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Marcus
05-01-2007, 10:21 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review67.html

Interesting read, even though I strongly disagree with it.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100555&postcount=2

Grams
05-01-2007, 10:30 PM
Nice reply!

Runner
05-01-2007, 10:53 PM
Well, he certainly presents what is the minority view at this time. Maybe that'll change if the Texans still can't run a 7 or even 5 step drop pass play with any consistency next year.

Then again, maybe the Texans will prove a successful team needs four blue chip lineman on the dline and can cobble together an o-line out of a couple of high end players and spare parts because it's the Denver way.

Next season will be very interesting. I predict an offense weighted toward the run lke the end of last year, with a somewhat more successful passing game due to the QB change. I don't think they'll have a complete deep passing game due to lingering line problems.

I think the defense will be much improved and be the backbone of the team.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
05-01-2007, 10:54 PM
He forgot to mention the New England Patriots whose defensive line consists of nothing but first round picks.

Double Barrel
05-01-2007, 11:13 PM
Man, that's brutal. Potentially, what he said could be true. Obviously I hope not, but with our d-line last year, we didn't put much consistent pressure on the QB. Will Okoye make all the difference?

I think a healthy Mario will be a difference, too. Man do I hope he's got an inner fire that's burning with desire to prove himself in the face of negativity and doubt. We've got some solid defenders, especially with DeMeco as the centerpiece. So you could just as easily argue the opposite of what this article is saying, because it's all based on unknowns.

infantrycak
05-01-2007, 11:13 PM
And the Doomsday D with Harvey Marin, Ed Jones and Randy White drafted in subsequent years.

Runner
05-01-2007, 11:23 PM
Many of the most successful teams seem to be weighted to being strong on one side of the ball and great on other. I don't think there is one answer, and I don't know how easily that can be controlled given the unpredicatbility of players translating from college to the NFL. At some point the strong side becomes stronger from its own momentum - good players become better when surrounded by success.

At this point it appears the Texans may be giving their defense more of a chance to be the stronger side. It seems odd from an offensive minded head coach. Maybe they evaluated everything and decided they could build a strong defense more quickly as they tore down and rebuilt the offense. That way they get quicker improvement while building for the long term.

Just a theory.

michaelm
05-01-2007, 11:51 PM
I guess he can't see the contradiction he is presenting.
He says you don't want to blitz Peyton because of his quick release, and you just don't want to blitz VY, period...
I don't know what that has to do with drafting a DT, or having a dominant line, but I can tell you the only way to get to a quarterback without blitzing is to have a good pass rushing DL...
Unless he is saying we shouldn't want to get to the QB at all????

michaelm
05-01-2007, 11:55 PM
Many of the most successful teams seem to be weighted to being strong on one side of the ball and great on other. I don't think there is one answer, and I don't know how easily that can be controlled given the unpredicatbility of players translating from college to the NFL. At some point the strong side becomes stronger from its own momentum - good players become better when surrounded by success.

At this point it appears the Texans may be giving their defense more of a chance to be the stronger side. It seems odd from an offensive minded head coach. Maybe they evaluated everything and decided they could build a strong defense more quickly as they tore down and rebuilt the offense. That way they get quicker improvement while building for the long term.

Just a theory.

Maybe Kubiak thinks he can do more with less on offense... he might feel that since he is an offensive minded coach, he will need better personnel on the D to achieve the same level of success he can get out of the O through his own skill...

Marcus
05-02-2007, 12:38 AM
I just think Bob was irritated that his player wasn't taken with the 10th pick, which so happened to be an offensive player, whether it was Adrian Peterson, who was gone already, or Ted Ginn, who was gone already, or Levi Brown, who was gone already.

Who did that leave, offensive player wise, that would NOT have been a huge reach at 10?

It's not a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, Kubiak and Smith had Akoye rated as the BPA, after the other players had been taken.

But noooooo . . . Bob thinks they are "obsessed" with the defensive line.

Shaft75
05-02-2007, 01:00 AM
I just think Bob was irritated that his player wasn't taken with the 10th pick, which so happened to be an offensive player, whether it was Adrian Peterson, who was gone already, or Ted Ginn, who was gone already, or Levi Brown, who was gone already.

Who did that leave, offensive player wise, that would NOT have been a huge reach at 10?

It's not a stretch to think that maybe, just maybe, Kubiak and Smith had Akoye rated as the BPA, after the other players had been taken.

But noooooo . . . Bob thinks they are "obsessed" with the defensive line.

I believe in that assessment. I think Okoye was there top rated defensive player that was left. I would guess that Landry was at the very top though. It's funny that Atlanta is praised for taking Anderson at 8...

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 06:07 AM
Texans OL draft .

Pitts 2nd rd
Weary 3rd rd
Wand 3rd rd
Hodgon 5th rd
Spencer 3rd rd
Winston 3rd rd
Brown sup

Free Agents

Mckinney
Wade
Salaam
Black
Weigert
Flannigan

I don't know who else off the top of my head but you figure 5 of these guys could play .

rickyb
05-02-2007, 06:52 AM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review67.html

Interesting read, even though I strongly disagree with it.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100555&postcount=2

Dude, your response "rocked the house. Big time." I could not agree more.

Also, it is good to find this forum again. I much prefer this format to the new boards at the revamped texans website.

infantrycak
05-02-2007, 08:36 AM
It seems odd from an offensive minded head coach.

See, I think just the opposite. I like a HC who says I know one side best so I will put more talent on the other side and do my coaching magic where I am an expert. Look at what Jimmy Johnson did or at how Dungy consistently makes do with less money and stars on the D. Capers violated the pooch by doing the opposite and over controlling the O and ignoring Fangio not running the D the way he would have.

Texans_Chick
05-02-2007, 08:47 AM
I guess he can't see the contradiction he is presenting.
He says you don't want to blitz Peyton because of his quick release, and you just don't want to blitz VY, period...
I don't know what that has to do with drafting a DT, or having a dominant line, but I can tell you the only way to get to a quarterback without blitzing is to have a good pass rushing DL...
Unless he is saying we shouldn't want to get to the QB at all????

Exactly.

This is what I wrote on the thread:

Yeah, the Texans have taken Dline in the first round the last four years. And yeah, they have a lot of salary cap money allocated that way.

However, Babin/TJ should almost not count because a. they were chosen for a 3-4, b. Casserly admitted at the time that he had difficulties drafting for the 3-4.

The Texans started street free agents as DT for most of the season. I remember the game where I saw two TJ's on the field for the first time and going who the @#$% is Thomas Johnson??? (a practice squader from Dallas, IIRC).

People commended Rick Smith for being able to find all these street free agents to play defensive tackle, but there's not much of a surprise that the Texans didn't have much of a pass rush if you play street free agents for your tackles for most of the season.

Okoye is a good pick for BPA.

Okoye is a good pick for need.

BTW, IIRC, during the 2004 season, the Houston Texans had the most expensive offensive line in the league. Didn't help.

You can't draft or sign what isn't there. 2007 was not a deep offensive linemen draft, but was a deep defensive linemen draft. As it relates to the offensive line this offseason, I can't think of a move that they should have made on the offensive line that they didn't.

Texans_Chick
05-02-2007, 08:49 AM
See, I think just the opposite. I like a HC who says I know one side best so I will put more talent on the other side and do my coaching magic where I am an expert. Look at what Jimmy Johnson did or at how Dungy consistently makes do with less money and stars on the D. Capers violated the pooch by doing the opposite and over controlling the O and ignoring Fangio not running the D the way he would have.

Amen brother.

And this is typical Denver thinking. Take defense high in the draft unless their is an offense player that you really think you can work with, and then take system offense players lower.

Kubiak obviously has a lot of confidence that he can do what he wants to do on the offensive side of the ball, but figures he needs to get the defense all the help they can get.

Dallas_Texan
05-02-2007, 08:53 AM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review67.html

Interesting read, even though I strongly disagree with it.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100555&postcount=2

He had me until he said Scarface was laughably bad :bat:

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 09:14 AM
In my point of view your defense linemen are better athletes than the OL ... why because they have to read and react . So aside from OLTs they get picked higher than most OL .

The OL knows the play so they have to execute . The LTs get picked high because they have to be athletic enough to handle an edge rusher on most QBs blind side .

The best OL in my opinion in recent history was the 90's Cowboys ( ouch ... that hurts ) . Anyone know how they were built .

Mark Tuinie (sp ) drafted as a DT moved to OT .
Nate Newton ... drafted by the Redskins , cut by the Redskins , USFL , Cowboys as a FA .
Mark Stepnoski ... drafted 3rd round .
Larry Allen ... drafted 2nd round .
Erik Williams ... drafted third round

Anyone see a 1st round pick here . I'll bet if you looked up the DL you'll find Jimmy Johnson had some 1st round picks on it .

I looked it up ... in the 90's the Cowboys drafted 6 defensive linemen in the 1st round while drafting 0 offensive linemen

Porky
05-02-2007, 09:51 AM
In my point of view your defense linemen are better athletes than the OL ... why because they have to read and react . So aside from OLTs they get picked higher than most OL .

The OL knows the play so they have to execute . The LTs get picked high because they have to be athletic enough to handle an edge rusher on most QBs blind side .

The best OL in my opinion in recent history was the 90's Cowboys ( ouch ... that hurts ) . Anyone know how they were built .

Mark Tuinie (sp ) drafted as a DT moved to OT .
Nate Newton ... drafted by the Redskins , cut by the Redskins , USFL , Cowboys as a FA .
Mark Stepnoski ... drafted 3rd round .
Larry Allen ... drafted 2nd round .
Erik Williams ... drafted third round

Anyone see a 1st round pick here . I'll bet if you looked up the DL you'll find Jimmy Johnson had some 1st round picks on it .

I looked it up ... in the 90's the Cowboys drafted 6 defensive linemen in the 1st round while drafting 0 offensive linemen

You mean Dr. Z didn't bash the Cowboys for ignoring the line? :gun:

Great post btw!

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 10:05 AM
You mean Dr. Z didn't bash the Cowboys for ignoring the line? :gun:

Great post btw!

No but Buddy Ryan sure gave him hell . Remember the bounty bowl .

Of course in a couple of years thanks to the Vikings the Cowboys were the most talented team ( ouch again ) in the NFL .

Specnatz
05-02-2007, 10:08 AM
Mark Schlereth, Mel Kiper and a host of others complain that the Texans did not address the O-line, Bob here is doing the same thing they are doing. Complaining to complain. If Levi had dropped to 10 the Texans would have to consider him but he did not. Sure the Texans could have easily taken Revis or Hall but getting actual pressure on a QB would be just as helpful to the secondary if not more so. Of course us fans can not ask these so called experts what line man at 10 would you have taken? If they had taken one then it would have been a reach and more criticism would insue.

St Louis, Pittsburgh and Buffallo all gave up more sacks than Houston and they did not take a OL but that is ok for them to do so. Dallas had a worse pass defense than Houston and there draft is hearlded, yet they did not take any soncondary help. Thats right they said Dallas getting more of a pass rush will help them out tremendously, (But this will not help Houston). If these so called experts would be consistant in what they talk about it would probably give me heart failure.

What ever happen to defense wins championships? Does this only apply to anyone but the team I love, is everything they do wrong? Sorry Houston is not drma central like dallas, but I will take not having drama and improve the team for the long haul versus short fixes that so many want.

:texflag:

nunusguy
05-02-2007, 10:10 AM
Couple things.
First, Scarface was not just "the laughably bad 1983 movie". OK it had some goofey parts and definitely went on too long. But its got some entertaining moments and has become a bit of a cult film in some circles. Back to football.
Whoever pointed out that in spite of all the money we're spending on this DLine we still aren't getting the desired results is on the money. And I wonder if Okoye isn't kinda like using a sledge hammer to put a nail in a 2 by 4 ?
The thing is, we all know that the primary pass rush, the most effective pass rush comes off the edge of the DLine and not from its interior or inside. So I gotta question the wisdom of drafting a DT to be one of the main pass rushers. Distruptive, yea, but if one of your top sack guys is a DT. I dunno about that ? But then I've wondered if Okoye, with his quickness, might be see some time playing DE ?

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 10:17 AM
I think that there was not a top notch CB in the draft ... therefore it would be a reach at 10 .

What would ESPN say if we took Staley or Khalil at #10 ?

I can only assume that there was not a trade offer worth taking so Okoye was the Texans bpa .

We may have wanted Landry , Brown , or Peterson but they were gone .

The1ApplePie
05-02-2007, 10:39 AM
One shut down corner can do more for a Defense than 4 D-Linemen. Not sure if Revis or Hall were shutdown corners.

Broncos: Horrible D-Linemen, great CB. They had no pass rush, and did pretty well. A guy that can make half the field a non factor trumps a pass rush.

So what if we have a pass rush? Who is going to cover anyone besides D-Rob?

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 10:46 AM
One shut down corner can do more for a Defense than 4 D-Linemen. Not sure if Revis or Hall were shutdown corners.

Broncos: Horrible D-Linemen, great CB. They had no pass rush, and did pretty well. A guy that can make half the field a non factor trumps a pass rush.

So what if we have a pass rush? Who is going to cover anyone besides D-Rob?

OK lets make a list of shutdown corners .... Champ Bailey , Assante Samuel , Nate Clements who else ?

Porky
05-02-2007, 10:52 AM
Couple things.
First, Scarface was not just "the laughably bad 1983 movie". OK it had some goofey parts and definitely went on too long. But its got some entertaining moments and has become a bit of a cult film in some circles. Back to football.
Whoever pointed out that in spite of all the money we're spending on this DLine we still aren't getting the desired results is on the money. And I wonder if Okoye isn't kinda like using a sledge hammer to put a nail in a 2 by 4 ?
The thing is, we all know that the primary pass rush, the most effective pass rush comes off the edge of the DLine and not from its interior or inside. So I gotta question the wisdom of drafting a DT to be one of the main pass rushers. Distruptive, yea, but if one of your top sack guys is a DT. I dunno about that ? But then I've wondered if Okoye, with his quickness, might be see some time playing DE ?

If you have a quick disruptive guy pushing the pocket from the inside, and good edge rushers, the QB is unable to step up into the pocket and avoid the edge rush. He may not get a dozen sacks a year, but if he can get to a point in a yr or two where he semi-consistently collapses the pocket, and draws a double team, that will help Mario, the other DE, and guys like Ryans and Robsinson will be able to blitz freely at times. Even if he isn't sacked, maybe the QB can't follow thru on a pass and it gets picked. Maybe he has to throw sooner than he wants. If we judge this guy on sacks and stats alone, than all of us are making a huge mistake. It's how he impacts the defense as a whole, and in that sense, to me this is an A+ pick.

Specnatz
05-02-2007, 10:53 AM
Couple things.
First, Scarface was not just "the laughably bad 1983 movie". OK it had some goofey parts and definitely went on too long. But its got some entertaining moments and has become a bit of a cult film in some circles. Back to football.
Whoever pointed out that in spite of all the money we're spending on this DLine we still aren't getting the desired results is on the money. And I wonder if Okoye isn't kinda like using a sledge hammer to put a nail in a 2 by 4 ?
The thing is, we all know that the primary pass rush, the most effective pass rush comes off the edge of the DLine and not from its interior or inside. So I gotta question the wisdom of drafting a DT to be one of the main pass rushers. Distruptive, yea, but if one of your top sack guys is a DT. I dunno about that ? But then I've wondered if Okoye, with his quickness, might be see some time playing DE ?

True but if you have no one in the middle that takes any pressure away from the edge rushers your just not going to have a very good pass rush.

Denver has thhe 15th ranked attacking defense in it got 36 sacks for the season and the 21nd ranked pass defense with giving up 212.9 yards a game.

Houston: Tied for 27 with 28 sacks, and 22 with 215.3 yards per game. Plus Houston had to face the Colts twice a year.

Houston gave up 122.3 yards at a 4.4 average per game.

With Mario healthy and Okoye living up to promise it should effect all areas of defense. QB has less time to throw, and when the team s not throwing the ball we had to have more consistant play at DT to stop the run.

Do I still worry about the O-Line, yes but I also know the O-Line improved over the course of last season despite all the injuries. I am just going to have to go by what I saw last year and think the coaches think that there was nothing to be had in this draft.

Shaft75
05-02-2007, 10:59 AM
The big boys on the line on either side of the ball never get the love they deserve. I am sure we will see a solid improvement this year with some of the new guys that we have and Frank Bush throwing his two-sense in.

Scooter
05-02-2007, 11:39 AM
He forgot to mention the New England Patriots whose defensive line consists of nothing but first round picks.

good point ... the belichick era started with Richard Seymour (6th overall, DE), Ty Warren (13th overall, DE), and Vince Wilfork (21st overall, DT). coincidently, they won the superbowl in those 3 years (01, 03, 04). in 2000 they didnt have a first rounder and in 02 they took daniel graham and missed the playoffs.

Scooter
05-02-2007, 11:53 AM
See, I think just the opposite. I like a HC who says I know one side best so I will put more talent on the other side and do my coaching magic where I am an expert. Look at what Jimmy Johnson did or at how Dungy consistently makes do with less money and stars on the D. Capers violated the pooch by doing the opposite and over controlling the O and ignoring Fangio not running the D the way he would have.

definitely. the same can be said for denver where shanahan focuses on acquiring talent on defense because he can make a lot more out of what's there on offense. cutler's the only big prospect the broncos have gotten on offense in probably more than a decade. capers is the best example of what happens when coaches meddle where they're not wanted, and dont acquire enough talent on their weak side. had capers coached the defense and drafted primarily for the offense, we might have actually sniffed a winning season during his time here.

hollywood_texan
05-02-2007, 11:59 AM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review67.html

Interesting read, even though I strongly disagree with it.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/forums/showpost.php?p=100555&postcount=2

There are merits to both sides of the coin.

The REAL problem with the Texans as I see it, they are really don't have any strengths after 5 seasons.

To some extent, the Texans are victims of circumstance regarding draft selection. How were they supposed to address the offensive tackle issue when picking #10 and the top 2 guys on the board are gone by pick #5 this year? In addition, they didn't have a 2nd round pick this year because of the Schuab deal.

In my opinion, it's not the defensive line that has hurt the Texans so much, it has been the QB position. The Texans gave and hoped so much on Carr and then bailed out to dig a similar hole with Schuab. Hopefully Schuab can deliver considering the talent situation.

Lastly, I am a defensive guy, particuraly a 4-3 guy and with a heavy emphasis on the front four. Having said that, I am getting a little tired of the draft picks on the defensive line.

Until the Texans start winning and winning some big games, this type of analysis is going to be laid out there, and for good reason I might add.

HoustonFrog
05-02-2007, 12:15 PM
In my point of view your defense linemen are better athletes than the OL ... why because they have to read and react . So aside from OLTs they get picked higher than most OL .

The OL knows the play so they have to execute . The LTs get picked high because they have to be athletic enough to handle an edge rusher on most QBs blind side .

The best OL in my opinion in recent history was the 90's Cowboys ( ouch ... that hurts ) . Anyone know how they were built .

Mark Tuinie (sp ) drafted as a DT moved to OT .
Nate Newton ... drafted by the Redskins , cut by the Redskins , USFL , Cowboys as a FA .
Mark Stepnoski ... drafted 3rd round .
Larry Allen ... drafted 2nd round .
Erik Williams ... drafted third round

Anyone see a 1st round pick here . I'll bet if you looked up the DL you'll find Jimmy Johnson had some 1st round picks on it .

I looked it up ... in the 90's the Cowboys drafted 6 defensive linemen in the 1st round while drafting 0 offensive linemen

The funny part is that Russell Maryland was guy who was pedestrian in the regular season and then came on strong in the playoffs. He wasn't as much a guy who got sacks as a guy who held the line and disrupted things while the LBs ran wild. In fact Dallas' D was known more for their fast LBs and a D-line that came in waves because they had depth. But besides aquiring Haley, they didn't have a ton of guys consitently on the QB. Haley put them over the top. They had a true "unit" built on speed.

I may get killed for this but I agree in part with this guy. You don't need studs across the line to get it done. You need consistency in the middle while you hopefully get rush from the outsides and your interior guys allow the LBs to move. I don't agree with his O-line assessment however, because, as stated here, lines can be built on 2nd and 3rd round picks.

Overall I don't think he wrote anything that is so out of place where he should get jumped. I don't agree with him on many things but I see his side of the issue.

I'll say this, issues like this crack me up because we have had a horrible team for 5 years. Obviously things haven't been getting done. I'm optimistic in Smith and Kubiak that the trend is moving away from this but people who are negative to our plight aren't exactly idiots, they are pointing out things that COULD be flaws in the system so far. I'm amazed that there are people that so readily just nod the head and agree with all the things we do. I like to look at these issues openly and though the piece is debatable it isn't treason.

Double Barrel
05-02-2007, 12:18 PM
Mark Schlereth, Mel Kiper and a host of others complain that the Texans did not address the O-line, Bob here is doing the same thing they are doing. Complaining to complain. If Levi had dropped to 10 the Texans would have to consider him but he did not. Sure the Texans could have easily taken Revis or Hall but getting actual pressure on a QB would be just as helpful to the secondary if not more so. Of course us fans can not ask these so called experts what line man at 10 would you have taken? If they had taken one then it would have been a reach and more criticism would insue.

St Louis, Pittsburgh and Buffallo all gave up more sacks than Houston and they did not take a OL but that is ok for them to do so. Dallas had a worse pass defense than Houston and there draft is hearlded, yet they did not take any soncondary help. Thats right they said Dallas getting more of a pass rush will help them out tremendously, (But this will not help Houston). If these so called experts would be consistant in what they talk about it would probably give me heart failure.


What's even funnier is the clips they show of Carr getting sacked while they diss the Texans draft. At least half of the sack 'highlights' could have been avoided by Carr if he had just gotten rid of the ball or stepped up into the pocket. Nobody on the national scene ever holds DC accountable for even one of his sacks, yet our HC said last off-season that Carr was responsible for about a third of his own sacks. Go figure.

The thing is, we all know that the primary pass rush, the most effective pass rush comes off the edge of the DLine and not from its interior or inside. So I gotta question the wisdom of drafting a DT to be one of the main pass rushers. Distruptive, yea, but if one of your top sack guys is a DT. I dunno about that ? But then I've wondered if Okoye, with his quickness, might be see some time playing DE ?

Warren Sapp would disagree with you. Okoye has been compared to Sapp quite a bit, so if the comparisons hold true, he'll be a presence that must be accounted for, which will free up Mario and Weaver to make some plays from the outside.

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 12:19 PM
The REAL problem with the Texans as I see it, they are really don't have any strengths after 5 seasons.

To be honest .... I really liked Willis . I thought that he was a bigger Demeco and with him LB would become the strength of the team .

Since we drafted Okoye ... the DL should be our strength . If the DL is the strength then it makes the LBs and DBs better .

I think a darkhorse is Abatte ... a productive LB in a big conference . He could'nt run all out because of a hammy . Maybe LB will improve yet ( I know where does he play , Ryans is in the middle ) .

Porky
05-02-2007, 12:26 PM
To be honest .... I really liked Willis . I thought that he was a bigger Demeco and with him LB would become the strength of the team .

Since we drafted Okoye ... the DL should be our strength . If the DL is the strength then it makes the LBs and DBs better .

I think a darkhorse is Abatte ... a productive LB in a big conference . He could'nt run all out because of a hammy . Maybe LB will improve yet ( I know where does he play , Ryans is in the middle ) .


Abbate would backup Rayns at MLB, and play a lot on ST where he could potentially be a demon. In short, Troy Evans might want to consider life after football, or think about finding a new team.

HoustonFrog
05-02-2007, 12:27 PM
To be honest .... I really liked Willis . I thought that he was a bigger Demeco and with him LB would become the strength of the team .
Since we drafted Okoye ... the DL should be our strength . If the DL is the strength then it makes the LBs and DBs better .

I think a darkhorse is Abatte ... a productive LB in a big conference . He could'nt run all out because of a hammy . Maybe LB will improve yet ( I know where does he play , Ryans is in the middle ) .

I thought the same thing. You might as well have one of the strongest units out there. If not you give the defensive backfield help. that was my one big problem with this draft. I think Okoye is a great find at #10 but it isn't the direction I looked for. Just me though.

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 12:28 PM
Abbate would backup Rayns at MLB, and play a lot on ST where he could potentially be a demon. In short, Troy Evans might want to consider life after football, or think about finding a new team.

I think Troy is on the Saints now ... via free agency .

hadaad
05-02-2007, 12:28 PM
Warren Sapp would disagree with you. Okoye has been compared to Sapp quite a bit, so if the comparisons hold true, he'll be a presence that must be accounted for, which will free up Mario and Weaver to make some plays from the outside.

I think that Babin is going to have a monster year thanks to Okoye.

JMO.

Texans_Chick
05-02-2007, 12:33 PM
As it relates to the draft, Kubiak at the draft luncheon said that they did what they could do this year. That yeah, the Texans are looking at the long term answer at left tackle so they don't have to worry about it, but so are 31other teams in the league. That they believe in Charles Spencer and believe he can be back. But that they can't count on that so they got Jordan Black and have the other guys they can work with. But they were not going to reach in the draft for an offensive lineman, or overpay for a lineman in free agency just because he was the best guy available.

I did a write up on the draft on the TexansTalk.com main board--I don't know how to permalink the blogs to here, so that's where you can find it.

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 12:33 PM
Couple things.

The thing is, we all know that the primary pass rush, the most effective pass rush comes off the edge of the DLine and not from its interior or inside. So I gotta question the wisdom of drafting a DT to be one of the main pass rushers. Distruptive, yea, but if one of your top sack guys is a DT. I dunno about that ? But then I've wondered if Okoye, with his quickness, might be see some time playing DE ?

Henderson and Stroud could argue this point differently.

hadaad
05-02-2007, 12:34 PM
As it relates to the draft, Kubiak at the draft luncheon said that they did what they could do this year. That yeah, the Texans are looking at the long term answer at left tackle so they don't have to worry about it, but so are 31other teams in the league. That they believe in Charles Spencer and believe he can be back. But that they can't count on that so they got Jordan Black and have the other guys they can work with. But they were not going to reach in the draft for an offensive lineman, or overpay for a lineman in free agency just because he was the best guy available.

I did a write up on the draft on the TexansTalk.com main board--I don't know how to permalink the blogs to here, so that's where you can find it.

Thanks for that info. It's nice to hear that Black is the insurance and that Salaam isn't. I will admit I don't like Salaam but I can live with him as a swing tackle as long as he never has to play a down. :)

Texans_Chick
05-02-2007, 12:45 PM
Thanks for that info. It's nice to hear that Black is the insurance and that Salaam isn't. I will admit I don't like Salaam but I can live with him as a swing tackle as long as he never has to play a down. :)

Hmmm, he wasn't that explicit.

He basically said--hey we got the guys we got, we went and got another guy we thought could help, but there wasn't anyone else in FA or high up in the draft that made sense to get.

He did make a point that they weren't going to just go get guys just to get guys and overspend. (He didn't go..cough cough...Todd Wade...though he could have.)

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 12:57 PM
Seems to me like the sad fact is there just weren't many LT prospects to be had this offseason in FA or the draft.

I also think that Jordan Black isn't as bad as everyone thinks that he is. He didn't look great in their playoff game (which is what he's being judged on,) but look who he was up against.

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 01:02 PM
Hmmm, he wasn't that explicit.

He basically said--hey we got the guys we got, we went and got another guy we thought could help, but there wasn't anyone else in FA or high up in the draft that made sense to get.

He did make a point that they weren't going to just go get guys just to get guys and overspend. (He didn't go..cough cough...Todd Wade...though he could have.)

I remember him saying that he fully expected Spencer to be back and playing and that his rehab was going great. He even had some conviction in his voice when he said it.

I liked it when he said they were not going to go out and buy players.

On a side note, has anyone else noticed that when Rick and Kubes are together they are almost like one person? Meaning its not like here is the head coach and then here is our GM, but almost like they are friends sharing the responsibilities.

I never got that from Cass and Capers. Capers always seemed to have a "What did this butt-hole do to me this time?" look on his face. Maybe that is why Capers mouth is always open, he was in aw of Casserly's talent evaluations.

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 01:05 PM
Seems to me like the sad fact is there just weren't many LT prospects to be had this offseason in FA or the draft.

I also think that Jordan Black isn't as bad as everyone thinks that he is. He didn't look great in their playoff game (which is what he's being judged on,) but look who he was up against.

He can't be all that bad when KC names a stretch of highway after him. I heard it starts right after the Victor Riley entrance ramp.

Specnatz
05-02-2007, 01:05 PM
One thing that has not been talked about is how was the Guard play in KC? If the guard play is bad it also effects the tackle spot.

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 01:25 PM
FWIW .... the Great Blue North Draft Report has us taking Jake Long LT Michican in the 2008 NFL draft with the #9 pick overall . :fans:

real
05-02-2007, 01:30 PM
FWIW .... the Great Blue North Draft Report has us taking Jake Long LT Michican in the 2008 NFL draft with the #9 pick overall . :fans:

If we're picking in the top ten again next year, we'll have more to worry about than just a LT....

The1ApplePie
05-02-2007, 01:31 PM
OK lets make a list of shutdown corners .... Champ Bailey , Assante Samuel , Nate Clements who else ?

That's my point. DTs are a dime a dozen. In most systems, their only job is to be huge and get blocked, letting LBs make the plays. Finding true secondary monsters is a rareity.

If we were going D, I would have rather had Nelson, Hall, Revis, or Willis. Guys are more impact positions.

Pitcock, Thomas, and Mebane all went off the board in the 3rd, and there is not much of a step down in talent between them and Okoye.

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 01:42 PM
Actually I think you have to have balance . If I had to make a choice between Revis or Okoye ... I'll take Okoye because he can stop the run along with getting a pash rush .

Quick name the 85 Bears cornerbacks ...( Jeopardy music playing .... times up ).

This how the 90's Cowboys got away with Larry Brown at CB and who was their FS . They had Charles Haley , Leon Lett , Russell Maryland , Jeffcoat , and Hennings .

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 01:44 PM
That's my point. DTs are a dime a dozen. In most systems, their only job is to be huge and get blocked, letting LBs make the plays. Finding true secondary monsters is a rareity.

If we were going D, I would have rather had Nelson, Hall, Revis, or Willis. Guys are more impact positions.

Pitcock, Thomas, and Mebane all went off the board in the 3rd, and there is not much of a step down in talent between them and Okoye.

I wouldn't have called any of those guys shutdown corners.

If there was a shut down corner in this draft then he would have been a top 5 or top 10 pick. Kinda like Hall and Robinson was a few years back.

Our problem is we have never had a pass rush. No one has ever feared our defense. The record for single season sacks by any one player is 8, from 2002.

Errant Hothy
05-02-2007, 01:46 PM
This how the 90's Cowboys got away with Larry Brown at CB and who was their FS .

George Teague, I only know cause I've meet him several times andhe's a really good guy. He is also the oen who popped TO on the star.

hollywood_texan
05-02-2007, 01:57 PM
If we're picking in the top ten again next year, we'll have more to worry about than just a LT....

Exactly!

And the issue won't be Okoye, it will be the Schuab deal that people will be second guessing.

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 01:59 PM
George Teague, I only know cause I've meet him several times andhe's a really good guy. He is also the oen who popped TO on the star.

Brock Marion was the FS that they won Super Bowls with. I don't think Teague came along until later.

Errant Hothy
05-02-2007, 02:03 PM
Brock Marion was the FS that they won Super Bowls with. I don't think Teague came along until later.

Teague was drafted in 93, wasn't he?

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 02:06 PM
Teague was drafted in 93, wasn't he?

He started out with the Packers. He went to the Cowboys in 96. Maybe he went to the Super Bowl with Switzer.

hadaad
05-02-2007, 02:13 PM
Hmmm, he wasn't that explicit.

He basically said--hey we got the guys we got, we went and got another guy we thought could help, but there wasn't anyone else in FA or high up in the draft that made sense to get.

He did make a point that they weren't going to just go get guys just to get guys and overspend. (He didn't go..cough cough...Todd Wade...though he could have.)

That's okay. This was just another unsubtle attempt to get my anti-Salaam rhetoric out there.

Errant Hothy
05-02-2007, 02:17 PM
He started out with the Packers. He went to the Cowboys in 96. Maybe he went to the Super Bowl with Switzer.

Fair enough. My Cowboy knowledge is lacking...wonder why? :devilpig:

real
05-02-2007, 02:19 PM
That's my point. DTs are a dime a dozen. In most systems, their only job is to be huge and get blocked, letting LBs make the plays. Finding true secondary monsters is a rareity.

If we were going D, I would have rather had Nelson, Hall, Revis, or Willis. Guys are more impact positions.

Pitcock, Thomas, and Mebane all went off the board in the 3rd, and there is not much of a step down in talent between them and Okoye.

I think your logic is flawed. You're assuming both players are/will be of equal talent.

That's like saying you would have taken Ronde Barber over Warren Sapp. While Ronde is a damn good corner, I'd take Warren in his prime over him...but maybe that's just me....

And this is coming from one of the biggest proponents of "corners are the most important positions on defense", but that doesn't mean I'd do something as foolish as taking Nathan Vasher over Tommie Harris....

Double Barrel
05-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Seems to me like the sad fact is there just weren't many LT prospects to be had this offseason in FA or the draft.


Yep. Good offensive tackles and pass rushers are hard to find in FA. There is a reason why teams draft and hold on to them.

HOU-TEX
05-02-2007, 02:23 PM
Thanks for that info. It's nice to hear that Black is the insurance and that Salaam isn't. I will admit I don't like Salaam but I can live with him as a swing tackle as long as he never has to play a down. :)

Personally, I liked the way Salaam filled in. Sure he wasn't perfect, but how many backups are? It was said throughout the season that he was playing through injuries week in week out. What if he would've stayed down when Dayne ran his butt over tweeking his knee? Bedell?? The next play when Bedell took over the QB was sacked. IMO, I'd take him as a swing tackle over anyone else on the team. Intelligence and experience in the locker room as well as very good depth.:cool:

hadaad
05-02-2007, 02:25 PM
Personally, I liked the way Salaam filled in. Sure he wasn't perfect, but how many backups are? It was said throughout the season that he was playing through injuries week in week out. What if he would've stayed down when Dayne ran his butt over tweeking his knee? Bedell?? The next play when Bedell took over the QB was sacked. IMO, I'd take him as a swing tackle over anyone else on the team. Intelligence and experience in the locker room as well as very good depth.:cool:

I don't expect a backup to play perfectly, no. I'm just saying I don't want him starting. If he starts more than a couple of games this season, we're in trouble.
Intangibles are nice, though.

HOU-TEX
05-02-2007, 02:34 PM
I don't expect a backup to play perfectly, no. I'm just saying I don't want him starting. If he starts more than a couple of games this season, we're in trouble.
Intangibles are nice, though.

:confused: What do you mean you don't want him starting? Spencer went down for the season. There was no other choice than to start him. He wasn't meant to be a starter much like he won't be considered a starter this year. If he does then it'll be due to injury or horrible play by the starter. He's a backup, and a decent one at that.

hollywood_texan
05-02-2007, 02:36 PM
That's my point. DTs are a dime a dozen. In most systems, their only job is to be huge and get blocked, letting LBs make the plays. Finding true secondary monsters is a rareity.



The primary job of a DT in a 4-3 is to make other players' jobs easier.

A great DT is an unsung hero.

You are discounting the importance way too much!

Maybe Okoye isn't that type of player in your opinion, but that is a different discussion all together.

real
05-02-2007, 02:40 PM
I don't expect a backup to play perfectly, no. I'm just saying I don't want him starting. If he starts more than a couple of games this season, we're in trouble.
Intangibles are nice, though.

As of right now, despite what Kubiak or the depth chart says, Salaam is the best LT on our team....I know a lot of people don't like Salaam, and think he sucks terribly, but he has played pretty much the whole year...he knows our system...he's tough....and while he may not be a shut down type LT, he's adequate enough for the stage that we're at as a franchise...

Either way I'm not too worried because, despite popular belief, I think we have some good quality linemen...I definitely think we have a play-off line...

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 02:41 PM
That's my point. DTs are a dime a dozen. In most systems, their only job is to be huge and get blocked, letting LBs make the plays. Finding true secondary monsters is a rareity.



Speaking of the Cowboys and DT's, they picked Russell Maryland #1 overall in 1991. Seems to have worked out all right for them.

Gotta disagree about DT's being a dime a dozen.

Errant Hothy
05-02-2007, 02:43 PM
Good DT's are nowhere near a dime a dozen. Why do you think so many tend to go in the top half of the first round? A great DT is about as rare as a great QB.

real
05-02-2007, 02:45 PM
Speaking of the Cowboys and DT's, they picked Russell Maryland #1 overall in 1991. Seems to have worked out all right for them.

Gotta disagree about DT's being a dime a dozen.

Good DT's are nowhere near a dime a dozen. Why do you think so many tend to go in the top half of the first round? A great DT is about as rare as a great QB.

When he said "a dime a dozen" I think he was trying to say that there isn't much difference between the good ones and the ok ones...

I totally disagree with him, but I think that's what he meant...

nunusguy
05-02-2007, 03:06 PM
I also think that Jordan Black isn't as bad as everyone thinks that he is.
People lets not deceive ourselves into thinking Black is something that he's not. He is probably a mediorcre tackle at his best - on the right side. As far as being an effective LT, you don't get that in FA in this league with a 2-year,3.5 million dollar contract. Lets recognize what we have and accept it for that and not expect something more. In other words he might be a marginal upgrade over Salaam but still not = to the average NFL LT.
With Charles Spencer still being a huge ? mark, IMO our best hope for 2007 at LT is Eric Winston.

real
05-02-2007, 03:12 PM
I think Salaam is our best option at LT until someone proves they're better...

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 03:41 PM
People lets not deceive ourselves into thinking Black is something that he's not.

Sounds like you've broken down film on him. I'd love to hear more about it. :rolleyes:

I don't know that he'll be a decent LT any more than you don't know that he'll be a mediocre RT. All I said is that I don't think he's as bad as everyone around here says he is.

Texan_Bill
05-02-2007, 03:52 PM
I remember a link to KC's message boards whenever we signed black and they were really rough on the guy and laughed at us for taking him, with the offensive line woes that we already had.

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 03:54 PM
I remember a link to KC's message boards whenever we signed black and they were really rough on the guy and laughed at us for taking him, with the offensive line woes that we already had.


Same thing happened on Jacksonville's boards after we signed Salaam. He isn't the best thing going, but he isn't as bad as they said he is.

real
05-02-2007, 03:57 PM
Same thing happened on Jacksonville's boards after we signed Salaam. He isn't the best thing going, but he isn't as bad as they said he is.

Same thing happens with every player. If someone from Carolina were to visit one of our boards they'd probably leave with the impression that Davud was the worst QB on earth....But in actuality, if put in the right situation David can probably be decent...

It's not unusual for fans excessively rip players when they leave...

Specnatz
05-02-2007, 03:58 PM
Same thing happened on Jacksonville's boards after we signed Salaam. He isn't the best thing going, but he isn't as bad as they said he is.

I think it has a lot to do with the guys they play next to and how the coaching staf schemes things to hide a weakness or schemes to exploit a strength.

HoustonFrog
05-02-2007, 04:08 PM
Brock Marion was the FS that they won Super Bowls with. I don't think Teague came along until later.


Actually James Washington was their safety and should have been MVP of the SB in the second Bills beat down. And was he and Thomas Everett at one point. Woodson and Marion were there also.

Mr. White
05-02-2007, 04:09 PM
Same thing happens with every player. If someone from Carolina were to visit one of our boards they'd probably leave with the impression that Davud was the worst QB on earth....But in actuality, if put in the right situation David can probably be decent...

It's not unusual for fans excessively rip players when they leave...

Not at all.

I guess my point here is that nobody here knew anything about Jordan Black until he met with the Texans. They still don't. But they act like they do. The perception of him being a turnstile came from one game against the Colts when their defense finally showed up in their own stadium.

Runner
05-02-2007, 06:21 PM
Bob here is doing the same thing they are doing. Complaining to complain.

I'm not complaining to complain. I have legitimate concerns about the o-line.

If someone had said at the start of last season that the only change they'd make to the line this year was to replace Spencer with Jordan Black, would you have said, "Great, the line is looking better!"?

We are building up a lot of expectations around Schaub being QB and fixing everything. I hope he's not a hated man by the end of the season.

These coaches are limited in what they can do, I understand that. It would have been interesting if Levi was available at 10 and to have seen the pick. He wasn't. They couldn't afford a big free agent tackle and/or center. However, just because they couldn't find a way to upgrade the line with available resources doesn't mean they didn't need to.


---------------------------

Oops - I didn't see this before I posted the above. It says some of the same things.

As it relates to the draft, Kubiak at the draft luncheon said that they did what they could do this year. That yeah, the Texans are looking at the long term answer at left tackle so they don't have to worry about it, but so are 31other teams in the league. That they believe in Charles Spencer and believe he can be back. But that they can't count on that so they got Jordan Black and have the other guys they can work with. But they were not going to reach in the draft for an offensive lineman, or overpay for a lineman in free agency just because he was the best guy available.



Oops - I didn't see this before I posted the above. It says some of the same things.

Runner
05-02-2007, 06:25 PM
See, I think just the opposite. I like a HC who says I know one side best so I will put more talent on the other side and do my coaching magic where I am an expert. Look at what Jimmy Johnson did or at how Dungy consistently makes do with less money and stars on the D. Capers violated the pooch by doing the opposite and over controlling the O and ignoring Fangio not running the D the way he would have.


Good point, but there are probably examples both ways. Walsh with the 49er's offense for instance.

There are a lot of variables about how a team evolves; budget, player availability, and luck play a big role too.

Runner
05-02-2007, 06:33 PM
He did make a point that they weren't going to just go get guys just to get guys and overspend. (He didn't go..cough cough...Todd Wade...though he could have.)


But TC! With Schaub here Wade would be Pro-Bowler!

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 06:53 PM
But TC! With Schaub here Wade would be Pro-Bowler!

Saying Carr failed because the OL is way to simple .

Saying the OL stinks because of Carr is to easy .

Saying Carr was'nt the kind of player to lead an expansion team and the Texans tried to build an OL is true ( Boselli , Young , Pitts , Mckinney , and Weary ) .

I think there is a lot of missing locker room info about the simplistic offense , no audibles , locking on to a reciever , and the lack of leadership stuff that will never be answered .

We've been through over a dozen different OL ... now we're trying our 2nd starting QB ... I guess it won't take long to figure this one out .

texasguy346
05-02-2007, 07:06 PM
I'm blown away. What he said is unexcusable. It's just way out of line, and I won't tolerate it.






How could he say Scarface was a bad movie?

Honoring Earl 34
05-02-2007, 07:15 PM
I'm blown away. What he said is unexcusable. It's just way out of line, and I won't tolerate it.






How could he say Scarface was a bad movie?

He hates on Al Pacino .

Specnatz
05-02-2007, 08:06 PM
I'm not complaining to complain. I have legitimate concerns about the o-line.

If someone had said at the start of last season that the only change they'd make to the line this year was to replace Spencer with Jordan Black, would you have said, "Great, the line is looking better!"?

We are building up a lot of expectations around Schaub being QB and fixing everything. I hope he's not a hated man by the end of the season.

These coaches are limited in what they can do, I understand that. It would have been interesting if Levi was available at 10 and to have seen the pick. He wasn't. They couldn't afford a big free agent tackle and/or center. However, just because they couldn't find a way to upgrade the line with available resources doesn't mean they didn't need to.



I was one of the guys who was wanting Brown big time. This is what I have been mentioning about guys like Kiper and such blasting the Texans for not taking a lineman. Mark Schelerth, a 10th round pick, blasted the Texans this year for not taking a lineman. so when exactly were they going to do that in this draft? Besides when they did. Kiper blasted the Texans about not taking an OL and a DB, but I looked at our drafts and it looks like we did, just not in the round he thought we should. If you are going to crittique someone at least do it while also knowing the players who were available when that team drafted.

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 08:41 PM
I'm blown away. What he said is unexcusable. It's just way out of line, and I won't tolerate it.






How could he say Scarface was a bad movie?

There are two things I am flabbergasted about:

1st being how on earth does a QB who is no longer on the team high jack a thread about DT's?

2nd thing is how anyone could think scarface was a good movie? Seriously. Are there a shortage of Cubans in the US? I find it hard to believe the only actor available to play a Cuban was a spray on tan Italian with a terrible Cuban accent. Not to mention his "He's covering up my thumb!" acting. (Over the Top reference for those who didn't get it.)

I don't know who's accent was worse, Al in scarface or Adam Sandler in the Water boy.

Mama said that Scarface is the Devil.

Double Barrel
05-02-2007, 08:48 PM
There are two things I am flabbergasted about:

1st being how on earth does a QB who is no longer on the team high jack a thread about DT's?

You do realize that you were one of the hijackers, 'eh? :shades:

The article was about the Texans drafting a defensive lineman when the perception of many is that we should have used the pick on our o-line.

From there a discussion ensues about our o-line, which morphs into a "was it the line or QB" chat. This season should answer at least some of those questions (I hope).

2nd thing is how anyone could think scarface was a good movie? Seriously. Are there a shortage of Cubans in the US? I find it hard to believe the only actor available to play a Cuban was a spray on tan Italian with a terrible Cuban accent. Not to mention his "He's covering up my thumb!" acting. (Over the Top reference for those who didn't get it.)

I don't know who's accent was worse, Al in scarface or Adam Sandler in the Water boy.

Mama said that Scarface is the Devil.

heh, that's funny. I liked the movie, but I can understand the critics.

SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND
http://www.fischkopp.ch/images/film_scarface.jpg

Runner
05-02-2007, 08:59 PM
Sounds like you've broken down film on him. I'd love to hear more about it. :rolleyes:

I don't know that he'll be a decent LT any more than you don't know that he'll be a mediocre RT. All I said is that I don't think he's as bad as everyone around here says he is.

So, does eveyone have to "break down film" on any player to have an opinion? If so, this board is going to be very quiet.

I specifically watched Black play last year when I could because a buddy of mine suggested I do so. I didn't DVR it and break it down, but I formed an opinion. Good back-up means just that - OK for spot duty, I wouldn't want him playing game after game as the starter.

TEXANRED
05-02-2007, 09:00 PM
You do realize that you were one of the hijackers, 'eh? :shades:

The article was about the Texans drafting a defensive lineman when the perception of many is that we should have used the pick on our o-line.

From there a discussion ensues about our o-line, which morphs into a "was it the line or QB" chat. This season should answer at least some of those questions (I hope).





I see it as less of a Hijacking <===that word is hilarious by the way, and more of a victim on the street who is filling out an eyewitness report.

Besides, I didn't say he who's name must not be spoken.


I can't really say that I am much of a movie critic though. I think Kurt Russell is one of the greatest action movie stars over the last 20 plus years.

Big trouble in little China
Tango and Cash
Escape from NY
Escape from LA

Still haven't gotten to see Grind House. Heard it was good.

Runner
05-02-2007, 09:03 PM
Same thing happens with every player. If someone from Carolina were to visit one of our boards they'd probably leave with the impression that Davud was the worst QB on earth....But in actuality, if put in the right situation David can probably be decent...

It's not unusual for fans excessively rip players when they leave...

The inverse happens too - a player looks much better to the fans of the team that just signed him.

It's not unusual for fans to excessively praise players when they come in ... that is what makes those same fans crash from unrealstic expectations to reality so hard in some cases.

That's fandom.

Double Barrel
05-02-2007, 11:17 PM
There are definitely different schools of thought. The "right" one, of course, is that which is proven to win games. Something that worked there may not work here. Players that are marginal here go to be a part of a successful team there. So many factors influence single players. Of course, the greats are great, but they are only legendary when playing on a great team. And there are marginal players with rings (Dilfer) and HoF legends without (Marino). So it is seeing shades of gray that I approach analyzing players, and I try to take a big picture perspective that considers all angles.

My attitude about our HC's philosophy is one of cautious optimism. Cautious because it hasn't been proven a success, yet. Optimist because I have no say in the matter and it's a choice of perspective.

With regards to Kubiak's attitude about defense, I agree with the approach of building a dominant unit that can consistently prevent the other team from scoring. It takes the pressure off of the offense and offensive special teams, and we have a greater chance of success with this approach (especially in a conference with Indy).

And a big part of a dominant defense is the line. If the run is consistently stopped, the offense becomes one dimensional. With constant pressure on the QB, pressure is relieved from coverage and the offense is more likely to make mistakes. I see so much potential with the components that we're building, and really hope to see a defense that crushes opponents. Nothing is more satisfying to this fanatic. And with that in mind, I have no problem in welcoming Amobi Akoye into our team.

Texans_Chick
05-03-2007, 08:30 AM
I think it is rational and sane to have concerns over the Texans offensive line.

Why? Because it hasn't had much of a track record of success over the course of a season with run and pass blocking. It is not a line that many teams would trade for. Now there are lots of reasons for that--some might be talent, experience, bad luck related and some have nothing to do with the line's responsibility. There is hope that having a quarterback with better pocket presence and ability to read Ds, and an experienced running back that prides himself in blocking will help the line out as well.

I think it is also rational and sane to not kill the Texans for not doing more in the offseason to improve the talent on the line. This was not a year under free agency and the draft that the Texans were likely going to get an offensive line stud--due to salary cap considerations and who was available.

I still have concerns with the way the line is coached until I see that line performing. The bios of the guys coaching the line talk about how good they did despite injuries. Yeah whatever--these are the same guys who kept McKinney on the bench until the Hodgdon experiment was so not working.

Though I think Carr was responsible for some of the stuff relating to how the line looked, I also think it is a mistake to think Carr goes away therefore everything is sunshine and roses on the line. Nobody knows.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2007, 09:18 AM
OK ... I agree about Carr not being the whole problem but if you can improve the line by 15% by changing the QB ... you do it .

The worst thing you can do is what we've already done and over spend on average talent ( Todd Wade ). There is not going to be a top notch FA LT ... why because they're hard to find .

So I guess with Thomas and Brown off the board we should have taken Staley at #10 . Even if Okoye was ranked an 8.5 and Staley a 7.0 we panic and draft a lesser player .

Trade down and get Staley ... I guess there was no good deals .

real
05-03-2007, 09:19 AM
IMHO, Carr was the main problem with our line...I know there are many that disagree, and while I don't think our line is as good as it needs to be, I don't really think it has a lot to do with the talent...I believe a lot of factors played into our OL woes...Coaching, injuries, non-cohesiveness, and a QB with bad pocket presence and timing...

While I don't think we have any GREAT individual offensive linemen, I do believe that we have linemen good enough to fit into a scheme...I think when we compare our line to teams like Baltimore, NE, SD, Chi, or even Seattle what we don't also factor in is that a lot of those teams with dominant individual linemen run a completely different scheme....

I'm not saying that we can get by with complete scrubs, but I am saying that different schemes suit different types of players and our scheme, IMO, just happens to be a scheme where you don't neccessarily need a group of high end O-linemen...We basically really need guys who can move their feet, think, and have adequate strength...Whether you realize it or not a linemans job in a ZBS is relatively easy...It's not really a system where you need 5 brutes up front blowing the opposing D-line 3 yards off the ball...The RB is the one that has the hard job of quickly finding a lane because the linemen are taught that you basically just take the defender where he wants to go, and the RB needs to find the hole and get through it...And in the passing game there are a lot of designed rollouts, and boots and PA....

Our scheme is basically designed to take pressure off of the line...Again, I'm not saying that we can just take any scrub off of the street and make him a beast, but I am saying that we don't neccessarily need individually dominant guys...

And another thing is that just because a guy did poorly in one system doesn't mean he'll struggle in ours and vice versa...Otherwise all those late round draft picks that Denver uses on O-line would never work out...

JMO

Marcus
05-03-2007, 09:26 AM
One shut down corner can do more for a Defense than 4 D-Linemen. Not sure if Revis or Hall were shutdown corners.

Broncos: Horrible D-Linemen, great CB. They had no pass rush, and did pretty well. A guy that can make half the field a non factor trumps a pass rush.

So what if we have a pass rush? Who is going to cover anyone besides D-Rob?

Getting a "shutdown corner" and using him to make up for the lack of a pass rush, is like putting a band-aid on an infected sore. All you're doing is covering up what the real problem is. And eventually, if nothing is done to take care of that sore, that high priced band-aid is going to wear out.

I don't think the secondary is all that bad. Yes, it could be improved, but at the same time, I don't think it's been "neglected" as some would infer. With a 4-3 defense, the four down linemen shoud be able to demonstrate the ability to put pressure on a QB . . . not all the time, not even most of the time . . just every once in awhile . . to prove to the opposition that they can do it. But this team, so far . . . cannot do that . . at any time, without the use of the blitz to make up for it.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about sacks. Big picture wise, I could care less how many sacks we get. I'm talking about disruption, by the front four ALONE. If we could ever get to point to where we could do this . . just every once in a great while . . . it would make the opposing offensive scheme a lot more difficult to carry out. It would cut down on their options. They would make more mistakes. It would make it more easier to get interceptions. It would make more easier for the secondary to play the ball, and get out of the riskier man coverage.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2007, 09:28 AM
It does'nt add up that every OL that we've brought in since 2002 stinks . A blind Casserly will find a few acorns .

I'm tired of talking ex QB stuff but I will say this ... in a couple of months we'll know if it's the chicken or the egg . My thinking is we'll look like a much better team on offense . It's more than blocking it's execution , unity , smarts , and raising the bar on what's excepted .

Texans_Chick
05-03-2007, 09:49 AM
OK ... I agree about Carr not being the whole problem but if you can improve the line by 15% by changing the QB ... you do it .

The worst thing you can do is what we've already done and over spend on average talent ( Todd Wade ). There is not going to be a top notch FA LT ... why because they're hard to find .

So I guess with Thomas and Brown off the board we should have taken Staley at #10 . Even if Okoye was ranked an 8.5 and Staley a 7.0 we panic and draft a lesser player .

Trade down and get Staley ... I guess there was no good deals .


I believe they brought Staley in for a visit.

The Texans claim that Okoye was the #1 defensive player on their draft board. He was available at 10. So I am guessing they didn't believe trading down was worth passing on Okoye.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2007, 10:12 AM
If Staley started at LSU , he might have been a top 10 pick .

I think the Texans felt that they had to hit at 10 and Okoye was the safe pick . I also think that if Okoye is the real deal the DL then we'll have to think of a nickname four our DL .

OK ... hmmm ... The Fearsome Foursome has been used , Steel Curtain used ... Battle Red bullies , Stampede , I don't know .

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2007, 11:21 AM
The original Hogs were starting tackles Joe Jacoby and George Starke, guards Russ Grimm and Mark May, center Jeff Bostic, and tight ends Don Warren and Rick Walker.

Starke (1973-1984) was the senior member of the squad, having joined Washington in 1972.The rest of the Hogs were relatively new to the team. Bostic (1980-1993) was signed as a long snapper in 1980 after being cut by the Eagles, but was starting at center by the beginning of the 1981 season. He was joined in 1981by two rookie guards, May (1981-1989) and Grimm (1981-1991). Both May and Grimm were drafted out of Pittsburgh in the 1st and 3rd round respectively (20th & 69th overall).

The final piece of the puzzle, the biggest piece, joined the Redskins that same famed 1981 training camp. A giant rookie free agent from Louisville named Joe Jacoby (1982-1993) walked into Coach Gibbs office looking for a job. Figuring Jacoby was a defensive tackle because of his massive size (6'7", 300 lbs), Gibbs told Joe that he'd give him a chance.

''I was scared and frightened because I didn't know what to expect,'' Jacoby remembers about that first meeting. ''So I didn't want to correct him.''

The rest is history. These five men formed the core of the Hogs. In fact, over the next two seasons, 1982 and 1983, Jacoby, Starke, Grimm, May and Bostic would miss a combined total of just ONE game. They hung out together, they ate together, Grimm and Jacoby even roomed together for a few years. More importantly, they became a powerful, cohesive unit that provided big holes for John Riggins and pass protection for Joe Theismann. Riggins campaigned to be a Hog, as did Theismann. "No quarterbacks," said Starke. The Hogs loved John though and he was admitted as 'Honorary Hog'.

Riggins and his fellow Hogs increased their tightness as members of the 5 O'Clock Club started by Vince Lombardi in 1969. The group met after practice in an old tool shed at Redskin Park. It had no plumbing, no electricity. There was a kerosene heater over which Riggo would sometimes warm cans of pork and beans. The delicate fare was normally washed down with frothy beverages.

"A lot of problems were solved out there," Grimm remembers with a chuckle.

That kind of cohesiveness was important on what became one of their signature plays, the Counter Trey. Bostic, May and Starke would block down or to the left. Grimm and Jacoby would pull and come around the right side. The running back would take a step to the left and then take the handoff going right, and it worked many times, to the dismay of opponents.

In fact, it was that developed cohesiveness that allowed Bugel and head coach Joe Gibbs to develop a punishing ball control offense. The hogs would smash huge holes in the defense and Riggins would run through them.

The 1983 playoffs was when the Hogs began to show their brilliance. Riggins ran the ball 37 times for 185 yards against Minnesota, 36 times for 140 yards against Dallas in the NFC Championship game, and 38 times for 166 yards against Miami in Super Bowl XVII. An incredible 610 yards in four games to capture the franchises first Super Bowl.

Although Riggins' performances were spectacular, the Redskins' offensive line were the ones controlling the trenches. The Hogs paved the way for Joe Gibbs to turn his clock-eating, ball-driving offense into the first of three Super Bowls in less than a decade.

The Hogs kept paving highways through defensive lines in 1984 and rolled easily into Super Bowl XVIII before being upset by the Raiders 38-9.

http://www.thehogs.net/html/Hogs/history.php

HoustonFrog
05-03-2007, 11:36 AM
If Staley started at LSU , he might have been a top 10 pick .

I think the Texans felt that they had to hit at 10 and Okoye was the safe pick . I also think that if Okoye is the real deal the DL then we'll have to think of a nickname four our DL .

OK ... hmmm ... The Fearsome Foursome has been used , Steel Curtain used ... Battle Red bullies , Stampede , I don't know .

I like Stampede. Terrible Toros. Bull Whip.

Double Barrel
05-03-2007, 11:40 AM
The original Hogs were starting tackles Joe Jacoby and George Starke, guards Russ Grimm and Mark May, center Jeff Bostic, and tight ends Don Warren and Rick Walker.

I was a fan of the Redskins during the early/mid 1980's because the Oilers sucked (I was still a fan, but local blackouts kept me from seeing them every week). The Redskins were division rivals of the Cowboys, who I hated, and they were an awesome team. I really enjoyed the 1986 season, when the won the championship (I had my first Super Bowl party this year during my freshman year of college).

Good stuff to read about the Hogs. :thumbup

Runner
05-03-2007, 03:32 PM
It does'nt add up that every OL that we've brought in since 2002 stinks . A blind Casserly will find a few acorns .

I'm tired of talking ex QB stuff but I will say this ... in a couple of months we'll know if it's the chicken or the egg . My thinking is we'll look like a much better team on offense . It's more than blocking it's execution , unity , smarts , and raising the bar on what's excepted .

I'm also not discounting coaching. The previous regime was woefully inadequate with offensive line coaches. If Sherman and Kubiak can improve the individual skills of the players AND continue to improve the schemes, that could make as much difference as the change in QBs.

Runner
05-03-2007, 03:38 PM
i think everybody can agree that last years line was better than previous years. i can only attribute that to better coaching. why wouldn't they be even better this year? ...

I don't agree. Much of the line's success in pass protection last year was due to the number of quick passes, like two yard slants, that were thrown.

2004 was our best line. They ran block well, and they pass protected in an offense that still featured five and seven step drops. Yes they gave up more sacks, but the passing offense was much, much better. Sacks are an isolated stat; the total look of the offense gives a better picture of the line's performance.

Honoring Earl 34
05-03-2007, 03:45 PM
They even alternated the LT depending on if it was a pass or run .

Runner
05-03-2007, 03:51 PM
They even alternated the LT depending on if it was a pass or run .

That time in 2004? Yep - they did for one game. Even Pendry figured out that wasn't the best idea he ever had and didn't try it again. That was just, um, unusual.

badboy
05-03-2007, 04:11 PM
Same thing happens with every player. If someone from Carolina were to visit one of our boards they'd probably leave with the impression that Davud was the worst QB on earth....But in actuality, if put in the right situation David can probably be decent...

It's not unusual for fans excessively rip players when they leave...
My ex wives ripped me. I know what you mean.

hadaad
05-03-2007, 05:24 PM
That time in 2004? Yep - they did for one game. Even Pendry figured out that wasn't the best idea he ever had and didn't try it again. That was just, um, unusual.

You mean they actually did that? A professional team?

Oh goodness.

Ah well... on to better things!