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View Full Version : R.J. - Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith are putting their careers on the line for this guy.


Rightnow
03-26-2007, 08:15 AM
From the Chronicle: (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2007/03/post_4.html)

All that stuff happened when Charley Casserly was in the building. Since he left, there hasn't been a single bone-headed move. Go ahead and name one. You can't do it because there hasn't been one.

Sure, everyone KNOWS Matt Schaub is a bad move. The thing is, they don't know. They can't know. He's a risk, a huge risk. Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith are putting their careers on the line for this guy. On the other hand, I'd rather have a front office that took some chances rather than sitting on its hands and saying, "Oh my, John B. and the Sports Reporters might not like what we're doing."

-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree mostly. I think Kubiak and Smith put their careers on the line at last years draft. The decision to take Mario may be the defining point of their careers. I don't agree with Justice too much, but he is speaking the truth. The VY/Bush/Carr/Mario/Schuab drama will make or break this team for the years.

Bongo59
03-26-2007, 08:25 AM
Smith and Kubiak decided to pay Carr 8 mil last yr for one yr. That wa sa collassal mistake considering they just outright cut him last week. The FO in Hou has been in deep freeze for much of the texans exisstance.

From the NY Daily news yesterday:

CARR TALK: Just one year ago, the Texans paid QB David Carr an $8 million option bonus to buy three more years on his contract rather than draft hometown hero Vince Young. After trading for Atlanta backup Matt Schaub last week, the Texans cut Carr. It's surprising they didn't hold onto him at least through this week and try to trade him at the league meetings. Where will Carr wind up? The Dolphins, who have been focused on trading for K.C.'s Trent Green, could pursue Carr instead. So could Kansas City. New Raiders coach Lane Kiffin was a graduate assistant at Fresno State in 1997-98 when Carr was there. If the Raiders sign Carr, they would dump plans to draft LSU QB JaMarcus Russell with the first pick and likely take Georgia Tech WR Calvin Johnson, who is the best player in the draft. ... Giants co-owner John Mara said last night he's optimistic league owners will vote today to approve an increase in the debt each club is allowed to carry. That would remove another hurdle in the process for the construction of the new stadium in the Meadowlands the Giants and Jets are building together

HuttoKarl
03-26-2007, 08:29 AM
Smith and Kubiak didn't decide to pay Carr an 8 million dollar bonus and an extension. That was Casserly still at that point.

Kubiak decided that with a QB already making millions on the roster that we needed to look at another position. Same goes for the RB we had making millions who was coming back healthy according to doctors.

It didn't work out. Don't blame Kubiak and Smith for last offseason...they just inherited it and have attempted to make it work out. After the pickups throughout the season last year, I tend to think that Smith knows what the hell he's doing and deserves the benefit of the doubt right now.

keyfro
03-26-2007, 08:32 AM
well what happened last year was that kubiak made the decision that starting his head coaching career would be easier if he agreed to try and get carr playing up to par...casserly wasn't about to let carr go and wasn't about to draft vy

now that casserly is gone kubiak and smith made a similiar decision...they didn't want to go with a rookie QB so they are essentially risking they jobs here in houston on matt schaub

if schaub flubs out one or probably both of them will be out of a job...however i think it's more likely they will succeed...everything i've seen from these two guys have lead me to believe they know what they are doing and will make more right decisions than bad ones...but make no mistake their jobs are on the line with matt schaub

Bongo59
03-26-2007, 08:37 AM
Smith and Kubiak didn't decide to pay Carr an 8 million dollar bonus and an extension. That was Casserly still at that point.

Kubiak decided that with a QB already making millions on the roster that we needed to look at another position. Same goes for the RB we had making millions who was coming back healthy according to doctors.

It didn't work out. Don't blame Kubiak and Smith for last offseason...they just inherited it and have attempted to make it work out. After the pickups throughout the season last year, I tend to think that Smith knows what the hell he's doing and deserves the benefit of the doubt right now.

yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

Historyhorn
03-26-2007, 08:39 AM
Smith and Kubiak didn't decide to pay Carr an 8 million dollar bonus and an extension. That was Casserly still at that point.

Kubiak decided that with a QB already making millions on the roster that we needed to look at another position. Same goes for the RB we had making millions who was coming back healthy according to doctors.

It didn't work out. Don't blame Kubiak and Smith for last offseason...they just inherited it and have attempted to make it work out. After the pickups throughout the season last year, I tend to think that Smith knows what the hell he's doing and deserves the benefit of the doubt right now.

Come on! Everyone even back then knew what was going on with Cass. He was being held around as a stool pigeon until after the draft so that folks like you would believe that he made the call on giving that extension to Carr as well as signing off on not drafting Reggie or Vince.

That decision was made, but it damn sure wasn't made by Cass. McNair and Kubiak bear the responsibility for that one. Decisions made leading up to the end of last year's season can be put on Cass & Capers. From that point forward it was McNair and Kubiak all the way.

I do however believe that Smith & Kubiak are putting their career as Texans on the line with this move to get Schaub. I don't really see this trade as having a whole lot of room in the middle to say it was just OK. Either Schaub comes in and performs at a pro-bowl level and no-one gives a second thought to what amounts to a mid-first round pick we gave up in compensation. Or he performs poorly or even middling.....then everyone takes a look at the two second rounders we give up and see two should be starters on a team that has more holes than the Lucitania.

Time and the next season or two will certainly be telling.

Go Texans

HuttoKarl
03-26-2007, 08:51 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

And from watching the tape, perhaps Kubiak didn't know that Carr was unable to take instruction, was punchdrunk and happyfooted with no hope of rehabilitation. I remember the weeks before that extension was signed and there weren't a ton of people out there who thought we were going to let him go, Kubiak or not.

Who goes into a job interview and says "No...I can't accomplish anything with this guy. I won't work with him."???

Nobody who wants a job.

HuttoKarl
03-26-2007, 08:52 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

And YOU said Kubiak AND Smith extended Carr. Smith wasn't hired until June of 2006, so don't talk about me not knowing what's up.

Tailgate
03-26-2007, 08:55 AM
We are never going to really move on are we?

nunusguy
03-26-2007, 08:57 AM
And YOU said Kubiak AND Smith extended Carr. Smith wasn't hired until June of 2006, so don't talk about me not knowing what's up.
Exactly.
Smith was still with the Broncos when the Texans with Kubiak aboard made
the decisions to retain Carr, pass on VY, and draft Mario.
Wouldn't you give anything to have Smith reveal what his former employers
top 10 Board was for the 2006 Draft ?

Kaiser Toro
03-26-2007, 09:07 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

Ain't nuttin but a troll thing. Quack! Quack!

Blu
03-26-2007, 09:16 AM
You guys forget Bongo bailed on Houston the day the oil'dikes left town.
Someone needed to pick the fleas out of Buds possum hair and bash Houston for every mis step.

HoustonFrog
03-26-2007, 09:20 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

Wrong..he was given no choice and told the job included Carr. The decision had been made.

Just now reading down and seeing everyone already jumped on this..excuse me.

Marcus
03-26-2007, 09:22 AM
We are never going to really move on are we?

Apparently not!:mad:

If it's gonna make some of you feel better to still argue who it was that made the decision to extend Carr . . . why are you insistant on leaving McNair out of the picture?

I mean, he was the one that supposedly admitted that it was a mistake last week. Was John Lopez correct in his article on Sunday that McNair's still the Teflon man?

Apparently so. (sigh)

Rightnow
03-26-2007, 09:35 AM
We are never going to really move on are we?

Many Texans fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game. If VY ends up being the pro-bowl/superstar that it looks like he will be, while the Texans consistently languish in 3rd and 4th place in the division, Texans fans won't be over it until VY retires in 10-15 years.

Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not a VY fan, but we passed up three franchise QB's last year and now have Shaub doesn't sit very well with me.

I just have a general bad feeling that we overpaid for Shaub and might be a mediocre team for another 3-5 years. Sigh...

Gotta keep hope alive... Go Texans!

Jwwillis
03-26-2007, 09:47 AM
Many Texans fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game. If VY ends up being the pro-bowl/superstar that it looks like he will be, while the Texans consistently languish in 3rd and 4th place in the division, Texans fans won't be over it until VY retires in 10-15 years.

Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not a VY fan, but we passed up three franchise QB's last year and now have Shaub doesn't sit very well with me.

I just have a general bad feeling that we overpaid for Shaub and might be a mediocre team for another 3-5 years. Sigh...

Gotta keep hope alive... Go Texans!

This needs to be edited:

"Many ( University of Texas ) fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game"

tsip
03-26-2007, 09:49 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

Are you one of those that was willing to give Carr 5+ years but don't want to give anybody else the time of day?

Here's the deal-write it down-Kubiak will be here long after Carr is gone, which may be sooner than later.

tsip
03-26-2007, 09:52 AM
Many Texans fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game. If VY ends up being the pro-bowl/superstar that it looks like he will be, while the Texans consistently languish in 3rd and 4th place in the division, Texans fans won't be over it until VY retires in 10-15 years.

Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not a VY fan, but we passed up three franchise QB's last year and now have Shaub doesn't sit very well with me.

I just have a general bad feeling that we overpaid for Shaub and might be a mediocre team for another 3-5 years. Sigh...

Gotta keep hope alive... Go Texans!

...you gave Carr 5 yrs-can't you give Matt a couple games before you start the 'dooming...?

Jwwillis
03-26-2007, 09:53 AM
I think now is the time to more easily see who the TRUE Texan fans are. Some of the garbage coming from these trolls is comical. EVERYONE thinks they speak for most or all Texans fans with their opinion, including John Lopez, example: "But let's be honest here. McNair has lost fans' trust."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/lopez/4659162.html

I mean how arrogant is that to think with that statment he speaks for all fans. He certainly doesn't speak for me. Perhaps McNair has lost YOUR trust Lopez but not mine.

tsip
03-26-2007, 09:58 AM
"If Carr is gone, and that is a big if, we should get a vet through free agency. There just isn't anyone this year coming out that is that fantastic. IMO" Right Now
__________________

They did what you suggested-Carr is gone, get over it.

Rightnow
03-26-2007, 09:59 AM
...you gave Carr 5 yrs-can't you give Matt a couple games before you start the 'dooming...?

I didn't say that. I am just nervous about this year and what it means for the franchise. I want Shaub to succeed, because his success means the Texans are winning and I want that more than anything in football. Kubiak and Smith took a tremendous risk, but I hope it works out.

Rightnow
03-26-2007, 10:03 AM
"If Carr is gone, and that is a big if, we should get a vet through free agency. There just isn't anyone this year coming out that is that fantastic. IMO" Right Now
__________________

They did what you suggested-Carr is gone, get over it.

They did what I suggested, but I think they paid too much for him. I figured they'd get a cheaper vet, or use Sage, while grooming a second or third round pick and they may still do that, but it isn't looking that way.

I'm not a VY fan, I wanted Lienert over him.

real
03-26-2007, 10:10 AM
I didn't say that. I am just nervous about this year and what it means for the franchise. I want Shaub to succeed, because his success means the Texans are winning and I want that more than anything in football. Kubiak and Smith took a tremendous risk, but I hope it works out.

Don't be nervous man...:)

Schaub may not come in and be Peyton, Drew or Tom...but just know that he won't be David...IMO, we got rid of one of the bottom 5 starters from last year...

I think Schaub is going to be awesome, but if he is just middle of the road he'll make us a better team...

Tailgate
03-26-2007, 10:11 AM
Many Texans fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game. If VY ends up being the pro-bowl/superstar that it looks like he will be, while the Texans consistently languish in 3rd and 4th place in the division, Texans fans won't be over it until VY retires in 10-15 years.

Sorry, but it is the truth. I'm not a VY fan, but we passed up three franchise QB's last year and now have Shaub doesn't sit very well with me.

I just have a general bad feeling that we overpaid for Shaub and might be a mediocre team for another 3-5 years. Sigh...

Gotta keep hope alive... Go Texans!


I thought we were ALREADY competitive against the Titans? We had 5 turnovers against them (2 int by Carr and a fumble returned for a TD), and Pacman (who may be gone for a year) returned a punt for a TD, and we were still competitive till the end. The second game it took them guessing the coin flip in OT to win. I would say we are already competitive against them... in fact, I wouldnt be surprised if we split or win both games next year. I dont see them being significantly improved thus far in the offseason. It very well could happen.

Ole Miss Texan
03-26-2007, 10:16 AM
Smith and Kubiak decided to pay Carr 8 mil last yr for one yr. That wa sa collassal mistake considering they just outright cut him last week. The FO in Hou has been in deep freeze for much of the texans exisstance.


yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............

Word of advice Bongo, don't be so quick to blame a person for a mistake and then casually leave him out when you try and back up your arguement.

As you've probably found out by the responses above, Smith was not hired until after the draft. Carr's extension was made well before the draft.

And nobody knows what the deal is with Carr's extension or who was making the decisions, we can only speculate. I would assume that McNair didn't give Casserly too much power and knew he would fire him(Casserley was probably told well in advance but paid to stay a while and leave ''gracefully''.)

All I know is that kubiak sure as heck didn't have a lot of time to watch carr's film, study him, work with him, talk to him, train him...etc. Apparently he watched every snap of carr on film, which i would expect him to do so i'm sure he saw a lot of faults on many players.

I would assume McNair told the coaches interviewing for the HC position that he wanted to give Carr a fair chance. Sure he has his faults but with better coaching and more oline work, carr could succeed. Reminds me of Blank/Vick relationship alittle bit. I'm sure the 'talking heads' had their different opinions on carr.

I think Kubiak probably said something like..'i'd love coach this team no matter who is at qb bob, if that is carr, i think we could be a winning team, if thats another qb, i think we could be a winning team too. imo, bob, a lot of change needs to go on here in houston, there's a lot of holes, a lot of needs, and we're going to find what they are, take care of it, and build this into a championship team.' -speculation by me but that's the gist of what an honest candidate for the job would say. Not kubiak saying 'well bob i talked to smith who's still w/ the broncos and we've 100% decided i'm not taking this job if carr is gone, and he won't come over if carr is gone too.'

I don't really like the resigning of carr and then cut, but i'm not about to put the full blame or even half of it on kubiak. maybe he warrants some of it but i'm not so quick to throw him in the fire.

I also dont particularly like the moulds trade for our 5th rd pick last year and then just cutting him...i don't know who made the trade and decision to cut..that could be smith but i'm not sure.

Ole Miss Texan
03-26-2007, 10:18 AM
I thought we were ALREADY competitive against the Titans? We had 5 turnovers against them (2 int by Carr and a fumble returned for a TD), and Pacman (who may be gone for a year) returned a punt for a TD, and we were still competitive till the end. The second game it took them guessing the coin flip in OT to win. I would say we are already competitive against them... in fact, I wouldnt be surprised if we split or win both games next year. I dont see them being significantly improved thus far in the offseason. It very well could happen.

I can't believe we lost that game 28-22. utterly unbelievable how pathetic we played against them to have that outcome. We've definitely got more of a fighting spirit now than we did the 1st half of the season, and am really looking forward to next season.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 10:21 AM
Wrong..he was given no choice and told the job included Carr. The decision had been made.

Just now reading down and seeing everyone already jumped on this..excuse me.

In truth, that is all speculation. We really don't know.

But just like there are people(& teams) all around the country that think David was given a raw deal in Houston, and think that he can be a proBowler with another team, I don't have a problem with Kubiak watching tape on this kid, making a list of all the things that was wrong with him, and saying, "I can fix him". I'd also believe he looked at our offensive line, and said, "I can fix them."

But after working with Carr, realizing that his problems are the same problems he had coming into the league, and he still didn't understand the things Matt Lienart, Brad GradKowski, Vince Young, Jay Cutler, J.P. Losman, Charlie Frye, David Anderson & Tavaris(sp) Jackson learned in much less time.

I don't have a problem with Kubiak being wrong about Carr. Everybody else around the country right now, are making the same mistake.

What I would have a problem with, is if he couldn't explain that to Bob McNair, and try to make it work anyway, the same way Capers did.

"Bob, I was wrong, and we need to do something about our QB situation."

I've got no problem with that at all.

Tailgate
03-26-2007, 10:21 AM
I can't believe we lost that game 28-22. utterly unbelievable how pathetic we played against them to have that outcome. We've definitely got more of a fighting spirit now than we did the 1st half of the season, and am really looking forward to next season.

It was the day I lost all confidence in David Carr. I know MS is a risk.... but I can only dream of a QB who doesnt have fumbilitus, happy feet, gets passes batted down left and right, and can lead a team to victory no matter what.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 10:28 AM
From the Chronicle: (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2007/03/post_4.html)

All that stuff happened when Charley Casserly was in the building. Since he left, there hasn't been a single bone-headed move. Go ahead and name one. You can't do it because there hasn't been one.

Sure, everyone KNOWS Matt Schaub is a bad move. The thing is, they don't know. They can't know. He's a risk, a huge risk. Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith are putting their careers on the line for this guy. This is just a stupid comment. If they didn't make a move they would be putting their careers in Carr's hand instead of Schaub. Apparently they feel much better about their career with Schaub taking the hand off instead of coach killer David Carr.

The Pencil Neck
03-26-2007, 10:30 AM
In my mind, I picture the conversation going something like this:

McNair: Carr is our guy. Gary, do you believe we can win with him at QB?

Kubiak: Yeah, sure. I mean, Dilfer won a SB, right? <laughter> So, yeah, David's got some problems but we can probably fix those and build a winning team.

An ecstatic Casserly gives big bonus to Carr.

Kubiak: Holy crap, Batman! I didn't say I could turn him into Peyton Manning!? WTH?!?

GP
03-26-2007, 10:35 AM
So many years of Casserly/Capers making bad deals has poisoned a lot of us.

Now let's switch gears...

The 2006 Draft. Nobody should have to have the first pick in the draft when there are THREE superstars to behad (VY, RB, MW). You're going to make "the bad move" no matter who you pick out of those three. However, we got a great grade by most pundits. We picked up the DROY (Ryans) and a great Olineman in Spencer. Throw in Owen Daniels, and it was the best overall draft we've had...period.

Buchanon got dropped. One of the best decisions EVER.

Dayne signed off waivers. I laughed when we picked up Dayne, and after he willed us to a few wins...I ain't laughing anymore. Even the sports media are chuckling that Dayne has been rejuvenated here in Houston. Without DD, our running game was dismal, and in comes Dayne who practically won several of those games for us.

Vonta Leach picked up off the street. I'd never heard of him. Looking back on the threads when we acquired Vonta, I recall that even Vinny had made a comment to the effect of Vonta not being here for long or not going to be a real contributor. Well, the Giants seem to have wished THEY had picked Vonta up off the street.

Vonta Leach re-signed. Smith could have let him go to save a few bucks, but he didn't let the guy get away. Smart, smart move.

Ahman Green signed. Because of Dayne's success, I ain't laughing at this move. We run the ZB scheme, Ahman hasn't been as injured as it's been theorized around here, and the guy averages 1200 yds. a year for a decade. He's a good decision for the reason of giving us a year or two to find a solid, younger RB for the future...thus, freeing us up to draft for other needs.

Matt Schaub signed, Carr released/DD released. What a day it is when the FO is no longer making piddly little off-season moves and claiming that "we're putting the pieces of the puzzle into place, and we've really bolstered our team this year..." Instead, the moves are bold and daring...but with a high risk/high reward mentality. Schaub's not even really a risk. The guy is highly revered by Falcons fans, he moves the chains when he's in the game. He's decisive, accurate, a leader on and off the field, has better mechanics than Carr has, and Schaub is well-versed in WCO. Out of the choices of all QBs, I feel we got the one with the most up-side. Releasing Carr and DD was a statement that says "the old way of doing business" is gone. Isn't that we all wanted out of our team's FO?

But alas, we have some predicting that THE END IS NEAR! Bongo, you are scared to death of us right now. You've got a third running back for a QB, PacMan is going to be gobbling up food pellets in jail soon if he doesn't stop his behavior, and he's definitely out of the lineup for your team for awhile, so you can kiss those nice kick returns and good field position goodbye. Drew Bennet is gone. Free agents are receding from your team faster than Bud's hairline. And all the while, we're running circles around you in the off-season moves.

Yeah, I'm really scared Bongo.

Our front office is now headed up by Rick Smith. Look above at the moves I mentioned. It's clear that we're moving forward in the right direction.
And as far as Richard Justice is concerned: He's the guy who said the Astros were dead...and we know how that worked out, don't we? He's the last person that needs to predicting doom and gloom. I swear, some people just love being the spoil sport, the guy who thinks he's being a good shepherd of the flock by trying to tell all the little sheep that the big bad wolf is coming and we better look out for him.

If only there was a way for Rick Smith to fire the Houston sports writers. Surely there's a way....

Front Office, if you're reading this, this is what I have to say to you: Good job. Keep it up. You have more of my confidence NOW than you have ever had.

real
03-26-2007, 10:35 AM
I also dont particularly like the moulds trade for our 5th rd pick last year and then just cutting him...i don't know who made the trade and decision to cut..that could be smith but i'm not sure.

On average how many 5th round picks would you say turn into legit contributers on winnning teams ? 50%, 30%, 70% ???

JMO, but I'd lean more towards the 30 % range and that may be a little high....

My line of thinking may be totally out of whack, but we've never had good veteran skill player on offense, and I am basically thinking they used a 5th rounder on a role model. Personally I don't have a problem with that, because I think they spent a 5th round pick on a known commodity. They knew what they'd get out of Eric. Leadership, accountability, and good work ethic. He not only rubbed off on AJ, but the all of the young players on the team. If you go to work everyday, and you see one of the old timers busting his butt as a young player you can't help but to follow his lead.

I think it's good that Spencer, Winston, Daniels, Meco, Mario, Daniels, Lundy and the rest of the rookies got to learn "how to win games at practice and in the weight room" from guys like Moulds and Flannagan rather than coming into a situation with no positive influences and the only vets to learn from would have been guys like Carr, Wiegert and Greenwood...It's just a continuous cycle...Losing breeds losers....Winning breeds winners...Get a positive influence for our young players now, and they in turn will breed a winning attitude into rookies we get this year...

JMO, but the 5th rounder we spent was worth it, considering that they are trying to change this losing culture.

Texans_Chick
03-26-2007, 10:36 AM
From the Chronicle: (http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2007/03/post_4.html)

All that stuff happened when Charley Casserly was in the building. Since he left, there hasn't been a single bone-headed move. Go ahead and name one. You can't do it because there hasn't been one.

Sure, everyone KNOWS Matt Schaub is a bad move. The thing is, they don't know. They can't know. He's a risk, a huge risk. Gary Kubiak and Rick Smith are putting their careers on the line for this guy. On the other hand, I'd rather have a front office that took some chances rather than sitting on its hands and saying, "Oh my, John B. and the Sports Reporters might not like what we're doing."

-------------------------------------------------------------

I agree mostly. I think Kubiak and Smith put their careers on the line at last years draft. The decision to take Mario may be the defining point of their careers. I don't agree with Justice too much, but he is speaking the truth. The VY/Bush/Carr/Mario/Schuab drama will make or break this team for the years.


Most coaches are biding time before they get fired. It is the nature of the job. Some decisions you make work, and some don't but if you only make decisions to make your fans happy short term, you are likely not going to have a very good team.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 10:36 AM
Yeah, I'm really scared Bongo.



our fans need to man up...this stuff is embarrassing. Bongo is going to pull your chain as long as you let him yank it.

Pantherstang84
03-26-2007, 10:37 AM
I really have nothing to add to this conversation except that Bongo might want to take note of my signature line below. The first part.

The old VY drum beat has gotten older than barrel of moldy cheese.

Geez. I even hear it from my parents who are clueless about the situation.

You can't dwell on past mistakes period!

You try to fix them and move on.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 10:39 AM
Most coaches are biding time before they get fired. It is the nature of the job. Some decisions you make work, and some don't but if you only make decisions to make your fans happy short term, you are likely not going to have a very good team.We know one thing for sure....Kubiak coached Carr for a year and couldn't wait to get rid of him. Kubiak didn't draft Carr so he doesn't want his coaching career defined by Carr a minute longer than he had too.

Rightnow
03-26-2007, 10:41 AM
Ahman Green signed. Because of Dayne's success, I ain't laughing at this move. We run the ZB scheme, Ahman hasn't been as injured as it's been theorized around here, and the guy averages 1200 yds. a year for a decade. He's a good decision for the reason of giving us a year or two to find a solid, younger RB for the future...thus, freeing us up to draft for other needs.



This may be our best off season signing ever. Green is still a stud even if he has lost a step. (Age catches up with everyone.) He can pick up the blitz, receive, looks to be a great leader and locker room presence.

I'm nervous about Schuab, but then again I'm nervous about the Astros this year. I'm seeing the Astros play on opening day though! Just because I'm unsure of things and worry a bit about the teams future doesn't mean I don't support the team. :)

Ole Miss Texan
03-26-2007, 10:44 AM
On average how many 5th round picks would you say turn into legit contributers on winnning teams ? 50%, 30%, 70% ???

JMO, but I'd lean more towards the 30 % range and that may be a little high....

My line of thinking may be totally out of whack, but we've never had good veteran skill player on offense, and I am basically thinking they used a 5th rounder on a role model. Personally I don't have a problem with that, because I think they spent a 5th round pick on a known commodity. They knew what they'd get out of Eric. Leadership, accountability, and good work ethic. He not only rubbed off on AJ, but the all of the young players on the team. If you go to work everyday, and you see one of the old timers busting his butt as a young player you can't help but to follow his lead.

I think it's good that Spencer, Winston, Daniels, Meco, Mario, Daniels, Lundy and the rest of the rookies got to learn "how to win games at practice and in the weight room" from guys like Moulds and Flannagan rather than coming into a situation with no positive influences and the only vets to learn from would have been guys like Carr, Wiegert and Greenwood...It's just a continuous cycle...Losing breeds losers....Winning breeds winners...Get a positive influence for our young players now, and they in turn will breed a winning attitude into rookies we get this year...

JMO, but the 5th rounder we spent was worth it, considering that they are trying to change this losing culture.

you raise a good point tru, i think he probably helped AJ out a good bit and he was definitly nice to have in the locker room. my only thing was that i think it was like a 3 year deal and he just got cut after 1. not sure how much his salary and guaranteed $ was but seems kinda much for 1 year. hopefully he helped out david anderson a little becuase he could be our #2 wr for a while.

Texans_Chick
03-26-2007, 10:45 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

Talk about revisionist history...

Retaining Carr and not drafting QB at the time was a conventional football move. With the needs that the Texans had, it is plausible to think that with good coaching at the QB position, the first pick in the draft could be spent on other positions. It wasn't terribly conventional to take DE instead of Bush, though a number of defensive minded coaches, such as the Tuna defended it.

"Bought the cellar spot for the next decade???" You know, I can deal with you not using traditional punctuation or capitalization, but geez, when you write exaggerated stuff like this, it makes it hard to take you seriously.

McNair is a very patient owner. Personally, I appreciate the risk involved with getting a QB with potential, as opposed to giving up a late pick to get a Plummer. It the type of move done with the franchise in mind versus what maybe makes the coach look better in the short term.

real
03-26-2007, 10:47 AM
you raise a good point tru, i think he probably helped AJ out a good bit and he was definitly nice to have in the locker room. my only thing was that i think it was like a 3 year deal and he just got cut after 1. not sure how much his salary and guaranteed $ was but seems kinda much for 1 year. hopefully he helped out david anderson a little becuase he could be our #2 wr for a while.

I'm not saying it was a perfect move...

But I'm thinking they went the buisiness route instead of the friendly one...

If you tell a guy nearing the end of his career, "hey I just want to bring you in for a year to help mentor our players" odds are that vet is going to pass...

I'm just speculating like we all are, but I can't see what they saw in Moulds that would lead them to believe he'd be our number 2 reciever for 3 years...

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 10:48 AM
This needs to be edited:

"Many ( University of Texas ) fans won't be moving on until we are at least competitive against VY and the Titans and won't be over it until the Texans beat VY in a playoff game"

You know it's silly to think that it doesn't matter what the University of Texas fans think.

Losing a big part of the state, is about as bad as Al Gore losing Tennessee.

Think about it, if the Texans want to be the team of choice for Texans.... then it matters when they pass on one of the best QB prospects to ever come out of the state.

Houston's been great to the Texans, and that's good. They have to win Houston first, but they also have to win Texas. Dropping David (which would have cost us nothing) would not have lost many Texans fans... drafting Vince, wouldn't have lost many Texans fans, especially if they both performed like they did in '07, which most everybody in Austin thought they would.

& they were right.

I'm over it, I don't care where Vince plays... I don't care how he does.. I won't watch a Titans game, unless they are playing the Texans, or if they are on NFL Replay(& they've already been on NFL Replay more times than the Texans).

I understand Texans fans being upset, and hearing the same drivel again, and again....

But we just make ourselves look dumber by saying things like this. By saying that Vince wasn't that great, or that David wasn't that bad, or whatever.

The people in Austin were right, Had we drafted Vince, we wouldn't have been looking for a QB after the '07 season. We wouldn't have given away this & next years 2nd round picks, we wouldn't have wasted $13 million on a QB who has yet to cut the apron strings.

Bottom line, they were right.

But maybe we are better off with Schaub..... I don't know that, but it may very well be the case. Maybe we are better off with Ahman Green, & Ron Dayne, where we don't have to depend on two young RBs to carry our running game... & they can prove themselves through the season, like all the great backs that have come through the Denver system.

Things are looking up for us Texans fans, & I think it's about time some of us follow Kubiaks example, and just say, "F@#$ it, we were wrong, but we're not going to live in the past. We're moving forward."

HoustonFrog
03-26-2007, 10:52 AM
In truth, that is all speculation. We really don't know.
But just like there are people(& teams) all around the country that think David was given a raw deal in Houston, and think that he can be a proBowler with another team, I don't have a problem with Kubiak watching tape on this kid, making a list of all the things that was wrong with him, and saying, "I can fix him". I'd also believe he looked at our offensive line, and said, "I can fix them."

But after working with Carr, realizing that his problems are the same problems he had coming into the league, and he still didn't understand the things Matt Lienart, Brad GradKowski, Vince Young, Jay Cutler, J.P. Losman, Charlie Frye, David Anderson & Tavaris(sp) Jackson learned in much less time.

I don't have a problem with Kubiak being wrong about Carr. Everybody else around the country right now, are making the same mistake.

What I would have a problem with, is if he couldn't explain that to Bob McNair, and try to make it work anyway, the same way Capers did.

"Bob, I was wrong, and we need to do something about our QB situation."

I've got no problem with that at all.

TK, you are right but I'm a big proponent of where there is smoke there is fire. It kind of follows the scenarios with players not saying Dave was a leader, etc...yet now alot of it is coming out. I just think the timing of the decision along with the hiring, etc lends to the story's probablity. Add to that the apology from McNair about making mistakes and it all follows.

HuttoKarl
03-26-2007, 10:57 AM
If we took VY, then the Aggie fans would leave us.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 10:58 AM
If we took VY, then the Aggie fans would leave us.
and what is the downside to this? :joker:

HuttoKarl
03-26-2007, 10:59 AM
and what is the downside to this? :joker:

I'm trying to think of one, but am having a hard time doing so. I guess I just feel like we could draft Jesus Christ and the Ghost of Red Grange and there's a certain group here who'd complain about it.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 11:00 AM
On average how many 5th round picks would you say turn into legit contributers on winnning teams ? 50%, 30%, 70% ???

JMO, but I'd lean more towards the 30 % range and that may be a little high....


If we paid him like a 5th round draft pick, that would be fine, and I'd feel the same way you do about it.

While we didn't pay him a boatload of money, we gave more than we got, and it would have been nice to have him for a second year, with a real QB.

But I think he ran off at the mouth a little too early, and the F.O. had to do something... I'd bet Dunta was given a stern talking to as well, but they aren't going to cut him.....



.Yet.

SheTexan
03-26-2007, 11:02 AM
You guys are unbelievable!!! You simply cannot get the VINCE YOUNG sage out of your heads!!! When will you all accept the fact that VINCE YOUNG was NEVER destined to be a TEXAN??????? Discuss the QB situation all you want, BUT, if the Texans hadn't taken Mario, Reggie Bush would have been the pick, not Vince Young. The Texans had a jersey with Bush's name on it ready for the draft last year. On Thursday night before the draft the equipment guys had to hussle to change the name to Williams.

I believe the Texans would have done the same thing last year that they did this year. They would have traded for a vet QB and drafted either Mario or Reggie. Regardless of how much some of you wanted it to happen, VY would NEVER have become a TEXAN!!!!!!!!!!

Vinny
03-26-2007, 11:04 AM
I'm trying to think of one, but am having a hard time doing so. I guess I just feel like we could draft Jesus Christ and the Ghost of Red Grange and there's a certain group here who'd complain about it.
yep, you have to also remember that not everyone here is a fan of this franchise. Every player we bring in, brings his fans that followed him from his College. It's like partisan politics...a good deal of people will always lie and spin for his candidate. One thing for sure though...when you do this you always lose your credibility at the end of the day...cause when you build your arguments on spin, it's just a house of cards.

real
03-26-2007, 11:04 AM
If we paid him like a 5th round draft pick, that would be fine, and I'd feel the same way you do about it.

While we didn't pay him a boatload of money, we gave more than we got, and it would have been nice to have him for a second year, with a real QB.

But I think he ran off at the mouth a little too early, and the F.O. had to do something... I'd bet Dunta was given a stern talking to as well, but they aren't going to cut him.....

.Yet.

That's true....but.....

I still think they paid for what they got...

Paying a 5th round rookie isn't the same as paying a pro-bowl veteran reciever...

If they'd have paid him like a 5th round pick, I'd consider that underpaying him...

a 5th round rookie isn't going to have near the influence on the team that a vet like Eric Moulds did....JMO

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 11:04 AM
TK, you are right but I'm a big proponent of where there is smoke there is fire. It kind of follows the scenarios with players not saying Dave was a leader, etc...yet now alot of it is coming out. I just think the timing of the decision along with the hiring, etc lends to the story's probablity. Add to that the apology from McNair about making mistakes and it all folows.

If you want to speculate, go back and look at all the QBs we drafted in the 4 years under Dom Capers.... the man was hog tied & ham strung.
2002: David Carr
2003: Dave Ragone, Drew Henson
2004: B.J. Symons

4 QBs in the first three years... why??

Vinny is absolutely right IMO, calling David the Coach Killer.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 11:05 AM
You guys are unbelievable!!! You simply cannot get the VINCE YOUNG sage out of your heads!!! When will you all accept the fact that VINCE YOUNG was NEVER destined to be a TEXAN??????? Discuss the QB situation all you want, BUT, if the Texans hadn't taken Mario, Reggie Bush would have been the pick, not Vince Young. The Texans had a jersey with Bush's name on it ready for the draft last year. On Thursday night before the draft the equipment guys had to hussle to change the name to Williams.

I believe the Texans would have done the same thing last year that they did this year. They would have traded for a vet QB and drafted either Mario or Reggie. Regardless of how much some of you wanted it to happen, VY would NEVER have become a TEXAN!!!!!!!!!!
Give 'em hell Sandy.

HoustonFrog
03-26-2007, 11:11 AM
If you want to speculate, go back and look at all the QBs we drafted in the 4 years under Dom Capers.... the man was hog tied & ham strung.
2002: David Carr
2003: Dave Ragone, Drew Henson
2004: B.J. Symons

4 QBs in the first three years... why??

Vinny is absolutely right IMO, calling David the Coach Killer.

I know. There is nothing more I'll say to that. I follow that completely.

cap1
03-26-2007, 11:15 AM
So many years of Casserly/Capers making bad deals has poisoned a lot of us.

Now let's switch gears...

The 2006 Draft. Nobody should have to have the first pick in the draft when there are THREE superstars to behad (VY, RB, MW). You're going to make "the bad move" no matter who you pick out of those three. However, we got a great grade by most pundits. We picked up the DROY (Ryans) and a great Olineman in Spencer. Throw in Owen Daniels, and it was the best overall draft we've had...period.

Buchanon got dropped. One of the best decisions EVER.

Dayne signed off waivers. I laughed when we picked up Dayne, and after he willed us to a few wins...I ain't laughing anymore. Even the sports media are chuckling that Dayne has been rejuvenated here in Houston. Without DD, our running game was dismal, and in comes Dayne who practically won several of those games for us.

Vonta Leach picked up off the street. I'd never heard of him. Looking back on the threads when we acquired Vonta, I recall that even Vinny had made a comment to the effect of Vonta not being here for long or not going to be a real contributor. Well, the Giants seem to have wished THEY had picked Vonta up off the street.

Vonta Leach re-signed. Smith could have let him go to save a few bucks, but he didn't let the guy get away. Smart, smart move.

Ahman Green signed. Because of Dayne's success, I ain't laughing at this move. We run the ZB scheme, Ahman hasn't been as injured as it's been theorized around here, and the guy averages 1200 yds. a year for a decade. He's a good decision for the reason of giving us a year or two to find a solid, younger RB for the future...thus, freeing us up to draft for other needs.

Matt Schaub signed, Carr released/DD released. What a day it is when the FO is no longer making piddly little off-season moves and claiming that "we're putting the pieces of the puzzle into place, and we've really bolstered our team this year..." Instead, the moves are bold and daring...but with a high risk/high reward mentality. Schaub's not even really a risk. The guy is highly revered by Falcons fans, he moves the chains when he's in the game. He's decisive, accurate, a leader on and off the field, has better mechanics than Carr has, and Schaub is well-versed in WCO. Out of the choices of all QBs, I feel we got the one with the most up-side. Releasing Carr and DD was a statement that says "the old way of doing business" is gone. Isn't that we all wanted out of our team's FO?

But alas, we have some predicting that THE END IS NEAR! Bongo, you are scared to death of us right now. You've got a third running back for a QB, PacMan is going to be gobbling up food pellets in jail soon if he doesn't stop his behavior, and he's definitely out of the lineup for your team for awhile, so you can kiss those nice kick returns and good field position goodbye. Drew Bennet is gone. Free agents are receding from your team faster than Bud's hairline. And all the while, we're running circles around you in the off-season moves.

Yeah, I'm really scared Bongo.

Our front office is now headed up by Rick Smith. Look above at the moves I mentioned. It's clear that we're moving forward in the right direction.
And as far as Richard Justice is concerned: He's the guy who said the Astros were dead...and we know how that worked out, don't we? He's the last person that needs to predicting doom and gloom. I swear, some people just love being the spoil sport, the guy who thinks he's being a good shepherd of the flock by trying to tell all the little sheep that the big bad wolf is coming and we better look out for him.

If only there was a way for Rick Smith to fire the Houston sports writers. Surely there's a way....

Front Office, if you're reading this, this is what I have to say to you: Good job. Keep it up. You have more of my confidence NOW than you have ever had.


Best post I have read in a long time. You get rep for that.

Bongo, Keep trolling. At least Vinny enabled the bad rep. Bongo, you are getting bad rep, not because you are trolling, but your information is incorrect. Richard Smith didn't come on until after last draft.

Lucky
03-26-2007, 11:34 AM
From Justices's blog:

This argument that they gave up too much in the trade is beyond ridiculous. This argument apparently is being pushed by the thumb-suckers on talk radio. Listen, I don't know much, but I know a lot more than those chuckleheads.
Don't flatter yourself, Richard. BTW, aren't you a talk radio chucklehead, yourself?

If Matt Schaub becomes a productive starting quarterback, the trade will have been a steal. If he doesn't, everyone is going to get fired, and the Texans will be starting over one more time.Great. Let's put Kubiak and Smith on the hot seat before Schaub's taken a snap in mini-camp. I'm placing a personal moratorium on all McClain, Justice, and Lopez op-eds regarding the Texans. I can't afford wasting anymore brain space by reading these chuckleheads.

keyfro
03-26-2007, 11:36 AM
isn't this a how matt schaub holds kubiak and smith's future in his hands...not a why oh why did we not get vince young thread...go to the nfl discussion section for all of that

this marks the beginning of the future of this team...can schaub be the guy to lead this team...can he make the fans forget about the past mistakes...can he take us to the playoffs and win

Schaub_to AJ_YES!
03-26-2007, 11:40 AM
If he were to keep the Teflon Don (Carr), he would be guaranteed another LOSING season, would get blamed for not turning fool's gold into a winner and would probably not get another chance at a head coaching gig. He made the correct move in getting rid of carr now and making a move (Schaub). This will work out far better than sticking with Carr.

macaronitoni
03-26-2007, 11:41 AM
yes he did.........Kubiak told Bob McNair after watching Carr on tape that he could reclaim him.............so they paid him............that turns out to be a collassal mistake financially but the biggest reason it was terrible is the Texans could have had any QB they wanted last yr if Kubiak does not make that mistake............you guys love to revise history but the 2006 draft will be the inflection point for your next decade.............now yopu make a trade to right the wrong for a guy who is not even close to as good as any of the 3 QB you could have had and your paying him 8 mil a yr............you may feel comfortable.............but i think you just may have bought the cellar spot for the next decade............I bet Kubiak is done with in 2 yrs in houston

If Matt Schaub is everything he's supposed to be, nobody will remember the VY business. If Mario lives up to his hype this year, being healthy and all, then again, nobody will remember the VY business. And McNair has already admitted his mistake in carr and done something about it. Geez ppl let it go.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 11:45 AM
You guys just need some perspective....Bongo is a Titan homer. Don't let him yank your chain too much.

Ole Miss Texan
03-26-2007, 11:48 AM
isn't this a how matt schaub holds kubiak and smith's future in his hands...not a why oh why did we not get vince young thread...go to the nfl discussion section for all of that

this marks the beginning of the future of this team...can schaub be the guy to lead this team...can he make the fans forget about the past mistakes...can he take us to the playoffs and win

if we have a non losting season this season, nobody's going to be upset about the draft of 06 esp if schaub does well. if we go to the playoffs in 08 the media will be off our back about reggie/young once and for all.

This could make Atlant look like the worst owner ever. I don't even know what they gave up for Vick but I know it was Ladanian Tomlinson. Possibly the pick that the chargers god Merriman??? help me on that one. They traded away Brett Favre, and now I know i'm getting ahead of myself but if Schaub turns out the be Tom Brady's little brother or something...atlanta could be looking like the worst run franchise...seeing how Vick hasn't done much and may never.

i do wish the best for them and hope petrino gets them going again...however i hope we kick their but in the ATL next season. and the playoffs!

aj.
03-26-2007, 12:03 PM
I bet Dr. Bongo stays up at night fantasizing about Pac Man.

SamuraiSword
03-26-2007, 12:16 PM
Apparently not!:mad:

If it's gonna make some of you feel better to still argue who it was that made the decision to extend Carr . . . why are you insistant on leaving McNair out of the picture?

I mean, he was the one that supposedly admitted that it was a mistake last week. Was John Lopez correct in his article on Sunday that McNair's still the Teflon man?

Apparently so. (sigh)

Use common sense people it was Mcnair that extended his contract. Then we got a real GM and McNair listened to Smith now. So we dumped Carr because Smith wasn't happy with our current QB.

nunusguy
03-26-2007, 12:17 PM
I wholeheartedly endore the transaction to acquire Schaub.
Sure we are giving up valuable consideration for him, but if he wasn't worth anything, he wouldn't cost so much. And its not without uncertainty, but
we'd have even more uncertainty with "any" QB we drafted right out of college.
And regarding all of the negative flac we're getting for the pickup of Carr's option last year and the about-face with his release leading up to the Schaub move - hey, we earned it all. Own it !

aj.
03-26-2007, 12:31 PM
When you interview for big jobs, you know how to answer the important questions (well, that is if you've done your due diligence and want the job). If anyone still can't see that, then even an Aggie (John Lopez) can't help you.

Can you imagine how Petrino's interview with Art would have gone if Bobby said he preferred Matt?

Hervoyel
03-26-2007, 12:36 PM
We all speculate about the exact sequence of events in all of this and in who ultimately made the call. I'm going with Bob McNair on the decision to keep David Carr and pay him the bonus. I think Bob is the one who said go ahead and release him and I think Bob is the one who last year said "We're going to keep him".

I don't think anyone told him that salvaging David's carrer was impossible last year. Probably nobody around the Texans (incoming or outgoing) could say that with complete certainty.

I also don't believe that he was too terribly inclined to listen to Charlie Casserly at this time last season. I don't think the trust was there for Casserly to have had a great deal of influence on this decision. After the year Casserly had just taken us through I think he was simply being carried by the Texans, for possible use as a future scapegoat maybe.

Gary Kubiak clearly believed that David Carr could be saved as well.

Mostly I think that McNair, Casserly, and Kubiak all bought into the belief that Vince Young wasn't going to be able to start at the NFL level anytime soon, if ever. I think that like many of us they accepted that he was an overrated project who was going to be drafted high on the results of one very high profile game. They didn't particularly care for Leinart or Cutler at the first overall spot (can't say I blame them) and couldn't find a partner/deal they liked to trade down.

So I think Bob made the call, told them to go ahead and pay David his bonus, and probably told Kubiak privately to do his best and if it didn't work out that he wouldn't hold it against him.

That's my "pure speculation".

Vinny
03-26-2007, 12:39 PM
Mostly I think that McNair, Casserly, and Kubiak all bought into the belief that Vince Young wasn't going to be able to start at the NFL level anytime soon, if ever. I think that like many of us they accepted that he was an overrated project who was going to be drafted high on the results of one very high profile game. They didn't particularly care for Leinart or Cutler at the first overall spot (can't say I blame them) and couldn't find a partner/deal they liked to trade down.


I don't buy this at all. McNair himself told VY's Mother that if we didn't re-up Carr that he would have been the selection (at least this is what I think I know). I don't think Bob goes around telling people what they want to hear. He strikes me as too honest, and not the kind of person to say what he doesn't believe, just because you want to hear it. VY was 30-2 with TWO Rose Bowl victories in the most important games of the year...he dominated both contests when all the pressure was on him. He had much, much more than one good game. UT was not that good before Young...and weren't all that good once he left. Good thing Mack Brown got his contract last season.

Texans34Life
03-26-2007, 12:42 PM
For you Schaub haters, you haven't even given the guy 1 snap to prove to you he is our Texans QB of the future.

Give me an f'n break until the season starts. Then you can start your quacking.

Please_Evolve
03-26-2007, 12:43 PM
if we have a non losting season this season, nobody's going to be upset about the draft of 06 esp if schaub does well. if we go to the playoffs in 08 the media will be off our back about reggie/young once and for all.

This could make Atlant look like the worst owner ever. I don't even know what they gave up for Vick but I know it was Ladanian Tomlinson. Possibly the pick that the chargers god Merriman??? help me on that one. They traded away Brett Favre, and now I know i'm getting ahead of myself but if Schaub turns out the be Tom Brady's little brother or something...atlanta could be looking like the worst run franchise...seeing how Vick hasn't done much and may never.

i do wish the best for them and hope petrino gets them going again...however i hope we kick their but in the ATL next season. and the playoffs!

I know ATL at the time had the 5 pick which SD used to pick Ladanian Tomlinson. With the first pick of the second round they took Drew Brees. 3rd round they took Tay Cody.... after that not much of real notice until next year. Shawne Merrimen was the result of SD letting NY take Eli Manning. Isn't that something else...I'm sure the warm weather of SD would be a welcome change to Eli's Cold reception in NYC.

Though i do agree for the medi to get off of it. Mario's going to have to play well next year and i'm sure that will happen barring another injury. Matt Scaub doesn't have to bea pro bowler but be a competant QB. If he has around a 20-10 3000 season and we go 8-8. Consider the trade well worthwhile and the texans and their fans smirking.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 12:44 PM
When you interview for big jobs, you know how to answer the important questions (well, that is if you've done your due diligence and want the job). If anyone still can't see that, then even an Aggie (John Lopez) can't help you.

Can you imagine how Petrino's interview with Art would have gone if Bobby said he preferred Matt?I agree with this entirely. McNair came out and was almost arrogant when he stated that one coach said that he wouldn't come here if Young were the pick. I'm convinced that McNair had an attraction to Carr that hurt this franchise and he was hell bent on getting a coach with a proven record with QB's to "save" Carr's career.

real
03-26-2007, 12:46 PM
I don't buy this at all. McNair himself told VY's Mother that if we didn't re-up Carr that he would have been the selection (at least this is what I think I know). I don't think Bob goes around telling people what they want to hear. He strikes me as too honest, and not the kind of person to say what he doesn't believe, just because you want to hear it. VY was 30-2 with TWO Rose Bowl victories in the most important games of the year...he dominated both contests when all the pressure was on him. He had much, much more than one good game. UT was not that good before Young...and weren't all that good once he left. Good thing Mack Brown got his contract last season.

I agree.

And besides, I don't see Kubiak as the kind of coach that condemns players like that...Especially not players with all of VY's capabilities and accomplishments....

It would seem odd to me if he looked at Carr and thought "this is my guy" and then looked at VY coming out of college and thought "he'll never be anything".....

That wouldn't make much sense...

nunusguy
03-26-2007, 12:47 PM
Can you imagine how Petrino's interview with Art would have gone if Bobby said he preferred Matt?
Actually, I hope very much that Kubiak atleast told "Bob" last year that he
had some reservations about Carr's ability to be our QB, or he couldn't form
an opinion based upon what he knew without coaching him, spending some
time with him in a coach-to-player situation.
Otherwise Kubiak gave him a line of BS, or worse his judgement about Carr was as bad as McNairs and Casserlys.

real
03-26-2007, 12:49 PM
Actually, I hope very much that Kubiak atleast told "Bob" last year that he
had some reservations about Carr's ability to be our QB, or he couldn't form
an opinion based upon what he knew without coaching him, spending some
time with him in a coach-to-player situation.
Otherwise Kubiak gave him a line of BS, or worse his judgement about Carr was as bad as McNairs and Casserlys.

I don't think it goes any deeper than Kubiak wanting a job....

not to mention a job for his hometown team.

Hervoyel
03-26-2007, 12:55 PM
Of course he had much more going for him than one good game. I'm not saying he didn't and I want to make that clear. That last Rose Bowl game was enormous however and prior to that he wasn't on very many peoples draft radar. He was a junior and there was all that talk about how his game wouldn't necessarily translate into the NFL. When the Titans picked him there was plenty of second guessing about how long he would take to become the starter. Some sports writers were talking a year or two. I know you remember all of that Vinny. You didn't agree with it at the time but I know you had to have seen it.

I'll bet the ranch that Bob McNair has told plenty of people what they wanted to hear in his lifetime. Nobody can possibly amass that kind of fortune without being diplomatic. Telling Vince Youngs mother that he would have been our pick if we didn't already have our "franchise quarterback" signed is the epitome of being diplomatic. That's especially true when almost the entire city is foaming at the mouth crazy to sign the local hero.

I think Bob made the decision to keep Carr and told his people to do so. I don't think Bob McNair is the best judge of football talent in the world. I suspect that the "Vince Young's game won't translate" angle gained a little traction with him. I suspect that he thought we could get better faster under Kubiak if we kept David Carr.

It's just my speculation. It could be completely off base but it seems quite reasonable to me.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 12:58 PM
Of course he had much more going for him than one good game. I'm not saying he didn't and I want to make that clear. That last Rose Bowl game was enormous however and prior to that he wasn't on very many peoples draft radar. I'd totally disagree...he was on everyone's top QB prospect list. You just bought into the "VY will drop based on his wonder lick" stuff I guess (since the reality was he didn't drop at all). This is the time of year when you hear lies, more lies...and a few more.

hollywood_texan
03-26-2007, 01:00 PM
Actually, I hope very much that Kubiak atleast told "Bob" last year that he
had some reservations about Carr's ability to be our QB, or he couldn't form
an opinion based upon what he knew without coaching him, spending some
time with him in a coach-to-player situation.
Otherwise Kubiak gave him a line of BS, or worse his judgement about Carr was as bad as McNairs and Casserlys.
This is exactly my concern.

Every one just assumes the Schuab decision is Kubiak/Smith's decision. It was the assumption last year that Kubiak was sold on Carr and we now know that wasn't the case.

Bottom line, the Texans are swinging for the fence when they really don't need to do at this juncture. This team could improve from last year without Schuab and have flexibility for the future. Great prospects are available every year!

It's very possible McNair is driving this situation because he could have required a big name splash if Carr was getting dumped by Kubiak/Smith. So in that scenario, Kubiak/Smith are just trying to handle the best of a very bad situation because they decided they don't won't Carr.

Now if McNair has put zero pressure or requirements on the Kubiak/Smith regarding the QB position in whatever they decided, basically just sign the checks as long as due diligence is performed, then I am fine with this as a season ticketholder.

But, I seriously doubt McNair has just took a backseat to decisions regarding key personnel.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 01:00 PM
VY was 30-2 with TWO Rose Bowl victories in the most important games of the year...he dominated both contests when all the pressure was on him. He had much, much more than one good game.

And there was a dramatic difference in his throwing game between his sophomore & junior seasons. The talk was non-stop about how Vince prepared himself in the off-season, how he challenged his teammates to be better than they were, and how he even influenced the coach on things as small as playing music during practice, to things as large as their offensive system.

If anyone can look at Vince Young, and say they honestly don't see any of the traits that makes a great QB, then that person has no idea what it takes to be a great QB.

You like Lienart better...... that's fine. If you think Cutler was the best QB in the '06 draft... that's fine. But don't say Vince doesn't have "it"

Hervoyel
03-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Yeah, well I'm just a fan Vinny and yes I bought into it. I am asserting that deep down inside Bob McNair isn't a whole lot more than that either. It's not hard to account for some of the Texans moves when you think of it that way. That's what I think.

real
03-26-2007, 01:03 PM
I'd totally disagree...he was on everyone's top QB prospect list. You just bought into the "VY will drop based on his wonder lick" stuff I guess (since the reality was he didn't drop at all). This is the time of year when you hear lies, more lies...and a few more.

Not only that...

Everyone assumed he'd be going back to school for his senior year....

Everyone "knew" Reggie would be coming out, and you definitely knew Leinart had to...

Vince's plans weren't known until a short while after the rose bowl...


I for one didn't think Vince would come out, so until I found out he was I wasn't even talking about him draft wise...

Hervoyel
03-26-2007, 01:07 PM
I know that following that second Rose Bowl game I very much dreaded seeing Vince Young come out. My primary reason was that I wanted the Texans to draft Reggie Bush at the time and I thought Vince Young declaring would really cloud the issue (and obviously it did). I also thought that it would be perfect if we could get a year with Carr & Kubiak to see if this could be made to work and then if it didn't we could target Vince Young in the 2007 draft.

Of course none of that happened and he was smart to come out when he did. That's just what I was hoping for last year prior to Vince declaring.

Vinny
03-26-2007, 01:10 PM
Yeah, well I'm just a fan Vinny and yes I bought into it. I am asserting that deep down inside Bob McNair isn't a whole more than that either. It's not hard to account for some of the Texans moves when you think of it that way. That's what I think. I hear you, and I agree with most of your points as you are well thought out and quite often spot on...but I find it hard to believe people hang on to what people say right before the draft.

Carl Poston had a great line when he said, "when it comes to the draft you can believe everything you hear in March, but you should forget everything you hear in April".

real
03-26-2007, 01:11 PM
I know that following that second Rose Bowl game I very much dreaded seeing Vince Young come out. My primary reason was that I wanted the Texans to draft Reggie Bush at the time and I thought Vince Young declaring would really cloud the issue (and obviously it did). I also thought that it would be perfect if we could get a year with Carr & Kubiak to see if this could be made to work and then if it didn't we could target Vince Young in the 2007 draft.

Of course none of that happened and he was smart to come out when he did. That's just what I was hoping for last year prior to Vince declaring.

I pretty much was hoping for the same exact thing, with the same exact reasoning.

thunderkyss
03-26-2007, 01:11 PM
Of course he had much more going for him than one good game. I'm not saying he didn't and I want to make that clear. That last Rose Bowl game was enormous however and prior to that he wasn't on very many peoples draft radar. He was a junior and there was all that talk about how his game wouldn't necessarily translate into the NFL. When the Titans picked him there was plenty of second guessing about how long he would take to become the starter. Some sports writers were talking a year or two. I know you remember all of that Vinny. You didn't agree with it at the time but I know you had to have seen it.

True enough there were some beat writers, and ESPN schmucks trying to "force" the Texans to Draft Reggie Bush, and it got even worse when Vince Declared. But as soon as he did, he was the top rated QB in the draft, just like Jamarcus Russell leapfrogged Quinn.

I personally don't feel like Tennessee had any doubt that Vince was the best QB in that draft, regardless what people want to say about Norm Chow & Jeff Fischer. McNair had to go, because they wanted to start a new QB. & they didn't want McNair getting them close to a play-off berth, knowing they would be lucky to get in, and not going very far(kinda like Denver benching Plummer in spite of a 7-4 division leading record.)

They knew it was going to be Vince, or Matt. & once they knew it was Vince, they had to get rid of Volek, because they were going to start Vince ASAP. Hence the Kerry Collins signing. There is only one reason to sign Kerry Collins, and that's so the decision to start Young won't be questioned.

aj.
03-26-2007, 05:18 PM
Actually, I hope very much that Kubiak atleast told "Bob" last year that he
had some reservations about Carr's ability to be our QB, or he couldn't form
an opinion based upon what he knew without coaching him, spending some
time with him in a coach-to-player situation.
.

I can't imagine going into the most important interview in my life without a firm position on the most important issue/question. Giving an answer like "well, I'm really not sure about him" would have made me question the guy's prep and decision making ability if I was on that panel.

Otherwise Kubiak gave him a line of BS, or worse his judgement about Carr was as bad as McNairs and Casserlys.

Or he told them what they wanted to hear, even if he only believed it to be partly true. Kubiak may have truly believed that he could save Carr. Only until he started really working with him did he realize how damaged the goods were.

Bongo59
03-26-2007, 07:49 PM
So many years of Casserly/Capers making bad deals has poisoned a lot of us.

Now let's switch gears...

The 2006 Draft. Nobody should have to have the first pick in the draft when there are THREE superstars to behad (VY, RB, MW). You're going to make "the bad move" no matter who you pick out of those three. However, we got a great grade by most pundits. We picked up the DROY (Ryans) and a great Olineman in Spencer. Throw in Owen Daniels, and it was the best overall draft we've had...period.

Buchanon got dropped. One of the best decisions EVER.

Dayne signed off waivers. I laughed when we picked up Dayne, and after he willed us to a few wins...I ain't laughing anymore. Even the sports media are chuckling that Dayne has been rejuvenated here in Houston. Without DD, our running game was dismal, and in comes Dayne who practically won several of those games for us.

Vonta Leach picked up off the street. I'd never heard of him. Looking back on the threads when we acquired Vonta, I recall that even Vinny had made a comment to the effect of Vonta not being here for long or not going to be a real contributor. Well, the Giants seem to have wished THEY had picked Vonta up off the street.

Vonta Leach re-signed. Smith could have let him go to save a few bucks, but he didn't let the guy get away. Smart, smart move.

Ahman Green signed. Because of Dayne's success, I ain't laughing at this move. We run the ZB scheme, Ahman hasn't been as injured as it's been theorized around here, and the guy averages 1200 yds. a year for a decade. He's a good decision for the reason of giving us a year or two to find a solid, younger RB for the future...thus, freeing us up to draft for other needs.

Matt Schaub signed, Carr released/DD released. What a day it is when the FO is no longer making piddly little off-season moves and claiming that "we're putting the pieces of the puzzle into place, and we've really bolstered our team this year..." Instead, the moves are bold and daring...but with a high risk/high reward mentality. Schaub's not even really a risk. The guy is highly revered by Falcons fans, he moves the chains when he's in the game. He's decisive, accurate, a leader on and off the field, has better mechanics than Carr has, and Schaub is well-versed in WCO. Out of the choices of all QBs, I feel we got the one with the most up-side. Releasing Carr and DD was a statement that says "the old way of doing business" is gone. Isn't that we all wanted out of our team's FO?

But alas, we have some predicting that THE END IS NEAR! Bongo, you are scared to death of us right now. You've got a third running back for a QB, PacMan is going to be gobbling up food pellets in jail soon if he doesn't stop his behavior, and he's definitely out of the lineup for your team for awhile, so you can kiss those nice kick returns and good field position goodbye. Drew Bennet is gone. Free agents are receding from your team faster than Bud's hairline. And all the while, we're running circles around you in the off-season moves.

Yeah, I'm really scared Bongo.

Our front office is now headed up by Rick Smith. Look above at the moves I mentioned. It's clear that we're moving forward in the right direction.
And as far as Richard Justice is concerned: He's the guy who said the Astros were dead...and we know how that worked out, don't we? He's the last person that needs to predicting doom and gloom. I swear, some people just love being the spoil sport, the guy who thinks he's being a good shepherd of the flock by trying to tell all the little sheep that the big bad wolf is coming and we better look out for him.

If only there was a way for Rick Smith to fire the Houston sports writers. Surely there's a way....

Front Office, if you're reading this, this is what I have to say to you: Good job. Keep it up. You have more of my confidence NOW than you have ever had.
youre nuts.............the Texan FO has demostrated how bad they are over and over again............the one constant............Bob McNair. With VY at the helm I think we will be OK................The moves this Texans team makes every off season make you scratch your head.

keyfro
03-26-2007, 07:52 PM
well what you have here is the fact that it was gonna be hard for any coach to get the job last year without taking on david carr as the starter...mcnair wanted to see what david could do with the right coach and with a good set up around him...david deserved that...he got that this past season and didn't perform at a level that mcnair was happy with...so he's gone

kubiak agreed to take on the task of trying to develop carr...he didn't want a rookie QB which i think is even more evident with the move to get schaub...and i think during the course of the season kubiak realized that carr was simply too shell shocked to coached up anymore...personally i still think carr needs to sit a season before he will calm down in the pocket

now we have smith as the GM and with kubiak went out and got schaub to lead this team...they have hitched their career wagons to him and will either succeed or fail with his performance

i'm not much of a betting man but if i had to bet on whether they all succeed i'd be putting money down that they do :poker:

DocBar
03-26-2007, 07:58 PM
I didn't read all the posts in this thread, so I hope this haasn't been posted.
The way I see it, Kubes had Carr's option picked up and is mainly responsible for it. In hindsight(for some, it was foresight by several years) it was a huge mistake. I was one of the biggest whiners about overpaying Schaub(STILL WANT THIS YEARS 2ND!!!) and also about getting nothing for Carr. I hope I'm proven wrong on the 1st count and seemingly(by recent articles) HAVE been proven wrong on the second. I give props to Kubiak for having MAJOR stones in admitting he ws wrong about Carr and also to Smith for doing what he could to correct it.