PDA

View Full Version : Defensive Line Development


Texans_Chick
04-23-2007, 09:21 AM
Here's an interesting article primarily about KC (http://www.kansascity.com/160/story/79661.html), but has a Texans connection as it relates to Bob Karmelowicz and his development of Williams.

It's an interesting read.

Lots of dirty laundry aired.

nunusguy
04-23-2007, 10:24 AM
“I’m not trying to throw anyone under the bus, but facts are facts,” Freeman said. “The same coach who had us had Mario Williams in Houston last year — and how did Williams do? Not very good, right?”

***********************************************
I hope he was one of the problems with Marios disappointing rookie year, because replacing him is one thing they can do and did do this year. I dunno,
but he may have been more relavant to coaching in the Knute Rockne era than today with the kind of players in the league now.
But I'm convinced that the musical-chairs charade Mario went thru last year was a real blunder for his development in his rookie NFL year. He needs to be put at strongside DE (or one single position, wherever), and left there the whole season. I dunno though, the strategy to bounce him around last year could have been more the DC or HCs idea than the position coach ?

the wonger need food
04-23-2007, 10:30 AM
Travis Johnson should be joining those guys pretty soon. Did we really use a top 15 pick on that guy???


Steph, I know you're a big fan of Coach Karm, but there are several indications that he is not a very good NFL coach. Guys at this level probably have a hard time relating to someone screaming at them all the time.

Mr. White
04-23-2007, 10:39 AM
LOL at a guy playing Arena Ball trying to "not throw somebody under the bus."

The fact is that Freeman busted and he's blaming his position coach for it. What about all the D-Linemen that came in off the street last season and made a strong showing?

I think that the defense spent too much time on the field last season for us to make an accurate assessment of them. That goes for coaches too.

Double Barrel
04-23-2007, 10:46 AM
“Most people were dying to go with someone else,” Karmelowicz said. “But Eddie was the highest-rated player left in the draft at all positions. Time was running out, so we just ended up taking him based on where he was rated on the board. Based on that, he was the only option. The board drafted Eddie Freeman.”

And here I thought NFL draft rooms were some kind of highly analytical and deep thinking strategy sessions. Maybe the Chiefs could us a dart board or some dice?

It'll be interesting to see how Mario develops this year, because I wasn't impressed with the musical chair approach to coaching our rookie star last season, either. It seemed counter-productive, and now we may have some insight as to why.

Lucky
04-23-2007, 10:48 AM
Travis Johnson should be joining those guys pretty soon. Did we really use a top 15 pick on that guy???
No. TJ was the 16th pick in the 2005 draft. :thud:


Steph, I know you're a big fan of Coach Karm, but there are several indications that he is not a very good NFL coach.
One indication is that Karmelowicz is no longer a NFL defensive line coach.

Here's the bio of the Texans new DL coach, Jethro Franklin (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=18).

FRANKLIN’S COACHING LEDGER

2007: Defensive Line, Houston Texans

2006: Defensive Line, Tampa Bay Buccaneers

2005: Defensive Line, Southern California

2000-04: Defensive Line, Green Bay Packers

1999: Defensive Line, UCLA

1991-98: Defensive Line, Fresno StateHoly Vince Young! Was that Franklin's DL that #10 ran over, around, and through in the BCS championship game? :yikes: Not a good sign.

Vinny
04-23-2007, 11:26 AM
Finding quality linemen is harder than most of us probably think. Athletic, nimble 270-300ish pounders with the proper attitude and the right level of conditioning are hard to come by. I appreciate guys like Ray Childress more and more each year.

Ole Miss Texan
04-23-2007, 12:11 PM
I understand those players being upset and blaming the coaches. Karm's style may not have 'clicked' with some of those players, but at the same time: you just gotta get it done in this league or you're out. I think it says a lot that they aren't in the NFL anymore. I would have thought that at least 1 of the 31 other teams would have them at least on their team, if nothing more than depth....that says a lot right there.

This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?

Vinny
04-23-2007, 12:16 PM
This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?
He looks like a guy coach Sherman liked and is another one of those Packer/Bronco connection type things. NFL Coaches move constantly, so that isn't a red flag of any sort.

In helping the Packers' defense surrender only 237 points in 2001, the fifth-lowest total in the league, Franklin’s linemen contributed to a team-record 52 sacks, good for third in the NFL. The constant pressure up front led to the defense allowing just 10.3 yards per pass play, the second-lowest figure in the NFL and tops in the NFC, as well as allowing only 4.7 yards per play overall, the sixth-best mark in the league.Franklin’s work in 2000, his first year in Green Bay, was similarly successful. The Packers yielded a mere seven rushing touchdowns, second-lowest total in the NFL and the second-fewest yielded by the Packers since 1962. http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=18

Dallas_Texan
04-23-2007, 12:28 PM
I understand those players being upset and blaming the coaches. Karm's style may not have 'clicked' with some of those players, but at the same time: you just gotta get it done in this league or you're out. I think it says a lot that they aren't in the NFL anymore. I would have thought that at least 1 of the 31 other teams would have them at least on their team, if nothing more than depth....that says a lot right there.

This Jethro guy, is it just me or does it seem he's moved around quite a bit. I think one thing that hurts many applicants for jobs is when they see you've moved jobs quite a bit as in EVERY year. Oh, and I think Vince Young ran all over not only his DL but about 8 other DL's as well; a few in the pros...including us..in two different games. We need to stop that.

Whats up with this new guy Jethro? For those that know more- are y'all excited about him?

Sorry for the off topic comment, but I like that Avatar Ole Miss. Classy. I like seeing that stuff out of other schools' alumni.

Specnatz
04-23-2007, 12:52 PM
But I'm convinced that the musical-chairs charade Mario went thru last year was a real blunder for his development in his rookie NFL year. He needs to be put at strongside DE (or one single position, wherever), and left there the whole season. I dunno though, the strategy to bounce him around last year could have been more the DC or HCs idea than the position coach ?

I think this and the foot injury had more to do with the subpar season versus anything in the coaching.

Just moving a rookie around from position to position just does not seem good for there develoment long term, second year fine but the rookie year? The game is a lot faster and longer than in college.

jerek
04-23-2007, 12:56 PM
I liked Karm as a personality--he's a funny, curse-like-a-sailor, prototypical "old school" coach--but I really have no idea how effective he is/was as a d-line coach in terms of teaching technique. I watched him lead a lot of position drills but I don't know enough "football" to critique him usefully.

Texans_Chick
04-23-2007, 01:30 PM
I liked Karm as a personality--he's a funny, curse-like-a-sailor, prototypical "old school" coach--but I really have no idea how effective he is/was as a d-line coach in terms of teaching technique. I watched him lead a lot of position drills but I don't know enough "football" to critique him usefully.

That's where I am on things. He's had players not care for him, but then some of his old players love him.

Yeah, Karm is still with the team but not as the Dline coach. You don't want to read too much into things, but it is worth noting that he is getting older and has had some health problems.

Malloy
04-23-2007, 01:43 PM
Holy Vince Young! Was that Franklin's DL that #10 ran over, around, and through in the BCS championship game? :yikes: Not a good sign.

He's got experience with Vince now, good thing we got him ;)

On the original article, wow... Gall-bladders are getting emptied!

Kinda tough to place the responsibility in the case of KC, I'm sure that both players and coaches hold equal responsibility. What is more important that playing the blame-game is to identify the problem (or problems) and correct them.
Re-assigning Karm this off-season might be an indicator that part of the problem were with him, and that his abilities are better used at some other position. Identify peoples forces and weaknesses, and place them in positions where they are utilized to the best of their abilities.

It's pretty much like in the army, just because you are an excellent tactician does not make you good at strategy :)

Hagar
04-23-2007, 02:10 PM
“I went to New England for preseason camp (in 2006). Their linemen aren’t any more talented than the ones the Chiefs drafted. But they work with those guys there. Ty Warren, Jarvis Green … they work with them and make them better.”

Karmelowicz didn’t seem bothered that Freeman said he wasn’t “developed.”

“That’s like me saying that I could learn to slam dunk if someone would just work with me,” Karmelowicz said. “We both know it’s not going to happen. Eddie was one tough cookie, and he tried real hard. But there’s a reason he’s not playing anymore.”This quote kinda stuck in my craw.

So what Karm is say is "you cant teach physical skills". So then you go out and get the most physical guy out there and he will perform no matter what the coaching?? So do you even need a coach?? Not every player is going to have every skill required for a particular position. Defenses have to work together to offset each other's physical limitation and exploit physical strengths.

The other thing that bothered me was the fact that Freeman basically said Karm didn't do his job. Assuming it was Karm's job to "develop" Freeman. Karm didn't disagree.

Sounds like a tired, old man, who is ready for the farm to me.

hadaad
04-23-2007, 04:06 PM
Hagar: I don't think he's saying that coaching means nothing. I think it means that you can try as hard as you want, and you can be as well-coached as possible, and if you don't have the physical talent, you still can't make it.

That doesn't suggest that an uncoached physical specimen will be successful. I think he means you need both.

That said, to have that many guys flake out, under the same coaching staff is a little (or more than a little) suspicious.

gtexan02
04-23-2007, 04:43 PM
Really interesting read.

Some players are amazing in college and it doesnt translate immediately in the NFL. And this may be a good indication as to why--different styles.

It makes me think ATL will definitely target Amobi Okoye and Bush. Both are Pettrino guys, so he knows exactly what he's getting

Ole Miss Texan
04-23-2007, 10:30 PM
Really interesting read.

Some players are amazing in college and it doesnt translate immediately in the NFL. And this may be a good indication as to why--different styles.

It makes me think ATL will definitely target Amobi Okoye and Bush. Both are Pettrino guys, so he knows exactly what he's getting

I too think atl will target okoye in the 1st if landry is gone and then bush inthe 3rd round.

gtexan i thought in your sig, you were going to say don't forget april 20th was somethin else....lol

76Texan
04-24-2007, 08:50 AM
I would think players like Russell Maryland and Cortez Kennedy have more credibility.

This article explains a couple of things about coach K's style.

http://www.uwrf.edu/chiefs05/features?page=2&Files=8-06a05.htm

76Texan
04-24-2007, 08:56 AM
It's unlikely that one can last 30 years at a high level by being not very good.
I've read high praises from ESPN, ProFootball Weekly, Scouts Inc., etc.

Here's his bio from a few years back:

Karmelowicz, 49, returns for his third season as Kansas City's defensive line coach. A former collegiate nose tackle, he owns 25 years of coaching experience, the past seven of which have been spent in the NFL ranks. Prior to joining the Chiefs in ‘98, he spent three years (‘94-96) with the Washington Redskins and two years with the Cincinnati Bengals (‘92-93).

Thanks in large part to Karmelowicz's defensive line, the Chiefs produced 40 sacks in ‘98, an average of one every 13 pass plays, a figure which ranked fourth in the AFC. That group was paced by "Falcon" Derrick Thomas who produced 12.0 sacks to rank third in the conference.

In his first season with Kansas City in ‘97, the Chiefs revamped defensive front was a key element of NFL's stingiest scoring defense. The club racked up 54 sacks, the second-highest total in franchise history, a figure which also tied for third-best mark in the league. The club improved in stuffing the run as well, yielding just 101.3 yards per game to rank fourth in the AFC and seventh in the league.

In three seasons with Washington, he worked with the likes of tackle Sean Gilbert and defensive end Rich Owens, who led the Redskins with 11 sacks in ‘96, just his second pro campaign. During his three years (‘89-91) coaching the defensive line at the University of Miami (Fla.), he helped produce a pair of top-three overall draft picks in Russell Maryland (1st overall in ‘91) and Cortez Kennedy (3rd overall in ‘90). His defensive line was also a key link in a Hurricanes squad which led the nation in total defense in ‘89 and topped the country in scoring defense in ‘91.

The New Britain, Connecticut, product began his career in the professional ranks with the Cincinnati Bengals (‘92-93) after spending 16 seasons on the collegiate level. Prior to his three years at Miami, Karmelowicz enjoyed stints at Massachusetts (‘80), Texas-El Paso (‘81), Illinois (‘82-86) and Washington State (‘87-88). A three-year starter and a consensus Little All-American nose tackle at the University of Bridgeport, Karmelowicz began his coaching career under Frank Kush at Arizona State in ‘75 and went on to spend five seasons (‘75-79) with the Sun Devils.

Double Barrel
04-24-2007, 11:32 AM
It's unlikely that one can last 30 years at a high level by being not very good.

Dear 76Texan,

I beg to differ.

Signed,

Charlie Casserly

:D

76Texan
04-24-2007, 02:50 PM
Dear 76Texan,

I beg to differ.

Signed,

Charlie Casserly

:D

I don't know if we need a new thread for Casserly.
Anyhow, I'm one who maintains that Casserly should be credited at least as an average GM. Personally, I give him a B-, I'm sure many people disagree.

Time line: Resigned somewhere around May 11th, 2006.
That is AFTER last year draft.
And AFTER we acquired: Cook, Rosenfels, Weaver, Kevin Walter, Jeb Putzier, Mike Flanagan, ND Kalu, Ephraim Salaam, Eric Moulds.
And AFTER we resigned Shante Orr, Dashon Polk, Troy Evans...

If we're gonna credit Kubiak for some of those moves, then we should do the same and give some bad raps to Capers and McNair instead.

Last I checked Robaire Smith helped the ennemy sweep us last year and Gaffney burned Dunta for a TD.

Todd Wade signed a 2 yr contract with the Skins for 6.2M including 3.5M guaranteed. Maybe Casserly went back there and works behind the scene! :wild:

Other guys still have job, including Morency who was elevated to starter (until the Packers change their mind, if they will.)

And here's an interesting BIO from his recent employer. Enjoy (or read and weep, your choice).


http://http://sportsline.com/cbssports/team/ccasserly

eriadoc
04-24-2007, 05:31 PM
I don't know if we need a new thread for Casserly.
Anyhow, I'm one who maintains that Casserly should be credited at least as an average GM. Personally, I give him a B-, I'm sure many people disagree.

Time line: Resigned somewhere around May 11th, 2006.
That is AFTER last year draft.
And AFTER we acquired: Cook, Rosenfels, Weaver, Kevin Walter, Jeb Putzier, Mike Flanagan, ND Kalu, Ephraim Salaam, Eric Moulds.
And AFTER we resigned Shante Orr, Dashon Polk, Troy Evans...

If we're gonna credit Kubiak for some of those moves, then we should do the same and give some bad raps to Capers and McNair instead.

Last I checked Robaire Smith helped the ennemy sweep us last year and Gaffney burned Dunta for a TD.

Todd Wade signed a 2 yr contract with the Skins for 6.2M including 3.5M guaranteed. Maybe Casserly went back there and works behind the scene! :wild:

Other guys still have job, including Morency who was elevated to starter (until the Packers change their mind, if they will.)

And here's an interesting BIO from his recent employer. Enjoy (or read and weep, your choice).


http://http://sportsline.com/cbssports/team/ccasserly

Personally, I don't discredit Casserly for the talent evaluation part of his job. I think he probably did about as well as many GMs would have done. I put a great deal of blame on Capers and his staff for failing to develop some of the guys (not all). I think it's clear by now that at least a few of those guys were more talented than what was shown while wearing a Texans uni.

However, Casserly absolutely killed the team with the money side of his deals. I realize he may have been handcuffed a bit with trying to lure players to an expansion team, but still, he gave up way too much in the Buchanon deal. He gave up way too much to acquire Babin. He spent way too much on Wade. He spent too much on Greenwood. He gave too much money to Gary Walker at the end of his Texans career. I don't recall the specifics of the Robaire Smith deal, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that he overpaid him as well.

CC had a willingness to gamble on a guy, which isn't entirely a bad thing. The difference when you do that with a Capers-led staff on an expansion team with little surrounding talent vs. when you do that with a team that has an established base of talent is monumental.

76Texan
04-24-2007, 06:20 PM
Personally, I don't discredit Casserly for the talent evaluation part of his job. I think he probably did about as well as many GMs would have done. I put a great deal of blame on Capers and his staff for failing to develop some of the guys (not all). I think it's clear by now that at least a few of those guys were more talented than what was shown while wearing a Texans uni.

However, Casserly absolutely killed the team with the money side of his deals. I realize he may have been handcuffed a bit with trying to lure players to an expansion team, but still, he gave up way too much in the Buchanon deal. He gave up way too much to acquire Babin. He spent way too much on Wade. He spent too much on Greenwood. He gave too much money to Gary Walker at the end of his Texans career. I don't recall the specifics of the Robaire Smith deal, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that he overpaid him as well.

CC had a willingness to gamble on a guy, which isn't entirely a bad thing. The difference when you do that with a Capers-led staff on an expansion team with little surrounding talent vs. when you do that with a team that has an established base of talent is monumental.The points that you mentioned, I agreed with for the most part. I actually gave him a C, borderline C+, but with the works he done in the last off-season, I bumped his grade to B-.

Every GM would have to go with the HC's wishes at times.
Ya give the guy a job, he asks for certain resources, got to provide them for him to do the job.

If not for the 2-14 season, nobody would be calling for Casserly's head.
The Texans were moving along better than most can expect from an expansion team.

What I'm thinking is that Capers probably had a certain conversation with both McNair and Casserly and gave them his assertion: "Lemme do it with the guys I want" and you can hang my head if I don't get it done.

If we look at the all-time trades of the Texans, overall, they came out ahead more often than not. And then there were those lower round picks who exceed the normal curve.

I think we overemphasized the cap problem a little bit.
Sure, we were among the biggest spenders. But you gave the reason right there.
It's not Casserly's fault that Capers took a 7 win team, with added power, and came up with two wins.

Texans_Chick
04-26-2007, 03:40 PM
Interesting thing from the GM presser (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/Story.asp?story_id=3310):


(on improving the pass rush in this offseason) “I think one of the things that you’re not factoring into the equation that I put a lot of stock in is the addition of (defensive line coach) Jethro Franklin and (senior defensive assistant) Frank Bush working with the defensive linemen that we have already. I think we’re going to be a better group with those two guys working with them. I think (DE) Mario Williams as a healthy player this year will be better and create more pass rush. But I don’t think, that is an area obviously that we have looked at.”

Ew. A couple of thoughts:

1. Kinda throws Karmelowicz under the bus a little.

2. You know, I am not terribly comfortable when the GM talks about coaching being an upgrade to a position. Imagine that. [Carr, offensive line, Pbuch, oh the horror].

76Texan
04-26-2007, 05:52 PM
Not necessarily. With Karm's health concern, you got new guy(s) in. Got to welcome them. After all, the two youngsters Maddox and Thomas Johnson were performing quite decent last year.

Double Barrel
04-26-2007, 06:01 PM
If we look at the all-time trades of the Texans, overall, they came out ahead more often than not. And then there were those lower round picks who exceed the normal curve.

I don't know, man...we got hosed in the Buchanan deal, IMO.

76Texan
04-26-2007, 06:02 PM
I don't know, man...we got hosed in the Buchanan deal, IMO.

that is just one incident.

Texans_Chick
04-26-2007, 08:05 PM
that is just one incident.

Agreed.

Yeah, and there was only one iceberg.

Signed,
Captain Edward John Smith

Texans Horror
04-28-2007, 05:35 PM
Amobi just added another first-rounder to the defensive line. Can you imagine the "talent" on the line (front seven) right now?

Babin - first-rounder
Amobi - first-rounder
TJ - first-rounder
Mario Williams - no. 1 pick.
Demeco - second rounder

This is the x year in a row when the Texans drafted defense first. This signals a few things to me:

1. I think it's safe to say TJ is a bust. JMO.
2. Defensive Coordinator is in the hot seat to produce. He has one of the most talented group of defensive linemen in the NFL.
3. Defense had better stop the pass, because the defensive backs are probably not getting much help this year.
4. LT? Maybe something in the third round, but I doubt it...

76Texan
04-28-2007, 06:25 PM
Agreed.

Yeah, and there was only one iceberg.

Signed,
Captain Edward John Smith
I don't think that PB was the one who sank the ship. If anything, it would be Capers wanting Riley at LT and his melt down with Coleman that had more of an effect on the season. And injuries.

At any rate, PB played decently for the Bucs last year and was resigned for 2 years at $5M in March. It would be strange for anybody to take a bust and give him that kind of money.

Buffi2
04-28-2007, 06:35 PM
If anything, it would be Capers wanting Riley at LT

Every time I see the name Riley, I get nauseous. That was an all time huge error in judgment. :gun:

76Texan
04-28-2007, 06:37 PM
Every time I see the name Riley, I get nauseous. That was an all time huge error in judgment. :gun:
It was huge alrite, especially when you heard he said he can eat now that he's now longer in NO, where they wouldnt let him.

Koolaid Time
04-28-2007, 07:33 PM
Just curious... how much input did Fangio have in those bad draft picks?

Scooter
04-28-2007, 08:37 PM
Just curious... how much input did Fangio have in those bad draft picks?

ouch. that's a question i've never considered ... my head hurts just thinking about it. i cant really pinpoint any "fangio" picks, but i'm willing to bet that he was one lobbying for babin.

the wonger need food
04-28-2007, 08:45 PM
that is just one incident.

If you don't count the time that we traded down with New Orleans who took a Pro Bowl tackle with our pick.

Or the time we gave up tons of draft picks to trade back into the 1st round for Babin.


The only time we've ever gotten over was by trading Drew Henson to Dallas.

76Texan
04-28-2007, 08:58 PM
If you don't count the time that we traded down with New Orleans who took a Pro Bowl tackle with our pick.

Or the time we gave up tons of draft picks to trade back into the 1st round for Babin.


The only time we've ever gotten over was by trading Drew Henson to Dallas.

who the other team got for the slot we drafted Babin?

but really, we need to go back and analyze each and every move the Texans made to come up with the final score.

from the expansion draft (a meager pool at that) and so on.
like I said before, maybe we ought to have a new thread for Casserly.
Rid of the misinformations and yeah I hate his hair or the way he speaks.
And truly rate him as what he did right and wrong, without the influence from the national media whom we all know, is all about sexy and hypes.

Scooter
04-28-2007, 09:02 PM
If you don't count the time that we traded down with New Orleans who took a Pro Bowl tackle with our pick.

Or the time we gave up tons of draft picks to trade back into the 1st round for Babin.


The only time we've ever gotten over was by trading Drew Henson to Dallas.

i'm at a loss, were there any other significant trades in the capers era? i only remember henson, babin, travis johnson, and buchannon. henson's the only one that actually worked and that one was 90% luck.

hindsight:
babin ... ben troupe, randy starks, bo schobel
buchannon ... stanford routt, andrew walter (although i could throw darts and get better picks ... totupu, thurman, cody, darrent williams, & khalif barnes available)
travis johnson ... OBVIOUSLY derrick johnson. this one still stings, and will for atleast 5 more years.

the wonger need food
04-28-2007, 10:35 PM
travis johnson ... OBVIOUSLY derrick johnson. this one still stings, and will for atleast 5 more years.

Jamaal Brown is twice the player that Derrick Johnson is.

Honoring Earl 34
04-28-2007, 10:48 PM
Jamaal Brown is twice the player that Derrick Johnson is.

You know for all the crap that was said ... you're probably right . I was leaning toward 1.5 times better .

Scooter
04-28-2007, 10:55 PM
Jamaal Brown is twice the player that Derrick Johnson is.

wouldnt change my pick, i take derrick johnson then and today ... especially with this team. derrick johnson is the pick even in my hindsight. imagine DJ's perfomance on any team but kansas city (arguably the worst defense to possibly play for) and he's an "oooh aaah" player, and an easy probowler too.

Maddict5
04-28-2007, 11:27 PM
hindsight:
babin ... ben troupe, randy starks, bo schobel
buchannon ... stanford routt, andrew walter (although i could throw darts and get better picks ... totupu thurmanalcoholic, off-field problems caused by it- might never play again for the bengals, , cody, darrent williamsumm.. no comment, & khalif barnesDUI problems, supposed locker-room cancer available)
travis johnson ... OBVIOUSLY derrick johnson. this one still stings, and will for atleast 5 more years.

totally off-topic but some of that is worse than TJ