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View Full Version : Now we will know if its the OL or not.


gtexan02
03-22-2007, 09:40 AM
I just saw a freaky stat. In 2 career starts (those are the only games that really matter), Schaub was sacked 12, count them TWELVE times.

potisyourfriend
03-22-2007, 09:48 AM
But only 1 fumble.. :)

Cgold
03-22-2007, 09:58 AM
He has no idea what he just stepped into.. haha
:yikes:

real
03-22-2007, 09:59 AM
Schaub has what David wants.


Pocket presence.

Cgold
03-22-2007, 10:06 AM
:um: No one has any idea what Schaub has..I wouldn't crown him yet...but hey...
"if you want to crown his A** then crown it"!!!! :)

Lucky
03-22-2007, 10:15 AM
I just saw a freaky stat. In 2 career starts (those are the only games that really matter), Schaub was sacked 12, count them TWELVE times.
That is not correct. Schaub has been sacked 12 times in his career, but 6 times in his 2 starts (3 sacks in each game). It should be noted that the Falcons have been among the league leaders (or losers) in sacks allowed over the course of Schaub's career in ATL.

4Texans
03-22-2007, 10:17 AM
I've been thinking the same thing.

jerek
03-22-2007, 10:21 AM
I'd love to read a post on this nauseatingly repetititve topic that avoids implied or stated oversimplification. It isn't and never was an "either/or"--ALL of our sacks and losses caused by EITHER Carr sucked OR the O-line sucked. It was a lot of both as well as other problems relating to lack of talent or scheme on both sides of the ball. I know it's a lot easier to describe an either/or scenario, but I'd expect better of you in particular gtexan02.

real
03-22-2007, 10:21 AM
The title of the thread should be, "Now you will realize it wasn't the O-line".

kastofsna
03-22-2007, 10:30 AM
That is not correct. Schaub has been sacked 12 times in his career, but 6 times in his 2 starts (3 sacks in each game). It should be noted that the Falcons have been among the league leaders (or losers) in sacks allowed over the course of Schaub's career in ATL.
glad to see this correction.

as for the o-line vs. carr....clearly both were lacking. so, you went and addressed one of those areas. now, it's time to focus on the line.

A Texan
03-22-2007, 10:39 AM
Getting sacked a lot doesn't mean a QB can't produce. Eli Manning was sacked 8 times last fall in a game against Philadelphia, but still rallied the Giants to a 30-24 win.

Texans Horror
03-22-2007, 10:45 AM
O-line is still worthless. Schaub won't change it, though he may be able to deal with it better.

Glad to see the Texans would prefer to find players to deal with their problems rather than fix them...

:sarcasm:

Tailgate
03-22-2007, 10:46 AM
O-line is still worthless. Schaub won't change it, though he may be able to deal with it better.

Glad to see the Texans would prefer to find players to deal with their problems rather than fix them...

:sarcasm:

Who says Spencer wont come back healthy? Who says we wont draft Levi Brown? Lots of time left.

Texans Horror
03-22-2007, 10:48 AM
Who says Spencer wont come back healthy? Who says we wont draft Levi Brown? Lots of time left.

Who says Spencer was that good when he was healthy? Who says Levi Brown is the fix?

gtexan02
03-22-2007, 11:07 AM
Firstly, sorry for posting the incorrect stats. ESPN this morning on sportscenter did a comparison of the two QBs in terms of starts, and I can quote them as saying "In Schaub's two starts he has been sacked a total of 12 times" or something to that effect. Sorry for not looking it up.

Now then, heres what I intended with this thread.
Are all Sacks the fault of the OL? No.
Are all sacks the fault of the QB? No.
What percentage of the sacks allowed are on the QB compared to what percent are on the OL speaks volumes as to:
1) A QBs pocket presence and/or scrambling ability
2) The ability of your QB to read defenses correctly
3) The ability of your WRs/TEs to get open on passing downs
4) The successfulness of your run game at preventing the blitz
5) The successfulness of your HC at calling plays that maximize your success based on the previous 4 (See Sean Payton for a great example of this).

Now I know the title of the thread was now we will know whether the OL or Carr has been to blame for the sacks over the past 5 years, but what it should have been was Now we will know how MUCH the OL should have been blamed for carr's sacks over the years.

We picked up no high profile OL FAs. Rookie OL is always a risk, no matter how high they may be drafted (even D'Brick struggled last year, and I have no doubt JT will this year). As such, we will have minimal changes in our offensive line this season.
Theoretically Carr will be mvoed to another team where he will get a chance to start or compete for the starting job.
Hopefully he'll start.
We can then watch Schaub and Carr perform as starters and compare them to the previous year's starters and their success.
If Carr continues to set records for sacks somewhere else with a supposed better OL, we can conclude that his pocket presence has been the worst member of OL all along.
If Schaub comes in and becomes Carr redux, then we'll know that our OL really is that bad.

The thing with the stats was that Schaub supposedly has great awareness in the pocket. If he has been sacked 12 (or even 6) times in 2 games as a starter, it means TO ME that ATL has an OL problem. Maybe its his lack of experience, but most likely its a combination of OL having no idea how to block for a pocket QB and coaches not knowing how to call plays for a pocket QB. So if a guy who has a lot of sacks comes in to Houston and suddenly our OL gives up half the number of sacks as last year, we will know whether or not its the OL.

Do you get what I'm saying?

hadaad
03-22-2007, 11:11 AM
Who says Spencer was that good when he was healthy? Who says Levi Brown is the fix?

Tell me, then, Mr. T. What do you want to do for the O-line? Personally, I thought the O-line was a little better last year. Rookies take time to develop and it seems to me that Kubiak has at least a little confidence in Winston, given that Weigart (Wiegart? Weigert? Wiegert? Man, I'm glad that guy's gone. His name is hard to spell) was released. I have no idea what's happening with Spencer. He says he'll be good to go but I would still want to draft a guy for camp competition and as a just-in-case.

Please, rather than say who isn't the solution, what is the solution?

real
03-22-2007, 11:15 AM
The only way we are drafting Levi Brown is if the KNOW Spencer won't be back healthy, or there are SERIOUS doubts.

If he is showing progress in their eyes, we probably won't be taking a tackle untill the 4th or 5th round at the highest.


I don't see many O-lineman in our draft future.

1 player on the line started every game for us last year...season ends, and Kubiak says we need more playmakers....never really talked about the O-line as a problem....

David Sucks behind the line, Sage does good...

exscuses are made....oh well...

The line isn't as big of a problem as a QB that held the ball too long, had no pocket presence, couldn't read defenses and was allergic to the deep middle.

Texans Horror
03-22-2007, 11:31 AM
Please, rather than say who isn't the solution, what is the solution?

Sorry, but since OL is the bulk of what I post on, I didn't explain. Plus, I was answering directly to that post. Let me break this down.

Personally, I thought the O-line was a little better last year.

The line showed improvement is scant praise. To compare any line to the 2005 line is not worth discussing. Last season, the QB showed improvement at being able to get off the pass before the defense got to him. When he started to regress in this ability, he lost his game.

Rookies take time to develop and it seems to me that Kubiak has at least a little confidence in Winston, given that Weigart (Wiegart? Weigert? Wiegert? Man, I'm glad that guy's gone. His name is hard to spell) was released.

I lobbied on the boards for the Texans to draft Winston, knowing that he was a project rookie as opposed to an instant impact draft pick. I still think he will make a fine right tackle for the Texans and was a good pick. I've wanted Weigert gone for a while now.

Tell me, then, Mr. T. What do you want to do for the O-line?

Three ways you fix the o-line and sacks problem:

1. Center: Draft Kalil. Trade up in second round, if need be, but Kalil is the answer for the interior problems. Also fixes a lot of run-game problems.

2. Left Tackle: Playing GM for a day, I would have done what's needed to sign a LT who looked just as good as Spencer but has never been injured and knows the coach's scheme. Seth Wand. But we all know rather than pay vet minimum for a guy who knows the system and what's going on, we'll go find somebody new and overpay (Black).

I know most everybody on the board hates Wand. So if I'm not going that route, I look at Joe Staley in the third, possibly.

I have no idea what's happening with Spencer. He says he'll be good to go but I would still want to draft a guy for camp competition and as a just-in-case.

Left Tackle is a hard question. The Texans really shot themselves on the foot on this one (unfortunately, it reminds me too much of last year's fiasco at running back - could it be that we see the Texans rotating left tackles like they did RBs?), with their only option to be hope that Spencer comes back and performs much better, or that Black is the answer. Personally, I think neither are.

3. Shotgun formation. Carr knew it well at Fresno State, and it would give him that extra second or two to get off a pass or (more likely) dodge somebody coming in off the tackles. I know it's a simple solution and doesn't involve spending millions of dollars on a shiny new penny, but I think it will work.

By the way, it's good to see another pilgarlic on the boards, though I for one am more by design.

afcman
03-22-2007, 11:40 AM
Now we will know if its the OL or not.

That was kind-of answered for ME last year when Sage stepped in. To me it seemed the whole OL stepped up. It was slightly more evidence that the team didn't have a lot of respect for Carr. And when Sage came in it was as if the guys said "OK, lets get going now."

I sense the OL will want to prove something this next season. Like saying "it wasn't all us people."

jerek
03-22-2007, 11:47 AM
Now I know the title of the thread was now we will know whether the OL or Carr has been to blame for the sacks over the past 5 years, but what it should have been was Now we will know how MUCH the OL should have been blamed for carr's sacks over the years.

We picked up no high profile OL FAs. Rookie OL is always a risk, no matter how high they may be drafted (even D'Brick struggled last year, and I have no doubt JT will this year). As such, we will have minimal changes in our offensive line this season.
Theoretically Carr will be mvoed to another team where he will get a chance to start or compete for the starting job.
Hopefully he'll start.
We can then watch Schaub and Carr perform as starters and compare them to the previous year's starters and their success.
If Carr continues to set records for sacks somewhere else with a supposed better OL, we can conclude that his pocket presence has been the worst member of OL all along.
If Schaub comes in and becomes Carr redux, then we'll know that our OL really is that bad.

The thing with the stats was that Schaub supposedly has great awareness in the pocket. If he has been sacked 12 (or even 6) times in 2 games as a starter, it means TO ME that ATL has an OL problem. Maybe its his lack of experience, but most likely its a combination of OL having no idea how to block for a pocket QB and coaches not knowing how to call plays for a pocket QB. So if a guy who has a lot of sacks comes in to Houston and suddenly our OL gives up half the number of sacks as last year, we will know whether or not its the OL.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Understand and I agree, but again, it's important to analyze within context to the extent possible. Your scenario of recording "half the sacks" next year could also be due to the return of Spencer, the increased cohesion of our O-line, our offensive playcalling, the establishment of Green as a run threat or backfield receiver, etc. etc., rather than just ABC.

I think you and many other posters on this board are capable of analyzing things in just such a context and obviously given so many variables we will always be able to reach slightly different conclusions. I just wanted to point out that many people oversimplify the question and the answer.

I'm also troubled by Schaub "supposedly having great awareness in the pocket," again because we just don't have the luxury of a lot of snaps to study, but here again I am willing to adopt a wait and see approach.

hadaad
03-22-2007, 11:48 AM
Sorry, but since OL is the bulk of what I post on, I didn't explain. Plus, I was answering directly to that post. Let me break this down.



Those are very good statements. I don't hate Seth Wand. He was the anchor for 7-9. And he's GOT to be a better player than Ephraim Salaam.

I agree with much of what you said. Obviously drafting Kalil in the second is not a possibility now but who knows? If the FO thinks he's worth it, maybe they do a long trade down, pick him up in the late-first, and pick up a late-second to go with him... I don't think that Left Tackle is a dead possibility in this draft. I wouldn't mind seeing if Harris is there in the third, or maybe one of the other second-tier guys.

As for the shingle-free roof, it was a race to the back of my head and the razor won. Just barely.

hadaad
03-22-2007, 11:51 AM
Understand and I agree, but again, it's important to analyze within context to the extent possible. Your scenario of recording "half the sacks" next year could also be due to the return of Spencer, the increased cohesion of our O-line, our offensive playcalling, the establishment of Green as a run threat or backfield receiver, etc. etc., rather than just ABC.

I think you and many other posters on this board are capable of analyzing things in just such a context and obviously given so many variables we will always be able to reach slightly different conclusions. I just wanted to point out that many people oversimplify the question and the answer.

I'm also troubled by Schaub "supposedly having great awareness in the pocket," again because we just don't have the luxury of a lot of snaps to study, but here again I am willing to adopt a wait and see approach.

To qualify: I don't have any strong opinions about why we gave up so many sacks.

I don't care why the sack number goes down. If it does and that translates to more scoring and the more scoring translates to more wins, I'm happy.

If ABC is the reason, fine. If Spencer and the running game (assuming Dayne doesn't repeat his assault on our fine young tackle) are the reason, fine.

UHHEAVEN
03-22-2007, 11:53 AM
Don't Worry It Was The Ol. Lets Just Hope The Fo Is Doing Something About It. Cause We Sure Did Turn Steak Into Spam W/ Dc!!! He Is Now Damaged Goods. Now We Have To Have A Garage Sale To Get Anything For Him!!!!!!

hadaad
03-22-2007, 12:13 PM
Don't Worry It Was The Ol. Lets Just Hope The Fo Is Doing Something About It. Cause We Sure Did Turn Steak Into Spam W/ Dc!!! He Is Now Damaged Goods. Now We Have To Have A Garage Sale To Get Anything For Him!!!!!!

That's an awesome title. Why Do You Capitalize The First Letter Of Every Word? It Makes Your Post Almost Unreadable.

afcman
03-22-2007, 12:14 PM
Why Do You Capitalize The First Letter Of Every Word? It Makes Your Post Almost Unreadable.

:) LOL.

2BCF
03-22-2007, 12:21 PM
The title of the thread should be, "Now you will realize it wasn't the O-line".

Yep, but most of us realized this ages ago.
And the Titans game busted that myth when Sage threw for 3TDs in just over 1 QTR of play.
It would take Carr another 5 GAMES to get 3TDs.

srstex
03-22-2007, 12:39 PM
FO just signed a back up from the team that lead the NFL in rushing 2 years in a row, that alone gets you 1 extra second to scan the field over, at least. FO signed a real RB, with more history then future, with more fumbles then Carr, but is an improvment to last year. FO signed Black at LT, and Sallam, so after 5 years 5 OC and 2 HC we still don't have a true good starting LT ? And Kubiak/FO is doing a good job ? Please. Kubiak is a QB guru, ooh wait the last SB Elway was there, since that Kubiak hasn't been back, so process of elemination says that Elway/Shanahan not Kubiak won those 2 SB. As to the team getting behind Sage, that the O-line had no respect for David, I can say only 1 thing, " The best place to start change is with the easiest place to make a change with yourself ". The problem with our team from day 1 has been the O-line, everything else is a symptom. Looking at the new Texans lineup, if we have a good year we won't be able to say one thing did the trick, because so many changes have been made. One perdiction for all us fans , don't expect AJ in the probowl anytime soon.

UHHEAVEN
03-22-2007, 02:15 PM
That's an awesome title. Why Do You Capitalize The First Letter Of Every Word? It Makes Your Post Almost Unreadable.

You Read It So That A Stupid Comment!!!

Vinny
03-22-2007, 02:17 PM
That's an awesome title. Why Do You Capitalize The First Letter Of Every Word? It Makes Your Post Almost Unreadable.
He typed it in all caps...we have an all cap lock diffuser on.

jvaldez1984
03-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Who says Spencer was that good when he was healthy? Who says Levi Brown is the fix?

simon says...

Runner
03-22-2007, 05:50 PM
I want to see how the o-line holds up when they have are in an offense that uses a normal number of five and seven step drops. Much of last year's "improvements" were due to the fact that they used quick throws to beat the pressure. There were also several games when the Texans couldn't run at all. That has to improve too - they need a consistent running game.

I expect the Texans to make at least one more move on the o-line; probably two. Tackle quality/depth and center still look weak to me.

potisyourfriend
03-22-2007, 05:53 PM
That was kind-of answered for ME last year when Sage stepped in. To me it seemed the whole OL stepped up. It was slightly more evidence that the team didn't have a lot of respect for Carr. And when Sage came in it was as if the guys said "OK, lets get going now."

I sense the OL will want to prove something this next season. Like saying "it wasn't all us people."



As it should be because some were hurt last year.. But I agree, the OL is a scape goat for Carrs failures.. Last year the O-Line was middle of the pack even with the musical chairs of switching around guys..

Goldeagle
03-22-2007, 05:59 PM
Schaub has what David wants.


Pocket presence.

Carr just wanted a pocket.

Now we will see if Jordan Black and Spencer pan out. Of course if they do, Carr fans say its an improved O-line and if it doesnt...I guess we can blame Schaub for sucking.

Gamehorn25
03-22-2007, 06:11 PM
At the end of last season our OL was good enough for us to run for over 150 yards in a couple straight games. Carr could not complete a pass to save his life, but our OL was really good at run-blocking for a few games which they could not do before. It was very uplifting to see them able to run the ball like that.

hadaad
03-22-2007, 06:33 PM
He typed it in all caps...we have an all cap lock diffuser on.

Ahh, all-caps. I went to one of their meetings, once. That diffuser is a great idea.

hadaad
03-22-2007, 06:34 PM
You Read It So That A Stupid Comment!!!

To be fair, I did say almost unreadable.

TwinSisters
03-22-2007, 06:47 PM
By the way, it's good to see another pilgarlic on the boards, though I for one am more by design.

busting out with the pilgarlic. Adscripticius fiend.

Navy_Chris
03-22-2007, 06:49 PM
I just saw a freaky stat. In 2 career starts (those are the only games that really matter), Schaub was sacked 12, count them TWELVE times.

Lets hope that we fix the OL once and for all. I'm in favor of trading David Carr and a 4th round pick to the Dolphins in exchange for their 2nd round pick in next month's draft. We should then use that 2nd round pick to draft Justin Blalock and then follow that up by drafting Ryan Harris in the 3rd.

TwinSisters
03-22-2007, 06:50 PM
I want to see how the o-line holds up when they have are in an offense that uses a normal number of five and seven step drops. Much of last year's "improvements" were due to the fact that they used quick throws to beat the pressure. There were also several games when the Texans couldn't run at all. That has to improve too - they need a consistent running game.

I expect the Texans to make at least one more move on the o-line; probably two. Tackle quality/depth and center still look weak to me.

The three step drops were bread and butter in Green Bay during Sherman's reign.

GNTLEWOLF
03-23-2007, 05:22 AM
Firstly, sorry for posting the incorrect stats. ESPN this morning on sportscenter did a comparison of the two QBs in terms of starts, and I can quote them as saying "In Schaub's two starts he has been sacked a total of 12 times" or something to that effect. Sorry for not looking it up.

Now then, heres what I intended with this thread.
Are all Sacks the fault of the OL? No.
Are all sacks the fault of the QB? No.
What percentage of the sacks allowed are on the QB compared to what percent are on the OL speaks volumes as to:
1) A QBs pocket presence and/or scrambling ability
2) The ability of your QB to read defenses correctly
3) The ability of your WRs/TEs to get open on passing downs
4) The successfulness of your run game at preventing the blitz
5) The successfulness of your HC at calling plays that maximize your success based on the previous 4 (See Sean Payton for a great example of this).

Now I know the title of the thread was now we will know whether the OL or Carr has been to blame for the sacks over the past 5 years, but what it should have been was Now we will know how MUCH the OL should have been blamed for carr's sacks over the years.

We picked up no high profile OL FAs. Rookie OL is always a risk, no matter how high they may be drafted (even D'Brick struggled last year, and I have no doubt JT will this year). As such, we will have minimal changes in our offensive line this season.
Theoretically Carr will be mvoed to another team where he will get a chance to start or compete for the starting job.
Hopefully he'll start.
We can then watch Schaub and Carr perform as starters and compare them to the previous year's starters and their success.
If Carr continues to set records for sacks somewhere else with a supposed better OL, we can conclude that his pocket presence has been the worst member of OL all along.
If Schaub comes in and becomes Carr redux, then we'll know that our OL really is that bad.

The thing with the stats was that Schaub supposedly has great awareness in the pocket. If he has been sacked 12 (or even 6) times in 2 games as a starter, it means TO ME that ATL has an OL problem. Maybe its his lack of experience, but most likely its a combination of OL having no idea how to block for a pocket QB and coaches not knowing how to call plays for a pocket QB. So if a guy who has a lot of sacks comes in to Houston and suddenly our OL gives up half the number of sacks as last year, we will know whether or not its the OL.

Do you get what I'm saying?

I am a David Carr fan, but he is the past, Matt Schaub is our present. I always thought our o-line carried the bulk of responsibility for the sacks and lack of rushing yards. Having said that, I now hope more than anything else that I was wrong. Is there really anyone who is a Texans fan that hopes it was the O-line all along and not Carr now?
If it was the O-line, we had better pick o-line in the draft and hope for real starter material, because if we don't Schaub will be beaten to a pulp like Carr was. And there is no guarantee he will be able to keep on getting up time and again. I don't want to see another person with potential ruined by the kind of stupidity that has kept this organization from really addressing o-line in depth like it hasn't addressed that problem since the franchise was founded. I am now a Matt Schaub fan.
If it Wasn't the O-line, and Schaub manages a viable downfield passing game, with few sacks, then everyone who defended Carr will have to eat a lot of crow. I like mine well done with gravy, thank you. I hope for Schaub's sake That we all have to eat that dish.

Kaiser Toro
03-23-2007, 05:53 AM
Whether Carr was back or not we were making changes and would continue to upgrade. What is most important is that the Texans are doing things differently these days from a personnel standpoint. They got a RB who knows how to block, they brought in a QB who stands two inches taller and does not have a side arm delivery, they re-signed Bruenner and with no FB "potentially" on next year's roster we may finally see a dynamic offense that leverages strengths and does not have to compensate for the weaknesses of it's signal caller.

I believe the best thing we have done for our Oline this year was acquiring Schaub. Now let's concentrate on that secondary and getting Kalil.

Texans Horror
03-23-2007, 08:55 AM
At the end of last season our OL was good enough for us to run for over 150 yards in a couple straight games. Carr could not complete a pass to save his life, but our OL was really good at run-blocking for a few games which they could not do before. It was very uplifting to see them able to run the ball like that.

I give that credit to Dayne, not the line. He tended to push Texans linemen out of the way and force back defensive players. Real brutal stuff. Hopefully the Texans will learn how to make a lane. I don't have much faith, though. Dayne and Green both make their holes.

Glad to see another example of the FO finding players to work around the problem rather than actually fixing the problem.

real
03-23-2007, 09:23 AM
Much of last year's "improvements" were due to the fact that they used quick throws to beat the pressure.


That's a guess....


Question: When a rookie, or back-up QB comes into the game what normally happens ?

Answer: They normally start him off with short routes, and hand-offs to get him into a rythm which doesn't neccesarily have anything to do with the O-line.

Example: Tom Brady plays behind a decent line, right ? He gets hurt, back-up comes in...They are not going to run the offense the same way. Not because the line can't block, but because of the inexperienced, timid, shaky situation at QB.


David had A LOT to do with those short passes.


Offenses are dumbed down because of QB's. Not O-lines. Even when we played the Raiders they were airing it out. We didn't even have the worst O-line in football last year, yet we got so used to 3 yard completions we got down right giddy when we completed a ten yarder. The O-line shares the blame, but they do not carry all the blame in this situation.

Everyone assumes that the offense was dumbed down because of our O-line. Please. If we had Peyton Manning we might be the Super Bowl champs, but our offense wouldn't be dumbed down. Even if we'd have had a middle of the road guy like Chad Pennington we wouldn't be throwing three yard hitches all game.

whiskeyrbl
03-23-2007, 09:30 AM
Forget the sacks, how many times in the process of the game did you watch and see the protection start to breakdown, while we have a reciever wide open and Carr either try to dump off to his safety valve for a 1or 2 yard gain, run out of bounds, throw it away or crumble and get sacked? TO MANY!!! At least now we have a QB who is not so shell-shocked he might actually find that open reciever for a 1st down or God forbid a TD. To many times as I sat in the stands I watched recievers waving thir arms WIDE OPEN only to see Carr Running with the ball down and throwing the ball to the person sitting next to me.... Im in Sec. 605 for Gods sake.

nunusguy
03-23-2007, 09:33 AM
I've seen and heard Schaub say 3 or 4 times in different interviews in the last 24 hours that Kubiak promised him, gave him his word that he will protect the
QB (Schaub). Therefor I'm gonna be very surprised if they don't draft
atleast 1 OLineman, and very likely draft 1 on the first day as a symbolic gester and show of support to Schaub. And its not like they don't need to
continue their efforts to upgrade their OLine.
In fact, this definitely increases the likelihood that the Texans use their #1 on
Levi Brown IMO, assuming he's on the Board and the Texans really like the
P-State OLT.

Texans Horror
03-23-2007, 09:43 AM
With Green in the backfield, Schaub already has more protection than Carr ever did. At the same time, I hope they give him some more protection, or else this will be second verse, same as the first...

real
03-23-2007, 10:22 AM
I've seen and heard Schaub say 3 or 4 times in different interviews in the last 24 hours that Kubiak promised him, gave him his word that he will protect the
QB (Schaub). Therefor I'm gonna be very surprised if they don't draft
atleast 1 OLineman, and very likely draft 1 on the first day as a symbolic gester and show of support to Schaub. And its not like they don't need to
continue their efforts to upgrade their OLine.
In fact, this definitely increases the likelihood that the Texans use their #1 on
Levi Brown IMO, assuming he's on the Board and the Texans really like the
P-State OLT.

With Green in the backfield, Schaub already has more protection than Carr ever did. At the same time, I hope they give him some more protection, or else this will be second verse, same as the first...


JMO, but I don't see the Texans picking many O-lineman....

Maybe a center and gaurd, but I just don't see it...Not with the signing of Black, and the signing of Salaam...To me that signals that either they REALLY don't think Spencer's coming back and they plan on using early picks on O-line(which they've shown no signs of), or They they believe he probably WILL come back and they signed those guys as just in case insurance that he doesn't...the latter sounds more plausable...


Think about it. They signed two back-up Quality, fill in kind of guys. Two guys who can start and not be totally awful. To me this signals that they think Spencer can get it done, but just in case he takes a little longer to get adjusted than expected we have these two quality depth guys who can fill in if need be.

They get rid of Carr, which means they recognize what many fans don't...Which is, it ain't all the O-lines fault....they sign two quality back-up tackles instead of going the starter route in free agency. Ding, Dong...wake up....They spent two first day picks on a QB...They didn't make big moves to pursue any O-Lineman....

They didn't try to make a big move to trade up for Joe Thomas...There were talks about trading up for Quinn..Never rumors of trading up for Joe Thomas....

I don't know how you can't see they don't think the O-line was "the problem"

Exithios
03-23-2007, 10:27 AM
JMO, but I don't see the Texans picking many O-lineman....

Maybe a center and gaurd, but I just don't see it...Not with the signing of Black, and the signing of Salaam...To me that signals that either they REALLY don't think Spencer's coming back, or They they believe he probably WILL come back and they signed those guys as just in case insurance that he doesn't.

Think about it. They signed two back-up Quality, fill in kind of guys. Two guys who can start and not be totally awful. To me this signals that they think Spencer can get it done, but just in case he takes a little longer to get adjusted than expected we have these two quality depth guys who can fill in if need be.

They get rid of Carr, which means they recognize what many fans don't...Which is, it ain't all the O-lines fault....they sign two quality back-up tackles instead of going the starter route in free agency. Ding, Dong...wake up....They spent two first day picks on a QB...They didn't make big moves to pursue any O-Lineman....

They didn't try to make a big move to trade up for Joe Thomas...There were talks about trading up for Quinn..Never rumors of trading up for Joe Thomas....

I don't know how you can't see they don't think the O-line was "the problem"

Well said xtru.

Depending on what the Texans do in the remainder of the offseason leading up to draft day, I see the Texans going defense in the first round and a #2 WR in the 3rd or 4th rounds. There is still a distinct possibility that a #2 could be had via trade or in FA.

Texan_Bill
03-23-2007, 10:32 AM
Mr Schaub:

http://www.billcadieux.com/htmls/product/excedrin.jpg

real
03-23-2007, 10:35 AM
Well said xtru.

Depending on what the Texans do in the remainder of the offseason leading up to draft day, I see the Texans going defense in the first round and a #2 WR in the 3rd or 4th rounds. There is still a distinct possibility that a #2 could be had via trade or in FA.

It's funny to me because they are doing the EXACT opposite of what they should be doing if they really felt the O-line was "the problem"...

Our O-line sucks because we can't run the ball....Well the orginization doesn't share your views because they just went out and signed a Ahman Green to a healthy contract.

Our O-line can't pass protect....Well they spend two second rounders on a QB, and publicly state that our former starter known as David Carr is about to be shipped out of town.

Smell the roses.

TexanFanInCC
03-23-2007, 10:35 AM
I just saw a freaky stat. In 2 career starts (those are the only games that really matter), Schaub was sacked 12, count them TWELVE times.

atlanta's o-line was never good. it looked good because they ran a spread option and vicks athleticism made them look like a good line.

real
03-23-2007, 10:42 AM
atlanta's o-line was never good. it looked good because they ran a spread option and vicks athleticism made them look like a good line.

Michael Vick's been one of THE most sacked QB's over the past 3 years.

So has David.

The difference is that Michael Still makes plays that helps his team win.

While David has spent most of his playing days trying not to screw up.

Texans Horror
03-23-2007, 11:03 AM
JMO, but I don't see the Texans picking many O-lineman....

Maybe a center and gaurd, but I just don't see it...Not with the signing of Black, and the signing of Salaam...To me that signals that either they REALLY don't think Spencer's coming back and they plan on using early picks on O-line(which they've shown no signs of), or They they believe he probably WILL come back and they signed those guys as just in case insurance that he doesn't...the latter sounds more plausable...


Think about it. They signed two back-up Quality, fill in kind of guys. Two guys who can start and not be totally awful. To me this signals that they think Spencer can get it done, but just in case he takes a little longer to get adjusted than expected we have these two quality depth guys who can fill in if need be.

They get rid of Carr, which means they recognize what many fans don't...Which is, it ain't all the O-lines fault....they sign two quality back-up tackles instead of going the starter route in free agency. Ding, Dong...wake up....They spent two first day picks on a QB...They didn't make big moves to pursue any O-Lineman....

They didn't try to make a big move to trade up for Joe Thomas...There were talks about trading up for Quinn..Never rumors of trading up for Joe Thomas....

I don't know how you can't see they don't think the O-line was "the problem"

You know I disagree with you on who's more to blame for those sacks, but I do agree that the Texans believe Carr was the main reason. That they are not going for offensive linemen is looking clearer to me, but again, I don't think Salaam and Black are capable fillers for Spencer. I don't think Spencer is all that, either, but that's beside the point.


It's funny to me because they are doing the EXACT opposite of what they should be doing if they really felt the O-line was "the problem"...

Our O-line sucks because we can't run the ball....Well the orginization doesn't share your views because they just went out and signed a Ahman Green to a healthy contract.

Our O-line can't pass protect....Well they spend two second rounders on a QB, and publicly state that our former starter known as David Carr is about to be shipped out of town.

Smell the roses.


Now, hang on there...the Texans just signed Dayne and Green, two runners who make holes happen. Bring Your Own Blocker, Green said is his credo. He will need it. We have two maulers more likely to push the center out of the way and ram the nosetackle than we have linemen with the ability to open the lane. Good thing they are going to rotate the running backs. So I'm not smelling roses yet, but I'm willing to concede that the organization is...

real
03-23-2007, 11:11 AM
You know I disagree with you on who's more to blame for those sacks, but I do agree that the Texans believe Carr was the main reason. That they are not going for offensive linemen is looking clearer to me, but again, I don't think Salaam and Black are capable fillers for Spencer. I don't think Spencer is all that, either, but that's beside the point.

I'm telling you right now....if Spencer comes back healthy he is going to be special...The guy is a beast....




Now, hang on there...the Texans just signed Dayne and Green, two runners who make holes happen. Bring Your Own Blocker, Green said is his credo. He will need it. We have two maulers more likely to push the center out of the way and ram the nosetackle than we have linemen with the ability to open the lane. Good thing they are going to rotate the running backs. So I'm not smelling roses yet, but I'm willing to concede that the organization is...


I'm saying smell the roses as to where the Texans mind-set is....A lot of people(not neccessarily you) keep up all this talk about the O-line this, and the O-line that...Levi Brown, Joe Staley...yada yada yada....

If they pick a tackle early I will be absolutely shocked...I just can't see that happening.

SESupergenius
03-23-2007, 12:10 PM
All of the gloves are off now. Coaching excuses, QB excuses, WR excuses, RB excuses. Since Kubiak said that protecting the QB is the highest priority, the O-line won't have excuses. As it should be, all the focus of a team rests on the O-line. Time for them to prove themselves.

Charter PSL Fan
03-23-2007, 12:16 PM
It wont be the same o-lines. A better gauge will be how Carr performs when he has a good pass protection o-line, when his receivers have time to get open and how his new team runs the ball and plays defense.

Vinny
03-23-2007, 12:17 PM
The most amazing thing to me is we can all see that our FO has gone WAY out of its way to replace Carr. They talked to Jake Plummer, Garcia, Trent Green and finally landed Schaub and not once have they tried to replace our linemen....so that SHOULD tell everyone that Carr was the biggest problem on this team...not the line. But yet everyone still crys about the line when in fact we gave the QB good protection last year down the stretch despite starting Salaam at LT and having no center of any worth.

To me, this team is starting to look like a contender with a real QB and good skill guys and a young talented line in place for the most part. We have 4 first day draft picks starting from Tackle to tackle other than our C.....I don't know what most of our fans are looking at...cause apparently I don't see the same things. All I know is that Pitts and Weary can't complete passes to open receivers.

real
03-23-2007, 12:17 PM
It wont be the same o-lines. A better gauge will be how Carr performs when he has a good pass protection o-line, when his receivers have time to get open and how his new team runs the ball and plays defense.

LOL...

I feel bad for the team that runs Carr out as a starter next year.

Charter PSL Fan
03-23-2007, 12:20 PM
LOL...

I feel bad for the team that runs Carr out as a starter next year.

Yeah, you will feel bad when they come in here and kick the Texans asses.

HOU-TEX
03-23-2007, 12:22 PM
Yeah, you will feel bad when they come in here and kick the Texans asses.

If they do, it won't be because of Carr.:)

Vinny
03-23-2007, 12:23 PM
Yeah, you will feel bad when they come in here and kick the Texans asses.
LOL, our fans can't even come to grips that he isn't that good....if he was a great QB like you think then we wouldn't be struggling to trade him. Teams would be lining up to scoop him since there is a scarcity of good QB's in the NFL.

real
03-23-2007, 12:27 PM
Yeah, you will feel bad when they come in here and kick the Texans asses.

Yeah, because that's Carr's specialty....kickin ass and taking names....



BWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!

give me a break...

hadaad
03-23-2007, 12:27 PM
I hope you guys are right and that Carr sacks himself. I know it has happened. I just don't know that he's more responsible than the o-linemen.

Like I said, I really hope you (and the front office) are right because if you're not right, the Schaub is in for a pummelin'.

HOU-TEX
03-23-2007, 12:34 PM
Yeah, because that's Carr's specialty....kickin ass and taking names....



BWWAAAAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!

give me a break...

Had to try out my new sig. Too funny!:dance2:

The Pencil Neck
03-23-2007, 02:29 PM
I hope you guys are right and that Carr sacks himself. I know it has happened. I just don't know that he's more responsible than the o-linemen.

Like I said, I really hope you (and the front office) are right because if you're not right, the Schaub is in for a pummelin'.

I probably shouldn't do this off the top of my pointy head but...

It's not like we gave up 60 sacks last year and our QB was a tackling dummy.

Think about how many sacks we gave up last year. IIRC, that was 43 sacks and we were sitting about 24th or 25th in sacks. And if I remember correctly, the league average was mid to low 30's; the Raiders gave up 70-something. Even if Carr was only responsible for 5-6 sacks (and frankly, I think the number was MUCH higher than that), then that puts our line's number of sacks into the high 30's, which is just a little below average*.

And I don't think you can say he used his "superior mobility" to dodge a lot of sacks to make the line's statistics look better.

* And that # of sacks is still a combination of line's blown blocks and RB's missing blitz pickups.

SESupergenius
03-23-2007, 04:45 PM
i don't know what games you were watching but that line was from from great. We've never had a dominant offensive lineman and they routinely get pushed over on 3rd and short, not to mention they can't hold a nice seal around the QB. Some people are just gloating and need to take a step back to reality.

hadaad
03-23-2007, 04:49 PM
I probably shouldn't do this off the top of my pointy head but...

It's not like we gave up 60 sacks last year and our QB was a tackling dummy.

Think about how many sacks we gave up last year. IIRC, that was 43 sacks and we were sitting about 24th or 25th in sacks. And if I remember correctly, the league average was mid to low 30's; the Raiders gave up 70-something. Even if Carr was only responsible for 5-6 sacks (and frankly, I think the number was MUCH higher than that), then that puts our line's number of sacks into the high 30's, which is just a little below average*.

And I don't think you can say he used his "superior mobility" to dodge a lot of sacks to make the line's statistics look better.

* And that # of sacks is still a combination of line's blown blocks and RB's missing blitz pickups.

I believe the gameplan was changed to minimize the amount of time that Carr had the ball. That led to the short passes, the higher completion percentage and less sacks. But it also led to a lot of 3-and-outs. I guess you could say that Carr getting rid of the ball so fast led to less sacks, so I guess you could say I believe that Carr limited the number of sacks, yes.

Mr teX
03-23-2007, 04:50 PM
That was kind-of answered for ME last year when Sage stepped in. To me it seemed the whole OL stepped up. It was slightly more evidence that the team didn't have a lot of respect for Carr. And when Sage came in it was as if the guys said "OK, lets get going now."

I sense the OL will want to prove something this next season. Like saying "it wasn't all us people."

It was never all them, but you're kidding yourself if you think that some of our offensive woes were in no way related to them.

Double Barrel
03-23-2007, 05:54 PM
i don't know what games you were watching but that line was from from great. We've never had a dominant offensive lineman and they routinely get pushed over on 3rd and short, not to mention they can't hold a nice seal around the QB. Some people are just gloating and need to take a step back to reality.

It's tough to hold a seal around your QB when he fails to take advantage of the pocket by stepping into it, and instead he gets happy feet dancing right into a defender.

I do not recall many instances of Carr stepping into the pocket, looking for his second or third read, and completing a pass right before he's hit.

I see other QBs do that all season long. Ours was broken in that regard.

The Pencil Neck
03-23-2007, 05:58 PM
I believe the gameplan was changed to minimize the amount of time that Carr had the ball. That led to the short passes, the higher completion percentage and less sacks. But it also led to a lot of 3-and-outs. I guess you could say that Carr getting rid of the ball so fast led to less sacks, so I guess you could say I believe that Carr limited the number of sacks, yes.

I think you're thinking about 2 years ago when they were drilling Carr to get the ball out as quickly as possible and he ended up with 60 sacks.

If you're talking about last year, then we were watching different games. Sure Carr threw a lot of short passes. Sure, some of those short passes were actually called short passes but a lot of them were David choosing the dump off instead of going to recievers further down the field. Not all our passes were 3-step drops and short passes.

But let's restrict the discussion to where David sacked himself when he was taking 3 step drops. This is something that Kubiak specifically mentioned. On a 3 step drop, you have to throw when your back foot hits. You step, read. Step, read, and then based on your two reads, you throw when your back foot hits. In practice, Kubiak said David was making the steps & reads correctly and throwing the ball down the field but in games, he wasn't. Sometimes, he was step, step, dump. But when he step, step, double-clutch, look around, sack... that was a sack that was on him. That's an example of sacking yourself on a 3 step drop. The line isn't going to keep people away from you much longer past the time of that third step. That was causing sacks AND costing us yardage when he didn't throw the ball to the open receiver.

You also have to be consistent with how big your steps are. David wasn't. The line can't see where you are so you have to go back to the same place every time. David didn't.

And these problems got worse and worse as the season went on.

So basically, I don't agree with you that Carr minimized the number of times he got sacked.

Runner
03-23-2007, 09:15 PM
The most amazing thing to me is we can all see that our FO has gone WAY out of its way to replace Carr. They talked to Jake Plummer, Garcia, Trent Green and finally landed Schaub and not once have they tried to replace our linemen....so that SHOULD tell everyone that Carr was the biggest problem on this team...not the line. But yet everyone still crys about the line when in fact we gave the QB good protection last year down the stretch despite starting Salaam at LT and having no center of any worth.


I think the line historically shares the blame on the sacks, and I don't say that to minimize Carr's contributions. For instance Carr definitely dropped too far back on his seven step drops. This put the tackles at an extreme disadvantage because they didn't know where he was at, so when they thought they were pushing the defender well behind Carr they could still get a hand on him. I think the Texans have done what they could this year to improve the line within the limitations of salary cap and player availability. I think they would like to have done better - the line isn't fixed completely yet.

After watching the board lambast Mckinney most of his career here, talk bad about Wade in 2005, call Wand a bust in 2004, and virtually ignore Brown when he was here, it rasies an interesting question. Were these guys good players who got a raw deal as the team covered for Carr?

It's sad how the front office got constant blame for not fixing the tackles. It is ironic that with a better quarterback Wade and Wand may have been the bookends we are still searching for. After all, they were our tackles during the Texans best offensive season, which is coincidentally the season of their best record.

Food for thought.

Wolf
03-23-2007, 09:20 PM
time will tell I don't know

lots of NFL players move from team to team and are just who they are. yet you get some that finally find a system that fits their style and it is rare(Priest homes-baltimore than KC was awesome,Rich Gannon (everywhere-then thrived in Raiders system for a couple of years)

I wish David luck against everyone except us

WillyP
03-24-2007, 12:51 AM
I think you're thinking about 2 years ago when they were drilling Carr to get the ball out as quickly as possible and he ended up with 60 sacks.

If you're talking about last year, then we were watching different games. Sure Carr threw a lot of short passes. Sure, some of those short passes were actually called short passes but a lot of them were David choosing the dump off instead of going to recievers further down the field. Not all our passes were 3-step drops and short passes.

But let's restrict the discussion to where David sacked himself when he was taking 3 step drops. This is something that Kubiak specifically mentioned. On a 3 step drop, you have to throw when your back foot hits. You step, read. Step, read, and then based on your two reads, you throw when your back foot hits. In practice, Kubiak said David was making the steps & reads correctly and throwing the ball down the field but in games, he wasn't. Sometimes, he was step, step, dump. But when he step, step, double-clutch, look around, sack... that was a sack that was on him. That's an example of sacking yourself on a 3 step drop. The line isn't going to keep people away from you much longer past the time of that third step. That was causing sacks AND costing us yardage when he didn't throw the ball to the open receiver.

You also have to be consistent with how big your steps are. David wasn't. The line can't see where you are so you have to go back to the same place every time. David didn't.

And these problems got worse and worse as the season went on.

So basically, I don't agree with you that Carr minimized the number of times he got sacked.

Now this is the kind of quality analysis I'd like just once to hear from the dolts on ESPN. I am damn sick and tired of hearing these a-holes slag this franchise for its offensive line without offering any accurate context whatsoever. Did ya'll know that we just cut, like, a really good quarterback who never had a chance to succeed because the front office never recognized the need for a good offensive line? Hmm, me neither.

hadaad
03-24-2007, 01:46 AM
I think you're thinking about 2 years ago when they were drilling Carr to get the ball out as quickly as possible and he ended up with 60 sacks.

If you're talking about last year, then we were watching different games. Sure Carr threw a lot of short passes. Sure, some of those short passes were actually called short passes but a lot of them were David choosing the dump off instead of going to recievers further down the field. Not all our passes were 3-step drops and short passes.

But let's restrict the discussion to where David sacked himself when he was taking 3 step drops. This is something that Kubiak specifically mentioned. On a 3 step drop, you have to throw when your back foot hits. You step, read. Step, read, and then based on your two reads, you throw when your back foot hits. In practice, Kubiak said David was making the steps & reads correctly and throwing the ball down the field but in games, he wasn't. Sometimes, he was step, step, dump. But when he step, step, double-clutch, look around, sack... that was a sack that was on him. That's an example of sacking yourself on a 3 step drop. The line isn't going to keep people away from you much longer past the time of that third step. That was causing sacks AND costing us yardage when he didn't throw the ball to the open receiver.

You also have to be consistent with how big your steps are. David wasn't. The line can't see where you are so you have to go back to the same place every time. David didn't.

And these problems got worse and worse as the season went on.

So basically, I don't agree with you that Carr minimized the number of times he got sacked.

Nope. I read about the buzzer and that just made me want to cry. Talk about a stupid solution to a problem that never properly got fixed. I was basing this on the games I listened to this year and the complaints I read on this board and around the internet that Carr was looking for his safety valve after his first read didn't pan out. I assumed this was his way of saying "I'm not getting sacked".

I did read that about the third step, though. I guess there's a difference knowing that you're not going to get hit with the red jersey on and fearing that a hit is inevitable in live-action.

I don't think that the line is entirely to blame for this past season but I still think they have a way to go before they are even "pretty good". They've definitely come past "God-awful" and I think they're ready to be labeled "okay" but I think that if Spencer comes back healthy and they do something about the centre, they'll get an upgrade to "pretty good" but if Spencer's not ready to go and Black or Salaam is what they have to start the season, I'm going to cry. Highway 65 and The Turnstile. Those are not nicknames you want associated with offensive linemen.

NJTexanFan
03-24-2007, 01:57 AM
personally i think the O-Line will block better for a new qb of course with a few changes as i recall the game when Carr was benched and Rosenfels came in the game it pissed me off how much better they O-line had blocked for me making Rosenfels look like a legit quarterback in the nfl

Texans Horror
03-26-2007, 02:14 PM
I think the line historically shares the blame on the sacks, and I don't say that to minimize Carr's contributions. For instance Carr definitely dropped too far back on his seven step drops. This put the tackles at an extreme disadvantage because they didn't know where he was at, so when they thought they were pushing the defender well behind Carr they could still get a hand on him. I think the Texans have done what they could this year to improve the line within the limitations of salary cap and player availability. I think they would like to have done better - the line isn't fixed completely yet.

After watching the board lambast Mckinney most of his career here, talk bad about Wade in 2005, call Wand a bust in 2004, and virtually ignore Brown when he was here, it rasies an interesting question. Were these guys good players who got a raw deal as the team covered for Carr?

It's sad how the front office got constant blame for not fixing the tackles. It is ironic that with a better quarterback Wade and Wand may have been the bookends we are still searching for. After all, they were our tackles during the Texans best offensive season, which is coincidentally the season of their best record.

Food for thought.

So along these lines, if the quarterback was the problem, then picking Spencer and Winston was a waste. We didn't need them. With those picks, the Texans could have drafted:

Abdul Hodge, LB
Claude Wroten, DT
Ashton Youboty, CB
Leonard Pope, TE - I remember a lot of people were real high on this guy
Brian Calhoun, RB - Another one of these would have been nice, too

Wow. I don't know much about the rookie years of these guys, but drafting a defensive tackle to take over for TJ, adding that second CB, or upgrading at TE and RB? We could have had any two of these and still have a capable line. Instead, the left tackle is a giant hole and the line is still in disarray.

real
03-26-2007, 02:20 PM
So along these lines, if the quarterback was the problem, then picking Spencer and Winston was a waste. We didn't need them. With those picks, the Texans could have drafted:

Abdul Hodge, LB
Claude Wroten, DT
Ashton Youboty, CB
Leonard Pope, TE - I remember a lot of people were real high on this guy
Brian Calhoun, RB - Another one of these would have been nice, too

Wow. I don't know much about the rookie years of these guys, but drafting a defensive tackle to take over for TJ, adding that second CB, or upgrading at TE and RB? We could have had any two of these and still have a capable line. Instead, the left tackle is a giant hole and the line is still in disarray.

Bad logic...

Why does it have to be one or the other ?

How come we couldn't have used an upgrade at OT AND at QB ?


They gave David 5 yrs to get it together....

We've changed Offensive lineman every single year...We've never had the same 5 start from one year to the next....

Schaub_to AJ_YES!
03-26-2007, 03:00 PM
That is not correct. Schaub has been sacked 12 times in his career, but 6 times in his 2 starts (3 sacks in each game). It should be noted that the Falcons have been among the league leaders (or losers) in sacks allowed over the course of Schaub's career in ATL.

I find it hilarious that if Schaub is sacked a lot, it must be his fault but if the teflon don (carr) is sacked, it's the OL's fault.

Not saying you are implying that, becasue you aren't. I'm just saying it in general and using your quote to emphasize my point.

Schaub_to AJ_YES!
03-26-2007, 03:01 PM
It's tough to hold a seal around your QB when he fails to take advantage of the pocket by stepping into it, and instead he gets happy feet dancing right into a defender.

I do not recall many instances of Carr stepping into the pocket, looking for his second or third read, and completing a pass right before he's hit.

I see other QBs do that all season long. Ours was broken in that regard.


He had no idea what so ever how to do that. None.

TwinSisters
03-26-2007, 06:25 PM
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20061203_HOU@OAK

On the Highlight reel at around 0:58-

7-step drop, Raiders stunt

Where is the problem on this play?

Runner
03-26-2007, 06:36 PM
We've changed Offensive lineman every single year...We've never had the same 5 start from one year to the next....

That's the point - we've wasted the ones we've had, so we are always starting over. No player development, just line up the next scapegoat for the year. Had we stood pat after 2004 maybe we would have a good line by now that has played together for three years.

The Pencil Neck
03-26-2007, 07:32 PM
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20061203_HOU@OAK

On the Highlight reel at around 0:58-

7-step drop, Raiders stunt

Where is the problem on this play?


Other guys know more about the X's and O's than I do but I'd say the problem there is with the RB not reading the blitz.

BattleRedToro
03-26-2007, 08:33 PM
If we had Peyton Manning we might be the Super Bowl champs, but our offense wouldn't be dumbed down. Even if we'd have had a middle of the road guy like Chad Pennington we wouldn't be throwing three yard hitches all game.

That is truly hilarious in it's stupidity. :tinfoil:

BattleRedToro
03-26-2007, 08:35 PM
That's the point - we've wasted the ones we've had, so we are always starting over. No player development, just line up the next scapegoat for the year. Had we stood pat after 2004 maybe we would have a good line by now that has played together for three years.

They've been replaced because they suck. Can't you understand that?

Texans Horror
03-27-2007, 08:35 AM
That's the point - we've wasted the ones we've had, so we are always starting over. No player development, just line up the next scapegoat for the year. Had we stood pat after 2004 maybe we would have a good line by now that has played together for three years.

If the belief is that the problem was the quarterback (that Schaub will be able to make the right moves that Carr never could), then this is a valid point to that arguement. Either the new regime wasted picks by throwing them at an o-line that did not need the development, or they are throwing them away now. Either way its blown picks and a bad move.

thunderkyss
03-27-2007, 09:15 AM
The most amazing thing to me is we can all see that our FO has gone WAY out of its way to replace Carr. They talked to Jake Plummer, Garcia, Trent Green and finally landed Schaub and not once have they tried to replace our linemen....so that SHOULD tell everyone that Carr was the biggest problem on this team...not the line. But yet everyone still crys about the line when in fact we gave the QB good protection last year down the stretch despite starting Salaam at LT and having no center of any worth.

To me, this team is starting to look like a contender with a real QB and good skill guys and a young talented line in place for the most part. We have 4 first day draft picks starting from Tackle to tackle other than our C.....I don't know what most of our fans are looking at...cause apparently I don't see the same things. All I know is that Pitts and Weary can't complete passes to open receivers.

Simple. Concise. To the Point. Lots of info.... why are people still talking about this??

thunderkyss
03-27-2007, 09:36 AM
But when he step, step, double-clutch, look around, sack... that was a sack that was on him. That's an example of sacking yourself on a 3 step drop. The line isn't going to keep people away from you much longer past the time of that third step. That was causing sacks AND costing us yardage when he didn't throw the ball to the open receiver.


It's much easier than that. Just look at the times on a 3 step drop, where he definitely cocked the ball to throw it, then pulled it down, and took a sack. I counted 10 in the first 6 games, then stopped counting.

TwinSisters
03-27-2007, 12:40 PM
Other guys know more about the X's and O's than I do but I'd say the problem there is with the RB not reading the blitz.

this is technically not really a blitz ( by most definitions ). it's a 4 man rush with a strong end stunt to the inside.

http://www.lesspub.com/cgi-bin/site.pl?332&ceNews_newsID=732

McKinney engages the tackle and you can see his head down bulldogging while opening up the center lane for the stunting end. Typically you want the lineman to be able to handle something like this, because you already have a 5 - 4 advantage in blockers. If the RB is going to be picking up stunts, that's going to make it 6 - 4, while freeing up a LB to cover underneath zones and taking away the dump off to a RB.

This was a 3 and 6 play. You don't want your last option to be throwing it away in this particular situation.

On the next highlight 1:33 you see Winston getting beat again. Harder to really say what was at fault here, but you see the same stunt this time picked up by Weary.

that was a horrible game. 9 punts, 5 fumbles, 7 kicks of which 4 were missed, 2 interceptions, and three TDs ( one fumble return ).

That line still needs a lot of help. When you see you guys on the ground and their backs away from the QB, that's a problem.

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2007, 12:47 PM
this is technically not really a blitz ( by most definitions ). it's a 4 man rush with a strong end stunt to the inside.


Yeah, that's what I get for opening my mouth. :)

I didn't read the alignment right. For some reason, I thought 56 was coming from an upright position on the outside and I thought that 52 was coming up the middle but he was just reading the RB.

Thanks for the link.

threetoedpete
03-27-2007, 01:52 PM
I hope you guys are correct. As the other poster mentioned if I'm wrong I'll come in here and man up. They're down to six picks with critical needs at four positions. Just how they'll do that hat trick is going to be fun to watch. The chicken or the egg arguement...the chicken has left the building. The only question in my mind now will this group squat and make an egg. Or rise up and become a top ten o-line ?

If they don't pick Levi Brown the fact of the matter is there is no one who is left on the board for my money who can come in and start. I.E. beat Salaam or Black out of camp for starting OLT. Not Staley, Hot Harris not any of the other second teir guys. Mayock of NFLnetwork is doing his top twenty five now and has Kalil and Levi Brown in that range, 25-20. But because he is an OLT canidate...you can prety much bet Levi will go much higher. Just like every year the second teired CBs go much higher than expected. All you have to do is make a list of teams with critical needs on the o-line and see that there's a supply and demand problem with that position. The shortage is acute.

With no second round pick that makes Kalil prety much out of the pickture. Could be xt and Vinny, inspite of your keen arguments to the contrary, that Levi Brown is the target. They filled the void at QB and now they are going to hit the second biggest need on the offense , OLT, in the draft at a greater value. Give Leron and All Day a chance to get off the board without them taking another PR hit.


Is there anyone in here who will not conceed that we missed on the center last year ? That also, Hodgen is no more than a stop gap back up...and will never be more than that ? Can we agree on that one. Can we also agree....that Pitts even though he is the best lineman of the group...and I'll also post "standing"...just to avoid a Spencer's "potential" arguements with xt, isn't an all pro and probably never will be with Fanaca and Hutchinson still playing. Can i get every one to agree, although a great prospect....Erick Winston improved...was a very devestating run blocker....when he didn't over reach and miss the guy... is still a work in progress ? He is no where ready on his pass protection though from what I saw. Can we agree on that one ? Fred Weary is what he is...a right gaurd. I do not expect him to be an all world guy. Now the sum of these parts may be better with another year under their belt. I'll give you that one. The fact is...you've got a slower QB, behind an over achiever at LG, a bust(s) at center, a work in progress at RT and a plodder at right gaurd. And on top of that floatsome, the potentailly best OT...has got a little blood flow problem to the cartledge in his inured leg...maybe. Did I leave anything out ? Won't have to wait very long to see the pudding with this group. Just watch the splits this summer. The distance of how far apart the hole between their feet is. If they're wide...we're ok, or at least the coaches think we're ok. If they are narrow...we're in trouble. We're not ZBS anymore dorthy.


Gotta lot of chips now on this line and on Spencer's prognosis. About seventy million dollars worth. Now are you guys really posting that you are comfortable with this group ? That you are ready to go to war with this group of lineman ? That cohesion and not the gereral tallent, is the only thing that is lacking and has held them back ? I didn't ommit Black....The only thing Jordan can hope to prove this season is that he is a preannual back up. Like I posted I sure hope you're correct in your analysis. From my tree is looks to be a disater in the making. "Stand pat and let's go down together...DC's not here any more" Oh the joy !! Expectations run a'muck. lol. Makes a nice Errol Flynn movie from the forties...NFL in the twenty first century..I dunno. They may well hit someone in the second day. It's happened befor.

I'll take my crow with a little strawberrys and cream please. :dance2:

thunderkyss
03-27-2007, 01:56 PM
If they don't pick Levi Brown the fact of the matter is there is no one who is left on the board for my money who can come in and start. I.E. beat Salaam or Black out of camp for starting OLT.

Personally, I don't see Black as an option at LT. It's going to be Spencer, Winston, or Salaam I think, in that order. Black will take the RT position if anything.

I base this on the KC vs Indy play-off game I've got on DVD, and the Texans vs KC game I also recorded. & the fact that he was the third option at LT for the Cheifs, behind Kyle Turley, and allowed to leave the team.

SESupergenius
03-27-2007, 02:52 PM
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20061203_HOU@OAK

On the Highlight reel at around 0:58-

7-step drop, Raiders stunt

Where is the problem on this play?

That is easily McKinneys fault as he didn't protect his zone and got pushed back deep into Carr's pocket. There absolutely was no time to find the outlet pass....or any pass for that matter.

SESupergenius
03-27-2007, 02:54 PM
this is technically not really a blitz ( by most definitions ). it's a 4 man rush with a strong end stunt to the inside.

http://www.lesspub.com/cgi-bin/site.pl?332&ceNews_newsID=732

McKinney engages the tackle and you can see his head down bulldogging while opening up the center lane for the stunting end. Typically you want the lineman to be able to handle something like this, because you already have a 5 - 4 advantage in blockers. If the RB is going to be picking up stunts, that's going to make it 6 - 4, while freeing up a LB to cover underneath zones and taking away the dump off to a RB.

This was a 3 and 6 play. You don't want your last option to be throwing it away in this particular situation.

On the next highlight 1:33 you see Winston getting beat again. Harder to really say what was at fault here, but you see the same stunt this time picked up by Weary.

that was a horrible game. 9 punts, 5 fumbles, 7 kicks of which 4 were missed, 2 interceptions, and three TDs ( one fumble return ).

That line still needs a lot of help. When you see you guys on the ground and their backs away from the QB, that's a problem.


But still it's David Carr's fault......we will see this year. I hope Sage can handle the QB job for a while because I don't see Schaub taking as many hits as Carr did.

Coonass Texan
03-27-2007, 03:01 PM
With us getting a new QB, who can stand tall in the pocket, and a better running game, our o-line will surprise many people. All I hear from so called national sports gurus is that our o-line was horrible and even Peyton Manning couldn't play behind that line. That's bull crap, I watched almost every game since there existence, and granted the line has been a big issue, but those "experts" only go by sack numbers and never watch the games. Anyway I believe Schaub will bring us something we never had before, a legitimate steady QB. Let the good times roll!

Texans Horror
03-27-2007, 03:15 PM
With us getting a new QB, who can stand tall in the pocket, and a better running game, our o-line will surprise many people. All I hear from so called national sports gurus is that our o-line was horrible and even Peyton Manning couldn't play behind that line. That's bull crap, I watched almost every game since there existence, and granted the line has been a big issue, but those "experts" only go by sack numbers and never watch the games. Anyway I believe Schaub will bring us something we never had before, a legitimate steady QB. Let the good times roll!

So you agree then that it was a mistake to draft Spencer and Winston? They are starting to sound like wasted picks since the o-line was apparently pretty top-notch before we drafted them. The Texans would have been fine with Wand and Weigert (both lambasted by the boards) since the problem was David Carr, not the tackles. I wonder how well the Texans would have done if last year they had just stayed with:

Wand - Pitts - McKinney - Weary - Weigert

Coonass Texan
03-27-2007, 03:27 PM
So you agree then that it was a mistake to draft Spencer and Winston? They are starting to sound like wasted picks since the o-line was apparently pretty top-notch before we drafted them. The Texans would have been fine with Wand and Weigert (both lambasted by the boards) since the problem was David Carr, not the tackles. I wonder how well the Texans would have done if last year they had just stayed with:

Wand - Pitts - McKinney - Weary - Weigert
Nope I think Winston and Spencer were excellent picks and very well needed. I'm not saying all is on Carr and I believe the O-line has been an issue but not to the extent that the national media sees it. Having a QB that could stay calm and step into the pocket and see the field will be the difference. Carr has never been able to do that. O-lines constantly need to be upgraded and we haven't yet found that dominant lineman we can all attribute our success to. Still in all they have provided enough blocking for a good QB to make something happen.

real
03-27-2007, 03:46 PM
Could be xt and Vinny, inspite of your keen arguments to the contrary, that Levi Brown is the target.

If Levi Brown IS the target, so be it. I think they could make a wiser choice, but we'll just have to wait and see.

Personally i'd rather roll with what we ave now, and if we're still talking about LT next year it'd almost be easy to grab one better than Levi considering how many good prospects will be coming out that play that position.

I just don't believe that it's a major need or concern for us at this point. I think finding another reciever is more important actually.

I think putting together a good defense is more of an issue at this point...

Who are our secondary players' back-ups ? Wouldn't it be scary if Dunta (football gods forbid) got hurt ? What if Dunta and Glen Earl both get hurt ?


We have quality depth for just about every position on the O-line, and I'm pretty sure we will add more either with late round picks or undrafted FA's....

I just don't see that as one of our pressing issues at the moment...

And I really can't imagine how Levi is going to make our line better, especially not as a rookie...Heck I think D'brick is much better than him, but even he allowed 10 sacks as a rookie.....I just don't see a swift, nimble and strong athlete when I see Brown play...

It's just my personal opinion, and the Texans may very well be high on him...But for the life of me I can't see why they would be...Any other draft this guy is late first, early second round talent, but we have people wanting him at 10...That'd be a mistake IMO...

thunderkyss
03-27-2007, 03:55 PM
So you agree then that it was a mistake to draft Spencer and Winston? They are starting to sound like wasted picks since the o-line was apparently pretty top-notch before we drafted them. The Texans would have been fine with Wand and Weigert (both lambasted by the boards) since the problem was David Carr, not the tackles. I wonder how well the Texans would have done if last year they had just stayed with:

Wand - Pitts - McKinney - Weary - Weigert

I might still have picked up Spencer. Weigart didn't have much left in him anyway, and after watching Hogdon this year, I'd like to get a center this year. I can see McKinney as the center this year & next, but then it's too late to find your center.

I still would have signed Salaam for '06, & '07...... I wouldn't have wasted my time with Bedell, I'd have kept Milford Brown, actually, Brown would've started at Right Guard, Weary would've been my back-up, possible Center, & I wouldn't have McKinney on the team.

TwinSisters
03-27-2007, 09:59 PM
But still it's David Carr's fault......we will see this year. I hope Sage can handle the QB job for a while because I don't see Schaub taking as many hits as Carr did.

It's hard to say without the coverage seen. But for this type of forum, a highlight reel is about the only thing that can be used.

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20061029_HOU@TEN

Here's the clip that is talking about throwing into a 4 man coverage. It also features the 7 step that is too deep around 1:05. Why this is not seen is in practice during the week is a mystery to me at the moment.

3 and 13 with no time left. Normal 4 man rush.

Maybe. It's hard to tell, but it looks like he takes a little studder step right towards the end of his drop.

The result is another TD returned on the fumble. With only a few seconds left to go in the half, what was 7-3 is now 14-3. Final score 28-22. Those points made a huge difference.

bad
03-27-2007, 10:39 PM
...1 player on the line started every game for us last year...
That's just horrible. Very hard to build a cohesive unit when the same five guys aren't playing alongside each other with any regularity.

This is not to defend Carr, just an observation. He stunk for five years but that doesn't change the fact that after five years we still lack a solid, stable offensive line. Some of it has just been bad luck, starting with the mighty yet far too damaged Tony Boselli and continuing through the wounded talent that is Charles Spencer.

Having said that, I don't think Levi Brown is a good value at #10. I'd rather we traded down (again) and filled the weakest link of our o-line with Ryan Kalil. Along with Flanagan we'd be set at center. Bye bye McKinney, thanks for The Skinny.

If we stay at #10, with all our needs, I say we take the BPA. If Peterson is there (which is a nice dream) we sprint to the podium. If not, a defensive lineman or safety.

Which means we'll probably draft a wide receiver or linebacker. The Texans FO has had me as confused as Matt Stevens attempting an open-field tackle. Thank goodness C&C are someone else's tormentors now.

I hate losing that second round pick - it worked out so well last year - and I hope we don't regret it.

We can't let Schaub take the pounding Carr did, and I feel positive that we won't.

Why?

Because I'm a glass-is-all-the-way-full kinda guy and I think Ahman Green will be a huge help in pass protection. Also, Carr's sack record will be tough to beat. Not that we'll be trying.

Plus I think Schaub will do a better job of not rushing headlong into sacks than Carr did. I sure hope so, because ABC is probably knocked into Celebrity Jeopardy Contestant land after the first 200 or so pastings.

I'll give David Carr, NFL Quarterback wise, credit for this, and this only...what a tough SOB. I miss him not but wish him well.

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2007, 11:35 PM
The only question in my mind now will this group squat and make an egg. Or rise up and become a top ten o-line ?


I think we have a difference of opinion on what it takes to be successful as a team. You don't have to have a top 10 o-line to be a winning team although it helps. I think the best we could hope for with our line is just getting to the playoffs at this point.

I was an ABC because I felt his play was very poor irrespective of the line play. We could have had the best line in the league and it still would have looked bad with him at QB. That's my belief.

I have stated several times that I think that our o-line needs to be improved. I believe that removing Carr from the equation will make our line look a little better than it did with Carr but I still believe that our o-line is below average and needs work. I don't think it's in the bottom 8 lines in the league.

I think Kubiak knows what he needs on the line and unlike the last regime, I think he thinks it's important to get the right guys up there. I expect us to get a new center and from Kubiak's statements at the end of the year about not trusting guys to be able to heal and come back from injuries, I think he's going to play this like Spencer is totally out of the equation. And personally, only having Black, Salaam, and Winston as my tackles makes me feel queasy. So I think we're going to go for an LT and if Spencer is able to make it back, so much the better.

I think the center is another position we really need to improve. I don't know if our FO is through making deals. I don't think they are and I'm hoping we end up getting Kalil somehow. I have no idea how they'll pull that off but I can hope. If not Kalil, then hopefully they have their eyes on one of the other centers in the draft and they can make some magic, but I don't know enough about the other centers to have any idea who would be a good fit for our line.

I would not be surprised or upset if we took Levi. I'm just afraid he's not going to make it to 10.

The Pencil Neck
03-27-2007, 11:44 PM
But still it's David Carr's fault......we will see this year. I hope Sage can handle the QB job for a while because I don't see Schaub taking as many hits as Carr did.

Why is everything always either/or? This is an example of the line breaking down. That's not David's fault. I don't believe anyone said that every sack was David's fault. We had 43 sacks last year. Some of those were David's fault, some were the line's, and some were the running backs'. There were several teams that gave up as many or more sacks than we did and were more productive offensively: Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Minnesota. And except for Cleveland, those teams weren't going through QB's like a MASH unit or anything.

thunderkyss
03-28-2007, 12:19 AM
Why is everything always either/or? This is an example of the line breaking down. That's not David's fault. I don't believe anyone said that every sack was David's fault. We had 43 sacks last year. Some of those were David's fault, some were the line's, and some were the running backs'. There were several teams that gave up as many or more sacks than we did and were more productive offensively: Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Minnesota. And except for Cleveland, those teams weren't going through QB's like a MASH unit or anything.

Cleveland pretty much stuck with Frye until he got hurt. I think he's going to be a fine QB.

But Here's (http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/AFC/OFF-PASSING/2006/regular?sort_col_1=8&_1:col_1=11) the link to just the AFC passing offense, ranked top to bottom by who gave up the most sacks. Houston is 5th on the list, meaning 4 teams in the AFC gave up more sacks than we did, but we produced the least amount of touchdown passes of the group, next to Oakland. Meaning, our passing game put up less points than 3 of the 4 most sacked teams in the AFC.

In the AFC, our passing game produced less touchdowns than all the other teams, other than Oakland, and Tennessee. Oakland..... well they've got problems for sure, but Tennessee started a rookie QB for 11 games of the season.

in the entire AFC, we threw for less yards than all the teams, excluding Oakland, Tennessee, and Buffalo...

So in the AFC, even though Clevland & Pittsburgh gave up more sacks than we did, their offenses still produced more yards &TDs than ours.

& I wouldn't call those guys Elite QBs. I'd say they are a little better than avg

TwinSisters
03-28-2007, 01:37 AM
krikey was Oakland miserable. 7 TDs in 16 games. I wonder if that is a record?

Guess not.. Dilfer had 4 in a 5 TD season. Damn.. even Bucky Richardson was good for about a TD a game.

SESupergenius
03-28-2007, 01:24 PM
Why is everything always either/or? This is an example of the line breaking down. That's not David's fault. I don't believe anyone said that every sack was David's fault. We had 43 sacks last year. Some of those were David's fault, some were the line's, and some were the running backs'. There were several teams that gave up as many or more sacks than we did and were more productive offensively: Detroit, Cleveland, St. Louis, Seattle, Pittsburgh, Buffalo, and Minnesota. And except for Cleveland, those teams weren't going through QB's like a MASH unit or anything.

I completely agree, but somehow everything has been put on Carr's shoulders for the blame and manificantly Schaub is supposed to come in here and be the Wonder Boy. Unless we fix the passing game, that is not going to happen. The signing of Green was a huge step because he will probably be the best pass blocking running back we've ever had. Now we need to just fix the O-line, get them healthy and upgrade. The focus is all on the o-line as they have run out of excuses and will need to protect our QB.

The Pencil Neck
03-28-2007, 01:45 PM
I completely agree, but somehow everything has been put on Carr's shoulders for the blame and manificantly Schaub is supposed to come in here and be the Wonder Boy. Unless we fix the passing game, that is not going to happen. The signing of Green was a huge step because he will probably be the best pass blocking running back we've ever had. Now we need to just fix the O-line, get them healthy and upgrade. The focus is all on the o-line as they have run out of excuses and will need to protect our QB.

I think we agree that the o-line needs improvement. But I see that fixing as more of tweaking than a wholesale overhaul that might take a few years to get right. Our o-line is not the worst o-line in the league. It's not the sieve that a lot of people are making it out to be. Some people are saying that Schaub is going to get sacked 60-70 times and get killed because our line is as bad as it was in 2002 and 2005 and Schaub isn't as mobile as Carr. But Carr was never that good at using his mobility to evade sacks and our o-line is not THAT bad.

I believe that Carr's performance is the biggest factor in why our passing game wasn't productive and that Schaub will probably significantly improve that. I believe that behind the same line as Carr, Schaub performs better. AND, I believe that we're going to take steps to improve the line this year anyway.

I know we disagree on the QB parts of that.

thunderkyss
03-28-2007, 02:37 PM
I completely agree, but somehow everything has been put on Carr's shoulders for the blame and manificantly Schaub is supposed to come in here and be the Wonder Boy. Unless we fix the passing game, that is not going to happen. The signing of Green was a huge step because he will probably be the best pass blocking running back we've ever had. Now we need to just fix the O-line, get them healthy and upgrade. The focus is all on the o-line as they have run out of excuses and will need to protect our QB.

It's silly to think that we're out of excuses, and will have to start looking at the Offensive line. We've been looking at the offensive line since Day 1, when Bosselli couldn't play.

Every year, we've drafted linemen(except 2004). Most of them on the first day. I understand none of them were 1st round picks, but there are just some positions that you can find good players in other rounds. OL happens to be one of them, just like RB, LB, TE & Safety. ARe there some prospects that should be considered 1st round picks... sure there are, but that doesn't mean you have to have a 1st round LT to be competitive in the NFL.

SESupergenius
03-28-2007, 02:53 PM
I think we agree that the o-line needs improvement. But I see that fixing as more of tweaking than a wholesale overhaul that might take a few years to get right. Our o-line is not the worst o-line in the league. It's not the sieve that a lot of people are making it out to be. Some people are saying that Schaub is going to get sacked 60-70 times and get killed because our line is as bad as it was in 2002 and 2005 and Schaub isn't as mobile as Carr. But Carr was never that good at using his mobility to evade sacks and our o-line is not THAT bad.

I believe that Carr's performance is the biggest factor in why our passing game wasn't productive and that Schaub will probably significantly improve that. I believe that behind the same line as Carr, Schaub performs better. AND, I believe that we're going to take steps to improve the line this year anyway.

I know we disagree on the QB parts of that.
We are not too far off in agreement. I know that Carr was part of the problem, I expected that given that it was his 1st season under a new offense. I don't expect this out of Schuab as he has been in a similar system for 5 or more years now. He should be a factor in the demise of the passing game. When I mean "fix" the offensive line I mean to have players that can play together and be a unit. Get players that are healthy, that can stand a full season and can be movers on the line. We don't blow up many teams on 3rd and short. McKinney is a liability. Pitts can't bull people over too often. Spencer did pretty good, but he's a huge question mark after his injury. Winston is still growing. Saalam is actually pretty decent. There are again just way too many issues with the line for the 5th consecutive year.

The Pencil Neck
03-28-2007, 03:40 PM
We are not too far off in agreement. I know that Carr was part of the problem, I expected that given that it was his 1st season under a new offense. I don't expect this out of Schuab as he has been in a similar system for 5 or more years now. He should be a factor in the demise of the passing game. When I mean "fix" the offensive line I mean to have players that can play together and be a unit. Get players that are healthy, that can stand a full season and can be movers on the line. We don't blow up many teams on 3rd and short. McKinney is a liability. Pitts can't bull people over too often. Spencer did pretty good, but he's a huge question mark after his injury. Winston is still growing. Saalam is actually pretty decent. There are again just way too many issues with the line for the 5th consecutive year.

Yeah, I'm expecting a lot from Schaub out of the gate. He's got experience with this sort of offense and I expect him to walk in and own this team. If he doesn't, I'm going to be disappointed.

I'm expecting a high level pick on a tackle more than some people because I don't think Kubiak is going to assume that Spencer can come back after making those kinds of assumptions last year. Salaam, Black, and Winston as my tackles don't make me warm & fuzzy but I don't know who Kubiak has his eye on in the draft. We've still got a long way to go before the pre-season starts and I'm expecting some more surprises with the line before we get there.

real
03-28-2007, 03:43 PM
Yeah, I'm expecting a lot from Schaub out of the gate. He's got experience with this sort of offense and I expect him to walk in and own this team. If he doesn't, I'm going to be disappointed.


If Schaub doesn't dominate off the back, that's a dissapointment to you but 5 yrs. of ineptitude wasn't ?

mganz
03-28-2007, 03:47 PM
Carr had his problems and I was a supporter of Carr. However, in regards to the o-line, it's not always about the number of sacks. I think it's more about pressure and there was just too much.

real
03-28-2007, 03:51 PM
Carr WAS the main problem.



We aren't picking Levi Brown...



The line will magically appear better next year....

texas mopar
03-28-2007, 04:05 PM
Carr had his problems and I was a supporter of Carr. However, in regards to the o-line, it's not always about the number of sacks. I think it's more about pressure and there was just too much.

I agree I'm wonder how many of our starters would start for other teams, just something I was thinking!!

real
03-28-2007, 04:10 PM
I agree I'm wonder how many of our starters would start for other teams, just something I was thinking!!

How many teams want Carr to start ?

The Pencil Neck
03-28-2007, 04:10 PM
If Schaub doesn't dominate off the back, that's a dissapointment to you but 5 yrs. of ineptitude wasn't ?

I expect a lot from Schaub because I think he's going to be a great QB and I want him to live up to my expectations. He knows this type of offense and should have minimal learning curve. If he's just an OK QB, then I'll be a little disappointed. That's not saying he won't be a huge step up from He Who Should Not Be Named Any More because I think even average QB play would be a huge improvement.

But I want great.

real
03-28-2007, 04:13 PM
I expect a lot from Schaub because I think he's going to be a great QB and I want him to live up to my expectations. He knows this type of offense and should have minimal learning curve. If he's just an OK QB, then I'll be a little disappointed. That's not saying he won't be a huge step up from He Who Should Not Be Named Any More because I think even average QB play would be a huge improvement.

But I want great.

O.K...I agree with that..

I think eventually he needs to be very good-great in order for us to say we made the right move with that trade...

The Pencil Neck
03-28-2007, 04:16 PM
I agree I'm wonder how many of our starters would start for other teams, just something I was thinking!!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but none of our linemen who were starters for us have left us to go start somewhere else. Evar.

Billy Miller, the TE who scored our first TD, is playing with the Saints but I don't think he's the starter. He's just a situational catching TE iirc.

Jabar Gafney, our old #2, went to Philly a team with a terrible receiving corp, and couldn't make the team. He was then picked up by the Pats later in the season and Brady actually made him look good in the playoffs. But the Pats are doing everything they can to get a good group of receivers in there this year and Gafney might not stick around.

Morency looked good in spot action for the Packers.

That's just off the top of my head so I'm probably missing several.

texas mopar
03-28-2007, 04:18 PM
How many teams want Carr to start ?

Not concerned who wants DC because he is not on my team anymore. I was just asking if we are looking at our o-line , I think it's fair to compare them to other teams talent!!!

TwinSisters
03-28-2007, 08:38 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but none of our linemen who were starters for us have left us to go start somewhere else. Evar.

Milford Brown started for us a few times and it looks like Wade is going to start for the Redskins at some point.

Not that Brown is starting for the Cardinals says a whole lot, but the Cardinals did not have the passing problems that we have.

tsip
03-28-2007, 09:22 PM
I completely agree, but somehow everything has been put on Carr's shoulders for the blame and manificantly Schaub is supposed to come in here and be the Wonder Boy. Unless we fix the passing game, that is not going to happen. The signing of Green was a huge step because he will probably be the best pass blocking running back we've ever had. Now we need to just fix the O-line, get them healthy and upgrade. The focus is all on the o-line as they have run out of excuses and will need to protect our QB.

Carr's biggest problem is not the OL--it's his 'horrible' mechanics that have only gotten worse in the NFL. JMO, but other teams are going to see this very quickly-plus Carr's lack of drive to fix these problems-and he's going to be toast.

OK, put all-pros on the line...who's going to get the ball to them? Carr doesn't have the foot work timing/ball placing/accuracy over 10 yds to hit anybody in stride/ability to read defenses/no pocket presence/gets balls knocked down/fumbles,etc.,etc. This is why Carr fails in the passing game and will continue to do so even with the best line...

If Kubiak thought it was the line, Carr would still be here...period. Watch.

real
03-29-2007, 10:40 AM
Not concerned who wants DC because he is not on my team anymore. I was just asking if we are looking at our o-line , I think it's fair to compare them to other teams talent!!!


That makes no sense....

The only thing you have to base your opinion on is last years play, and maybe previous years...

Newsflash: Carr WAS a part of the team then...

You can't judge one in that manner without judging the other at this point because the only QB our line has ever played for has been Carr....

real
03-29-2007, 10:45 AM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but none of our linemen who were starters for us have left us to go start somewhere else. Evar.

Billy Miller, the TE who scored our first TD, is playing with the Saints but I don't think he's the starter. He's just a situational catching TE iirc.

Jabar Gafney, our old #2, went to Philly a team with a terrible receiving corp, and couldn't make the team. He was then picked up by the Pats later in the season and Brady actually made him look good in the playoffs. But the Pats are doing everything they can to get a good group of receivers in there this year and Gafney might not stick around.

Morency looked good in spot action for the Packers.

That's just off the top of my head so I'm probably missing several.


What exactly are you getting at ?


Are you saying that our orginization did a poor job in evaluating talent, EXCEPT for the QB position ?


I don't get this argument...

We complain about the trades our previous regime made, we complain about the draft moves, we complain about some players the released, we complain about the players they signed....They did little right and mostly wrong...

It's pretty much a consensus amongnst the fans and just common spectators that the previous regime was on the wrong side of stupid.

Why would we think they got everything wrong except the QB ?

HoustonFrog
03-29-2007, 10:58 AM
I can't believe this thread is still going. A coach who evaluated Carr said his mecahnics were bad and that he had seen enough film on him to know he had problems. Kubiak and this staff, guys who have worked with top QBs, decided that he had some serious issues..enough to make them seem unfixable. Retired QBs like Moon said he thought he would be ok but never thought he was franchise. Others panned his game and his leadership and maturity. It has become obvious that the line was bad at first but that Carr was also a big part of them looking bad. It was a bad marriage.

I personally think the line will look improved this year but I'm not taking stock in the fact that it was either all Carr or all the line. They both had some terrible years but they helped each other look that way at times. Carr needs to take much more blame than he gets. The national media who never saw full seasons of games like to just throw the O-line under the bus. I'm glad it is over and I think the line will show that they weren't too shabby.

The Pencil Neck
03-29-2007, 11:21 AM
What exactly are you getting at ?

Are you saying that our orginization did a poor job in evaluating talent, EXCEPT for the QB position ?


I don't get this argument...

No.

AND the QB position. Our organization did a poor job in evaluating talent... PERIOD. (Prior to Rick and Gary.)

real
03-29-2007, 11:55 AM
No.

AND the QB position. Our organization did a poor job in evaluating talent... PERIOD. (Prior to Rick and Gary.)


I agree.

thunderkyss
03-29-2007, 12:50 PM
It's pretty much a consensus amongnst the fans and just common spectators that the previous regime was on the wrong side of stupid.


You S.O.B. You're gonna get me fired.

I'm sitting here looking at my computer scream, then all of a sudden I can't stop laughing. I got all kinds of A-Holes coming over to see what I was laughing about.

Thanks a lot bro.

:joker:

CVTexan
03-30-2007, 09:04 AM
I personally think the line will look improved this year but I'm not taking stock in the fact that it was either all Carr or all the line. They both had some terrible years but they helped each other look that way at times. Carr needs to take much more blame than he gets. The national media who never saw full seasons of games like to just throw the O-line under the bus. I'm glad it is over and I think the line will show that they weren't too shabby.

I could not agree more! For all the short comings of the offensive line... while they never got the sexy picks in the draft... this has never been a weakness that was just totally overlooked. It has been changing since day one, not to the likes of some here, but changing. They have attempted a number of free agents and draft picks that just didn't make it. The only one constant was the quarterback. Now I for one find it extremely difficult to believe that every O'line the Texans have had was "that" bad! Funny how the running game, while maybe not great, was pretty good at times. And for all of those wanting us to draft Brown I would say forget it. I dont think he is/will be a franchise LT... that being said we don't need him. Also stop to look at Denver's history of drafting starting O'line guys late in the draft. I would be dumbfounded, unless AP falls this far, if we do not go defense again. JMHO

Texans Horror
03-30-2007, 09:24 AM
For all the times that pressure was put on Carr and the dude just crumpled, or threw the ball out of bounds, or ran out of bounds, having Matt Schaub there should help.

However, I don't think the guy can affect all those times that somebody breezed past the tackles, whether it was Weigert, Spencer, Bedell, or even Salaam. He may be able to handle it better, but that is no excuse for the number of times he will have to handle it better. Let's not get blinded to the line's inabilities. They still have major issues that need to be resolved.

keyfro
03-30-2007, 09:37 AM
i think the chances of us drafting levi brown are actually pretty high...i don't believe kubiak sees jordon black as a starter in this league at the LT position...maybe another position but not LT...spencer is still uncertain if he'll be back and in what condition...so drafting levi brown is still a serious option and a good one i think...i don't think he's at the same level as jammal brown but maybe the same level as eric winston with longer arms and more bulk

as for our current o-line...we do have depth at both tackle positions...the team will probably re-sign bedell for cheap heading into the draft and that would give us 5 guys on the roster...we have depth at center but it's unknown who will emerge as the starter...at guard we probably have the best quality at the starters but the worst depth along the o-line...granted black and drop inside to play guard and both mckinney and hodgdon can move out to guard but the only real solid back up to those positions is jackson who is still an unknown as far as talent is concerned

look for our o-line to perform better in the second year of this system and under it's second year with mike sherman...i think pitts and weary are quality starters in this league...i think we'll see winston make good steps to being a quality starter...i think if spencer comes back he's gonna be solid and i think with all the competition at center we'll know who's better between mckinney and flanagan...if you add levi brown to that mix...we have even more option with moving spencer to RG and weary to Center if the staff feels that's best or have spencer and winston battle it out for the RT position or have brown battle everyone for playing time

real
03-30-2007, 09:48 AM
For all the times that pressure was put on Carr and the dude just crumpled, or threw the ball out of bounds, or ran out of bounds, having Matt Schaub there should help.

However, I don't think the guy can affect all those times that somebody breezed past the tackles, whether it was Weigert, Spencer, Bedell, or even Salaam. He may be able to handle it better, but that is no excuse for the number of times he will have to handle it better. Let's not get blinded to the line's inabilities. They still have major issues that need to be resolved.


IMHO, the guys that we "intend" to start form just as talented a line as most teams in the NFL...

The only real thing or line lacks is cohesiveness...Hopefully we can avoid the injury bug this year so tht our line can gel....

But I don't think there are "major" problems like you claim...

I think the "major" problem is no longer with the team....

thunderkyss
03-30-2007, 10:10 AM
i think the chances of us drafting levi brown are actually pretty high...i don't believe kubiak sees jordon black as a starter in this league at the LT position...maybe another position but not LT...spencer is still uncertain if he'll be back and in what condition...so drafting levi brown is still a serious option and a good one i think...i don't think he's at the same level as jammal brown but maybe the same level as eric winston with longer arms and more bulk

I don't see us taking an OT in this draft at all. We've taken care of the LT position.

1)Spencer can come back and play as well as we hope. He starts at LT.
2)Spencer can come back, but not until week 4 or week 5. Salaam Starts.
3)Spencer can't play like we hoped. Winston is "ready" to make the start. Winston Starts at LT, Spencer/Black is our RT.
4)Spencer can't play like we hoped, Winston isn't ready, Salaam Starts for 4 or 5 weeks until Winston is ready. Spencer/Black is our RT.
5)Spencer can't play like we hoped, Winston will never make it to LT. Salaam starts for 4 or 5 weeks, Black plays for 2 weeks, Salaam plays for 4 or 5 weeks, Black plays for 2 weeks, Salaam finishes the season at LT.

5a)After another year with Kubiak, maybe Winston becomes our LT for '08, maybe Black becomes our LT for '08. Maybe Winston becomes our LG, and Pitts is moved out to LT.

We've got many options for LT. We need to work on the interior line.... we need a Center that can play in '08. We're fine now, with McKinney(who can play center & Guard) & Flanagan, but we need to have there replacement on the team in '07.