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View Full Version : Team needs WR? What about Owen Daniels?


eriadoc
04-25-2007, 11:22 AM
OK, so we don't have a guy at the #2 spot that most would feel comfortable going into the season with. KW, Davis, and Mathis all = a big ?, to be sure. Consider this, though:

KC for more than a few years had Tony Gonzales as their #1 receiver, with Kennison putting up 2nd-best numbers (well, or Priest), who is nowhere near as talented as AJ.

Antonio Gates has been the Chargers' leading receiver for a couple years now. They have McCardell, who is good, but a little long in the tooth and certainly not as talented as AJ.

Until Mason arrived, Todd Heap was the Ravens' go-to guy, with an assortment of journeymen receivers.

The Patriots have gotten major production from their TE position, with Branch and a host of other WRs, albeit the TE position was by committee.

The Falcons have Crumpler and no one.

Anyway, you get the idea. Those teams all have TEs that they rely on to be their #1 receiver. We don't really have that need, since we have AJ, but how about letting OD be the one that takes the pressure off AJ? How about letting him run patterns up the seams, in the middle, and in the flats? I think an AJ-OD combo would be effective and allow KW and Mathis time to adjust and see what they can bring to the team. Thoughts?

infantrycak
04-25-2007, 11:24 AM
It is clearly Kubiak's ideal plan to utilize the TE position. He was doing so last year and OD was leading the league in TE TD's until they shut the offense down for Carr.

Yankee_In_TX
04-25-2007, 11:38 AM
OD, "my boy!" I was ticked when he stopped getting looks/plays.

eriadoc
04-25-2007, 11:42 AM
It is clearly Kubiak's ideal plan to utilize the TE position. He was doing so last year and OD was leading the league in TE TD's until they shut the offense down for Carr.

Yeah, except that Kubiak has never really had a dominant TE in one of his offenses. In Denver, it was TEBC. Putzier never had more than 36 or 37 catches, and other TEs picked up some receptions along the way. I am just wondering if Kubiak would utilize OD in a manner that resulted in 55-70 catches, a la Gonzales, Gates, Heap, Crumpler, or even Cooley. I think if you had paired one of those elite TEs with a WR of AJ's caliber at any point, the results would have been awesome. I am not certain OD can be that guy, of course, but so much of that comes down to opportunity and scheme. I am optimistic he could be, but I don't know that he'll get the chance.

infantrycak
04-25-2007, 11:45 AM
Yeah, except that Kubiak has never really had a dominant TE in one of his offenses.

I think you are forgetting Shannon Sharpe (never had less than 60 receptions under Kubiak except an injury year plus one season over 1000 yds and one over 1100 yds) who was under Kubiak from 1995 to 2003.

TEXANS84
04-25-2007, 11:46 AM
Yeah, except that Kubiak has never really had a dominant TE in one of his offenses.

Shannon Sharpe?

Kaiser Toro
04-25-2007, 11:50 AM
I agree with your premise, especially when you add Ahman Green and a QB who may feel comfortable in a collapsing pocket into the mix.

WR2 is a need on paper, but may not be one from an execution level if the current parts gel together.

76Texan
04-25-2007, 11:57 AM
I like Owen very much, just want him to keep improving his blocking skill. :doot:

eriadoc
04-25-2007, 12:09 PM
I think you are forgetting Shannon Sharpe (never had less than 60 receptions under Kubiak except an injury year plus one season over 1000 yds and one over 1100 yds) who was under Kubiak from 1995 to 2003.

Woohoo! I did forget him LOL. Now I have hope again. Thanks :)

CrunkTex
04-25-2007, 12:14 PM
I don't know why people are under the impression that Schaub and Green are going to change anything. Different names and faces but Schaub is still unproven and Green is over the hill. Adding a legitimate #2 to take pressure off of AJ, our only offensive weapon, would definitely be a start. Daniels is great but I don't think he's exactly going to alter opponent's game plans. Of all the teams you mentioned who prominently use TE's, they either have great RB's, a great O-line, or both. We...have neither.

Vinny
04-25-2007, 12:15 PM
With Andre and Owens we don't need an "elite" wr2. We can 'patriot' the wr2 and go wrbc there depending on how defenses are playing you. Put in Andre Davis if they crowd the box, but in Walters when teams are laying back in a cover2 shell as he is a bigger more physical wr....I also think I like David Anderson in the slot and think he will make some plays this year. He has some nice yac ability. We need to get him the Don Bebee great gazoo helmet though.

jerek
04-25-2007, 12:19 PM
I think Daniels went unused after those first few games primarily because Carr just wasn't good at throwing to the middle of the field. I think we'll see Daniels become a big contributor this year ... assuming Schaub lives up to his billing.

infantrycak
04-25-2007, 12:20 PM
I don't know why people are under the impression that Schaub and Green are going to change anything.

How about because even marginal QB play will be a drastic improvement? Tell you what, in 5 years of Carr play, find me one play as good as the one Schaub made evading the grasp of pressure from the LDE, rolling to his right and then actually stopping and making a 60 TD pass to Price. 2 games vs. 76 games ought to be easy to find one.

nunusguy
04-25-2007, 12:35 PM
I also think like David Anderson in the slot and think he will make some plays this year.

DA our surprise weapon this year ? There's a scoop. Actually, DA to me is a smaller, slower version of Keven Walters.
But you've made a few calls that turned out to be insighful V. And at the same time, I reseve to right to remind you about this one if he gets cut before the regular season starts.

Vinny
04-25-2007, 12:39 PM
Anderson seems much quicker than Walters does to me. He also avoids tacklers better. I don't know who has more straight line speed though.

jerek
04-25-2007, 12:43 PM
Anderson seems much quicker than Walters does to me. He also avoids tacklers better. I don't know who has more straight line speed though.

I would also have said DA is much quicker and probably faster straight line as well.

CrunkTex
04-25-2007, 12:45 PM
I don't know if it's a Colts hangover or elation that Carr's gone or just unabashed homerism, but I don't think most of you realize that this is one of the 5 worst teams in the NFL right now. In fact, it may very well take a miracle for us to improve on 6-10. The light at the end of the tunnel for this team isn't the playoffs. The light is Darren McFadden.

nunusguy
04-25-2007, 12:51 PM
Anderson seems much quicker than Walters does to me.

Dang V, he's about a half foot shorter than Walters. Guys with short stubby legs almost always look quicker than the long striders.
But I hope you're right about DA. It's well known we need all the help we can get at receiver.

HoustonFrog
04-25-2007, 12:57 PM
Owen will be their "Novachek." They remind me of one another. Slighter build but a guy who seems to be able to get open and a deceptively quick. They really need a quality guy in the draft to go with Walters. I think leaving Owen at TE and going this route will make the team much more successful in the red zone.

hollywood_texan
04-25-2007, 01:07 PM
This whole discussion about a legit #2 WR really revolves around Schuab.

If Schuab is as good as Kubiak/Smith think, then probably going on the expensive side for a #2 WR really isn't required.

Also, just because Carr couldn't get it done for the Texans last year, doesn't mean Schuab is doomed to failure.

It's really going to be interesting to see what happens this year!

badboy
04-25-2007, 01:36 PM
Need to stretch the field. What happens if we lose AJ for a few games? We do not have a wide out to take his place. Mathis has not proved anything as a WR. We should go CB & pick up a another 3rd or maybe even a 2nd rd and grab another WR. Out TE and slot is not a worry unless we try to make them into a #2 WR.

Goldensilence
04-25-2007, 05:44 PM
I don't think Wr2 is a big as need as it looks on paper now at least. Sure it would be nice but i think Oline should by far be our prioirity with secondary help second. Mostly because a lot of what we're going to do is predicated off the running game.

I think we'll have options far as our offense goes and what idon't get is how some people seem to think some forms of WCO are vertical happy. In the typical WCO you take your shots downfield but it's not a staple really. Shorter passes and timing routes are the staple of it.

I think we'll be fine with AJ, whomever is trotted out as #2 when the season starts, OD, Green and....i think people are discounting what Leach brings to the table as a option out of the backfield. Kubiak's Offense in Denver had Howard Griffith(if i remember right) who was a great blocking FB and could come out of the backfield and grab a pass or two. While the dink and dunk style of taking what defenses give isn't flashy or golorious....long as it gets in the endzone it's effective.

Dynamic offenses aren't just relegated to the WR position. If AJ got his own last year....this year he should get even more.

cuppacoffee
04-25-2007, 05:49 PM
It is clearly Kubiak's ideal plan to utilize the TE position. He was doing so last year and OD was leading the league in TE TD's until they shut the offense down for Carr.

:penalty:

If OD was leading the league in TE TD's, who was getting the ball to him?. :lightbulb:

We have a new QB now, the haters won, or haven't you heard?. :secret:


:coffee:

Kaiser Toro
04-25-2007, 06:25 PM
:penalty: :penalty: The haters did not win, common sense did.

In the first game against Tennessee, second half, Owen Daniels had two of his 5 TDs with Rosenfels passing. He also caught 5 passes for 56 yards from Sage in the same half. 40% of OD's TD passes, 14.7% of his catches and 15.9% of his yards came in one half with Sage at QB. One half of play equates to 3% of the season.

Rub some dirt on it. :)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20061029_HOU@TEN

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/409170

ATXtexanfan
04-25-2007, 06:52 PM
i wouldn't draft a wr till the 4th. we have more pressing needs to address and all we are looking for is a #2.

cuppacoffee
04-25-2007, 06:54 PM
The haters did not win, common sense did.

In the first game against Tennessee, second half, Owen Daniels had two of his 5 TDs with Rosenfels passing. He also caught 5 passes for 56 yards from Sage in the same half. 40% of OD's TD passes, 14.7% of his catches and 15.9% of his yards came in one half with Sage at QB. One half of play equates to 3% of the season.

Rub some dirt on it. :)

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20061029_HOU@TEN

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/409170

But it was all garbage time. :D

Any positive offensive stats last year were accumulated in garbage time, weren't they?.:shrug:

:jk:

I'll support Shaub now...he will be needing it.


:coffee:

TexanFan881
04-25-2007, 07:25 PM
i wouldn't draft a wr till the 4th. we have more pressing needs to address and all we are looking for is a #2.

More pressing needs?

At safety at least we have C.C. Brown. At CB at least we have Demarcus Faggins. At OT we at least might have Charles Spencer.

Right now Kevin Walter is our #2 WR!!!!!

nedthehead
04-25-2007, 11:59 PM
If the Texans draft a guy like Craig Davis on the second round they would be set at the number 2 spot.

Hervoyel
04-26-2007, 12:15 AM
I would also have said DA is much quicker and probably faster straight line as well.


Agreed and I have no idea whether or not his "numbers" would confirm that. I just know he seems to be better at getting seperation and he seems quicker once he makes the catch. Frankly I don't even care if he's not "truly" faster. He plays that way and I think we all agree that it's time the Texans stop just focusing on measurables and find some guys who are players. Every time I've seen David Anderson involved he looked like he was about to make something happen. We've had so little of that in the last 5 years.

HJam72
04-26-2007, 02:16 AM
I don't think Wr2 is a big as need as it looks on paper now at least. Sure it would be nice but i think Oline should by far be our prioirity with secondary help second. Mostly because a lot of what we're going to do is predicated off the running game.

I think we'll have options far as our offense goes and what idon't get is how some people seem to think some forms of WCO are vertical happy. In the typical WCO you take your shots downfield but it's not a staple really. Shorter passes and timing routes are the staple of it.

I think we'll be fine with AJ, whomever is trotted out as #2 when the season starts, OD, Green and....i think people are discounting what Leach brings to the table as a option out of the backfield. Kubiak's Offense in Denver had Howard Griffith(if i remember right) who was a great blocking FB and could come out of the backfield and grab a pass or two. While the dink and dunk style of taking what defenses give isn't flashy or golorious....long as it gets in the endzone it's effective.

Dynamic offenses aren't just relegated to the WR position. If AJ got his own last year....this year he should get even more.

I can't help saying it:

OH, GREAT! NOW WE WANNA DINK AND DUNK ALL GAME LONG. :brickwall:

(I missed the brickwall dude.) :shades:

eriadoc
04-26-2007, 10:42 AM
I can't help saying it:

OH, GREAT! NOW WE WANNA DINK AND DUNK ALL GAME LONG. :brickwall:

(I missed the brickwall dude.) :shades:

As long as we can mix in an abundance of 6-yd. hitch routes, I'm all for it.

Goldensilence
04-26-2007, 10:57 AM
I can't help saying it:

OH, GREAT! NOW WE WANNA DINK AND DUNK ALL GAME LONG. :brickwall:

(I missed the brickwall dude.) :shades:

I never even implied such a thing as all game long. Most GOOD teams take what the defense gives them and know when to go over the top. But hey i'll take an ugly win over a pretty loss.

IMO what we saw last year was inconsistency in the running game for most of the year and those short passes served as part of the running game. I'm confident between Green and Dayne next year out of the gate we won't have that problem. What does throw up a red flag is consistent line play which has been a terrible trademark for this team. Solve the lines then you can have the flashy skilled position player.

dickieb
04-26-2007, 02:29 PM
I am just trying to look at depth. Injuries happen, and what if A. Johnson goes down, the point is we don't have much depth at WR. Also the O-line we don't have much quality depth either. It would be nice to see them go offense in the first round, but I think it could very eaisly be a defensive 1st round pick.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
04-26-2007, 02:49 PM
Outside of Andre Johnson, the rest of the wide receivers on our roster caught a combined 20 passes last season. Call me crazy but I think WR is one of our biggest needs.

eriadoc
04-26-2007, 03:22 PM
Outside of Andre Johnson, the rest of the wide receivers on our roster caught a combined 20 passes last season. Call me crazy but I think WR is one of our biggest needs.

Well, I think that is due in large part to our passing offense going straight down the tubes as Kubiak totally lost faith in Carr's ability to hold on to the ball.

How many passes did SD receivers catch, aside from Gates and McCardell? How about KC, aside from Gonzo and Kennison? Or Baltimore, aside from Heap and Mason? My point is that we can have a very productive passing offense with AJ and OD as our two receiving threats. The precedent has been set by other teams and the blueprint is there. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith were the #1 and #2 receiving threats for the Broncos for a number of years.

So yes, WR2 is a need, but I don't classify it as big of a need as LT, CB, S, DT, or even LB.

By the way, Eric Moulds caught 57 passes last year.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
04-26-2007, 03:57 PM
Well, I think that is due in large part to our passing offense going straight down the tubes as Kubiak totally lost faith in Carr's ability to hold on to the ball.

How many passes did SD receivers catch, aside from Gates and McCardell? How about KC, aside from Gonzo and Kennison? Or Baltimore, aside from Heap and Mason? My point is that we can have a very productive passing offense with AJ and OD as our two receiving threats. The precedent has been set by other teams and the blueprint is there. As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, Shannon Sharpe and Rod Smith were the #1 and #2 receiving threats for the Broncos for a number of years.

So yes, WR2 is a need, but I don't classify it as big of a need as LT, CB, S, DT, or even LB.

By the way, Eric Moulds caught 57 passes last year.




San Diego wide receivers minus Gates and McCardell: 90 catches

Baltimore wide receivers minus Heap and Mason: 91 catches

Kansas City wide receivers minus Gonzo and Kennison: 46 catches


Then you must take into account that we do not have the dominant rushing attack both San Diego and Kansas City possess.

Vinny
04-26-2007, 04:18 PM
Outside of Andre Johnson, the rest of the wide receivers on our roster caught a combined 20 passes last season. Call me crazy but I think WR is one of our biggest needs.
Eric Moulds (http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/1196) caught 57 passes last year. It's not like it was Andre and nobody. Those catches will go to whomever is in his shoes. I don't think we need to spend our top pick on this position since Andre and Daniels make a nice twosome.

powerfuldragon
04-26-2007, 04:23 PM
plus we have walters... kubiak likes walters.

76Texan
04-26-2007, 05:36 PM
San Diego wide receivers minus Gates and McCardell: 90 catches

Baltimore wide receivers minus Heap and Mason: 91 catches

Kansas City wide receivers minus Gonzo and Kennison: 46 catches


Then you must take into account that we do not have the dominant rushing attack both San Diego and Kansas City possess.

I don't know how you get to these numbers.

But anyway, we will likely be incorporating our RBs in the passing game even more, now that we have Green on board. Our 4 RBs had a combined 66 catches last year. Green had 46 by himself, and he can do more with it afterward, as his 8ypc indicates.

That would lessen the need of another bonafide receiver, but I wouldnt mind trading back our first and get a guy like Sidney Rice who played faster than his unspectacular speed. The guy can really sky and stretch for the ball, probably a mid 2nd rounder.
If we want a speed burner, our local UH guy Vincent Marshall, 4.38-40 is a sleeper. Yes he's short and small, but always has the knack for getting open. Seems like he has been climbing up the chart a bit, ever since he got HM on the Rivals.com All-Bowl team. CDS has him at #23 at WR, but there's a possibility that he won't even get drafted.

Runner
04-26-2007, 06:12 PM
plus we have walters... kubiak likes walters.

Or spins it that way since Moulds didn't work out.

76Texan
04-26-2007, 06:18 PM
Or spins it that way since Moulds didn't work out.

Haha!

But really, I think Kubiak would prefer to use Walters more often. But there were only so many opportunities in the passing game (which is few in the second half of the season) and Moulds already frustrated 'cause he didnt get enough.

Runner
04-26-2007, 06:21 PM
Haha!

But really, I think Kubiak would prefer to use Walters more often. But there were only so many opportunities in the passing game (which is few in the second half of the season) and Moulds already frustrated 'cause he didnt get enough.

Quite a few questions will be answered this weekend, and quite a few different ones will be generated. It'll be nice to have something solid to talk about.

76Texan
04-26-2007, 06:39 PM
Quite a few questions will be answered this weekend, and quite a few different ones will be generated. It'll be nice to have something solid to talk about.
It would be happy if they get 2/3 the result of last year's draft.
We don't have quite the position this year, and no 2nd rounder either.

HJam72
04-26-2007, 07:10 PM
Despite my last post, I don't want a wide receiver in the first round, unless a miracle happened and C Johnson was available at 10 (won't hold my breath), or probably the first day for that matter. I think David Carr was the biggest reason that Moulds caught such fewer passes than AJ; but, I definitely do want DBs (probably plural), as opposed to linemen, which is just a little lower on my list.

badboy
04-27-2007, 09:43 AM
Despite my last post, I don't want a wide receiver in the first round, unless a miracle happened and C Johnson was available at 10 (won't hold my breath), or probably the first day for that matter. I think David Carr was the biggest reason that Moulds caught such fewer passes than AJ; but, I definitely do want DBs (probably plural), as opposed to linemen, which is just a little lower on my list.I just do not see the Dline as one of our urgent needs. Some of the pick ups last year (as mentioned a few posts back) were doing better. I am looking for a trade down and picking up a second (Green Bay) or possibly the Denver deal that is rumored with us getting their 2nd & 3rd after swapping to 21. If we can pick up a CB, FS, WR as starters we are in good shape. Then for depth we can use 4th, 5th and 6th for another WR, CB/FS and best player available @ 7th. I think a center may be possibly added to the mix some where if we get the extra 3rd from Denver.

A Texan
04-27-2007, 04:39 PM
I don't know if it's a Colts hangover or elation that Carr's gone or just unabashed homerism, but I don't think most of you realize that this is one of the 5 worst teams in the NFL right now. In fact, it may very well take a miracle for us to improve on 6-10. The light at the end of the tunnel for this team isn't the playoffs. The light is Darren McFadden.
Oh, the gloom and doomsayers! Can't you understand the fact that The Texans were making wholesale changes last year with the arrival of Kubiak. Especially difficult was the fact that they were changing defensive schemes entirely. If you've never run anthing but a 3-4, it's going to take that 1st year for your personnel to adjust. The 2nd year should be better if for no other reason that your personnel are more familiar with what they're doing.

TexanSam
04-27-2007, 05:04 PM
I think Daniels production went down last season partly because of Carr and partly because of himself. If I remember correctly, I remember Kubiak mentioning Daniels hitting the rookie wall. I don't think he used those exact words, but it was something similar to it.