PDA

View Full Version : Drafting with Vince Young in mind


Marcus
03-26-2007, 01:36 PM
McNair made a comment last season that one of the reasons for drafting Mario, was to put pressure on Manning. As we all know, the jury is still out on the wisdom of that decision. (putting it mildly)

So, taking this year's draft, and if you could choose a player in this draft that would give you the best shot at helping contain Vince's running, who would that be? Afterall, we do play him twice a year.

Landry, Nelson, Willis, Hall, Anderson, . . . who else comes to mind?

kastofsna
03-26-2007, 01:39 PM
take a safety with enough range to snare the many ducks he'll be lobbing up.

threetoedpete
03-26-2007, 01:40 PM
My two canidates for anti Vincent weaponery is Okoye and Black the speedy 240 LB from New Mexico.
Quincy Black http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/profile.php?pyid=61357

12/27/06 - PLAYER OF THE YEAR: Senior lobo back Quincy Black held the defense together while the offense struggled to learn offensive coordinator Bob Toledo's intricate system. Black, who finished with 114 tackles, also had three interceptions one returned for a touchdown four pass breakups and four quarterback hurries. He brought a calming influence to a young defense that had no other senior starters. The defense wasn't as consistent as a traditional unit under coach Rocky Long, but it never panicked and made big plays at critical times to keep the team in games. Its personality was reflected through Black, its captain.


http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/10023350
60 shuttle

1. Quincy Black New Mexico 11.23
2. Dallas Sartz USC 11.34
3. Paul Posluszny Penn State 11.42
4. Justin Durant Hampton 11.44
5. Zak Deossie Brown 11.50

Broad Jump
1. Quincy Black New Mexico 10'4"
2. Juwan Simpson Alabama 10'3"
3. Lawrence Timmons Florida St. 10'3"
4. Antwan Barnes Florida Int. 10'2"

Vertical
1. Quincy Black New Mexico 41 1/2
2. Patrick Willis Mississippi 39
3. Jon Abbate Wake Forest 38 1/2
4. Rory Johnson Mississippi 38
5. Paul Posluszny Penn State 37

Quincy Black New Mexico 24 reps

40

1. Quincy Black New Mexico 4.42
2. Antwan Barnes Florida Int. 4.43
3. Justin Durant Hampton 4.51
4. Chad Nkang Elon 4.51
5. Tim Shaw Penn State 4.51
7. Patrick Willis Mississippi 4.51
6. Juwan Simpson Alabama 4.55
8. Zak Deossie Brown 4.58

Vinny
03-26-2007, 01:46 PM
no pass rush = more losing. If we have another year with the leading sacker having less than 5 sacks...it will be a long year.

NEROtheZERO
03-26-2007, 01:48 PM
I'm going to think out of the box here and assert that the best way to contain the likes of Young (who I'm still not sold on) and Manning is Adrian Peterson. We saw it against the Colts, the best defense is clock management.

Now, the chances of Peterson being there at 10 are as likely as the chances of us winning the Super Bowl this year, so someone more reasonable (and likely) is Reggie Nelson. He can provide help in coverage and is athletic enough to chase down Young if he decides to scramble.

real
03-26-2007, 01:48 PM
I don't think one single player is going to help us contain Vince...

That's going to take a total defensive effort...

Marcus
03-26-2007, 01:50 PM
take a safety with enough range to snare the many ducks he'll be lobbing up.

I was thinking Landry, since he's better against the run than Nelson.

JAXwithanX
03-26-2007, 01:52 PM
My two canidates for anti Vincent weaponery is Okoye and Black the speedy 240 LB from New Mexico.

Okoye is the man we need to be praying for at the 10 spot. I am going to make it my personal mission until draft day to convince everyone of this. People need to do more research on him....he has both the potential AND productivity factors working for him (For Christ's sake he is 19 and played 4 years of college). But....I highly doubt he will be there at 10 when it is all said and done. As far as linebackers go, I personally don't think we use an aggressive enough linebacker scheme to really warrant spending high picks and huge money on a sack specialist there.

Marcus
03-26-2007, 01:54 PM
no pass rush = more losing. If we have another year with the leading sacker having less than 5 sacks...it will be a long year.

No argument there. I still can't figure out why everyone thinks the secondary is so bad when we have yet to get pressure with only four down linemen.

real
03-26-2007, 01:58 PM
No argument there. I still can't figure out why everyone thinks the secondary is so bad when we have yet to get pressure with only four down linemen.

The same reason everyone thought David Carr was so bad when we had no cohesiveness on the O-line and no solid running game...


The secondary has a lot to do with not getting many sacks as well...If the recievers are well covered the QB has to hold it longer.

Mark Brunnell ate us up, and that had nothing to do with the D-line not getting pressure.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 01:58 PM
McNair made a comment last season that one of the reasons for drafting Mario, was to put pressure on Manning. As we all know, the jury is still out on the wisdom of that decision. (putting it mildly)

So, taking this year's draft, and if you could choose a player in this draft that would give you the best shot at helping contain Vince's running, who would that be? Afterall, we do play him twice a year.

Landry, Nelson, Willis, Hall, Anderson, . . . who else comes to mind?

Screw Vince. Once he's got the Titans at the top of the division, then we can start "drafting to contain him"

We need to focus on getting to the QB, regardless who he is, and stopping the run.

We can go 14-2 getting swept by the Titans, and still win the division.

Or we can go 2-14 sweeping the Titans, and debate about who we'll select with the #1 overall.

Planning to beat the Colts, is planning to beat one of the best teams in the NFL year in, and year out. If you can beat the Colts with consistency, you can beat anybody, on any given day.

NEROtheZERO
03-26-2007, 02:03 PM
No argument there. I still can't figure out why everyone thinks the secondary is so bad when we have yet to get pressure with only four down linemen.

Chicken and the egg. It is an endless debate and the truth probably lies somewhere inbetween. There are a few things to consider though

(1) the injuries our DL sustained last season. We ended the season with one starter on the DL that started in week 1 and he had been playing on one leg half the season.

(2) Listen to what the players have to say. In the recent interview that was posted, Ryans said that if he could address any position on the defense in the draft, what would it be? He said safety and LB. He said he would draft S in the first and try and address LB through FA. If DeMeco feels that the DL is adequate I have no problem taking a S in the first and trying to find a pass rush specialist in the later rounds.

kastofsna
03-26-2007, 02:06 PM
i think the proof is in the pudding. the pressure of your front 7 is more important than the play of the secondary.

real
03-26-2007, 02:07 PM
Forget a pass rush specialist...We already have one...or we already have someone who is supposed to be one...

We need a DE opposite Mario that can rush the passer AND stop the run...

Marcus
03-26-2007, 02:09 PM
Mark Brunnell ate us up, and that had nothing to do with the D-line not getting pressure.

Brunell had all day to throw the ball whenever we didn't blitz. He even had all day to throw when we rushed 5. When we rushed 6 or more, that forced single man coverage. Manufacturing a rush by the blitz is always going to put extra pressure on the secondary.

I call that hanging them out to dry.

threetoedpete
03-26-2007, 02:12 PM
But....I highly doubt he will be there at 10 when it is all said and done. As far as linebackers go, I personally don't think we use an aggressive enough linebacker scheme to really warrant spending high picks and huge money on a sack specialist there.

Maybe the reason the shceme is so vinilla is because no one has the tallent, in their current positions to get there. Black has the numbers to be a mind boggeling weapon. Chances are he's going to be gone early in day two. if he's not and on the board with the fourth pick....that's a lot of atheltism to leave on the ground is all I know. If nothing else, we go nickle...the only two backers in the game for my team would be Meco to drop and Black to spy or rush. Agreed on Okoye...no one on tennesse's o-line can match the kids first step. Few NFL LGs will match it. He makes a great d-line compliment to Mario.

NEROtheZERO
03-26-2007, 02:15 PM
Forget a pass rush specialist...We already have one...or we already have someone who is supposed to be one...

We need a DE opposite Mario that can rush the passer AND stop the run...

Mario is the guy that can stop the run and rush the passer.

If we were to address the line with the first pick it would be at T to create a vacuum for our guys on the outside. But, as I said, if DeMeco's happy with the front four (relative to the secondary that is), I'll tend to side with him.

threetoedpete
03-26-2007, 02:17 PM
heck I dunno. 4.42 we teach the kid to block maybe we work him in as the RB3 WR2, lol.

real
03-26-2007, 02:18 PM
Brunell had all day to throw the ball whenever we didn't blitz. He even had all day to throw when we rushed 5. When we rushed 6 or more, that forced single man coverage. Manufacturing a rush by the blitz is always going to put extra pressure on the secondary.

I call that hanging them out to dry.


I'm sorry but I just don't agree....


I'm not saying we don't need a better pass rush...because we do...

I just think that most of the passes caught on us last year were the fault of the secondary and not because we couldn't generate a great pass rush...

real
03-26-2007, 02:22 PM
Mario is the guy that can stop the run and rush the passer.

If we were to address the line with the first pick it would be at T to create a vacuum for our guys on the outside. But, as I said, if DeMeco's happy with the front four (relative to the secondary that is), I'll tend to side with him.

I'm not too excited about any of the DT's coming out this year other than Okoye....

And I'm not really sure what you're saying when you say Mario is the guy that can stop the run and the passer...

Just adding a pass rush specialist opposite Mario would be a mistake IMO.

threetoedpete
03-26-2007, 02:27 PM
Mario is the guy that can stop the run and rush the passer.

If we were to address the line with the first pick it would be at T to create a vacuum for our guys on the outside. But, as I said, if DeMeco's happy with the front four (relative to the secondary that is), I'll tend to side with him.

I agree with this just like I agree the black hole at DB is cover coner not FS. You get a young lion oposite mario, what TJ was supposed to be when he came out, that eliminates the double teams on weaver or mario. Weaver and Ambi on the x would also be imposible for most left sides to handle. Then you shoot a missel like the Black kid in the hole they create, that would be an extremly effective pass rushing scheme.

I think we got two very good pro back up guys with the LBs they picked up. Neither of them though...runs 4.42. Just saying there. They gotta get someone who'll get there when they send five or six. I dunno about the two new guys....but the rest of the pile we've seen in spades last year. They can not get there.

trutxn
03-26-2007, 02:34 PM
Okoye is the man we need to be praying for at the 10 spot. I am going to make it my personal mission until draft day to convince everyone of this. People need to do more research on him....he has both the potential AND productivity factors working for him (For Christ's sake he is 19 and played 4 years of college). But....I highly doubt he will be there at 10 when it is all said and done. As far as linebackers go, I personally don't think we use an aggressive enough linebacker scheme to really warrant spending high picks and huge money on a sack specialist there.

Okoye playing next to Mario would reck havoc on any o-line, allowing us to use our linebackers in coverage instead of blitzing them. As far as our blitzing scheme goes, we are always sending LBs, which causes holes in the secondary.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 02:43 PM
Brunell had all day to throw the ball whenever we didn't blitz. He even had all day to throw when we rushed 5. When we rushed 6 or more, that forced single man coverage. Manufacturing a rush by the blitz is always going to put extra pressure on the secondary.

I call that hanging them out to dry.

Well, that wasn't the game I saw. The game I saw, he only completed 2 passes over 20 yards. 1 to each reciever. His leading reciever in that game was Clinton Portis. The game I saw, he beat us with the underneath stuff, dump offs that turned into big gaines, reverses, and pitches to the RB.

Santana Moss had 6 catches for 50 yards(8.3ypc) with a long of 13 yards
Antwan Randal-El had 3 catches for 34 yards(11.3 ypc) with a long of 23 yards
Clinton Portis had 2 catches for 74 yards, & I guarantee you Clinton didn't run any 32 yard patterns.


compare that to the Dallas game(whose pass rush is worse than ours, just like the Colts pass rush is worse than ours)
Cooley was 3 for 66 yards(22ypc) long of 27 yards.
Thrash was 3 for 52 yards(17.3ypc) long of 27 yards.
Brandon Lloyd was 2 for 26(13 ypc) long of 17 yards.

Or the Jags(8-8) the week after they played us.
Santana Moss 4-138yds(34.5ypc) long of 68
Calvin Cooley 4-70yds(17ypc) long of 34
Brandon Lloyd 3-49yds(16.3ypc) long of 33
Randle El 2-23yds(11.5) long of 19

we weren't giving Brunells the time to set up for these long plays. Our DL was doing it's job, our secondary wasn't.

real
03-26-2007, 02:50 PM
Well, that wasn't the game I saw. The game I saw, he only completed 2 passes over 20 yards. 1 to each reciever. His leading reciever in that game was Clinton Portis. The game I saw, he beat us with the underneath stuff, dump offs that turned into big gaines, reverses, and pitches to the RB.

Santana Moss had 6 catches for 50 yards(8.3ypc) with a long of 13 yards
Antwan Randal-El had 3 catches for 34 yards(11.3 ypc) with a long of 23 yards
Clinton Portis had 2 catches for 74 yards, & I guarantee you Clinton didn't run any 32 yard patterns.


compare that to the Dallas game(whose pass rush is worse than ours, just like the Colts pass rush is worse than ours)
Cooley was 3 for 66 yards(22ypc) long of 27 yards.
Thrash was 3 for 52 yards(17.3ypc) long of 27 yards.
Brandon Lloyd was 2 for 26(13 ypc) long of 17 yards.

Or the Jags(8-8) the week after they played us.
Santana Moss 4-138yds(34.5ypc) long of 68
Calvin Cooley 4-70yds(17ypc) long of 34
Brandon Lloyd 3-49yds(16.3ypc) long of 33
Randle El 2-23yds(11.5) long of 19



I didn't feel like looking up the stats, but that sounds about right...

Just thinking back, I can remember maybe 10 times at the most where I felt the QB had "all day" to throw, throughout the hundreds of plays our D ran during the course of the season...

I don't remember many times where our secondary put up much of a fight...

We do need a better pass rush, but IMO, secondary is where we need the most help despite the lies Kubiak told about how the secondary is a strength....He knows better than that....

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 03:11 PM
agreed

Marcus
03-26-2007, 03:42 PM
We do need a better pass rush, but IMO, secondary is where we need the most help despite the lies Kubiak told about how the secondary is a strength....He knows better than that....

Wow!

El Tejano
03-26-2007, 03:45 PM
take a safety with enough range to snare the many ducks he'll be lobbing up.

That's what I'm saying. Give me Landry!

real
03-26-2007, 03:51 PM
Wow!


Yeah I said it...LOL

Kubiak is a big fat liar....


:)

dirty steve
03-26-2007, 03:53 PM
I didn't feel like looking up the stats, but that sounds about right...

Just thinking back, I can remember maybe 10 times at the most where I felt the QB had "all day" to throw, throughout the hundreds of plays our D ran during the course of the season...

I don't remember many times where our secondary put up much of a fight...

We do need a better pass rush, but IMO, secondary is where we need the most help despite the lies Kubiak told about how the secondary is a strength....He knows better than that....
who do you think makes guys like nathan vasher, danieal manning, insert Bears DB here look good? tommie harris, that felon tank johnson, ogunleye, a pass rushing specialist in mark anderson, etc. a good d-line makes your secondary look good, not the other way around.

Marcus
03-26-2007, 04:17 PM
who do you think makes guys like nathan vasher, danieal manning, insert Bears DB here look good? tommie harris, that felon tank johnson, ogunleye, a pass rushing specialist in mark anderson, etc. a good d-line makes your secondary look good, not the other way around.

The secondary vs D-line discussion comes up nearly every day when I listen to NFL radio on Sirius. Tim Ryan pulls out the old quote everytime . . .

"You show me an all-pro DB, and I'll show you an all-pro DL in front of him."

The way the rules favor the offensive side of the ball in today's NFL, you get a consistant pass rush, consistant pressure on the QB, the secondary will take care of itself.

If Kubiak says we have a strong secondary, according to xtruroyaltyx, (news to me btw ) hey . . I just found who we probably aren't going to draft on the first day. Nice tip .. keep em comin! ;)

real
03-26-2007, 04:17 PM
who do you think makes guys like nathan vasher, danieal manning, insert Bears DB here look good? tommie harris, that felon tank johnson, ogunleye, a pass rushing specialist in mark anderson, etc. a good d-line makes your secondary look good, not the other way around.

Thanks for clearing that up for me...

I once was lost but now I see....

real
03-26-2007, 04:20 PM
If Kubiak says we have a strong secondary, according to xtruroyaltyx, (news to me btw ) hey . . I just found who we probably aren't going to draft on the first day. Nice tip .. keep em comin! ;)


You can believe what Kubiak says out of his mouth if you want to...

Or any of those people for that matter....

real
03-26-2007, 04:24 PM
"You show me an all-pro DB, and I'll show you an all-pro DL in front of him."


Maybe I'm totally off base....and I just may be...

But who was the All-pro on Washingtons DL when champ was there ?

Denvers ?

Do you see Ed Reed suffering because A.T left ?

Dallas has a pretty good Pass Rush IMO.....Their Secondary Stinks...

If your assertion is correct, then the teams with the best D-lines should have the best past defense... And the teams with the best DB's should have the best DL in front of them....I'll look up the stats and see if you're a liar or not...one sec...

beerlover
03-26-2007, 04:30 PM
to take VY down you need someone with excellent, quick & strong hands http://www.journalstar.com/content/articles/2006/03/22/special/doc4421ef0209826345178281.jpg

real
03-26-2007, 04:40 PM
Marcus....The stats are telling a different story....

No matter what category i sort by, It never has a majority of the teams with great D-lineman at the top....

Heck even the team you named, Chicago, didn't do all that great against the pass...they were about middle of the road in every category...


The team with the most Sacks only had 16 int's...Jason Taylor's Dolphins only had 8...The Panthers only had 14...The team with the most, was Baltimore....But I'm pretty sure that had nothing to do with Ed Reed, Chris McCalister, Dawan Landry, and Samari Rolle...:rolleyes:

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 04:40 PM
who do you think makes guys like nathan vasher, danieal manning, insert Bears DB here look good? tommie harris, that felon tank johnson, ogunleye, a pass rushing specialist in mark anderson, etc. a good d-line makes your secondary look good, not the other way around.

So why are cornerbacks paid as much as DEs & QBs?? You've got to have some ability to cover receivers, we have none. & it's not our safeties fault.

& you're darn right that you'll see a heck of a DL in front of any All Pro Corner. That's because QBs have to hold the ball a fraction of a second longer, or they refuse to throw to a particular side of the field, cutting off his options, causing him to wait for the other reciever to open up.

To really make your defense work though, you've got to have both, as well as LBs who can cover the underneath stuff, and sniff out screens(our DEs need to get better at this as well).

threetoedpete
03-26-2007, 04:41 PM
Carikker pick wouldn't bother me at all beerlover. Two great deffensie ends. Someone ought to get there for sure with those two.

real
03-26-2007, 04:51 PM
To really make your defense work though, you've got to have both, as well as LBs who can cover the underneath stuff, and sniff out screens(our DEs need to get better at this as well).


I agree...

And the reason i think we need to go DB is because we have three first rounders on D-line....Our big FA signing in Weaver...We just signed Zgonia...We have Kalu....

Everyone talks about the O-line and D-line and how we've neglected them, and we really haven't....We've spent a lot of picks and signed a lot of Free Agents for both of those areas...

The area that we've neglected is DB, with D.Rob being the only guy who can go to about any team and start...

What else have we done to our DB's besides D.Rob ??? Where are the top flight free agents, and where the he!! are the early draft picks?!?!? We need help back there....bad....

Ole Miss Texan
03-26-2007, 04:53 PM
threetoed you may like this arguement....oh wait..someone may have already said it, i havn't read all the posts so im sorry.

levi brown. have a good offensive line, run the ball, extend the drives, take time off the clock, and keep peyton , oops i mean vince off the field!!

force him to play from behind and pass the ball.

Janus3
03-26-2007, 05:46 PM
McNair made a comment last season that one of the reasons for drafting Mario, was to put pressure on Manning. As we all know, the jury is still out on the wisdom of that decision. (putting it mildly)

So, taking this year's draft, and if you could choose a player in this draft that would give you the best shot at helping contain Vince's running, who would that be? Afterall, we do play him twice a year.

Landry, Nelson, Willis, Hall, Anderson, . . . who else comes to mind?


vince young is a horrible passer, but he can run, so i say nelson would be the best bet.

dirty steve
03-26-2007, 06:41 PM
Drafted:
Ravens-Ed Reed (1st round, pick 24 overall)
Steelers-Troy Polamalu (1st round, pick 16 overall)
Colts-Bob Sanders (2nd Round, pick 44 overall)
Bears-Danieal Manning (2nd Round, Pick 42 overall)
average pick: 47th

Drafted:
Ravens-Terrell Suggs (1st round, Pick 10)
Steelers-Casey Hampton (1st Round, Pick 19)
Colts-Dwight Freeney (1st Round, Pick 11)
Bears-Tommie Harris (1st Round, Pick 14)
average pick: 13th

The first list is when each of the safeties were drafted. The second list is when the teams highest drafted defensive lineman was taken. Only one of the safeties was taken before any of the d-lineman were taken. Three of these teams have reached the Super Bowl the last two seasons and Ravens made the playoffs this past year. Are you cool with jason babin on the other side?

shanden
03-26-2007, 06:55 PM
take a safety with enough range to snare the many ducks he'll be lobbing up.

:rofl:

Atleast when I keep seeing VY fans constantly reliving the past through the Texans in this forum I will have a new nick name replace every mention of his name in a post.

Vince "Ducky" Young

That or "Quackman" Young

JAXwithanX
03-26-2007, 11:24 PM
:rofl:

Atleast when I keep seeing VY fans constantly reliving the past through the Texans in this forum I will have a new nick name replace every mention of his name in a post.

Vince "Ducky" Young

That or "Quackman" Young

I just usually call him Roy for short.