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Spike
06-14-2007, 11:49 PM
As I was driving into Houston this morning, I got to listen to a Rick Smith interview on 610. (BTW - What happened to the old morning crew?) Living in Austin, I don't get much Texans news on the radio, so it was a real treat to hear something that I didn't have to find on the internet.

Looking back at this off-season, you have to admire what the front office has accomplished in the past couple of months. It is June and we have no idea how it will work out, but at the very least, you have to respect that these guys had the balls to make some tough decisions, take the heat of local and national critism based on previous mistakes, and make bold moves to try to make this team better...now. The front office could have easily taken a more conservative approach, but in doing so, I just think it would have delayed the progress that we are starting to see now.

Without having put on pads in 2007, the Texans have accomplished three major goals. We cut our losses with DC and brought in a young, promising QB who at the VERY LEAST has injected the fan base and organization with new hope and excitment for the upcoming season and the provided the team with the new attitude and leadership that was simply lacking the past couple of seasons. The initial backlash and commentary was tough, but I think we have moved past (if not completely, in large part) the second guessing from last year's draft that would have persisted for another season or two if we had not made a move.

Second, we have appeared to made the moves this year to take the financial hit to free up cap space next year and in doing so let go players from the previous regime who just did not fit the mold of what we are trying to accomplish now. This year we really cleaned house and got to start over...next year we will have the flexibility to build.

Finally, with limited cap space, we have appeared to brought in some veteran players to a young squad who will increase competition on the squad and either crack the starting line up or provide more quality depth accross the board. The Texans were not able to bring in the "big name" free agent (although Schaub and Green were at the top of the list at their positions), the front office was able to sprinkle in a lot of mid-level guys to improve the feel of the locker room.

I am excited to see the following position battles:

(1) RB - Green and Dayne seem to be set, but the third spot is up for grabs. I think Gado, Lundy and Taylor all have the potential to surpass Dayne, but at the same time, I can't see all three of them making the team. Do we think any of these guys has the talent to be the RB of the future to be groomed over one or two seasons or do we look to upgrade next draft?
(2) DT - Travis Johnson starting to look better before getting injured, we pick up Maddox of the streat who ends the season strong, bring in a solid veteran in Zgonina and draft Okoye. This could be our deepest position.
(3) CB- Faggins or Fletcher?
(4) OT - Can Spencer come back and play? Winston, Salaam and Black can all play either side.
(5) WR - I don't get a whole lot of comfort that we are in fact comfortable with Walter as our #2 if we are actively shopping for another body at WR. Can Mathis stay healthy and contribute? Will Jacoby prove he is worth a third round selection? Does Andre Davis have what it takes?

I think we were lucky to finish with 6 wins last season, but I think the team has improved enough for two more wins.

phantom17
06-15-2007, 12:12 AM
I'm a feelin' 9-7:fans: !!!

maddogmrb
06-15-2007, 08:32 AM
I am excited to see the following position battles:

(1) RB - Green and Dayne seem to be set, but the third spot is up for grabs. I think Gado, Lundy and Taylor all have the potential to surpass Dayne, but at the same time, I can't see all three of them making the team. Do we think any of these guys has the talent to be the RB of the future to be groomed over one or two seasons or do we look to upgrade next draft?
(2) DT - Travis Johnson starting to look better before getting injured, we pick up Maddox of the streat who ends the season strong, bring in a solid veteran in Zgonina and draft Okoye. This could be our deepest position.
(3) CB- Faggins or Fletcher?
(4) OT - Can Spencer come back and play? Winston, Salaam and Black can all play either side.
(5) WR - I don't get a whole lot of comfort that we are in fact comfortable with Walter as our #2 if we are actively shopping for another body at WR. Can Mathis stay healthy and contribute? Will Jacoby prove he is worth a third round selection? Does Andre Davis have what it takes?

I think we were lucky to finish with 6 wins last season, but I think the team has improved enough for two more wins.

Good post.

1- I really liked what I saw of Taylor in the Cleveland game last year. I hope they give him a legit chance at it. My picks for RB would be Green, Taylor, and the rookie from ND or Lundy. Dayne and Gado appear to me to be just stop-gap players. While these players don't get folks overly excited, it could be a solid position for us and I believe Taylor could develop into being "more than a solid player".

2- The dline ended last year playing better and I believe that, if MW can stay healthy and focused, Okoye can show some spurts of being really good in limited playing time, and the rest of the line continues to meld together and stay healthy; that this could be one of the strong points of the team. For Okoye, I say "limited playing time" because I hope they bring him along slowly and allow him to mature into his position. He MAY be the exception but, there really NEVER has been a rookie lineman on either side of the ball as young as he is come in and make an impact right away .... at least to my knowledge. And I would hate for him to get the tar beat out of him physically and mentally so that he becomes damaged goods kinda like a certain QB we all know.

3- Faggins or Fletcher? This could be a REAL problem for the team. IF someone surprises here, like Bennett, it would be very good for this team. At this point, it appears to be a real weakness.

4- OT? I prefer to look at the entire line. Played better at the end of last year with a GREATLY scaled back passing attack and offensive scheme. Literally every position on our oline is a question mark, though. We can't look at any one position and say that someone has it locked down and we are solid at that position. So, IF Spencer comes back strong, IF they all stay healthy, IF Winston or someone else takes control at RT, IF Flanagan or McKinney takes control at C, IF the guards improve (they did not have a good year last year); then Schaub may have time to set up and read the defense ......... a luxury that a certain other QB never had.

5- WR2 is so up in the air that we can't even worry about WR3&4. Other than AJ, there is not one other WR on this team who has done diddly squat in the pros. Potential "appears" to be there in Walter and Jones but, we all have seen potential come and go each year. So, IF legit WR2 and WR3 appear from this group, it would be a blessing.

You didn't discuss the safety and OLB positions.

6- Safety is another area that appears to be a real weakness on this team and other than late draft picks and UFA, we have done nothing to address it. IF 2 players step up and solidify both positions, then the entire defense will be significantly improved. I was hoping that Zabransky would take a shot at it ........ he has the speed and mental makeup to be a good safety. But, the coaching staff has yet to call me. Safety appears to be a real weakness.

7- OLB was a real soft spot last year. There is alot of competition but, only from mediocre players and veteran cast offs from other teams. We need 2 players to step up and solidify these spots. With Okoye probably 2-3 years from really being an impact player, I wanted us to use our #1 here. Water under da bridge, though. Greenwood was barely solid last year and the other side was not. I believe we will be solid here but, no where near a strength on this team.

So, my conclusion is that we still have too many IF's on this team to be overly enthused. Will they be better than last year? I believe they will. Will they win more games? Maybe not. IMO, we need another good year of building depth while sprinkling in a couple of impact FA's and draft picks. I think the team took HUGE risks this year with our 1st 2 draft picks when there were other solid draft picks out there who would have solidified positions for us for years to come. What we have now are 2 big IF's for our first 2 picks.

nero THE zero
06-15-2007, 08:49 AM
I'm not really buying the whole "injecting optimism into the fanbase" or "bold moves" line. That means absolutely nothing because they do not translate directly into winning. Now that is not to say I dislike the offseason moves, because I love them, but there is no reason to put a crown on the head of the Smith/Kubiak regime until they put a winning product on the field.

badboy
06-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Most "experts" hve indicated our over all off season was productive and changes are positive. We just have to go with what is on paper and what has happened in OTAs. Same as every year. Kick off will bring the answers.

TK_Gamer
06-15-2007, 09:31 AM
I feel positive considering what we had to work with cap-wise this year, next year will be the real icing on the cake year IMHO. With more money freed up we can go after some of the early offseason free agents instead of settling for leftovers like we have been. a good "ball-hawking" FS would be where I would start, and if noone steps up this year, a decent CB2 and WR2. maybe get an OLB and more O-line depth in the draft. this year could go anywhere from sobering to suprising but next year we should really start to solidify a contender.

badboy
06-15-2007, 11:06 AM
I feel positive considering what we had to work with cap-wise this year, next year will be the real icing on the cake year IMHO. With more money freed up we can go after some of the early offseason free agents instead of settling for leftovers like we have been. a good "ball-hawking" FS would be where I would start, and if noone steps up this year, a decent CB2 and WR2. maybe get an OLB and more O-line depth in the draft. this year could go anywhere from sobering to suprising but next year we should really start to solidify a contender.I think you've nailed it. If draft turns out as successful as last season, we should have made good inroads towards a solid team. This season should be very interesting as "potential" should escalate into getting the job done. We could have a very solid base going into free agency next year. Smith has shown he signs players with CAP in mind and we will soon know if his players are "players" or fill ins. Last season, he looked like a genius. What will he do with some bucks to spend? And one more good draft? Oh, boy! I think we are ok at LB but see safety, CB and WR as areas that may have to be addressed in 08. We should be able to take care of that with draft & FAs.

threetoedpete
06-15-2007, 12:48 PM
I'm not really buying the whole "injecting optimism into the fanbase" or "bold moves" line. That means absolutely nothing because they do not translate directly into winning. Now that is not to say I dislike the offseason moves, because I love them, but there is no reason to put a crown on the head of the Smith/Kubiak regime until they put a winning product on the field.

I believe David Barron of the chronicle documented the fall of Lance and John prety good. I will not miss Heckle and Jeckle. I was out of their demographic and I grew out of Jerry Lewis, bathroom comedy at an early age.

I saw some people banging on Jamie Dukes the other day. I think he said it prety good the other night. Just get to .500. That's the first thing. Can we win three games in a row. If we win the first game, that will be the first time I believe in frachise history that they've acomplished that feat. Win the first two, and that's the first baby step to becoming a play off team and not an also ran. They would have put together their first four game winning streak by coming out of the chute 2-0. And that's what you gotta have. Winning streaks. This organazation has to learn to put together win streaks. They have to learn how to have a winning attitude. They have to learn how to close out games and win. Agreed about the question marks along the o-line. But from my tree, even though we don't have a dominate OLT, they are deeper along the lines than they have ever been. It's a rough schedule. But for the first time we get a decent bye week. Win the first two and all things are possible. Not ready myself to put up 9-7, but they have a chance if they can stay healthy and they are hungry to win. Just get to 500.

imatexan
06-17-2007, 03:16 PM
Sporting news gave our offseason an A-, only behind San Fran and New England!

powerfuldragon
06-17-2007, 04:54 PM
I'm a feelin' 9-7:fans: !!!
i think 9-7 at best... the realist in me is looking for a 7-9 season.

Immobilarity
06-18-2007, 08:06 AM
I'm taking the middle road here and predicting 8-8!

Porky
06-18-2007, 10:11 AM
My early guess is 8-8, but I can see 9-7 or really stretching it, maybe even 10-6 if Schaub is the real deal and Green can stay healthy for 16 games and the dline performs to its talent level. I could also easily see 7-9, or in a worst case 6-10, if things don't break our way with injuries and/or we have too many under performers. But, all in all, I say 8-8 right now.

real
06-18-2007, 10:40 AM
I'm looking for and expecting play-offs this year...

We may not get there, but those are my expectations...

I think the fact that we've never been there is going to be our biggest challenge and not really lack of talent...I think we're good enough to get in, we just need guys to play and act like it...

Kaiser Toro
06-18-2007, 11:34 AM
I put my money where my mouth has been and pounded the over on the Texans winning more than 6 games with a money line at -160 and for them to make the playoffs with a money line at +700. For the record I have the Texans at 12-4.

Even if they can't reach 12 wins I am feeling very good about my action.

Porky
06-18-2007, 11:58 AM
I put my money where my mouth has been and pounded the over on the Texans winning more than 6 games with a money line at -160 and for them to make the playoffs with a money line at +700. For the record I have the Texans at 12-4.

Even if they can't reach 12 wins I am feeling very good about my action.

The over/under on wins is 6? I like the over on that a lot. I see 6 as the possible bottom, which is a push, or is it 6.5 wins? I still like the over on that as well. Can someone here in Texas put a small wager on that? How does that work?

Also, I don't understand the money line. Is there any significance to that?

Kaiser Toro
06-18-2007, 12:07 PM
The over/under on wins is 6? I like the over on that a lot. I see 6 as the possible bottom, which is a push, or is it 6.5 wins? I still like the over on that as well. Can someone here in Texas put a small wager on that? How does that work?

Also, I don't understand the money line. Is there any significance to that?

Yes it is 6. Where the money line comes is that if you want the over you have to bet $160 to win $100 since it is -160. If it were +160 then you would have to wager $100 to win $160. Does that make sense?

Porky
06-18-2007, 12:38 PM
Yes it is 6. Where the money line comes is that if you want the over you have to bet $160 to win $100 since it is -160. If it were +160 then you would have to wager $100 to win $160. Does that make sense?

Ok, got it. Well, I wouldn't bet that much, my wife would kill me. I might bet 40 or so, I could get away with that, but it doesn't really seem worth it then.

badboy
06-18-2007, 02:39 PM
I put my money where my mouth has been and pounded the over on the Texans winning more than 6 games with a money line at -160 and for them to make the playoffs with a money line at +700. For the record I have the Texans at 12-4.

Even if they can't reach 12 wins I am feeling very good about my action.12/4 ? Wow. Give me your insight as I really need the good news. Man I hope you are right! I'd run screaming naked into the night! I agree that your over 6 is a good if not 100% safe bet; but 12- 4? I am sure you mentioned this on other threads but can't find with quick search.

The1ApplePie
06-18-2007, 03:17 PM
It all depends if Mario and Amobi are busts like TJ and Babin or not. A ton of money used there instead of fixing the secondary.

Hopefully Schaub can live up to his potential, and not be another AJ Feely.

I'm gald we have Green at RB.

Overalls
06-18-2007, 05:03 PM
It all depends if Mario and Amobi are busts like TJ and Babin or not.

I don't think I would label Babin a bust. Has he lived up to being a 1st round pick? No. But he did lead our pitiful pass rush in sacks last season. For all the grief we get for giving the Titans the picks we did to move up and get Babin, the Titans did next to nothing with those picks. I think this season we will see Babin as less of a every down player and more of a pass rush specialist. Still not worth a first, but I can see him getting more sacks than last season.

ATXtexanfan
06-18-2007, 05:12 PM
if TJ and Babin aren't busts then they are absolutely disappointing

Porky
06-18-2007, 05:31 PM
I don't think I would label Babin a bust. Has he lived up to being a 1st round pick? No. But he did lead our pitiful pass rush in sacks last season. For all the grief we get for giving the Titans the picks we did to move up and get Babin, the Titans did next to nothing with those picks. I think this season we will see Babin as less of a every down player and more of a pass rush specialist. Still not worth a first, but I can see him getting more sacks than last season.

We are splitting hairs here. I'm not sure it matter what the Meatballs did with their picks. First, we may have made different, better choices. Second, Hindsight is 20/20. You have to go back to that day. You only make that deal if you think Babin is a major impact pass rusher. There is no other way you make that deal. Using that as a guide, he has been a major bust.

Texans Horror
06-18-2007, 07:39 PM
It is June and we have no idea how it will work out, but at the very least, you have to respect that these guys had the balls to make some tough decisions, take the heat of local and national critism based on previous mistakes, and make bold moves to try to make this team better...now.

I disagree with you on the point of the Texans are making bold moves to win now because I don't think Matt is going to come out and make an impact like Vince Young, which is what I think it would take. In fact, by giving up those picks, I put the Texans squarely in the "we are okay with stinking this year, but maybe next year we will be alright" bracket.

If you don't like that argument, my other one is the LT. A win-now approach would have had the Texans doing everything to get Joe Thomas -- an instant fix at the LT, or Ryan Kalil -- an instant fix at Center. Both positions are in sore need of help, but instead of fixing the problem today the Texans are content with keeping the talent they have and drafting a left tackle in the later rounds, meaning he probably won't see the field for another year or two.

I am excited to see the following position battles:

(1) RB - Green and Dayne seem to be set, but the third spot is up for grabs. I think Gado, Lundy and Taylor all have the potential to surpass Dayne, but at the same time, I can't see all three of them making the team. Do we think any of these guys has the talent to be the RB of the future to be groomed over one or two seasons or do we look to upgrade next draft?
(2) DT - Travis Johnson starting to look better before getting injured, we pick up Maddox of the streat who ends the season strong, bring in a solid veteran in Zgonina and draft Okoye. This could be our deepest position.
(3) CB- Faggins or Fletcher?
(4) OT - Can Spencer come back and play? Winston, Salaam and Black can all play either side.
(5) WR - I don't get a whole lot of comfort that we are in fact comfortable with Walter as our #2 if we are actively shopping for another body at WR. Can Mathis stay healthy and contribute? Will Jacoby prove he is worth a third round selection? Does Andre Davis have what it takes?

I think we were lucky to finish with 6 wins last season, but I think the team has improved enough for two more wins.


On those points, 1-5,

(1)I think the position battle is for that third spot. Probably Lundy takes it. I think Dayne surging last year and being the lead rusher last year probably keeps him a spot, especially if he is healthy. Green is the obvious #1.
(2)I think picking up Amobi is probably the best first-round draft pick for the Texans since drafting Andre Johnson. He fills a major hole and should be around for a long time.
(4)I don't think Spencer will be back, but I wasn't impressed with him when he was in. I think Winston is the clear RT and should be left there. The huge possibility that Salaam/Black may start reassures me that the Texans are not interested in winning this year. They are fine with Matt being on his back for a season or two.
(5)The Texans need a #2 WR. They don't have one yet. Not having one is going to kill the offense. Thank God Green can catch...

TK_Gamer
06-19-2007, 06:44 AM
I disagree with you on the point of the Texans are making bold moves to win now because I don't think Matt is going to come out and make an impact like Vince Young, which is what I think it would take. In fact, by giving up those picks, I put the Texans squarely in the "we are okay with stinking this year, but maybe next year we will be alright" bracket.

If you don't like that argument, my other one is the LT. A win-now approach would have had the Texans doing everything to get Joe Thomas -- an instant fix at the LT, or Ryan Kalil -- an instant fix at Center. Both positions are in sore need of help, but instead of fixing the problem today the Texans are content with keeping the talent they have and drafting a left tackle in the later rounds, meaning he probably won't see the field for another year or two.




On those points, 1-5,

(1)I think the position battle is for that third spot. Probably Lundy takes it. I think Dayne surging last year and being the lead rusher last year probably keeps him a spot, especially if he is healthy. Green is the obvious #1.
(2)I think picking up Amobi is probably the best first-round draft pick for the Texans since drafting Andre Johnson. He fills a major hole and should be around for a long time.
(4)I don't think Spencer will be back, but I wasn't impressed with him when he was in. I think Winston is the clear RT and should be left there. The huge possibility that Salaam/Black may start reassures me that the Texans are not interested in winning this year. They are fine with Matt being on his back for a season or two.
(5)The Texans need a #2 WR. They don't have one yet. Not having one is going to kill the offense. Thank God Green can catch...

instant fix? what are you smokin? and do you have any idea what it would have taken to get Thomas? so we basicly trade away this year and next years draft to get a guy who could be average in the NFL? I dont agree with tha at all. we would have had to given up probably 1st and 3rd this year and 1st and 2nd next year and then some to move up and take thomas. Is anyone worth that? definately not a LT.
The Texans FO did what they had to in order to set up next year and the year after. we will be in good to very good shape cap-wise then to make moves in FA and the draft. and as far as this season goes, It aint even started yet. I have no doubt we are not through making deals or aquisitions. the first roster cuts will land us 1 or 2 players, and the final cuts will probably reveal a few more. The end result will be an improved record this year, with alot more depth, and a bonafide shot at the playoffs next year.

Could Schaub be inadequate? sure anyone new could be less than what we hoped. but I firmly believe we made almost every move we could have for the future of the team. we werent even close talent wise to contend, and you dont sell the farm on a prayer. If you make it to the playoffs but cant compete, then major deals to put you over the top are ok. The only spot we didnt fill that I think was important was FS. But the season hasnt started yet. We will see what they do down the stretch heading up to opening day.
Alot more could change. Go Texans!

Texans Horror
06-19-2007, 12:03 PM
instant fix? what are you smokin? and do you have any idea what it would have taken to get Thomas? so we basicly trade away this year and next years draft to get a guy who could be average in the NFL? I dont agree with tha at all. we would have had to given up probably 1st and 3rd this year and 1st and 2nd next year and then some to move up and take thomas. Is anyone worth that? definately not a LT.
Some would argue that for a team that has never, NEVER had that coveted left tackle, that selecting a guy who seems tailor-made for ZBS would be a huge boon. It would have given any Texans QB adequate protection, and far better than the protection of Salaam/Black.

The Texans FO did what they had to in order to set up next year and the year after. we will be in good to very good shape cap-wise then to make moves in FA and the draft.


My point exactly. The Texans are being set up not for this year, but for the years after it. This was not an instant-fix offseason, so I don't predict the Texans will do much better than they did last year. 5-11.

infantrycak
06-19-2007, 12:38 PM
Some would argue that for a team that has never, NEVER had that coveted left tackle, that selecting a guy who seems tailor-made for ZBS would be a huge boon. It would have given any Texans QB adequate protection, and far better than the protection of Salaam/Black.

Which utterly ignores that the top two prospects were off the board when the Texans picked. You can't complain on one hand that giving away picks is long term rather than short term and then espouse something which would have required giving away picks as a short term solution.

My point exactly. The Texans are being set up not for this year, but for the years after it. This was not an instant-fix offseason, so I don't predict the Texans will do much better than they did last year. 5-11.

Hellooooo--they were 6-10 last year. Every team, every year builds with an eye on both the long and short term--it isn't an either/or. Guaranteed Kubiak and Smith aren't looking 3 years down the road for a winning season.

eriadoc
06-19-2007, 01:10 PM
In defense of Babin, he was drafted and brought in to play a completely foreign position. By year two, when he should have started to get a better feel for the 3-4 OLB position, he injured his shoulder. Last year, he was back in the 4-3 after a couple years out of it (and never at the pro level), and he regisered 5 sacks in limited playing time. He wasn't in there very often, as Weaver and Williams registered a ton of playing time. Furthermore, he put on some good pressure even in non-sack situations.

So yeah, he hasn't been everything you'd hope for from a 1st-round pick, but the potential is still there. Actually, I would hazard a guess that if you were somehow able to gauge production per snaps played, or similar, he would show favorably from last year.

He isn't one of Kubiak's guys, though, so I am not sure he'll ever get a real chance to shine here.

Spike
06-19-2007, 02:15 PM
I'm not really buying the whole "injecting optimism into the fanbase" or "bold moves" line. That means absolutely nothing because they do not translate directly into winning. Now that is not to say I dislike the offseason moves, because I love them, but there is no reason to put a crown on the head of the Smith/Kubiak regime until they put a winning product on the field.

Thanks for all the responses. Lets agree to disagree on the response above. In my mind, I think the Texans organization has made mistakes both on AND off the field to create fan frustration and concern. No, these moves may not immediately result into winning, but it was an aggressive move in that direction. Based on the short history of this organization, I think that the front office HAS to continue to (i) make these types of moves and (more importantly) (ii) get it right more often than not to gain (or regain) the confidence in its fan base.

Unfortunately, it isn't just about winning any more. I think most of us realize that it will probably take one more year to start seenig the results on the field that we want. Above and beyond winning, I think the front office and coaching staffing have to demonstrate that they can make the right decisions to get this thing turned around. In my mind, this season HAS to be as much about winning on the field as it is about regaining the trust and devotion of the fans.

I won't disagree with your point of view, but I definitely give these guys the props for making the move. They could have taken a more conservative approach to "buy" them some extra time to turn things around and they had the guts to go for a quicker fix. As a fan, I appreciate it...and I hope that they got it right. If they got it wrong, I can't imagine that they will be around for long.

Of course, winning will cure all ills, but it is June and we can't focus on anything else right now, so this is all we have to talk about.

badboy
06-19-2007, 03:49 PM
Some would argue that for a team that has never, NEVER had that coveted left tackle, that selecting a guy who seems tailor-made for ZBS would be a huge boon. It would have given any Texans QB adequate protection, and far better than the protection of Salaam/Black.



My point exactly. The Texans are being set up not for this year, but for the years after it. This was not an instant-fix offseason, so I don't predict the Texans will do much better than they did last year. 5-11.
I would not trade 3 to 4 picks (needed to get Thomas) for that player. That type trade is for a more "can't miss" college player & I'm not sure there were any of that type (even Calvin Johnson who was supposed to be fantastic)in this most recent draft. Yes, we need a LT, but not at that cost unless it was a very solid veteran in a trade. We filled holes at DT & WR (Jacoby @ slot) and still have our #1 next season (which could be a LT the same caliber as Thomas). As I think the trade you wanted would have taken our second round also in 08, that would have stopped the Schaub deal, that no matter what fans thought, McNair, Kubes and Smith ok'd.

Texans Horror
06-19-2007, 04:17 PM
Which utterly ignores that the top two prospects were off the board when the Texans picked. You can't complain on one hand that giving away picks is long term rather than short term and then espouse something which would have required giving away picks as a short term solution.

There are a lot of directions the Texans could have taken. Assume they trade down and pick up Staley. They could probably have gotten an extra first-day pick, and used that on a wide receiver. Course, since they aren't getting their tackle in FA, they could have used money spent on Black on someone else. Sure, the Texans picking up Thomas was a long shot and a bad example, but there are options out there that would have been short-term rather than long-term. I still think the Texans really screwed the pooch by losing the chance to take Kalil. He would have fortified the center, which has been the other long-standing o-line problem.

Hellooooo--they were 6-10 last year. Every team, every year builds with an eye on both the long and short term--it isn't an either/or. Guaranteed Kubiak and Smith aren't looking 3 years down the road for a winning season.

Just responding to the post, Infantry. Of course it's not black and white. (I won't reproduce my disquisition on the benefits of acquiring a running back and a defensive tackle THIS YEAR as opposed to any other.) But to ignore the offensive line problems in the first and second round is saying that they are willing to wait and let players develop. Taking a new QB is admitting he will need time to develop. Not replacing Moulds with a solid, veteran receiver (and leaving veritable rookies to fight it out) is giving them time to develop. Giving the players time to develop equates to not putting an emphasis on an instant impact, win this year mentality. The goal is to take valuable players and allow them to develop.

And I think there will be a huge difference between this season and next season when they have a chance to bring in some more draft picks, when Winston will have started to develop, when the Texans can make one or two big offseason acquisitions, and when both sides of the line have had several years of cohesion and experience together.

Kubiak has already been quoted as saying it will depend on a lot of players stepping up if they were to make a play-off run. I think he is being realistic about expectations, and I think more fans should, too. The Texans are a development team. The emphasis is not to win this year (i.e., make a big play-off run), but next year.

Texans Horror
06-19-2007, 04:23 PM
I would not trade 3 to 4 picks (needed to get Thomas) for that player. That type trade is for a more "can't miss" college player & I'm not sure there were any of that type (even Calvin Johnson who was supposed to be fantastic)in this most recent draft. Yes, we need a LT, but not at that cost unless it was a very solid veteran in a trade. We filled holes at DT & WR (Jacoby @ slot) and still have our #1 next season (which could be a LT the same caliber as Thomas). As I think the trade you wanted would have taken our second round also in 08, that would have stopped the Schaub deal, that no matter what fans thought, McNair, Kubes and Smith ok'd.

Boy, am I regretting typing "Joe Thomas." I meant to use it as an example only of the options available. There are many options that would have been been less developmental than the route the Texans have chosen.

The most glaring need on the Texans is a left tackle. They have not done anything that would fix the problem this year.

infantrycak
06-19-2007, 06:45 PM
I still think the Texans really screwed the pooch by losing the chance to take Kalil. He would have fortified the center, which has been the other long-standing o-line problem.

You can't know whether they screwed the pooch unless you know what, if anything, they were offered. It isn't as simple as saying "they should have traded down."

But to ignore the offensive line problems in the first and second round is saying that they are willing to wait and let players develop.

They didn't at all ignore the OL unless the definition is do exactly what you wanted.

Taking a new QB is admitting he will need time to develop.

Not even close. They clearly think Schaub as a three year spot player in the league and system is far ahead of a rookie like Brady Quinn. Total reach to try to use Schaub for this argument especially when even average QB play is a giant step forward for the team.

Not replacing Moulds with a solid, veteran receiver (and leaving veritable rookies to fight it out) is giving them time to develop.

That assumes something which the coaches clearly disagree with--that losing Moulds is a loss. The Texans paid to get rid of Moulds so that argument just doesn't hold water. In addition, once again you are acting as if players who have been in the league for a while are rookies. Walter is not a rookie and Kubiak clearly feels he doesn't need time to develop, but that he has had his time to develop and is ready to start.

Giving the players time to develop equates to not putting an emphasis on an instant impact, win this year mentality.

Every single team has developmental players. Ask Marlin Jackson about his super bowl ring.

And I think there will be a huge difference between this season and next season when they have a chance to bring in some more draft picks, when Winston will have started to develop, when the Texans can make one or two big offseason acquisitions, and when both sides of the line have had several years of cohesion and experience together.

May very well be true but does nothing to prove they aren't trying to improve this season.

The Texans are a development team. The emphasis is not to win this year (i.e., make a big play-off run), but next year.

Really should have skipped everything else because this gets to the heart of it.

Every single team is a developmental team. San Diego went 14-2 and got a new head coach. Indy lost half its starting D. Every team is developing. That has no logical connection to your second assertion that the emphasis is not on this year. It would be incredibly easy to construct an argument that if they weren't worried about the short term they would have kept Carr and drafted Quinn, kept Moulds and drafted Dwayne Jarrett, etc.

maddogmrb
06-19-2007, 07:28 PM
Thanks for all the responses. Lets agree to disagree on the response above. In my mind, I think the Texans organization has made mistakes both on AND off the field to create fan frustration and concern. No, these moves may not immediately result into winning, but it was an aggressive move in that direction. Based on the short history of this organization, I think that the front office HAS to continue to (i) make these types of moves and (more importantly) (ii) get it right more often than not to gain (or regain) the confidence in its fan base.

Unfortunately, it isn't just about winning any more. I think most of us realize that it will probably take one more year to start seenig the results on the field that we want. Above and beyond winning, I think the front office and coaching staffing have to demonstrate that they can make the right decisions to get this thing turned around. In my mind, this season HAS to be as much about winning on the field as it is about regaining the trust and devotion of the fans.

I won't disagree with your point of view, but I definitely give these guys the props for making the move. They could have taken a more conservative approach to "buy" them some extra time to turn things around and they had the guts to go for a quicker fix. As a fan, I appreciate it...and I hope that they got it right. If they got it wrong, I can't imagine that they will be around for long.

Of course, winning will cure all ills, but it is June and we can't focus on anything else right now, so this is all we have to talk about.


I dunno Spike ........ IMO the ONLY agressive move they made was the Brett Schaub trade, which most outside our org consider to be a reach. Of course, we all hope he becomes all-pro this year but, so far he has done nothing to show he will be. I like his leadership so far, let's see him do it on the field. He HAS to be the face of the org.

As far as your statement that they "could have taken a more conservative approach" ........... I mean most of what they did this off season was sign mediocre cast off FA's from other teams. You can't get more conservative than that! Those moves should be every day normal stuff at the office. They certainly were not exceptional by any stretch.

All that aside, I believe the team will be better than last year and let's get to kick off!

Texans Horror
06-20-2007, 12:25 AM
You can't know whether they screwed the pooch unless you know what, if anything, they were offered. It isn't as simple as saying "they should have traded down."

I'm not trying to make it as simple as "they should have traded down." I'm saying there are many options, some of which would have been a quicker road to wins this year. Note I'm not saying their moves won't be of better value in the long haul. I'm limiting the discussion to short-term effects - i.e., winning next year.

They didn't at all ignore the OL unless the definition is do exactly what you wanted.

Taking a left tackle and a guard in the late fifth and sixth round is hardly an attempt at making an impact this year. Frye and Studdard are clearly developmental players. So to say they addressed the OL, much less made leaps and bounds on the line, is scant praise.

Not even close. They clearly think Schaub as a three year spot player in the league and system is far ahead of a rookie like Brady Quinn. Total reach to try to use Schaub for this argument especially when even average QB play is a giant step forward for the team.

Comparing taking Schaub to taking Brady Quinn? Sure he's better. Why are you bringing this up? If it's to illustrate that taking a veteran with a few games experience is a much better idea than bringing in a rookie, I can't really follow you there. I wasn't big on Quinn, but it's still probably about the same.

Plus, I don't think it's such a reach to assume that a new quarterback will need time to learn the system and get used to routes, etc. Most every quarterback goes through this transition phase. Some quarterbacks are benched for years so that they can learn the system. Even Vince Young sat for a few games last year. So to think that it will take Matt some time to grow is a pretty realistic argument. If the argument is that Matt will be the perfect quarterback from Game 1 and won't make any mistakes because he's played in three games, I think that's the less realistic argument.

That assumes something which the coaches clearly disagree with--that losing Moulds is a loss. The Texans paid to get rid of Moulds so that argument just doesn't hold water. In addition, once again you are acting as if players who have been in the league for a while are rookies. Walter is not a rookie and Kubiak clearly feels he doesn't need time to develop, but that he has had his time to develop and is ready to start.

The only thing clear about Moulds leaving is that he is gone. I have not seen or heard any evidence as to why exactly he left. I have only heard speculation, and I have tried to stay away from it.

However, having Moulds lining up with AJ got him open, pushed up AJ's numbers, and helped put him in the Pro-Bowl. It had less to do with ability and more to do with reputation/presence. Unlike 2005 when teams could simply double and triple-team AJ, defenses had to consider Moulds last season. To think that lining up Walter and Mathis or Jones will make defenses reconsider whether they should double-team AJ is not very credible. These players have to prove their worth in the NFL before they will be respected as a player of the credentials of AJ or Moulds. And right now the Texans have no answer for the number 2 receiver. All they have are a perennial benchwarmer in Walter, Mathis who you never know if he will show up or not, and Jones - a complete x-factor.

Every single team has developmental players. Ask Marlin Jackson about his super bowl ring.

Great point! Compare the instant impact of Joseph Addai to the development of Marlin Jackson. One was brought in as a starting running back and was the missing piece in the offense. The other was used in nickel situations and started in one game. My argument is that this offseason the Texans brought in more of the developmental-type players (Amobi, Jones, Harrison, Frye, Studdard) than they did instant impact guys (Green).



May very well be true but does nothing to prove they aren't trying to improve this season.

I hope they improve, too. I'm not saying the Texans aren't trying to improve. I certainly don't think Kubes and Rick went into the offseason thinking "how the hell can we screw up the team this year?" But I think they are being very careful with their selections, and they know that a dynasty is not made on getting all the instant-impact players they can. Like the Spurs, like the Patriots, these guys know it is more about selecting the right players and letting the team grow rather than try to bring in every big name in the league, which would have a quicker pay-off, but would not last long.


Really should have skipped everything else because this gets to the heart of it.

Every single team is a developmental team. San Diego went 14-2 and got a new head coach. Indy lost half its starting D. Every team is developing. That has no logical connection to your second assertion that the emphasis is not on this year. It would be incredibly easy to construct an argument that if they weren't worried about the short term they would have kept Carr and drafted Quinn, kept Moulds and drafted Dwayne Jarrett, etc.

Yes, every team is in development. But to equate the rebuilding of the Texans with the development of the Colts, Pats, and Chargers is not being fair to those other teams, which have spent many years developing a team. They have developed their teams so well that they have second round guys backing up their players. They have a team so complete that all it needs is a coach whose name is not Schottenheimer. They have one of the most impressive systems - one that jas created a veritable dynasty; they were able to take Jabar Gaffney and make him one of their go-to guys. Hell, at least these other teams you mentioned have their systems. Kubiak and Sherman are still trying to figure out how the offense will look, not to mention who will play on it. The team is in development. The goal is to build something that will last for years, not a team that will shoot up like a Dom Capers-helmed Carolina Panthers rocket, then sputter out.

Texanmike02
06-20-2007, 08:17 PM
Comparing taking Schaub to taking Brady Quinn? Sure he's better. Why are you bringing this up? If it's to illustrate that taking a veteran with a few games experience is a much better idea than bringing in a rookie, I can't really follow you there. I wasn't big on Quinn, but it's still probably about the same.

Plus, I don't think it's such a reach to assume that a new quarterback will need time to learn the system and get used to routes, etc. Most every quarterback goes through this transition phase. Some quarterbacks are benched for years so that they can learn the system. Even Vince Young sat for a few games last year. So to think that it will take Matt some time to grow is a pretty realistic argument. If the argument is that Matt will be the perfect quarterback from Game 1 and won't make any mistakes because he's played in three games, I think that's the less realistic argument.

Its pretty well documented that Schaub has played a similar style of offense dating back to his H.S. days:
http://vikings.scout.com/2/516573.html
http://www.kffl.com/article.php/65180/74

http://www.petewilliams.net/DraftExcerpt.htm
Matt Schaub, selected in the third-round of the 2004 draft, had quickly grasped the West Coast offense, having played it at the University of Virginia, and the Falcons were confident he could fill in capably if Vick were injured.


Ok I can't find where it said he played in the system in college... I'll keep digging if need be. Personally, if you threw Schaub in the draft... I think he definitely would have gone ahead of Quinn. Teams have had a chance to evaluate him in the pre season (which is better than anybody that Quinn has faced to dade) as well as a few game films. And teams were high on him. Very high on him. Not only that, but what do you think the price of schaub would be now? I'm guessing alot more than a move up 2 picks in the draft coupled with 2 2nd rounders.

Vince isn't a QB yet... he's a rb that can throw the ball.






Yes, every team is in development. But to equate the rebuilding of the Texans with the development of the Colts, Pats, and Chargers is not being fair to those other teams, which have spent many years developing a team. They have developed their teams so well that they have second round guys backing up their players. They have a team so complete that all it needs is a coach whose name is not Schottenheimer. They have one of the most impressive systems - one that jas created a veritable dynasty; they were able to take Jabar Gaffney and make him one of their go-to guys. Hell, at least these other teams you mentioned have their systems. Kubiak and Sherman are still trying to figure out how the offense will look, not to mention who will play on it. The team is in development. The goal is to build something that will last for years, not a team that will shoot up like a Dom Capers-helmed Carolina Panthers rocket, then sputter out.

I would compare their development to that of the 49'rs but that's just me.

Mike

Runner
06-20-2007, 09:07 PM
You can't know whether they screwed the pooch unless you know what, if anything, they were offered. It isn't as simple as saying "they should have traded down."

I'm not trying to make it as simple as "they should have traded down." I'm saying there are many options, some of which would have been a quicker road to wins this year. Note I'm not saying their moves won't be of better value in the long haul. I'm limiting the discussion to short-term effects - i.e., winning next year.

They didn't at all ignore the OL unless the definition is do exactly what you wanted.

Taking a left tackle and a guard in the late fifth and sixth round is hardly an attempt at making an impact this year. Frye and Studdard are clearly developmental players. So to say they addressed the OL, much less made leaps and bounds on the line, is scant praise.

Not even close. They clearly think Schaub as a three year spot player in the league and system is far ahead of a rookie like Brady Quinn. Total reach to try to use Schaub for this argument especially when even average QB play is a giant step forward for the team.

Comparing taking Schaub to taking Brady Quinn? Sure he's better. Why are you bringing this up? If it's to illustrate that taking a veteran with a few games experience is a much better idea than bringing in a rookie, I can't really follow you there. I wasn't big on Quinn, but it's still probably about the same.

Plus, I don't think it's such a reach to assume that a new quarterback will need time to learn the system and get used to routes, etc. Most every quarterback goes through this transition phase. Some quarterbacks are benched for years so that they can learn the system. Even Vince Young sat for a few games last year. So to think that it will take Matt some time to grow is a pretty realistic argument. If the argument is that Matt will be the perfect quarterback from Game 1 and won't make any mistakes because he's played in three games, I think that's the less realistic argument.

That assumes something which the coaches clearly disagree with--that losing Moulds is a loss. The Texans paid to get rid of Moulds so that argument just doesn't hold water. In addition, once again you are acting as if players who have been in the league for a while are rookies. Walter is not a rookie and Kubiak clearly feels he doesn't need time to develop, but that he has had his time to develop and is ready to start.

The only thing clear about Moulds leaving is that he is gone. I have not seen or heard any evidence as to why exactly he left. I have only heard speculation, and I have tried to stay away from it.

However, having Moulds lining up with AJ got him open, pushed up AJ's numbers, and helped put him in the Pro-Bowl. It had less to do with ability and more to do with reputation/presence. Unlike 2005 when teams could simply double and triple-team AJ, defenses had to consider Moulds last season. To think that lining up Walter and Mathis or Jones will make defenses reconsider whether they should double-team AJ is not very credible. These players have to prove their worth in the NFL before they will be respected as a player of the credentials of AJ or Moulds. And right now the Texans have no answer for the number 2 receiver. All they have are a perennial benchwarmer in Walter, Mathis who you never know if he will show up or not, and Jones - a complete x-factor.

Every single team has developmental players. Ask Marlin Jackson about his super bowl ring.

Great point! Compare the instant impact of Joseph Addai to the development of Marlin Jackson. One was brought in as a starting running back and was the missing piece in the offense. The other was used in nickel situations and started in one game. My argument is that this offseason the Texans brought in more of the developmental-type players (Amobi, Jones, Harrison, Frye, Studdard) than they did instant impact guys (Green).



May very well be true but does nothing to prove they aren't trying to improve this season.

I hope they improve, too. I'm not saying the Texans aren't trying to improve. I certainly don't think Kubes and Rick went into the offseason thinking "how the hell can we screw up the team this year?" But I think they are being very careful with their selections, and they know that a dynasty is not made on getting all the instant-impact players they can. Like the Spurs, like the Patriots, these guys know it is more about selecting the right players and letting the team grow rather than try to bring in every big name in the league, which would have a quicker pay-off, but would not last long.


Really should have skipped everything else because this gets to the heart of it.

Every single team is a developmental team. San Diego went 14-2 and got a new head coach. Indy lost half its starting D. Every team is developing. That has no logical connection to your second assertion that the emphasis is not on this year. It would be incredibly easy to construct an argument that if they weren't worried about the short term they would have kept Carr and drafted Quinn, kept Moulds and drafted Dwayne Jarrett, etc.

Yes, every team is in development. But to equate the rebuilding of the Texans with the development of the Colts, Pats, and Chargers is not being fair to those other teams, which have spent many years developing a team. They have developed their teams so well that they have second round guys backing up their players. They have a team so complete that all it needs is a coach whose name is not Schottenheimer. They have one of the most impressive systems - one that jas created a veritable dynasty; they were able to take Jabar Gaffney and make him one of their go-to guys. Hell, at least these other teams you mentioned have their systems. Kubiak and Sherman are still trying to figure out how the offense will look, not to mention who will play on it. The team is in development. The goal is to build something that will last for years, not a team that will shoot up like a Dom Capers-helmed Carolina Panthers rocket, then sputter out.


Well. We have quite the agon here.

Kaiser Toro
06-20-2007, 09:33 PM
Well. We have quite the agon here.

Standing on its own, agon is only worth five points in Scrabble.

Runner
06-20-2007, 09:38 PM
Standing on its own, agon is only worth five points in Scrabble.

Scrabble is just a game.

Kaiser Toro
06-20-2007, 09:42 PM
Scrabble is just a game.

You play to win the game and agon is a sorry word, pun intended.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/edwards_herman0108.jpg

HJam72
06-20-2007, 09:59 PM
I think an obvious example of building for the future is the Texans taking Okoye this year, and why so many believe in taking the BPA most of the time, regardless of need. You might know that I wanted Nelson at FS or Revis at CB, but that is because I am sick of losing and want to win now. I know that Okoye has even more potential than them, and may even be better right away, but I wanted those needs filled. I have to admit that Okoye is probably the better choice, although I didn't like it. They are doing what wins Superbowls, and not what gets you into that first embarrassing play-off loss sooner. We can get secondary help, and O-line, when it is BPA; or, trade for it or pick up free agents when the time comes. Even I'll be glad we got Okoye when we have some extra stud rookies in the secondary and our D-line is cracking heads in the play-offs. :d:

Runner
06-20-2007, 10:09 PM
Scrabble is just a game.

You play to win the game and agon is a sorry word, pun intended.



Make that "Scrabble is just a game that I'm not playing right now".

Texans Horror
06-21-2007, 12:12 AM
Its pretty well documented that Schaub has played a similar style of offense dating back to his H.S. days:
http://vikings.scout.com/2/516573.html
http://www.kffl.com/article.php/65180/74

http://www.petewilliams.net/DraftExcerpt.htm
Matt Schaub, selected in the third-round of the 2004 draft, had quickly grasped the West Coast offense, having played it at the University of Virginia, and the Falcons were confident he could fill in capably if Vick were injured.


It'll still take time for him to become integrated. It always does. Most of the general information I've always heard is that for the more difficult positions, like linemen and quarterbacks, it takes three years for them to come to speed and hit their prime. And I recognize that Matt is probably more ready for helming a team because he has experience in the offensive schemes, but I still think there will be bumps, misfires and miscues, and the offense will go through some growing pains.

Personally, if you threw Schaub in the draft... I think he definitely would have gone ahead of Quinn. Teams have had a chance to evaluate him in the pre season (which is better than anybody that Quinn has faced to dade) as well as a few game films. And teams were high on him. Very high on him. Not only that, but what do you think the price of schaub would be now? I'm guessing alot more than a move up 2 picks in the draft coupled with 2 2nd rounders.

Vince isn't a QB yet... he's a rb that can throw the ball.

What gives with all the contrasting of Matt and Brady? Is it because of that time the Texans scouted him out? I never thought Quinn was really on the Texans radar. I always figured it was Plummer if not Carr.

Not sure what Schaub would be worth if he were put in last year's draft. I think that's a different thread. I saw it once. Every player in the NFL is put in the draft, and the question was who would the Texans take? A real Tuscan T-Bone of a quandary, if you ask me.