your mind and broden your prospective on everything in life.

Double Barrel
07-23-2007, 01:43 PM
No need, i'm fairly comfortable with my view on dogs, even if you guys aren't.

To be honest, and this is not meant in a disrespectful way, I read your comments as you are happy to be ignorant on the subject.

Whatever floats your boat, man. Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. I could honestly care less if you choose not to be educated about something, so my comfort level is just fine with your decision.

Mr teX
07-23-2007, 01:53 PM
To be honest, and this is not meant in a disrespectful way, I read your comments as you are happy to be ignorant on the subject.

Whatever floats your boat, man. Knowledge is the key to enlightenment. I could honestly care less if you choose not to be educated about something, so my comfort level is just fine with your decision.

None was never taken man, even when you guys resorted to name calling. I wouldn't neccessarily call it being ignorant about the subject, i know there are other reasons why people hunt & i know that some good things come from hunting. But when it's broken down to it's key elements, people flock to forests to hunt deer b/c they enjoy killing it, Otherwise you wouldn't see people posing with their guns with 1 of their feet mounted on over the dead deer carcass & a big smile to boot. & in that aspect alone, i don't see the difference between the 2.

& spetnatz, i still love ya man, :), but to answer you, for what other reason would you have to go hunt if that's not your way of life & have access to meat close by? Somehow i don't think butchers are taking pictures with a side of beef or people who work in slaughterhouses are gleefully smiling as the kill cows. baking a cake is harmless to animals so i don't see your point.

i don't know, i guess it's b/c i work in a very select healthcare field & encounter death fairly often, In many cases i'm the guy who has to turn someone off & it combined with my background with dogs has hardened me a bit.

let's just agree to disagree, cool?

Porky
07-23-2007, 02:03 PM
My ***** nephew decided a few years ago, that the best way to make money was be a no good lazy bum, and breed pitbulls. I mean he already had the lazy part perfected, but wanted to add to his resume. So, he bought a young breeding pair, and rented a little place with lots of room.

Seeing as I don't visit this malcontent very often, I was like, whatever floats your boat. But, I did tell my parents I wasn't thrilled with it because there are already too many pits in the world.

He did breed them, and sold all of the pups but one for like 250 each I think. He decided to keep one of the pups, so he then had three.

Anyway - long story short. This ameoba man genius decides to take a job in San Antonio. What does he do with the dogs? He dumps all three at my parents house. To make matters worse, my parents live next to me. :pirate:

To add insult to injury, my parents already had two dogs, one a rott mix with a mental defect who I hope never gets a gun, and the other a very good natured sweet mixed hound dog thingamabob.

My parents first told me it was a very temp arrangement, and they were going to figure out what to do with the pitts. To put the final salt in the wound, that was over 2 years ago, and my parents now love the dogs. They are now pitts biggest defenders. Before they got them, they didn't like them just like me.

Well, about 4 months ago, my sweet little Molly (the hound dog) was in the backyard, and the big male pitt and her got into an argument about a bone or something. Next thing we know, in a matter of a moment, the pitt attacked, and broke her leg, and chewed her up. They had to do surgery on Molly, and she has a pin in the leg, and limps around. She used to be this joyful bundle of energy. Now she is depressed and sleeps all day. It cost well over $1000 to set the pin.

So, do you think my parents got rid of the pitts? NO, of course not. It wasn't the pitts fault. Poor Molly just has to learn that the pitts rule, and not to antagonize them. I cannot talk any sense into my parents at all on this. When I or my wife go over to the house, we make them lock the pitts up. The one time they didn't, one came running at me growling and barking and carrying on. I was very scared, and dogs never scare me. After that, I call ahead, and tell them to lock the beasts up.

How can I talk any sense into my thick headed parents before a real disaster happens???:gun: :devilpig:

Goldensilence
07-23-2007, 02:04 PM
what gets me is that like I said in another thread or earlier in this one.

20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

Dobbermans were thought to be killers and needed to be wiped out. There are some apt complexes that allow big dogs but say it has to be nonaggressive. Germansheppards, pits rotts, and dalmations are listed on the no list. (not dobbermans)

Rotts and pitts are the in dogs as far as people wanting to kill them because they say they are vicious. In 20 years it will be another breed.

Fine put restrictions on them but to kill an entire breed just because you think they can't be trained or worked with sounds pretty ignorant to me, something like the colonist said about Indians 300 years ago.

Sometimes perception is reality in matters such as this. Dobbermans and Sheppards got that label i think after use in squads during war.

I'm still trying to fathom the colonist vs natives angle though.

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 02:07 PM
Well, about 4 months ago, my sweet little Molly (the hound dog) was in the backyard, and the big male pitt and her got into an argument about a bone or something. Next thing we know, in a matter of a moment, the pitt attacked, and broke her leg, and chewed her up. They had to do surgery on Molly, and she has a pin in the leg, and limps around. She used to be this joyful bundle of energy. Now she is depressed and sleeps all day. It cost well over $1000 to set the pin.

So, do you think my parents got rid of the pitts? NO, of course not. It wasn't the pitts fault. Poor Molly just has to learn that the pitts rule, and not to antagonize them. I cannot talk any sense into my parents at all on this. When I or my wife go over to the house, we make them lock the pitts up. The one time they didn't, one came running at me growling and barking and carrying on. I was very scared, and dogs never scare me. After that, I call ahead, and tell them to lock the beasts up.

How can I talk any sense into my thick headed parents before a real disaster happens???:gun: :devilpig:


I am sure this has never ever happened to another breed of dog in over 10,000 + years of dogs being around.



Sometimes perception is reality in matters such as this. Dobbermans and Sheppards got that label i think after use in squads during war.

I'm still trying to fathom the colonist vs natives angle though.

It is how peoples perception changes over time. I used something that was extremely over the top to make a point.

Vinny
07-23-2007, 02:18 PM
20 years ago German Sheppards were thought to be vicious killers that needed to be put down. Gee now they are police dogs and used a lot as seeing eye dogs. Opps got that one wrong.

dude...how old are you anyway? This seems like a comment a young guy would say. I thought you were an older guy. 20 years ago most people thought of German Sheppards as the same as they do now. They were used as police dogs when I was in school....over 20 years ago.

ccdude730
07-23-2007, 02:19 PM
some vick news...

Falcons | Team expected to discipline Vick soon
Mon, 23 Jul 2007 08:34:02 -0700

Peter King, of CNNSI.com, reports the National Football League has told Atlanta Falcons owner Arthur Blank that the disciplinary ball is in his court regarding QB Michael Vick. Blank intends to discipline Vick in some way by Tuesday, July 24. NFL commissioner Roger Goodell will have the right to add on to whatever punitive action Blank will take.www.kffl.com

Porky
07-23-2007, 02:20 PM
I am sure this has never ever happened to another breed of dog in over 10,000 + years of dogs being around.

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at? I have had dogs my whole life. I was raised with dogs, including a 100+ lb German Shepard trained as a guard dog that could snap a human in two on voice command. I could put my entire head in that dogs mouth when I was little, and it would just lick me to death. To the person who said German Shephards used to be thought of like Pitts, you coudn't be more wrong. German Shephards would never hurt their master unless absouletly provoked or in self defense. They are one of the most loyal dogs on Earth. Now, if you happen to be the poor soul who breaks into a home with a 100lb trained Shephard, well good luck in heaven, because there won't be anything left but pieces.

Pitts and Rotts and Doberman's can and do turn on their owners. I have lived with literally dozens of dogs, and not one time has one of my dogs or my parents dogs injured another dog, ours or anyone else's. My Dad (who is 68 and owned dogs since being a young boy) said it's never happened as long as he has had dogs either. Yet, you think it is coincedence?

:confused: :um:

Porky
07-23-2007, 02:32 PM
INSIGHTS FROM A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR

Since the federal prosecutors handling the Vick case won't be conducting many (or any) Poindexter-style press briefings, the closest thing we'll ever get to the thought processes of the federal prosecutors in this case will be via the insights of a former federal prosecutor.

Attorney Marc Garber of The Garber Law Firm, with offices in Atlanta and Marietta, Georgia, worked for eight years as a federal prosecutor in New Jersey and Nevada. He agreed to provide on-the-record observations regarding the Vick case, based on Garber's experiences working up and trying federal criminal cases on behalf of the United States of America.

As an initial matter, Garber believes that the mere existence of an indictment is the product of extensive work by prosecutors to marshal evidence that puts Vick in the places where they allege that he was, doing the things he allegedly did. That evidence, Garber believes, goes beyond the four unnamed cooperating witnesses mentioned in the indictment.

"If I had Vick's case," he said, "the testimony of four cooperators would be enough to prompt a search, but not an indictment. To pull the trigger on an indictment, I'd need documentary evidence that corroborates what the cooperators said.

"I'd start with Vick's credit-card bills to see where he's buying things and when. I'd check airline tickets or other evidence of travel to see when he was in Virginia. I'd check cell phone information. I'd check emails. Whatever kind of documented communication or evidence of travel or location you can imagine, that's what I'd want.

"There's no way, if you're a federal prosecutor, you pull the trigger on this case without [extensive] documents that let you plot out a time-line -- in multiple colors on a huge board that sits in front of the jury as you bury Vick witness by witness and document by document -- putting him at the dog fights on his property."

It all makes a lot of sense. As we've previously explained, the feds aren't in this case to win an indictment and then lose a trial. They took on this fight because prosecutors believe that they have the proof to secure a conviction.

Interestingly, Garber thinks that the prosecution ultimately will focus less on the dog fighting and more on the gambling.

"This case is not so much about animal abuse, though that's the hook that gets the jury impassioned," Garber said. "This case from the Justice Department's perspective is about an illegal-gambling ring which, though the NFL remains silent on this point, is why Vick should be staring at an instant suspension."

Link (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 02:45 PM
dude...how old are you anyway? This seems like a comment a young guy would say. I thought you were an older guy. 20 years ago most people thought of German Sheppards as the same as they do now. They were used as police dogs when I was in school....over 20 years ago.

I am 38 but I know growing up in the very early 70's some would say German Sheppards and Dobbermans were not good dogs to have as a family pet. They would turn on kids and kill them. I guess I should have said more like 30 years ago (damn I am getting old).

My point is that perceptions change all the time on a breed of dog, on people, on just about everything. A few people are advocating for the humane euthanization of pittbulls. That is if there is a humane way of making a breed of dog exstinct.

Yes porky I do think it is a quincidence. The two little gogs lived for so long together and then three more come in and tred on what they believe is their territory. It is possible for the little one to think he runs the house.

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 02:48 PM
Since the federal prosecutors handling the Vick case won't be conducting many (or any) Poindexter-style press briefings, the closest thing we'll ever get to the thought processes of the federal prosecutors in this case will be via the insights of a former federal prosecutor.


I love this quote. It is good because they should not conduct business in the press.

Koolaid Time
07-23-2007, 03:04 PM
All of the mentioned breeds are smart... but IMO.. this is the "Smartest Dog of All"...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/bewareofvick.jpg

Koolaid Time
07-23-2007, 03:08 PM
I love this quote. It is good because they should not conduct business in the press.

That is the one thing I like about the about US Attorney's Office... with the exception of Enron and HealthSouth, (Big Exceptions) the Prosecutors keep a low media profile and save it all for the Courtroom.

I think they will keep Vick a low profile case as well considering the high liklihood of an Undercover Federal Agent penetrating the network. After the verdict they will talk to the media.

Blazing Arrow
07-23-2007, 03:19 PM
The city of San Francisco has tried and is still trying to outlaw the bread completely. Not sure if anyone remembers the story of the mom who locked her son (~5 years old if memory serves correctly) in the basement. Well her pitbull was allowed to roam the house while the son was in the basement. Yes class act mother I know. Well I guess the son got the door open. You can basically imagine what happened. The lady is serving time now for child endangerment but the case got huge press. It was followed up about 2 months later with another child that was mauled nearly to death by a pitbull. Got to close to the fence and the dog got a hold of the boy and tried pulling him through a it.

Porky
07-23-2007, 03:22 PM
I am 38 but I know growing up in the very early 70's some would say German Sheppards and Dobbermans were not good dogs to have as a family pet. They would turn on kids and kill them. I guess I should have said more like 30 years ago (damn I am getting old).

My point is that perceptions change all the time on a breed of dog, on people, on just about everything. A few people are advocating for the humane euthanization of pittbulls. That is if there is a humane way of making a breed of dog exstinct.

Yes porky I do think it is a quincidence. The two little gogs lived for so long together and then three more come in and tred on what they believe is their territory. It is possible for the little one to think he runs the house.

Dobermans yes. German Shepards no. Not gonna swear there was never an isolated incident of a Shepard killing a kid, but I think your memory is wrong. I am older than you, and remember no such talk about Shepards. In fact, as I already mentioned, loyalty is the Shephards biggest trait, and they vitrually never turn on one of their own pack. Now, if you are a member of another pack.....that's a different story, especially if you show agression toward the dog or family.

Double Barrel
07-23-2007, 03:29 PM
I remember some of my grandparents generation having a problem with German Shepherds, but it was because of the war more than anything else. Old perceptions are hard to break, I suppose.

I've had Shepherds and loved them. I'd happily get another one when I'm ready for a dog in my life.

DiapHer
07-23-2007, 03:48 PM
Also growing up in the 70's two German Shepard's lived down the street from us one attacked my brother mowing "our" yard biting him in the behind, they also bit the mailman and one evening when my father started the grill (no food was cooking) and I was outside sitting on the porch they both came running for me luckily I was close enough to the front door and made it in the house. After that I took a pen and crossed out the picture of a German Shepard in our World Book!!! Thankfully, they moved soon after that!!!

Hervoyel
07-23-2007, 03:55 PM
German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.

Dobermans gained a ton of popularity and interest when "The Omen" was released. Everyone who saw it remembered those evil dogs and guys who wanted a "tough dog" flocked to the breed. The are also a breed that is frequently trained as guard dogs and the same thing I said about German Shepards holds true with Dobermans. Dobermans are no longer considered to be the toughest dog on the block by the masses and haven't been for some time. It took Doberman breeders decades to undo the damage to their breed that that brief spurt of popularity did.

Now it's Rotts and Pits. They're not only wildly popular but in the case of the Pit Bull they're even tougher than the image most people think they're getting. I see a ton of wishful thinking and misinformation in this thread. I won't post again because IMO you either get it or you buy the excuses of the Pit Bull supporters. I'm not for euthanising an entire breed of dog. I'm for sterilizing an entire breed of dog and allowing it to die out for the betterment of the species. Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

For example we have Bulldogs that can't give birth naturally anymore because of the extremes to which their breeders have taken them. They can't even stay afloat in a pool without help because their "breed standard" legs are too short to dog paddle. Lots of breeds would vanish if man stepped back and chose to no longer make things work. The Pit Bull is a type of dog whose days are over and who needs to be allowed to pass into history. It's purpose is illegal and immoral in todays world. It's time to let them go. There are plenty of perfectly suitable dogs in existence. We don't need to keep these ticking time-bomb remnants of a disgusting sport around any longer.

Spay, Neuter, and enforce and in no time you won't be reading about kids getting chewed up by these things. Of course if you don't mind the monthly story about somebody getting a couple of hundred stitches so long as you can have your sweet loving Pit Bull then nevermind. I hope you continue to enjoy the luck you've had so far.

DiapHer
07-23-2007, 04:01 PM
German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.


I just loved watching Hogan's Heroes!! :)

Specnatz
07-23-2007, 04:20 PM
German Shepards have not had a problem in my lifetime regarding breed perception. A lot of people grew up watching Nazis on TV walking around with German Shepards and they have been trained as guard dogs. This can result in cases where training has resulted in an aggressive dog that can't be controlled. It's rare. This is what Pit Bull supporters would have you believe is behind the problem with their dogs.

Dobermans gained a ton of popularity and interest when "The Omen" was released. Everyone who saw it remembered those evil dogs and guys who wanted a "tough dog" flocked to the breed. The are also a breed that is frequently trained as guard dogs and the same thing I said about German Shepards holds true with Dobermans. Dobermans are no longer considered to be the toughest dog on the block by the masses and haven't been for some time. It took Doberman breeders decades to undo the damage to their breed that that brief spurt of popularity did.

Now it's Rotts and Pits. They're not only wildly popular but in the case of the Pit Bull they're even tougher than the image most people think they're getting. I see a ton of wishful thinking and misinformation in this thread. I won't post again because IMO you either get it or you buy the excuses of the Pit Bull supporters. I'm not for euthanising an entire breed of dog. I'm for sterilizing an entire breed of dog and allowing it to die out for the betterment of the species. Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

For example we have Bulldogs that can't give birth naturally anymore because of the extremes to which their breeders have taken them. They can't even stay afloat in a pool without help because their "breed standard" legs are too short to dog paddle. Lots of breeds would vanish if man stepped back and chose to no longer make things work. The Pit Bull is a type of dog whose days are over and who needs to be allowed to pass into history. It's purpose is illegal and immoral in todays world. It's time to let them go. There are plenty of perfectly suitable dogs in existence. We don't need to keep these ticking time-bomb remnants of a disgusting sport around any longer.

Spay, Neuter, and enforce and in no time you won't be reading about kids getting chewed up by these things. Of course if you don't mind the monthly story about somebody getting a couple of hundred stitches so long as you can have your sweet loving Pit Bull then nevermind. I hope you continue to enjoy the luck you've had so far.

While I agre with a lot of what you said about how people have ruined certain breeds of dogs, and this does include pittbulls. If people would breed a dog correctly and not for fighting there would not be a problem with any breed. I am just not into saying extinguish any breed of dog, only reeducate the masses and to try and breed the dog correctly, because if you make it law to extinguish this breed those who have no morals will only introduce another breed that is a ticking time-bomb.

As far as German Sheppards go, this could be why my memory is as I have stated about those claiming it was a bad breed at one time. I can only go by what I was taught and or told about that particular breed.

Double Barrel
07-23-2007, 04:54 PM
Dog breeds as we know them did not come about naturally. These breeds were created for specific purposes, appearance, and nature by man. We didn't always do the smartest thing when we created these breeds.

Exactly. People tend to forget that the history of different dog breeds is a history of human manipulation.

I know some folks who have wolves, and actually breed them. These can be very dangerous pets, and they handle them accordingly. There are many precautions that can be taken when the owners clearly recognize the nature of the animal and are responsible about ownership. The same attitude by pit bull owners should be taken if they want to be seen as accountable pet owners by the general public.

(The wolf owners that I know do not trust pit bulls...go figure.)

Blazing Arrow
07-23-2007, 05:12 PM
I have a 120 lb "giant" Sheppard. He is pure bred with papers or what ever. Barring someone attacking me, my wife or my child the dog would piss himself in a real confrontation. Sheppard’s are not naturally aggressive creatures. Protective of their loved ones. If they are trained to be aggressive that is another thing.

He is strong enough to crush a door knob down to a flat metal pancake with his teeth. In 5 years of rough housing and just playing one time he nearly bit me (my own fault,; I was slapping him in the face and my hand went into his mouth). Once he realized what he had done he ran to the corner and pissed himself.

Texan_Bill
07-23-2007, 05:47 PM
I have a 120 lb "giant" Sheppard. He is pure bred with papers or what ever. Barring someone attacking me, my wife or my child the dog would piss himself in a real confrontation. Sheppard’s are not naturally aggressive creatures. Protective of their loved ones. If they are trained to be aggressive that is another thing.

He is strong enough to crush a door knob down to a flat metal pancake with his teeth. In 5 years of rough housing and just playing one time he nearly bit me (my own fault,; I was slapping him in the face and my hand went into his mouth). Once he realized what he had done he ran to the corner and pissed himself.

He feared the wrath of the Arrow!!

real
07-23-2007, 05:55 PM
Dobermans yes. German Shepards no. Not gonna swear there was never an isolated incident of a Shepard killing a kid, but I think your memory is wrong. I am older than you, and remember no such talk about Shepards. In fact, as I already mentioned, loyalty is the Shephards biggest trait, and they vitrually never turn on one of their own pack. Now, if you are a member of another pack.....that's a different story, especially if you show agression toward the dog or family.

Not that old, but I have read A LOT about dogs.

All I've ever read about German Shepards was their loyalty. I've never read anywhere that they were considered a 'dangerous' or aggressive breed.

I've even read that they are a good dog to have around children.

Texan_Bill
07-23-2007, 06:01 PM
The ONLY negative thing that I have heard about German SHepards is that when they get older, and really set in their ways, they can be a little more temparmental than other breeds...

But then again, my grandfather became a grumpy ol cuss too when he got older...

Blazing Arrow
07-23-2007, 06:21 PM
I've even read that they are a good dog to have around children.

This was the reason my wife insisted we get a sheppard. My daughter uses him as her mini horse and he struts around with a big grin and his tounge dangling out.

Khari
07-23-2007, 07:54 PM
NEW YORK (July 23, 2007) -- Commissioner Roger Goodell has ordered Michael Vick of the Atlanta Falcons not to report to the team’s training camp pending the completion of an NFL review of his recent indictment by a federal grand jury in Richmond, Va., for allegedly participating in an interstate dog-fighting enterprise.

Commissioner Goodell informed Vick that the review would be completed as soon as possible and that Vick’s full cooperation is expected.

In a letter to Vick today, Commissioner Goodell said: "While it is for the criminal justice system to determine your guilt or innocence, it is my responsibility as commissioner of the National Football League to determine whether your conduct, even if not criminal, nonetheless violated league policies, including the Personal Conduct Policy."

Vick will not forfeit his preseason pay during his excused absence from training camp.

Commissioner Goodell also directed the Falcons today to withhold any contemplated team discipline regarding the Vick matter until the NFL review is completed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/10266380

Hagar
07-23-2007, 08:21 PM
I've become very prejudiced against pits since my dad was attaced by three when he was riding his bike one evening. Dad was pretty tore up, but all in all he was lucky the owner was outside at the time to stop the attack.

Pit Bulls have changed a lot over the years. Here are some pictures of Pete the Pup (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pete.php) from the Little Rascals. Compared to pictures of a modern Pit Bull (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanpitbull.htm) and you'll see the change is significant. Particularly in the size and shape of the head along with the depth an width of the chest areas.

The problem with banning a particular breed is that given a little bit of time and some genetics know how, you can change the traits of any breed to look and act just like todays Pit Bulls.

powerfuldragon
07-23-2007, 08:23 PM
oops. khari already posted it.

Hagar
07-23-2007, 08:25 PM
NEW YORK (July 23, 2007) -- Commissioner Roger Goodell has ordered Michael Vick of the Atlanta Falcons not to report to the team’s training camp pending the completion of an NFL review of his recent indictment by a federal grand jury in Richmond, Va., for allegedly participating in an interstate dog-fighting enterprise.

Commissioner Goodell informed Vick that the review would be completed as soon as possible and that Vick’s full cooperation is expected.

In a letter to Vick today, Commissioner Goodell said: "While it is for the criminal justice system to determine your guilt or innocence, it is my responsibility as commissioner of the National Football League to determine whether your conduct, even if not criminal, nonetheless violated league policies, including the Personal Conduct Policy."

Vick will not forfeit his preseason pay during his excused absence from training camp.

Commissioner Goodell also directed the Falcons today to withhold any contemplated team discipline regarding the Vick matter until the NFL review is completed.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/10266380I have to admit, I like our new commissioner.

Vinny
07-23-2007, 08:36 PM
I've become very prejudiced against pits since my dad was attaced by three when he was riding his bike one evening. Dad was pretty tore up, but all in all he was lucky the owner was outside at the time to stop the attack.

Pit Bulls have changed a lot over the years. Here are some pictures of Pete the Pup (http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/pete.php) from the Little Rascals. Compared to pictures of a modern Pit Bull (http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/americanpitbull.htm) and you'll see the change is significant. Particularly in the size and shape of the head along with the depth an width of the chest areas.

The problem with banning a particular breed is that given a little bit of time and some genetics know how, you can change the traits of any breed to look and act just like todays Pit Bulls.
the biggest problem with pitt bulls is that they have a heavy chase instinct and coupled with their insanely powerful jaws it is a bad combination to be around kids (kids tend to run around alot) or anything that moves quickly....for the most part. Dogs, like people are all different...but Mother Nature gave them that chase instinct and that makes those powerful dogs a danger.

Pantherstang84
07-23-2007, 08:39 PM
I have to admit, I like our new commissioner.

Yep. He's a good one so far. However, the NFL/Falcons had to do something otherwise training camp would have been a media circus.

Joey Harrington! Come on down. You're now the Falcons' starting quarterback.

whiskeyrbl
07-23-2007, 09:29 PM
It's nice to see a commish with cohona's these days. Maybe this will keep the trash out of the leauge.( not refering to Vick,talking about future to be NFL players). However if he is found guilty he will definitely resemble this remark.:user:

brakos82
07-23-2007, 09:31 PM
Yep. He's a good one so far. However, the NFL/Falcons had to do something otherwise training camp would have been a media circus.

Joey Harrington! Come on down. You're now the Falcons' starting quarterback.

And what do we have for our new contestant, Rod?

"It's a set of sacks! Fresh from the Heart of Houston, Texas comes to you the Williams-Ryans series of crushing blows! This prize worth two of your potential touchdowns out the window!"

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 09:33 PM
If there was a manual describing ideal Pit Bull temperament, it would probably read something like this: "The Pit Bull is goofily friendly towards people--family, friends, and strangers alike. Known for its sound character, strong nerve, and great intelligence, the breed makes an ideal companion for households with children, while remaining strong and vigilent enough to protect its loved ones if need be. It is never necessary to embark on guard or attack training with this breed, as they are naturally attuned to their environment and intuitive about real threats. Although never aggressive towards people without real need, the Pit Bull is dog-aggressive, to varying degrees.

Signed: PBAA (Pit Bull Apologist Association) Seriously where do you get this stuff, there's no link provided.

Never aggressive toward people?? Tell that to all those dead children and old people attacked by Pit Bulls.

Kaiser Toro
07-23-2007, 10:03 PM
David Stern is loving this story.

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 10:07 PM
Joey Harrington! Come on down. You're now the Falcons' starting quarterback.

Don't count on that, I'm sure the Falcons will be looking for a good starter. Harrington was hired as back up and I think that's where he'll stay. He may take snaps in practice but I doubt he'll start any regular season games, they'll have a replacement for Vick by then. I seriously doubt Vick will ever be in a Falcon uni again.

Koolaid Time
07-23-2007, 10:18 PM
Vick will not forfeit his preseason pay during his excused absence from training camp.


So this is how they escape the PacMan issue... the NFL calls it an "excused absence" so therefore Vick gets paid, while PacMan is suspended, without pay...

But at what point does the "excused absence" become "suspension"??.. when the Fed Undercover Video showing Vick at a Dogfight gets leaked by someone looking for a payday??

Koolaid Time
07-23-2007, 10:21 PM
Harrington was hired as back up and I think that's where he'll stay. He may take snaps in practice but I doubt he'll start any regular season games, they'll have a replacement for Vick by then. I seriously doubt Vick will ever be in a Falcon uni again.

Realistically, what does Atlanta have (other than draft picks) to trade to get a QB with?

Red_Zone
07-23-2007, 10:53 PM
So this is how they escape the PacMan issue... the NFL calls it an "excused absence" so therefore Vick gets paid, while PacMan is suspended, without pay...

But at what point does the "excused absence" become "suspension"??.. when the Fed Undercover Video showing Vick at a Dogfight gets leaked by someone looking for a payday??

Going by the wording of the commisioners statement to Vick the situation is just under study, this is not the final dispensation. This will surely evolve into a full fledged suspension without pay. Also remember that the Falcons can still just release Vick after the NFL makes it's final decision if the Falcons want to. Right now the falcons are holding off pending NFL action.





Realistically, what does Atlanta have (other than draft picks) to trade to get a QB with?

A lot depends on the final status of vick (concerning the NFL actions) and how it all plays out concerning the salary cap etc. Also they may be interested (at least temporarily) in an older free agent like Steve DeBerg, at least that's a name that's being tossed around on sports talk radio here.

Pantherstang84
07-23-2007, 10:54 PM
And what do we have for our new contestant, Rod?

"It's a set of sacks! Fresh from the Heart of Houston, Texas comes to you the Williams-Ryans series of crushing blows! This prize worth two of your potential touchdowns out the window!"


But wait! There's more. We'll also throw in a set of our finest bone rattling hits courtesy of Okoye Enterprises...

Seriously though. What cracks me up is how BSPN and crew hailed Rich McKay as the best GM in football because he stole 2 2nd round picks from the Texans going in to the draft.

However, hindsight is always 20/20....

Speedy
07-23-2007, 11:34 PM
I am 38 but I know growing up in the very early 70's some would say German Sheppards and Dobbermans were not good dogs to have as a family pet. They would turn on kids and kill them. I guess I should have said more like 30 years ago (damn I am getting old).

My point is that perceptions change all the time on a breed of dog, on people, on just about everything. A few people are advocating for the humane euthanization of pittbulls. That is if there is a humane way of making a breed of dog exstinct.

Yes porky I do think it is a quincidence. The two little gogs lived for so long together and then three more come in and tred on what they believe is their territory. It is possible for the little one to think he runs the house.

I grew up with a German Shepherd, in the 70's, from a small boy, 4 or 5 or so, maybe even younger than that, I'll have to ask my mom, until he died when I was about 10 or 11.

That dog never had any training from anyone other than us teaching to sit and whatever. This dog was the most loyal dog you're ever going to find. He curled up around my mom's feet once in the backyard where she couldn't keep walking. She kept trying to scold him and push him away but he wouldn't let her go. Finally, a few feet ahead of her she saw a big snake slithering across the yard.

This dog was aggressive too, in a way that if we weren't in the backyard with whoever was back there, you'd better not go back there. But if we're in the backyard all the neighborhood kids could come back and never have to worry about the dog. In fact, we had a game we all used to play with him where he'd grab the tennis ball and we all chased him down to try and get it. Anyone who caught him could reach right into his mouth and work the ball out. Then they'd throw the ball, the dog would haul ass after it and we'd start chasing him again. Never bit anyone.

But if one of those kids tried to go back there when we weren't around, he wasn't going to let you do it.

He did like to carry cats around in his mouth though, until my dad whacked him with a golf club once. I don't know if he ever tasted another cat after that.

So anyway, that was over 30 years ago, so I don't know where the perception of them not being good family pets 20 years ago is coming from.

Pantherstang84
07-23-2007, 11:49 PM
Don't count on that, I'm sure the Falcons will be looking for a good starter. Harrington was hired as back up and I think that's where he'll stay. He may take snaps in practice but I doubt he'll start any regular season games, they'll have a replacement for Vick by then. I seriously doubt Vick will ever be in a Falcon uni again.

Who? Culpepper? Rumor has it he is about to join Gruden's QB collection. I know the Falcons did not intend for Harrington to be the starter. However, I'm afraid they have no choice now.

Double Barrel
07-24-2007, 12:31 AM
So anyway, that was over 30 years ago, so I don't know where the perception of them not being good family pets 20 years ago is coming from.

For our generation, that's definitely true. Anyone remember the show "Run, Joe, Run"? It was about an army-trained German Shepherd that ran around doing good deeds looking for his trainer, who was always dressed as a civilian chasing after him.

Kinda' weird premise for a show, looking back on it. :um:

p.s. that's what I thought it was about, but here's the skinny:

Joe, a trained member of the military's K-9 Corp., was falsely accused of attacking his master, Sergeant Corey. Joe managed to escape before being killed and a bounty was put on his head. While Sergeant Corey tried to find him before the authorities did, Joe managed to help the people he encountered on his travels. Although Corey always came close, he never managed to find Joe. During the second season, Corey was called back to duty and Joe teamed up with Josh McCoy, a hiker, and continued on his trek while helping others. - Source (http://www.70slivekidvid.com/rjr.htm)

http://www.70slivekidvid.com/run/rjrtitle.gif

Second Honeymoon
07-24-2007, 12:33 AM
For our generation, that's definitely true. Anyone remember the show "Run, Joe, Run"? It was about an army-trained German Shepherd that ran around doing good deeds looking for his trainer, who was always dressed as a civilian chasing after him.

Kinda' weird premise for a show, looking back on it. :um:

p.s. that's what I thought it was about, but here's the skinny:



http://www.70slivekidvid.com/run/rjrtitle.gif


Double Barrel wins!

Koolaid Time
07-24-2007, 04:19 AM
A lot depends on the final status of vick (concerning the NFL actions) and how it all plays out concerning the salary cap etc. Also they may be interested (at least temporarily) in an older free agent like Steve DeBerg, at least that's a name that's being tossed around on sports talk radio here.

OMG Steve DeBerg. He must be over 50.....

Last time I saw him he was doing late night infomercials for the Senior Citizen "Reverse Mortgage" Scam...

Mr teX
07-24-2007, 09:04 AM
Who? Culpepper? Rumor has it he is about to join Gruden's QB collection. I know the Falcons did not intend for Harrington to be the starter. However, I'm afraid they have no choice now.

Watched NFL total access yesterday right around when the story broke about goodell telling vick not to go to training camp & Schefter said that the Falcons front office said they weren't interested in Culpepper. They might actually roll with Harrington but just to be safe, they'll open the position up for competition in training camp so shockley can maybe have a shot.

Red_Zone
07-24-2007, 09:32 AM
I grew up with a German Shepherd, in the 70's, from a small boy, 4 or 5 or so, maybe even younger than that, I'll have to ask my mom, until he died when I was about 10 or 11.

That dog never had any training from anyone other than us teaching to sit and whatever. This dog was the most loyal dog you're ever going to find. He curled up around my mom's feet once in the backyard where she couldn't keep walking. She kept trying to scold him and push him away but he wouldn't let her go. Finally, a few feet ahead of her she saw a big snake slithering across the yard.

This dog was aggressive too, in a way that if we weren't in the backyard with whoever was back there, you'd better not go back there. But if we're in the backyard all the neighborhood kids could come back and never have to worry about the dog. In fact, we had a game we all used to play with him where he'd grab the tennis ball and we all chased him down to try and get it. Anyone who caught him could reach right into his mouth and work the ball out. Then they'd throw the ball, the dog would haul ass after it and we'd start chasing him again. Never bit anyone.

But if one of those kids tried to go back there when we weren't around, he wasn't going to let you do it.

He did like to carry cats around in his mouth though, until my dad whacked him with a golf club once. I don't know if he ever tasted another cat after that.

So anyway, that was over 30 years ago, so I don't know where the perception of them not being good family pets 20 years ago is coming from.

That is typical of what my experience has been with German Shepard dogs. Also they are I think the most widely chosen to be "Seeing eye" dogs, cadaver sniffing dogs, drug dogs, police dogs and other trained human assistance dogs. You don't see pit bulls being trained to do all that.

To my knowledge Shepards have always been known for their intelligence, loyalty and gentleness with the exception those being trained guard/security dogs and even those show those traits to their owners and family.

I've never heard of a Shepard going ape after years of being a faithful pet and attacking its owner as you hear all the time about Pits.

FWIW, Falcons are to have a press conference today at around 4 pm I think . I hope there'll be an announcement that Vick is to be released and some info about what they will do to replace him.

The Falcons have called a 4 p.m. Tuesday afternoon press conference to elaborate on the issue. The video of this press conference will be carried LIVE on Atlantafalcons.com.

Mr teX
07-24-2007, 09:45 AM
That is typical of what my experience has been with German Shepard dogs. Also they are I think the most widely chosen to be "Seeing eye" dogs, cadaver sniffing dogs, drug dogs, police dogs and other trained human assistance dogs. You don't see pit bulls being trained to do all that.

To my knowledge Shepards have always been known for their intelligence, loyalty and gentleness with the exception those being trained guard/security dogs and even those show those traits to their owners and family.

I've never heard of a Shepard going ape after years of being a faithful pet and attacking its owner as you hear all the time about Pits.

FWIW, Falcons are to have a press conference today at around 4 pm I think . I hope there'll be an announcement that Vick is to be released and some info about what they will do to replace him.


I can't see them releasing him, his guaranteed money would advance against the cap, i don't know exactly how much, but owners almost always hate to have to pay guaranteed money like that.

Secondly, if Blank lets him go, he's gonna see alot of money walk out with him. I think people underestimate how much that guy is still revered in that city.


They'll most likely be either saying that he & the orgaization have agreed to the leave of absence for this season with pay (reports are that he has) or that they are going to suspend him for the season (something akin to what happened to Keyshawn in TB) or said number of games.

Hervoyel
07-24-2007, 09:47 AM
OMG Steve DeBerg. He must be over 50.....

Last time I saw him he was doing late night infomercials for the Senior Citizen "Reverse Mortgage" Scam...

I would love to see Steve DeBerg come out and play again. That would be like seeing Blanda walk out on the field or something. That would be historic (and probably historically bad I admit) Can you imagine a dude drafted in 1977 taking a snap in 2007? That would be unreal.

For a 10th rounder he had quite a run. How long has it been since there was even such a thing as a 10th round draft pick?

Texan_Bill
07-24-2007, 10:28 AM
Signed: PBAA (Pit Bull Apologist Association) Seriously where do you get this stuff, there's no link provided.

Never aggressive toward people?? Tell that to all those dead children and old people attacked by Pit Bulls.

Ooooops... my bad. Read away Red:

THE REAL PIT BULL (http://www.realpitbull.com/temperament.html)

PS... I am not particularly fond of Pits, I am more of an English Springer Spaniel guy....
http://www.ariel-ess.com/essfaq/pair.jpg

real
07-24-2007, 10:41 AM
Ooooops... my bad. Read away Red:

THE REAL PIT BULL (http://www.realpitbull.com/temperament.html)

PS... I am not particularly fond of Pits, I am more of an English Springer Spaniel guy....


People don't really understand Pitt-bulls and as humans we tend to be afraid of things we don't understand...

Texan_Bill
07-24-2007, 10:43 AM
People don't really understand Pitt-bulls and as humans we tend to be afraid of things we don't understand...

Nicely put Xtru!!

HoustonFrog
07-24-2007, 11:01 AM
HOLY..Vick was indicted!!!:homer:

Sorry, I just keep seeing the thread.

Blazing Arrow
07-24-2007, 12:01 PM
[/B]


I can't see them releasing him, his guaranteed money would advance against the cap, i don't know exactly how much, but owners almost always hate to have to pay guaranteed money like that.


I think they can pull the non football related issue card and not have to pay him a dime. Like the LB in San Deigo last year that was shot infront of his house. Do not recall the guys name.

Texan_Bill
07-24-2007, 12:06 PM
I think they can pull the non football related issue card and not have to pay him a dime. Like the LB in San Deigo last year that was shot infront of his house. Do not recall the guys name.

Do you mean ex-Texan Steve Foley??

Blazing Arrow
07-24-2007, 12:24 PM
Do you mean ex-Texan Steve Foley??

Sounds about right ..... He was pulled over for drunk driving by an undercover. His girlfriend decieded it would be wise to try and run the armed cop over. He openned fire shooting the guy 3 times or something like that.

Texan_Bill
07-24-2007, 12:31 PM
YUP, I think thats the winner:
Steve Foley (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,212025,00.html)

Blazing Arrow
07-24-2007, 12:35 PM
My point; SD used a claus in the contract that allowed them to cut him with no cap hit and did not have to pay him anything. This would seem to fit this situation.

Mr teX
07-24-2007, 12:48 PM
I think they can pull the non football related issue card and not have to pay him a dime. Like the LB in San Deigo last year that was shot infront of his house. Do not recall the guys name.

Maybe, but i don't know if the NFLPA would go for that considering this is his 1st real offense unlike with foley who'd had previous run ins with the po-po.

Second Honeymoon
07-24-2007, 12:49 PM
My point; SD used a claus in the contract that allowed them to cut him with no cap hit and did not have to pay him anything. This would seem to fit this situation.

They still had to take a cap hit for his pro-rated signing bonus. They were able to tear up the contract but not the salary cap implications of his signing bonus that had already been paid. If you give a big signing bonus to a scumbag who could be trouble and then he gets in trouble, you have to pay the piper.

In other words, the owner gets to keep his money and in some cases try and get it back in court (see Ricky Williams and Dolphins situation), but the money left from his signing bonuses must get charged off within a 2 year period.

From what Chicken Little err John Clayton said, the Falcons would be hit with $12 million cap hit this season and a $15 million next year for a player that isn't even on the team anymore. Foley just didn't have the largest signing bonus in history like Vick did, so the cap hit was negligible.

The Falcons best bet would be to release Vick, start DJ Shockley to appease the local fans and the African-American fans who think this is all some big conspiracy by 'the man' and then the team would suck and they would have a shot at reuniting Brohm from Louisville with his college coach, Petrino.

fwiw- kudos to Goodell to take a proactive stance and not let Vick report to camp. Vick gave up his league membership when he started hanging out with felons and dog murderers....ultimately becoming one himself.

HOU-TEX
07-24-2007, 12:56 PM
Either way, the falcons will be a better team without Vick. In Petrino's offense, Harrington might be the better fit. I think the offense will be more successful with a pocket passer rather than a Vick. Having Schaub would've made the falcons a definite playoff threat.

Sorry for the random thought. I didn't want to start a new thread.:shades:

Mr teX
07-24-2007, 01:01 PM
They still had to take a cap hit for his pro-rated signing bonus. They were able to tear up the contract but not the salary cap implications of his signing bonus that had already been paid. If you give a big signing bonus to a scumbag who could be trouble and then he gets in trouble, you have to pay the piper.

In other words, the owner gets to keep his money and in some cases try and get it back in court (see Ricky Williams and Dolphins situation), but the money left from his signing bonuses must get charged off within a 2 year period.

From what Chicken Little err John Clayton said, the Falcons would be hit with $12 million cap hit this season and a $15 million next year for a player that isn't even on the team anymore. Foley just didn't have the largest signing bonus in history like Vick did, so the cap hit was negligible.

The Falcons best bet would be to release Vick, start DJ Shockley to appease the local fans and the African-American fans who think this is all some big conspiracy by 'the man' and then the team would suck and they would have a shot at reuniting Brohm from Louisville with his college coach, Petrino.

fwiw- kudos to Goodell to take a proactive stance and not let Vick report to camp. Vick gave up his league membership when he started hanging out with felons and dog murderers....ultimately becoming one himself.


The team was gonna suck regardless, but you & both know it's not a guarantee that they would be able to get brohm. I think at this point, shockley deserves a shot just by virtue of already being there.

swtbound07
07-24-2007, 01:14 PM
vick will still play. If they could have suspended him, they would have already. Goodell has been going over the union contract with a fine tooth comb, and they can't suspend him. The falcons could, but won't destroy their season and ticket sales. Its a business. I expect the falcons to give vick time, and DUE PROCESS, and then he will play out the season while awaiting his not guilty verdict. If purge-crazy goodell could have axed vick, he would have, ergo he won't.

Vinny
07-24-2007, 01:22 PM
vick will still play. If they could have suspended him, they would have already. Goodell has been going over the union contract with a fine tooth comb, and they can't suspend him. The falcons could, but won't destroy their season and ticket sales. Its a business. I expect the falcons to give vick time, and DUE PROCESS, and then he will play out the season while awaiting his not guilty verdict. If purge-crazy goodell could have axed vick, he would have, ergo he won't.

I don't think he plays this year at all after reading the 18 page indictment. Vick is done. He may be done forever.

Blazing Arrow
07-24-2007, 01:22 PM
They still had to take a cap hit for his pro-rated signing bonus. They were able to tear up the contract but not the salary cap implications of his signing bonus that had already been paid. If you give a big signing bonus to a scumbag who could be trouble and then he gets in trouble, you have to pay the piper.

In other words, the owner gets to keep his money and in some cases try and get it back in court (see Ricky Williams and Dolphins situation), but the money left from his signing bonuses must get charged off within a 2 year period.

From what Chicken Little err John Clayton said, the Falcons would be hit with $12 million cap hit this season and a $15 million next year for a player that isn't even on the team anymore. Foley just didn't have the largest signing bonus in history like Vick did, so the cap hit was negligible.

The Falcons best bet would be to release Vick, start DJ Shockley to appease the local fans and the African-American fans who think this is all some big conspiracy by 'the man' and then the team would suck and they would have a shot at reuniting Brohm from Louisville with his college coach, Petrino.

fwiw- kudos to Goodell to take a proactive stance and not let Vick report to camp. Vick gave up his league membership when he started hanging out with felons and dog murderers....ultimately becoming one himself.

What about the Freeny situation in Indi? I know they were trying to pull the same thing on him for his knee injury. He was not to deap into that contract and the Colts definatly cannot afford to let money like that sit on a player they do not have.

Vinny
07-24-2007, 01:24 PM
What about the Freeny situation in Indi? I know they were trying to pull the same thing on him for his knee injury. He was not to deap into that contract and the Colts definatly cannot afford to let money like that sit on a player they do not have.The Colts just resigned Freeney.

Texan_Bill
07-24-2007, 01:26 PM
Vick will be sitting this season out. And the players union won't be able to do a thing about it. Besides everyone knows that Upshaw is in the Owners back pocket anyway.. The NFLPA is a joke and has no real power like MLB's PA has...

Porky
07-24-2007, 01:30 PM
vick will still play. If they could have suspended him, they would have already. Goodell has been going over the union contract with a fine tooth comb, and they can't suspend him. The falcons could, but won't destroy their season and ticket sales. Its a business. I expect the falcons to give vick time, and DUE PROCESS, and then he will play out the season while awaiting his not guilty verdict. If purge-crazy goodell could have axed vick, he would have, ergo he won't.


It must be nice to live in your fantasy world. I predict Vick will never play another down in the NFL again. Maybe the CFL would take him, but I doubt it. No team is going to want the stench that is Mick Vick following the team. Besides that, he will be in prison. Maybe he will star in the new production of the Longest Yard. :devilpig:

swtbound07
07-24-2007, 01:36 PM
It must be nice to live in your fantasy world. I predict Vick will never play another down in the NFL again. Maybe the CFL would take him, but I doubt it. No team is going to want the stench that is Mick Vick following the team. Besides that, he will be in prison. Maybe he will star in the new production of the Longest Yard. :devilpig:

if he could suspend vick, why isn't vick already suspended. He hasn't failed to swiftly deal justice in other instances. Answer me that.

Vinny
07-24-2007, 01:38 PM
if he could suspend vick, why isn't vick already suspended. He hasn't failed to swiftly deal justice in other instances. Answer me that.
first time offender...but he isn't convicted yet. If you read the Commish's statement he clearly states that he is reviewing the case and that he doesn't have to be convicted to get tossed from the league if it violates the personal conduct policy. Your microwave attention span wants instant results....some things need to be looked at closely so you don't rush out and make knee-jerk decisions. I'd think this is one of them.

Porky
07-24-2007, 01:39 PM
"MANY" VIEW VICK AS DONE

A source who holds a fairly high-level position with one of the 32 NFL franchises tells us that "many" folks in the league think that Michael Vick will never play again in the NFL.

We've suspected that, even if Vick is acquitted of all pending federal charges and possible state charges, he likely won't find a home with another NFL team. For starters, he's simply not that good of a passer. And once his legs start to go, he'll be just another guy. When you match those skills with the fact that any team that signs him will instantly be targeted for protests and harassment, we can't imagine anyone touching him.

Not even that widely-regard haven for miscreants situated on the eastern rim of the San Francisco Bay.

If Vick is convicted after a public trial involving detailed testimony of dog fights and canine killings, he won't be back, either.

We still believe that his only hope is to strike a deal now, do his time, throw himself at the mercy of the fans and the league, and hope for redemption. I mean, if Marv Albert can return to the top of the broadcasting food chain, Vick should at least get a crack at playing pro ball again once he wraps up his tenure with the Mean Machine.

Even then, however, we're not sure that he'd find any takers. The allegations against Vick are probably too unusual and too heinous to allow him to ever be regarded as a guy on which an NFL franchise can justify taking a risk.

link (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

Specnatz
07-24-2007, 01:47 PM
if he could suspend vick, why isn't vick already suspended. He hasn't failed to swiftly deal justice in other instances. Answer me that.

He may not be suspended, but he has been told to not report to camp. I am sorry your gambling habit is going to take a hit because your boyyyyy will not be playing this year.