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Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 03:44 PM
here is the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2931784&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab2pos1

very balanced and is probably the first national article I have read about the whole Carr situation that seems to have had any research done on it. It comes across as being both sympathetic to Carr's situation while with the Texans while being critical of him and his shortcomings. Good read.

This quote from Carr is very indicting of the Texans brass. When asked about why the Texans drafted Mario Williams he said:

"People are always going to ask why," Carr says, "and I'm one of those people." ouch :( sometimes the truth hurts

I hope Mario reads that quote before every game. Mario's locker needs to have stuff like this pasted all over his locker. He needs some fire.

TexanSam
07-12-2007, 04:08 PM
Very good article. At times it makes me feel bad for the guy, but he didn't step up like the article says. After 5 years and crap talent to play with though, I'm guessing even if the best of QB's were in the same situation they may have had the same mindset. After reading this article it makes me wonder how good Carr could have been had he had decent coaches from the beginning. What if Kubiak had gotten the job instead of Capers?

Texan_Bill
07-12-2007, 04:15 PM
Great article and good find SH.. I agree, the article was a pretty fair and balanced analysis.

On another note, I lurked over at one of the Carolina message boards and didn't see anything about the article....
:hmmm:

Double Barrel
07-12-2007, 04:17 PM
I wish Carr all the best with Carolina. :)

Interesting note about McNair asking candidates how they would use Bush. Is that substantiated or just speculation? To ask such a question but fail to seal the deal on RB just seems strange to me.

p.s.

"People are always going to ask why," Carr says, "and I'm one of those people."

Another strange quote. He was here. He knew about the holdout and how McNair felt about it. It wasn't that long ago. It seems peculiar to bring up the topic in an article devoted to Carr and his mechanics and new team.

Ryan
07-12-2007, 04:22 PM
that really is a sad story. We often don't even think about the players as people. I wish him all the best in Carolina and hope he does well as long as he isn't playing us.

petedy
07-12-2007, 04:40 PM
It is a very good article about how inept Capers and Casserly were for the Texans.I guess Andre was right when he said Carr wasn't taught anything until Kubiak got there.Also the article refers to how Kubiak mislead McNair about his feelings of Carr and how he would use Reggie Bush.Kubiak also mislead Sage about taking control of the team when David was released.The article also showed the friction between Kubiak and Carr.Kubiak's intention was all along planning to unload Carr but played him one season so he could tell McNair he tried to work with Carr but that Carr was to far gone from all the sacks he took and couldn't fix him.

Honoring Earl 34
07-12-2007, 04:41 PM
I see many different things

1. Mechanics are really important if your OL stinks .

2. Do not draft a QB first if your head coach is defensive minded .

3. Do not draft a QB and throw him into the fire ... that's what Kent Graham was for .

4. I think being to good natured can be a bad thing in sports .

5. It's that believing what you see and knowing your great that seperates QBs ... that he did'nt have or it was knocked out of him .

6. I think Bush would have helped but he would have taken a pounding also . Carr was not good at getting the ball where a player gets it on the run in space .

Honoring Earl 34
07-12-2007, 04:46 PM
It is a very good article about how inept Capers and Casserly were for the Texans.I guess Andre was right when he said Carr wasn't taught anything until Kubiak got there.Also the article refers to how Kubiak mislead McNair about his feelings of Carr and how he would use Reggie Bush.Kubiak also mislead Sage about taking control of the team when David was released.The article also showed the friction between Kubiak and Carr.Kubiak's intention was all along planning to unload Carr but played him one season so he could tell McNair he tried to work with Carr but that Carr was to far gone from all the sacks he took and couldn't fix him.

You give Kubiak a lot of credit .

Vinny
07-12-2007, 04:48 PM
While Carr was publicly applauded for leading the NFL in completion percentage, his coaches privately dismissed it. According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards. They exploded on him, berating him in front of teammates. Carr, true to his style, rarely reciprocated with any emotion. But what was once seen as a cool demeanor was now perceived as indifference, which made the coaches angrier. It got so bad that other players in the huddle could hear coaches yelling at Carr through his helmet earpiece. "He never blamed anyone, he never pointed the finger," says Texans left tackle Eric Winston. "But it would be impossible for it not to wear on him."

good dude...lousy QB. I hope he gets it together. He has all the body you want in a NFL QB.

Honoring Earl 34
07-12-2007, 04:53 PM
Carr, true to his style, rarely reciprocated with any emotion. But what was once seen as a cool demeanor was now perceived as indifference

indifference , the lack of emotion, motivation, or enthusiasm; a psychological term for a state of indifference .

I guess it was time for a break .

nunusguy
07-12-2007, 04:56 PM
"Broncos offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak had all the right answers. Kubiak even told McNair he was sure the Texans could win a Super Bowl with Carr as their quarterback. So McNair picked up Carr's $8 million option."
************************************************** ***
Excellect story in general, but I would take exception with this critical segment of the authors account of how it all went down.
Kubiak may have said he could win with Carr because he realized that's what McNair wanted to hear rather than a frank opinion, but I tend to agree with the version that says McNair had a predisposition about what call to make on Carr's option and didn't make it on the basis of Kubiaks opinion.

mexican_texan
07-12-2007, 04:57 PM
I wish Carr all the best with Carolina. :)

Interesting note about McNair asking candidates how they would use Bush. Is that substantiated or just speculation? To ask such a question but fail to seal the deal on RB just seems strange to me.

p.s.



Another strange quote. He was here. He knew about the holdout and how McNair felt about it. It wasn't that long ago. It seems peculiar to bring up the topic in an article devoted to Carr and his mechanics and new team.
No he wasn't. He's admitted that he never worked out in the off season unless he had to in mini or training camps.

HoustonFrog
07-12-2007, 04:58 PM
good dude...lousy QB. I hope he gets it together. He has all the body you want in a NFL QB.

I agree.

Great article.

One thing that some people said before his release and I'm starting to see a little of now in his quotes is a little immaturity. You can tell he enjoys throwing out the zingers, etc and I think he still skirts some of his own responsibility. Overall though I hope we are all in better shape.

real
07-12-2007, 05:09 PM
.Also the article refers to how Kubiak mislead McNair about his feelings of Carr and how he would use Reggie Bush.

I've let my feelings about this situation be known for a while:


I don't think Kubiak ever believed Carr to be a good QB, capable of taking this team to the next level....

I think the reason that Kubiak left Carr in even when it was evident that we played better with Sage, was because he wanted to showcase what Carr could do and he did nothing...

I think the main person that needed to be convinced David was not the QB for us was Mr. Mcnair...By leaving David in and putting pressure on him it showed his inability to respond...

No more questions about it; he isn't that good...time to move on...

eriadoc
07-12-2007, 05:09 PM
They exploded on him, berating him in front of teammates. Carr, true to his style, rarely reciprocated with any emotion. But what was once seen as a cool demeanor was now perceived as indifference, which made the coaches angrier. It got so bad that other players in the huddle could hear coaches yelling at Carr through his helmet earpiece. "He never blamed anyone, he never pointed the finger," says Texans left tackle Eric Winston. "But it would be impossible for it not to wear on him."

It's noteworthy that (according to this guy's source), Carr maintained his demeanor, and yet the perception of that demeanor changed.

And the quote from Winston is really why I cut Carr some slack. The game of football is so team-oriented and intertwined that no one player can affect the game to the degree that Carr would have had to. The team around him was a combination of bad and injured, and Carr took it all with style.

Yeah, he has his lumps, and he certainly doesn't have his mind right. But I always think back to that first season and remember the throws he would make and try, and those things were just beaten out of him over the years. The Texans are more responsible for where DC is right now (mentally) than he is, IMO. That doesn't change where he is, however.

Runner
07-12-2007, 05:30 PM
One thing that some people said before his release and I'm starting to see a little of now in his quotes is a little immaturity. You can tell he enjoys throwing out the zingers,

Pretty mild zingers, if you ask me. He has a lot of legitimate complaints with the team, just as the team had with him. I think he is remarkably restrained, but I guess for those that hate all things Carr, that would be indifference again. Immaturity if he says anything, indifference if he doesn't.

My opinion is the early sacks hurt Carr, and his reactions to them hurt himself even more. He couldn't mentally overcome the past as the team improved.

There were many things I thought he could done, especially while the Capers crew was still here and Carr was still the golden boy, even with the fans. I thought this is where his lack of "leadership" showed itself. When the plays started getting repetitive and simple at the end of 2004, he should have changed them in the huddle. Lots of players would have supported that. When Pendry gave Riley the left tackle job in 2005, Carr should have demanded a change. Everyone could see Riley wasn't up to it on the field, although Pendry liked wielding the power. The players aren't blind; when Riley was on pace to give up 28 sacks or whatever after the first 2-3 games and still starting, they probably realized Palmer wasn't the problem coach. That season went into the tank, early and deep.

There are a lot of players on the Texans who think "why Mario". They just won't throw a teammate under the bus. Dunta may have said a few things about Carr, but generally the team has been more restrained.

Fiddy
07-12-2007, 05:35 PM
According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards. Holy crap.

Porky
07-12-2007, 05:35 PM
I can sum all this up in two words.

Carr's garbage.

:gun:

Runner
07-12-2007, 05:38 PM
According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards. Holy crap.

So I guess we can count on an extra 500 yards from Andre this year, just as a baseline. Other improvements in the offense should net even more. I can't wait!

DBCooper
07-12-2007, 05:40 PM
Someone posted this link in the comments section of the ESPN article:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MMd3FdudDH0

(I hope it was someone from this board.)


Now I'm pumped for the season!

When's Training Camp? lol

HOU-TEX
07-12-2007, 05:45 PM
So I guess we can count on an extra 500 yards from Andre this year, just as a baseline. Other improvements in the offense should net even more. I can't wait!

Hmm, do I sense a hint of sarcasm here?:shades:

HoustonFrog
07-12-2007, 05:49 PM
Pretty mild zingers, if you ask me. He has a lot of legitimate complaints with the team, just as the team had with him. I think he is remarkably restrained, but I guess for those that hate all things Carr, that would be indifference again. Immaturity if he says anything, indifference if he doesn't.

I don't hate all things Carr and wish him the best. I just think that since he has left he has taken very veiled shots at the O-line, and other areas of the team. As you said, I think they could do the same if they wanted. To me, both sides should just say it didn't work and move on. Its pretty basic but of course people are going to start with the old "Hater" "lover" thing again. Its an observation.

nunusguy
07-12-2007, 05:57 PM
When Pendry gave Riley the left tackle job in 2005, Carr should have demanded a change.
After the fiasco in Reliant with the Browns which was the 2004 finale and McNair guaranteed on Channel 13s Bob Allen show that he would see that Carr was protected, the owner should have been the first one to instruct
Casserly/Capers that Pendrys idea of Riley as salvation for LT was BS.
McNair is so much a part of how Carr's career here was bungled.

Runner
07-12-2007, 05:58 PM
Hmm, do I sense a hint of sarcasm here?:shades:

I was too lazy to hit the sarcasm thingy.

Or else I finally believe we have gotten our desideratum - a high octane offense.

Runner
07-12-2007, 06:07 PM
After the fiasco in Reliant with the Browns which was the 2004 finale and McNair guaranteed on Channel 13s Bob Allen show that he would see that Carr was protected, the owner should have been the first one to instruct
Casserly/Capers that Pendrys idea of Riley as salvation for LT was BS.
McNair is so much a part of how Carr's career here was bungled.

True. I'm still amazed at how that coaching staff had all of the players cowed. Everyone seemed to watch out for themselves, with little sense of team.

HOU-TEX
07-12-2007, 06:17 PM
I was too lazy to hit the sarcasm thingy.

Or else I finally believe we have gotten our desideratum - a high octane offense.

Well, after reading previous posts from you questioning Oline personel moves and talent level, I'm willing to bet it was sarcasm.

I'm still on the fence on the Oline. I do think we'll be better as a whole offensively.:shades:

rickyb
07-12-2007, 06:18 PM
So...

Can anyone doubt what game one Mr. Mario Wms has circled on this year's schedule?

Runner
07-12-2007, 06:24 PM
Can anyone doubt what game one Mr. Mario Wms has circled on this year's schedule?

And will it make any difference?

All sarcasm aside, I do have high hopes for the defense. They will be solid this year. I just don't think their success will be based on Mario as much as DeMeco and others.

Double Barrel
07-12-2007, 06:24 PM
True. I'm still amazed at how that coaching staff had all of the players cowed. Everyone seemed to watch out for themselves, with little sense of team.

And the crazy thing is how such horrible, horrible (yes, that's double-horrible) coaches could ever land another job, must less in the NFL.

If they can ruin an amazing talent like Carr, what could owners possible be thinking in letting these imbeciles near their own multi-million dollar investments?

None other than Jerry Jones, he of three Super Bowl trophies and one fine looking future stadium, is letting Chris Palmer near his franchise QB Tony Romo!! Somebody get on the horn quick and tell Mr. Jones that he needs to be very careful lest this unqualified hack ruin another fine talent.

DBCooper
07-12-2007, 06:25 PM
I was too lazy to hit the sarcasm thingy.

Or else I finally believe we have gotten our desideratum - a high octane offense.


What a contrast in vocabulary.

lol

My word for today is - desideratum

Runner
07-12-2007, 06:27 PM
And the crazy thing is how such horrible, horrible (yes, that's double-horrible) coaches could ever land another job, must less in the NFL.

If they can ruin an amazing talent like Carr, what could owners possible be thinking in letting these imbeciles near their own multi-million dollar investments?

None other than Jerry Jones, he of three Super Bowl trophies and one fine looking future stadium, is letting Chris Palmer near his franchise QB Tony Romo!! Somebody get on the horn quick and tell Mr. Jones that he needs to be very careful lest this unqualified hack ruin another fine talent.

Well, Palmer was the one they fired to keep Pendry. He must have something going for him.

Capers has a job in the NFL, Palmer, is that it? I think it is.

Honoring Earl 34
07-12-2007, 06:32 PM
True. I'm still amazed at how that coaching staff had all of the players cowed. Everyone seemed to watch out for themselves, with little sense of team.

How many of those players were just drawing a paycheck . They had it good ... why rock the boat .

Double Barrel
07-12-2007, 06:37 PM
Well, Palmer was the one they fired to keep Pendry. He must have something going for him.

Palmer was here for the first three years, though. And he's the one that really tried to "fix" Carr's mechanics (I recall the ladder drill).

Pendry did not have a chance to help Carr because Palmer was such a double-horrible coach and the o-line has been the.worst.evar, even since before the history of the NFL.

[Insert random disclaimer here]

Honoring Earl 34
07-12-2007, 06:44 PM
Pendry did not have a chance to help Carr because Palmer was such a double-horrible coach and the o-line has been the.worst.evar, even since before the history of the NFL.



I can't tell if this is a :sarcasm: war or not .

I think Palmer's rep at that time was good . I think he had Carr starting out trying to throw over ladders . When Carr got excited he reverted back to his old ways of arm dropping low ... hey maybe that's why he fumbles so much ... doooh .

Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 06:57 PM
indifference , the lack of emotion, motivation, or enthusiasm; a psychological term for a state of indifference .

I guess it was time for a break .

one of the biggest problems I have had with Carr was always his front running and his indifference. he was all 'rah rah' when we scored or had a lead but he would never show the fire or desire to turn things around when they were bad. maybe it just wasn't possible for him to do.

Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 07:06 PM
And the crazy thing is how such horrible, horrible (yes, that's double-horrible) coaches could ever land another job, must less in the NFL.
If they can ruin an amazing talent like Carr, what could owners possible be thinking in letting these imbeciles near their own multi-million dollar investments?

None other than Jerry Jones, he of three Super Bowl trophies and one fine looking future stadium, is letting Chris Palmer near his franchise QB Tony Romo!! Somebody get on the horn quick and tell Mr. Jones that he needs to be very careful lest this unqualified hack ruin another fine talent.

yeah it is crazy how these horrible career ruining coaches have landed other jobs and had much success to boot....

at the end of the day, the reason Carr hasn't had success in the NFL is because its not important enough to him. if it was important to him, he would have put in the extra work both at the training facility and on his own. if it was important to him he would have prepared like NFL QBs are supposed to. He has priorities in his life and football isnt one of them. never has been.

I think its funny how the author said that the Carolina OC pledging not to mess with his delivery was a key reason Carr decided on Carolina. This shows just how immature a player he is. The guy just isn't a professional. If something is holding you back from having success, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. He just stays the course and I guess he has upwards of 50million reasons in the bank for him to stay the course.

I feel sorry for any Panthers fan who thinks he is a positive pieceto their team. I would rather have a Chris Weinke anyday. And thats sayin a lot.

brakos82
07-12-2007, 07:28 PM
I can sum all this up in two words.

Carr's garbage.

:gun:

I woulda gone with "Ocho Stinko," but alright.

Vinny
07-12-2007, 08:03 PM
And the crazy thing is how such horrible, horrible (yes, that's double-horrible) coaches could ever land another job, must less in the NFL.

If they can ruin an amazing talent like Carr, what could owners possible be thinking in letting these imbeciles near their own multi-million dollar investments?

None other than Jerry Jones, he of three Super Bowl trophies and one fine looking future stadium, is letting Chris Palmer near his franchise QB Tony Romo!! Somebody get on the horn quick and tell Mr. Jones that he needs to be very careful lest this unqualified hack ruin another fine talent.

Palmer is the same coach that led Mark Brunell and Drew Bledsoe to some of their best years. I'm not sure either QB has had much success after Palmer..sometimes it's just the player regardless how hard we want to demonize the coaches for their failures. I mean, this is the same player that Sherman said blew around 500 yards of production throwing the ball to Andre Johnson last season alone. This wasn't Sherman's fault was it?

the wonger need food
07-12-2007, 08:03 PM
Here's a good article about our former QB and how the Texans handled him.

A few interesting snippets....


While Carr was publicly applauded for leading the NFL in completion percentage, his coaches privately dismissed it. According to one former staffer, Kubiak and offensive coordinator Mike Sherman estimated that Carr's panicked progressions cost Johnson at least 500 receiving yards. They exploded on him, berating him in front of teammates. Carr, true to his style, rarely reciprocated with any emotion. But what was once seen as a cool demeanor was now perceived as indifference, which made the coaches angrier. It got so bad that other players in the huddle could hear coaches yelling at Carr through his helmet earpiece. "He never blamed anyone, he never pointed the finger," says Texans left tackle Eric Winston. "But it would be impossible for it not to wear on him."


Carr was benched during a midseason loss to the Titans, and even though he returned to start every remaining game, he knew his Houston career was over. Everyone did. "Kubiak wanted to see if Carr stepped up," an ex-Texans staffer says. "He didn't."


But everyone knows what happened next: Houston opted for defensive end Mario Williams. "People are always going to ask why," Carr says, "and I'm one of those people." Still, with Kubiak there was reason to be optimistic. The new coach taught Carr to slow down, to breathe as he read his progressions, to trust. Then a starting lineman went down in September -- meaning Carr would have to set up behind a patched pocket for the fifth year in a row -- and the QB reverted to his old ways. He knew it but was too beaten down to do anything about it. He had happy feet, rushed his passes, wondered as he threw whether his release was high enough. Carr was, he says, "just trying to survive."


Not surprisingly, reconfiguring his mechanics didn't do much to help ease the pressure -- Carr was the league's most-sacked passer during three of his first four years -- or help his psyche. "It was a travesty, what happened to him," says Niners backup Trent Dilfer, who's known Carr for 15 years. "It's what happens when you have coaches who don't understand the quarterback position."


The fact that Carr had to be released was humiliating, not only for him but also for the Texans. The team had to take a $6 million cap hit and part with two draft picks for his replacement, Matt Schaub, who got a six-year, $48 million contract despite just two career starts. That no one, not a single team, would trade for Carr was a rather loud rebuke, one that confirmed what most scouts whispered only off the record: He was too damaged to recover from the unprecedented beating he suffered in Houston, which included 76 sacks in 2002 -- Carr's lone NFL record.

Kaiser Toro
07-12-2007, 08:14 PM
Positive obituary for our former QB. Kubiak is definitely in charge.

BattleRedToro
07-12-2007, 08:26 PM
This wasn't Sherman's fault was it?

No, but for a man that is supposed to be a great O-line coach his O-line sucked last year.

Vinny
07-12-2007, 08:28 PM
No, but for a man that is supposed to be a great O-line coach his O-line sucked last year.
looks like he got rid of his incredible self-sacking QB....seems to me that he considered Carr quite the problem since he made a heck of a comment about leaving 500 yards on the table plus they didn't draft a lineman on the first day....and nobody offered up even a 7th rounder for David Carr.

Runner
07-12-2007, 08:39 PM
plus they didn't draft a lineman on the first day....

That line is part of the obituary for the Capers staff. The Texans sure hope it isn't part of Kubiak's in a couple of years.

I still wonder what they would have done if Levi Brown had been there when they picked.

Vinny
07-12-2007, 08:42 PM
That line is part of the obituary for the Capers staff. The Texans sure hope it isn't part of Kubiak's in a couple of years.

I still wonder what they would have done if Levi Brown had been there when they picked.I donno, but if you think Spencer can play the position once he is fully healed, you don't go out and take another LT and pay him top ten money. We are still a year or so away from the playoffs (may make a run this year if it all breaks right) and next season is going to be a deep draft for lineman...so I think they did the right thing for the long haul.

Runner
07-12-2007, 09:21 PM
We are still a year or so away from the playoffs (may make a run this year if it all breaks right) and next season is going to be a deep draft for lineman...so I think they did the right thing for the long haul.


If the defense is as good as I think it might be, next year might be used on a lot of offense.

I just hope they don't need "just one more" defensive lineman next year to help them all get pressure. :cool:

Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 09:52 PM
I donno, but if you think Spencer can play the position once he is fully healed, you don't go out and take another LT and pay him top ten money. We are still a year or so away from the playoffs (may make a run this year if it all breaks right) and next season is going to be a deep draft for lineman...so I think they did the right thing for the long haul.

they could have used a 4th round in the Supplemental and gotten Gaither. They could have probably bid a 5th round and got him because the Ravens did with a 5th round. It's obvious they dont think the OL is the problem or are in deep denial.

BattleRedToro
07-12-2007, 09:54 PM
they could have used a 4th round in the Supplemental and gotten Gaither. They could have probably bid a 5th round and got him because the Ravens did with a 5th round. It's obvious they dont think the OL is the problem or are in deep denial.

I'd say they are in deep denial.

Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 10:02 PM
I'd say they are in deep denial.

i will give them the benefit of the doubt as a fan, but this is Year 2 of the Kubiak Experiment. They better be right about the OL, their QB prospect, Mario, and Amobi. So far Kubes gets a C- grade and Rick Smith has a B+ grade. I say we give Kubes 3 years total to prove his worth then maybe make a big run at a Cowher or Jimmah.

If the OL and offense don't show marked improvement this year and we fail to become a playoff contender during Kubiak's 3rd year, it will be time to consider some new head coaching candidates. I hope that isn't the case as I would like to see Kubiak here for the next decade (which would mean we would be making positive steps and putting a competitive product on the field)

The1ApplePie
07-12-2007, 10:10 PM
A Good article that shows that both:

Carr Screwed the Texans (Lack of leadership)

Texans Screwed Carr (No Reggie, no O-line help, no offensive help besides AJ)

It will be interesting to see what Carr can do with a great line, Jarrett, Smith, Foster, and DeAngelo Williams

Second Honeymoon
07-12-2007, 10:12 PM
A Good article that shows that both:

Carr Screwed the Texans (Lack of leadership)

Texans Screwed Carr (No Reggie, no O-line help, no offensive help besides AJ)

It will be interesting to see what Carr can do with a great line, Jarrett, Smith, Foster, and DeAngelo Williams

great line? not so fast there buddy :)

the Panthers line has more proven talent than the Texans but its not an elite OL. its an average to good OL. They do have some talent at RB and WR though.

BattleRedToro
07-12-2007, 10:20 PM
David Carr's principal problem wasn't a lack of leadership, or a drive to win, or bad throwin mechanics. David Carr's problem was his lack of trust in his O-line's ability to pass block. This ultimately led to his eye-level being low as he dropped back to pass, and that prevented him from correctly picking up open receivers on short routes, which is all he had time to throw. Contrary to the common fallacious criticism of David Carr not throwing deep routes, the O-line rarely could pass block long enough to allow receivers to run deep routes. They did however block long enough to allow 3 step drop immediately thrown short routes, but David Carr's low eye-level often prevented him from making these plays. I'm afraid many of you are overly optomistic about how the offense will operate next year. I expect Matt Schaub, if he is able to maintain the correct eye-level, to throw mostly immediate passes. I doubt I will hear the same complaints about the lack of deep routes even though the Texans will probably throw just as few deep routes next year as they did last year. If Schaub can do this and the Texans can establish a consistent running game, then he has a chance to be moderately successful. The other big question is how will Schaub react to getting hit, assuming he doesn't get injured. Will he shift his focus to the line, as David Carr did, instead of concentrating on his receivers.

Runner
07-12-2007, 10:59 PM
they could have used a 4th round in the Supplemental and gotten Gaither. They could have probably bid a 5th round and got him because the Ravens did with a 5th round. It's obvious they dont think the OL is the problem or are in deep denial.

I think they have enough mediocre lineman on the roster going into camp, and adding a couple of more probably didn't make much sense to them. Much like the draft (value players unavailable when the Texans picked) and free agency (lack of money to fill all needs), maybe the just haven't had the opportunity because of other constraints/needs to pick up better lineman this year.

Just because they couldn't fix the o-line doesn't mean they didn't need to. They better have it addressed next year though.

HoustonFrog
07-12-2007, 11:14 PM
David Carr's principal problem wasn't a lack of leadership, or a drive to win, or bad throwin mechanics. David Carr's problem was his lack of trust in his O-line's ability to pass block. This ultimately led to his eye-level being low as he dropped back to pass, and that prevented him from correctly picking up open receivers on short routes, which is all he had time to throw. Contrary to the common fallacious criticism of David Carr not throwing deep routes, the O-line rarely could pass block long enough to allow receivers to run deep routes. They did however block long enough to allow 3 step drop immediately thrown short routes, but David Carr's low eye-level often prevented him from making these plays. I'm afraid many of you are overly optomistic about how the offense will operate next year. I expect Matt Schaub, if he is able to maintain the correct eye-level, to throw mostly immediate passes. I doubt I will hear the same complaints about the lack of deep routes even though the Texans will probably throw just as few deep routes next year as they did last year. If Schaub can do this and the Texans can establish a consistent running game, then he has a chance to be moderately successful. The other big question is how will Schaub react to getting hit, assuming he doesn't get injured. Will he shift his focus to the line, as David Carr did, instead of concentrating on hi receivers.

Wow, that is alot that everyone did to destroy him:sarcasm:

BattleRedToro
07-12-2007, 11:54 PM
Wow, that is alot that everyone did to destroy him:sarcasm:

Nice response to honest analysis of both David Carr's and the O-line's shortcomings. :sarcasm:

Double Barrel
07-13-2007, 12:07 AM
I can't tell if this is a :sarcasm: war or not .

I think Palmer's rep at that time was good . I think he had Carr starting out trying to throw over ladders . When Carr got excited he reverted back to his old ways of arm dropping low ... hey maybe that's why he fumbles so much ... doooh .

Yes, my friend, that was sarcasm. The coaches can share the blame, but I cannot believe that they are to blame.

Palmer is the same coach that led Mark Brunell and Drew Bledsoe to some of their best years. I'm not sure either QB has had much success after Palmer..sometimes it's just the player regardless how hard we want to demonize the coaches for their failures. I mean, this is the same player that Sherman said blew around 500 yards of production throwing the ball to Andre Johnson last season alone. This wasn't Sherman's fault was it?

Well, it certainly not Carr's fault, 'eh? :shades:

I thought that was probably one of the most brutally honest comments that I've read from a coach about any player, too.

That line is part of the obituary for the Capers staff. The Texans sure hope it isn't part of Kubiak's in a couple of years.

Strange thing is that 3 of our o-linemen from 2002 are still on the team.

David Carr's principal problem wasn't a lack of leadership, or a drive to win, or bad throwin mechanics. David Carr's problem was his lack of trust in his O-line's ability to pass block. This ultimately led to his eye-level being low as he dropped back to pass, and that prevented him from correctly picking up open receivers on short routes, which is all he had time to throw. Contrary to the common fallacious criticism of David Carr not throwing deep routes, the O-line rarely could pass block long enough to allow receivers to run deep routes.

The line was good enough to block for him in 2004 when he got over 3500 yards passing, and DD/DW rushed for 1000. I think his rookie season certainly had an impact on his mental game, but it wasn't enough to prevent him from showing something at one point. It was downhill from there, though.

BattleRedToro
07-13-2007, 12:13 AM
The line was good enough to block for him in 2004 when he got over 3500 yards passing, and DD/DW rushed for 1000. I think his rookie season certainly had an impact on his mental game, but it wasn't enough to prevent him from showing something at one point. It was downhill from there, though.

I was talking about last year, not 2004. They weren't all the same players on the O-line in 2007 and 2004. David Carr has problems, but that line has problems, too.

brakos82
07-13-2007, 12:17 AM
TOO MUCH READING! :panic:

ReliantTexan
07-13-2007, 12:26 AM
You know, I've always thought that the line was the main reason for all those sacks,but when we played the Tacks last year in Nashville I watched DC turn the ball over 5 times and constantly get rattled and then Sage came in and it all changed. He had poise, he was making good decision, and our Oline looked pretty decent.That game really stood out for me with the Oline.

BattleRedToro
07-13-2007, 12:47 AM
You know, I've always thought that the line was the main reason for all those sacks,but when we played the Tacks last year in Nashville I watched DC turn the ball over 5 times and constantly get rattled and then Sage came in and it all changed. He had poise, he was making good decision, and our Oline looked pretty decent.That game really stood out for me with the Oline.

Sage played better because his eye-level was correct and so he was able to get rid of the ball quickly to open recievers, but the O-line was still not good enough to allow Sage to throw deep often until the game was essentially already over.

Wolf
07-13-2007, 12:54 AM
Sage played better because his eye-level was correct and so he was able to get rid of the ball quickly to open recievers, but the O-line was still not good enough to allow Sage to throw deep often until the game was essentially already over.

also Titans defense didn't play the same esp with them so far up and even when we scored, the Titan offense scored anyway to counter our score.

Not picking on anyone, but if Sage was the answer (in Kubiak's eyes) we wouldn't have traded for Matt

Vinny
07-13-2007, 12:56 AM
Sage played better because his eye-level was correct and so he was able to get rid of the ball quickly to open recievers, but the O-line was still not good enough to allow Sage to throw deep often until the game was essentially already over.

His eye level was correct? Where do you guys get some of this stuff from? quite a few of us actually tape these games you know. Can we just accept the fact that Sage played better than Carr did with the same line...in the same game...against the same defense? Just because you can type it doesn't mean it is reality based.

2BCF
07-13-2007, 01:14 AM
His eye level was correct? Where do you guys get some of this stuff from? quite a few of us actually tape these games you know. Can we just accept the fact that Sage played better than Carr did with the same line...in the same game...against the same defense? Just because you can type it doesn't mean it is reality based.

No, that makes too much sense.

It must have been Carr's shoes.
If only Carr had the right shoes, Sage's magic shoes, then he could have played better too.

Texanmike02
07-13-2007, 04:16 AM
Thankfully its been a while since I've had to engage in a Carr debate. I think the marriage was a disaster from the beginning. I've often said that Capers was the wrong guy for the job after year 3. He seems to me to be a great guy to start a franchise. He reminds me of the coach from the replacements... "lets keep it close... and try to steal it in the 4th quarter"... That works when you have guys that are just lucky to be on a roster. It doesn't work, however, once you have amassed NFL worthy talent, even if its only backup talent. I also often wondered (this is before I found either of the Texans fan sites) why we never had a real coordinator. Why we had a defensive minded coach, and we drafted a QB 1st over all. Not that I thought that Carr was a bad pick. I still think that he was wrong for the Texans, and they were wrong for him. I know he sacked himself sometimes... but I've watched every single game the Texans have played... and there was a time that he did show poise under pressure. I believe it was the 2nd or 3rd game of the season in our 2nd year... and we were backed up against our own goal line... when he was getting sacked in the endzone and had the presence of mind to stretch the football out and put it over the goal line, thus avoiding a safety. We ran the ball for a loss the very next play.. and a sack... but he made the right play. Don't forget the Sam Mack experiment...

All in all.. I think that we did make a mistake in drafting him... if we weren't going to build around him. Carr hater or Carr lover... I think that's the bottom line. We threw him into the fire.... which was probably a mistake... and then we didn't ever give him tools... especially coaching. I remember one time reading about a buzzer they put in his helmet in TC. that would go off after a given time.. that was his "get rid of the ball quickly training"... and thinking wow... if you want him to feel the rush... how is that helping... that was just prior to 05 I believe.

That said.. for whatever reason he never developed. Am I defending him? Maybe? Am I blaming him? Maybe... I think that honestly you have to do a little of both. I think both the Carr lovers and Carr haters are wrong to be honest... it is somewhere in the middle. Its entirely possible that we just got rid of Danny Wurrfel.... or Brett Farve... we may never know.... but what I do know for sure... is poor decisions made by the team will keep us from ever really knowing.

Mike

Runner
07-13-2007, 05:34 AM
Strange thing is that 3 of our o-linemen from 2002 are still on the team.


Not so strange when you consider the line is still a team weakness. Then again, changing the line for the sake of change isn't the solution either - it should only be changed by adding better players. Seems strange that has to be articulated, but:

The line was good enough to block for him in 2004 when he got over 3500 yards passing, and DD/DW rushed for 1000. I think his rookie season certainly had an impact on his mental game, but it wasn't enough to prevent him from showing something at one point. It was downhill from there, though.

That downhill from 2004 started with.....replacing Wand with Riley. That was the big change in offensive personnel to start the year. Nice move right there, Coach Pendry.

HoustonFrog
07-13-2007, 09:39 AM
Nice response to honest analysis of both David Carr's and the O-line's shortcomings. :sarcasm:

Sorry bro but your initial post reeked of excuses. I didn't want to write ANOTHER explanation of Carr so I'll Cut and paste my old posts. I've never been a "hater." I just never got the fascination with keeping an average QB around when guys like Aikman and others got pummeled their first year and still came out doing pretty well. I'm saddened that this has turned into another thread regarding his ups and downs and that we can't look forward to what we have and wish him the best. There is EQUAL culpability in many ways. The line wasn't great or good at times but he also contributed by not learning the basics of NFL QBing or putting in the work and that led to the line looking bad, even when they were doing adequate work.


I don't get alot of the arguments. Obviously Carr didn't succeed here. The NFL is a wasteland for QBs or high drafted players who didn't. I've never understood why people are so high on Carr yet never gave Couch the same benefit. Expansion, bad front office, line that got hurt and fell apart. They both had almost exact stats and failed. Yet people give Carr this free ticket while Couch is out of the league. There is an easy answer that makes alot of people happy...we move on without the question marks and improve and Carr does well as a backup and eventual player. If he doesn't, no loss. The fact of the matter is that most teams in NFL history haven't waited 5 years for a guy to learn basic QB skills. If he learns elsewhere, so be it. I'm not going to lie and say that I have been a huge Carr fan the last 2 years(I started that way) but I just think there is an attitude in some guys. I always read where Jordan, Montana, etc, etc..winners were competetive in everything from their sport to ping-pong. To me Carr is content to be the good guy who just smiles and deals with it. Good guy but I want the fire. I wanted to see pissed off guy. As fans overall though, the question should be "who is Carr" if we are winning games.


"I think Carr has alot of work to do. The three things that bother me the most or that I have observed over and over...(sorry, they are most likely repeats but 5 pages on a Saturday won't do)

1) Footwork-Happy feet is the key term. I'm sure most people who support him will say that it is because he got beat down but guys like Aikman did and survived. I would love to see him take the drop, sit in the pocket and be able to slide or look natural. He doesn't. Some might also put this in "pocket presence" but I look at it as all the same. The basic concept is keep the head scanning the field while being able to feel pressure and slide or step up.

2) General thinking--I'll get blasted for this but Carr, in my book, has rocks for brains at times. His decision making in 5 years has worsened, not improved. If you are outside the tackles and there is a lineman closing in, throw it away, don't duck. I think there are many reasons why we don't let him audible and run the shotgun, etc. I could rant in this section but will leave it as is.

3) Looking off defenders--One of my biggest pet peeves. Even if I saw him going through the progression and getting blasted I'd see progress but in general, there is no READ, it is turn and throw."

BattleRedToro
07-13-2007, 07:24 PM
Sorry bro but your initial post reeked of excuses. I didn't want to write ANOTHER explanation of Carr so I'll Cut and paste my old posts. I've never been a "hater." I just never got the fascination with keeping an average QB around when guys like Aikman and others got pummeled their first year and still came out doing pretty well. I'm saddened that this has turned into another thread regarding his ups and downs and that we can't look forward to what we have and wish him the best. There is EQUAL culpability in many ways. The line wasn't great or good at times but he also contributed by not learning the basics of NFL QBing or putting in the work and that led to the line looking bad, even when they were doing adequate work.





"I think Carr has alot of work to do. The three things that bother me the most or that I have observed over and over...(sorry, they are most likely repeats but 5 pages on a Saturday won't do)

1) Footwork-Happy feet is the key term. I'm sure most people who support him will say that it is because he got beat down but guys like Aikman did and survived. I would love to see him take the drop, sit in the pocket and be able to slide or look natural. He doesn't. Some might also put this in "pocket presence" but I look at it as all the same. The basic concept is keep the head scanning the field while being able to feel pressure and slide or step up.

2) General thinking--I'll get blasted for this but Carr, in my book, has rocks for brains at times. His decision making in 5 years has worsened, not improved. If you are outside the tackles and there is a lineman closing in, throw it away, don't duck. I think there are many reasons why we don't let him audible and run the shotgun, etc. I could rant in this section but will leave it as is.

3) Looking off defenders--One of my biggest pet peeves. Even if I saw him going through the progression and getting blasted I'd see progress but in general, there is no READ, it is turn and throw."

Stop comparing David Carr's situation to Troy Aikman's situation. First, Troy Aikman was drafted by a bad team, not an expansion team. Second, Troy Aikman for his career was sacked 259 times spread over 165 games over a 12 year period. David Carr was sacked 249 times in 76 games over a 5 year period. I don't think the comparison is a very good one. Troy Aikman was sacked 19 times in his first year. David Carr was sacked 76 times. In his second and worst year for sacks, Troy Aikman was sacked 39 times. After his third season and having been sacked a total of 90 times, Aikman's Cowboys had built up an impressive Offensive Line and he was sacked 23, 26, 14, 14, and 18 times over a 5 year period in which the Dallas Cowboys won 3 Super Bowls (I bolded the Super Bowl Championship years). After David Carr's third season he had been sacked a total of 140 times and the Texans Offensive Line would never have been compared in the same breath with the Cowboys' Super Bowl winning Offensive Line.

Now as far as my initial post is concerned, I wasn't making excuses. I was showing the culpability of both the Offensive Line and David Carr for the Offense's failures. I was trying to bring reason to the discussion of how the team could have performed with a different QB behind the same O-Line. I believe that a different QB could have performed better, but at the same time the other QB wasn't going to be airing the ball out all the time or putting up league leading numbers either. The truth is that the Texans' O-Line was incapable of succesfully pass blocking consistently for anything more than a 3 step drop followed by an immediate pass. Also, David Carr was incapable of doing the three things that any QB behind that O-Line would have to do very quickly to be successful and they are in order: see the open man, make the decision, and then execute the throw. Some QB's have the luxury of an O-Line that allows them to take 7 step drops and wait for plays to develop or take their time to make a decision before throwing the ball, but the Texans' O-Line does not as of yet afford its QB's that luxury. For a QB to be succesful behind this line, he must be quick, decisive, and accurate.

BattleRedToro
07-13-2007, 07:26 PM
His eye level was correct? Where do you guys get some of this stuff from?

Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMd3FdudDH0):user:

Vinny
07-13-2007, 07:37 PM
Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMd3FdudDH0):user: What I got out of that was that Carr didn't look downfield and didn't go through his progressions....that's what he meant about eye level at around 5:50 of the video. If that is what you meant about Sage outplaying Carr....yeah, I've talked about that for nearly 5 years.

BattleRedToro
07-13-2007, 07:44 PM
What I got out of that was that Carr didn't look downfield and didn't go through his progressions....that's what he meant about eye level at around 5:50 of the video. If that is what you meant about Sage outplaying Carr....yeah, I've talked about that for nearly 5 years.

Yes, that is what I meant.

nunusguy
07-13-2007, 09:30 PM
What I got out of that was that Carr didn't look downfield and didn't go through his progressions....that's what he meant about eye level at around 5:50 of the video. If that is what you meant about Sage outplaying Carr....yeah, I've talked about that for nearly 5 years.
A 5-year hard-on for Carr ? Even by Viagra standards, that's real impressive there V.

Vinny
07-14-2007, 01:48 AM
Yes, that is what I meant.fair enough...touche


A 5-year hard-on for Carr ? Even by Viagra standards, that's real impressive there V.
Early on I compared his downside to Rob Johnson and pointed at his lack of pocket skills along with stating that I thought we scaled back the offense for him since I thought he struggled to read defenses. It was considered ridiculous pontification and I was branded a heretic for many years....I fought off the crowds long enough to stay out of the river though.

ReliantTexan
07-14-2007, 02:32 AM
Sage played better because his eye-level was correct and so he was able to get rid of the ball quickly to open recievers, but the O-line was still not good enough to allow Sage to throw deep often until the game was essentially already over.Dude,he threw for 235 yds. in one half.I think the Oline gave him all the time he needed.Keep in mind, this is Sage Rosenfels we're talking about here.

BattleRedToro
07-14-2007, 11:42 AM
Dude,he threw for 235 yds. in one half.I think the Oline gave him all the time he needed.Keep in mind, this is Sage Rosenfels we're talking about here.

Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not like Al Gore, and intentionally inflate the statistics to defend your point. Sage Rosenfels, in fact, threw for 186 yards in the second half of the game on October 29, 2006 in Tennessee. The longest gain on a passing play for the Texans was by Sage Rosenfels for a gain of 28 yards in the 4th Quarter with the Texans trailing Tennesse 28-10 with 10:41 left. I don't remember how long the pass actually flew in the air, and there is no way of telling from the Play-by-Play log. Most of the other passing play gains were for much less.

Vinny
07-14-2007, 02:01 PM
Now, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you are not like Al Gore, and intentionally inflate the statistics to defend your point. Sage Rosenfels, in fact, threw for 186 yards in the second half of the game on October 29, 2006 in Tennessee. The longest gain on a passing play for the Texans was by Sage Rosenfels for a gain of 28 yards in the 4th Quarter with the Texans trailing Tennesse 28-10 with 10:41 left. I don't remember how long the pass actually flew in the air, and there is no way of telling from the Play-by-Play log. Most of the other passing play gains were for much less.

I have the game taped and have watched it a few times....Sage played a heck of a game. Sage is a Gifford Neilson quality QB....a decent back up, but the contrast in the offense with an average QB compared to David was stark on this day. Lots of us have actually seen and taped Carr's old games here....why not spin tall tales about how poor Dave was abused over at the Carolina board? not many of us here are going on a stat sheet or spin alone. In that very same game Carr would take sacks or fumble the ball based on his indecisive reads instead of getting the ball out of his hands (something a Gifford Neilson quality QB can do). A journeyman came in with the same protection and made the offense look like it was playing one of the worst defenses in the NFL. Carr made them look dominant.

Sage Rosenfels threw three TD passes in the final 17 minutes of that game (that's a little over a quarter of the game for those who are not awake). In 5 years of starts Carr has thrown more than 2 TD's in a game 3 times. That breaks down to 3 times in 75 starts.

BattleRedToro
07-14-2007, 02:17 PM
I have the game taped and have watched it a few times....Sage played a heck of a game. Sage is a Gifford Neilson quality QB....a decent back up, but the contrast in the offense with an average QB compared to David was stark on this day. Lots of us have actually seen and taped Carr's old games here....why not spin tall tales about how poor Dave was abused over at the Carolina board? not many of us here are going on a stat sheet or spin alone.

I'm not spinning anything. I freely admit that the offense performed better with Sage as the QB, but that doesn't mean that Sage had all day behind the O-line or wasn't under pressure by the Titans' pass rush. My point was that there are plays that can be made behind this O-line, but that doesn't mean that the O-line is good. The QB is still going to be pressured because they can't pass block good at all. He just has to make his throws very quickly, that's all.

Heath Shuler
07-14-2007, 04:25 PM
Maybe here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMd3FdudDH0):user:

The entire piece can be summed up in the following two quotes:
“........David Carr, who had no ability to make good decisions.”
“David Carr can not read coverages.”

Second Honeymoon
07-14-2007, 04:34 PM
The entire piece can be summed up in the following two quotes:
“........David Carr, who had no ability to make good decisions.”
“David Carr can not read coverages.”

just a bad NFL QB. easy as that. let's face it, Casserley is responsible for drafting 2 of the biggest QB busts in NFL Draft history. David Carr and Heath Shuler. Not exactly Montana and Marino is it? Why are we surprised that Casserley would draft a workout warrior ala Carr? Casserley's track record practically dictates the pick. I am not saying that Carr was 100% to blame for his failed career but a lot of QBs have done much more with much less. The game just moved too fast for him and that coupled with bad footwork, low trajectory+low release point, and poor study and work habits were going to equal disaster for DC irregardless of arm strength and eventual accuracy.

real
07-14-2007, 04:47 PM
I'm not spinning anything. I freely admit that the offense performed better with Sage as the QB, but that doesn't mean that Sage had all day behind the O-line or wasn't under pressure by the Titans' pass rush. My point was that there are plays that can be made behind this O-line, but that doesn't mean that the O-line is good. The QB is still going to be pressured because they can't pass block good at all. He just has to make his throws very quickly, that's all.

That's why Carr needed to go...

He couldn't get 'er done...

Hopefully we have a QB that can win games with our terrible O-line and 2.3 seconds to throw the ball before our line is run through like they don't exist...

*Back to reality*

David's indecisiveness allowed opposing d-coordinators to blitz to no end because David didn't have the skills neccessary to make the quick passes...It's called making reads...You know hot routes....things like that...Had David been able to make the quick throws, the defense was dictating, they would have been forced to back off and not rush so hard because their defense would get tired and we'd be on long drives drastically changing field position and putting scores on the board....

And no I'm not saying that our line is perfect and yes some of Davids sacks came on plays where linemen just got beat...but that happens to every O-line in the league.....Yes some more than others, but at the end of the day the on;y thing that matters is production..It doesn't matter if Carr never threw a pass over 10 yards..The point is that he never yielded any resuls...If he's throwing multiple 5,6,7 yard passes on 20 play drives that end in points then no one is complaining...But when you throw multiple 4-5 yard passes throughout the course of the game and lead the team so several 3 and outs we have an issue....It doesn't matter how you do it, but you need to produce...A David Carr lead offense failed to produce, while a Sage led offense did...the end...

Heath Shuler
07-14-2007, 05:06 PM
just a bad NFL QB. easy as that. let's face it, Casserley is responsible for drafting 2 of the biggest QB busts in NFL Draft history. David Carr and Heath Shuler. Not exactly Montana and Marino is it? Why are we surprised that Casserley would draft a workout warrior ala Carr? Casserley's track record practically dictates the pick. I am not saying that Carr was 100% to blame for his failed career but a lot of QBs have done much more with much less. The game just moved too fast for him and that coupled with bad footwork, low trajectory+low release point, and poor study and work habits were going to equal disaster for DC irregardless of arm strength and eventual accuracy.

You will get no argument from me. Casserly is an arrogant fraud. I’m just pleased that they are both gone and I expect great things in the future. I see 9 & 7 this season and training camp tickets are available on Monday; I’m pumped.

HoustonFrog
07-14-2007, 07:07 PM
Stop comparing David Carr's situation to Troy Aikman's situation. First, Troy Aikman was drafted by a bad team, not an expansion team. Second, Troy Aikman for his career was sacked 259 times spread over 165 games over a 12 year period. David Carr was sacked 249 times in 76 games over a 5 year period. I don't think the comparison is a very good one. Troy Aikman was sacked 19 times in his first year. David Carr was sacked 76 times. In his second and worst year for sacks, Troy Aikman was sacked 39 times. After his third season and having been sacked a total of 90 times, Aikman's Cowboys had built up an impressive Offensive Line and he was sacked 23, 26, 14, 14, and 18 times over a 5 year period in which the Dallas Cowboys won 3 Super Bowls (I bolded the Super Bowl Championship years). After David Carr's third season he had been sacked a total of 140 times and the Texans Offensive Line would never have been compared in the same breath with the Cowboys' Super Bowl winning Offensive Line.

Now as far as my initial post is concerned, I wasn't making excuses. I was showing the culpability of both the Offensive Line and David Carr for the Offense's failures. I was trying to bring reason to the discussion of how the team could have performed with a different QB behind the same O-Line. I believe that a different QB could have performed better, but at the same time the other QB wasn't going to be airing the ball out all the time or putting up league leading numbers either. The truth is that the Texans' O-Line was incapable of succesfully pass blocking consistently for anything more than a 3 step drop followed by an immediate pass. Also, David Carr was incapable of doing the three things that any QB behind that O-Line would have to do very quickly to be successful and they are in order: see the open man, make the decision, and then execute the throw. Some QB's have the luxury of an O-Line that allows them to take 7 step drops and wait for plays to develop or take their time to make a decision before throwing the ball, but the Texans' O-Line does not as of yet afford its QB's that luxury. For a QB to be succesful behind this line, he must be quick, decisive, and accurate.

You missed the whole point of my comments. Your intial post said Carr's vision was changed because of his initial beating his first year...for which he had a hard time recovering. Aikman was pummeled and had cuncussions his first season, see chin shot in Cardinal game. I was just stating that not every QB that gets no help declines or loses his QB instincts or skills. Steve Young in TB and many others have been in the same situation. Also, no one has ever told me how Couch differed from Carr...expansion, bad coaches, etc and he is out of the league. The history of the NFL is littered with them. Despite bad lines QBs can still show progress in their mental abilities and what they are taught. If he was getting pummeled but still showed a willingness to throw the ball away while outside the pocket, etc then I'd give him the benefit but he took sacks that were not the lines doing.

Overall, despite what you said in your initial post, you are right in this post and both sides are culpable. Sorry, but I don't believe the comments about losing his line of sight though and I agree with those who said Sage outplayed him just because they understand the pocket better.

Double Barrel
07-14-2007, 09:14 PM
Not so strange when you consider the line is still a team weakness. Then again, changing the line for the sake of change isn't the solution either - it should only be changed by adding better players.

Even when we obtained linemen that were seemingly better on other teams, they'd always fail here and become part of the so-called "worst line in the NFL". It's always an assumption that the bad line was making our QB bad, but why can't it be argued the other way around? idonno:

Texans Horror
07-14-2007, 11:10 PM
Even when we obtained linemen that were seemingly better on other teams, they'd always fail here and become part of the so-called "worst line in the NFL". It's always an assumption that the bad line was making our QB bad, but why can't it be argued the other way around? idonno:

I'm going to assume you were referring to the likes of Weigert and Wade and not Riley...

Runner
07-15-2007, 06:03 AM
Even when we obtained linemen that were seemingly better on other teams, they'd always fail here and become part of the so-called "worst line in the NFL". It's always an assumption that the bad line was making our QB bad, but why can't it be argued the other way around? idonno:

Don't underestimate the value of horrible coaching, non-existent player development, and bad schemes as well.

We did have more talent on the line than the results showed, but had average at best talent across the board. Some positions were weaker. Mix equal parts coaching, average or less o-line talent, and QB. Shake well.

Double Barrel
07-16-2007, 05:00 PM
I merely ask these questions as 'food for thought'...not that I require much thought to answer. (I try not to be too demanding ;).)

All of that is in our rearview mirror, though, and we can only hope as Texans fans that we have a smoother road ahead of us. Lord knows we're deserving of it.

BattleRedToro
07-16-2007, 10:21 PM
Your intial post said Carr's vision was changed because of his initial beating his first year...for which he had a hard time recovering.

I just wanted to set the record straight. That wasn't what I posted. This is what I posted:

David Carr's problem was his lack of trust in his O-line's ability to pass block. This ultimately led to his eye-level being low as he dropped back to pass, and that prevented him from correctly picking up open receivers on short routes, which is all he had time to throw.

I never said anything about it being because of his intial beating from his first year.

real
07-16-2007, 10:31 PM
Regardless, Carr's 'line of vision dropping' or whatever was stated is bull IMHO...

He's a freaking football player....play football...

Runner
07-16-2007, 11:31 PM
It's always an assumption that the bad line was making our QB bad, but why can't it be argued the other way around?

Not entirely true. In general, for the first 3.5 years or so it was the line is making the QB bad. (Except for Chester "The Best Lineman on the Team" Pitts). For the past 1.5 years it has been Carr making the o-line look bad. By my last count there were 7 people who have admitted they were wrong about Carr, everyone else knew it all along. That is why I can't believe any o-lineman is on the "Worst Player in Texans History" thread. But I digress.

I used to argue that it wasn't all the line's fault, now I find myself saying that the line isn't fixed just because Schaub is here. It's not that I like heterodox opinions; it's that the Texans have historically had some very systematic problems. These problems were based in the corporate culture and made worse by the politics between the front office and the coaching staff. The way playing time was given based on seniority, salary, and other non-playing field reasons hurt both morale and the development of young players under Capers.

As bad as some players have performed on offense, they were given little chance to succeed. The Texans coaches taught the o-lineman some strange techniques and planned very poor schemes for much of the team's history. While Carr did receive too many chances and was given way too much slack by the team, he also received little good coaching. In my opinion.

While many want a simple answer to why the team hasn't improved much in 5 years:

a) It was the o-line's fault.
b) It was Carr's fault.

The more worrisome option might be:

c) It was the Texans organization's fault, top to bottom.

c is much harder to fix. Replacing the front office and coaching staff is a good start. That is where the key to the Texans' improvement must come from.

Double Barrel
07-16-2007, 11:53 PM
Well said, Runner. I'd have to agree with c, as well. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, the decision to start a rookie QB behind a new and untested line doomed us from the start. Carr never recovered from the initial beating, and it was a vicious cycle from then on.

Runner
07-17-2007, 12:02 AM
Well said, Runner. I'd have to agree with c, as well. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, the decision to start a rookie QB behind a new and untested line doomed us from the start. Carr never recovered from the initial beating, and it was a vicious cycle from then on.

Part of the vicious cycle being that the line couldn't improve because of Carr's inadequacies either. Then some lineman were scapegoated in an effort to protect the face of the franchise.

The funny thing is, most of the players know this. That is why, contrary to what some people seem to want to believe, the lineman didn't hate Carr. It is also why Carr has never blamed his lineman. Rare is the receiver or any offensive player that speaks out against Carr, the line, or whoever.

Other teams have had players destroy their own locker rooms over less than what is assumed by a lot of a Texans fans. Yet there is rarely a peep here from a player, and any sign of negativity in a player statement is therefore blown all out of proportion. So here is more food for thought:

Maybe the players who were in the situation don't blame each other because they don't blame each other. Not as much as the fans do, anyway.

TexansSeminole
07-17-2007, 03:13 AM
You missed the whole point of my comments. Your intial post said Carr's vision was changed because of his initial beating his first year...for which he had a hard time recovering. Aikman was pummeled and had cuncussions his first season, see chin shot in Cardinal game. I was just stating that not every QB that gets no help declines or loses his QB instincts or skills. Steve Young in TB and many others have been in the same situation. Also, no one has ever told me how Couch differed from Carr...expansion, bad coaches, etc and he is out of the league. The history of the NFL is littered with them. Despite bad lines QBs can still show progress in their mental abilities and what they are taught. If he was getting pummeled but still showed a willingness to throw the ball away while outside the pocket, etc then I'd give him the benefit but he took sacks that were not the lines doing.

Overall, despite what you said in your initial post, you are right in this post and both sides are culpable. Sorry, but I don't believe the comments about losing his line of sight though and I agree with those who said Sage outplayed him just because they understand the pocket better.


I think what happens is that the players who are are prepared and excited about the upcoming season are successful and their talent (along with many other things of course) helps determines how successful they are. When you've got a guy who isn't as prepared or as excited as he should be, talent is kind of thrown out the door. I'm pretty sure that is what happened with Carr.

real
07-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Maybe the players who were in the situation don't blame each other because they don't blame each other. Not as much as the fans do, anyway.

That's one way to look at it...

But the players haven't said much towards placing blame in any direction...

Doesn't mean that they don't think various pieces from past teams couldn't have done better...

It doesn't take many context clues to realize that atleast a few players on the team didn't think Carr was the answer...

Normally if you think your teammate is worthy you will defend them and publicly say you don't think they should be traded, or 'he is our QB' or something of that nature...They didn't do that for David nor the Coaching staff, and if you're keeping count more players have actually made negative connotations towards David rather than towards the coaching staff...

Maybe, generally speaking, they think David AND the coaching staff could have done a better job...

Texan_Bill
07-17-2007, 10:38 AM
The only sniff of the blame game that I ever got from the players - was a little from Andre Johnson during this past offseason, Aaron Glenn when he left, Jamie Sharper - who then left and Gary Walker..... I'm sure people can figure out where their comments were directed.

real
07-17-2007, 10:40 AM
Don't forget D-Rob, and Moulds...

Texan_Bill
07-17-2007, 10:42 AM
Don't forget D-Rob, and Moulds...

True, true.... Don't put much credence in Moulds' words but I do in Dunta's although his season wasn't exactly stellar.

Runner
07-17-2007, 07:58 PM
The only sniff of the blame game that I ever got from the players - was a little from Andre Johnson during this past offseason, Aaron Glenn when he left, Jamie Sharper - who then left and Gary Walker..... I'm sure people can figure out where their comments were directed.

Everyone can figure out where the comments were directed. It's easy, but it is a little surprising the players' vague thoughts always match almost exactly those of the person doing the interpreting.

Normally if you think your teammate is worthy you will defend them and publicly say you don't think they should be traded, or 'he is our QB' or something of that nature...They didn't do that for David ...

Players did defend Carr. I remember distinctly McKinney doing so on the radio. Dre did too when Carr left. Those words are always dismissed as, "what did you expect him to say". That way the interpretation can go on unhindered.

Maybe, generally speaking, they think David AND the coaching staff could have done a better job...

Of course they know Dave could have done better - name five players in the history of the Texans who couldn't have done better. OK, three. Two? One?

Most players don't criticize the coaches in this league, especially mediocre players like the Texans have had. Such criticism is very career limiting.

2BCF
07-17-2007, 08:09 PM
I'm just grateful that Carr is some other team's problem now. Good riddance.
Enjoy holding the clipboard Davey!

hollywood_texan
07-17-2007, 08:23 PM
Two things that seem clear about Carr:

1. He didn't stick up for his offensive line when the blame was being shoveled at them from the media, and
2. His work ethic doesn't seem to be enough at the NFL level.

I don't care how good you are in the NFL, you are going to have problems succeeding with problems in the those areas at the QB position.

Pile that on top of all the other Carr shortcomings (poor mechanics, unable to read defenses, fumbling the ball, etc.), and you have a complete mess on the offensive side of the ball.

Carr has very good athletic ability, but there is so much more that is required to be successful in the NFL at the QB position.

BattleRedToro
07-17-2007, 09:08 PM
Two things that seem clear about Carr:

1. He didn't stick up for his offensive line when the blame was being shoveled at them from the media, and
2. His work ethic doesn't seem to be enough at the NFL level.

I don't care how good you are in the NFL, you are going to have problems succeeding with problems in the those areas at the QB position.

Pile that on top of all the other Carr shortcomings (poor mechanics, unable to read defenses, fumbling the ball, etc.), and you have a complete mess on the offensive side of the ball.

Carr has very good athletic ability, but there is so much more that is required to be successful in the NFL at the QB position.

I really feel the poor mechanics thing is over played. Bernie Kosar had a much worse delivery than David Carr and that didn't prevent him from developing into a great QB.

Runner
07-17-2007, 10:21 PM
Diogenes carried a lamp; nothing more.

Kaiser Toro
07-17-2007, 10:22 PM
Diogenes carried a lamp; nothing more.

The Jerk carried a Lamp, a ping pong paddle and an ashtray.

Runner
07-17-2007, 10:24 PM
The Jerk carried a Lamp, a ping pong paddle and an ashtray.

Unplugged. The Jerk didn't illuminate anything.

Not that it would make any difference around here.........

Kaiser Toro
07-17-2007, 10:25 PM
Unplugged. He didn't illuminate anything.

Not that it would make any difference around here.........

Yeah, but did he have a thermos?

Runner
07-17-2007, 11:08 PM
Yeah, but did he have a thermos?

"Nothing more" didn't mean he didn't carry anything else. It meant he could provide light, but he couldn't make people look and see.

I hope that clears things up.

threetoedpete
07-18-2007, 12:23 PM
Part of the vicious cycle being that the line couldn't improve because of Carr's inadequacies either. Then some lineman were scapegoated in an effort to protect the face of the franchise.

The funny thing is, most of the players know this. That is why, contrary to what some people seem to want to believe, the lineman didn't hate Carr. It is also why Carr has never blamed his lineman. Rare is the receiver or any offensive player that speaks out against Carr, the line, or whoever.

Other teams have had players destroy their own locker rooms over less than what is assumed by a lot of a Texans fans. Yet there is rarely a peep here from a player, and any sign of negativity in a player statement is therefore blown all out of proportion. So here is more food for thought:

Maybe the players who were in the situation don't blame each other because they don't blame each other. Not as much as the fans do, anyway.



Well I've banned myself from these. I made four pages and stoped. We're clearly divided into two camps. And the ratio of Pro D.C. guys, it wasn't all his fault, and the DC bashers, the guy is satin and worthless, isn't even close. My point all along was he wasn't given a fair shake. Whether or not there were guys in the draft available, the fact of the matter over a three year span they lost out on the bidding for two preimier quality NFL OLT's. That there thingy is a fact. So obviously someone off of Kriby decided DC was was indeed good enough to do with out. No one is going to change anyones mind at this point. Going to be interesting to see how long you guys hold the party line if DC does in fact turn it around under his current curcumstances in Carolina. The only things that have changed are the tallent levels of the two clubs.


And agreed with you up there, the golden rule you always start off a new expansion club by drafting a franchise QB is pure bunk. Where that stuff came from I dunno. The fact is hitting a QB is at best, in the first round of a draft , a 50-50 proposition. Unless they're god like and you have the hosses up front, it ain't gonna work. If they would have hit on a few OL guys early might of been a different story. The fact is they picked seven busts befor they hit a journey man who is near NFL starting quality OLT. Not a very good record. And ...we're fixing to find out for sure what the o-line is/is not worth the first two opening games. He wasn't worthless coming out of college. The Texan's got him to this point. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Very Fair and open minded post Mr. Runner. I think you hit the nail on the head.

HoustonFrog
07-18-2007, 12:41 PM
I really feel the poor mechanics thing is over played. Bernie Kosar had a much worse delivery than David Carr and that didn't prevent him from developing into a great QB.

Bernie had smarts. There is the difference. You can overcome with hard work and smarts. I'll stick with what I've said since joining this site. Good Guy, Good skills...got no personal problem with him...my problems include..1) rocks for brains 2) work ethic 3) the QB issues stated on like Page 2.

There is this incredible article...IMHO...in Fortune magazine called "What It Takes To Be Great." I recommend people read it...for themselves and when thinking of guys like Carr. It relates to business, sports...life

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/10/30/8391794/index.htm

"Well, folks, it's not so simple. For one thing, you do not possess a natural gift for a certain job, because targeted natural gifts don't exist. (Sorry, Warren.) You are not a born CEO or investor or chess grandmaster. You will achieve greatness only through an enormous amount of hard work over many years. And not just any hard work, but work of a particular type that's demanding and painful.".............

"Scientific experts are producing remarkably consistent findings across a wide array of fields. Understand that talent doesn't mean intelligence, motivation or personality traits. It's an innate ability to do some specific activity especially well. British-based researchers Michael J. Howe, Jane W. Davidson and John A. Sluboda conclude in an extensive study, "The evidence we have surveyed ... does not support the [notion that] excelling is a consequence of possessing innate gifts................."

"The best people in any field are those who devote the most hours to what the researchers call "deliberate practice." It's activity that's explicitly intended to improve performance, that reaches for objectives just beyond one's level of competence, provides feedback on results and involves high levels of repetition"

Second Honeymoon
07-18-2007, 02:15 PM
Frog say's he had rocks for brains. As Frog would know about rocks and brains. What is this going to do with the Schaubie, when he's bridled by Kubiak, and the short passing game is the only thing he wants from a QB. Will the Leader brains turn to rocks also.

begone troll. you don't even come across as a Texans fan. you seem to be hoping that Schaub sucks. you should probably go away and become a fan of another team. just because your boy sucked doesnt mean you should want his successor to suck to somehow validate your manlove for Carr. get a room and wear protection. k thanks.

fans like you are pathetic and lame. go to the Panthers board and stay away from this board as it is for real fans not fanboys of a bad QB with pretty hair that doesnt even have a starting job anymore. why you ask? because he sucks about as much as the lame drivel that spouts from you.

get lost

real
07-18-2007, 02:17 PM
I think Caddy is Bongo...

Second Honeymoon
07-18-2007, 02:27 PM
I think Caddy is Bongo...

well the dude is 62...he probably thinks the Hula Hoop is still cutting edge technology and that Carr is just the cat's meow. Maybe he just pops viagra like candy and 'stares' at pictures of Carr all day....who the hell knows...or cares. go away troll....carr sucked, sucks, and will always suck...just like your act

HoustonFrog
07-18-2007, 03:53 PM
Frog say's he had rocks for brains. As Frog would know about rocks and brains. What is this going to do with the Schaubie, when he's bridled by Kubiak, and the short passing game is the only thing he wants from a QB. Will the Leader brains turn to rocks also.

Hulk?What is your major malfunction. I gave an opinion and even posted an article that discusses people with talent don't always succeed without the right work or mindset. Sorry if you are bitter and angry but I believe the playbook and things like the shotgun were dumbed down for him. If Schaub is horrible I'll be just as peeved. The difference between you and I is that I'm either peeved WE are losing or happy WE are getting somewhere. Read some things...that article.. and educate yourself. I can't help it that Carr almost flunked out of Fresno..errrr..had trouble concentrating in college because of a crush on a girl. Stop being so bitter. May he and us do well.

real
07-18-2007, 04:16 PM
I think Caddy is Bongo AKA a Titans fan....

real
07-18-2007, 04:19 PM
Nope I was wrong...

HOU-TEX
07-18-2007, 04:22 PM
Hulk?What is your major malfunction. I gave an opinion and even posted an article that discusses people with talent don't always succeed without the right work or mindset. Sorry if you are bitter and angry but I believe the playbook and things like the shotgun were dumbed down for him. If Schaub is horrible I'll be just as peeved. The difference between you and I is that I'm either peeved WE are losing or happy WE are getting somewhere. Read some things and educate yourself. I can't help it that Carr almost flunked out of Fresno..errrr..had trouble concentrating in college because of a crush on a girl. Stop being so bitter. May he and us do well.

"Can't teach an old mutt new tricks".

I came across an old picture of Caddy. He's the tall one with the red shirt. I'm not sure why he's with Carr's family. Hmmm...I wonder...

http://www.geocities.com/davidcarrpage/family.jpg

Texan_Bill
07-18-2007, 05:51 PM
Is that Hulk to the right?

Mr. White
07-18-2007, 05:54 PM
Is that Hulk to the right?

That's Derek to the right.

Runner
07-18-2007, 06:19 PM
Very Fair and open minded post Mr. Runner. I think you hit the nail on the head.

Thanks - I'm just glad to have squeezed it in before this thread swirled down the toilet with posters showing off their internuts.

BattleRedToro
07-18-2007, 08:42 PM
things like the shotgun were dumbed down for him.

Gary Kubiak said the shotgun was not used due to the Center not being able to handle it last year and not because of the QB.

Honoring Earl 34
07-18-2007, 08:54 PM
Yeah, but did he have a thermos?

He drank a Tab also ... I believe with a twinkie .

Runner
07-18-2007, 09:34 PM
He drank a Tab also ... I believe with a twinkie .

I guess this digression will never die. While Diogenes lived as a dog, The Jerk had one, so he had that going for him.

BobTx1950
07-18-2007, 10:01 PM
Well Carrs gone so a bunch of you are happy . Call him garbage whatever . Wonder if your gona blame Carr when we lose this season . Got to have a TEAM to win .:d: :d: :d:

Honoring Earl 34
07-18-2007, 10:05 PM
Gary Kubiak said the shotgun was not used due to the Center not being able to handle it last year and not because of the QB.

I think the reason was , Carr sped up his reads from the gun .

BattleRedToro
07-18-2007, 10:38 PM
I think the reason was , Carr sped up his reads from the gun .

Here you go,

This is a quote from the Associated Press 05:14 PM CST on Thursday, December 14, 2006:



OUT OF THE SHOTGUN:@ Kubiak was evasive early in the week about why he avoids putting Carr in the shotgun formation. On Thursday, he said it depends on how quickly center Drew Hodgdon, a second-year pro who began the season as the backup, masters the longer snaps.

Hodgdon has started two games since veteran Mike Flanagan was placed on injured reserve with a rib injury.

"Flanagan did it well," Kubiak said. "If you don't have confidence in it, you just come up under center and do the same thing. Really, it all depends on how Drew handles it."

Kubiak said Monday he'd like to use the formation more to protect Carr better. Carr has been sacked 36 times this season.

"When your quarterback is getting pressured, you'd love to move him back there, you'd love to give him more time," Kubiak said. "We've got some things we've got to work out and we have been working on them and if we can get them fixed, you may see us do it some more."

HoustonFrog
07-18-2007, 10:50 PM
Here you go,

This is a quote from the Associated Press 05:14 PM CST on Thursday, December 14, 2006:



OUT OF THE SHOTGUN:@ Kubiak was evasive early in the week about why he avoids putting Carr in the shotgun formation. On Thursday, he said it depends on how quickly center Drew Hodgdon, a second-year pro who began the season as the backup, masters the longer snaps.

Hodgdon has started two games since veteran Mike Flanagan was placed on injured reserve with a rib injury.

"Flanagan did it well," Kubiak said. "If you don't have confidence in it, you just come up under center and do the same thing. Really, it all depends on how Drew handles it."

Kubiak said Monday he'd like to use the formation more to protect Carr better. Carr has been sacked 36 times this season.

"When your quarterback is getting pressured, you'd love to move him back there, you'd love to give him more time," Kubiak said. "We've got some things we've got to work out and we have been working on them and if we can get them fixed, you may see us do it some more."

I also read during the season that he was speeding up his game while in it....when they tried it. In fact I'll find the quote..it may have been a TV interview but Kubiak mentioned that he thought Carr seems to just work better when they put him in his normal drops. I think it was just not a good situation from line or QB.