PDA

View Full Version : Babin is a Master


georgewashington
10-31-2004, 05:00 PM
Im tired of all this Babin is improving talk. Did anyone watch him today, his pass rush is terrible. He got pressure twice, once Byron completed a 20 yard pass still, and the other time he wiffed and missed a sack. And if you watch the tackle even cheated by letting him get a step high because everytime he rolled back to the inside. And half of the spins he stopped halfway around and just stood there with his back to the ball. He made one good open field tackle, but most of the time he is just standing around. You cant really be improving much when you dont do anything. He is very over rated.

RunninRaven
10-31-2004, 05:02 PM
The Texans won.

texan279
10-31-2004, 05:11 PM
Im tired of all this Babin is improving talk. Did anyone watch him today, his pass rush is terrible. He got pressure twice, once Byron completed a 20 yard pass still, and the other time he wiffed and missed a sack. And if you watch the tackle even cheated by letting him get a step high because everytime he rolled back to the inside. And half of the spins he stopped halfway around and just stood there with his back to the ball. He made one good open field tackle, but most of the time he is just standing around. You cant really be improving much when you dont do anything. He is very over rated.

He's a rookie making a transition from DE to OLB, it will take time. Why are you always complaing about him anyway, you know Robinson has made some rookie mistakes also, but I am pleased with both of their play this season.

phan1
10-31-2004, 05:12 PM
The Texans won.

Not only that, but our defense played great today. We stopped the run game, and we did get pressure on Leftwich. We played as a cohesive unit today, and as a cohesive unit, Babin played great today. I don't think we can complain about his performance. Did he miss any big plays today? No. Did he do what was asked of him? Yes. Also, every time we blitzed today, we got great pressure on the QB. We did not get beat on a blitz at all today. You can't expect Babin to get sacks with a 4-man rush. We even put a good amount of pressure with our 3-man rushes. This has absolutely been our best defensive effort all year.

Vinny
10-31-2004, 05:19 PM
We used to have Gaffney trolls when Gaff was developing too. It took a year and a half for Gaff to get his game up to the NFL level. We give up ZERO TD's and Babin is the bad guy once again for good ol George here. You are certainly our number one Babin troll though. I got to hand it to you.

Give the guy time to develop. Sheesh.

georgewashington
10-31-2004, 05:51 PM
Its not the development Im talking about, I realize that and dont disagree. I may be a troll but its because of the multiple times he gives up during plays. You cant give up after trying one move on a pass rush. Watch the game and you will see that if the move doesnt work he stands up and does try a second move. That has nothing to do with changing positions or being a rookie. And how about the genius comment by the other guy "you cant expect him to get a sack on a four man rush", are you kidding me, you are telling me that DE and DT, and in our case OLB arent supposed to get sacks with out a blitz? If you are getting one on one blocking, you should be expected to beat that man at some points in the game.

Vinny
10-31-2004, 05:59 PM
Last time I checked the Jags didn't run the ball too well at Babin and that is a big part of playing defense. Babin is going to be fine. We had an outstanding day defensively.

Every week you come in here and bash him like he ran off with your wife. Give it a rest whydontcha.

georgewashington
10-31-2004, 06:05 PM
didnt run too well at him? they only ran 10 times. I bash him because there is no excuse for giving up on a pash rush. and if you watched he really didnt collapse the pocket that well, and yes i do say this every week because it happens every week. call me a babin hater or whatever else but as long as i see him giving up on plays before they are over there is not going to be any respect from me, no excuse to stopping during a play with your back to the ball that many times.

utahmark
10-31-2004, 06:46 PM
i thought master was usually a good thing.

Vinny
10-31-2004, 06:51 PM
He is using sarcasm since he comes in every week and bashes Babin.

Lucky
10-31-2004, 06:52 PM
...call me a babin hater...
OK, you're a Babin hater. 26 of your 37 posts have bashed Babin. That says it all.

Marcus
10-31-2004, 06:53 PM
call me a babin hater or whatever else but as long as i see him giving up on plays before they are over there is not going to be any respect from me, no excuse to stopping during a play with your back to the ball that many times.

It just really amazes me sometimes how impatient you and others are with rookies.

When David Carr was a rookie, look at how disappointed all of you were with him. In his third season, are you disappointed with him now?

When Jabar Gaffney was a rookie, look at how disappointed all of you were with him. In his third season, are you disappointed with him now?

georgewashington, 3 years from now, I want you to tell me how disappointed you are with Jason Babin.

chuckm
10-31-2004, 06:54 PM
Sheesh I thought Babin played a good game ...... several pressures ..... I'm beginning to smell a rat in George's weekly Babin bashing ....

:twocents:

BuffSoldier
10-31-2004, 07:20 PM
Babin had 3 solo tackles and at least two QB pressures, I think that is pretty good for a rookie.

Rosusu
10-31-2004, 07:26 PM
Why everytime we win a game somebody has to ***** about something? Why look at the negatives! If babin wasnt doing good, we have a solid group of linebackers that could replace him. The coaches obviously see something in him. Please let everyone enjoy the win for at least 3 hours at least before you bring up what you didnt like about our awesome victory over the jags.

texasguy346
10-31-2004, 07:30 PM
I have a feeling that even if Babin was the illegitimate love child of LT/Ray Lewis/ Mike Singletary (take that image with you when you sleep tonight) that georgy would still bash Babin. Does he need to break the single season sack record for you to stop bashing him? Or would you find a way to bash him on the "way" he got sacks? This is becoming alot like the "Fire so and so" threads.

georgewashington
10-31-2004, 08:30 PM
Yes you are all correct, except that you did not respond to my main point. I said i dont like how he would give up so much on his rushes. and i agree he probably will be good in a few years, but that doesnt mean i have to like the lack of hustle i saw. he did have some good plays today, but thats no reason to stop in the middle of a spin move with your back to the QB who still has the ball.

Corrosion
10-31-2004, 09:54 PM
Last time I checked the Jags didn't run the ball too well at Babin and that is a big part of playing defense. Babin is going to be fine. We had an outstanding day defensively.

Every week you come in here and bash him like he ran off with your wife. Give it a rest whydontcha.




. 39 TOTAL RUSHING YARDS for the Jag's ..... Nuff said.

TexansTrueFan
10-31-2004, 09:59 PM
yeah i dont think you can call it a lack of effort when they only gained 39 rushing yards on us !!! and ya know some of the guys he's trying to spin off of our pretty big atleast he was attempting i've seen guys just stand their in a stale mate and try nothing !!! Be happy they didnt have a big day on us ,,,passing our rushing do our D and babin had to do something right !

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-31-2004, 10:05 PM
I thought Babin had a good game today.

TexanBacker93
10-31-2004, 10:30 PM
I think georgewashington is the troll that sits 3 rows behind me in the south endzone complaining about the play calling the entire game. He has obviously never played anything other than Madden football his entire life. Too bad Bud Adams didn't take these guys with him.

jnhcarrfans
10-31-2004, 10:40 PM
Babin will be fine. Man I remember all the Carr haters. You have to give people time to develop.




yeah what are all those carr haters saying now "oh he's a good young QB i always knew he'd do good. :cool:

georgewashington
10-31-2004, 10:43 PM
Babin is a young guy, but you should of watched the Raider game and the Titan game. J.Babin was intense on those games. You cant just judge him on one game. Go have a look and see.

Yes go back to those games, he had one tackle against Tennessee adn three in oakland. Not to stellar. I think you have all blown his impact out of proportion.

Vinny
10-31-2004, 10:46 PM
Wong had 34 tackles and 5.5 sacks on the strong side OLB his first year here starting all 16 games. That is the same side Babin is on. It takes time, and the OLB will not get the majority of the tackles in this defense, but you need to understand that to grasp that.

Errant Hothy
10-31-2004, 10:50 PM
We all know, atleast we should by now, that Mr. Washington is a Peek homer; and will only be happy when Peek starts in front of Babin. This is gettign rather old, tired and starting to wear realy thin.

Lucky
10-31-2004, 10:56 PM
I think you have all blown his impact out of proportion.
29 "Bash Babin" posts out of 39 total. I don't think you're the guy to hand out admonitions on proportionality.

We get it. You like Peek and wish he'd play over Babin. Can you wait until another game when the Texans don't allow a TD to bring this up again?

FirstTexansFan
10-31-2004, 11:10 PM
I keep an eye on Babin and Robertson on most plays when the defense is on the field. I've seen alot of improvement on his part, and one play in particular stands out. He forced Leftwich out of the pocket into the middle only to be sacked by Sharper. That sack wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for the pressure from Babin. I guess it's all in how you wish to perceive his progress, but overall, I believe him to be a good pick. He could loose the tats though...hehe

SESupergenius
11-01-2004, 02:56 AM
Ever heard of containment???

Babins job is to contain. Wong has more levereage to blitz all out, Babin does not. Babin would get burned of he did a full spin move on every play. George has no clue as to what is goes into making a good LOLB. From what I saw today, and I watch Babin pretty closely, was that he is getting pretty good pressure and flushing out the QB consistantly. Teams are not running on him that is for sure, and that's half his job. The other half he is holding up very well for being a rookie in the 3-4.

aj.
11-01-2004, 06:59 AM
Yes go back to those games, he had one tackle against Tennessee Yes, PLEASE go back to that game and watch every play again and look at the gamebook and maybe, just maybe, you'll understand why he had just one assist against TN. Well, probably not. I broke down Babin's play against TN on another thread here somewhere...

edo783
11-01-2004, 10:31 AM
To be a little fair to GW, I saw what I think he is refering to in the game. Babin on a couple of plays spun a 1/2 turn and stopped and SEEMED to be watching the play move away from him. Hard to say whether he was doing a contain thing or maybe taking a beather and not persuing. I suspect he was making sure that if the play came back towards him that he could make a play.

Ranger98
11-01-2004, 10:54 AM
Everyone else voiced so I'll throw in my two cents.

Babin is way ahead of where we all expected him to be. He's shown flashes of greatness and I am excited. While his spin move has worked for big plays. He uses it way to often and it is worthless until he sets it up with a strong rush up the field. Remember late in the game when he got lefty to step up into sharper. That's why he's great but he needs to start with that to set up the spin and I think in other games he has. This Sunday I don't think he worked the Tackle the way he's capable of.

BIGJIM
11-01-2004, 12:01 PM
Yes you are all correct, except that you did not respond to my main point. I said i dont like how he would give up so much on his rushes. and i agree he probably will be good in a few years, but that doesnt mean i have to like the lack of hustle i saw. he did have some good plays today, but thats no reason to stop in the middle of a spin move with your back to the QB who still has the ball.
Enough talk on what he did not do. Remember this is a team sport. What i saw was a out standing game played by the whole defense.

WWJD
11-01-2004, 12:01 PM
To be honest I think Babin has been pretty average but I didn't expect much really from him considering it's a new position, his size, etc.

He plays smart and I like that. If the defense plays smart that's really all I care about. Stay in position, make the plays you are suppose to make and good things will happen. And that's what is happening.

BIGJIM
11-01-2004, 12:03 PM
I thought Babin had a good game today.
There is much more to the game then just individual stats. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TEXANS> One heck of a game

BIGJIM
11-01-2004, 12:06 PM
Are we always going to have teams in Houston that keep us on edge until the final second of the game.lol

nunusguy
11-01-2004, 01:47 PM
Ever heard of containment???
Babins job is to contain.
Containment is part of Babin's job and he has done reasonably well in that
department. As a 3-4 OLB, another big part of his job is penetration as a pass
rusher, and I think maybe that's the focus of George's critisism ? I know its mine. Because of the huge investment the team has made in Babin, they are giving him every chance to succeed and acquire experience. But I'm sure they wouldn't continue playing him if they weren't satisfyed with both his progress and performance.
After all, we are now on the brink of being a playoff contender and the developement of any player(s) is not as important as the team winning and possibly contending for a playoff spot. Nothing is.
So I don't know if George
has a hidden agenda here or something personal - maybe Babin's fiance is his HS sweetheart.
More likely he's just argumentative. That's what we do here - argue.

El Tejano
11-01-2004, 03:24 PM
I also saw Babin take a RB down from behind with one arm. I also saw Taylor not get a whole lot done before the injury because #93 was making some good tackles on him that weren't made last year.

RTP2110
11-01-2004, 03:41 PM
Texans sack leaders:

Wong 3.5
Babin 2.0
Sharper 2.0
4 tied with 1.0

Babin's fine he just needs time.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 03:51 PM
To be a little fair to GW, I saw what I think he is refering to in the game. Babin on a couple of plays spun a 1/2 turn and stopped and SEEMED to be watching the play move away from him. Hard to say whether he was doing a contain thing or maybe taking a beather and not persuing.

I appreciate someone finally admitting to this other than me. Everyone assumes that Im out to get him because of what i said. I stated what i saw. and i agree with the other statement that the forum is meant to be a place to argue. and i believe that many of you have overlooked the fact that i did agree that he made some good plays, including the open field tackles. My point was simply that mulitple times he stopped moving with his back to the ball, and i feel that for such a "high motor" player that this is unacceptable, and honestly there is no way you could say he was just keeping contain because he couldnt see where the play was even going. And it was also nice to see someone else say that he does spin too much without even a set up move. And isnt being able to have differences of opinions and being able to express them what makes this country so great?

Vinny
11-01-2004, 04:11 PM
And isnt being able to have differences of opinions and being able to express them what makes this country so great?So you shouldn't mind when the others dissagree with you then right? Make your case, back it up, and hold your ground if you believe in it. To me it looks like you don't know what you are talking about, but heck, that's just my opinion.

chicagotexan
11-01-2004, 04:32 PM
Has Babin struggled? YES! Do I see anything that would lead me to believe he'll be an eventual bust? NO! He's not at Arrington or Lewis' level, but give the guy some slack. I don't really understand what you're seeing. Dunta has struggled at times, but I think he will be a very good player. You must have something against bad jailhouse tatoos.

TexansTrueFan
11-01-2004, 04:36 PM
Has Babin struggled? YES! Do I see anything that would lead me to believe he'll be an eventual bust? NO! He's not at Arrington or Lewis' level, but give the guy some slack. I don't really understand what you're seeing. Dunta has struggled at times, but I think he will be a very good player. You must have something against bad jailhouse tatoos.


i like the tats makes him look vicious !!!!!

nunusguy
11-01-2004, 06:02 PM
To me it looks like you don't know what you are talking about, but heck, that's just my opinion.
C'mon man, George made a sincere almost wide-eyed, innocent statement about some of the things that he thinks make this country great, and you stick your finger in his eye with a catty, sarcastic response. What's that about ? Much of his analysis is well grounded and supported with reasoned
detail. Now @ 4-3, has the team become so successful that dissenting opinion about the performance of one of the players become something that
can't be tolerated ?

Vinny
11-01-2004, 06:07 PM
I will speak my mind as you speak yours. If I think you are blowing hot air and misinformation I may comment on it if I please, as you can. Wong averaged 2 tackles a game and less than half a sack a game his first year. I think he is unduly bashing Babin. I will say what I feel when I feel like it. Stating that I think you don't know what you are talking about isn't a personal attack nor is it a lack of toleration. Feel free to tell me I have no clue when it comes to my football insight. You are a click away if you please.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:10 PM
Stating someone doesnt know what they are talking about is a personal attack, by definition it is attacking them and their opinions. Its no different then coaches making decisions on people they like and dislike. Thats why 4th and 5th rounders can make better players than 1st rounders and the coaches still pick people over them. They see different things out of the same situations. And if it was unduly i wouldnt ahve said that he made good plays or that he would be good in the future. And its not misinformation if its factual, based on stats and observation. Its like a lesson in science. You can have two people look at the same data and see the same things but come out with different results. That doesnt make either of them right or wrong. So maybe you can get off of your soap box as the all powerful and all knowing administrator and calm down. If your opinions are so much better than mine and everyone elses then why arent you really working for the texans as a scout?

Vinny
11-01-2004, 07:44 PM
Stating someone doesnt know what they are talking about is a personal attack, by definition it is attacking them and their opinions. Hardly. In my opinion you have little grasp of what you speak of when you comment on Babin in this manner. No attack, just an opinion. btw, 'attacking' an opinion is what you do in a debate.

Its no different then coaches making decisions on people they like and dislike. Eh? I can't figure out that one out.

So maybe you can get off of your soap box as the all powerful and all knowing administrator and calm down. I just post like everyone else. It would help if you would not be intimidated by the label under my name though. My opinion carries no more gravity than yours or anyone else's but you seem to think it does. I can't help that.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-01-2004, 07:46 PM
Please get off Peek's knob. He won't be starting anytime soon, and if he does, it will only be due to an injury to Wong or Babin.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:48 PM
No grasp, correct me if im wrong, but you cant play defense with your back to the ball. Maybe I was nieve in saying that, but in my humble opinion i just thought it would be difficult to make a play or do your job if you dont know where the ball is on the field.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:48 PM
George we all know you hate Babin and you are IN LOVE with Antwan Peek, you don't have to post it every week. We get it. I saw Peek play once yesterday and he ran straight past Byron about 10-15 yards behind him, which is what I said about him in one of your other "I LOVE PEEK AND HATE BABIN" threads.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:49 PM
And i dont think i once mentioned peek in this forum did i?

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-01-2004, 07:51 PM
Everyone here knows you have a hard on for Peek.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:51 PM
lol: No not in this one, but maybe one of the other four you have started...

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:51 PM
i wont lie i have been anti-babin but if you look at what i have said i think my opinion has lightened up, i have said that he will be good, i didnt say he should be replaced, i simply stated that I find standing around unacceptable.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:52 PM
I think if all he did was stand around he would have been benched long ago.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:53 PM
once again misquoting, i didnt say ALL he does is stand, i said a FEW times. Its hard to have a discussion about someone when they have a hard time reading.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:54 PM
Ok, if he stood around FOR ONE PLAY OR A FEW TIMES I am pretty sure he would have been benched already.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-01-2004, 07:56 PM
This guy is the same genius that said Babin should play DE for us just so Peek can get more snaps.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:57 PM
lol: :rofl: Someone has a crush on Antwan Peek...

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 07:58 PM
Watch the tape, he stopped mid spin with his back to Byron. Go up a bit and you will see that others saw the same thing. You cant stop moving if the QB has the ball, that has been my point all along. even if you cant get by you still try to get closer to make a deflection. Call me a liar all you want but its something you can see in the film.

texan279
11-01-2004, 07:59 PM
Or you could just sprint 10 yards behind him like someone else did...

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:00 PM
Yes a DE such as like in a 4-3 so you still have two tackles, with him and peek on the two ends (just like he does normally in the 3-4). That replaces one of the bigger lineman who arent as fast and allows peek, babin and Wong to rush the QB in an obvious pass situation. Doesnt seem too stupid of an idea

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:03 PM
he may get up field too much, true, but if he had a couple of plays that sets up the spin move. What we need is peek to get more than one play so he can set up his moves, and we also need babin to try moving up field to set up his spin. And you cant say that peek would not be able to get some pressure on a QB. And you cant deny that they would be good to have out there all together putting some pressure

texan279
11-01-2004, 08:04 PM
You dogged Babin on another one of your forums for using the spin move, now you say Peek should use it?

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:08 PM
once again a misquote by you. i dogged babin using it on almost every pass rush. i never said he shouldnt use it. I said he needs to mix it up to set up the spin. If you noticed their tackle by later in teh game was sitting there waiting for the spin back inside and thats why it wasnt effective. and if you read what i just said before i said peek needs to use the spin because he goes straight up field too much. so it looks mostly like an equal criticism for the both of them, and i dont remember ever saying that they should both only use one move. once again i guess im ignorant for thinking people should try multiple moves, and call me crazy for thinking that there were things such as set up moves

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:10 PM
I also believe that in practice they probably work on teaching hand movements to get off blockers, i am sure he has these moves and he should use them. He was a DE and i am sure he was good at them in college. He needs to use it.

texan279
11-01-2004, 08:12 PM
The spin move is so ineffective.

Quote by you from another forum. So I misquoted? Exactly.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:14 PM
Once again, it has been ineffective because its all he is using. maybe not a misQUOTE but a misinterpretation. I am jsut interested to see if you can honestly say that you disagree that he needs to mix up his moves?

texan279
11-01-2004, 08:15 PM
No I don't think that, and I am sure if the coaches did, they would have him working on other moves.

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:19 PM
you are saying that someone in the NFL can pass rush by doing one move? are you kidding me. once again, watch the tape he does a spin on 75% of his rushes. not even a stutter step outside or inside and break the other way.

texan279
11-01-2004, 08:23 PM
If you are such an expert on the subject why are you not coaching on our defensive staff? This is my last post on this topic. IF OUR COACHES THOUGHT IT WAS A PROBLEM OR BABIN WAS A PROBLEM THEY WOULD HAVE BENCHED HIM OR CORRECTED THE PROBLEM BY NOW.

Corrosion
11-01-2004, 08:30 PM
This isnt really a conversation we should bother with considering Babin not only a rookie but changing positions completely . Give the guy a season or maybe two before you say he's a complete bust or a wasted pick. He's gotten better as the season has progressed in both his containment assignments and in coverage not to mention in Sunday's game against the cats he did get good pressure on byron many times......
You cant really grade a player in his first season out of the draft most players take 2-3 years to get up to NFL speed . He's started from Day One.

Sometimes i wonder if you are watching the same game I am.




see ya in a couple seasons

georgewashington
11-01-2004, 08:36 PM
once again, did not say on this post that he is a complete bust, i said he will be good. and once again i made an observation about one thing. its ridiculous trying to have an argument/discussion about one thing if no one has responded to the actual point of overuse of a move.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-01-2004, 08:40 PM
if it ain't broke, dont fix it.

our defense has been playing great. no need for any changes.

Reddevil63
11-01-2004, 10:09 PM
didnt run too well at him? they only ran 10 times. I bash him because there is no excuse for giving up on a pash rush. and if you watched he really didnt collapse the pocket that well, and yes i do say this every week because it happens every week. call me a babin hater or whatever else but as long as i see him giving up on plays before they are over there is not going to be any respect from me, no excuse to stopping during a play with your back to the ball that many times.
And it was 10 times for like 21 yards. They didnt run much because they basically couldnt. You know what that means? Babin was good in run D. He will get a hang of rushing the QB just give him time. Whens the last time you were just able to run around a 6 and a half foot 300+ lb Offensive Tackle? You see giving up, I see him fighting his guts out.

Porky
11-02-2004, 12:06 AM
Why should I take George Washington seriousely. Heck at well over 200 years old, you can't see, and you have senility. Why am I even responding. Go ask Ben for some bi-focals. Maybe you'll be able to see the plays better.

Now, as to the pertinent question, here is the answer. Peek cannot play the run. He can't contain on the outside, and cannot shed the blocker to make a tackle on the RB turning the corner. If you can't play the run, you can't play in a Caper's 3-4. Babin has held containment very well imo, especially for a rookie learning a new position. If you expected Babin to play like a well seasoned Keving Greene in his very first season learning a new position, then your expections need to get rearranged in your cerebial vortex. Go ask Adams or Madison what that means.

Andre_Johnson80
11-02-2004, 09:34 AM
Im tired of all this Babin is improving talk. Did anyone watch him today, his pass rush is terrible. He got pressure twice, once Byron completed a 20 yard pass still, and the other time he wiffed and missed a sack. And if you watch the tackle even cheated by letting him get a step high because everytime he rolled back to the inside. And half of the spins he stopped halfway around and just stood there with his back to the ball. He made one good open field tackle, but most of the time he is just standing around. You cant really be improving much when you dont do anything. He is very over rated.


Hes a Rookie and Hes not Terrell Suggs (That LB is going to be one of the BEST LOLB to ever play the game) But he is going to get better he is just getting a hang at LB and he is just try to adjust to the NFL play..

chicagotexan
11-02-2004, 10:56 AM
Stating someone doesnt know what they are talking about is a personal attack, by definition it is attacking them and their opinions.

Man please. He didn't call you an *****, nor did anyone insult your religion, sexual persuassion, ethnicity, politics. Lighten up. I sure as hell think you are way off in your critisism, but that doesn't mean Babin or anyother player should be criticized. Babin is a project, an experiment if you will, but hasn't shown me that he'll be a bust. Patience grasshopper. Patience.

nunusguy
11-02-2004, 11:13 AM
Hes a Rookie and Hes not Terrell Suggs (That LB is going to be one of the BEST LOLB to ever play the game) But he is going to get better he is just getting a hang at LB and he is just try to adjust to the NFL play..
You know Andre, I think that's the issue for some of us (me for sure). I remember reading so much about Suggs last year because we were real close
to taking him, atleast in the preliminary stages of the draft analysis. But as you probably recall, his workouts (particularly 40 times) were very disappointing and that was very instrumental in us passing on him. And then when he went to play for the Ravens, it turned out that he was the "real deal". And we have been so needing a steller pass rusher at OLB. And then we drafted Babin, and in a controversial style by
paying such a premium price to the Titans for him. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.

Blake
11-02-2004, 11:15 AM
5 things I think about #93.

1. Sure open field tackler.

2. Nice containment.

3. Keeps a cool head. *cough* PEEK *cough*

4. Has a good motor, and gives 100%.

5. Is a rookie, and is bound to make mistakes. Give him a chance like we did with everyother rookie. Carr, Gaff, Dunta, and many others.

**********
The Texans are 4-3, and 2-0 in the AFC south! Holy Hell!!!

Andre_Johnson80
11-02-2004, 11:23 AM
You know Andre, I think that's the issue for some of us (me for sure). I remember reading so much about Suggs last year because we were real close
to taking him, atleast in the preliminary stages of the draft analysis. But as you probably recall, his workouts (particularly 40 times) were very disappointing and that was very instrumental in us passing on him. And then when he went to play for the Ravens, it turned out that he was the "real deal". And we have been so needing a steller pass rusher at OLB. And then we drafted Babin, and in a controversial style by
paying such a premium price to the Titans for him. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.

Thanks for seeing it like that man, But look who we got, the best WR taken in years from what I can see. AJ will continue to show us why we took him third in the draft.. Terrell suggs is awesome and they both would have done us great but I know we did the right thing in taking AJ.

georgewashington
11-02-2004, 01:58 PM
I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been

nunusguy
11-02-2004, 02:02 PM
Thanks for seeing it like that man, But look who we got, the best WR taken in years from what I can see. AJ will continue to show us why we took him third in the draft.. Terrell suggs is awesome and they both would have done us great but I know we did the right thing in taking AJ.
Absolutely ! You know Andre, so much of the exchanges on this board surrounding Babin have been negative, we're gonna have to stop being so congenial or they might throw us off the board for being out of step with the crowd. But yea, Jason Babin is no Terrell Suggs. But as good as Suggs is and ultimately may end up being, I bet AJ beats him to the HOF ! I think our guy could be that great ! We got the best football player in the 2003 NFL college draft ! End of story.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
11-02-2004, 02:14 PM
Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around. I guess I figured he would be
the explosive, dominant edge rusher that Suggs turned out to be very early in his NFL career - and Jason is not that. I just gotta lower my expectations.



Babin was not going to be on the board in the second round. The Patriots were going to take him if he was available at #32. In Suggs' rookie season, the Ravens used him as a situational pass rusher because he couldn't defend the run. Now after 1 season, Suggs is playing like a complete OLB. Babin, in his rookie season, plays the run MUCH better than Suggs did in his. Let's give Babin at least a full season before we start judging him. Who knows, maybe Babin's pass rush will improve as much as Suggs did defending the run.

Vinny
11-02-2004, 02:15 PM
I dont think he disagrees with taking AJ over Suggs, he is just saying that Babin was billed to be the next suggs coming off the edge and hasnt been
If that is the case he would have been put on the weak side. They put Babin on the strong side because of his run support and all-around game. You put your best pass rusher on the weak side/blind side. We haven't allowed a TD in quite a few quarters now and held the Jags down like no one has. If he was a big liability he would be exploited like Matt Stephens was. Trust me, if you are a weak link in the NFL, coordinators will exploit you.

TexansTrueFan
11-02-2004, 02:16 PM
Dear George

Babin is a monster get of his jock
Peeks your type why dont ya **** his ***k
I'm a democrat along with you
but babin can do things that peek cant do
I know peek can rush tha QB
but when it comes to the rush its babin you'll see
I like babin along with most
peek looks flatter than jelly on toast

Errant Hothy
11-02-2004, 02:40 PM
. Especially when many feel we could have patiently waited with our 2 round pick and found him on the board when our turn came around.

Goose Gosslin, the man who has had the best reorcd in projecting the draft the last five years had Babin going aroung 25 to 30, if I remember correctly. So it's really safe to say that not only would he not have been there for us in the second round, he probaly wouldn't even have been ther in teh second round all together.

Corrosion
11-02-2004, 03:01 PM
You guy's are beating a dead horse .


georgewashington the next titanico :hehe:

Htown34s
11-02-2004, 04:02 PM
The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?

Andre_Johnson80
11-02-2004, 05:09 PM
This discussion is going no where haha

georgewashington
11-02-2004, 07:49 PM
The way I see this Babin vs. Peek thing is the that Babin has more upside, especially his ability to cover a TE. He may not have the huge motor that Peek does, but close. But he has a lot of other tools that Peek doesn't like the ability to drop into pass coverage.

I thought this was well known and that the coaches have even said this before. Peek is a 100% pass rush guy, and a good addition to the team. He is just more of a specialty type player.

Peek got burned last year when trying to cover a TE. Babin got confused a few times in preseason, but has been right on top of guys during coverage lately.

Am I wrong on this?

I believe peek has had to cover some TE routes this season, without getting burned. The argument is not coverage, its the run stopping. And i have a feeling that if he was in on non-passing downs, he wouldnt be running all over the place like everyone says. But I guess everyone thinks of him as a simpleton who is only capable of running forward. I once again bring up something that ive said before, 100+ tackles his senior year in college, Im sure quite a few of those were stopping the running back, and that also led his team. Maybe like i have said his development would be improving at a faster rate if he too had some playing time. My whole argument this year is taht if everyone says just give babin some time to get use to playing, you cant say Peek wouldnt benefit from a similar opportunity.

Vinny
11-02-2004, 07:50 PM
Every time Peek was in the game in running situations last year he was picked on and exposed. Teams exploited him because that is what they do when you have a weakness. You don't see Babin get picked on like Peek was last year. Perhaps you didn't see any games last season?

georgewashington
11-02-2004, 09:08 PM
i never said he didnt need to work on run defense, i never said he was perfect at it. i said that he would probably be moving forward faster if he was given more chances, just as everyone is saying that babin will be getting better with his playing chances. and i did see him last season, he did have some mistakes but just like you say babin will make some being a rookie, so did he. i have realized that this really isnt anything to argue about because they are in two different places on the team. babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)

nunusguy
11-02-2004, 10:03 PM
babin is going to be given the chance to grow and improve in games, where as peek will have to do it in practice (which in the NFL isnt as likely since there isnt much hitting etc. during practice in season)
That's a good point George, and its really a form of economic discrimination
that Peek is living under because the Texans have far less invested in him
than they do Babin. And there's politices to because Babin is a guy C&C
have made a big gamble on with the huge payday the Titans got when they
handed over their 1st rounder to them. The ole man(McNair) would not look favorably on so much being spent on a dud. But having said all this, it may be that Babin is the best guy for the job anyway. It just seems kinda unfair to
Peek that he doesn't get the same opportunity that Babin does - but as they
say, life is unfair.

georgewashington
11-02-2004, 11:36 PM
Wong had 34 tackles and 5.5 sacks on the strong side OLB his first year here starting all 16 games. That is the same side Babin is on. It takes time, and the OLB will not get the majority of the tackles in this defense, but you need to understand that to grasp that.


And Vinny i just looked up this little fact of yours, and i believe on teh texans page it says that in wongs first year with the texans he "Started in all 16 games, tying for third on defense with 5 sacks…added 89 tackles, one forced fumble and two passes defensed" looks like im not the only one that has no idea what im talking about. and in 2003 he had 86 tackles. Thats pretty many for a guy playing LOLB who doesnt shouldnt get a majority of the tackles?

Vinny
11-02-2004, 11:53 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840/gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

SESupergenius
11-03-2004, 12:01 AM
Peek has had every opportunity to crack the starting lineup. He's been a starter for some games, been through 2 training camps and still has not been able to unseat a veteran. Babin is better, that is just a fact. He has the smarts, power and speed to hold his position on every play. Peek is simplay more of a project than Babin, Peek probably is taking more time to excel at the position of OLB, similar to progression that Joey Porter, Jason Gildon, Mike Vrabel and many others that have had to convert to a 3-4 system coming out of college. Peek is perfect right now for where he is positioned, 3rd down pass situations. He is slowly being brought along and should be able to crack a spot next year, typically the time when players like him start to grasp the system. I've watched Babin pretty close, as pretty much everyone has, and he is looking very solid for being a rookie in the 3-4. Could the same be said for Peek if he were inserted there in his rookie year? No, he had his share of troubles last year.

georgewashington
11-03-2004, 12:45 AM
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840

Year Team G Total Tckl Ast Sacks Int Yds Avg Lg TD Pass Def
1998 Minnesota Vikings 15 19 17.0 2 1.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 1
1999 Minnesota Vikings 13 48 35.0 13 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 2
2000 Minnesota Vikings 16 112 84.0 28 2 2 28 14.0 14 0 2
2001 Minnesota Vikings 16 98 83.0 15 3 1 27 27.0 27 1 3
2002 Houston Texans 16 43 34.0 9 5.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 8

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12840/gamelogs/2002

GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
09/08 Dallas W 19-10 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/15 @San Diego L 3-24 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
09/22 Indianapolis L 3-23 Yes 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
09/29 @Philadelphia L 17-35 Yes 2.0 2 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

October Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
10/13 Buffalo L 24-31 Yes 3.0 2 1 0.5 0 0 0 0 2 1 0 0 0
10/20 @Cleveland L 17-34 Yes 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10/27 @Jacksonville W 21-19 Yes 4.0 4 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0

November Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
11/03 Cincinnati L 3-38 Yes 3.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/10 @Tennessee L 10-17 Yes 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
11/17 Jacksonville L 21-24 Yes 2.0 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
11/24 New York W 16-14 Yes 3.0 3 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0

December Tackles Interceptions Fumbles
GAMEDATE Opp RESULT GS Tkl Solo Ast Sacks Int Yds Lg TD Pass Def FF Rec Yds TD
12/01 @Indianapolis L 3-19 Yes 3.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/08 @Pittsburgh W 24-6 Yes 2.0 2 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0
12/15 Baltimore L 19-23 Yes 2.0 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
12/22 @Washington L 10-26 Yes 1.0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0
12/29 Tennessee L 3-13 Yes 2.0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0


I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web page

SESupergenius
11-03-2004, 01:18 AM
If you look further at this years rookie crop you can see that Babin is doing just fine

12 pick, J. Vilma, 27 tackles, 1.5 sacks
14 pick, T. Harris, 15 tackles, 2.5 sacks
17 pick, DJ WIllimas, 39 tackles, 1 sack
18 pick, Will Smith, 13 tackles, 2 sacks
20 pick, Udeze, Kenechi, 14 tackles, 3 sacks
21 pick, Vince Wilfork, 14 tackles, 2 sacks
23 pick, Marcus Tubbs, 2 tackles, 0 sacks
27 pick, Jason Babin, 18 tackles, 2 sacks
33 pick, Carlos Dansby, 13 tackles, 1 sack
35 pick, I. Olshansky, 17 tackles, 1 sack
37 pick, T. Lehman, 35 tackles, 0 sacks
42 pick, T. LaBoy, 5 tackels, 2.5 sacks
48 pick, Dontarrious Thomas, 28 tackles, 1 sack


Come on now young pup, give Babin a little slack, he is stacking up well with 1st round picks or at least take into consideration that when compared to where we drafted him he is not doing any worse.

Grid
11-03-2004, 01:25 AM
well.. look at those stats, then consider the fact that the only guys doing better than him are Williams, Vilma, Lehman, and Thomas.. and they arent learning a new position like Babin (and none of em have 2 sacks).

Way I see it.. Babin is allowed to be average to sub-par this year. Next year I expect him to show that he deserved to be a 1st rounder. and his third year.. I HOPE for him to show everyone that our front office has a nose for playmakers and for him to be considered one of the better OLBs in the league. Hes off to a good start in my book.

Vinny
11-03-2004, 01:39 AM
I guess i stand corrected, i was just quoting the texans web pageWelcome to the forum George. We have a small group that has been discussing football here for years. Most of us know who grasps the game well (amongst our long time posters), and frankly we don't know you in any other manner except that you have come in sideways on the rookie and bring an argument that has a weak foundation and no basis. I've done it myself. We all learn something collectively when you (or anyone) brings forth a good argument and can back it up with a bit of logic and rational thought. Hang in there and you will learn a few things from guys like ses, aj, infantrycak, Lucky and many of our other long-term posters (too many to mention, but you will figure out who knows his stuff and who doesn't as you measure their comments with what happens on the field). I'm sure we can learn a thing or two from you also. Just throw down your take and back it up. I've been owned by Ses, aj, Lucky, and a few others over the years on a few issues from time to time. I throw out a ton of opinion so I'm going to be wrong sometimes. In turn, I'm sure I've probably changed their thinking on a few issues from time to time. We know how you feel on this issue. Perhaps if you came at it less absoutely you would find more acceptance to your point of view.

Give a little, take a little. It's all good.

:thumbup

Andre_Johnson80
11-03-2004, 09:03 AM
Ok, if he stood around FOR ONE PLAY OR A FEW TIMES I am pretty sure he would have been benched already.

No Dought, They wouldn't be having him start games if he didn't do anything Right!?!