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real
06-18-2007, 08:59 AM
The way I see it you can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the performance of 2 QB's. That isn't the same thing as the difference between the 2 QB's themselves because every QB's perfomance, and for that matter each players peformance, is dependent on the play of everyone else.

So how in hades do you come to the determination that is was moreso on the O-line rather than David Carr? If you have trouble looking at a game and being able to tell which players are good and which ones aren't because "each players performance is dependent on the play of everyone else" how can you come to a sound conclusion on anyone ?

For one, I don't agree with that line of thinking. I think it's fairly easy to look at players and tell if they're good or not. I don't care if you have the last ranked O-line in the leauge (which we didn't) 2 td's over the last 10 games is out of line. The fact that we won the Oakland game while David Carr amassed a whopping -5 passing yards says a lot about the play of "others around him".

Good players look good, and bad ones look bad. It's that simple. David Carr didn't have the best protection in the world, but there was enough protection for an NFL starting QB to atleast have us in games and not costing them. Sacks aren't always on the O-line; recievers need to run good routes and get open, O-line needs to block, RB's need to block when needed, QB needs to have pocket presence and be able to make pre-snap reads. If David had any inclination to greatness wouldn't you be able to see signs of it ? Where are the positives of David past his 'measurables'...past his college stats ? What positives can you give about the guy's play ?

It will be very interesting to see Schuab behind center because honestly I think a lot of fans perception of our O-line will change a little bit.

Honoring Earl 34
06-18-2007, 09:05 AM
In the second game against the Colts Kubiak said he told Carr that he was'nt going to have much time . Carr responded by holding the ball at hip level , waiting until he got popped in the back forcing a fumble . That's an example of bad mechanics and no feel .

I see the line being average on their best day . I also think they did'nt believe in their QB ... they did'nt have that feeling if I can hold my guy , he'll make a play mentality .

I think that any team that watched film knew two things , he locked unto his recievers and he will not burn a defense on a blitz . So why not blitz and blitz again .

Some say it's coaching but I have to feel he was coached down for a reason . Pendry was good enough to get the Panthers to the NFC title game and Palmer was good enough to be hired by Parcells after he left the Texans .

Mckinney , Pitts , Weary , Wand , Wade , Wiegert , Flannigan , Hodgon , Spencer , Winston , Brown , Spears , and whoever . We must have cornered the market for sorry offensive linemen . We tried all these guys but never benched the QB to see if it was the chicken or the egg .

Honoring Earl 34
06-18-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm done with the Carr talk ... he's not on the Texans and we'll find out soon enough how much of the problem he was . :fans:

PitBull
06-18-2007, 10:06 AM
he's not on the Texans and we'll find out soon enough how much of the problem he was..

His results will depend on how fast his confidence is built. 40+ sacks per year should cause permenant fear of being hit to any QB. Heck if Peyton was smacked down as much he'd be constantly watching his back after every snap.

I'm guessing Carolina will try to play Carr as much as possible during pre-season to help build back his confidence and trust in a new o-line.

The Pencil Neck
06-18-2007, 10:14 AM
The way I see it you can look at a game and easily tell the difference between the performance of 2 QB's. That isn't the same thing as the difference between the 2 QB's themselves because every QB's perfomance, and for that matter each players peformance, is dependent on the play of everyone else. That is what makes it so difficult to compare players, but that being said it can be done to a certain degree. I really don't think that you realize that even though in my opinion the Texans O-line is terrible I still concede that David Carr still could have played better than he did, but short of some miracle the Texans were never going to be competitive with the way that their O-line played.

Now, as for analysis, I'm sorry, but I really don't have the time or the film to do the thorough analysis that you desire to hear from me. I really wish I could, but I fear it still wouldn't dissuade your opinion on the matter, which would make it all the more frustrating because it would mean I had wasted my time.

I arrive at my opinion that the Texans O-line is bad from watching the games, and nothing more. I provided the opinion of other people that are in the sports media only to support my opinion, not to form it, as you have implied.

I've been pretty much staying out of this. I don't normally go for the rivalry talk threads but...

When a normal fan is watching a game, they see what the network shows of the plays being run. They don't really see everything.

To really be able to judge someone, you have to know what they were supposed to do and what they actually did and what they could have done. We fans do not know what plays were called, what reads should have been performed. We don't have the film showing us who was open. We don't know what call should have been made and which lineman should have done what on a particular play.

Only the coaches and the players really know.

It's my belief that Kubiak saw old film on Carr and saw him making obvious and easily correctible mistakes. I think that Kubiak figured that he could teach David to stop making those mistakes. But when he got here and started working with him, Carr continued to make the same mistakes in game situations. I think Carr looked fine in practice but when the bullets were flying, I think he went back to doing things "wrong". I base this on several comments Kubiak made during the season.

I think that Kubiak looked at our game film and knowing what he knows about what plays were called and what was available, came to the conclusion that Carr was a much bigger problem than the offensive line.

On a slightly different issue, he said several times during the season (at least early in the season) that our running backs weren't seeing the right cutbacks and were not picking up the yardage that they should.

I think that's why we didn't see a wholesale revamping of our offensive line. I mean, think about it. At the cost that we paid for Schaub, we could have made some major changes in our offensive line. There were a lot of trades and draft picks that we could have made if Kubiak had identified that as our primary malfunction. I don't think that Kubiak is dumb enough to have a horrible offensive line and try to hide it by bringing in better skill players.

real
06-18-2007, 10:28 AM
I don't think Kubiak ever believed Carr to be a good QB, capable of taking this team to the next level....

I think the reason that Kubiak left Carr in even when it was evident that we played better with Sage, was because he wanted to showcase what Carr could do and he did nothing...

I think the main person that needed to be convinced David was not the QB for us was Mr. Mcnair...By leaving David in and putting pressure on him it showed his inability to respond...

No more questions about it; he isn't that good...time to move on...

real
06-18-2007, 10:45 AM
When a normal fan is watching a game, they see what the network shows of the plays being run. They don't really see everything.

To really be able to judge someone, you have to know what they were supposed to do and what they actually did and what they could have done. We fans do not know what plays were called, what reads should have been performed. We don't have the film showing us who was open. We don't know what call should have been made and which lineman should have done what on a particular play.

I disagree with this...

It's like your saying that your opinion doesn't matter because you can't really judge the players anyways...Only the coaches can...

I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...

It's true that as a fan you can't make as informed an opinion as the coaches can, but there have been many many posters on this board who have been able to look at players and make determinations about there ability....some I agree with, some I don't; but that doesn't change the fact that they are basing there opinions from their knowledge of the game, and the same live action or bradcast as the rest of us....

Texan_Bill
06-18-2007, 10:53 AM
I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...


But when your D gives up back to back 83 yard bombs, its pretty easy to summize that your D sucks...in that summation:
D-line - no pressure,
Petey Faggins - not a shut-down corner (better suited to be a nickel)
Safety/ Free Safety - sorely need to be upgraded.

Bottom line - the D sucked (to that point of the season - but we all know they did improve in the second half of the season).

real
06-18-2007, 11:05 AM
But when your D gives up back to back 83 yard bombs, its pretty easy to summize that your D sucks...in that summation:
D-line - no pressure,
Petey Faggins - not a shut-down corner (better suited to be a nickel)
Safety/ Free Safety - sorely need to be upgraded.

Bottom line - the D sucked (to that point of the season - but we all know they did improve in the second half of the season).

I agree with this...

I was just talking about specific positions though...

Petey definitely isn't the best in the business, but the play calling and lack of pressure can probably shelve a little of the blame as well...

Overall they were just a poor unit as a whole to start things off...but that probably had a lot to do with lack of cohesiveness, and learning a new system; and that goes for the coaches as well as the players...

The Pencil Neck
06-18-2007, 12:22 PM
I disagree with this...

It's like your saying that your opinion doesn't matter because you can't really judge the players anyways...Only the coaches can...

I think some positions are harder to judge than others, like DT or O-line...And I think there are a lot of misconceptions about some positions...like seeing a guy catch an 83 yard bomb and assuming the cb's suck or seeing the QB getting sacked and assuming the line sucks...

It's true that as a fan you can't make as informed an opinion as the coaches can, but there have been many many posters on this board who have been able to look at players and make determinations about there ability....some I agree with, some I don't; but that doesn't change the fact that they are basing there opinions from their knowledge of the game, and the same live action or bradcast as the rest of us....

Dude. Our opinions don't matter at all. But I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying because you're saying the same thing I am.

We fans can make judgments but they're based on incomplete information. This past season what I saw led me to believe that our line wasn't the problem with our offense. From where I sitting, I saw bad play from our QB. This doesn't mean that our o-line was great but I felt that our QB was making all phases of our team look worse.

BattleRedToro watched the same games and came to a different conclusion. He concluded that the o-line was the problem with both Carr's performance and with our running game.

I'm saying that only the coaches can definitively identify who's at fault. If they're good, they should be able to. They know who was where, what they did, and what they should have done. I think our coaches are good enough to know what the problems were last year and I think you can tell just by the moves they made what they thought those problems were.

real
06-18-2007, 12:24 PM
I completely disagree, but I'll leave it alone.

Blazing Arrow
06-18-2007, 12:40 PM
And around turn 14 Young has a commanding lead ....

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u13/BlazingArrow24/horserace.jpg

The Pencil Neck
06-18-2007, 12:51 PM
I completely disagree, but I'll leave it alone.

I'm going to assume that this was directed at my post.

I don't understand. What are you completely disagreeing with? You said exactly the same thing I did for almost every single point.

The only thing I see different is that you made the statement that our opinions are important and I think our opinions are just so much hot air.

Specnatz
06-18-2007, 01:18 PM
And around turn 14 Young has a commanding lead ....

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u13/BlazingArrow24/horserace.jpg

I always thought young looked like a horse, and now we know why he throws like one.

Blazing Arrow
06-18-2007, 01:29 PM
I always thought young looked like a horse, and now we know why he throws like one.

Actually when questioned the Texans players all seemed unable to describe what Young looked like. Most described a blur going past them and the #10 on a jersey slowly fades away as it pulled to far ahead for the pursuers to see.

Texan_Bill
06-18-2007, 02:27 PM
Actually when questioned the Texans players all seemed unable to describe what Young looked like. Most described a blur going past them and the #10 on a jersey slowly fades away as it pulled to far ahead for the pursuers to see.

Good running backs will do that from time to time...

BattleRedToro
06-18-2007, 06:45 PM
So how in hades do you come to the determination that is was moreso on the O-line rather than David Carr? If you have trouble looking at a game and being able to tell which players are good and which ones aren't because "each players performance is dependent on the play of everyone else" how can you come to a sound conclusion on anyone ?

For one, I don't agree with that line of thinking. I think it's fairly easy to look at players and tell if they're good or not. I don't care if you have the last ranked O-line in the leauge (which we didn't) 2 td's over the last 10 games is out of line. The fact that we won the Oakland game while David Carr amassed a whopping -5 passing yards says a lot about the play of "others around him".

Good players look good, and bad ones look bad. It's that simple. David Carr didn't have the best protection in the world, but there was enough protection for an NFL starting QB to atleast have us in games and not costing them. Sacks aren't always on the O-line; recievers need to run good routes and get open, O-line needs to block, RB's need to block when needed, QB needs to have pocket presence and be able to make pre-snap reads. If David had any inclination to greatness wouldn't you be able to see signs of it ? Where are the positives of David past his 'measurables'...past his college stats ? What positives can you give about the guy's play ?

It will be very interesting to see Schuab behind center because honestly I think a lot of fans perception of our O-line will change a little bit.

I thin you misunderstood me, again. Maybe this analogy will help you to understand my point. Drop a pepple into a large bucket of water with some bobbers floating in it and see what happens. The pepple is the O-Line. They are the primary cause of action on the offense. As the water ripples farther and farther out you get to each of the other positions contribution to the motion of the water, which is now influenced by the O-line's action. It is still possible to see the inputs of the other positions provided that the input of the O-line is not so great, a boulder instead of a pebble, as to push the floats out of the bucket, thereby making their effects impossible to read. xtruroyaltyx, you and just don't agree on who has the primary influence on a plays development. I say it is the O-line and you say it is the QB. That is where we disagree and I accept that we will never agree on that.

Now, keep in mind that Matt Schaub's O-line may very well be different as the Texans have added many new faces to their pool of O-linemen to make an O-line from. Just changing one O-linemen can sometimes have a huge effect, and it is possible that the starting O-line will have more changes to it than just one player.

HJam72
06-18-2007, 06:53 PM
I just want to point out that I think it was both. You guys probably agree with that (I guess), but it's just who's more at fault that is getting argued.

After that, I'll leave it alone, because nothing can be proven in the offseason anyway. We need some new information (games) to bring to these arguments.

BattleRedToro
06-18-2007, 06:54 PM
Dude. Our opinions don't matter at all. But I think you're misinterpreting what I was saying because you're saying the same thing I am.

We fans can make judgments but they're based on incomplete information. This past season what I saw led me to believe that our line wasn't the problem with our offense. From where I sitting, I saw bad play from our QB. This doesn't mean that our o-line was great but I felt that our QB was making all phases of our team look worse.

BattleRedToro watched the same games and came to a different conclusion. He concluded that the o-line was the problem with both Carr's performance and with our running game.
I'm saying that only the coaches can definitively identify who's at fault. If they're good, they should be able to. They know who was where, what they did, and what they should have done. I think our coaches are good enough to know what the problems were last year and I think you can tell just by the moves they made what they thought those problems were.

Actually, some of the blame for the running game was the RB's not make the right cutbacks. The one thing are O-line did do well most of last year was run-block, they just couldn't pass-block, even if their lives depended on it.

The Pencil Neck
06-18-2007, 07:28 PM
Actually, some of the blame for the running game was the RB's not make the right cutbacks. The one thing are O-line did do well most of last year was run-block, they just couldn't pass-block, even if their lives depended on it.

They pass blocked fine for the most part. No line keeps their QB totally clean and they're while they're not the greatest line in the league, they're not the worst. At worst, they are a totally average line.

A bad offensive line can get a quarterback killed. On the flip side, a bad QB can make the entire offense look bad.

If Carr had been throwing the ball on time, he wouldn't have been hit or sacked half as much. What I saw when I looked at the games was that a lot of the time, Carr was not seeing open guys and he wasn't throwing the ball on time. He was panicking when there were no people around.

If Schaub is what people have said he is, then our o-line is going to look like it underwent a massive renovation in the offseason.

There is a possibility that he isn't what they said he is, but I think he's going to be good and I'm willing to give him the opportunity to get a chance to show it.

BattleRedToro
06-18-2007, 07:33 PM
They pass blocked fine for the most part. No line keeps their QB totally clean and they're while they're not the greatest line in the league, they're not the worst. At worst, they are a totally average line.

A bad offensive line can get a quarterback killed. On the flip side, a bad QB can make the entire offense look bad.

If Carr had been throwing the ball on time, he wouldn't have been hit or sacked half as much. What I saw when I looked at the games was that a lot of the time, Carr was not seeing open guys and he wasn't throwing the ball on time. He was panicking when there were no people around.

If Schaub is what people have said he is, then our o-line is going to look like it underwent a massive renovation in the offseason.

There is a possibility that he isn't what they said he is, but I think he's going to be good and I'm willing to give him the opportunity to get a chance to show it.

There are actually two more possibilities as well and they are:

3) Schaub is as good as people say he is but the O-line is also as bad as people say they are.

or

4) Schaub is not as good as people say he is and the O-line is also as bad as people say they are.

I sure hope it isn't #4 because that will just suck for us Texans fans.

The Pencil Neck
06-18-2007, 08:20 PM
There are actually two more possibilities as well and they are:

3) Schaub is as good as people say he is but the O-line is also as bad as people say they are.

or

4) Schaub is not as good as people say he is and the O-line is also as bad as people say they are.

I sure hope it isn't #4 because that will just suck for us Texans fans.

Well, since I'm positive the o-line isn't as bad as people say they are, I immediately reject these as options with such a vanishingly small chance of being true as to be fantastical. :shades:

:fans:

BattleRedToro
06-18-2007, 08:36 PM
Well, since I'm positive the o-line isn't as bad as people say they are, I immediately reject these as options with such a vanishingly small chance of being true as to be fantastical. :shades:

:fans:

Yes, I knew that. I thought they should be presented anyways for completeness and posterity's sake.

Bipolar The Titan
06-19-2007, 06:53 PM
:thumbup
Actually when questioned the Texans players all seemed unable to describe what Young looked like. Most described a blur going past them and the #10 on a jersey slowly fades away as it pulled to far ahead for the pursuers to see.

:includeme::laughjump:

Texan_Bill
06-20-2007, 12:50 PM
There is nothing to add. You have a really good running back with no QB, no receivers and no back-up running backs...

ChildressTitanMan
06-20-2007, 01:08 PM
There is nothing to add. You have a really good running back with no QB, no receivers and no back-up running backs...

More than we need to handle your weak sauce :stirpot:

Texan_Bill
06-20-2007, 01:49 PM
We shall see, my man...... :fans:

infantrycak
01-08-2008, 10:03 PM
If Shammy goes down 30+ times next seaons who do you blame then?

Well gee Alex, I'll try ignorant NFL questions for $1000.

Only 11 teams gave up less than 30 sacks last season. I'm guessing Texan fans will be rejoicing if they are in the top half of the league in that stat.

I'd say folks are at least ok with 6th in the league--no real need for the blame police.

TexanAddict
01-08-2008, 10:30 PM
I'd say that I'm pretty ecstatic about going from 68 sacks to 22 in two seasons time.

thunderkyss
01-08-2008, 10:39 PM
I'd say folks are at least ok with 6th in the league--no real need for the blame police.

We'd have been #1 in the league if it weren't for that Gaping hole at LT.


We need to get a LT in the first round period.

:thinking:

markn
01-08-2008, 11:11 PM
I'd say that I'm pretty ecstatic about going from 68 sacks to 22 in two seasons time.

Trouble is, injuries resulting from sacks have gone from 0/68 to 2/22.

The Pencil Neck
01-08-2008, 11:28 PM
Trouble is, injuries resulting from sacks have gone from 0/68 to 2/22.

Number of QB's playing who assumed fetal position whenever anyone was around so that they wouldn't get injured has gone from 1 to 0.

Silver Oak
01-09-2008, 07:30 AM
Trouble is, injuries resulting from sacks have gone from 0/68 to 2/22.

Schaubs concussion did not occur on a sack, but rather on an interception return when he has given a helmet under the chin by a Charger looking for cheap shot at the qb.

Double Barrel
01-09-2008, 11:14 AM
From another thread, but thought it should be mentioned here:

fun trivia: of the 12 most sacked QB's in the NFL, Young is one of them and has the lowest passer rating of those 12!

TheRealJoker
01-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Schaubs concussion did not occur on a sack, but rather on an interception return when he has given a helmet under the chin by a Charger looking for cheap shot at the qb.

He was knocked out of both Tacks games from sacks. The first one Fat Albert drove him to the ground and the second one Odom sacked him and separated his shoulder.

Silver Oak
01-09-2008, 12:36 PM
He was knocked out of both Tacks games from sacks. The first one Fat Albert drove him to the ground and the second one Odom sacked him and separated his shoulder.

I agree, but the time he missed this season was from the concussion in the SD game, and the shoulder in the titan game. I could be wrong, but I think he could have come back in if needed as he did play the next week.

Blazing Arrow
01-09-2008, 10:20 PM
Shammy is injury prone. Just accept it.

markn
01-09-2008, 11:26 PM
Number of QB's playing who assumed fetal position whenever anyone was around so that they wouldn't get injured has gone from 1 to 0.

heh!

Overalls
01-10-2008, 06:00 PM
Shammy is injury prone. Just accept it.

Vince is brain dead. Just accept it.

Silver Oak
01-10-2008, 06:48 PM
Shammy is injury prone. Just accept it.


pardon me young lady, but did you ever eat your serving of crow from last weekends game?

Blazing Arrow
01-10-2008, 07:00 PM
pardon me young lady, but did you ever eat your serving of crow from last weekends game?

Crow is only being served in SD. Here in bovine country there are steaks on the grill. :cool:

Texan_Bill
01-11-2008, 08:38 AM
Crow is only being served in SD. Here in bovine country there are steaks on the grill. :cool:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazing Arrow
Please .. keep them coming. Crow suprise is always best when people have made a huge discussion out of it.


Typical.....


We get it Flaming Arrow... You have no sack.