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Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 08:18 AM
Decision 2007: Who will try to break the left tackle jinx in 2007?????

Jordan Black: Versatile young guy who filled in for KC. Allowed a lot of sacks but not so many that KC missed the playoffs. KC let him go away though, and note their problems on the line now, so you gotta wonder.

Ephraam Salaam: Versatile old guy. Held down the fort after Spencer went down. Mentor, locker room guy. You wonder about injuries.

Eric Winston: Looked OK at right tackle last year in limited play. He prefers playing left tackle and thought that is what he would be playing in the league. Shortish arms. Had a knee injury that he says doesn't bother him one bit. Really confident guy.

Chester Pitts: Coaches like him at guard. Played an adequate left tackle.

Charles Spencer: Had a lot of promise before his injury in the second game of the season. Questionable about whether he can return by the season and what sort of ability he could have this quick with the sort of injury he had.

Draft: Levi Brown, Joe Staley with a trade down, or someone else?

What I think will happen:

I think Black will get the left tackle spot, with Winston at right tackle and Salaam as swing tackle.

I do not like the idea of relying too much on Salaam because I'm not sure how he is going to hold up.

I have mentally written off Spencer for the season. If he returns it will be gravy, but I suspect from what we've heard publicly that he is a long shot. If the Texans raise questions about an injury in the paper, it is usually worse than what they are letting on.

I do not believe that the Texans will draft tackle, but it wouldn't surprise me given the Texans options.

I wonder a lot about the Texans' evaluation of offensive line personnel. The center position experimentation last year was a joke. For all the discussion of Sherman as an offensive line master, most of his experience was in college, the same with Benton. Sherman as talent evaluator is something that GB fans questioned for a while.

Dallas_Texan
04-17-2007, 08:50 AM
Great Thread.


I can see that happening, but if the FO is expecting Spencer to come back about halfway through the season, then I think it will be pure competition between Black and Salaam, and they won't care about whether or not Salaam holds up. (they'll care, but it won't be a concern) I like Salaam/Winston for the first 4 games, then Black/Winston until Spencer returns. If Spencer ever returns I think that Spencer Pitts Weary Winston will be a helluva O-line, but we will have to get a great Center next year. I think it will be ok for now, b/c as Kubiak said, we're building for a 2009 Playoff run. Not 2007 or 2008.

As far as talent evaluation for the O-line, the only thing we have to go on so far from Sherman's picks are Charles Spencer and Eric Winston. So, I can't say I see anything to make me worry yet.

As for Black, he could be put on Sherman, but you have to understand....of the 9 sacks he gave up last year, 4 were in his first game, and after that he only gave up 5 sacks all season. He's also young, and can be coached to get better, so I'm not too about him. I think he will add good depth, and we got him at a cheap price.

I think this just shows us that we're on the right track. We didn't want to waste money signing a huge name LT for three years if we believe that Spencer will return, and no big name LT's want to sign for just one year. I honestly think Black was the best option we had for the money. Everything that's being done currently shows us that Kubes and Co really does have a big picture in mind, and I think we will all be pleasantly surprised when we see it unfold. Whether we go 7-9 or 9-7 this year doesn't matter, but I think we may see 9-7.

Bradster592
04-17-2007, 08:55 AM
I'd like to see Jordan Black starting at LT. I'd also agree that Spencer bouncing back to play this season is unlikely.

Scooter
04-17-2007, 09:03 AM
It's really hard to guess at this point because of all of the possible scenarios and we have no information on spencer. i'm wondering if the reason we hear nothing about spencer's injury is to keep other teams guessing leading up to the draft. in my ideal world we bypass levi brown in favor of laron landry or reggie nelson in the draft, and expect spencer to be come off of the PUP or sooner (i'd even consider next year in this regard, if he's expected to fully recover). if that's the case i'd suggest starting salaam to keep a sense of consistancy and yall know i couldnt be higher on spencer ... if he can play, he's our left tackle.

if we go in with what we have, no spencer and no draft (first off, we'd be in a lot of trouble) ... i give the job to black and be quick to yank him in favor of salaam if he struggles.

if we're certain that spencer's career is done, or that his mobility is going to be severely hampered ... you take a left tackle with the first pick regardless of how big of a reach it is.

Vinny
04-17-2007, 09:17 AM
NOBODY had Spencer on our draft radar before the draft last year...so, I'll make a prediction after the draft. :pirate:

infantrycak
04-17-2007, 09:22 AM
I think it will be ok for now, b/c as Kubiak said, we're building for a 2009 Playoff run. Not 2007 or 2008.

When did Kubiak say that? Can't believe any coach would say he needs three seasons to get 4 more wins.

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 09:25 AM
NOBODY had Spencer on our draft radar before the draft last year...so, I'll make a prediction after the draft. :pirate:

The DeMeco pick happened at the end of the draft party. They let the party go a little longer to get the pick in.

People were pissed that: 1. the Texans didn't let any time go off the clock before Ryans was picked; 2. They didn't pick Eric Winston.

Bwahaha and arrrrrgh....:vinny:

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 09:26 AM
When did Kubiak say that? Can't believe any coach would say he needs three seasons to get 4 more wins.

This is the quote:

"Our supporting cast isn't good enough right now, and we're not going to put everything on [quarterback] Matt [Schaub]. We feel good about our recent drafts and our offseason moves, but we still need a couple more drafts and off seasons before we're a playoff caliber team. We see Matt as one piece of the puzzle."

Dallas_Texan
04-17-2007, 09:28 AM
When did Kubiak say that? Can't believe any coach would say he needs three seasons to get 4 more wins.

It was during an interview on the radio. I'll try to find where it was sourced. It's from the "other MB" :embarrass

Vinny
04-17-2007, 09:34 AM
This is the quote:

"Our supporting cast isn't good enough right now, and we're not going to put everything on [quarterback] Matt [Schaub]. We feel good about our recent drafts and our offseason moves, but we still need a couple more drafts and off seasons before we're a playoff caliber team. We see Matt as one piece of the puzzle." That doesn't mean he doesn't see us making the playoffs and losing in the first round. He may not consider that "playoff caliber" ie a team that can win in the playoffs. I'm sure he thinks that this team can qualify for the playoffs in the mean time.

Hervoyel
04-17-2007, 09:38 AM
This is the quote:

"Our supporting cast isn't good enough right now, and we're not going to put everything on [quarterback] Matt [Schaub]. We feel good about our recent drafts and our offseason moves, but we still need a couple more drafts and off seasons before we're a playoff caliber team. We see Matt as one piece of the puzzle."

Based on that quote I wouldn't say that entirely excludes the possibility of playoff runs prior to 2009. Lots of teams make it into the playoffs before they peak and the Texans are no different.

On the LT subject I'm with Vinny. Once the draft is over I'll have a better idea what to think about this. If the Texans don't move on a LT in the draft then I think your scenario seems most likely.

I have always been a "put Chester at LG and let him get started on his transition to being a Pro Bowl LG" person but I'm at the point now where if Chester Pitts is the best LT on the team then I just want to see him line up there. I know that's not going to happen (and I understand completely why it won't) but I can't get the thought out of my mind that Pitts is likely a better LT than Salaam or Black.

Winston needs to stay on the right side. He's going to be very good there for a very long time.

texasguy346
04-17-2007, 09:39 AM
NOBODY had Spencer on our draft radar before the draft last year...so, I'll make a prediction after the draft. :pirate:

If anything many thought Spencer was the opposite of what type of linemen Kubiak would be looking for since he is a rather large fellow & had issues with his weight at Pitt. So he definately was a surprise pick. You can chalk up Daniels as a surprise pick as well. I had not heard much of anything about him until we drafted him. I thought for sure we were going to pick up Ko Simpson in round 4. I'm sure glad the Texans grabbed Owen now.

BTW If the Texans draft a Baylor player (Sepulveda, Arline, Wilson, Ziegler) I'll type in green for a good long while.

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 09:44 AM
That doesn't mean he doesn't see us making the playoffs and losing in the first round. He may not consider that "playoff caliber" ie a team that can win in the playoffs. I'm sure he thinks that this team can qualify for the playoffs in the mean time.

I was just guessing where that came from.

Kaiser Toro
04-17-2007, 09:47 AM
This is the quote:

"Our supporting cast isn't good enough right now, and we're not going to put everything on [quarterback] Matt [Schaub]. We feel good about our recent drafts and our offseason moves, but we still need a couple more drafts and off seasons before we're a playoff caliber team. We see Matt as one piece of the puzzle."

I would need to see the entire transcript, but that appears to be a challenge to the team and potential leaders jockeying for the locker room megaphone. In the past that would have fallen on deaf ears in my opinion.

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 09:52 AM
I would need to see the entire transcript, but that appears to be a challenge to the team and potential leaders jockeying for the locker room megaphone. In the past that would have fallen on deaf ears in my opinion.

No transcript available. It was part of an SI article where Kubiak was talking about the upcoming season.

Personally, I think it was a way to diminish expectations of Matt Schaub = instant savior of the Texans.

When Kubiak was first hired, McNair was saying stuff like David Carr will take the Texans to the Super Bowl. When Kubiak was asked about that stuff, he said, no Carr is a QB that could be on a Super Bowl team, but no one player can take you to the Super Bowl, that this is too much to put on a person. A subtle but important distinction.

Porky
04-17-2007, 10:14 AM
Nice analysis in the first post by TC.

Unless they are convinced Spencer comes back this year at close to 100%, I don't think they will rely on the likes of Salaam and Black. Just don't see it. I see them taking Levi Brown or Joe Staley in round one. There is a good chance Brown will be gone by the time they pick, but Staley will likely be available.

I guess the other idea is to either move Pitts back over, or see what Winston can do there. Long term, I prefer Winston inside, with Spencer at RT or vice versa. I think Winston's short arms hurt him at tackle.

Vinny
04-17-2007, 10:20 AM
Winston is too tall to be a good Guard in my opinion...he isn't even built like a Guard...they gotta have a lot of junk in the trunk to anchor in vs those big thick interior NFL interior linemen....he is built more like a Tackle. Salaam played well last year...I don't know why we would draft a Tackle early when we signed two Vets and have two first year, first day players at tackle also. I don't see us carrying 5 Tackles.

Kaiser Toro
04-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Winston is too tall to be a good Guard in my opinion...he isn't even built like a Guard...they gotta have a lot of junk in the trunk to anchor in vs those big thick interior NFL interior linemen....he is built more like a Tackle.

By no means a rule, but how many TE's get converted to T and then to G. His body and mentality is best suited on the edge in my opinion.

I would like to see the guy settle in at RT and man that position for the next ten years.

infantrycak
04-17-2007, 10:38 AM
That doesn't mean he doesn't see us making the playoffs and losing in the first round. He may not consider that "playoff caliber" ie a team that can win in the playoffs. I'm sure he thinks that this team can qualify for the playoffs in the mean time.

Exactly--there is a huge difference from being a team everyone expects to get into the playoffs and possibly make a deep run like Indy and being a contender like the Jags who have been in or at the cusp recently.

Errant Hothy
04-17-2007, 10:38 AM
If anything many thought Spencer was the opposite of what type of linemen Kubiak would be looking for since he is a rather large fellow & had issues with his weight at Pitt. So he definately was a surprise pick.

And yet some people still say that Brown would not fit the system here.

As for Black, he could be put on Sherman, but you have to understand....of the 9 sacks he gave up last year, 4 were in his first game, and after that he only gave up 5 sacks all season. He's also young, and can be coached to get better, so I'm not too about him. I think he will add good depth, and we got him at a cheap price.

Nice factoid there.

It's going to be interesting to see what happens during the draft along the O-line.

michaelm
04-17-2007, 12:16 PM
if we're certain that spencer's career is done, or that his mobility is going to be severely hampered ... you take a left tackle with the first pick regardless of how big of a reach it is.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.....

You DO NOT take even Staley at #10. He won't be even close to BPA at that spot, and with the needs of this team, you go BPA in the first without question.
There is only one realistic LT prospect at 10 and that's Levi Brown. Other than that (if Thomas and Brown are gone), BPA unless you have another guy who is very close to your BPA in grade, but at a position of MUCH greater need.

Goldensilence
04-17-2007, 12:18 PM
The lack of information regaurding Spencer does make me nervous. I just don't wantto end up in the exact same situation last year we did in regaurding to Dominack.

Personally i Prefer the idea of Drafting Levi with the top pick. The combo of Sallaam and Black could get us through the season but afterwards we're right back to square one. Unless Spencer is projected to make it back during the season or ready to go the year after i'd rather not deal with the scenario. I'd prefer Brown over Staley but Staley is shoulders above anyone we'd get with the 3rd rounder.

I hope Winston stays at RT i think he has to tools to really solidfy that spot for a long time for our team.A new Center would be nice though. Maybe Moses will be around in the 4th when we come up.

Dallas_Texan
04-17-2007, 12:45 PM
That doesn't mean he doesn't see us making the playoffs and losing in the first round. He may not consider that "playoff caliber" ie a team that can win in the playoffs. I'm sure he thinks that this team can qualify for the playoffs in the mean time.

Fair enough...

Dallas_Texan
04-17-2007, 01:00 PM
Winston is too tall to be a good Guard in my opinion...he isn't even built like a Guard...they gotta have a lot of junk in the trunk to anchor in vs those big thick interior NFL interior linemen....he is built more like a Tackle. Salaam played well last year...I don't know why we would draft a Tackle early when we signed two Vets and have two first year, first day players at tackle also. I don't see us carrying 5 Tackles.

Couldn't agree more. There is no way we take a tackle in the first day. There is definitely no way that we would take Levi Brown with a number 10 pick. He's worth a #16-20 at best. The only reason he's rated top 10 is b/c of lack of options. And whoever was suggesting we take Staley if Brown was gone at 10 is smoking something lethal. But hey, if it goes well with Miller Light! :beerfunnel:

Specnatz
04-17-2007, 01:18 PM
I fully understand the BPA and the BPA/need but my question has to do with this thread.

Spencer = Unknown hurt/not hurt when will he be ready to go???

Winston = Played ok late at RT but can he be a LT maybe but he has not played that position in the NFL so it is a ?

Salaam = Did not humaliate himself last year but he is not a world beater here.

Black = Played LT all last season for the Chefs and gave up a lot of sacks (not the most in the league but still). He is the guy you wanting protecting your new QB who you just gave away picks for and signed to a new contract .

There is no guarantee of a trade down. What I am questioning, is yes the Texans have many holes and yes to go deep the team needs many holes. No one here seems to be happy with the line or saying wow I love our line. Yet you do not want to take any in the draft? Do you think you can find a Lineman in the third be it Tackle, Gaurd or Center.

I am still in the draft Levi brown camp if he is there.

Porky
04-17-2007, 01:40 PM
Winston is too tall to be a good Guard in my opinion...he isn't even built like a Guard...they gotta have a lot of junk in the trunk to anchor in vs those big thick interior NFL interior linemen....he is built more like a Tackle. Salaam played well last year...I don't know why we would draft a Tackle early when we signed two Vets and have two first year, first day players at tackle also. I don't see us carrying 5 Tackles.

Winston and Spencer are both tweeners to me, that's why I said or vice versa, becaue I could also see Spencer as a really good RG, with Winston at RT. I just feel his arms are short, and because of that he might have some trouble redirecting, or with speed rushers.

As to the rest of your post - Well, if you trust that Spencer is coming back healthy, that's more trust than I have.

Black would be ok as a stop gap starter, but I like him better as a good depth lineman who can play 4 spots.

Salaam - Adequate at best, and barely at that imo.

Winston - ??? Never played there in the pros, so let's turn him loose there now?

The way I view it, LT is the second most important position on offense. Others may disagree. But, I don't want to leave that spot to chance. We need to make sure that Schaub stays upright as much as possible, and give him and our backs a chance to succeed.

To me, it's like insurance. Say we take Brown or Staley. Also say Spencer comes back and has an incredible recovery and is ready to go day one.

How is that a bad thing? You have all sorts of options. Spencer at RG could be nasty. Have Brown/Staley - Pitts - Mckinney - Spencer - Winston

That is a good line, with the one weakness being the pass blocking at center. I don't see why we would take a chance. I guess I take a contrarian view on this.

Lastly - yes I said Staley. He is shooting up the boards. Brown won't last past 10, and he likely goes to Miami or another team before that. I take him if he falls to 10, but I doubt he makes it that far. I don't think Staley at #10 is a reach, although I would much prefer to trade down and pick him up.

infantrycak
04-17-2007, 01:58 PM
Winston - ??? Never played there in the pros, so let's turn him loose there now?

Then what is the point in taking any player in the draft who may need a year or two to develop? By that rationale, the next year you are just going to use a higher draft pick to fill the same hole.

WaywardTexanFan
04-17-2007, 03:12 PM
I would like to see JB at LT but hey I am prejudice.

281
04-17-2007, 03:17 PM
I don't think Staley at #10 is a reach, although I would much prefer to trade down and pick him up.

it's a reach if we pick him at #10, no matter what. i have faith in rick smith that he'll draft the BPA at #10 if we stay at that spot.

Chance_C
04-17-2007, 03:19 PM
The way I view it, LT is the second most important position on offense. Others may disagree. But, I don't want to leave that spot to chance

Hey, thanks!!

Hagar
04-17-2007, 04:45 PM
Out of the men we have on the roster right now, I'd like to see Winston step up and take control of that position.

Salaam: Did well last year when he wasn't hurt, and is probably the odds on favorite going into camp.
Black: Just don't see it happening at the LT position. Flat out doesn't have the athletic ability for the LT position.
Spencer: My gut tells me this guy will not play another down of football so this is a “believe it when I see it” player.
Winston: Projected as a LT when he came out of Miami. Winston has short arms but was supposed to have the athletic ability and mentality to play the position. Becasue I touted this guy so much, I was very disappointed in his performance last season. Not that Winston did badly, it was just my expectations for him. (I’ve never put too much stock in the whole “long arms” requirement for LTs. If you have the athletic ability to stay in front of the defender, who cares how long your arms are.)

Depending on who’s on the board at the time, I'd like to see us move down the draft board, pick up a second round pick, then take Staley or Reggie Nelson later in the draft. From what I‘ve red I both players have a bit of nasty streak, which I like.

76Texan
04-17-2007, 05:11 PM
No transcript available. It was part of an SI article where Kubiak was talking about the upcoming season.

Personally, I think it was a way to diminish expectations of Matt Schaub = instant savior of the Texans.

When Kubiak was first hired, McNair was saying stuff like David Carr will take the Texans to the Super Bowl. When Kubiak was asked about that stuff, he said, no Carr is a QB that could be on a Super Bowl team, but no one player can take you to the Super Bowl, that this is too much to put on a person. A subtle but important distinction.I agree with that.

Well, the guy I'd like for the Texans to go after was McIntosh.
He was signed by the Chiefs (6 yr, unknownterm.)
The raiders brought Black in for a visit, and from what I read a back-up spot.
Even though the Raiders offer a bit more money than the Texans, Black decided to go back to Texas, where he's from.

Some writer in KC actually says that Black may be a little more athletic than MIntosh(?) Possibly.

But I believe Black total number last year was 13 sacks allowed (4 in 1 game, and 9 in the other 14 starts) and 5 penalties.
By any account, the numbers were worse than Salaam's, injured and all.

But it was his first stint at LT in the pro, so hopefully he can improve like Pitts did.

For the sake of continuity, I think Kubiak will leave Winston at RT, and let Black and Salaam goes at it at LT.

I'm also prepared not to see Spencer, but certainly hope that the the Texans' luck turn around soon. Maybe Bud put a curse on us! :brickwall:

Runner
04-17-2007, 05:22 PM
As for Black, he could be put on Sherman, but you have to understand....of the 9 sacks he gave up last year, 4 were in his first game, and after that he only gave up 5 sacks all season. He's also young, and can be coached to get better, so I'm not too about him. I think he will add good depth, and we got him at a cheap price.

Nice factoid there.


Nicer had it been correct. gtexan02 had done good research in this thread. Oops, I can't make the link work. Search on threads started by gtexan02, the date was 3-8-2007. I put the whole post in message 36 of this thread.


Free Agent Acquisitions:
Jordan Black - 16 games, started 15.
1 False Start
3 Holdings
13 Sacks Allowed

Lots of sacks, 4 penalties. The board pretty much labeled an LT on the Texans roster a bust after putting up better numbers than these his first year starting. I'm just not enthused about Jordan Black - "he plays multiple positions" doesn't do it for me when we need a left tackle.

Porky
04-17-2007, 05:42 PM
Then what is the point in taking any player in the draft who may need a year or two to develop? By that rationale, the next year you are just going to use a higher draft pick to fill the same hole.

I just feel that the coaches like him on the right side, and I don't think we need to be experimenting at this point, at least not in the regular season. Sure, try him out at the camps, but we have to make a decision now. We don't draft after training camp. I think it's leaving it up to hope and chance if we don't draft anyone. I don't see why a Levi Brown or Joe Staley would need two years to develop into a starter.

As an aside, I saw a rumor today that we are highly interested in Ted Ginn Jr, and that we are VERY strongly interested in trading down in round 1 if we can find a partner.

To me Ginn = Hester

Not a bad thing, but I am leery of his hammies.

Runner
04-17-2007, 05:44 PM
Not a bad thing, but I am leery of his hammies.

So are defensive backs... :)

Runner
04-17-2007, 05:50 PM
For post 33:
Well I never had heard of this site until Runner posted it in the Black thread, so I thought I'd bring the info here. Stats don't mean everything, especially with OL, but they do begin to give you a picture. Here they are:

Tackles:
Ephraim Salaam - 15 games, started 14.
4 False Starts
0 Holdings
7.5 Sacks Allowed

Charles Spencer - 2 games, started 2.
1 False Start
0 Holdings
1 Sack Allowed

Eric Winston - 12 games, started 7.
1 False Start
1 Holding
2.5 Sacks Allowed

Zach Wiegart (no longer on team) - 9 games, started 9.
1 False Start
3 Holdings
3.75 Sacks Allowed

Brad Bedel - 9 games, started 0.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
2 Sacks Allowed

Guards
Chester Pitts - 16 games, started 16
3 False Starts
3 Holdings
4.75 Sacks Allowed

Fred Weary - 15 games, started 12.
3 False Starts
1 Holding
3.0 Sacks Allowed

Scott Jackson - 0 games, started 0.
No stats

Centers
Steve McKinney - 16 games, started 6.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
0.5 Sacks Allowed

Drew Hodgdon - 7 games, started 5.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
3 Sacks Allowed

Mike Flanagan - 9 games, started 9.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
0.75 Sacks Allowed

Free Agent Acquisitions:
Jordan Black - 16 games, started 15.
1 False Start
3 Holdings
13 Sacks Allowed

Here is what I can conclude. Out of our tackles, Eric Winston was statistically the best. He didn't play every game, so its tough to get a good read, but he seemed to do pretty well for a rookie on a broken line.

Both our guards were comparable to their expensive FA counterparts. Both gave up a few more sacks than the FAs, but not any huge increase

As for centers, Hodgdon isn't even comparable to the other two.

Ex-Texans
Seth Wand - 7 games, started 0.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
0 Sacks Allowed

Todd Wade - 3 games, started 1.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
0 Sacks Allowed

Milford Brown - 13 games, started 12.
0 False Starts
0 Holdings
2 Sacks Allowed


Other Teams Free Agents Signed This FA Period That We Didn't Target
Eric Steinbach - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Denver)
5 False Starts
0 Holdings
3.5 Sacks Allowed

Kris Dielman - OG - 15 games, started 15. (Signed with San Diego)
2 False Starts
1 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Leonard Davis - LT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Dallas)
9 False Starts
2 Holdings
8 Sacks Allowed

Derrick Dockery - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
6 False Starts
1 Holding
3 Sacks Allowed

Tony Pashos - RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Jacksonville)
3 False Starts
0 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Luke Petitgout - RT - 9 games, started 9. (signed with Tampa)
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4.5 Sacks Allowed

Jon Stinchcomb - LT/RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with New Orleans)
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4 Sacks Allowed

Langston Walker - T - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
5 False Starts
3 Holdings
10.75 Sacks Allowed

I'm not sure what all these other players received in terms of $$$, but take from it what you will. I'm not sure why we didn't show interest in more FAs out there. There weren't many great ones, but there were a few that we seemed to miss out on.

PS: Feel free to add anyone I missed to this list

Specnatz
04-17-2007, 06:32 PM
Other Teams Free Agents Signed This FA Period That We Didn't Target

Eric Steinbach - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Denver)
[7 yr 49.5 Mill]
5 False Starts
0 Holdings
3.5 Sacks Allowed

Kris Dielman - OG - 15 games, started 15. (Signed with San Diego)
[6 year deal]
2 False Starts
1 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Leonard Davis - LT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Dallas)
[7 year 49.6 Mill]
9 False Starts
2 Holdings
8 Sacks Allowed

Derrick Dockery - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
[7 year 49 Mill]
6 False Starts
1 Holding
3 Sacks Allowed

Tony Pashos - RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Jacksonville)
[5 years]
3 False Starts
0 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Luke Petitgout - RT - 9 games, started 9. (signed with Tampa)
[3 year 15.5 Mill]
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4.5 Sacks Allowed

Jon Stinchcomb - LT/RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with New Orleans)
[2 year deal]
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4 Sacks Allowed

Langston Walker - T - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
[5 year 25 Mill]
5 False Starts
3 Holdings
10.75 Sacks Allowed

At the time the Texans did not have a lot of cap space and had to use the money sparringly and wisely. not to mention not all of these players fit Kubiacks system. (no I can not tell you which ones).

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 06:33 PM
I just feel that the coaches like him on the right side, and I don't think we need to be experimenting at this point, at least not in the regular season. Sure, try him out at the camps, but we have to make a decision now. We don't draft after training camp. I think it's leaving it up to hope and chance if we don't draft anyone. I don't see why a Levi Brown or Joe Staley would need two years to develop into a starter.

As an aside, I saw a rumor today that we are highly interested in Ted Ginn Jr, and that we are VERY strongly interested in trading down in round 1 if we can find a partner.

To me Ginn = Hester

Not a bad thing, but I am leery of his hammies.

Just because the coaches like Winston on the right side doesn't mean that's the best place for him to play on this team. They put Winston on the right because they really really liked the idea of Spencer on the left, and they had a bunch of guys they were trying on the left--Wand, Spencer, and then Salaam had experience too. It was a logjam in 2006. The dymamics of that aren't the same this year unless the Texans draft a hoss and a half.

These are the same coaches that said that Wand is what they would envision a left tackle to look like, and then later they changed their minds so much that he couldn't get re-signed after injuries happened to the line.

They liked Flanagan at center. And then liked Hodgdon there. And then we had to get negative ten yards rushing to get McKinney in there. (To be fair to Hodgdon, I believe most of his starts were road ones, which can be an easy environment to be getting most of your snaps). I also wonder if there is something about the way the blocking is taught that made for McKinney getting sat--he's not afraid to say stuff but is usually pretty politic. I dunno, it just seemed like there was something going on there that we weren't hearing about.

Personally, the line coaching gives me the willies. This part of Sherman's new bio (http://www.houstontexans.com/team/coach.asp?coach_id=24) gives me the willies:

In his first season with the Texans, Sherman worked with offensive line coach John Benton and had a prominent role in installing a new rushing attack. Under Sherman’s direction, the ground game improved throughout the 2006 season, averaging 122.6 yards per game over the last 11 weeks of the season. Running back Ron Dayne rushed for 429 yards in December, more than any single month in his career, including a career-best 153 yards in a win over Indianapolis.

Both opening-day starters at tackle, Charles Spencer and Zach Wiegert, finished the year on Injured Reserve, as did center Mike Flanagan. Despite that, Sherman and Benton shuffled the line and produced nine games in which the team rushed for better than 100 yards, including two of the three best rushing performances in franchise history—191 yards in a win over Indianapolis and 188 yards versus Buffalo.

No mention of pass blocking in the bio.

No mention, of course, of a negative -10 yard rushing game.

Nice way to finesse how horrible the running game was the first part of the season.

bleh. I am just not feeling terribly optimistic about the line play.

Runner
04-17-2007, 06:57 PM
I am just not feeling terribly optimistic about the line play.

Me neither. I get the feeling it is Salaam with one more year down the hourglass that is the starter.


I note there was no mention of the totally failed passing "attack" that led to the focus on running. I do think McKinney is clearly the best run blocker they have at center.

I don't want "as good as last year". I want an offensive line that can pass block for an NFL offense.

Porky
04-17-2007, 08:55 PM
No mention of pass blocking in the bio.

No mention, of course, of a negative -10 yard rushing game.

Nice way to finesse how horrible the running game was the first part of the season.

bleh. I am just not feeling terribly optimistic about the line play.

You don't feel optimistic about the line play? You felt good enough about it to pass up a likely anchor and 10 year starter for a safety. I don't get it. :confused:

Texans Horror
04-17-2007, 08:58 PM
As long as we're throwing out ideas, here are a couple of screwball ideas before Bullrun starts:

1. Rotate the left tackles. It's been done with lots of other positions. Why not give it a shot? JB needs time to learn, as does any LT taken this year. ES has injury problems, and clearly so does CS (if he shows up - I don't think he will).

2. Pass to Winston trick play. The guy was a starting TE at the U before being converted to LT.

Before you throw any rotten tomatos or anything, just keep in mind I'm trying to be open about opportunities here. I think Sherman and Kubes will have to get creative to make this line work. Nothing has yet.

Runner
04-17-2007, 09:38 PM
As long as we're throwing out ideas, here are a couple of screwball ideas before Bullrun starts:

1. Rotate the left tackles. It's been done with lots of other positions. Why not give it a shot? JB needs time to learn, as does any LT taken this year. ES has injury problems, and clearly so does CS (if he shows up - I don't think he will).


LTs need to be in a rhythm the whole game - actually the whole line needs to be. You rarely see o-lineman rotated. Capers and crew tried it one game in 2004, and even they didn't do it again.

Bullrun: The Lotus just ate the F-150's lunch. Serves those guys right. I hope they get headlights so they don't have to do anything illegal, the tattletale finks.

Texans_Chick
04-17-2007, 09:54 PM
You don't feel optimistic about the line play? You felt good enough about it to pass up a likely anchor and 10 year starter for a safety. I don't get it. :confused:

I believe in BPA.

I believe that there are so many problems with the team that you can't pass up the BPA.

With the Texans, you can't count on any left tackle to be a likely anchor or 10 year starter because the position is cursed. CURSED, I TELL YOU!!!!! :vinny:


sorry, watching lots of bad football has twisted my brain some.

Porky
04-17-2007, 10:02 PM
I believe in BPA.

I believe that there are so many problems with the team that you can't pass up the BPA.

With the Texans, you can't count on any left tackle to be a likely anchor or 10 year starter because the position is cursed. CURSED, I TELL YOU!!!!! :vinny:


sorry, watching lots of bad football has twisted my brain some.

On that I think we definitely agree. :brickwall:

Battle Red Flash
04-18-2007, 01:20 PM
Decision 2007: Who will try to break the left tackle jinx in 2007?????

I say Black, with Salaam backing him up while we wait for Big Nasty to get healthy. I have hope he will make it all the way back.

SESupergenius
04-18-2007, 01:38 PM
I believe in BPA.

I believe that there are so many problems with the team that you can't pass up the BPA.

With the Texans, you can't count on any left tackle to be a likely anchor or 10 year starter because the position is cursed. CURSED, I TELL YOU!!!!! :vinny:


sorry, watching lots of bad football has twisted my brain some.

I think the BPA is good if your have a few positions that you want to target. We have Safety, Running back, Cornerback, Wide Receiver, and Offensive lineman to choose from. Now if a BPA fit into any of the slots then we take him, otherwise we look for better options (trading down, trading up)

I would hate for us to have B. Quinn fall to us and we select him because he's BPA.

eriadoc
04-18-2007, 02:14 PM
I have been an advocate of taking a LT in the draft for three years now. In reality, I was before that, but for the first couple years there was the lingering good will from the start of the franchise, the hope that Pitts or Wand would work out there, and the unfounded belief that the team could still fix the O-line with late-round gems or free agents.

The LT has been a problem from the day of the expansion draft. Please draft the best available LEFT TACKLE this year.

How people can ignore the tackle play on this team for the past five years is, to me, absolutely mind-blowing. When McKinney was performing really poorly in 2004 and 2005, this board roasted him. When Hodgdon was performing poorly last year, this board wrote him off. Yet the tackle position has consistently underperformed for YEARS, and everytime a sack is given up (even the cut-n-dried ones), it was somehow twisted around to be someone else's fault. The tackle play on this team has been horrid for years. Winston gave signs of hope for the right tackle position last year, but I wonder to myself how much of that hope was simply because we're comparing him to Todd Wade and Zach Wiegert? Those two were turnstiles. So at least Winston did better than they did.

Oh well, it's just frustrating. In 2005, I wanted a tackle, though I really didn't know who, exactly (though we gave the best tackle to the Saints, yay). Last year, I really wanted Ferguson. This year, I want Levi Brown, or maybe Staley. Next year, it'll be Sam Baker. The year after, who knows? /rant off

Texans_Chick
04-18-2007, 02:23 PM
I think the BPA is good if your have a few positions that you want to target. We have Safety, Running back, Cornerback, Wide Receiver, and Offensive lineman to choose from. Now if a BPA fit into any of the slots then we take him, otherwise we look for better options (trading down, trading up)

I would hate for us to have B. Quinn fall to us and we select him because he's BPA.

Well true that, it is always those guidelines or else you wind up being the Detroit Lions.

Errant Hothy
04-18-2007, 02:26 PM
Other Teams Free Agents Signed This FA Period That We Didn't Target

Eric Steinbach - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Denver)
[7 yr 49.5 Mill]
5 False Starts
0 Holdings
3.5 Sacks Allowed

Kris Dielman - OG - 15 games, started 15. (Signed with San Diego)
[6 year deal]
2 False Starts
1 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Leonard Davis - LT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Dallas)
[7 year 49.6 Mill]
9 False Starts
2 Holdings
8 Sacks Allowed

Derrick Dockery - OG - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
[7 year 49 Mill]
6 False Starts
1 Holding
3 Sacks Allowed

Tony Pashos - RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Jacksonville)
[5 years]
3 False Starts
0 Holding
2 Sacks Allowed

Luke Petitgout - RT - 9 games, started 9. (signed with Tampa)
[3 year 15.5 Mill]
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4.5 Sacks Allowed

Jon Stinchcomb - LT/RT - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with New Orleans)
[2 year deal]
3 False Starts
0 Holdings
4 Sacks Allowed

Langston Walker - T - 16 games, started 16. (Signed with Buffalo)
[5 year 25 Mill]
5 False Starts
3 Holdings
10.75 Sacks Allowed

At the time the Texans did not have a lot of cap space and had to use the money sparringly and wisely. not to mention not all of these players fit Kubiacks system. (no I can not tell you which ones).

And none of those guys are projected to start at left tackle, with maybe Petitgout bing the exception; and he's older with soem injury concerns if I'm not mistaken.

SESupergenius
04-18-2007, 04:22 PM
Here's an article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jm-prosconstackles041807&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)on top two tackles in the draft this year. Who knows, we may end up with one.

nunusguy
04-18-2007, 04:25 PM
There is no way we take a tackle in the first day.
I don't think so because the Texans are very anxious to trade back, and if they are successful in making a trade they could end up in a spot where a Joe Staley is the most highly rated player on their Board. Or if they trade back they likely would acquire an additional first day pick which would increase their likelihood of going OT on Saturday. Or somebody like Levi Brown could fall out of the first round. It happens, just consider last year and Winston Justice and our own Eric Winston falling all the way to the third round. Both of those OTs were predicted to be first rounders at very times during the 2005-06 season.
I think this Draft, while not loaded with the super stars of last year, will be very exciting because it will produce a lot of surprises given the willingness of many teams wanting to trade and a lot of uncertainty about the real value of quite a few of the top picks.
We may have a Ryan Harris, or Doug Free, or an Adam Koets rated very highly and be more than willing to use a third round pick to acquire.
And for all we know, the Texans rate Levi Brown himself very highly, even though he doesn't appear to be the typical type OT Kubiak would be interested in drafting, certainly with the 10 overall ?
I put our chances in the 50-50 range for taking an OT first day.

Texan_by_Birth
04-18-2007, 06:37 PM
I would hate for us to have B. Quinn fall to us and we select him because he's BPA.

I am not so certain I would pass on Brady. If we don't fix the line problems we are going to need all the quarterbacks we can get. We were spoiled by David Carr's toughness. Until we can prove that our offensive line can block we can expect to see the sacks keep on coming. And they weren't just coming from the left tackle either. Nothing was as difficult to watch as seeing Carr have to take a five step drop get hit by a defensive tackle almost before he could set his feet.

And that was with defenses cheating outside. It only took a couple of games of watching David Carr roll out to throw for every defense coming in to move their ends and backers outside to contain Carr and dared the Texans to run up the middle. The Texans did have some success against the 29th and 30th ranked defenses against the run but look for that to change. With Carr gone the defenses will probably go back to packing the middle and our running game will go bye-bye.

I just hope our new QB has paid up his life insurance. It is going to be a long, long, long year. And on the bright side, if we do draft Quinn we might be able to trade him at the end of the year, assuming his is still walking, for a real live LT.

Runner
04-18-2007, 08:01 PM
Here's an article (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jm-prosconstackles041807&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)on top two tackles in the draft this year. Who knows, we may end up with one.

Interesting how Brown is heavier, slower, has worse numbers in the "explosive" tests (vertical and broad jump) than Thomas, but he is faster in the short shuttle and three cone drills.

Kaiser Toro
04-18-2007, 08:11 PM
Interesting how Brown is heavier, slower, has worse numbers in the "explosive" tests (vertical and broad jump) than Thomas, but he is faster in the short shuttle and three cone drills.

Measurably I would take Brown over Thomas, specifically around what you pointed out. I do not like the injury and the weight Brown carries. Give me a clean knee and I could see him drafted at 10 rather than us reach with the current state of affairs.

WaywardTexanFan
04-19-2007, 04:31 AM
I say Black, with Salaam backing him up while we wait for Big Nasty to get healthy. I have hope he will make it all the way back.

I would have to agree with BFR, since Thomas will not be around and Brown would not fit our system. Next year appears to be deep with OL. Sam Baker out of USC would be the first choice for next year but he will be gone by the time our first round pick comes around at 27.:doot:

Texans Horror
04-19-2007, 09:54 PM
LTs need to be in a rhythm the whole game - actually the whole line needs to be. You rarely see o-lineman rotated. Capers and crew tried it one game in 2004, and even they didn't do it again.

Bullrun: The Lotus just ate the F-150's lunch. Serves those guys right. I hope they get headlights so they don't have to do anything illegal, the tattletale finks.

I understand, but they need to do something. The current plan seems to be to play two injured guys and I-65. If they aren't going to answer with personnel, they need to get creative. Unfortunately, I think "get creative" is going to mean Green coming after anybody who comes down the left side.

The Bubbas in the F-150 have no brains. I used to think they'd go far, but I don't know anymore. Maybe Wally and the Beaver will go further...

WaywardTexanFan
04-20-2007, 06:00 PM
Interesting tid bit on Spencer

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=HOU

Texans LT Charles Spencer's personal doctor says Spencer is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken leg.

Reports have been mixed on Spencer's rehab, but the club surely knows the true prognosis. With Levi Brown potentially available at No. 10, how far along Spencer is will impact how Houston uses its first-round pick.

Honoring Earl 34
04-20-2007, 06:02 PM
Interesting tid bit on Spencer

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=HOU

Texans LT Charles Spencer's personal doctor says Spencer is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken leg.

Reports have been mixed on Spencer's rehab, but the club surely knows the true prognosis. With Levi Brown potentially available at No. 10, how far along Spencer is will impact how Houston uses its first-round pick.

I think if the Texans pass on Levi ... then Spencer is going to be OK or a Drs going to be fired .

amazingandre
04-21-2007, 09:06 AM
i think spencer will be back to 100 % by the time preseaon ends jmo but i dont think that we should worry...i know the whole dd thing happened last year but his knee was way worse....jmo but i think he will the starter at left tackle by game 3 latest....jb will most likely start for the first 2....

nunusguy
04-21-2007, 11:18 AM
I dunno, but it could be that the Texans may not think either Levi Brown or Joe Staley would represent a real upgrade over what we have on our roster
right now, Black/Saleem, for our system and are no where near being worthy of a 1st round pick ?
And I'm one who thinks that Eric Winston is still a candidate for LT. Because of his outstanding athleticism, it would seem that his forte potentially should be as a pass-blocker ? People have reportedly had reservations about him at LT because of his relatively short-amrs, but curiously this years top-rated college OT, Joe Thomas, has an arm-length that is a grand total of 1/4 of one inch more than Winstons. Where's all the critics of Thomas's short arms ?

Texans Horror
04-21-2007, 11:31 AM
I don't know people. I haven't spoken to doctors, but I've heard second-hand from two different players that Spencer is having a rough time and won't be back for the start of the season, if ever. Take it FWIW.

Specnatz
04-21-2007, 11:55 AM
I would have to agree with BFR, since Thomas will not be around and Brown would not fit our system. Next year appears to be deep with OL. Sam Baker out of USC would be the first choice for next year but he will be gone by the time our first round pick comes around at 27.:doot:

Yaaay I love planning our future on what could be in the draft in 2008 even before the 2007 draft has even taken place.

WaywardTexanFan
04-22-2007, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaywardTexanFan
I would have to agree with BFR, since Thomas will not be around and Brown would not fit our system. Next year appears to be deep with OL. Sam Baker out of USC would be the first choice for next year but he will be gone by the time our first round pick comes around at 27.

Yaaay I love planning our future on what could be in the draft in 2008 even before the 2007 draft has even taken place.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texan_Bill
Mr. Selig, please see a doctor about your cranial, rectum insertion issue...

Maybe I should have placed this disclaimer in my post

"This is a joke; This is only a joke... Should this have been an actual statement you would have been granted permission to get your panties in a wad"

Texans_Chick
04-22-2007, 10:39 AM
Interesting tid bit on Spencer

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/clubhouse_news.aspx?sport=NFL&majteam=HOU

Texans LT Charles Spencer's personal doctor says Spencer is ahead of schedule in his recovery from a broken leg.

Reports have been mixed on Spencer's rehab, but the club surely knows the true prognosis. With Levi Brown potentially available at No. 10, how far along Spencer is will impact how Houston uses its first-round pick.

Personal doctor? What his general practitioner? Yeah whatever.

I won't believe that Spencer is fit and ready to be a player in the NFL again until I actually see him on the field. Big man with a really ugly unusual injury for a football player--I am not sure anyone knows what "ahead of schedule" is for this.

Honoring Earl 34
04-22-2007, 10:49 AM
Personal doctor? What his general practitioner? Yeah whatever.

I won't believe that Spencer is fit and ready to be a player in the NFL again until I actually see him on the field. Big man with a really ugly unusual injury for a football player--I am not sure anyone knows what "ahead of schedule" is for this.

I believe I read that the big issue was ... did the cartlidge survive . This is a black or white thing .

I'm not sure how they test this or how they can tell but I got to think they have an idea .