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TexanAddict
06-21-2007, 01:13 PM
Matt Schaub: I've been saying it for a long time. If you give Matt Schaub 16 games, he'll automatically be a top 16 quarterback. The Texans are giving him more than a full season. Houston is giving him $40 million and the keys to the franchise. Schaub is a quick study and has had a great off-season under quarterback guru and Texans coach Gary Kubiak. Schaub gets to work with one of the elite receivers in the game in Andre Johnson. Owen Daniels is an emerging threat at tight end. And the Texans offensive line, while not great, is improved. Schaub will put himself and the Texans on the map with a big season.
Link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6947274)

More good press for our Texans. Also, go answer the poll question on the page. Looks like a bunch of bitter Falcons fans are the only ones to have reponded so far.

Texan_Bill
06-21-2007, 01:32 PM
The poll results didn't necessarily bode well, but who cares... :splits:

Second Honeymoon
06-21-2007, 01:49 PM
I could see it happen. I think Ahman Green is really going to help Schaub out. Green can be a threat to catch the ball out of the backfield and supposedly Green is looking as good as he ever has. Sherman said as much and Sherman coached him during his MVP-type years in Green Bay.

hopefully we can convince Keenan that Houston is a better place for him than Washington. Then we would have a solid offense going into Week1.

Texans Horror
06-21-2007, 01:59 PM
I'm all for it. The Texans need Matt to have a break-out year. He will be helped by Green, though I don't necessarily take Sherman's comments to heart. Green is one of Sherman's guys - brought to Green Bay by Sherman and now brought to Houston. I wouldn't expect him to publicly criticize Green.

That being said, I think that for the Texans to succeed, it is critical that at least the following other players have a break-out year:

Mario Williams
Amobi Okoye
Jacoby Jones
Salaam/Black
Dunta Robinson
Kevin Walter
Jason Babin
Travis Johnson
Flanagan
Winston

These players need to do as well as they did last year:
Ron Dayne (he needs to perform as well as he did at the end of last season)
Demeco Ryans
Maddux
Andre Johnson
Owen Daniels
Putzier
Chester Pitts

I think that covers just about everybody except for Mathis (who knows if he will see the field?), a few defensive backs (who I don't follow very well), and a couple of linebackers (who again, I don't follow well).

Second Honeymoon
06-21-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm all for it. The Texans need Matt to have a break-out year. He will be helped by Green, though I don't necessarily take Sherman's comments to heart. Green is one of Sherman's guys - brought to Green Bay by Sherman and now brought to Houston. I wouldn't expect him to publicly criticize Green.

That being said, I think that for the Texans to succeed, it is critical that at least the following other players have a break-out year:

Mario Williams
Amobi Okoye
Jacoby Jones
Salaam/Black
Dunta Robinson
Kevin Walter
Jason Babin
Travis Johnson
Flanagan
Winston

These players need to do as well as they did last year:
Ron Dayne (he needs to perform as well as he did at the end of last season)
Demeco Ryans
Maddux
Andre Johnson
Owen Daniels
Putzier
Chester Pitts

I think that covers just about everybody except for Mathis (who knows if he will see the field?), a few defensive backs (who I don't follow very well), and a couple of linebackers (who again, I don't follow well).

if all those things fell into place, we would playing in the Super Bowl. If half those guys have breakout years or maintain their level of play we could be in the playoff race. just imho.

fwiw - sherman wasn't 'not criticizing' Green, he was praising Green.

real
06-21-2007, 02:45 PM
Personally I think Schaub is going to be a top 10 QB next year.

Double Barrel
06-21-2007, 03:13 PM
I think Schaub is going to have a good year. I'm not predicting 'great', but I think he will prove the trade and contract was more than worth the price.

One thing not mentioned in the article is what a great leader he is, too. :joker:

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 03:22 PM
One thing not mentioned in the article is what a great leader he is, too. :joker:

Well unfortunately he is limited to that because he is too young to mentor anyone. :cool:

Hagar
06-21-2007, 03:37 PM
This link is long since trash, but this was an article about "he who shall not be named" having a breakout year last year.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/5781908

7. David Carr, quarterback, Texans

Here's one for the clip and file department: I think Carr finally puts it all together this year. New Texans head coach Gary Kubiak is a quarterback guru. And in talking to Carr late last year, he was begging for guidance from someone who has played the position.

Mike Sherman takes over as the offensive line coach. And the talent along the previously pathetic Texans offensive line got much better with the signing of Mike Flannagan and the drafting of Eric Winston and Charles Spencer.

Plus, Carr has new weapons to play with. Eric Moulds is a savvy veteran who can still put up big numbers. And his presence alone should take the burden away from Andre Johnson, who I think will rebound to his All-Pro form. And don't forget about the pickup of Kubiak favorite Jeb Putzier at tight end.

If Carr plays like I think he will, Houston can win seven or eight games. This can disrupt Indianapolis from getting home-field advantage or hurt the playoff chances for the Jags if Houston can split with these teams. If Carr performs like last season, this is a four-win squad.

I hope this year’s prognosticator is better then last years. :fans:

Texans Horror
06-21-2007, 03:37 PM
if all those things fell into place, we would playing in the Super Bowl. If half those guys have breakout years or maintain their level of play we could be in the playoff race. just imho.

fwiw - sherman wasn't 'not criticizing' Green, he was praising Green.

You have to understand that I have high expectations of the Texans. It was my belief that the Texans last year were really going in the right direction and that with a decent offseason picking up a RB, they would likely go 8-8. To give up picks for Matt Schaub, they were saying he was the last piece needed to become play-off potential, a 9-7 team. Only tweaks after that. So yeah, I think Matt and the rest of these guys should all be having break-out years because they should be a play-off contending team.

Sherman would not criticize Green. I expect only praise to come from him.

awtysst
06-21-2007, 03:44 PM
T
If Carr plays like I think he will, Houston can win seven or eight games. This can disrupt Indianapolis from getting home-field advantage or hurt the playoff chances for the Jags if Houston can split with these teams. [/I]

I hope this year’s prognosticator is better then last years. :fans:

Guess what. We did win 7 games. So Carr played as well as he could and he still looked horrible. Guess what else, we did hurt the playoff chances of the Jags. I think this guy was pretty spot on. Carr did play his best, we did win 7 games, and we did irritate the Jags. Problem is Carr's best was horrible.

Dallas_Texan
06-21-2007, 03:53 PM
You have to understand that I have high expectations of the Texans. It was my belief that the Texans last year were really going in the right direction and that with a decent offseason picking up a RB, they would likely go 8-8. To give up picks for Matt Schaub, they were saying he was the last piece needed to become play-off potential, a 9-7 team. Only tweaks after that. So yeah, I think Matt and the rest of these guys should all be having break-out years because they should be a play-off contending team.

Sherman would not criticize Green. I expect only praise to come from him.

Way off there.....Kubiak's words were "we are putting things together for a 2009 season"

TexanAddict
06-21-2007, 03:55 PM
We did win 7 games.

Sorry, but we only won 6. The rest I agree with.

Link (http://www.nfl.com/standings)

awtysst
06-21-2007, 03:57 PM
Sorry, but we only won 6. The rest I agree with.

Link (http://www.nfl.com/standings)

You are right. I had a brain fart!

Texans Horror
06-21-2007, 04:04 PM
Way off there.....Kubiak's words were "we are putting things together for a 2009 season"

Dang - would love that link. Would have been useful during the team in development vs. instant win thread.

I see the team as in development, but for the Schaub deal to be worth its weight, they should be a play-off contender this year.

badboy
06-21-2007, 04:05 PM
You have to understand that I have high expectations of the Texans. It was my belief that the Texans last year were really going in the right direction and that with a decent offseason picking up a RB, they would likely go 8-8. To give up picks for Matt Schaub, they were saying he was the last piece needed to become play-off potential, a 9-7 team. Only tweaks after that. So yeah, I think Matt and the rest of these guys should all be having break-out years because they should be a play-off contending team.

Sherman would not criticize Green. I expect only praise to come from him.It is interesting how we all see things and interpret it differently. I saw giving 2 second round picks for Schaub as saying Carr is not taking us where we want to go. Hmm. Who is the best alternative to get us there including QBs on our roster? Well, Schaub is if we can get Atlanta to accept the offer. Had nothing to do with saying he was the "last piece". Just another piece and a very significant one that could cost the entire coaching staff their jobs or make Kubes/ Smith coach/GM of the year.

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 05:29 PM
Way off there.....Kubiak's words were "we are putting things together for a 2009 season"

Really?--where? What I have heard McNair and Kubiak talk about is trying to make the playoffs this year. Pretty darn sure no NFL coach is out talking about three seasons down the road as when things will come together since the average tenure for coaches is now about 3.5 years.

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 05:32 PM
To give up picks for Matt Schaub, they were saying he was the last piece needed to become play-off potential, a 9-7 team. Only tweaks after that.

I see the team as in development

You don't seem to be saying the same thing consistently. You have used Schaub as an example of building for down the road rather than now and then say the above.

real
06-21-2007, 07:52 PM
Really?--where? What I have heard McNair and Kubiak talk about is trying to make the playoffs this year. Pretty darn sure no NFL coach is out talking about three seasons down the road as when things will come together since the average tenure for coaches is now about 3.5 years.

Same thing I was thinking...When I saw that I was like, WTF ?

I just thought he knew something the rest of us didn't...

Runner
06-21-2007, 09:29 PM
Way off there.....Kubiak's words were "we are putting things together for a 2009 season"

Really?--where? What I have heard McNair and Kubiak talk about is trying to make the playoffs this year. Pretty darn sure no NFL coach is out talking about three seasons down the road as when things will come together since the average tenure for coaches is now about 3.5 years.

He didn't actually say 2009, but 2007 + "a couple" = 2009 by my math. Maybe 2008 if it is read very liberally that he counted this off-season and draft. He certainly was trying to say "not this year":



Gary Kubiak in the April 9, 2007 issue of Sports Illustrated demonstrated a non-rantish frankness about the Texans playoff chances that isn't often seen in coaching ranks:"Our supporting cast isn't good enough right now, and we're not going to put everything on [quarterback] Matt [Schaub]. We feel good about our recent drafts and our offseason moves, but we still need a couple more drafts and off seasons before we're a playoff caliber team. We see Matt as one piece of the puzzle."

Courtesy of our own Texans Chick: http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/category/nfl/2007/04/15/gary-kubiak-on-texans-playoffs-playoffs/

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 09:46 PM
He didn't actually say 2009, but 2007 + "a couple" = 2009 by my math. Maybe 2008 if it is read very liberally that he counted this off-season and draft. He certainly was trying to say "not this year":

Well not really very liberal. The quote came immediately before the draft, so that is one of the couple. He later clarified his statement with a hierarchy of stages of success--winning team, playoff team, playoff caliber team (as in could seriously be expected to make a push in the playoffs) and Super Bowl caliber team.

As said elsewhere, more than half the league changed their records by 3 or more games last season. 9-7 is in the playoff hunt in the 17th week of the season and possibly in the 18th week. They sure as heck aren't trying to build this thing to have another non-winning season.

Runner
06-21-2007, 10:05 PM
He later clarified his statement with a hierarchy of stages of success--winning team, playoff team, playoff caliber team (as in could seriously be expected to make a push in the playoffs) and Super Bowl caliber team.


I would have been clarifying (or spinning) my statement too, right after the "Oh crap, what did I just say" thought crossed my mind. :cool:

However, I believe that of course he has a growth plan and I always wonder the context in which such statments are made.

The most important thing I take out of the quotes is this: I think he clearly understands that there were/still are holes on this team that acquiring Matt Schaub didn't solve.

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 10:09 PM
However, I believe that of course he has a growth plan and I always wonder the context in which such statments are made.

Exactly.

The most important thing I take out of the quotes is this: I think he clearly understands that there were/still are holes on this team that acquiring Matt Schaub didn't solve.

Yes, and I think he clearly understands there always will be holes. Example from off the Texans--Rod Smith has been king in Denver for years and is becoming a serious hole that needs to be addressed for a couple years down the road. Coaches have to have a ying yang approach to immediate and long term building.

Runner
06-21-2007, 10:20 PM
Yes, and I think he clearly understands there always will be holes.

As far as clearly understanding goes, I think he also clearly understands the holes had better be getting fewer and shallower.

The holes on Denver or any "good" team don't compare to those Kubiak still faces. A good team on the decline maybe, but not a team like the Texans aspire to be.

Texans Horror
06-21-2007, 10:28 PM
You don't seem to be saying the same thing consistently. You have used Schaub as an example of building for down the road rather than now and then say the above.

I think it's going to take Schaub time to develop. I think the team is in development mode.

But IMO, with Carr and the second round draft pick, the Texans go 8-8 next year. So for Matt to be worth the trade, the record should reflect that, which means no less than 9-7. I don't think the Texans will go 9-7. I think they will go more like 5-11 because they are still in development. 5-11 being a worse record than 8-8, I think the Texans have essentially said "screw this year. It just isn't our year."

infantrycak
06-21-2007, 10:35 PM
But IMO, with Carr and the second round draft pick, the Texans go 8-8 next year.

So an unknown 2nd round pick would have single handedly made the team go 8-8?

I think they will go more like 5-11 because they are still in development. 5-11 being a worse record than 8-8, I think the Texans have essentially said "screw this year.

Oops--now I gotcha--you're a pissed off Carr fan.

real
06-21-2007, 10:49 PM
5-11 being a worse record than 8-8, I think the Texans have essentially said "screw this year. It just isn't our year."

I literally LOL'd when I read this...

What exactly have we loss-- or what have we gotten worse at that leads you to believe that we will regress ?

The loss of Carr ? The loss of Moulds? The loss of Ron Dayne as the primary back ?

I don't think the Texans are realistically thinking superbowl (though ultimately that should be their goal), but I'm doubting they are thinking "screw this year"....

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 08:36 AM
So an unknown 2nd round pick would have single handedly made the team go 8-8?



Oops--now I gotcha--you're a pissed off Carr fan.

These players were still on the board when Atlanta took Justin Blalock (OT) with Houston's second round pick. Any of these guys would have been a huge boost this year, giving the Texans a #2 WR, a solid CB for a weak defensive secondary, or an offensive lineman to block for Matt:

Chris Houston (CB)
Sidney Rice (WR)
Dwayne Jarrett (WR)
Eric Wright (CB)
Kalil (C)
Satele (C)

As far as Carr goes, I think eventually, Matt will produce better than Carr. But I think it will take time.

I literally LOL'd when I read this...

What exactly have we loss-- or what have we gotten worse at that leads you to believe that we will regress ?

The loss of Carr ? The loss of Moulds? The loss of Ron Dayne as the primary back ?

I don't think the Texans are realistically thinking superbowl (though ultimately that should be their goal), but I'm doubting they are thinking "screw this year"....

What exactly have we gained? A QB who has not won a game? Kevin Walter? Black at LT?

When some of the biggest offseason moves a team makes is to replace the quarterback and get rid of the #2 wide receiver, it's a temporary (1-season) setback.

Even as good as Matt is, and I do think he is going to make a damn good QB in the NFL, he still needs Salaam and Flanagan to hold the line. He still needs AJ to be open.

Going into the offseason, the Texans had two major areas of weakness - the offensive line and the defensive secondary. I don't believe either has been effectively addressed when the team takes guys in rounds 4 - 6 for cornerback, safety, left tackle, and guard. So these are still the two major weaknesses that teams will exploit. That hasn't changed.

So I ask myself what exactly did the Texans do to show that they will perform so much better this year than last? I'm left with Ahman Green. If the Texans succeed, it will be on the shoulders of Green. Everything rides on Green and Dayne staying healthy and putting up big yards.

real
06-22-2007, 08:48 AM
As far as Carr goes, I think eventually, Matt will produce better than Carr. But I think it will take time.

David threw something like 2 TD's over his last 10 games here....Me thinks it won't take any time at all for Schaub to "produce better than Carr".




What exactly have we gained? A QB who has not won a game? Kevin Walter? Black at LT?

When some of the biggest offseason moves a team makes is to replace the quarterback and get rid of the #2 wide receiver, it's a temporary (1-season) setback.

Even as good as Matt is, and I do think he is going to make a damn good QB in the NFL, he still needs Salaam and Flanagan to hold the line. He still needs AJ to be open.

Going into the offseason, the Texans had two major areas of weakness - the offensive line and the defensive secondary. I don't believe either has been effectively addressed when the team takes guys in rounds 4 - 6 for cornerback, safety, left tackle, and guard. So these are still the two major weaknesses that teams will exploit. That hasn't changed.

So I ask myself what exactly did the Texans do to show that they will perform so much better this year than last? I'm left with Ahman Green. If the Texans succeed, it will be on the shoulders of Green. Everything rides on Green and Dayne staying healthy and putting up big yards.


Good post.

dalemurphy
06-22-2007, 08:49 AM
So I ask myself what exactly did the Texans do to show that they will perform so much better this year than last? I'm left with Ahman Green. If the Texans succeed, it will be on the shoulders of Green. Everything rides on Green and Dayne staying healthy and putting up big yards.

changed and likely dramatically upgraded Qb, made significant coaching staff changes, dramatically improved the depth and talent at LB, added a veteran DT and a highly skilled and young DT, improved depth at CB, improved depth on OL (Black), added Ahman Green, returns 5 rookie starters and a rookie coaching staff....

Yeah, I guess they didn't do much to expect improvement this year...

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 08:52 AM
David threw something like 2 TD's over his last 10 games here....Me thinks it won't take any time at all for Schaub to "produce better than Carr".


And good point, too.

real
06-22-2007, 08:52 AM
changed and likely dramatically upgraded Qb, made significant coaching staff changes, dramatically improved the depth and talent at LB, added a veteran DT and a highly skilled and young DT, improved depth at CB, improved depth on OL (Black), added Ahman Green, returns 5 rookie starters and a rookie coaching staff....

Yeah, I guess they didn't do much to expect improvement this year...

I didn't even bother to go through all that...

Sometime it reaches a point where it's pointless...

So I'll just tell 'em 'good post'....

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 09:07 AM
changed and likely dramatically upgraded Qb, made significant coaching staff changes, dramatically improved the depth and talent at LB, added a veteran DT and a highly skilled and young DT, improved depth at CB, improved depth on OL (Black), added Ahman Green, returns 5 rookie starters and a rookie coaching staff....

Yeah, I guess they didn't do much to expect improvement this year...

Depth is good, but it won't help the starting team, and I'm concerned about the first 11 guys on the field.

I'll admit the linebacker was probably a good pick-up, but I'm not overly thrilled about the DT.

I'm concerned about how the Richard Smith/Frank Bush coaching duo will work out. I've heard before that Bush is the guy Kubiak really wanted originally, but couldn't get. This could lead to trouble down the line.

Adding Amobi will be great for the team, but drafting a DT is planting seeds. It takes a few years for them to really develop. Along those lines, Winston and Williams still need more time. Daniels should play a bigger role. Lundy will probably do as much as he did last year. So overall, I expect improvement from the rookies, but nothing dramatic.

dalemurphy
06-22-2007, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=Texans Horror;683660]Depth is good, but it won't help the starting team, and I'm concerned about the first 11 guys on the field.
QUOTE]

this isn't Madden... When talking about a season, depth is crucial. How many games would we have won last year if Charles Spencer was healthy, Faggins and Wong were healthy, didn't injure his foot, Flanagan and Salaam didn't get banged up, etc...

After Spencer's injury last year, Salaam filled in pretty well. However, he was pretty banged up in the middle of the season but we didn't have anyone else. A healthy Jordan Black is a huge upgrade over an injured Salaam...

With Faggins foot injury, we started LSanders for the first month and he got torched. Furthermore, McCleon became the nickel back. This year, if Faggins goes down, we start Fletcher or Bennett (depending on his development)... Meanwhile, McCleon likely doesn't even make the roster this year.

In football, few things are as important as depth! So, you should be concerned about the depth.

HuttoKarl
06-22-2007, 09:47 AM
Depth is good, but it won't help the starting team, and I'm concerned about the first 11 guys on the field.

I'll admit the linebacker was probably a good pick-up, but I'm not overly thrilled about the DT.

I'm concerned about how the Richard Smith/Frank Bush coaching duo will work out. I've heard before that Bush is the guy Kubiak really wanted originally, but couldn't get. This could lead to trouble down the line.

Adding Amobi will be great for the team, but drafting a DT is planting seeds. It takes a few years for them to really develop. Along those lines, Winston and Williams still need more time. Daniels should play a bigger role. Lundy will probably do as much as he did last year. So overall, I expect improvement from the rookies, but nothing dramatic.



We had no depth last season and 11 guys on the IR at the end of the year. Depth matters quite a bit.

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 09:49 AM
[QUOTE=Texans Horror;683660]Depth is good, but it won't help the starting team, and I'm concerned about the first 11 guys on the field.
QUOTE]

this isn't Madden... When talking about a season, depth is crucial. How many games would we have won last year if Charles Spencer was healthy, Faggins and Wong were healthy, didn't injure his foot, Flanagan and Salaam didn't get banged up, etc...

After Spencer's injury last year, Salaam filled in pretty well. However, he was pretty banged up in the middle of the season but we didn't have anyone else. A healthy Jordan Black is a huge upgrade over an injured Salaam...

With Faggins foot injury, we started LSanders for the first month and he got torched. Furthermore, McCleon became the nickel back. This year, if Faggins goes down, we start Fletcher or Bennett (depending on his development)... Meanwhile, McCleon likely doesn't even make the roster this year.

In football, few things are as important as depth! So, you should be concerned about the depth.


The Texans have so much depth, some of it is starting. That's not good.

Depth will always be second in line to the starting line-up. I would have no problem drafting for depth if the Texans would take care of the starting lineup.

Double Barrel
06-22-2007, 10:02 AM
Audie Murphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy), the highly decorated WWII hero, often fought battles against vastly superior forces. But he led his men, outnumbered and outgunned as they were, to victory every time.

The moral of the story is that a good leader can elevate those around him. :victory:

Specnatz
06-22-2007, 10:34 AM
Audie Murphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy), the highly decorated WWII hero, often fought battles against vastly superior forces. But he led his men, outnumbered and outgunned as they were, to victory every time.

The moral of the story is that a good leader can elevate those around him. :victory:

Love the Audie Murphy point. Most people of a certain age think of him as a movie star not that the war movies he was in were mostly based upon his real acconts of what happened, with a few hollywood belishments.

A few people here talk about Schaub being slower and less moblie than the other guy, but Manning was sacked less than any QB and he is the least mobile qb there is. It is about getting the ball out quicker and faster and on target.

Some joke abot the comments regarding all the talk about Schaub being a leader, but I would rather it be said that he is than in the 5 previous years no one ever said that about that position.

Texans Horror, why is it all on Green and Dayne? I did not know that those were the only positions on the team? To put anything on Dayne who is a back-up (capable back-up) but that is it, back-up. Sorry but football is a team sport and since Schaub touches the ball on every play he is a major factor on how the season goes as well as the play calling by Kubiak and Sherman. I am not sure why you hate Schaub so much, but how about giving him a shot before you totally rag on the guy? Is that to much to ask?

Thorn
06-22-2007, 10:35 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Schwab is still an unproven 2nd string QB that we gave up to much for.

For the record, I hope my lack of enthusiasm for him is proven wrong. The Texans need a break.

Double Barrel
06-22-2007, 10:37 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Schwab is still an unproven 2nd string QB that we gave up to much for.

Who is "Schwab"? :um:

dalemurphy
06-22-2007, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=dalemurphy;683673]


The Texans have so much depth, some of it is starting. That's not good.

Depth will always be second in line to the starting line-up. I would have no problem drafting for depth if the Texans would take care of the starting lineup.

If the Texans had traded Andre Johnson in order to strenghten depth at WR, I would obviously agree that it would be bad. However, this team has improved it's starting lineup at QB, RB, DL, LB, and maybe CB while also improving playing depth (situational players) at DL, LB, CB, OL...

I can't imagine what's not good about that.

Specnatz
06-22-2007, 10:45 AM
Who is "Schwab"? :um:

Ohhhh the irony.


:splits: :doot: :fans:

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 11:00 AM
[QUOTE=Texans Horror;683681]

If the Texans had traded Andre Johnson in order to strenghten depth at WR, I would obviously agree that it would be bad. However, this team has improved it's starting lineup at QB, RB, DL, LB, and maybe CB while also improving playing depth (situational players) at DL, LB, CB, OL...

I can't imagine what's not good about that.

Eventually, they're all good moves. For this season, however...it's just going to take time for these guys to develop...

And IMO, the Texans improved areas where they were already good, or at least decent (in comparison to the rest of the team) and added depth at the others. Last year I would have said that the defensive line/linebackers was one of the strong points. It's been fortified. Receivers was pretty good, and it's taken a hit this offseason. I wasn't overly fond of the QB, but I didn't think he was the biggest problem with the team -- the Texans still put a lot of time and money into fixing the QB. The two weak spots - O-line and Defensive Secondary - have all but been overlooked. The issues in both areas is not depth. The Texans need better starters. But it has not been addressed. The weakest links in the chain have been left alone.

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 11:06 AM
Love the Audie Murphy point. Most people of a certain age think of him as a movie star not that the war movies he was in were mostly based upon his real acconts of what happened, with a few hollywood belishments.

A few people here talk about Schaub being slower and less moblie than the other guy, but Manning was sacked less than any QB and he is the least mobile qb there is. It is about getting the ball out quicker and faster and on target.

Some joke abot the comments regarding all the talk about Schaub being a leader, but I would rather it be said that he is than in the 5 previous years no one ever said that about that position.

Texans Horror, why is it all on Green and Dayne? I did not know that those were the only positions on the team? To put anything on Dayne who is a back-up (capable back-up) but that is it, back-up. Sorry but football is a team sport and since Schaub touches the ball on every play he is a major factor on how the season goes as well as the play calling by Kubiak and Sherman. I am not sure why you hate Schaub so much, but how about giving him a shot before you totally rag on the guy? Is that to much to ask?


I agree with you ten-fold that football is a team sport and dependent on many players. It's a great point. That's the reason I think the team will not do as well as others think. It's not based on the inability of any one person but rather areas of the team that have been overlooked. But I think the best acquisition this offseason was Green. A BYOBlocker style of running back will be pivotal for the Texans' offense, as is a running back who can catch. If the running game (mostly Dayne and Green, IMO) can open up for the passing game, the Texans will have success. If they can't, and the Texans remain as one-dimensional as they did in the first half of last season, the passing game will not be ready to support the running game. I cannot see the Texans winning in that scenario.

I don't hate Schaub, and I do want to give him a shot. But if he throws a couple of zingers in the first game, will everybody be crying for Sage to start, or are we going to give him time to improve in the system?

The Pencil Neck
06-22-2007, 11:17 AM
As far as I'm concerned, Schwab is still an unproven 2nd string QB that we gave up to much for.

For the record, I hope my lack of enthusiasm for him is proven wrong. The Texans need a break.


Is there any QB that you would have made a move for?

Schaub was the most coveted QB out on the market.

Would you have preferred:

Plummer?
Greene?
Carr?
Garcia?
Brady Quinn?
Beck?
Kolb?

Thorn
06-22-2007, 11:57 AM
Is there any QB that you would have made a move for?

Schaub was the most coveted QB out on the market.

Would you have preferred:

Plummer?
Greene?
Carr?
Garcia?
Brady Quinn?
Beck?
Kolb?

I'm not saying he was a bad choice, I'm just saying we gave up a lot for an unproven 2nd stringer when we already have an unproven 2nd stringer on the team. Is Sage as good as Schaub? Most folks think not, but I would have rather started Sage and drafted a newbie QB to train. We still haven't improved the OL, and Schaub or any QB starting for the Texas is going to feel the pain. I would have rather sacrificed Sage to the wolves while the new guy was training than to have acquired a new starting QB and throw him immediately into the game with a poor OL. If they don't improve that OL during next offseason then we'll just end up with another deer-in-the-headlights QB.

real
06-22-2007, 12:08 PM
I'm not saying he was a bad choice, I'm just saying we gave up a lot for an unproven 2nd stringer when we already have an unproven 2nd stringer on the team. Is Sage as good as Schaub? Most folks think not, but I would have rather started Sage and drafted a newbie QB to train. We still haven't improved the OL, and Schaub or any QB starting for the Texas is going to feel the pain. I would have rather sacrificed Sage to the wolves while the new guy was training than to have acquired a new starting QB and throw him immediately into the game with a poor OL. If they don't improve that OL during next offseason then we'll just end up with another deer-in-the-headlights QB.

What if the Texans felt like Matt Schaub was the best option available ?

What if they think he's capable of being a top tier QB in this leauge ?

Why would they pass on a guy they felt highly about just because ?

Your reasons for passing on Schaub aren't present...

You go after the players that you think are good.

Specnatz
06-22-2007, 12:28 PM
I agree with you ten-fold that football is a team sport and dependent on many players. It's a great point. That's the reason I think the team will not do as well as others think. It's not based on the inability of any one person but rather areas of the team that have been overlooked. But I think the best acquisition this offseason was Green. A BYOBlocker style of running back will be pivotal for the Texans' offense, as is a running back who can catch. If the running game (mostly Dayne and Green, IMO) can open up for the passing game, the Texans will have success. If they can't, and the Texans remain as one-dimensional as they did in the first half of last season, the passing game will not be ready to support the running game. I cannot see the Texans winning in that scenario.

I don't hate Schaub, and I do want to give him a shot. But if he throws a couple of zingers in the first game, will everybody be crying for Sage to start, or are we going to give him time to improve in the system?


Maybe I am missing something, but what position has been over looked? The team did not have huge amounts of money to spend and with the money they did have only a few top end players available, and they went for mega bucks that the team could not afford. In the draft the addressed DT, WR, DB and OL. FA and trades they addressed LB, OT, RB and QB. No team can address every single position in the offseason. Everything the coaches have said is that they will always look to improve the team when ever they can, so that means they are not ignoring anything.

It is up to the individual if he or she wants to be jumping to the back-up before more than half of the season is played out but why put it on others and how they act during the first game if you are or not optimistic. I am very optimistic and it is not only because of Schaub but because of what Smith and Kubiac have said.

TK_Gamer
06-22-2007, 01:42 PM
I trully believe the FO is following sane prudent doctrine, once the team has learned how to play like a winner and the cap-hell from casserly is wittled down, the final pieces of the puzzle can be put in place. you dont go buy a leer jet when you can barely fly a cesna.

maddogmrb
06-22-2007, 02:55 PM
[QUOTE=dalemurphy;683673]


The Texans have so much depth, some of it is starting. That's not good.

Depth will always be second in line to the starting line-up. I would have no problem drafting for depth if the Texans would take care of the starting lineup.


Correction: "most" of it is starting.

Texans Horror
06-22-2007, 03:00 PM
Maybe I am missing something, but what position has been over looked?

For starters, OT, Center, CB, S.

OT: Salaam being the back-up tackle, I don't feel comfortable with him starting. Black and Frye are not answers. Depth maybe, but that's depth starting, too.

Center: IR was pointed out earlier as a reason for adding depth. Well, Flanagan isn't getting any younger, and he was out a good portion of last season. We can probably anticipate him being out for a similar amount of time this year, too. Hodgdon was pulled after half a game. That's when McKinney came in. So this is a very weak link that has not been answered.

Defensive Backs: Lot of depth here. Not much high-quality starter material. The two guys drafted are for depth only. Again, this is one of the Texans' weakest areas. Something could have been done but was not. This is where somebody like Houston in the second round could have helped out big-time.

No team can address every single position in the offseason.

No, but I would have preferred them to address some of the weaker positions.

It is up to the individual if he or she wants to be jumping to the back-up before more than half of the season is played out but why put it on others and how they act during the first game if you are or not optimistic.

Well said!

HOU-TEX
06-22-2007, 03:10 PM
No, but I would have preferred them to address some of the weaker positions.


QB was the weakest position after last season. I'm not sure there were any other positions that we had to dumb down the playbook in order to get any kind of production out of.:) .

Second Honeymoon
06-22-2007, 03:15 PM
Personally, I felt that Jake Plummer would have been the right way to go, simply because he would have came cheap. I also felt that Sage had earned a shot at competing v. Jake as well. Obviously the Texans brass wanted to go a different direction and in the end we didn't overpay for Schaub. We were still able to get a great prospect in Okoye at #10 and basically chose Schaub instead of a Kalil or other 2nd round prospect in the 2nd Round.

Not that bad. I bet Atlanta wish they still had Schaub.....

dalemurphy
06-22-2007, 03:17 PM
QB was the weakest position after last season. I'm not sure there were any other positions that we had to dumb down the playbook in order to get any kind of production out of.:) .

The defense was dumbed down to accomodate to rookie starters: mario and demeco... That's one reason for optimism- it's the second season for all of these impact rookies that grew up last season.

MEGA SWATT
06-23-2007, 01:21 AM
Link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6947274)

More good press for our Texans. Also, go answer the poll question on the page. Looks like a bunch of bitter Falcons fans are the only ones to have reponded so far.

cool, I hope so(break-out season) I voted for MS:pirate:

Grams
06-23-2007, 06:49 AM
Audie Murphy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audie_Murphy), the highly decorated WWII hero, often fought battles against vastly superior forces. But he led his men, outnumbered and outgunned as they were, to victory every time.

The moral of the story is that a good leader can elevate those around him. :victory:

Case in point - Joe Montana.
The first year they won the Super Bowl (80-81). With 2 minutes left in a game and the 49ers down, Joe walks into the huddle, you can see in his eyes that he believes he can get the team close enough to make wth winning score. That is what leadership will do.

When Peyton is sacked you will usually see most of his OL back helping him up. Who helped DC up - ususally no one. DC lost this team a long time ago.

Schaub is a leader while he may not be Joe Montana, he is definitely a large upgrade over David Carr.

Texans Horror
06-23-2007, 04:01 PM
I've heard through that DC fought for his linemen (I think most QBs do). The argument that the guys up front didn't care for him or didn't want to block for him, or that AJ didn't like him, just doesn't hold water against what I have heard.

I'm not saying your wrong or that MS will not make a good leader. Just saying that from what I've heard Texans offensive players liked the guy and thought highly of him. If only he could have read defenses better and not run out of bounds so much...

brakos82
06-23-2007, 04:29 PM
I bet Atlanta wish they still had Schaub.....

We knida screwed them over. An extra 2nd rounder next year isn't worth losing 3 extra games over. :cowboy1:

Texanmike02
06-24-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm not saying he was a bad choice, I'm just saying we gave up a lot for an unproven 2nd stringer when we already have an unproven 2nd stringer on the team. Is Sage as good as Schaub? Most folks think not, but I would have rather started Sage and drafted a newbie QB to train. We still haven't improved the OL, and Schaub or any QB starting for the Texas is going to feel the pain. I would have rather sacrificed Sage to the wolves while the new guy was training than to have acquired a new starting QB and throw him immediately into the game with a poor OL. If they don't improve that OL during next offseason then we'll just end up with another deer-in-the-headlights QB.

You've got that wrong man.

We gave up 2 2nd rounders for an unproven 1st stringer (noone is sure but everyone thinks he can start and be a damn good one at that).

We have a PROVEN 2nd stringer on our bench. Sage couldn't beat out HWWNBN or even JAY FREAKING FIEDLER. He is probably closest to Cody Carlson, if you're going to tie him to a former Houston QB. He has great leadership, but just doesn't have the tools to start full time.

Mike

Vinny
06-24-2007, 10:02 AM
The offseason is too long...I have a hard time being critical of the players before they take one live snap in our offense. Pre-emptive QB bashing just seems so weak. I kinda like to hammer the guys who play poorly and praise the guys who play well based on what happens on the field myself...the season can't start soon enough for me.

Texans_Chick
06-24-2007, 10:42 AM
I'm not saying he was a bad choice, I'm just saying we gave up a lot for an unproven 2nd stringer when we already have an unproven 2nd stringer on the team. Is Sage as good as Schaub? Most folks think not, but I would have rather started Sage and drafted a newbie QB to train. We still haven't improved the OL, and Schaub or any QB starting for the Texas is going to feel the pain. I would have rather sacrificed Sage to the wolves while the new guy was training than to have acquired a new starting QB and throw him immediately into the game with a poor OL. If they don't improve that OL during next offseason then we'll just end up with another deer-in-the-headlights QB.

A few comments...

As for the 2007 draft class of QBs, I say meh. I'm not sure any of those guys are worth grooming. If you say Quinn, there was no guarantee that Quinn was going to be available at 8. (Besides Quinn makes me say meh).

I'd rather have Schaub + Rosenfels versus Rosenfels + noob QB from class of 2007.

As for the offensive line, though there are not that many teams that would trade straight up for our line, it is quite possible that QB change plus RB change really does make the line look better. (See Tony Romo, Steve McNair as recent examples of the QB effect on line play). Andre Johnson said that ocho viejo was originally coached to throw to certain receivers on the field and not read the defenses and had to be re-taught. And clearly, everyone agrees going into last season with a bunch of rookie running backs and trust them with figuring out how to run and do protection was asking a little much.

Here's a further discussion of this:

Link: David Carr of the Offensive Line: The Chicken Egg Question (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/category/texans/2007/04/19/david-carr-or-the-offensive-line-the-chicken-egg-question/)

and here:

Link: Does Video Lie: David Carr v. Matt Schaub (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/05/25/does-video-lie-david-carr-v-matt-schaub/)

I'm going to probably write some more on the offensive line stuff soonishly. I don't know if Schaub or Rosenfels are going to make this offense run better, but what I do know is what they had wasn't working, and the other offseason options available out there were not terribly compelling.

Brando
06-24-2007, 11:11 AM
A few comments...

As for the 2007 draft class of QBs, I say meh. I'm not sure any of those guys are worth grooming. If you say Quinn, there was no guarantee that Quinn was going to be available at 8. (Besides Quinn makes me say meh).

I'd rather have Schaub + Rosenfels versus Rosenfels + noob QB from class of 2007.

As for the offensive line, though there are not that many teams that would trade straight up for our line, it is quite possible that QB change plus RB change really does make the line look better. (See Tony Romo, Steve McNair as recent examples of the QB effect on line play). Andre Johnson said that ocho viejo was originally coached to throw to certain receivers on the field and not read the defenses and had to be re-taught. And clearly, everyone agrees going into last season with a bunch of rookie running backs and trust them with figuring out how to run and do protection was asking a little much.

Here's a further discussion of this:

Link: David Carr of the Offensive Line: The Chicken Egg Question (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/category/texans/2007/04/19/david-carr-or-the-offensive-line-the-chicken-egg-question/)

and here:

Link: Does Video Lie: David Carr v. Matt Schaub (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/05/25/does-video-lie-david-carr-v-matt-schaub/)

I'm going to probably write some more on the offensive line stuff soonishly. I don't know if Schaub or Rosenfels are going to make this offense run better, but what I do know is what they had wasn't working, and the other offseason options available out there were not terribly compelling.

I think you need to go work for ESPN so they can get some real insight on the Texans, they need it. TC great write up as always. Gotta like the word "soonishly".:cool:

nunusguy
06-24-2007, 12:10 PM
As for the 2007 draft class of QBs, I say meh. I'm not sure any of those guys are worth grooming. If you say Quinn, there was no guarantee that Quinn was going to be available at 8. (Besides Quinn makes me say meh).
I'd rather have Schaub + Rosenfels versus Rosenfels + noob QB from class of 2007.
As for the offensive line, though there are not that many teams that would trade straight up for our line, it is quite possible that QB change plus RB change really does make the line look better. (See Tony Romo, Steve McNair as recent examples of the QB effect on line play). Andre Johnson said that ocho viejo was originally coached to throw to certain receivers on the field and not read the defenses and had to be re-taught. And clearly, everyone agrees going into last season with a bunch of rookie running backs and trust them with figuring out how to run and do protection was asking a little much.
Here's a further discussion of this:

It's not like Schaub is anything remotely close to a slam-dunk as a solid NFL QB either. I think he's less of a risk than drafting a rookie QB right out of college. But there were a couple of other rookie QBs who many thought were atleast as good a prospect as Quinn, and the least of whom of course was the local product out of UofH.
But if we get into hypotheticals, how about this one: instead of using those two #2s on Schaub, go ahead and parlay next years #2, this years third rounder, along with our top pick and trade positions with the Browns and draft Joe Thomas. With this years #2 take the best QB on the Board, let him develope, and play Rosenfels in 2007 after dumping DC.
But to be finally set at LT and for the long-term with somebody like Thomas would be huge. Is there risk that he won't be the success in the NFL that a lot have predicted ? Sure, but I dunno if the risk is any higher than that of Schaub at QB ?

Vinny
06-24-2007, 12:29 PM
It's not like Schaub is anything remotely close to a slam-dunk as a solid NFL QB either. I think he's less of a risk than drafting a rookie QB right out of college. But there were a couple of other rookie QBs who many thought were atleast as good a prospect as Quinn, and the least of whom of course was the local product out of UofH.
But if we get into hypotheticals, how about this one: instead of using those two #2s on Schaub, go ahead and parlay next years #2, this years third rounder, along with our top pick and trade positions with the Browns and draft Joe Thomas. With this years #2 take the best QB on the Board, let him develope, and play Rosenfels in 2007 after dumping DC.
But to be finally set at LT and for the long-term with somebody like Thomas would be huge. Is there risk that he won't be the success in the NFL that a lot have predicted ? Sure, but I dunno if the risk is any higher than that of Schaub at QB ?many X higher than Schaub.....Schaub has been in this offense for 6 years....Schaub has 3 NFL training camps under his belt and won't need 2-3 years to "groom"...pssst, he is already "groomed". Kubiak may only get one chance ever to coach a NFL team. I'm sure he wouldn't want to look back and see that his only QB's during this time was the incredible self sacking QB and Sage "I can't even beat out 2nd string Dolphin chump QBs" Rosenfels. Schaub would probably be a Raider if we didn't make the move....he was the most "ready" QB on the market with upside. Rosenfels = Gifford Neilson.

Honoring Earl 34
06-24-2007, 12:59 PM
The one position that can change your team the most is QB . The team usually goes as he goes ( I know Ray Lewis and others ) .

If your QB gets to practice at 5:30 am , even beating the coach ... the team will work harder longer . Lombardi said .... the harder a man works , the harder it is for him to quit .

Schaub has already tried to cover for his guys . After all the Carolina Carr talk about how great it is to be with a real team ... Schaub was asked what he thought was the strength of the offense was ... he said the OL ... he's not dumb .

nunusguy
06-24-2007, 01:15 PM
many X higher than Schaub.....Schaub has been in this offense for 6 years....Schaub has 3 NFL training camps under his belt and won't need 2-3 years to "groom"...pssst, he is already "groomed". Kubiak may only get one chance ever to coach a NFL team. I'm sure he wouldn't want to look back and see that his only QB's during this time was the incredible self sacking QB and Sage "I can't even beat out 2nd string Dolphin chump QBs" Rosenfels. Schaub would probably be a Raider if we didn't make the move....he was the most "ready" QB on the market with upside. Rosenfels = Gifford Neilson.
I dunno.....that's a tough one and it's easy to be confidant about one player having more potential or having more upside or downside in this league than another. Easy for me and easy for you. And as far Kubiaks ability to identify
big-time talent, let me remind we are still waiting to assess the wisdom of Kubiaks choice of the #1 last year. Actually many have already gone thumbs down on that choice.
And I'm glad that DC moved on, but I'm still not sure if the problem was more him or more the OLines he had to play behind while he was here, though I think I know your opinion on the subject. I do know one of my major concerns about Schaub (or any QB) succeeding in Houston is because of the reservations I still have about the level of talent & competance of our OLine.
If we could land a talented LT, the incremental improvement of our OLine collectively would be quite frankly staggering IMO. And to get a young guy to boot who'd be here 10 years would be huge.
Understand I'm playing devils advocate here while we mark time until TC, because I do like the decision by Kubiak (& Smith). But it is not without risk, quite a bit I think. And as I've just said, there were other scenarios, other options for us to use those 2 very valuable second round picks on.

Texans Horror
06-24-2007, 01:37 PM
I think there are a lot of fans who don't necessarily doubt Matt so much as they don't trust the o-line.

Second Honeymoon
06-24-2007, 01:51 PM
A few comments...

As for the 2007 draft class of QBs, I say meh. I'm not sure any of those guys are worth grooming. If you say Quinn, there was no guarantee that Quinn was going to be available at 8. (Besides Quinn makes me say meh).

I'd rather have Schaub + Rosenfels versus Rosenfels + noob QB from class of 2007.


I agree with that statement but to be more thorough it would go like this:

quinn, sage, and kalil/jarrett/houston, and our 2008 2nd round pick
-or-
okoye, sage, and kalil/jarrett/houston, and our 2008 2nd round pick
-or-
okoye, schaub, sage, no kalil/jarrett/houston, no 2008 2nd round pick.

If Schaub plays like an average starting NFL QB or better we got a great deal. If Schaub struggles and is replaced in after 2-3 season the deal doesnt look as good but in no scenario is it a disaster other than possibly having to show even more patience in the team's development.

What I have maintained since day one is that we need to be patient with Schaub as fans because he has yet to take a snap. I know we are all dying for the season to start but we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Hopefully they will air some of the scrimmages once TC starts and we can get some early glimpses of MS to AJ deep. If that is the case we only have about 5 weeks to wait. One thing for sure is that its a new beginning for the whole organization. The albatross is gone and its now put up or shut up time for the rest of the Texans. Schaub will get a little leeway but its time for players like Dunta, Mario, TJ, and Brown/Earl to step up and improve if we are going to get anywhere.

TexansChick - great links to some great articles. thanks.

Second Honeymoon
06-24-2007, 01:56 PM
The one position that can change your team the most is QB . The team usually goes as he goes ( I know Ray Lewis and others ) .

If your QB gets to practice at 5:30 am , even beating the coach ... the team will work harder longer . Lombardi said .... the harder a man works , the harder it is for him to quit .

Schaub has already tried to cover for his guys . After all the Carolina Carr talk about how great it is to be with a real team ... Schaub was asked what he thought was the strength of the offense was ... he said the OL ... he's not dumb .

well Carr had no trouble cashing the checks and resigning with us. I guess the team wasn't 'real' but the checks sure as hell were. screw that loser, i hope he finds a way on the field against us this year.

Nothing would make me happier than seeing that little girl laid out on the field from a legal but mean hit. now that would be 'fun'. he deserves it and I none of the Texans would think twice about laying the wood to that ungrateful petty little jerk. I hope he has lots of 'fun' in Carolina. I'm not a Panthers fan, so I hope he somehow becomes the starting QB.

Then I can watch him get his butt kicked up and down the NFC, get benched for a 3rd string QB, and the experts and Carr disciples will be proven wrong once and for all.

nunusguy
06-24-2007, 02:13 PM
well Carr had no trouble cashing the checks and resigning with us. I guess the team wasn't 'real' but the checks sure as hell were. screw that loser, i hope he finds a way on the field against us this year.

Just for the record, I think the option to retain Carr was strictly one of a unilateral nature. Ours. He had no say in the matter.
But you're right, it is a new start for the whole organization and we can all rejoice in the knowlege of that fact.

Second Honeymoon
06-24-2007, 02:15 PM
Just for the record, I think the option to retain Carr was strictly one of a unilateral nature. Ours. He had no say in the matter.
But you're right, it is a new start for the whole organization and we can all rejoice in the knowlege of that fact.

yeah your right but he could have said he wanted to go elsewhere, but I doubt teams would have been foaming at the mouth after a 2-14 season. so he shut his mouth and cashed the check.

thanks for the correction though.

Texans_Chick
06-24-2007, 08:14 PM
I agree with that statement but to be more thorough it would go like this:

quinn, sage, and kalil/jarrett/houston, and our 2008 2nd round pick
-or-
okoye, sage, and kalil/jarrett/houston, and our 2008 2nd round pick
-or-
okoye, schaub, sage, no kalil/jarrett/houston, no 2008 2nd round pick.

If Schaub plays like an average starting NFL QB or better we got a great deal. If Schaub struggles and is replaced in after 2-3 season the deal doesnt look as good but in no scenario is it a disaster other than possibly having to show even more patience in the team's development.

What I have maintained since day one is that we need to be patient with Schaub as fans because he has yet to take a snap. I know we are all dying for the season to start but we don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves. Hopefully they will air some of the scrimmages once TC starts and we can get some early glimpses of MS to AJ deep. If that is the case we only have about 5 weeks to wait. One thing for sure is that its a new beginning for the whole organization. The albatross is gone and its now put up or shut up time for the rest of the Texans. Schaub will get a little leeway but its time for players like Dunta, Mario, TJ, and Brown/Earl to step up and improve if we are going to get anywhere.

TexansChick - great links to some great articles. thanks.


Problem is that you don't know who is going to be available going into the draft. You don't know Quinn is going to be at 8 for sure. And as much as I really do like Rosenfels, I wouldn't want to put all my eggs in his basket. (and the coaches who have been working with him over the course of the season didn't want to either).

So option one above, you can't count on because you don't know you can get Quinn at 8.

And option two above means you are putting all your eggs in the Rosenfels basket. Being thin at QB last year meant that the Texans basically had to go into operation shut down the QB after the Raiders game.

So, the Texans went option 3. Given the QBs available, I'm okay with that.

JMO. Thanks for the kind words.

The1ApplePie
06-25-2007, 07:42 AM
A Quinn/Jarrett combo would have been a great building block for the future.

I hope we finally go offense next year in the draft. Slaton/McFadden would be nice.

When we pulled the Schaub deal, my friend called me and said "We traded half our draft for a slower version of David Carr?" Hope he isn't right.

I prefer Quinn over Schaub myself. I think Quinn is faster and has the same arm, may even be smarter.

swtbound07
06-25-2007, 08:23 AM
A Quinn/Jarrett combo would have been a great building block for the future.

I hope we finally go offense next year in the draft. Slaton/McFadden would be nice.

When we pulled the Schaub deal, my friend called me and said "We traded half our draft for a slower version of David Carr?" Hope he isn't right.

I prefer Quinn over Schaub myself. I think Quinn is faster and has the same arm, may even be smarter.

mcfadden would be a beast. I disagree about quinn, i think he is soft. Carr...well, we won't do that. Schaub looks like the real deal. I liked Jarrett, would have liked to pair him with Schaub, but at the end of the day, you got to like where we are sitting today

The1ApplePie
06-25-2007, 08:33 AM
I wanted Scahub, and I am glad we got him. I just think we gave up too much to get him, and paid him too much money. If people like Moss and Green changed teams for low picks, it seems stupid to give up all that for an unproven guy.

Il_Bruno
06-25-2007, 08:53 AM
I wanted Scahub, and I am glad we got him. I just think we gave up too much to get him, and paid him too much money. If people like Moss and Green changed teams for low picks, it seems stupid to give up all that for an unproven guy.


randy moss and the raiders just wasnt going to work out, so the raiders actually did well in getting something for moss. Also, Schuab has more long-term potential because he's a lot younger and he's a QB, a position thats normally much kinder on the body and is viable well into the thirties.

i completely agree about giving schuab too much money, i would want him to prove it on the field before giving him all that money. kind of like the insane rookie contracts...but thats another topic...

it was a steep price at the time but im sure the falcons would want A LOT more now. Good decisive swift move by kubes and smith imo. I just hate to give up that second 2 though, tons of good players can be had in the second round.

eric138
06-25-2007, 02:01 PM
randy moss and the raiders just wasnt going to work out, so the raiders actually did well in getting something for moss. Also, Schuab has more long-term potential because he's a lot younger and he's a QB, a position thats normally much kinder on the body and is viable well into the thirties.

i completely agree about giving schuab too much money, i would want him to prove it on the field before giving him all that money. kind of like the insane rookie contracts...but thats another topic...

it was a steep price at the time but im sure the falcons would want A LOT more now. Good decisive swift move by kubes and smith imo. I just hate to give up that second 2 though, tons of good players can be had in the second round.


How is a little over 7 million too much money?

Il_Bruno
06-25-2007, 02:58 PM
im not all too famliar with salary cap figures and such, but a 48 million dollar contract for a backup (a very good one) who hasnt proven it as a starter seems a little steep for me. Maybe its not though, maybe 7 mil isnt much for the starting NFL QB these days, like i said im not an expert on that.

Specnatz
06-25-2007, 03:23 PM
im not all too famliar with salary cap figures and such, but a 48 million dollar contract for a backup (a very good one) who hasnt proven it as a starter seems a little steep for me. Maybe its not though, maybe 7 mil isnt much for the starting NFL QB these days, like i said im not an expert on that.

it is $48 mill over the life of the contract but that is after the first tow years which are very low in dollar figures so the Texans could cut ties if he does not workout without the cost being very much.

The Pencil Neck
06-25-2007, 03:54 PM
im not all too famliar with salary cap figures and such, but a 48 million dollar contract for a backup (a very good one) who hasnt proven it as a starter seems a little steep for me. Maybe its not though, maybe 7 mil isnt much for the starting NFL QB these days, like i said im not an expert on that.

He's less than 2.2 million this year. I'm not sure offhand how much guaranteed money he has but it's a back loaded contract. I think we can cut him after a couple of years without any dead money or we can renegotiate if he works out.

EDIT: He is 6.1 million next year.

rickyb
06-25-2007, 06:08 PM
Nothing would make me happier than seeing that little girl laid out on the field from a legal but mean hit.

Nothing would make me happier than a picture on the front page of the Chronicle Monday morning after the Panther-Texan game:
< picture of Amobi and Mario laying on top of Carr, grimacing from behind a sod-soaked facemask >
Texans Sack Panthers

Never mind that Carr does not have the starting job yet.

Second Honeymoon
06-25-2007, 06:29 PM
Nothing would make me happier than a picture on the front page of the Chronicle Monday morning after the Panther-Texan game:
< picture of Amobi and Mario laying on top of Carr, grimacing from behind a sod-soaked facemask >
Texans Sack Panthers

Never mind that Carr does not have the starting job yet.

yeah, its a longshot he gets that job unless DelHomme is seriously injured, and I wouldn't wish that on anyone including DC himself. His best bet is to lay low, cash fat checks, and relearn his position from the ground up.....maybe he can take up baseball, I don't know. if nothing else, he does have a strong arm.

My problem is when he says bad things about an organization that was very fair to him and a fanbase that was very patient with him. The season ticket holders didn't revolt or turn on Carr, ever. Yeah, there were some boos but the fans have always cheered when there has been anything to cheer for. My point is that five years is unprecedented patience. It just gets my goat when he implies the Texans were not a 'real' team and that our fans were fickle or just not into it.

He could have said 'championship contender' or 'playoff team' but he said 'to finally be on a real team' which in as many words implied the Texans are a joke.

sorry icak and friends, i have had a hand in mutating a Schaub thread into a Carr thread...once again. back on topic. Schaub is great. Discuss.

the wonger need food
06-25-2007, 06:44 PM
When we pulled the Schaub deal, my friend called me and said "We traded half our draft for a slower version of David Carr?" Hope he isn't right.

I prefer Quinn over Schaub myself. I think Quinn is faster and has the same arm, may even be smarter.

Your friend doesn't have much NFL football knowledge. Schaub can read defenses, has pocket presence, can throw down the middle of the field, make quick decisions and put touch on the ball while getting it over the defensive lineman. He is the polar opposite of Carr.

And Quinn can't even beat out Derek Anderson. Taking that guy would have been a huge mistake.

Runner
06-25-2007, 08:24 PM
Nothing would make me happier than a picture on the front page of the Chronicle Monday morning after the Panther-Texan game:
< picture of Amobi and Mario laying on top of Carr, grimacing from behind a sod-soaked facemask >
Texans Sack Panthers


Nothing would have made the board happier than Young in the same situation last year. :eek:

Texans_Chick
06-25-2007, 08:55 PM
Your friend doesn't have much NFL football knowledge. Schaub can read defenses, has pocket presence, can throw down the middle of the field, make quick decisions and put touch on the ball while getting it over the defensive lineman. He is the polar opposite of Carr.


We hope. Not enough of a sample size in live fire to know for sure about Schaub, but enough to be encouraged.

Schaub hasn't had many NFL games, and hasn't had many games where defenses prepared specifically for him.

Personally, I think it would be beyond wonderful if Schaub turns out as you describe him, but at this point I'd settle for just some normal fairly consistent QB play.

the wonger need food
06-25-2007, 09:20 PM
We hope. Not enough of a sample size in live fire to know for sure about Schaub, but enough to be encouraged.

Schaub hasn't had many NFL games, and hasn't had many games where defenses prepared specifically for him.

Personally, I think it would be beyond wonderful if Schaub turns out as you describe him, but at this point I'd settle for just some normal fairly consistent QB play.


Well, at least we know he won't sidearm every third pass into a defensive lineman's facemask.... right???

One of the things that always peeved me about Carr was his lack of touch. I remember him throwing those dumpoffs to DD in the middle of the field and every one would be 100 MPH. It seemed like (when he did get the ball past the defensive lineman) there wasn't much finese and every ball was thrown as hard as possible.

But I see where you're coming from... it's way too early to tell how good Schaub is going to be. But looking at our former QB's flaws it just doesn't seem possible that he could have anywhere near the same amount of problems.

rickyb
06-25-2007, 10:49 PM
Nothing would have made the board happier than Young in the same situation last year. :eek:

LOL. :)

the wonger need food
06-26-2007, 07:05 AM
I guess you're not going to let go of this " great leader " thing go.


And why should he? We haven't had a leader at the QB position in this town since Pastorini played here.

maddogmrb
06-26-2007, 07:57 AM
And why should he? We haven't had a leader at the QB position in this town since Pastorini played here.

I guess Warren Moon was camel fodder......

maddogmrb
06-26-2007, 08:02 AM
We hope. Not enough of a sample size in live fire to know for sure about Schaub, but enough to be encouraged.

Schaub hasn't had many NFL games, and hasn't had many games where defenses prepared specifically for him.

Personally, I think it would be beyond wonderful if Schaub turns out as you describe him, but at this point I'd settle for just some normal fairly consistent QB play.

Agreed. Schaub has had a good OFF-season & shown OFF the field leadership and this is encouraging. But, when I'm evaluating the team I ask myself how many of our players would be starting on other teams. If most of our players would NOT be starting for at least 50% of the other teams, then we will be a sub-500 team. Apply this to Matt Schaub ......... how many other NFL teams would trade starters with us? I would venture to say less than 50% which, at this point, puts our starting QB in the lower half of the league's QB's. He has alot to prove and the talent appears to be there but, we've got to see it on the field before declaring him Brett Favre.

real
06-26-2007, 08:42 AM
Agreed. Schaub has had a good OFF-season & shown OFF the field leadership and this is encouraging. But, when I'm evaluating the team I ask myself how many of our players would be starting on other teams. If most of our players would NOT be starting for at least 50% of the other teams, then we will be a sub-500 team. Apply this to Matt Schaub ......... how many other NFL teams would trade starters with us? I would venture to say less than 50% which, at this point, puts our starting QB in the lower half of the league's QB's. He has alot to prove and the talent appears to be there but, we've got to see it on the field before declaring him Brett Favre.



Matt Schaub is an unknown....

Just like rookies coming in....

How many teams would have traded their starting QB for Jamarcus Russel ? Or Matt Leinart? How do you come up with your 50% ? What's going in to your equation?
Does the Titans getting rid of McNair and drafting Young essentially mount up to trading McNair for Young?

If Schaub were a highly touted rookie QB coming out this year and we drafted him, like say the Cardinals being excited about Leinart, should we not expect highly of our QB ? Especially one who has shown and made all the right moves ? I can pick out a million reasons to be excited about Schaub, and the only argument one can give to not be is simply a whisper in the wind...an unknown...Yeah he could be bad, but he also could be good or great....

A better question would be: How many teams in the leauge would have taken Matt Schaub as their starter OR their future this past off-season ?

In that answer you'll find more than your "50%" sir.

Historyhorn
06-26-2007, 10:33 AM
Agreed. Schaub has had a good OFF-season & shown OFF the field leadership and this is encouraging. But, when I'm evaluating the team I ask myself how many of our players would be starting on other teams. If most of our players would NOT be starting for at least 50% of the other teams, then we will be a sub-500 team. Apply this to Matt Schaub ......... how many other NFL teams would trade starters with us? I would venture to say less than 50% which, at this point, puts our starting QB in the lower half of the league's QB's. He has alot to prove and the talent appears to be there but, we've got to see it on the field before declaring him Brett Favre.

OK, let's evaluate which teams would trade QB's and which wouldn't. Let's start in the AFC East. The Pats have Brady, The Jets have Penn, The Bills have Lohsman, & the Dolphins have Green. I'd say the Bills and the Dolphins would trade their QB situation with the Texans.

AFC South: Colts have Peyton, the Titans have Young, the Jags have Leftwich & Garrard. Of that group, only the Jags might trade. They are not sold on either of their guys, but both have more experience than Schaub. Schaub may be a better QB over the long haul than Young, but I don't think they'd trade right now. So the Jags are a team to add to the list.

AFC North: Bengals have Palmer, Steelers have Big Ben, Browns have Frye and Quinn, & the Ravens have McNair. No way the Steelers or Bengals trade. The Browns certainly would and you'd have to think the Ravens would considering the age and miles on McNair.

AFC West: Chargers have Rivers, Raiders have Russell, Broncos have Cutler, Chiefs have Huard. The Chargers & Broncos seem to be set. The Raiders would trade, because Schaub has had a chance to learn for a couple of years. The Chiefs most certainly would trade.

NFC East: Giants have Eli, Cowboys have Romo, Washington has Jason Campbell, the Eagles have McNabb. Washington would trade. The Cowboys and the Eagles wouldn't. Give New York a year and they might, but not right now.

NFC South: Panthers have Delhomme, Saints have Brees, Bucs have Simms/Garcia, Falcons have Vick. Panthers and Saints are set. Atlanta let Schaub go so they like Vick over Schaub (that might change after dog fighting investigation finishes). The Bucs would trade in a heartbeat.

NFC North: Bears have Grossman, Lions have Kitna, Vikings have Jackson, & the Packers have Favre. Favre is the best QB in that division, but he's on the downhill slide. If the Packers management could make a choice without fan pressure, they'd trade. With the other three, it would be a no-brainer....they'd trade QB's.

NFC West: Seahawks have Hasselbeck, Rams have Bulger, Cards have Leinart, & the Niners have Alex Smith. I really think none of those would trade QB's right now.

That puts my count at 13 teams that would trade their starter for Schaub straight up right now. That number might change after we see how he performs this year. It could go up or down, but still that's not too shabby. How many teams would have traded their starting QB for David Carr straight up? I would highly doubt it would be 13. David couldn't even come up with a team that wanted him to be their starter as an un-restricted Free Agent this off-season.

Go Texans

michaelm
06-26-2007, 11:09 AM
OK, let's evaluate which teams would trade QB's and which wouldn't. Let's start in the AFC East. The Pats have Brady, The Jets have Penn, The Bills have Lohsman, & the Dolphins have Green. I'd say the Bills and the Dolphins would trade their QB situation with the Texans.

AFC South: Colts have Peyton, the Titans have Young, the Jags have Leftwich & Garrard. Of that group, only the Jags might trade. They are not sold on either of their guys, but both have more experience than Schaub. Schaub may be a better QB over the long haul than Young, but I don't think they'd trade right now. So the Jags are a team to add to the list.

AFC North: Bengals have Palmer, Steelers have Big Ben, Browns have Frye and Quinn, & the Ravens have McNair. No way the Steelers or Bengals trade. The Browns certainly would and you'd have to think the Ravens would considering the age and miles on McNair.

AFC West: Chargers have Rivers, Raiders have Russell, Broncos have Cutler, Chiefs have Huard. The Chargers & Broncos seem to be set. The Raiders would trade, because Schaub has had a chance to learn for a couple of years. The Chiefs most certainly would trade.

NFC East: Giants have Eli, Cowboys have Romo, Washington has Jason Campbell, the Eagles have McNabb. Washington would trade. The Cowboys and the Eagles wouldn't. Give New York a year and they might, but not right now.

NFC South: Panthers have Delhomme, Saints have Brees, Bucs have Simms/Garcia, Falcons have Vick. Panthers and Saints are set. Atlanta let Schaub go so they like Vick over Schaub (that might change after dog fighting investigation finishes). The Bucs would trade in a heartbeat.

NFC North: Bears have Grossman, Lions have Kitna, Vikings have Jackson, & the Packers have Favre. Favre is the best QB in that division, but he's on the downhill slide. If the Packers management could make a choice without fan pressure, they'd trade. With the other three, it would be a no-brainer....they'd trade QB's.

NFC West: Seahawks have Hasselbeck, Rams have Bulger, Cards have Leinart, & the Niners have Alex Smith. I really think none of those would trade QB's right now.

That puts my count at 13 teams that would trade their starter for Schaub straight up right now. That number might change after we see how he performs this year. It could go up or down, but still that's not too shabby. How many teams would have traded their starting QB for David Carr straight up? I would highly doubt it would be 13. David couldn't even come up with a team that wanted him to be their starter as an un-restricted Free Agent this off-season.

Go Texans

I think I agree with just about everything you said with one exception.
Before I say this, I acknowledge that I am probably in the minority on the following viewpoint:
I would take Schaub over Big Ben at this moment. Yeah, I know Ben won a Superbowl, but I have never considered him to be an upper echelon QB, or even a QB who was worth the hype he generated... just my opinion...

Texan_Bill
06-26-2007, 11:13 AM
I think I agree with just about everything you said with one exception.
Before I say this, I acknowledge that I am probably in the minority on the following viewpoint:
I would take Schaub over Big Ben at this moment. Yeah, I know Ben won a Superbowl, but I have never considered him to be an upper echelon QB, or even a QB who was worth the hype he generated... just my opinion...

Not as much as you think. I think a lot of people recognize that Ben was put in an offense that was safe for him, and yet productive. But no one would mistake Ben for Joe Montana!!

Double Barrel
06-26-2007, 11:31 AM
I guess you're not going to let go of this " great leader " thing go.

Dude, it was a joke!

:joker: = sarcasm

Perhaps you just fail to understand the term "inside joke". The leader thing has been a topic of silliness for awhile in a very slow off-season (see also "mentor"). Strange that everyone else gets the joke, but someone with your severe senility should obviously be forgiven.

Do you ever have anything of value to add to a discussion? Your bitterman attitude is weak (not to mention quite stale by this point).

If you gave a dollar to this site it would be the first positive contribution to a forum in your life.

But I suppose being a troll is a personality trait with some folks.

the wonger need food
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
I guess Warren Moon was camel fodder......

I don't believe that Moon was considered the leader of any Oiler teams. He had great stats but never led them to where they should have gone. All he had to do was throw for 1 TD pass in the second half against Buffalo and couldn't do it. If he would have I might have a different view of him.

He reminds me a lot of Carr in the way that he always felt sorry for himself for one reason or another. With the main difference obviously being that Moon had talent.

Second Honeymoon
06-26-2007, 12:01 PM
I guess you're not going to let go of this " great leader " thing go. But this is too much of a reach. Audie Murphy at 5ft plus inches and a little over a hundred lbs, A world war hero who fought in combat, and got every medal known to man. Is what to Schaub, ? One carries a football and the other used a 50 cal. machine-gun. Where or how do you put the two together. Audie Murphy wasn't a great leader, a killing machine yes, Hero, none better. The Schaubie will be running for his life, not taking any. As for you being a contributor... you should be! giving a bunch of cash to keep posting " He's a great leader " over and over.

please leave and go to the Panthers board. all you are is a big Carr homer that still has yet to turn the page. You are a pathetic fan.

just because your hero turned out to be a zero, don't hate on Schaub. If you want to hate on Schaub go to another board, another team, and another state.

your so damn stubborn you cant even admit that you were wrong and that your boy sucks. go home.

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 12:29 PM
OK, let's evaluate which teams would trade QB's and which wouldn't. I'd say the Bills and the Dolphins would trade their QB situation with the Texans.

The Browns certainly would and you'd have to think the Ravens would considering the age and miles on McNair.

The Raiders would trade, because Schaub has had a chance to learn for a couple of years.

The Bucs would trade in a heartbeat.

Go Texans

A few questions on your synopsis:

Why is Cam giving up his Green that he fought for?

Why would the Browns take Schaub when they have invested a good draft pick in Quinn?

Why would the Ravens take Schaub over McNair, who did pretty well last year, and Troy Smith, who is being groomed as the McN"heir" apparent?

Why are the Raiders trading their number one pick for Schaub?

Why would the Bucs want (yet another) QB?

I am not sure if you are oversimplifying the QB into a "plug and play" position or if you are underappreciating some of these teams, but I disagree on some of these synopses.

Specnatz
06-26-2007, 12:37 PM
OK, let's evaluate which teams would trade QB's and which wouldn't. Let's start in the AFC East. The Pats have Brady, The Jets have Penn, The Bills have Lohsman, & the Dolphins have Green. I'd say the Bills and the Dolphins would trade their QB situation with the Texans.

AFC South: Colts have Peyton, the Titans have Young, the Jags have Leftwich & Garrard. Of that group, only the Jags might trade. They are not sold on either of their guys, but both have more experience than Schaub. Schaub may be a better QB over the long haul than Young, but I don't think they'd trade right now. So the Jags are a team to add to the list.

AFC North: Bengals have Palmer, Steelers have Big Ben, Browns have Frye and Quinn, & the Ravens have McNair. No way the Steelers or Bengals trade. The Browns certainly would and you'd have to think the Ravens would considering the age and miles on McNair.

AFC West: Chargers have Rivers, Raiders have Russell, Broncos have Cutler, Chiefs have Huard. The Chargers & Broncos seem to be set. The Raiders would trade, because Schaub has had a chance to learn for a couple of years. The Chiefs most certainly would trade.

NFC East: Giants have Eli, Cowboys have Romo, Washington has Jason Campbell, the Eagles have McNabb. Washington would trade. The Cowboys and the Eagles wouldn't. Give New York a year and they might, but not right now.

NFC South: Panthers have Delhomme, Saints have Brees, Bucs have Simms/Garcia, Falcons have Vick. Panthers and Saints are set. Atlanta let Schaub go so they like Vick over Schaub (that might change after dog fighting investigation finishes). The Bucs would trade in a heartbeat.

NFC North: Bears have Grossman, Lions have Kitna, Vikings have Jackson, & the Packers have Favre. Favre is the best QB in that division, but he's on the downhill slide. If the Packers management could make a choice without fan pressure, they'd trade. With the other three, it would be a no-brainer....they'd trade QB's.

NFC West: Seahawks have Hasselbeck, Rams have Bulger, Cards have Leinart, & the Niners have Alex Smith. I really think none of those would trade QB's right now.

That puts my count at 13 teams that would trade their starter for Schaub straight up right now. That number might change after we see how he performs this year. It could go up or down, but still that's not too shabby. How many teams would have traded their starting QB for David Carr straight up? I would highly doubt it would be 13. David couldn't even come up with a team that wanted him to be their starter as an un-restricted Free Agent this off-season.

Go Texans

The only problem I have is that the teams in bold did not have some of those QBs before we traded for Schaub. The Texans traded with Atlanta before the draft.

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 12:38 PM
Matt Schaub is an unknown....

I can pick out a million reasons to be excited about Schaub, and the only argument one can give to not be is simply a whisper in the wind...an unknown...Yeah he could be bad, but he also could be good or great....



I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

real
06-26-2007, 12:44 PM
I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

If you want to take those stats from a limited sample, and clearly in situations which weren't always the best for a QB to succeed....then be my guest....

dalemurphy
06-26-2007, 12:47 PM
A few questions on your synopsis:

Why is Cam giving up his Green that he fought for?

Why would the Browns take Schaub when they have invested a good draft pick in Quinn?

Why would the Ravens take Schaub over McNair, who did pretty well last year, and Troy Smith, who is being groomed as the McN"heir" apparent?

Why are the Raiders trading their number one pick for Schaub?

Why would the Bucs want (yet another) QB?

I am not sure if you are oversimplifying the QB into a "plug and play" position or if you are underappreciating some of these teams, but I disagree on some of these synopses.


1. Green is 37, and he was best available at that point- if he could've gotten Schaub for a conditional 5th round pick in June, I'm sure he would've

2. If the Browns would've gotten Schaub, obviously that would've freed them to take someone other than Quinn- which I'm sure Crennel would've appreciated doing- particularly now that Quinn is apparently very unimpressive in OTAs.

3. McNair is beat up and aging and has difficulty getting the ball downfield these days. Troy Smith-- give me a break!

4. The Raiders tried to trade for Schaub before the draft but were outmaneuvered by the Texans

5. The Bucs have a stop-gap in Garcia, a retired vet in Plummer, and two guys- gradowski and simms who've proven to have serious issues

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 12:50 PM
If you want to take those stats from a limited sample, and clearly in situations which weren't always the best for a QB to succeed....then be my guest....

:user:

I'd be willing to open it up to his entire career, but that kind of facetiousness almost makes him sound like a rookie...

real
06-26-2007, 12:51 PM
but I disagree on some of these synopses.

What else is new

:cowboy1:

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 12:53 PM
1. Green is 37, and he was best available at that point- if he could've gotten Schaub for a conditional 5th round pick in June, I'm sure he would've

2. If the Browns would've gotten Schaub, obviously that would've freed them to take someone other than Quinn- which I'm sure Crennel would've appreciated doing- particularly now that Quinn is apparently very unimpressive in OTAs.

3. McNair is beat up and aging and has difficulty getting the ball downfield these days. Troy Smith-- give me a break!

4. The Raiders tried to trade for Schaub before the draft but were outmaneuvered by the Texans

5. The Bucs have a stop-gap in Garcia, a retired vet in Plummer, and two guys- gradowski and simms who've proven to have serious issues

I think if they really wanted Matt, they would have gotten him. They all had the chance. There must be a reason that those teams chose the quarterbacks they did, and I doubt it was simply that Matt wasn't available. Maybe the problem is that the Texans are the only team who thought Matt was worth two second-round picks.

Double Barrel
06-26-2007, 12:56 PM
I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

I think your "very solid reasons" are a matter of perspective. Stats are great for fantasy football, but fail to provide background for a deeper analysis. We can spin an argument in just about any direction with stats.

Perhaps I believe in Coach Kubiak more than I should, but I'm not going to be negative on his decisions and choices without giving him a chance to implement them. Kubiak chose Schaub, and he's had some great things to say about his potential to run this offense.

While I will not address the ignorant assumptions made by some, nobody has crowned Schaub as 'king'. There are those of us that wish to enjoy the seemingly positive direction that this franchise is headed, and that is just a choice for each individual fan to make.

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 12:56 PM
What else is new

:cowboy1:

Why Tru, whatever do you mean? Maybe poker's just not your game. I know! Let's have a spelling contest!

:cowboy1:

The Pencil Neck
06-26-2007, 01:07 PM
I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

Working from the same statistics:

He's thrown 6 interceptions but 4 of them were his rookie year. One of them last year happened in the Dallas game when he was down 10 points and had 26 second to go in the game and he threw it 60 yards into the endzone hoping his WR could make a play. That's 5 picks I don't have a problem with and I don't know offhand what was up with the 6th.

His QB rating his rookie year was 42. When he played a couple of full games in his second year, his rating was 98.1. Then in spot action his third year, his rating was 71.2. In the Dallas game, he went 3/5 with one pick but I've already pointed out the situation of that one pick. That's going to make his rating look worse. So I don't see any problem with his QB rating.

If you look at his rate of long throws, it's over TWICE what Carr was getting and that's if you include Schaub's and Carr's rookie stats. Last year, Carr had 442 attempts and 3 of them ended up in 40+ yard plays; in his career, Schaub has had 161 attempts and 4 of the have ended up in 40+ yard plays. If Schaub gets that same ratio and has the same number of attempts that Carr had last year, he'll get almost 11 40+ yard plays.

You point to his statistics as a reason to be worried and what I see there makes me hopeful.

real
06-26-2007, 01:09 PM
:user:

I'd be willing to open it up to his entire career, but that kind of facetiousness almost makes him sounds like a rookie...

Yeah, because your past has nothing to do with how people percieve you in the future ?

As I said, there are no real arguments as to why Schaub will be a failure ; merely a few fans that bring up hypothetical situations in which all the positives some how amount to the guy failing...

But, that's JMO.

real
06-26-2007, 01:11 PM
I think if they really wanted Matt, they would have gotten him. They all had the chance. There must be a reason that those teams chose the quarterbacks they did, and I doubt it was simply that Matt wasn't available. Maybe the problem is that the Texans are the only team who thought Matt was worth two second-round picks.

Maybe the Texans were the only team smart enough to give up two second round picks.


It's all a matter of perspective.

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 01:56 PM
Must be a matter of perspective cause any time a stat shows Matt in a negative way, or it is mentioned how poor and unchanged the line is, some people shrug it off.

Second Honeymoon
06-26-2007, 02:34 PM
Well, thanks for support 2nd honeymoon. I feel the if we don't agree. I must have a very good idea on whats going on. But D.Barrel alread threaten me about being a troll. You both want to put perfume on a pig and call it a real honey. I say... Let Schaub play, then see just what we got. You all keep blowing you party horns like this guy is the answere.. I want to see it before I crown him KING.


dude whatever, unlike you, I saw the emperor had no clothes and I saw that long before most people. Schaub has yet to play a down yet you criticize him and pine for your little Carr boy. Something tells me that you don't know squat.

I haven't said anything about Schaub being the definitive answer, but one thing I have said is that he deserves at least a snap before all you Carr zealots start throwing him under the bus. After all we gave that pinup doll of yours 5 years before most people woke up.

once again, I refer you to the Panthers board as you have little faith and even less smarts. take your negative nancy krap elsewhere. while you are at it, please learn to construct a proper sentence as your current vernacular outs you as an ignorant and bitter Carr homer. k thx bye

Second Honeymoon
06-26-2007, 02:37 PM
what is really pathetic is the people that are the first to criticize Schaub before he even plays a down for the Texans are the same yokels who still homered for Carr even after 5 years of just embarassing QB play.

I don't know what is going to happen this year in regards to Schaub or anything for that matter. He may or may not succeed. One thing I do know is that some of you guys have an agenda because your little boyfriend choir boy pansy got sent packing. its sad and pathetic.

Porky
06-26-2007, 02:56 PM
Must be a matter of perspective cause any time a stat shows Matt in a negative way, or it is mentioned how poor and unchanged the line is, some people shrug it off.

The line isn't that poor imo, especially if/when Spencer returns. If he can't return, LT is certainly an issue, as it is for 25 or so other teams. It may not be a great or even good line, but with a healthy Spencer it's at bare min about the NFL average, and improving.

As far as stats go, figures lie, and liars figure. I don't know how many times some fan from another team would wonder why many of us were so down on Carr last year. After all, they would point out, his completion % was great and his QB rating was pretty good until the end. Without the benefit of watching the games they didn't know that much of that was because the offense was dumbed down and most of his passes were little hitches and screens and so forth. And some fans are simply not very insiteful/knowlegable/perceptive even if they do watch the game. Stats don't win games, people do. I never saw a 90.8 QB rating win a game. Have you?

The Pencil Neck
06-26-2007, 03:01 PM
Must be a matter of perspective cause any time a stat shows Matt in a negative way, or it is mentioned how poor and unchanged the line is, some people shrug it off.

Ultimately, some people wanted Carr to continue to be our QB and are going to look for anything to hold against Schaub becuase he's not Carr.

If you're going to look at statistics, then you've got to interpret what they mean. If you say that Schaub has thrown 6 TD's and 6 INT's, well, that's only slightly better than Carr. But if you analyze those numbers, then they're actually much better than that. It's because of analysis like that and taking the game situations into account that so many people considered Schaub the best QB on the market.

Is Schaub a "proven" commodity? No. Was there a proven commodity out there that we could have gotten? Only flawed proven commodities. Our FO made the move to bring in the best QB that was on the market this offseason. Whether the move is going to work out or not remains to be seen.

Now, the next question is just how poor is our offensive line? Were the sacks given up a product of how bad the line was or how bad the QB was? Will "fixing" the QB position fix the line? That's the question. I think it will, you think it won't. That's not shrugging it off. That's just not agreeing. We'll have to see which way it goes.

dalemurphy
06-26-2007, 03:02 PM
I think if they really wanted Matt, they would have gotten him. They all had the chance. There must be a reason that those teams chose the quarterbacks they did, and I doubt it was simply that Matt wasn't available. Maybe the problem is that the Texans are the only team who thought Matt was worth two second-round picks.

One could make that argument about any of the QBs. For instance, Oakland was trying to trade down but nobody offered the "right" price". Quinn fell to 20 something- anyone could've traded up for him or taken him where he fell. I'm sure almost any QB in the league could be gotten for a price. However, there is only one team that actually pulls the trigger- that doesn't neccessarily mean the team overpayed for him. By that definition, every player in the league was overpayed for.

Drew Brees was available last year and 31 teams passed on him- I guess that means NO overpayed? Tom Brady was a 6th round pick. Every team in the NFL could've had him 5 times. I guess NE overpayed for him?

Lucky
06-26-2007, 03:06 PM
...Falcons have Vick...Atlanta let Schaub go so they like Vick over Schaub (that might change after dog fighting investigation finishes)
Yes, I think the Falcons could want to revisit that decision.

real
06-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Must be a matter of perspective cause any time a stat shows Matt in a negative way, or it is mentioned how poor and unchanged the line is, some people shrug it off.

LOL, that's your problem...

You keep leaning towards stats as your indicator....

No wonder you were so high on Dave...

When I talk about the positives of Schaub I'm not talking about anything statistical....

Historyhorn
06-26-2007, 03:29 PM
A few questions on your synopsis:

Why is Cam giving up his Green that he fought for?

Why would the Browns take Schaub when they have invested a good draft pick in Quinn?

Why would the Ravens take Schaub over McNair, who did pretty well last year, and Troy Smith, who is being groomed as the McN"heir" apparent?

Why are the Raiders trading their number one pick for Schaub?

Why would the Bucs want (yet another) QB?

I am not sure if you are oversimplifying the QB into a "plug and play" position or if you are underappreciating some of these teams, but I disagree on some of these synopses.

Look, the premise of my post was not to take into account the contract situations, what each team spent for the player, how many current QB's are on their roster. I know full well, that I'm neither an NFL coach nor an NFL GM, but I'm speculating and simplifying things by declaring that we're looking at each team having the straight up opportunity send their number one to us and our number one to them without cap concerns, draft picks, etc. Just potential production over the next three to five years.

So I'll answer your concerns:

The Dolphins got Trent Green with a fifth round pick as he was at the deadline for having to be cut from KC. He's productive but older than dirt. He's also like a candle....One good blow and he's out. The Dolphins would trade Trent "Methusela" Green for Schaub in a heartbeat.

The Browns aren't sold on Frye and took Quinn as their QB for the future, but there are serious question marks about Quinn's skills. Quinn will probably need at least part of the year to learn before he even takes the field and then let the horror show begin. Put Schaub behind their improved line (new OT, Steinback), Jamal Lewis, their recieving threats (Edwards, KWII), and their improving defense and they become competitive in the toughest division in the NFL. No playoffs, but in it until the last two or three weeks.

The Ravens got McNair because Boller couldn't cut it and was a bust. Their defense is the best in the league, but with Boller at the helm, their offense was so anemic, they couldn't make the playoffs. McNair helped them to a division crown, but he's a mobile QB who is aging. They'd trade because Schaub offers a better potential for success over 3 to 5 years. McNair is also an injury waiting to happen. Baltimore will contend again this year, but with Schaub, they'd contend for the next five. Anyone who would take Troy Smith over Schaub has sniffed too much glue. He could surprise, but no-one would rate him over Schaub.


The Raiders spent the number one overall on Russell, but he's at least a year away from really being able to help that team. His physical skills might make him a better QB than Schaub in five years, but over those five, they'll lose a bunch as he gets seasoned and learns the ropes. The Raiders would trade spots. Would you as a Texans fan take Russell straight up to lead the team this year? It'd spell at least three more years of losing.

Finally, the Bucs. They don't have a starting QB. Chris Simms has nevery recovered from having his spleen ruptured and then removed.
They've got Garcia who is on the downhill side of his career. Two years maybe? Chucky would take Schaub and send Garcia without a second thought. Don't even get me started with that Gradkowsky (sp?) cat.

The point is there are lots of teams who would like to have Schaub instead of who they've got, but circumstances get in the way. After the season, player's stock may rise or fall, but Schaub would give at least 13 teams a better chance to win than what they've got right now IMO.

Go Texans

lostboy
06-26-2007, 03:30 PM
One could make that argument about any of the QBs. For instance, Oakland was trying to trade down but nobody offered the "right" price". Quinn fell to 20 something- anyone could've traded up for him or taken him where he fell. I'm sure almost any QB in the league could be gotten for a price. However, there is only one team that actually pulls the trigger- that doesn't neccessarily mean the team overpayed for him. By that definition, every player in the league was overpayed for.

Drew Brees was available last year and 31 teams passed on him- I guess that means NO overpayed? Tom Brady was a 6th round pick. Every team in the NFL could've had him 5 times. I guess NE overpayed for him?


THere you go using logic on a message board again....:joker:

Overalls
06-26-2007, 03:33 PM
I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050


Not that I am ready to say Schaub is the next great QB or that he will be a bust, but he has played 3 years, not 4

badboy
06-26-2007, 03:40 PM
I had a full glass once, but I drank it. Does that make me a pessimist? Or am I an optimist because I think it might be filled again?

Specnatz
06-26-2007, 03:42 PM
I think there are some very solid reasons to be disconcerted about Matt joining the Texans, some of which have nothing to do with him. His record while playing for Atlanta, for one. His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

How many has Quinn thrown in the NFL or Russell? Every QB is inkown until they get the chance to start on a consistant basis, you bring up stats about how he has performed on a limited basis and want to use them to prove a point that holds no water.

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 03:43 PM
LOL, that's your problem...

You keep leaning towards stats as your indicator....

No wonder you were so high on Dave...

When I talk about the positives of Schaub I'm not talking about anything statistical....

Never was that high on "Dave."

real
06-26-2007, 03:55 PM
Never was that high on "Dave."

You're right....

You just wanted to keep him around for one more year because you are the rare breed of fan that actually likes watching bad QB play....

Gotcha!

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 04:04 PM
Look, the premise of my post was not to take into account the contract situations, what each team spent for the player, how many current QB's are on their roster. I know full well, that I'm neither an NFL coach nor an NFL GM, but I'm speculating and simplifying things by declaring that we're looking at each team having the straight up opportunity send their number one to us and our number one to them without cap concerns, draft picks, etc. Just potential production over the next three to five years.

The point is there are lots of teams who would like to have Schaub instead of who they've got, but circumstances get in the way. After the season, player's stock may rise or fall, but Schaub would give at least 13 teams a better chance to win than what they've got right now IMO.

Go Texans

Excellent point. I'm sure there's several QBs the Texans would trade Schaub for. For example, this Ultimate Mock Draft (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/michael_silver/04/11/ultimate.mock.part1/index.html)has the Texans taking Vince Young if they could take any player available (P. Manning, Brady, and Palmer were already chosen).

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 04:09 PM
How many has Quinn thrown in the NFL or Russell? Every QB is inkown until they get the chance to start on a consistant basis, you bring up stats about how he has performed on a limited basis and want to use them to prove a point that holds no water.

The point is that there is more reason to doubt that MS will be the Golden Child from Game 1 than simply "he is an unknown." The stats can back it up. They do hold water. You may disagree with them, but they fit.

real
06-26-2007, 04:12 PM
The point is that there is more reason to doubt that MS will be the Golden Child from Game 1 than simply "he is an unknown." The stats can back it up. They do hold water. You may disagree with them, but they fit.

Again we revert back to the stats...:gun:


I don't even think you really, truly believe in your own mind that those stats prove or even suggest a damn thing....

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 04:17 PM
I am humbled by everybody's passion for the Texans and their love for this guy. Believe me when I say I want Matt to succeed. But I have been told many times that the Texans have "the answer," going way back to their first picks. I have also seen an unwillingness to give players a chance to develop. It seems a good portion of the fan base wanted players canned after their first rookie mistake. I have seen Williams, Babin, Weary, and Winston all called busts at one point or another. The guys loved today are panned by October. I suspect at that time I will be arguing with some of you the same thing I am arguing now - that Matt will need time to develop. The only difference is that you will be calling for his head instead of giving him such unflinching praise. Just my :twocents:

Texans Horror
06-26-2007, 04:19 PM
Again we revert back to the stats...:gun:


I don't even think you really, truly believe in your own mind that those stats prove or even suggest a damn thing....

Suggest? Definitely.

real
06-26-2007, 04:26 PM
Suggest? Definitely.

I guess whatever floats your boat.

If you choose to look at stats without the context in which they were accumulated then I guess they could 'suggest' a whole lot.

GuerillaBlack
06-26-2007, 04:34 PM
You're right....

You just wanted to keep him around for one more year because you are the rare breed of fan that actually likes watching bad QB play....

Gotcha!
Damn...

Porky
06-26-2007, 04:39 PM
I am humbled by everybody's passion for the Texans and their love for this guy. Believe me when I say I want Matt to succeed. But I have been told many times that the Texans have "the answer," going way back to their first picks. I have also seen an unwillingness to give players a chance to develop. It seems a good portion of the fan base wanted players canned after their first rookie mistake. I have seen Williams, Babin, Weary, and Winston all called busts at one point or another. The guys loved today are panned by October. I suspect at that time I will be arguing with some of you the same thing I am arguing now - that Matt will need time to develop. The only difference is that you will be calling for his head instead of giving him such unflinching praise. Just my :twocents:

Huh? Name another QB that has had five years of the "quality" of play that David Carr had that is still fawned over by so many. Most fans, myself included, were extremely patient with the guy, but sooner or later you have to fish or cut bait. If he played in Philly they would have carved him up like a Thanksgiving Turkey and eaten him for lunch by now, and that is just the media. The fans would have then picked the leftover meat off his bones. Houston fans are some of the most patient and fogiving in the Country.

I have not seen Winston or Weary called busts. They were drafted too low to achieve that label. Babin, yes to some extent has been a bust, but again I think the majority of the fanbase has been extremely patient. On Mario, I myself have used the bust label, but only in relationship to his rookie year, and what we could have had instead. I can only speak for myself, but I am certainly not writing him off as a career bust. He still has a chance to be an impact player. You can't compare a rookie with a 5 yr vet. Keep things in their proper prospective. I will say that Mario and Jason Babin need to crap or get off the pot this year.

Runner
06-26-2007, 04:40 PM
The stats are too limited to have a high confidence level in the negative impression they indicate.

Schaub has played in too few games (that I daresay most of the members of this board haven't even seen) to form a solid basis for some of the level of success that is being predicted for him.

The most accurate prediction is that he will be better than Carr. While this is true, it doesn't say much. Rags and Sage would have been too, given the same opportunities Carr enjoyed. This is not to say Schaub isn't any better than those two, by the way.

Personally, I think most of the detailed analysis based on his very limited playing experience is jejune. However, until game time that is all we have.

Second Honeymoon
06-26-2007, 04:47 PM
The stats are too limited to have a high confidence level in the negative impression they indicate.

He has played in too few games (that I daresay most of the members of this board haven't even seen) to form a solid basis for some of the level of success that is being predicted for him.

The most accurate prediction is that he will be better than Carr. While this is true, it doesn't say much. Rags and Sage would have been too, given the same opportunities Carr enjoyed. This is not to say Schaub isn't any better than those two, by the way.

Personally, I think most of the detailed analysis based on his very limited playing experience is jejune. However, until game time that is all we have.

personal foul for using the term jejune on a football forum. :penalty: jk, very well put.

:fridge: :backsout:

michaelm
06-26-2007, 04:54 PM
... His QB rating (average was 69.2), number of passes over 40 (just 4 in four years), number of interceptions (6). I don't think the only argument for not taking Matt is "he is an unknown."

Got my stats here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

The point is that there is more reason to doubt that MS will be the Golden Child from Game 1 than simply "he is an unknown." The stats can back it up. They do hold water. You may disagree with them, but they fit.

Hey, if you're going to spin his stat for passes over 40yds as "just 4 in four years" why don't you spin his interceptions as "just 6 in four years"?

Well, maybe you need to work on presenting accurate facts (3 years, not 4) before you get around to polishing your consistency...

Maybe we can spin it as such:
After his rookie year, he has a QB rating of nearly 85.
In that time he has a better than 2 to 1 td/int ratio.
Also in that time, he threw a 40+ yard pass every 17 completions, and a 20+ yard pass every 5.666 completions...
He has only started 2 games in his career, yet has 1033 yards and 6 tds.

Those are all factual stats...

I got them here:
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/493050

I'm not saying anything about how I think Matt Schaub will perform this year... merely pointing out how malleable stats can be.

michaelm
06-26-2007, 05:25 PM
Personally, I think most of the detailed analysis based on his very limited playing experience is jejune.

Ur vocabulation is off the chain, yo...

holla.

rickyb
06-26-2007, 05:31 PM
I say... Let Schaub play, then see just what we got. You all keep blowing you party horns like this guy is the answere.. I want to see it before I crown him KING.

I'll grant you, we do not yet know if Schaub is the answer.

But we do know, with certainty, that Carr was not. Both he and the Texans benefit from a change of scenery.

rickyb
06-26-2007, 05:34 PM
Maybe the Texans were the only team smart enough to give up two second round picks.


thank you!

(there should be one of those animated widgets for a nuclear mushroom cloud)

Double Barrel
06-26-2007, 06:02 PM
The point is that there is more reason to doubt that MS will be the Golden Child from Game 1 than simply "he is an unknown." The stats can back it up. They do hold water. You may disagree with them, but they fit.

If you treat Schaub like you would a rookie QB, then you'd go by his college career. And those stats are nothing to sneeze at:

YR Team......| G | CMP ATT PYD TD IN
2001 Virginia | 11 | 140 240 1524 10 8
2002 Virginia | 14 | 288 418 2976 28 7
2003 Virginia | 11 | 281 403 2952 18 10

I'm not predicting anything with Schaub or even implying that he's definitely going to be a great QB.

What I have advocated is for Texans fans to be positive about our future, to hope that the signs we've seen so far are indications of greater things, and to actually believe in this team.

Is that really so hard to do? We gave our previous QB the benefit of the doubt, so why not do the same with our new QB?

Until the season starts and we actually see things in action, being positive or negative is a choice you make as a fan. But be careful of the company you keep when choosing to have a negative perspective, as some of those folks are bitter from a personality flaw.

Second Honeymoon
06-26-2007, 07:20 PM
Why is that anyone who doesn't fall in-step with you, you have to get personal and say they have a personal problem. You and 2nd always bring up Carr. I don't need to write about him. All I have to do is disagree and the fear strikes you both. He's gone... He's with a better team. End of story. Now we have new leadership. Can you just deal with that.

you have an agenda and no one is buying it. please go away. k thanks bye.

Double Barrel
06-26-2007, 07:26 PM
Can you just deal with that.

I think the bigger question is can you deal with it. :gun:

Why the hate, caddy?

I'd say the last thing that strikes me when you post is "fear". Probably the first thing I think of is pity, to be honest.

It's gonna' be alright, man. When the Texans get this thing going, and it's only a matter of time, I won't hold your negative attitude against you. I just hope it doesn't kill you first and you get to enjoy Texans success with the rest of us. :)

Porky
06-27-2007, 10:25 AM
Why is that anyone who doesn't fall in-step with you, you have to get personal and say they have a personal problem. You and 2nd always bring up Carr. I don't need to write about him. All I have to do is disagree and the fear strikes you both. He's gone... He's with a better team. End of story. Now we have new leadership. Can you just deal with that.

The reason that they keep bringing up Carr in response to your drivel is simple. They and everyone else that has seen your writings over the years, know you have a hidden agenda. Jeez, do you really take these people as fools? They weren't born on the back of a turnip truck ya know. They may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. :pirate:

Honoring Earl 34
06-30-2007, 11:25 AM
Now, that's too funny. A hidden agenda. LMAO ( is it the one where I take over the world and sell it to B. Gates ) Because anyone who reads me knows I don't buy into, Carr was the reason we haven't played as a team, but for a few games. Now that's what you are scared of, but mask it by saying I have a hidden agenda, a Carr lover and a Schaubie hater. All labels, because I don't buy into it's just one man who's the main reason for us being a team with a losing record. This is nothing new, no news to anyone here.

I think most folks don't consider him the only problem . I think most folks think that if you can change one position and make the most impact ... it would be QB .

Second Honeymoon
06-30-2007, 01:25 PM
Now, that's too funny. A hidden agenda. LMAO ( is it the one where I take over the world and sell it to B. Gates ) Because anyone who reads me knows I don't buy into, Carr was the reason we haven't played as a team, but for a few games. Now that's what you are scared of, but mask it by saying I have a hidden agenda, a Carr lover and a Schaubie hater. All labels, because I don't buy into it's just one man who's the main reason for us being a team with a losing record. This is nothing new, no news to anyone here.

whatever, go directly to Panthers board. do not pass go, do not collect $200. this is for fans of the Texans not fans of some crappy QB with nice hair.

real
06-30-2007, 04:04 PM
I don't buy into it's just one man who's the main reason for us being a team with a losing record. This is nothing new, no news to anyone here.

Neither do I. But he was definitely a part of the reason and being the QB that magnifies the fact. It's just life. Get over it.

:texflag:

The Pencil Neck
06-30-2007, 04:18 PM
All labels, because I don't buy into it's just one man who's the main reason for us being a team with a losing record. This is nothing new, no news to anyone here.

It's nothing new but I do disagree with this. I think there are plenty of instances where 1 person was the reason a team wasn't winning. Just last year, you've got the Titans losing and losing bad with Kerry Collins at the helm and then becoming winners with Young. You've got the Cowboys having problems with Bledsoe at the helm and then getting better with Romo at the helm.

How many times over the years have we seen teams be good with a good (or great) QB but when that QB goes down, the team falls apart? Are the Saints in the hunt for a playoff spot last year with Aaron Brooks as the QB?

One player can be the reason a team is a losing team. And in our case, I think one player was the reason we were a losing team last year. That doesn't mean that I think there are no other weaknesses on the team. But I think that with a better QB and no other improvements, we could have gone 9-7.

The Pencil Neck
06-30-2007, 04:57 PM
With a new coach, new offense and new defense last year... we should have gone 9 - 7 . WOW, that some idea.

The question is... why hasn't that idea occurred to YOU?

We finished 6-10. I can think of 4 games that we lost that we could easily have won. Our QB play was really bad and we could have won all of those games, and possibly others, with better QB play. That's 10-6 right there. So, yes, I think it's fairly obvious that with a different QB we could have gone 9-7.

Do you deny that we went 6-10?
Do you deny that we lost a game in overtime?
Do you deny that we lost a game in the last 30 seconds?
Do you deny that we lost a game by 4 points where our QB threw for 176 yards (which is over his average)?
Do you deny that we lost a game by 6 points where our QB gave the other team a TD when he fumbled and it was returned for a TD?


Why do you think that 9-7 was out of our grasp last year? Do you think we weren't one or two plays away in those other games?

DBCooper
06-30-2007, 05:18 PM
I always gave David Carr the benefit of the doubt until last year. Carr had better protection last year and looked horrible. I'm excited about Schaub, he looks like a QB that can make good reads and get the ball to someone who can make a play. Carr never learned to make his reads, maybe his fault maybe bad line play, doesn't matter now.

The Pencil Neck
06-30-2007, 08:17 PM
P. Neck, last year Vegas had us at 5.5 wins. Now I put my money on the over, this was before the season started. I need the last two games, a win against the Colts and the finale game to end with a win. Which had never been done before... Now I hit that, then you say we should have gone 9 / 7. I'm willing to say that I would have bet the ranch we wouldn't have won 9. You blowing smoke, if you think we have a chance at 9wins this year. Just put your money where you mouth is... I'll cover your bet and be happy about it.

Dude. What is it with you and gambling? Have you thought about seeing help about that?

Now, go back and read my post. How far away from 9 wins were we last year? That's the question.

the wonger need food
06-30-2007, 09:01 PM
You blowing smoke, if you think we have a chance at 9wins this year. Just put your money where you mouth is... I'll cover your bet and be happy about it.

Caddy, I'll make a wager with you... If the Texans win 9 or more games you go away and never come back. If they win 8 or less I will do the same. Put your money where your mouth is.

Texanmike02
07-01-2007, 03:46 AM
The question is... why hasn't that idea occurred to YOU?

We finished 6-10. I can think of 4 games that we lost that we could easily have won. Our QB play was really bad and we could have won all of those games, and possibly others, with better QB play. That's 10-6 right there. So, yes, I think it's fairly obvious that with a different QB we could have gone 9-7.

Do you deny that we went 6-10?
Do you deny that we lost a game in overtime?
Do you deny that we lost a game in the last 30 seconds?
Do you deny that we lost a game by 4 points where our QB threw for 176 yards (which is over his average)?
Do you deny that we lost a game by 6 points where our QB gave the other team a TD when he fumbled and it was returned for a TD?


Why do you think that 9-7 was out of our grasp last year? Do you think we weren't one or two plays away in those other games?

You can't pick it apart like that. This is a game of inches. Half of our wins were by 3 points or less... those could have easily been losses. You can easily blame the loss to the titans on the return team as well. There was too much wrong with this team to think that replacing one part would have fixed it. The kicking game was laughable all year. Field position didn't help matters. The running game was a joke until week 12 or 13. Can't put this at one man's feet.

maddogmrb
07-01-2007, 08:16 AM
You can't pick it apart like that. This is a game of inches. Half of our wins were by 3 points or less... those could have easily been losses. You can easily blame the loss to the titans on the return team as well. There was too much wrong with this team to think that replacing one part would have fixed it. The kicking game was laughable all year. Field position didn't help matters. The running game was a joke until week 12 or 13. Can't put this at one man's feet.

Agreed......... DC had his probs but, so did the oline, rb's, wr's, special teams, coaching, dline, olb, and secondary. I think that about covers it.......:cowboy1:

Runner
07-01-2007, 08:39 AM
Agreed......... DC had his probs but, so did the oline, rb's, wr's, special teams, coaching, dline, olb, and secondary. I think that about covers it.......

And that's how they end up 2-14 in 2005.

The Pencil Neck
07-01-2007, 12:23 PM
You can't pick it apart like that. This is a game of inches. Half of our wins were by 3 points or less... those could have easily been losses. You can easily blame the loss to the titans on the return team as well. There was too much wrong with this team to think that replacing one part would have fixed it. The kicking game was laughable all year. Field position didn't help matters. The running game was a joke until week 12 or 13. Can't put this at one man's feet.

Of course you can pick it apart like that. Sure, ultimately we did not make the plays to be a winning team. However, the point is, that we weren't that far. People are making it sound like we had absolutely no shot of even reaching 8-8 and the fact is, we were not that far away. There is a razor's edge difference from being a winning team and being a losing team.

With several of these games, if someone else had stepped up then we could have won. The defense could have stopped the Bills on that last drive OR DC could have made that last 3 yard completion for the first down to keep the ball away from the Bills offense.

But that's not the point. One person had a chance to make a few plays and we would have been a winning team. DC did not perform at an acceptable level. That's why he's gone.

Did we have a lot of problems? Yes. But are you saying that a team has to be perfect and without weakness to be a winning team? That's silly. Every team has weaknesses. People around here have been making excuses for our poor QB play by blaming every other aspect of the team for so long that we're starting to have the misconception that a team has to be a powerhouse to be a contender. One player can make that much of a difference.

Texanmike02
07-13-2007, 03:26 AM
Did we have a lot of problems? Yes. But are you saying that a team has to be perfect and without weakness to be a winning team? That's silly. Every team has weaknesses. People around here have been making excuses for our poor QB play by blaming every other aspect of the team for so long that we're starting to have the misconception that a team has to be a powerhouse to be a contender. One player can make that much of a difference.

I'm not saying a team has to be perfect. The problem is we don't have strengths to balance out our weaknesses.. We don't do anything great... and we do alot of things HORRIBLY... The truth of the matter is... until we find a nucleus on the lines and in the different position groups in general... as well as in the locker room... we're going to be a young team with potential who looks like world beaters one week... and div2 dog's the next. For ever game you point to saying we could have won.. I can point to a game we were fortunate at the very least, to win. I suppose you're right... we might be able... if we have EVERYTHING develop the way we want it to... to limp into the playoffs as a 9-7 wild card.. I just don't see that happening. I wouldn't say its unlikely.. I would say it is improbable... I think we're going to have to disagree on this one... but hey.. its just fun to argue with someone who can eloquently express themselves without getting personal.

Mike

The Pencil Neck
07-13-2007, 10:22 AM
I'm not saying a team has to be perfect. The problem is we don't have strengths to balance out our weaknesses.. We don't do anything great... and we do alot of things HORRIBLY... The truth of the matter is... until we find a nucleus on the lines and in the different position groups in general... as well as in the locker room... we're going to be a young team with potential who looks like world beaters one week... and div2 dog's the next. For ever game you point to saying we could have won.. I can point to a game we were fortunate at the very least, to win. I suppose you're right... we might be able... if we have EVERYTHING develop the way we want it to... to limp into the playoffs as a 9-7 wild card.. I just don't see that happening. I wouldn't say its unlikely.. I would say it is improbable... I think we're going to have to disagree on this one... but hey.. its just fun to argue with someone who can eloquently express themselves without getting personal.

Mike


YOU SUXXOR... or something like that. :)

The first 3 games of the year last season, our defense really stunk up the joint. And if you look at our defense, you can definitely pick it apart. We didn't get pressure from our line. We weren't that good at blitzing. We didn't cause turnovers. We've basically got two strong safeties who seem to bite on every fake. DRob is playing more like a 2 and Faggins should be a nickel. Our outside linebackers didn't perform. BUT... as terrible as we are, over the last 13 games of the season we only gave up 290 yards per game. That's actually pretty strong. If we could have averaged that for the first 3 games, our defense would have been ranked like 8th in yardage allowed.

And that's something I think we can hang our hats on and use to build for the future. Our coaching staff and our team found ways to win last year when they could have found ways to lose. We overcame some pretty abysmal offensive performances. We went 4-4 over the last 8 games of the season. I think there's a lot more positive there than you do.

And, of course, last year I started the season as a Carr supporter and I ended the season on the Anybody But Carr bandwagon. I think that just changing the QB is going to make things a lot easier. I expect at least average QB play from Schaub and if we get that, it's going to be much better than what we got last year and that's going to make things a lot better. I understand if someone finished the season still supporting Carr that they're not going to expect much from Schaub because they think the same problems still exist that caused Carr so many problems. I just don't agree. :)

DBCooper
07-13-2007, 10:53 AM
And, of course, last year I started the season as a Carr supporter and I ended the season on the Anybody But Carr bandwagon. I think that just changing the QB is going to make things a lot easier. I expect at least average QB play from Schaub and if we get that, it's going to be much better than what we got last year and that's going to make things a lot better. I understand if someone finished the season still supporting Carr that they're not going to expect much from Schaub because they think the same problems still exist that caused Carr so many problems. I just don't agree. :)


I started last year as a Carr supporter also. Carr played awful.

I agree with you, Schaub should eliminate some of the problems Carr created for our offense.

Texanmike02
07-13-2007, 08:47 PM
YOU SUXXOR... or something like that. :)

The first 3 games of the year last season, our defense really stunk up the joint. And if you look at our defense, you can definitely pick it apart. We didn't get pressure from our line. We weren't that good at blitzing. We didn't cause turnovers. We've basically got two strong safeties who seem to bite on every fake. DRob is playing more like a 2 and Faggins should be a nickel. Our outside linebackers didn't perform. BUT... as terrible as we are, over the last 13 games of the season we only gave up 290 yards per game. That's actually pretty strong. If we could have averaged that for the first 3 games, our defense would have been ranked like 8th in yardage allowed.

And that's something I think we can hang our hats on and use to build for the future. Our coaching staff and our team found ways to win last year when they could have found ways to lose. We overcame some pretty abysmal offensive performances. We went 4-4 over the last 8 games of the season. I think there's a lot more positive there than you do.

And, of course, last year I started the season as a Carr supporter and I ended the season on the Anybody But Carr bandwagon. I think that just changing the QB is going to make things a lot easier. I expect at least average QB play from Schaub and if we get that, it's going to be much better than what we got last year and that's going to make things a lot better. I understand if someone finished the season still supporting Carr that they're not going to expect much from Schaub because they think the same problems still exist that caused Carr so many problems. I just don't agree. :)


I started last year as a Carr supporter as well... and I certainly jumped off his bandwagon.. and like I said.. I think that the marriage was a bad one with very little planning... I place blame at everyone's feet... and figure there's more than enough to go around. I agree with you on the defense as well... but it seemed to me that like so many bad teams.. we gave up big plays when it mattered. I also think we have at least put band aids on the problems Carr did face. Namely Black... while I'm not wild about him as a T... I think he does give us somebody with some experience and someone who will be out there day in and day out. I think that Green is an upgrade... I just don't think that we have done enough to get over the hump. I think this year's team is better than last years team... and I think it IS and 8-8 team... I just don't think we'll reach that potential this year.

Mike

Pantherstang84
07-14-2007, 12:12 AM
Of course you can pick it apart like that. Sure, ultimately we did not make the plays to be a winning team. However, the point is, that we weren't that far. People are making it sound like we had absolutely no shot of even reaching 8-8 and the fact is, we were not that far away. There is a razor's edge difference from being a winning team and being a losing team.

With several of these games, if someone else had stepped up then we could have won. The defense could have stopped the Bills on that last drive OR DC could have made that last 3 yard completion for the first down to keep the ball away from the Bills offense.

But that's not the point. One person had a chance to make a few plays and we would have been a winning team. DC did not perform at an acceptable level. That's why he's gone.

Did we have a lot of problems? Yes. But are you saying that a team has to be perfect and without weakness to be a winning team? That's silly. Every team has weaknesses. People around here have been making excuses for our poor QB play by blaming every other aspect of the team for so long that we're starting to have the misconception that a team has to be a powerhouse to be a contender. One player can make that much of a difference.


Amen Brother.
:whip:

The Pencil Neck
07-14-2007, 12:36 AM
I started last year as a Carr supporter as well... and I certainly jumped off his bandwagon.. and like I said.. I think that the marriage was a bad one with very little planning... I place blame at everyone's feet... and figure there's more than enough to go around. I agree with you on the defense as well... but it seemed to me that like so many bad teams.. we gave up big plays when it mattered. I also think we have at least put band aids on the problems Carr did face. Namely Black... while I'm not wild about him as a T... I think he does give us somebody with some experience and someone who will be out there day in and day out. I think that Green is an upgrade... I just don't think that we have done enough to get over the hump. I think this year's team is better than last years team... and I think it IS and 8-8 team... I just don't think we'll reach that potential this year.

Mike

I think that we have already put band aids on the problems that Carr faced and that Carr was so emotionally broken that he couldn't take advantage of them. (And, like you, I blame Carr's problems on the previous regime for mishandling him and not bringing him along correctly.) I think that's why we didn't make any big offensive line moves this offseason. I don't think Black was brought in to do anything other than improve our depth and provide some competition to make more people step up. I don't think that Schaub is going to face the intense 70 sack pressure that some doubters think he's going to face.

And IF Schaub is as good at reading defenses as people have said he is, our line is not going to be facing the same sorts of blitzes and amount of pressure that they did when Carr was in there because he's going to make them pay. Carr very rarely made anyone pay for blitzing him. If Schaub can make that hot read and get the ball out quick to the right guy in stride, teams are going to have to be more careful with when and how they bring pressure.

I think we've got a good shot at hitting 8-8. I think we're going to make that. Of course, if we have some bad luck then we could be worse. And if we have some good luck, then we could be better.

rickyb
07-14-2007, 09:50 AM
I think that we have already put band aids on the problems that Carr faced and that Carr was so emotionally broken that he couldn't take advantage of them. (And, like you, I blame Carr's problems on the previous regime for mishandling him and not bringing him along correctly.)

{cut}

I think we've got a good shot at hitting 8-8. I think we're going to make that. Of course, if we have some bad luck then we could be worse. And if we have some good luck, then we could be better.

o I am glad Carr is gone. Good for the Texans, and good for Carr.
o I wish Carr success elsewhere, if for no other reason than it gives eSPiN fodder to continue to badmouth the Texans -- it makes for good locker room motivation. But seriously, I wish Carr well. Seems a good guy, just a tough start.
o I genuinely believe that 8 or 9 wins is in the cards this year. Were I an odds maker in Vegas, the over/under would be 8.5, no doubt.
o Not to be a :homer, but I am so geeked for this season. :fans:

rickyb
07-14-2007, 09:52 AM
I think that we have already put band aids on the problems that Carr faced and that Carr was so emotionally broken that he couldn't take advantage of them. (And, like you, I blame Carr's problems on the previous regime for mishandling him and not bringing him along correctly.)

{cut}

I think we've got a good shot at hitting 8-8. I think we're going to make that. Of course, if we have some bad luck then we could be worse. And if we have some good luck, then we could be better.

o I am glad Carr is gone. Good for the Texans, and good for Carr.
o I wish Carr success elsewhere, if for no other reason than it gives eSPiN fodder to continue to badmouth the Texans -- it makes for good locker room motivation. But seriously, I wish Carr well. Seems a good guy, just a tough start.
o I genuinely believe that 8 or 9 wins is in the cards this year. Were I an odds maker in Vegas, the over/under would be 8.5, no doubt.
o Not to be a :homer:, but I am so geeked for this season. :fans:

HJam72
07-14-2007, 10:06 AM
I think that we have already put band aids on the problems that Carr faced and that Carr was so emotionally broken that he couldn't take advantage of them. (And, like you, I blame Carr's problems on the previous regime for mishandling him and not bringing him along correctly.) I think that's why we didn't make any big offensive line moves this offseason. I don't think Black was brought in to do anything other than improve our depth and provide some competition to make more people step up. I don't think that Schaub is going to face the intense 70 sack pressure that some doubters think he's going to face.

And IF Schaub is as good at reading defenses as people have said he is, our line is not going to be facing the same sorts of blitzes and amount of pressure that they did when Carr was in there because he's going to make them pay. Carr very rarely made anyone pay for blitzing him. If Schaub can make that hot read and get the ball out quick to the right guy in stride, teams are going to have to be more careful with when and how they bring pressure.

I think we've got a good shot at hitting 8-8. I think we're going to make that. Of course, if we have some bad luck then we could be worse. And if we have some good luck, then we could be better.

I started to joke that he made them pay with a 2 yd. pass, but IIRC he made the two yard passes when they didn't blitz, and just danced around waiting to get sacked when they did.

I still think Carr can be a good starter, but it's not gonna happen anytime soon and I don't think it will actually happen in Carolina. Carr may be the next Schaub trade in a few years. In other words, at some point he might be the best available, experienced, back-up QB. First, he's got a lot of learning to do, and bad habits to break. I think Carr and the Texans both failed each other.

HJam72
07-14-2007, 10:11 AM
Back on Schaub, I don't see how we can't win a couple more games with him replacing Carr. We probably could've done that just by replacing Carr with Rosenfels, if he'd been healthy. I can't wait to see our offense with a QB who isn't constantly digressing, waiting for the O-line to become All Pro while stairing down AJ.