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View Full Version : Left tackles and CBs


badboy
06-12-2007, 11:14 AM
Everyone knows our attempts at resolving these two positions. Are great left tackles and "shutdown" corners a dying breed? The Texans efforts to fill these positions are well chronicled with more misses than hits at getting even adequate players. Yeah, I'm hopeful on Charles Spencer too; but do we have more than even odds he will play this season, let alone become a solid starter? Shifts in defense and offensive blocking schemes have been created to hide weaknesses; but an 'uh oh' by either can cost you points or worse your starting QB.

Corrosion
06-12-2007, 11:52 AM
Most of the Texans problems at CB can be attributed to their non existant pass rush . Show me a D-line that cant get to a QB and Ill show ya a CB who cant cover ....
As for the talent on the Texans roster at that position , I think Faggins is gonna make some people eat crow this season . every offseason the team brings in a another crop of players that are trying to take his job .... Fred Bennett , the 4th rounder out of South Carolina may eventually take that job away but It will probably be 08 or 09 .


The O-line gets a pass for the time being , so many of their problems in the past were caused by the guy they were protecting . I HOPE (and I think the Texans management feels the same way) that the O-line plays considerably better with a new signal caller and a guy who can read defenses and get rid of the ball quickly (Without running out of bounds behind the LOS).

Ephraim Salaam may not be a franchise LT but you dont stay in the NFL for 10 seasons by being a slouch .

As for Charles Spencer , I think the guy has the potential to be a starter on the left side for a long time ..... But at this time I think its too early to tell if he will play this season . He may feel like he's ready but the doctors and coaches will make that decision . My expectation is that he will start the season on the pup list and join the active roster later in the year .

threetoedpete
06-12-2007, 12:19 PM
Everyone knows our attempts at resolving these two positions. Are great left tackles and "shutdown" corners a dying breed? The Texans efforts to fill these positions are well chronicled with more misses than hits at getting even adequate players. Yeah, I'm hopeful on Charles Spencer too; but do we have more than even odds he will play this season, let alone become a solid starter? Shifts in defense and offensive blocking schemes have been created to hide weaknesses; but an 'uh oh' by either can cost you points or worse your starting QB.

OLT my favorite subject. I think we saw two high end guys go high the last two drafts. D'Brickashaw Furgeson and Thomas should be in the elite range very quickly. Ulataoski at Texas should be in that range if he has lost the Austin burrito fat this summer. So no, I think the great left tackles are out there still.
Ogden and Pace are finishing up. These two should catch the baton.

Cover corners, the last shut down corner under the moderen rules that I know of is Deion Sanders. Antonio Cormartie of San Deigo has a shot. But it appears those guys are much harder to find than the OLTs. Probably why they get pushed up the draft board every year in the draft. You hit one they are gold.

If they let Spencer practice....won't take long to know where he is at. If he's on the feild and praticing, then he's ok. If he's got no cartlidge, he's got no cartlidge. Pretty simple. the next thing with or with out Spencer is thier splits.
If they have narrow splits, we're in trouble. If they are taking generous splits, we should have a good season. If they can execute from the genrous splits means they have faith in the starting five. We'll see.

TK_Gamer
06-12-2007, 12:27 PM
Most of the Texans problems at CB can be attributed to their non existant pass rush . Show me a D-line that cant get to a QB and Ill show ya a CB who cant cover ....
As for the talent on the Texans roster at that position , I think Faggins is gonna make some people eat crow this season . every offseason the team brings in a another crop of players that are trying to take his job .... Fred Bennett , the 4th rounder out of South Carolina may eventually take that job away but It will probably be 08 or 09 .


The O-line gets a pass for the time being , so many of their problems in the past were caused by the guy they were protecting . I HOPE (and I think the Texans management feels the same way) that the O-line plays considerably better with a new signal caller and a guy who can read defenses and get rid of the ball quickly (Without running out of bounds behind the LOS).

Ephraim Salaam may not be a franchise LT but you dont stay in the NFL for 10 seasons by being a slouch .

As for Charles Spencer , I think the guy has the potential to be a starter on the left side for a long time ..... But at this time I think its too early to tell if he will play this season . He may feel like he's ready but the doctors and coaches will make that decision . My expectation is that he will start the season on the pup list and join the active roster later in the year .

I hope the added pass rush will negate the weaknesses in the secondary, but IMHO D-rob is not a shut-down corner and Petey is to slow. Throw in no true FS and that's where we are.

I think the O-line will be at least adequate this year and I agree with Spencer and the pup list. we will continue to improve. I hope one of the guys we picked up can play center though as I think Flanigan is one injury away from the IR. If mckinney can play at the top of his form we will still need a solid guy to spell him.

I think we will really need the defense to be top 10 producers this year and we need opposing QB's to be hurried and offbalance so as to protect our weak secondary underbelly. I think we will.

Overall I'm optimistic. GO TEXANS!

beerlover
06-12-2007, 12:41 PM
OLT my favorite subject. I think we saw two high end guys go high the last two drafts. D'Brickashaw Furgeson and Thomas should be in the elite range very quickly. Ulataoski at Texas should be in that range if he has lost the Austin burrito fat this summer. So no, I think the great left tackles are out there still.
Ogden and Pace are finishing up. These two should catch the baton.

Cover corners, the last shut down corner under the moderen rules that I know of is Deion Sanders. Antonio Cormartie of San Deigo has a shot. But it appears those guys are much harder to find than the OLTs. Probably why they get pushed up the draft board every year in the draft. You hit one they are gold.

If they let Spencer practice....won't take long to know where he is at. If he's on the feild and praticing, then he's ok. If he's got no cartlidge, he's got no cartlidge. Pretty simple. the next thing with or with out Spencer is thier splits.
If they have narrow splits, we're in trouble. If they are taking generous splits, we should have a good season. If they can execute from the genrous splits means they have faith in the starting five. We'll see.

threetoedpete good to read your opinions once again :cowboy1:

anyways since we both love the intrique of the OT position I have to chime in my :twocents:

LT or RT franchise players are out there you just have to be able to identify & then develop them, simple yet harder than it sounds. case in point Levi Brown will be an all-pro RT cause he has LT talent but will play his natural position RT because Matt Leinhart is a lefty, this is a central part of the equation the relationship between the QB & his tackle. the Texans have been unable to fix it because of David Carrs status (now gone) Charles Spencers injury (recovery remains to be seen) & the new QB Matt Schaub. I think we'll all have a much better understanding of the situation after the season unfolds & we see what Matt likes & needs from his linemen.

CB's are a whole different story. because of rule modifications, & complex zone schemes. I would say the shutdown corners have become more of your playmakers from the free safety positiion, hence you've seen alot more high draft picks being taken in the top 10 as free safetys as oppossed to cbs.

I'm going on the record right here right now that Dunta Robinsion should be given a look @ the FS position. he is a playmaker, has experience, reads the field, is excellent in both run spport and blitz packages. so what I'm saying is you don't see alot of shutdown corners anymore because defensive coordinators are finding better ways to integrate them into the defense to take advantage of their playmaking skills rather than leaving them isolated in man to man coverage on an island.

nunusguy
06-12-2007, 12:47 PM
OLT my favorite subject. I think we saw two high end guys go high the last two drafts. D'Brickashaw Furgeson and Thomas should be in the elite range very quickly.

Dang, I could have sworn Marcus McNeil was last years rookie OLT to get the PB nod, and not D'Brick ? And I dunno, but has Thomas even played in the NFL yet ?

badboy
06-12-2007, 01:38 PM
Ok, but why are there are so few left tackles coming into pros? WRs? QBs? RBs? LBs? Tons are coming out and making very good players. But so few LTs. Like others have posted 1-2 a year get most of the hype and an occasional Spencer will appear. Most of the really good OTs coming out of college are re-slotted at right tackle and end up staying there like I think Winston will. I think the trend to moving free safeties over to make plays is simple. No CB that can handle a WR for 6 seconds.

Specnatz
06-12-2007, 01:52 PM
Ok, but why are there are so few left tackles coming into pros? WRs? QBs? RBs? LBs? Tons are coming out and making very good players. But so few LTs. Like others have posted 1-2 a year get most of the hype and an occasional Spencer will appear. Most of the really good OTs coming out of college are re-slotted at right tackle and end up staying there like I think Winston will. I think the trend to moving free safeties over to make plays is simple. No CB that can handle a WR for 6 seconds.

I would add the word hyped in there somewhere. Does not mean they are not there or that they can turn into good to very LT, but you are talking about elite. How many elite RBs came out this past year. What about QB?

drewmar74
06-12-2007, 02:25 PM
CB's are a whole different story. because of rule modifications, & complex zone schemes. I would say the shutdown corners have become more of your playmakers from the free safety positiion, hence you've seen alot more high draft picks being taken in the top 10 as free safetys as oppossed to cbs.


I can't possibly agree with this more. I think that there are still guys out there who can lock half of the field down. Champ Bailey, Shawn Springs, and DeAngelo Hall come immediately to mind. I don't necessarily think that its fair to compare most CB's to Deion simply because he was an exceedingly rare talent (even if he is as aggravating as sand in your bathing suit).

With that said, I think that the Beerlover's statement that "defensive coordinators are finding better ways to integrate them into the defense to take advantage of their playmaking skills rather than leaving them isolated in man to man coverage on an island" is very true. In a lot of systems you simply do not have to be "shutdown" good to have a solid career as a CB.

LT's... well, I think that over the past 20 years you've seen pass rushers get bigger, stronger, and faster. Men who are smart enough, fast enough, strong enough, and nimble enough to keep up seem to be getting harder to come by. Now, there are some great LT's out there now and there are some LT's out there who seem to be ready, to borrow threetoedpete's terminology, to accept the baton.

I guess what I'm driving at is this - the perceived lack of stud LT's is less a result of lack of talent or less talent available than it is a reflection of how much more difficult it is to defend against a pissed-off Julius Peppers.

Make sense?

ArlingtonTexan
06-12-2007, 02:51 PM
Ok, but why are there are so few left tackles coming into pros? WRs? QBs? RBs? LBs? Tons are coming out and making very good players. But so few LTs. Like others have posted 1-2 a year get most of the hype and an occasional Spencer will appear. Most of the really good OTs coming out of college are re-slotted at right tackle and end up staying there like I think Winston will. I think the trend to moving free safeties over to make plays is simple. No CB that can handle a WR for 6 seconds.

It is a numbers game to a large extent. There are not that many 6'5" + 300lb + with quick feet, good strength, football intelligence, health and the mindset to succeed. I think we looked this up a year or two ago and half of the starting OLT were first round pick, and all but a handful first day picks.

real
06-12-2007, 02:54 PM
If they have narrow splits, we're in trouble. If they are taking generous splits, we should have a good season. If they can execute from the genrous splits means they have faith in the starting five. We'll see.

Splits really have more to do with how the play is designed.

Texans Horror
06-13-2007, 11:26 PM
McNeil is an interesting player to bring up. First year rookie and elected to the Pro Bowl. I would have voted for him as OROY instead of VY, but Vince did some damn good things, too.

It shows, though, how important it is to not get worried by draft numbers too much. The LT doesn't have to go in the first round to be worth anything. McNeil went #50 - about half-way through the second round, before being picked up.

On the other hand, it also illustrates how I think the Texans went wrong by losing their second round picks. Second round is an underrated round. A lot of great players come from this round, and McNeil is another example (with Demeco) of second-rd players who really tore it up on the field.

badboy
06-14-2007, 11:02 AM
I can't possibly agree with this more. I think that there are still guys out there who can lock half of the field down. Champ Bailey, Shawn Springs, and DeAngelo Hall come immediately to mind. I don't necessarily think that its fair to compare most CB's to Deion simply because he was an exceedingly rare talent (even if he is as aggravating as sand in your bathing suit).

With that said, I think that the Beerlover's statement that "defensive coordinators are finding better ways to integrate them into the defense to take advantage of their playmaking skills rather than leaving them isolated in man to man coverage on an island" is very true. In a lot of systems you simply do not have to be "shutdown" good to have a solid career as a CB.

LT's... well, I think that over the past 20 years you've seen pass rushers get bigger, stronger, and faster. Men who are smart enough, fast enough, strong enough, and nimble enough to keep up seem to be getting harder to come by. Now, there are some great LT's out there now and there are some LT's out there who seem to be ready, to borrow threetoedpete's terminology, to accept the baton.

I guess what I'm driving at is this - the perceived lack of stud LT's is less a result of lack of talent or less talent available than it is a reflection of how much more difficult it is to defend against a pissed-off Julius Peppers.

Make sense?

Yes, it makes sense. LT are as good as always, the competition has just gotten better.

badboy
06-14-2007, 11:05 AM
It is a numbers game to a large extent. There are not that many 6'5" + 300lb + with quick feet, good strength, football intelligence, health and the mindset to succeed. I think we looked this up a year or two ago and half of the starting OLT were first round pick, and all but a handful first day picks.
I think you have it right here. The Olineman has changed physically. Washington had the hogs but they were slow. OL now are very big and very fast. The ante to be successfull may have increased at this position more so than any other over last few years.

badboy
06-14-2007, 11:09 AM
McNeil is an interesting player to bring up. First year rookie and elected to the Pro Bowl. I would have voted for him as OROY instead of VY, but Vince did some damn good things, too.

It shows, though, how important it is to not get worried by draft numbers too much. The LT doesn't have to go in the first round to be worth anything. McNeil went #50 - about half-way through the second round, before being picked up.

On the other hand, it also illustrates how I think the Texans went wrong by losing their second round picks. Second round is an underrated round. A lot of great players come from this round, and McNeil is another example (with Demeco) of second-rd players who really tore it up on the field.Under most scenarios, I'd agree. The Texans decided to go another way at QB and there was not another option they preferred. We can debate (as several have) whether Matt was the correct choice. If he develops into even a "above average" QB, he will be worth the picks.

Porky
06-14-2007, 02:07 PM
On the other hand, it also illustrates how I think the Texans went wrong by losing their second round picks. Second round is an underrated round. A lot of great players come from this round, and McNeil is another example (with Demeco) of second-rd players who really tore it up on the field.

We agree,

Signed Tony Hollings, Jabar Gaffney and Bennie Joppru. :texflag:

badboy
06-14-2007, 02:13 PM
We agree,

Signed Tony Hollings, Jabar Gaffney and Bennie Joppru. :texflag:

Now, now. You know that was not Ricky Smith. So far we are one great 2nd and maybe a pretty good QB.