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View Full Version : Why is everyone so angry at the media regarding the Williams pick?


gtexan02
03-11-2007, 04:30 PM
I don't get it. I mean, we did screw up last year. The media reports the current opinion, and the current opinion is that we messed up. Heres the deal:

We go into 2006 draft saying we don't need a QB.
We pass on Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler (3 QBs with grat potential)
We say Carr is QB of the future and our franchise guy
Carr plays horribly all year, our offense is terrible.
Vince leads the Titans to a crazy comeback year, Matt and Cutler show promise, and we are now shopping Carr for a 4th round pick.
And to top it all off, we are considering starting a career backup or drafting Quinn

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


Even if that doesn't, we go into 2006 saying we are set with our halfback situation because we have DD.
Even without him, we claim that Kubiak's system can make a 1000 yard rusher out of anyone.
The first half of the season our running game goes nowhwere
Our 2006 HB pick, Lundy, struggles in every game not during the preseason
First move we make in 2007 free agency is to sign an over 30 back, Ahman Green
And to top it all off, for the latter half of the season, Bush breaks out of his funk and starts playing like the guy everyone thought he was going to be. And the Saints go deep into the NFC playoffs.

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


And even if both of those don't, we ended up drafting Mario Williams, the next Julius Peppers to fix our pass rush.
The first part of the season he was invisible
He then starts to get going, only to sort of disapear as the year progressed
And to top it all off, we cite pass rush as one of our biggest needs AGAIN this offseason

So doesn't that warrant some, "oops they msesed up!" talk?

The fact is, we pass on 3 of the best QBs to come out in a long time, and the very next year have a huge hole at QB
We pass on a fantastic playmaking RB only to sign a band-aid back the next offseason
We claim we did this to shore up our Dl and pass rush, only to relist it as one of our priorities this offseason.

I know that at the time we thought that Carr was going to be ok, I know that the OL was unpredictable beause of injuries, I know that Bush would probably not have succeeded here, I know that Williams and the rest of the DL was injured a lot last year, but you have to admit that in general, we had a good opportunity last year to pick a "media-dubbed-sure-bet" We didn't, and the guy we picked did very little. As a result, we've got to be OK with the media bashing.
We went against the grain, it didn't pan out as we'd hoped, and now we've got to live with our choices.

I personally think in time VY's technical weakness will start to show, while Leinart and Cutler will both improve. I think Reggie will be great, and I think MW will also be dominant. But for now, it SEEMS to most that we got stuck with the weakest link, and until MW comes through with a dominant year, we are going to be looked down on. And rightfully so

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 04:40 PM
Nope as there were two players on the team draft boards for the #1 pick - Bush and Williams. We made the smart move due to the impact Bush would have had on our cap, which would have created an imbalance at a spend level - 60+m vs 40M for many years. Balance on the field via a balanced cap is smart.

afcman
03-11-2007, 04:46 PM
Why is everyone so angry at the media regarding the Williams pick?

Um, because they were right? We had 3 great QB's we could have picked.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 04:51 PM
Um, because they were right? We had 3 great QB's we could have picked.

Because Casserly's entire rationale behind that pick was 'We're not gonna be able to outscore Indianapolis, so let's draft a guy that can keep them from scoring." I'm still sick to the stomach everyday about that one.

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 04:52 PM
Because Casserly's entire rationale behind that pick was 'We're not gonna be able to outscore Indianapolis, so let's draft a guy that can keep them from scoring." I'm still sick to the stomach everyday about that one.

And we wind up beating Indy for the first time in team history.

Things that make you go hmmm?

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 04:59 PM
And we wind up beating Indy for the first time in team history.

Things that make you go hmmm?

Maybe it was because their run defense at the time we played them. Could it be because Ron Dayne tortured their D? I mean, DC wasn't even in the gameplan that day.

Very weak argument.

TLove21
03-11-2007, 05:01 PM
ya you're right......yall screwed up

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 05:03 PM
Maybe it was because their run defense at the time we played them. Could it be because Ron Dayne tortured their D? I mean, DC wasn't even in the gameplan that day.

Very weak argument.

Weak arguements are usually born from a weak premise.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 05:05 PM
Long post but if you want to simplify it:

Last year was laoded with "game breakers" on offense...franchise guys

We went defensive line to put pressure on the teams in our division

A year later we still have no playmakers and are still looking to d-line and defensive help in the draft.

Oops

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:07 PM
Weak arguements are usually born from a weak premise.

For Casserly to automatically assume that we couldn't outscore Indy no matter what we did just proves his incompetence. Talk about a 'losing mentality'. He made a critical mistake by reaching for Mario Williams. You just don't pass up a special player like Vince or Reggie. It doesn't matter what your immediate needs are.

For example, if you're Cincinnati, New England, or any team for that matter and you have the #1 pick this year...you draft Calvin Johnson #1. It doesn't matter if you're already stacked at WR. CJ, just as Reggie and Vince were last year, is a guy that's too special of a player to pass up.

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 05:09 PM
For Casserly to automatically assume that we couldn't outscore Indy no matter what we did just proves his incompetence. Talk about a 'losing mentality'. He made a critical mistake by reaching for Mario Williams. You just don't pass up a special player like Vince or Reggie. It doesn't matter what your immediate needs are.

For example, if you're Cincinnati, New England, or any team for that matter and you have the #1 pick this year...you draft Calvin Johnson #1. It doesn't matter if you're already stacked at WR. CJ, just as Reggie and Vince were last year, is a guy that's too special of a player to pass up.

Williams was not a reach. If Bush went #1 where do you think Mario would have gone?

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Williams was not a reach. If Bush went #1 where do you think Mario would have gone?

Probably #4 to the Jets. But that's not the point. I'm trying to say that, regardless of need and 'drafting for your division', you never pass up on an instant gamebreaker. Chew on this one too, we're still looking for D-Line help one year after drafting Mario.

I'm a fan of Mario and I think he'll do well, but nevertheless, we made a mistake.

The look on Kubiak's face when he was in the war room as the pick was being announced said it all. He didn't want Mario, that was obvious from Day 1.

PapaL
03-11-2007, 05:15 PM
What makes Reggie or Vince so special? Have either them won a SB? They are all, including MW, untapped potential at this point.

Reggie walked onto a pretty good team. He didn't make them better; change in staff and a FA QB did.

VY I would have liked, but not at #1. Unfortunetly we could/did not trade down.

PapaL
03-11-2007, 05:16 PM
Probably #4 to the Jets. But that's not the point. I'm trying to say that, regardless of need and 'drafting for your division', you never pass up on an instant gamebreaker. Chew on this one too, we're still looking for D-Line help one year after drafting Mario.

I'm a fan of Mario and I think he'll do well, but nevertheless, we made a mistake.

The look on Kubiak's face when he was in the war room as the pick was being announced said it all. He didn't want Mario, that was obvious from Day 1.

Uhh no, he would have gone to N.O with the #2 pick.

The Pencil Neck
03-11-2007, 05:17 PM
I don't get it. I mean, we did screw up last year. The media reports the current opinion, and the current opinion is that we messed up. Heres the deal:

We go into 2006 draft saying we don't need a QB.
We pass on Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler (3 QBs with grat potential)
We say Carr is QB of the future and our franchise guy
Carr plays horribly all year, our offense is terrible.
Vince leads the Titans to a crazy comeback year, Matt and Cutler show promise, and we are now shopping Carr for a 4th round pick.
And to top it all off, we are considering starting a career backup or drafting Quinn

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?

Um, no. That's revisionist history and hindsight being 20/20. At the time, only some a few local Longhorn fans thought we should take VY. Very few people took that seriously. I think most people were floored when the Titans took VY with the third pick because that's where Leinart was going to be reunited with his old coach.

Most people thought that Carr would be fine with a little coaching by Kubiak and improvement in our line.

No, the media all thought we should take Bush. I still don't think Bush was the right choice for us to take. He needs to share time with someone like LenDale White or Deuce McAllister because he's more of a change of pace back.

Most of us are angry at the media because:

1. They refuse to recognize that Mario filled more of a need for us than Bush would have.
2. They continue to harp every minor thing that Bush does like it's some major accomplishment when for most of the year, he really didn't perform that well.
3. They've started saying it was a mistake that we didn't take Vince when if you go back and look at what THEY were saying before the draft, everyone thought that Vince was going to be a project and probably wouldn't be able to play his game in the NFL.
4. It is now an unwritten rule that if any reporter mentions the Texans, they have to mention what a mistake it was that we didn't take Vince or Reggie and what a horrible draft we had even though we nabbed the DROY and got several other starters.

The top 4 guys on the board were Bush, Williams, Leinart, and Ferguson. And most of the reporters had them going in that order. Most of the mocks had them in that order. I think the media is just ticked off overall because the entire draft went totally differently than they had been reporting it was going to go.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:18 PM
What makes Reggie or Vince so special? Have either them won a SB? They are all, including MW, untapped potential at this point.

Reggie walked onto a pretty good team. He didn't make them better; change in staff and a FA QB did.

VY I would have liked, but not at #1. Unfortunetly we could/did not trade down.

Reggie walked onto a 3-13 team. We were 2-14. What?

VY walked onto a 4-12 team. We were 2-14. What? Vince singlehandedly turned that team around, got Jeff Fisher a contract extension, and got them 1 game from the playoffs.

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 05:19 PM
Probably #4 to the Jets. But that's not the point. I'm trying to say that, regardless of need and 'drafting for your division', you never pass up on an instant gamebreaker. Chew on this one too, we're still looking for D-Line help one year after drafting Mario.

I'm a fan of Mario and I think he'll do well, but nevertheless, we made a mistake.

The look on Kubiak's face when he was in the war room as the pick was being announced said it all. He didn't want Mario, that was obvious from Day 1.

We made no mistake. Our issue is in the secondary, we knew that after last year's draft. We lost our two DT's to injuries and that did not help. Mario is as much as a game breaker as Bush and Young, just more subtle due to the nature of the positions.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:20 PM
Uhh no, he would have gone to N.O with the #2 pick.

#2, #4...? "Gold jacket, Green jacket, who gives a ____!"

The Pencil Neck
03-11-2007, 05:20 PM
Probably #4 to the Jets. But that's not the point. I'm trying to say that, regardless of need and 'drafting for your division', you never pass up on an instant gamebreaker. Chew on this one too, we're still looking for D-Line help one year after drafting Mario.

I'm a fan of Mario and I think he'll do well, but nevertheless, we made a mistake.

The look on Kubiak's face when he was in the war room as the pick was being announced said it all. He didn't want Mario, that was obvious from Day 1.

I totally disagree. Mario was probably going #2 to the Saints. We just swapped those around. I think taking Mario was the right decision. I think Reggie would have been a bust of astronomical proportions if we had drafted him.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:21 PM
We made no mistake. Our issue is in the secondary, we knew that after last year's draft. We lost our two DT's to injuries and that did not help. Mario is as much as a game breaker as Bush and Young, just more subtle due to the nature of the positions.

I'm not doubting Mario's potential. I think he's a darn good DE, but we needed instant OFFENSE last year. You can have the strongest defense in the league, but if you're not explosive on offense you're not going much of anywhere.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 05:22 PM
What makes Reggie or Vince so special? Have either them won a SB? They are all, including MW, untapped potential at this point.

Reggie walked onto a pretty good team. He didn't make them better; change in staff and a FA QB did.

VY I would have liked, but not at #1. Unfortunetly we could/did not trade down.

Sorry, but that is just plain wrong. He made them better. He let a RB that had been hurt off and on for a couple of years split snaps and have a productive year while at the same time being productive himself. Deuce getting his breathers was huge. Not only that but when you're last option is dumping it to Bush, it makes the Qbs job easier.

As for Mario. I think he is a good man who will be a strong player but why would you take a guy #1 when there were questions about his motor and taking plays off?They went for need instead of getting the best playmaker available. They are again looking for D-line help and still don't have the playmaker. It was a mistake, even if Mario turns out to be a help.

Kaiser Toro
03-11-2007, 05:24 PM
I'm not doubting Mario's potential. I think he's a darn good DE, but we needed instant OFFENSE last year. You can have the strongest defense in the league, but if you're not explosive on offense you're not going much of anywhere.

We were not going anywhere last year, we did the right thing by preparing for the future by being cap balanced. Once Carr and his contract are gone the offense will start to breathe.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 05:24 PM
Here's my take on the whole draft hoopla of last year...and I do get upset at the media at times because none of them know anything about the Texans..they only watched us 1 or 2 games MAYBE when they were studying the Colts.

1. Vince Young was never in the picture. He wasn't rated the highest at his position let alone overall. If they took a QB overall it prob. would have been Leinart. (Vince proved a lot of people wrong including myself with his ability to adapt to the pros... Jury is still out if he is a long term phenom or just an incredible performer towards the beginning. Michael Vick is still a threat but nothing special..but VY is better than Vick...we'll see in a few years about Young) Once we signed Carr..QB was out of the question.

2. Reggie Bush is an incredible athlete. His highlight reels from USC are simply amazing. Some this year were quite phenominal...but I don't like the 15 yard rushing gain..dodging 11 defensive players...almost breaking your neck....when the next play is a 10 yard loss because he's trying to do the same thing. No doubt..ANY team in the NFL would love to have him, but he's not a franchise running back. He should be classified as ATH (Athlete). Return, slot receiver, running back. He would not have been a good fit for our team at all...UNLESS we already had an established Offensive line(which we don't) and a power runner that can go the whole game (which we don't). I was PRO reggie up untill 1 week before the draft.

3. Mario Williams is young. His stats were questionable in college because most came in a few games his senior year. There's no question this kid has huge potential...a dominating DE which was hands down the best defensive player in the draft..probably this year's too. Not a popular pick at all...probably would have been if ESPN covered him more...or he went to USC or UT..he would have gotten a lot more talk about him..

***I do not like what the franchise did in terms of our offseason moves last year.***

1. David Carr contract extension- 3 years! $8million signing bonus! He should be here throughout..but now they are talking about getting rid of him. Dumb, dumb, dumb imo. If they were unsure of him..they should have signed him to a 1 year deal and 1 year deal only. If they were fairly confident, they should be confident enough now to keep him 1 more year. I don't understand this move at all...but neither can ANY of the fans...pro carr here (why get rid of him now?) or anit-Carr (why'd we resign him?)

2. Eric Moulds- I liked the deal at the time...but why give away a 5th round draft pick for only 1 season of playing time. we now don't have a 5th rd guy playing for us for another 2-3 years..minimum. His contract was pretty heafty too..big bonus for 1 year of playing. The rest of our draft did pretty good playing time wise...i wouldn't doubt our 5th rounder would have too. Marques Hagans or Jeremy Bloom both WR could have been sweet pickups...both were there for us.

3.Domanick Davis- what the F@#%. Don't lie to us and say we have our franchise QB if you get rid of him the next season. Dont lie to us and say we have our RB when he didn't play the entire 2006 season and will get CUT..not traded but CUT. and will most likely never play football again. Poor Dom..we all liked him.


*** Vince Young proved me wrong so far..had an incredible year..sometimes I wish we had taken him so we could have some highlight tapes. Reggie is incredible but after the season has played out I'd still take Vince and I'd still take Mario (in hopes of building a stellar D).

A lot of people hate hearing this, and i don't blame them..but we are REBUILDING our team. Mario was injured all season long and will only get better. If we can give him more of a supporting cast around him along the Line, and secondary mostly...we will be great.

I am not looking for us to be the best team anytime soon. So just by that mindset naturally i won't be as hard on the texans as those that said we HAVE to make the playoffs this year or Kubiak should be fired. I'm all for building our Defense through this draft and it'll pretty much be finished imo. That leaves a lost on Offense and quite frankly...a pretty boring team to watch. I want points and awesome offensive plays just like the next but no matter what we do this draft...IT AINT GONNA HAPPEN.


The main reason I'm upset with the media about the picks last year is, quite frankly, they don't know ***** about our team. that's the truth. We are building our team for long term benifits (is...see colts the last 5 years.) and it's going to take time, and getting FA's like Ahman Green instead of Nate Clements. once we're 1 or 2 players away of being pre-season playoff favorites..then we go for the big $$ FA. Clements would be sweet next to Dunta...I wanted him so bad but felt he'd be too expensive for our FA salary cap situation...if only he would have been a FA next season..he could have been here.

i guess this was more of a rant gtexan...lol..and i think i got most of what i think out..i'm not going to re-read this anywho cuz that will take too long.

Mario Williams, Demeco Ryans, Dunta Robinson.
If we add Laron Landry, and a stud DT and LB...our Defensive will be...*krunk*

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:25 PM
I totally disagree. Mario was probably going #2 to the Saints. We just swapped those around. I think taking Mario was the right decision. I think Reggie would have been a bust of astronomical proportions if we had drafted him.

Just like Reggie was a bust for the Saints, right?

PapaL
03-11-2007, 05:25 PM
Reggie walked onto a 3-13 team. We were 2-14. What?

VY walked onto a 4-12 team. We were 2-14. What? Vince singlehandedly turned that team around, got Jeff Fisher a contract extension, and got them 1 game from the playoffs.

What I'm saying is that Bush did not have anywhere near the impact on his team overall then VY did. VY won games for TEN. Bush, well lets say he didn't set the league a blaze as the running back he was drafted to be. If not for Drew Brees the Saints would have still stunk it up.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 05:29 PM
We were not going anywhere last year, we did the right thing by preparing for the future by being cap balanced. Once Carr and his contract are gone the offense will start to breathe.

You're talking about cap room. We would have paid Bush or Young the same amount of money we paid Mario. AND gotten better results last year. Automatically assuming we weren't going anywhere in 06 was the mistake Casserly made, and apparently the mistake you made as well. You don't just put your tail between your legs and concede.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 05:45 PM
There are only three AP rookie of the year QBs in the past 39 years

1970 Dennis Shaw - Bills : flamed out
2004 Roethlisberger
2006 Vince Young

dvs1
03-11-2007, 05:47 PM
Sorry, but that is just plain wrong. He made them better. He let a RB that had been hurt off and on for a couple of years split snaps and have a productive year while at the same time being productive himself. Deuce getting his breathers was huge. Not only that but when you're last option is dumping it to Bush, it makes the Qbs job easier.

Aaron Stecker had been a better number 2 running back than Bush was last year. He did admirably as a number 3 WR. That being said I don't see how that is a good use of top 5 draft pick.

Texans are made fun of because our second round pick outshone our first round pick, while the saints first round pick got outshone by their seventh rounder. A quick search on NFL.com had him ranked as 46th best running back, whereas Mario was ranked 50th of all Dlineman which takes into account 3 to 4 positions so a much larger sample source.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 05:52 PM
A quick search on NFL.com had him ranked as 46th best running back, whereas Mario was ranked 50th of all Dlineman which takes into account 3 to 4 positions so a much larger sample source.

That's ignoring his slot WR role. Throw his receiver rating in there and you will see him sky rocket to the top. 88 catches for 742 will top some teams #1 WR ( certainly there #2s ).

Spled
03-11-2007, 05:52 PM
Mario drew double teams all year on one foot. If you listen to ESPN hype about Bush, "he's valuable even when he's not in the play", then that applies to Mario as well.

afcman
03-11-2007, 05:56 PM
A year later we still have no playmakers

Yeah, I'm of the mind that you DO NOT pass on special players. And there were two, maybe 4, we could have picked other that Mario last year. I'm happy to have Mario on the team, but I wouldn't have picked him first.

With the way our OL has been, just think how Young could have helped us with his ability to get out and run. As it has been, teams know they can blitz us a lot. Young would have cut that out.

Look.....a year later and we still need help just about everywhere. And the networks only want to show the Texans if they can't help it.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Aaron Stecker had been a better number 2 running back than Bush was last year. He did admirably as a number 3 WR. That being said I don't see how that is a good use of top 5 draft pick.

Texans are made fun of because our second round pick outshone our first round pick, while the saints first round pick got outshone by their seventh rounder. A quick search on NFL.com had him ranked as 46th best running back, whereas Mario was ranked 50th of all Dlineman which takes into account 3 to 4 positions so a much larger sample source.

Who said I thought we should take Bush?People are wrong though if they don't think his impact went beyond stats. When you line up and you have Colston, Deuce, Bush and a QB in Brees, you have to account for alot of talent. We don't know what he would have done as a starting RB. Duece was healthy and splitting time and he was also a WR.

Again, my problem wasn't Bush or Mario. My problem is that the scouting notes on Mario, besides have a great combine, included that he took plays off and they weren't sure about his motor. You have the #1 pick in the draft and have zero playmakers besides AJ. There are 3-4 top QBs out there and other guys like Bush....we went need and took a D-lineman who may be great. The fact is though, he wasn't as a rookie while other guys made a difference. What makes it harder to take for some is that we are still looking d-line and still don't have a playmaker. How is that?I actually wanted Mario last year...if we moved down. But you hope to only have that #1 pick once and you take BPA. I like Mario alot but if you look objectively and where we are at now..wrong move, wrong time. In order for him to be worth the #1 pick you will have to say that he was greater than all of the other guys drafted that year.

afcman
03-11-2007, 05:58 PM
Mario drew double teams all year on one foot.

Cool. And our record was what?

The Pencil Neck
03-11-2007, 06:03 PM
Just like Reggie was a bust for the Saints, right?

Exactly. He wasn't the rookie of the year for his team, right? :)

Do you honestly think that you could take Bush, put him in Deuce McAllister's job, and have him be successful? In our offense, he would have had to have done that to be successful. We would have needed him to be the every down back and we couldn't have taken him rushing for all those negative yard plays. He would have been BENCHED on our team.

There were a lot of teams that he could be successful on but our team was/is not one of them.

It's like OJ Simpson. He got drafted onto a team where the coach did not want him and did not like him and whose offense was not the right kind of offense for him to be successful. He was a bust the first few years he was in the league. It wasn't until they got a new coach who put a new offense in place that OJ started showing what he could do.

Bush, in our offense last year, would have been the wrong guy at the wrong time. Fans would have been booing him and the media would have turned on him.

Spled
03-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Cool. And our record was what?

You can't determine everything from one player or one year. That's how people make simplistic conclusions like - Vince and Reggie single handedly made their teams great.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 06:09 PM
Mario drew double teams all year on one foot. If you listen to ESPN hype about Bush, "he's valuable even when he's not in the play", then that applies to Mario as well.

drawing a double team is nothing to sniff at, but Elvis Dumervil was drafted 126th and recorded 8.5 sacks and a forced fumble in 13 games.

He was also the 9th end taken last year.

afcman
03-11-2007, 06:14 PM
You can't determine everything from one player or one year.

You're right. But I'm looking at what our needs were/are and the fact that the team needs a MAJOR boost. Again I say.....I believe that you don't pass up on special players. The kind of players that only come around so often.

Mario is fine. I'm glad he's on the team. But the other options would have been better for our immediate situation. I would have gone with one of the QB's, NOT Bush. Because I believe that you build the team around the QB.

But I do agree that with the division we're in that we NEED to have a killer DL. Now more than ever.

Look.....a year later and we still need help just about everywhere. And the networks only want to show the Texans if they can't help it.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 06:18 PM
Bush, in our offense last year, would have been the wrong guy at the wrong time. Fans would have been booing him and the media would have turned on him.

I wouldn't say that.

Kubiak was already talking about how many different things you could do with Bush prior to the draft. It's not like Dayne wasn't going to be there and Carr is the master of the overhand shovel pass... giving Bush plenty of shots to work it all the way down the field on his own.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 06:41 PM
Kubiak chose Mario and signed him the night before the draft. He handed Reggie to the Saints. If we are going to get personal on this, and drag the players into it, like they had a say, then anyone who is pissy about the draft needs to talk to Kubes and the FO. Getting presonal here is absurd. Talking potential performance is absurd.

The TEXANS had the first pick and they took it the night before the draft. Mario is a great pick. The foot injury was hindering, but he didn't sit the bench. It seems that Kubes is setting up his offense now. I'd kind of like to believe the guy has some semblence of what he's doing.

alright... I looked it over twice. I am not seeing personal.

afcman
03-11-2007, 06:52 PM
Hey Twin, that's a funny avatar. :)

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Kubiak chose Mario and signed him the night before the draft. He handed Reggie to the Saints. If we are going to get personal on this, and drag the players into it, like they had a say, then anyone who is pissy about the draft needs to talk to Kubes and the FO. Getting presonal here is absurd. Talking potential performance is absurd.

The TEXANS had the first pick and they took it the night before the draft. Mario is a great pick. The foot injury was hindering, but he didn't sit the bench. It seems that Kubes is setting up his offense now. I'd kind of like to believe the guy has some semblence of what he's doing.


You don't know that anymore than anyone else. He didn't show it and others did show that they could be. We will see but again, he has to show he was the best player in the whole draft, just not a good guy for the future. Considering we are still looking D-line and don't have playmakers what is to say it is a great pick?

dirty steve
03-11-2007, 06:53 PM
Because Casserly's entire rationale behind that pick was 'We're not gonna be able to outscore Indianapolis, so let's draft a guy that can keep them from scoring." I'm still sick to the stomach everyday about that one.
one more time. casserly was just a "yes man" at draft time, this was kubiak's call. not sure how you could still think that c-cass had anything to do with this pick.

Marcus
03-11-2007, 07:07 PM
one more time. casserly was just a "yes man" at draft time, this was kubiak's call. not sure how you could still think that c-cass had anything to do with this pick.

one more time. casserly was just a "yes man" at draft time, this was mcnair's call. not sure how you could still think that c-cass had anything to do with this pick.

DocBar
03-11-2007, 07:08 PM
I'm not doubting Mario's potential. I think he's a darn good DE, but we needed instant OFFENSE last year. You can have the strongest defense in the league, but if you're not explosive on offense you're not going much of anywhere.

That is a load of horse squeeze. DEFENSE wins championships. A good offense certainly helps. Ya gotta be able to outscore the opponent, which is much more likely when you keep the opponents FROM scoring. I don't think enough has, or CAN, be said about the character MW showed by playing through his injury. He could've EASILY taken half the year off, but he chose to stay in and get the experience he needs to excel. Not to mention, all the grief that would've been added to this topic if he missed significant time. IMHO, Mario will be an absolute BEAST next year. He's shown character, integrity, passion for the game and a willingness to do what it takes to be the best. Bush is a lot more halfa** than halfback. If the rest of the sAints team hadn't played at such a high level, they would be right next to us in THIS years draft. They improved IN SPITE of Bush, NOT because of him. MW showed much more atheleticism and heart than Bush. My jury is still out on VY. The sun shines on a dogs butt every now and then. Luck played a large role in most of the Titans wins. That, my friend, will only take you so far in pro sports. He had flahes of brilliance and definitely made things happen on busted plays, but those kinds of things tend to average out.
My 2 cents worth.

bigbrewster2000
03-11-2007, 07:08 PM
Long post but if you want to simplify it:

Last year was laoded with "game breakers" on offense...franchise guys

We went defensive line to put pressure on the teams in our division

A year later we still have no playmakers and are still looking to d-line and defensive help in the draft.

Oops

Mario does not play all 4 positions on defensive line. He plays DE, we are not looking to replace him we are looking mainly for DT's, so you can stop with the "we are still looking for D-Line help" talk. If you have the opportunity to add more playmakers on a dline you do it. It all starts in the trenches(like you haven't heard that before.) All of the good dline groups in the NFL have more than one good player.

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 07:09 PM
one more time. casserly was just a "yes man" at draft time, this was kubiak's call. not sure how you could still think that c-cass had anything to do with this pick.

There are two things that linger to support this:

Kubiak called a meeting with the team and announced that no one would be on the team without Casserly. This was after the draft.

The Casserly fallguy speech where he got a little crazy and said to blame him not Mario or something like that.

While both are weak in a sense, it still leaves you to wonder.

Plus I guess there is the "I was not fired" deal that went down also. He wasn't fired and was really planning on moving into NFL headquarters ( so the story goes anyhow ).

ComstockLode
03-11-2007, 07:09 PM
As most expect, I would agree with every word of the original post.

We have had 3 great moves in the history of this franchise: Andre Johnson, Dunta Robinson, and Demeco Ryans.

There were four instant playmakers in last years draft, we passed on two of them. We found the one in the second round. The saints found one much much later. Those are facts, and whether its great scouting or not....we got very lucky we found ryans or we would have been awful.

afcman
03-11-2007, 07:11 PM
DEFENSE wins championships.

I think it's both in todays game. Look at the last SB.

But EVERYTHING is so important now. QB, OL, DL, etc. Very competitive.

afcman
03-11-2007, 07:13 PM
While both are weak in a sense, it still leaves you to wonder.

Yeah because it says a lot about the pick.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 07:23 PM
Mario does not play all 4 positions on defensive line. He plays DE, we are not looking to replace him we are looking mainly for DT's, so you can stop with the "we are still looking for D-Line help" talk. If you have the opportunity to add more playmakers on a dline you do it. It all starts in the trenches(like you haven't heard that before.) All of the good dline groups in the NFL have more than one good player.

Why should I stop..we are. Yes I know we are looking DT so that makes Travis Johnson and Mario we have picked now on the line. What people are missing is that this was THE #1 pick. It isn't a NEED pick, it is a BPA pick. There were questions on Mario. In order for it to be worth it you have top say ,after all is said and done, that he was the best player in the draft. So far, he isn't. I think he will be a solid, top notch guy but right now we are still looking to add to the D-line and we are still lacking those playmakers after having the #1 pick. Sorry but it shouldn't be that way. BTW, I liked Mario in this draft...if we moved down.

DocBar
03-11-2007, 07:24 PM
I think it's both in todays game. Look at the last SB.

But EVERYTHING is so important now. QB, OL, DL, etc. Very competitive.

I mostly agree with that, but how many SB's did Indy win when it's D sucked?They had some trouble with stopping the run, but the D put them in the SB with a stellar playoff performance. Indy's O was MIA for a couple of playoff games.
:bubble:

gtexan02
03-11-2007, 07:32 PM
Yikes I've started a debate. I guess the whole point of this, despite what I may have actually said, was to say this:

"I wish people would quit bashing every media outlet for talking about the Reggie/VY/MW draft last year, because out of the three, we did pick the one who was the least productive."

I don't know who is going to turn into more of a weapon, gamebreaker, etc, but at this point, after 1 full season, I'd be willing to argue that almost all of the top 10 picks in last years drafts had more of an impact on their team than Williams did on our team.

I DO think he has potential. But I also think that he was disapointing last year, and its an easy out to blame the media for harping

DocBar
03-11-2007, 07:46 PM
Yikes I've started a debate. I guess the whole point of this, despite what I may have actually said, was to say this:

"I wish people would quit bashing every media outlet for talking about the Reggie/VY/MW draft last year, because out of the three, we did pick the one who was the least productive."

I don't know who is going to turn into more of a weapon, gamebreaker, etc, but at this point, after 1 full season, I'd be willing to argue that almost all of the top 10 picks in last years drafts had more of an impact on their team than Williams did on our team.

I DO think he has potential. But I also think that he was disapointing last year, and its an easy out to blame the media for harping
I disagree with you. I think Mario had a very good impact on our team last year and had less help surrounding him than RB or VY(that's debatable on VY).
The media harped on RB incessantly. ESPN(and all its pundits) glorified the fact that RB was on the field. THEY made highlights, he, for the most part, did NOT. That's my gripe about the media. They made out like RB singlehandedly rebuilt the Superdome and carried the team to the NFC Championship game when, in fact, he had a very pedestrian season by any means of looking at it, but even moreso when you consider all the hype that went with it.

afcman
03-11-2007, 07:49 PM
but how many SB's did Indy win when it's D sucked?

Very true.

Sick of ESPN? Me too. Get Sirius. :yahoo:

TwinSisters
03-11-2007, 08:02 PM
A quick look at the fairly good DEs in the 2006 draft

Mario #1 overall 1st DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/427356

Tamba Hali #20 2nd DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/412000

Mathias Kiwanuka #32 3rd DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/414639

----
Darryl Tapp #63 4th DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/421962

Elvis Dumervil #126 9th DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/409949

Mark Anderson #159 14th DE
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/405604

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 08:05 PM
If Vince Young or Reggie Bush had come down with plantar fasciitis midway through the season last year, we'd be having a different conversation right now. Mario had a disappointing year, but he was also playing with only one good foot, where as two are normally required to be a successful defensive end. Imagine if Reggie's foot hurt too badly to make his patented turn on a dime cuts, or if Vince Young was hobbled with a leg injury that relegated him to being a pocket passer. People would be questioning how much of their disappointing seasons had been injury, and how much was them just not living up to expectations.

As other have noted, the whole "We chose Mario #1 and we're STILL looking for DLine help..." is bunk. You normally only have 1 RB on the field. You normally only have one QB on the field. You normally have 4 DL on the field. Mario is one man, there are three other positions on that line, NONE of which have starters that are set in stone. Mario is solidifying his role on the line as a player who can stop the run, pass rush, and move around when needed.

It wasn't a sexy pick, and the media loves to pump up the glamour positions. Vince had a great year, but I think teams will learn to defend his ground game with time (not totally stop it, but latch it down a bit). Reggie had a good year, not great but good. He's the second best running back on that team, and I'm not sure how he'd fair as the #1 back, but we'll see. I think all three players have the POTENTIAL to be perennial pro-bowlers in the right situation.

It looks bad right now, and ESPN likes to point out "blunders" and that guys they pimp are having success. I think the Texans made a smart choice but I need to see some more proof from Mario before I can say we made the right choice. Let's wait until they've all completed healthy seasons before passing judgement on the pick.

freedoggy77
03-11-2007, 08:07 PM
Mario Williams has done absolutely nothing, I agree with the media. I REALLY DESPISE CASSERLY

afcman
03-11-2007, 08:14 PM
If Vince Young or Reggie Bush had come down with plantar fasciitis midway through the season last year, we'd be having a different conversation right now.

True, but you can't go on " if ". Are you gonna pass up on a sure-to-be-a-star because they might get hurt? You can't live that way.

I REALLY DESPISE CASSERLY

Yeah and frickin CBS put him on this last season as some kind of expert. I like the CBS crew and would rather watch them over FOX, but having Casserly on there drove me crazy. There were several times where the guys didn't say SOME things about the Texans because of Casserly being there.

Napa Auto Parts
03-11-2007, 08:29 PM
Probably #4 to the Jets. But that's not the point. I'm trying to say that, regardless of need and 'drafting for your division', you never pass up on an instant gamebreaker. Chew on this one too, we're still looking for D-Line help one year after drafting Mario.

I'm a fan of Mario and I think he'll do well, but nevertheless, we made a mistake.

The look on Kubiak's face when he was in the war room as the pick was being announced said it all. He didn't want Mario, that was obvious from Day 1.

Uhh no, he would have gone to N.O with the #2 pick.


From What the saints gm has said in previous interviews they had there Eye's on AJ Hawk the whole so we probably could of picked Mario at number 4

nunusguy
03-11-2007, 08:35 PM
I totally disagree. Mario was probably going #2 to the Saints. We just swapped those around. I think taking Mario was the right decision. I think Reggie would have been a bust of astronomical proportions if we had drafted him.

KT & PN are right about the player rankings in last years Draft: Bush was the concensus #1 & Mario was the consensus #2. That is if you ignore the QBs. So Mario certainly wasn't a "reach" with the #1 pick. Now it remains to be seen if their respective careers will bear that out ?
Bush had a good season in NOLA, but the facts are that Deuce McCalister did the heavy lifting among their running backs, not Bush.
And Marios rookie season here in Houston was more mixed, but alot of that has to with injuries. So Mario is really under the gun in his second season.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 08:59 PM
True, but you can't go on " if ". Are you gonna pass up on a sure-to-be-a-star because they might get hurt? You can't live that way.



Yeah and frickin CBS put him on this last season as some kind of expert. I like the CBS crew and would rather watch them over FOX, but having Casserly on there drove me crazy. There were several times where the guys didn't say SOME things about the Texans because of Casserly being there.

There is no such thing as a "sure-to-be-a-star", and that wasn't my point anyways. Mario was beginning to show his stuff and come around before his foot injury occurred. Had he not had an injured foot and continued to get better during the second half of the season (as VY and Bush did), we would be feeling much better about the pick atm. VY and Bush both got better as the season progressed and had very good second halves of the season. Mario looked to be headed that direction as well, and then his injury occurred. All I'm saying is I'd like to see him have a healthy season before we say he doesn't make as big of an impact as VY or RB do on their respective ball clubs.

I agree that you can't go on "if's" and if Mario perpetually battles injuries like this throughout his career then in hindsight he wasn't the best player for us to have chosen. But like you said, you can't go on if's.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 09:06 PM
If Vince Young or Reggie Bush had come down with plantar fasciitis midway through the season last year, we'd be having a different conversation right now. Mario had a disappointing year, but he was also playing with only one good foot, where as two are normally required to be a successful defensive end. Imagine if Reggie's foot hurt too badly to make his patented turn on a dime cuts, or if Vince Young was hobbled with a leg injury that relegated him to being a pocket passer. People would be questioning how much of their disappointing seasons had been injury, and how much was them just not living up to expectations.

As other have noted, the whole "We chose Mario #1 and we're STILL looking for DLine help..." is bunk. You normally only have 1 RB on the field. You normally only have one QB on the field. You normally have 4 DL on the field. Mario is one man, there are three other positions on that line, NONE of which have starters that are set in stone. Mario is solidifying his role on the line as a player who can stop the run, pass rush, and move around when needed.

It wasn't a sexy pick, and the media loves to pump up the glamour positions. Vince had a great year, but I think teams will learn to defend his ground game with time (not totally stop it, but latch it down a bit). Reggie had a good year, not great but good. He's the second best running back on that team, and I'm not sure how he'd fair as the #1 back, but we'll see. I think all three players have the POTENTIAL to be perennial pro-bowlers in the right situation.

It looks bad right now, and ESPN likes to point out "blunders" and that guys they pimp are having success. I think the Texans made a smart choice but I need to see some more proof from Mario before I can say we made the right choice. Let's wait until they've all completed healthy seasons before passing judgement on the pick.

I respect your opinion but it being bunk is totally untrue. It is the #1 pick. There is nothing else you can say about it. Yes, there are other guys on the d-line but great football teams have standout guys on both sides of the ball. When you use the #1 pick on a person you are saying he is the best person in the draft. We won 2 games, thre were no "strong points" on the team. Going for need at #1 isn't what you do. You go for the top talent. This started with the Carr signing and snowballed. There were 4 QBs and other talented guys. Unless Mario ends up being the best player int he draft 5 years from now, it will end up being considered a failure by many. I'm not saying I don't like the guy. In fact I think he will be solid. But solid and an anchor aren't what #1 is all about. Flashy or not, you need a guy who is going to be a franchise player. We luckily got him in Rd 2. We are a year later and still looking for D help while we DON'T have the playmaker..a difference maker...something readily available last year.

stingray
03-11-2007, 09:20 PM
If Vince Young or Reggie Bush had come down with plantar fasciitis midway through the season last year, we'd be having a different conversation right now. .

Yeah, and if I would have picked the winning numbers in the lottery last week i'd be a multi millionaire.

phan1
03-11-2007, 09:33 PM
I don't think the media is angry with us, it's just that we were the joke of the league and passed up on the 2 premiere players that made the most headlines. It just gets good ratings for people to trash us unfortunately. It's like making fun of Portland for passing up on Jordan. It's always good for a cheap pop, and we need to start winning (with Mario as a premiere player) so this crap can stop.

run-david-run
03-11-2007, 09:33 PM
For Casserly to automatically assume that we couldn't outscore Indy no matter what we did just proves his incompetence. Talk about a 'losing mentality'. He made a critical mistake by reaching for Mario Williams. You just don't pass up a special player like Vince or Reggie. It doesn't matter what your immediate needs are.

For example, if you're Cincinnati, New England, or any team for that matter and you have the #1 pick this year...you draft Calvin Johnson #1. It doesn't matter if you're already stacked at WR. CJ, just as Reggie and Vince were last year, is a guy that's too special of a player to pass up.

lets go over this again. VY was never considered as an option, by the Texans or by the national media. It came down to Mario vs Reggie, and frankly, Reggie has done absolutey nothing to merri the grief the media have given us. What they both were is what everyone should have expected: two very athletic youngsters who struggled to adapt to the NFL. Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team and having to do less, while Mario was the foundation of our D, and he was hurt. Basically, after the first season, it really is unclear where they stand, neither has shown Pro Bowl form, but they have both shown flashes of brilliance. How they develop over the next couple of years should affect how this draft goes down in history, not ESPN's perception of Reggie's "once in a generation" talent...JMHO

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 09:39 PM
lets go over this again. VY was never considered as an option, by the Texans or by the national media. It came down to Mario vs Reggie, and frankly, Reggie has done absolutey nothing to merri the grief the media have given us. What they both were is what everyone should have expected: two very athletic youngsters who struggled to adapt to the NFL. Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team and having to do less, while Mario was the foundation of our D, and he was hurt. Basically, after the first season, it really is unclear where they stand, neither has shown Pro Bowl form, but they have both shown flashes of brilliance. How they develop over the next couple of years should affect how this draft goes down in history, not ESPN's perception of Reggie's "once in a generation" talent...JMHO

Actually though, while going through the draft, especially Rds 1 and 2 I see Young, Leinart, Cutler, Bush, Maroney, DeAngelo, Addai, and others that had just as big an impact if not more. You gave us the reality of OUR situation but we made that situation..it is combo Carr contract/Mario that has the media laughing. That forced the hand on VY and others. It may have been Bush v. Mario because of our situation but in reality it is a #1 pick v. everyone. We made the bed.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 09:40 PM
Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team and having to do less...

2005 records

NO - 3-13
HOU - 2-14

You're exactly right, Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team BECAUSE their FRONT OFFICE (GM included) made moves to allow them to be in that position when they drafted Reggie Bush. Our FRONT OFFICE (our GM included) did not do that. Charley Casserly bears the burden of most of this catastro**** that is the Houston Texans. Bob McNair shoulders the rest because he has allowed bad decision after bad decision to be made right before his very eyes.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 09:55 PM
I respect your opinion but it being bunk is totally untrue. It is the #1 pick. There is nothing else you can say about it. Yes, there are other guys on the d-line but great football teams have standout guys on both sides of the ball. When you use the #1 pick on a person you are saying he is the best person in the draft. We won 2 games, thre were no "strong points" on the team. Going for need at #1 isn't what you do. You go for the top talent. This started with the Carr signing and snowballed. There were 4 QBs and other talented guys. Unless Mario ends up being the best player int he draft 5 years from now, it will end up being considered a failure by many. I'm not saying I don't like the guy. In fact I think he will be solid. But solid and an anchor aren't what #1 is all about. Flashy or not, you need a guy who is going to be a franchise player. We luckily got him in Rd 2. We are a year later and still looking for D help while we DON'T have the playmaker..a difference maker...something readily available last year.

I respect your opinion as well but are we talking about the same thing? I mean, you can have Orlando Pace in his prime playing LT for you, but if the rest of your OL is crap you'll still have shiesty QB protection and run blocking am I wrong? To say drafting Mario Williams should give us great DLine production all by himself when there's three other guys on that line is a similar statement? Why should you expect us to not still need DL help when the other three positions on the line do not have established producers/starters?

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 09:58 PM
I agree with much of what you said, but will have to defend Reggie to an extent. Reggie was a perfect fit FOR THE SAINTS. He probably would have gotten injured behind this OL, but he did well for the Saints. And I'm all for that because:

1) I'm from Louisiana and I love the Saints.

2). The Texans signed Mario Friday night, before the draft. Unless someone held a gun to the head of the Texans, they passed on Reggie and went with Mario. The boys didn't have a say in this. They went where the draft took them.

Can we stop going over the Mario/Reggie thing?

I don't want you to think I'm downing Reggie or anything. There was just way too much hype for him that the entire nation thought he would turn the texans around...this is a team sport and neither vince, reggie, or mario can do that.

Reggie is awesome...I'm glad we didn't draft him to an extent because we don't have the offense to allow him to do his thang...saints are a great fit because their line is better, qb is better, rb is better and they have more receiver that are threats...unlike our 1.

we need a franchise type back that can take the load every time...reggie can't do that. (not a diss...reggie can do a hell of a lot more than jerome bettis could)...my point is that Reggie's talents would have been wasted here and nobody wants to see that.

gtexan02
03-11-2007, 10:01 PM
I respect your opinion as well but are we talking about the same thing? I mean, you can have Orlando Pace in his prime playing LT for you, but if the rest of your OL is crap you'll still have shiesty QB protection and run blocking am I wrong? To say drafting Mario Williams should give us great DLine production all by himself when there's three other guys on that line is a similar statement? Why should you expect us to not still need DL help when the other three positions on the line do not have established producers/starters?

Those two things don't equate. You put Julius Peppers on a terrible DLine, he racks up 10 sacks. You put him on a great DLine, he racks up 13 or 15. Productin should be there on a DL regardless of other people.

You're trying to say that 1 player isn't going to make tohers bettesr. True. if you had Pace on a horrible OL, you'd probably still give up about 80 sacks. But how many would Pace give up? 5? 6? His INDIVIDUAL performance would still be great

You put Mario on a terrible DL, he should still be able to get 10 sacks. He fell way short.

AND our Dline isn't that bad. We had MW, Anthony Weaver, Travis Johnson, Seth Payne, Jason Babin, Antwaan Peek. All with tons of talent. Did they play great? Nope. But its just as much MW as it was the others. Everyone on our DL has lots of potential that wans't reached.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 10:01 PM
Yeah, and if I would have picked the winning numbers in the lottery last week i'd be a multi millionaire.

Intuition tells me there's a little higher odds of a football player getting injured than you winning the lottery.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 10:02 PM
I don't want you to think I'm downing Reggie or anything. There was just way too much hype for him that the entire nation thought he would turn the texans around...this is a team sport and neither vince, reggie, or mario can do that.

Reggie is awesome...I'm glad we didn't draft him to an extent because we don't have the offense to allow him to do his thang...saints are a great fit because their line is better, qb is better, rb is better and they have more receiver that are threats...unlike our 1.

we need a franchise type back that can take the load every time...reggie can't do that. (not a diss...reggie can do a hell of a lot more than jerome bettis could)...my point is that Reggie's talents would have been wasted here and nobody wants to see that.

I don't think they would have been wasted. Reggie could have stepped in San Diego and been successful alongside LT. He's not an NFL RB. Heck, Maurice Jones-Drew will end his career with more rushing yards than Reggie Bush. The thing about Reggie, he's so versatile and can turn a 3 yard loss into a 55 yard gain in the blink of an eye.

I just feel sorry for Kubiak, having to sit through that draft in the war room listening to all the boo's for the guy he didn't even want in the first place.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 10:03 PM
I respect your opinion as well but are we talking about the same thing? I mean, you can have Orlando Pace in his prime playing LT for you, but if the rest of your OL is crap you'll still have shiesty QB protection and run blocking am I wrong? To say drafting Mario Williams should give us great DLine production all by himself when there's three other guys on that line is a similar statement? Why should you expect us to not still need DL help when the other three positions on the line do not have established producers/starters?


I understand your logic completely and I didn't expect Mario to turn the line into world beaters. I guess from my perspective we had drafted Johnson already and had holes at basically every position. I really liked Mario and wanted to move down and see if we could get him. I was a tiny bit weary because of some of the knocks I had heard..taking plays off, etc. I think overall though that last years draft was heavy in offensive talent and we lacked a home run guy. We had AJ but we didn't have a game changer. Considering the amount of guys that were there, especially with the #1 pick, I think we reached for need compared to more talented guy. Again, nothing on Mario, and I understand your stance. I just think you look at it, as a franchise, as you need everything and you need to take someone who can turn the tide. I'm not sure he is that guy. The #1 pick should be a world beater, not a guy who ends up just being an anchor or consistent guy. I look at the Merrimans(sans steroid jokes) and Peppers and think #1 should make that difference. JMO.

stingray
03-11-2007, 10:05 PM
Intuition tells me there's a little higher odds of a football player getting injured than you winning the lottery.

My point is THAT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN,So if it didn't happen it doesn't matter.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 10:07 PM
Those two things don't equate. You put Julius Peppers on a terrible DLine, he racks up 10 sacks. You put him on a great DLine, he racks up 13 or 15. Productin should be there on a DL regardless of other people.

You're trying to say that 1 player isn't going to make tohers bettesr. True. if you had Pace on a horrible OL, you'd probably still give up about 80 sacks. But how many would Pace give up? 5? 6? His INDIVIDUAL performance would still be great

You put Mario on a terrible DL, he should still be able to get 10 sacks. He fell way short.

AND our Dline isn't that bad. We had MW, Anthony Weaver, Travis Johnson, Seth Payne, Jason Babin, Antwaan Peek. All with tons of talent. Did they play great? Nope. But its just as much MW as it was the others. Everyone on our DL has lots of potential that wans't reached.

I agree it's not a perfect analogy, but it's better than what you're making it out to be. Sacks aren't purely INDIVIDUAL efforts, they are collective. The safety blitz drives the QB into a DL's arms, the DLineman gets the individual statistic, but the safety caused the play. The Texans have always had an anemic pass rush, and without that synergistic element in place to help Mario I don't think you can measure his production by sacks. And our DL IS that bad. None of those players you mentioned have proved their pass rushing ability with honest to god production. Seth Payne is more of a run stopper, Travis Johnson has been a bust so far, Antwaan Peek showed a handful of flashes over a span of years, and Jason Babin is a one trick pony who hasn't made an enormous impact either. Anthony Weaver was never known as a great pass rusher, even in his days in Baltimore.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 10:08 PM
My point is THAT IT DIDN'T HAPPEN,So if it didn't happen it doesn't matter.

That's deep.

AGGIEZ
03-11-2007, 10:09 PM
Stupor Mario was the WRONG choice! The fact that we're looking for a pass rusher the year after we drafted a pass rusher at #1 should tell you that.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 10:14 PM
Stupor Mario was the WRONG choice! The fact that we're looking for a pass rusher the year after we drafted a pass rusher at #1 should tell you that.

Well, last time I checked, 2 pass rushers was better than one.

What if our draft went like this:

1st - Gaines Adams DE Clemson
2nd - Victor Abiamiri DE Notre Dame
3rd- Ray McDonald DE Florida
4th - Brandon Mebane DT California
5th - Dan Bazuin DE Central Michigan
6th - Jacob Ford DE Central Arkansas
7th - Conrad Bolston DT Maryland

We're sure to find some winners out of that bunch.

Jimpster
03-11-2007, 10:14 PM
We made no mistake. Our issue is in the secondary, we knew that after last year's draft. We lost our two DT's to injuries and that did not help. Mario is as much as a game breaker as Bush and Young, just more subtle due to the nature of the positions.

What? We made no mistake? Dude, come out from under Kub's desk and listen to what the whole NFL and the National sports media had to say. Picking Mario over VY or RB was the biggest bonehead draft mistake since Portland picked Sam Bowie over MJ. Might as well get used to bonehead draft picks as long Aggieak is HC and might as well get used to homers trying to justify his decisions. Mario didn't do squat. Period! 4.5 sacks. Two of those were gimmies. The QB's slipped and were flat on their backs. Kubs reasoning for drafting Mario was to put pressure on Manning. Did you see Mario run down and tackle a single player last year? I sure didn't. Mario could run down Payton's grandmother. Did you see VY blow right past Mario for the OT win? I did. VY and RB are play makers and had an impact on their respective teams. Mario's play was average if that much. Certainly not worth waisting a number on draft pick on.

bigbrewster2000
03-11-2007, 10:15 PM
2005 records

NO - 3-13
HOU - 2-14

You're exactly right, Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team BECAUSE their FRONT OFFICE (GM included) made moves to allow them to be in that position when they drafted Reggie Bush. Our FRONT OFFICE (our GM included) did not do that. Charley Casserly bears the burden of most of this catastro**** that is the Houston Texans. Bob McNair shoulders the rest because he has allowed bad decision after bad decision to be made right before his very eyes.

the saints also played no home games the year before greatly contributing to their record in 05. And why continue bringing up the inadeqacies of our FORMER front office. And lets talk about the 06 draft in 09 when all of these kids mature into who they are going to be. And TJ has nothing to do with Mario so don't lumpthem together in thesame conversation.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 10:16 PM
What? We made no mistake? Dude, come out from under Kub's desk and listen to what the whole NFL and the National sports media had to say. Picking Mario over VY or RB was the biggest bonehead draft mistake since Portland picked Sam Bowie over MJ. Might as well get used to bonehead draft picks as long Aggieak is HC and might as well get used to homers trying to justify his decisions. Mario didn't do squat. Period! 4.5 sacks. Two of those were gimmies. The QB's slipped and were flat on their backs. Kubs reasoning for drafting Mario was to put pressure on Manning. Did you see Mario run down and tackle a single player last year? I sure didn't. Mario could run down Payton's grandmother. Did you see VY blow right past Mario for the OT win? I did. VY and RB are play makers and had an impact on their respective teams. Mario's play was average if that much. Certainly not worth waisting a number on draft pick on.

In response to your signature, Gary had nothing to do with the selection of Mario Williams.

blockhead83
03-11-2007, 10:16 PM
I understand your logic completely and I didn't expect Mario to turn the line into world beaters. I guess from my perspective we had drafted Johnson already and had holes at basically every position. I really liked Mario and wanted to move down and see if we could get him. I was a tiny bit weary because of some of the knocks I had heard..taking plays off, etc. I think overall though that last years draft was heavy in offensive talent and we lacked a home run guy. We had AJ but we didn't have a game changer. Considering the amount of guys that were there, especially with the #1 pick, I think we reached for need compared to more talented guy. Again, nothing on Mario, and I understand your stance. I just think you look at it, as a franchise, as you need everything and you need to take someone who can turn the tide. I'm not sure he is that guy. The #1 pick should be a world beater, not a guy who ends up just being an anchor or consistent guy. I look at the Merrimans(sans steroid jokes) and Peppers and think #1 should make that difference. JMO.

I was strictly saying with you that it's not very telling as far as Mario goes that we still need DL help, it's a group position, not individual.

I'm with you on most of the rest of that, with some caveats. I'm a Texans homer, so give me a little slack because you're right, Mario didn't show any stuff like Merriman or Peppers have. On the other hand, Mario plays on a defense that had consistently been piss poor at pressuring the QB, and was coming off a terrible season whereas Peppers and Merriman have played on some stout defenses. On an individual level, Mario was starting to look pretty good, especially in the Miami and Giants games, but then his play fell off in the latter half of the season with his injury. He's only 21 and the guy is truly an athletic freak, give him a full healthy season if luck allows him to muster one and see if he can provide those streaks with some consistency. Each one of the top 3 prospects had knocks on them, so Mario's concerns with motor and such can be matched with VY's knocks on his throwing motion and Bush's knocks on his durability. Mario's pre-draft doubts can't be pointed out in the context of, "Look, he had something wrong while the other 2 were perfect; Why'd we choose him?"

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 10:18 PM
the saints also played no home games the year before greatly contributing to their record in 05. And why continue bringing up the inadeqacies of our FORMER front office. And lets talk about the 06 draft in 09 when all of these kids mature into who they are going to be. And TJ has nothing to do with Mario so don't lumpthem together in thesame conversation.

TJ who? did i miss something? i bring up the inadequecies of our former FO because they are the ones responsible for the current state we're in right now. just because they left doesn't mean that their crap isn't lingering around. they just passed the mess onto another group of guys.

Navy_Chris
03-11-2007, 10:21 PM
Kubiak better hit this first round on the head, or he's gonna be looking for a new job in 3 to 4 years. That's according to ESPN, not me.

I agree that he better hit this one on the head, but I don't think we're talking job security anytime soon. He's a good football coach, ESPN needs to lay off the negativity when it comes to the Texans. Although, many of the things they say are correct when they do speak about us.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 10:21 PM
I see what your getting at gtexan...i kinda misread it.

I'd say, yes for the year reggie and vince did better than mario.

I do think Mario really helped our team out a lot...he was our most dominant dlineman..hands down. moreso than weaver...johnson..maddox...etc.

It's unfair to compare mario with vince and reggie to an extent tough. All ESPN does is show highlights, stats, and box score. and all every other writer in america does is watch espn.

The DE position is judged for the most part on 1 stat and that is sacks. There is also tackles...forced fumbles...fumble recoveries that are calculated but Sacks is viewed foremost and then tackles..that's about it. They don't calculate QB hurries ...they don't talk about tipped passes, etc.

Vince and Reggie coming from the offensive side of the ball can be looked at better by the box score. TD's, Yards, INT's, Fumbles...etc. It's a lot easier to compare/view those stats.

The media only reports on what happened over the weekend, what happend during the year...and what they think is about to happen. They base their opinions...whether someone succeeded or failed on the short term. Otherwise they wouldn't have a job. Writers and ESPN analysts are looked at only at who they said would win the game...or who would have the better season. They get short term benifits/gratification.

All the media guys would be out of a job if they talked much about the long term side of a player or team. It would probably be wrong that first year and nobody would listen to them or say haha you were wrong.

It's the nature of the business...they are doing what the should be doing. Plus it's a lot more fun to watch Vince scramble for the TD or REggie do his thing on highlights than Mario or any d-lineman do anything. It's usually a 4 second clip of them getting a sack and thats it, its over. Defense is only 'fun' to watch on highlights when its a big hit .."jacked up" or an interception taken to the house for a TD. the QB and RB get a lot more carries/touches during the game and they usually show the 5 good plays they had out of the 30 touches or so.

gtexan02
03-11-2007, 10:22 PM
I see what your getting at gtexan...i kinda misread it.

I'd say, yes for the year reggie and vince did better than mario.

I do think Mario really helped our team out a lot...he was our most dominant dlineman..hands down. moreso than weaver...johnson..maddox...etc.

It's unfair to compare mario with vince and reggie to an extent tough. All ESPN does is show highlights, stats, and box score. and all every other writer in america does is watch espn.

The DE position is judged for the most part on 1 stat and that is sacks. There is also tackles...forced fumbles...fumble recoveries that are calculated but Sacks is viewed foremost and then tackles..that's about it. They don't calculate QB hurries ...they don't talk about tipped passes, etc.

Vince and Reggie coming from the offensive side of the ball can be looked at better by the box score. TD's, Yards, INT's, Fumbles...etc. It's a lot easier to compare/view those stats.

The media only reports on what happened over the weekend, what happend during the year...and what they think is about to happen. They base their opinions...whether someone succeeded or failed on the short term. Otherwise they wouldn't have a job. Writers and ESPN analysts are looked at only at who they said would win the game...or who would have the better season. They get short term benifits/gratification.

All the media guys would be out of a job if they talked much about the long term side of a player or team. It would probably be wrong that first year and nobody would listen to them or say haha you were wrong.

It's the nature of the business...they are doing what the should be doing. Plus it's a lot more fun to watch Vince scramble for the TD or REggie do his thing on highlights than Mario or any d-lineman do anything. It's usually a 4 second clip of them getting a sack and thats it, its over. Defense is only 'fun' to watch on highlights when its a big hit .."jacked up" or an interception taken to the house for a TD. the QB and RB get a lot more carries/touches during the game and they usually show the 5 good plays they had out of the 30 touches or so.

good points, i agree

Jimpster
03-11-2007, 10:25 PM
It was totally Kub's decision. In regards to Bob McNair, who do you think he would have listened to? A GM on his way out or his just hired HC. Bob would have given Aggiak the moon if he asked for it, and that's exactly what happened.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 10:25 PM
Kubiak better hit this first round on the head, or he's gonna be looking for a new job in 3 to 4 years. That's according to ESPN, not me.

I agree that he better hit this one on the head, but I don't think we're talking job security anytime soon. He's a good football coach, ESPN needs to lay off the negativity when it comes to the Texans. Although, many of the things they say are correct when they do speak about us.

If Capers and Casserly were given 4 years to screw this up....McNair is going to give Kubiak and Smith longer to fix it. They don't have the luxury of extra draft picks and getting FA's that we got when we were a new expansion team and we have to deal with all the dead money and horrible contracts the old regime gave out...meaning we have less cap to use on FA's that would help this team out.

McNair is going to give Kubiak and Smith probably 2 years...last season and this season...the wrinkle out most of the kinks. Then it will be a clean slate and he'll say you better produce. so i say 4 years on top of that...and that makes 6. this is pure speculation on my point..but McNair has got to give them some time to get rid of the stuff that's hurting us like very high unwarranted salaries and dead money that isn't helping us at all.

bigbrewster2000
03-11-2007, 10:26 PM
Did you see Mario run down and tackle a single player last year? I sure didn't. Mario could run down Payton's grandmother. Did you see VY blow right past Mario for the OT win? I did.

So what you are saying is that you only watched the Texans games last year when they played the Titans then? Mario made plays last season including in one of those 2 games you watched where he ran VY down from behind, not just his grandmother. The longhorn forum is on a different web site stop hating on folks for being non longhorns. Your delivery needs some work.

Pantherstang84
03-11-2007, 10:28 PM
What? We made no mistake? Dude, come out from under Kub's desk and listen to what the whole NFL and the National sports media had to say. Picking Mario over VY or RB was the biggest bonehead draft mistake since Portland picked Sam Bowie over MJ. Might as well get used to bonehead draft picks as long Aggieak is HC and might as well get used to homers trying to justify his decisions. Mario didn't do squat. Period! 4.5 sacks. Two of those were gimmies. The QB's slipped and were flat on their backs. Kubs reasoning for drafting Mario was to put pressure on Manning. Did you see Mario run down and tackle a single player last year? I sure didn't. Mario could run down Payton's grandmother. Did you see VY blow right past Mario for the OT win? I did. VY and RB are play makers and had an impact on their respective teams. Mario's play was average if that much. Certainly not worth waisting a number on draft pick on.

Whoa! You need to dial your burnt orange filter down just a smidge there.:confused:

BTW...If the blowhards in the media are so smart, how come they don't coach or work in player personnel offices? Hmmm?

mexican_texan
03-11-2007, 10:31 PM
It was totally Kub's decision. In regards to Bob McNair, who do you think he would have listened to? A GM on his way out or his just hired HC. Bob would have given Aggiak the moon if he asked for it, and that's exactly what happened.
Would an offensive head coach pass up all that talent for a defensive end? His being an Aggie should mean nothing.

Jimpster
03-11-2007, 10:31 PM
So what you are saying is that you only watched the Texans games last year when they played the Titans then? Mario made plays last season including in one of those 2 games you watched where he ran VY down from behind, not just his grandmother. The longhorn forum is on a different web site stop hating on folks for being non longhorns. Your delivery needs some work.

No, what I said was Mario never ran down a single player. I did see him make tackles, but never from running someone down from behind. One of Kub's selling points for choosing Mario was the he was supposed to be fast. I didn't see any great speed. Like I said, certainly not worth a first draft pick.

bigbrewster2000
03-11-2007, 10:32 PM
TJ who? did i miss something? i bring up the inadequecies of our former FO because they are the ones responsible for the current state we're in right now. just because they left doesn't mean that their crap isn't lingering around. they just passed the mess onto another group of guys.

I was refering to another post of yours refering to another one of mine but the main point is what is the point of speaking of the former regime when our new one is obviously leaps and bounds better. We can see it in the moves that they have been making since Rick Smith took over.

bigbrewster2000
03-11-2007, 10:35 PM
No, what I said was Mario never ran down a single player. I did see him make tackles, but never from running someone down from behind. One of Kub's selling points for choosing Mario was the he was supposed to be fast. I didn't see any great speed. Like I said, certainly not worth a first draft pick.

HE RAN DOWN VY FROM BEHIND FOR A SACK IN THEIR FIRST MEETING. Oh how quick we all forget when we have an agenda. And Mario made several plays on the backside in games. You give the kid too little credit.

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 10:37 PM
The Rockets also passed on Michael Jordan too. We drafted Olajowan #1 overall and the bulls took MJ at #3.

Thats not talked about very much because Olajowan had a great career...he was the big defender we needed...i guess he was kinda hometown though huh?

Hopefully the Saints will be made fun of for taking Bush when the could have had Vince. The Texans won't be talked about much passing him at that point because Mario will be the dominant defender like Hakeem was. (too bad vince was from houston though.)


I also find it funny how ESPN always criticized us for passing reggie..we passed on reggie...and really not much at all about Vince (skip from cold pizza was pro vince for us). But when they saw vince doing so well...for a long time I RARELY heard them say ANYTHING about Bush, and it was all omg Houston passed on vince to take mario...they remind me of...well let's not get into a political debate....but the keep "flip flopping" their views.

Jimpster
03-11-2007, 10:37 PM
[QUOTE=Pantherstang84;623863]Whoa! You need to dial your burnt orange filter down just a smidge there.:confused:

/QUOTE]


Touche

Jimpster
03-11-2007, 10:40 PM
The Rockets also passed on Michael Jordan too. We drafted Olajowan #1 overall and the bulls took MJ at #3.

Thats not talked about very much because Olajowan had a great career...he was the big defender we needed...i guess he was kinda hometown though huh?

Hopefully the Saints will be made fun of for taking Bush when the could have had Vince. The Texans won't be talked about much passing him at that point because Mario will be the dominant defender like Hakeem was. (too bad vince was from houston though.)


I also find it funny how ESPN always criticized us for passing reggie..we passed on reggie...and really not much at all about Vince (skip from cold pizza was pro vince for us). But when they saw vince doing so well...for a long time I RARELY heard them say ANYTHING about Bush, and it was all omg Houston passed on vince to take mario...they remind me of...well let's not get into a political debate....but the keep "flip flopping" their views.

And if we had to do it over, I'd still pick Olajowan first!

Ole Miss Texan
03-11-2007, 10:48 PM
HE RAN DOWN VY FROM BEHIND FOR A SACK IN THEIR FIRST MEETING. Oh how quick we all forget when we have an agenda. And Mario made several plays on the backside in games. You give the kid too little credit.

I was just about to write that, yup definitly ran down VY from behind for a sack.

I also remember seeing Mario all over the field...he may not have always gotten the tackle...but on dvr i rewound ..sp? it many times to watch Mario during the play, what his reactions/instincts were , and how he corrected himself (i do this with Patrick Willis too..who's awesome.) Watch the actual game closely or rewind it and watch and you will see that Mario is all over that field...dude is gonna be good.

If you don't know he's the tallest/biggest guy out there and wear's a #90 jersey.

The Pencil Neck
03-11-2007, 10:48 PM
2005 records

NO - 3-13
HOU - 2-14

You're exactly right, Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team BECAUSE their FRONT OFFICE (GM included) made moves to allow them to be in that position when they drafted Reggie Bush. Our FRONT OFFICE (our GM included) did not do that. Charley Casserly bears the burden of most of this catastro**** that is the Houston Texans. Bob McNair shoulders the rest because he has allowed bad decision after bad decision to be made right before his very eyes.

Before you start comparing records like that, remember that those are the Katrina Saints who basically played the entire season on the road. That was a talented team with a history of underperforming and poor play from the QB position. The Saints FO did a great job of getting Brees but the Dolphin's FO made the mistake of passing on him for Culpepper. They already had a great back with McAllister who had missed all but 5 games in 2005. That 3-13 was really a very deceptive record. They were a good team with a bad record.

OTOH, we were really just a bad team.

threetoedpete
03-11-2007, 11:21 PM
Long post but if you want to simplify it:

Last year was laoded with "game breakers" on offense...franchise guys

We went defensive line to put pressure on the teams in our division

A year later we still have no playmakers and are still looking to d-line and defensive help in the draft.

Oops

No simplified....they tried untill that thrusday to move the pick. No one would spend the diferential of their one and what it would take with their pick to move up. So everone in the NFL determined that they could stand pat and get value where they were. No one wanted to spend draft capitol to move up to take anyone on the top of the board. No one wanted to over pay for anyone ....anyone.

Secondly, that wensday befor the draft, the Bush "free rent" story broke. The front office asked him about that...and didn't like the answer(s) they got out of him. That coupled with the fact, they didn't hear from him on the original phone call for more than a little while. Was it a dodge ?

I don't believe Vincent, based on his passing mechnics was ever a consideration here. Carr under contract or not, they're not going to come out and say "Vincent mechanics sux. We ain't taking him even if he is there in the second. " But that's basically what I infered. I think a lot of home town folks are getting whipped up over something that was never going to be.

Was the misjudgement on DC a terrible mistake ? I guess so. BOTOH, DD/DW looked great at the first summer pratice. No one knew at the time Spencer was going to go down in the second game . Or, that that would be the last act of the one legged man, Dominic Williams, after that first practice. Easy to Monday morning QB with little pieces missing. Mario looks prety ordinary playing on one foot. And if the condition is cronic...yep alot of folks can point and say see I told you so. But if the injury isn't cronic, if he is the real deal and not the "work out warrior" some on the board have made him out to be, it was an outstanding draft for us. Just have to be patient and see how it all plays out. One thing for sure, we're certainly under every body's radar. Unless they reach for a clip board carrier, ought to come out of day one with three true starters.

HoustonFrog
03-11-2007, 11:22 PM
I was strictly saying with you that it's not very telling as far as Mario goes that we still need DL help, it's a group position, not individual.

I'm with you on most of the rest of that, with some caveats. I'm a Texans homer, so give me a little slack because you're right, Mario didn't show any stuff like Merriman or Peppers have. On the other hand, Mario plays on a defense that had consistently been piss poor at pressuring the QB, and was coming off a terrible season whereas Peppers and Merriman have played on some stout defenses. On an individual level, Mario was starting to look pretty good, especially in the Miami and Giants games, but then his play fell off in the latter half of the season with his injury. He's only 21 and the guy is truly an athletic freak, give him a full healthy season if luck allows him to muster one and see if he can provide those streaks with some consistency. Each one of the top 3 prospects had knocks on them, so Mario's concerns with motor and such can be matched with VY's knocks on his throwing motion and Bush's knocks on his durability. Mario's pre-draft doubts can't be pointed out in the context of, "Look, he had something wrong while the other 2 were perfect; Why'd we choose him?"

Again, good points and totally respectable. I think it all comes down to a difference in perspective on the thing. Overall though I'm not sitting here with my toe on the trigger acting like we made the worst mistake ever. I just think it was the wrong year for the pick. I think we are semi-cornered now and we have to make some reaches or at least try and hit the homerun we missed. Maybe I'm jaded because of earlier GM picks but I look at Mario as a potential Greg Ellis type guy, steady, yet unspectacular, and I cross my fingers and hope that I'm completely wrong. If I am, it is a good thing.

threetoedpete
03-11-2007, 11:39 PM
There is no such thing as a "sure-to-be-a-star", and that wasn't my point anyways. Mario was beginning to show his stuff and come around before his foot injury occurred. Had he not had an injured foot and continued to get better during the second half of the season (as VY and Bush did), we would be feeling much better about the pick atm. VY and Bush both got better as the season progressed and had very good second halves of the season. Mario looked to be headed that direction as well, and then his injury occurred. All I'm saying is I'd like to see him have a healthy season before we say he doesn't make as big of an impact as VY or RB do on their respective ball clubs.

I agree that you can't go on "if's" and if Mario perpetually battles injuries like this throughout his career then in hindsight he wasn't the best player for us to have chosen. But like you said, you can't go on if's.

Agreed: Mario's hands play, getting the o-line guy off his body, improved every game. He gets the foot well, we pick up some tallent on the other DE, I think all of this would of, should of, could of talk will melt away. The first time he sacks Vincent hard...that'll be the end of it.

DarkNinja
03-12-2007, 12:07 AM
Reggie walked onto a 3-13 team. We were 2-14. What?

VY walked onto a 4-12 team. We were 2-14. What? Vince singlehandedly turned that team around, got Jeff Fisher a contract extension, and got them 1 game from the playoffs.

Well said....:elmo:

Navy_Chris
03-12-2007, 12:10 AM
Well said....:elmo:

:confused:

TexansSB07
03-12-2007, 12:34 AM
Um, because they were right? We had 3 great QB's we could have picked.

what 3 QBs would that be


Vince Young...still too many NFL experts saying if he is made to win by throwing, he won't get it done (Titans also threw out offensive system and put in offense that favors Young...gee didn't Longhorns do same thing "Longhorns have cut playbook in half and cut down reads as Vince Young is unable to comprehend too much")

Matt Leinert what exactly did he do that was so great as a QB (he had Edgerrin James at RB, Antaquin Bolden and Larry Fitgerald at WR). don't recall him setting woods on fire

Jay Cutler, Shanahan went to him because at point they made change Denver was pretty much not going to make postseason. So they decided to see what they had in a QB for the future.

Let's try and keep the hyperbole under 60, or you might be ticketed for reckless conjecture

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2007, 12:40 AM
what 3 QBs would that be


Vince Young...still too many NFL experts saying if he is made to win by throwing, he won't get it done (Titans also threw out offensive system and put in offense that favors Young...gee didn't Longhorns do same thing "Longhorns have cut playbook in half and cut down reads as Vince Young is unable to comprehend too much")

Matt Leinert what exactly did he do that was so great as a QB (he had Edgerrin James at RB, Antaquin Bolden and Larry Fitgerald at WR). don't recall him setting woods on fire

Jay Cutler, Shanahan went to him because at point they made change Denver was pretty much not going to make postseason. So they decided to see what they had in a QB for the future.

Let's try and keep the hyperbole under 60, or you might be ticketed for reckless conjecture

Vince- Sure seemed to work good at UT with that national championship and all. Tenn. also looked halway decent because of vince and their defense. But we'll see if the titans keep growing or become stagnat as vince can't "learn anything new"

The problem in arizona is their horrendous offensive line...it may be worse than ours....Leinart isn't the problem.

If I may recall correctly Denver was very much in the race for the playoffs when Shanahan decided to go with cutler. Putting in a rookie when you're still in the race!?....what says more to me is him benching plummer to start a rookie in that situation.

mexican_texan
03-12-2007, 12:41 AM
what 3 QBs would that be


Vince Young...still too many NFL experts saying if he is made to win by throwing, he won't get it done (Titans also threw out offensive system and put in offense that favors Young...gee didn't Longhorns do same thing "Longhorns have cut playbook in half and cut down reads as Vince Young is unable to comprehend too much")

Matt Leinert what exactly did he do that was so great as a QB (he had Edgerrin James at RB, Antaquin Bolden and Larry Fitgerald at WR). don't recall him setting woods on fire

Jay Cutler, Shanahan went to him because at point they made change Denver was pretty much not going to make postseason. So they decided to see what they had in a QB for the future.

Let's try and keep the hyperbole under 60, or you might be ticketed for reckless conjecture
Leinart had a 400 yard game behind an atrocious O-Line.

Cutler started at a point where the Broncos were en route to the postseason, but they wouldn't have done much with the Snake at QB, so Shanahan decided that he may as well go through Cutler's growing pains if they were likely to lose in the first round of the playoffs. I think.

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2007, 12:45 AM
Leinart had a 400 yard game behind an atrocious O-Line.

Cutler started at a point where the Broncos were en route to the postseason, but they wouldn't have done much with the Snake at QB, so Shanahan decided that he may as well go through Cutler's growing pains if they were likely to lose in the first round of the playoffs. I think.

And we wanted plummer.

Navy_Chris
03-12-2007, 12:47 AM
And we wanted plummer.

I went for 216 yards and 3 TDs a few hours ago on Madden....with Chris Taylor. That has to be a sign of things to come, right?

blockhead83
03-12-2007, 12:49 AM
Again, good points and totally respectable. I think it all comes down to a difference in perspective on the thing. Overall though I'm not sitting here with my toe on the trigger acting like we made the worst mistake ever. I just think it was the wrong year for the pick. I think we are semi-cornered now and we have to make some reaches or at least try and hit the homerun we missed. Maybe I'm jaded because of earlier GM picks but I look at Mario as a potential Greg Ellis type guy, steady, yet unspectacular, and I cross my fingers and hope that I'm completely wrong. If I am, it is a good thing.

I see your side as well, I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that this doesn't bite us in the a**. I think Mario was the best defensive player in last year's draft, and this year's draft, but the problem with our decision lies on the offensive side of the ball. Kubiak is clamoring for "playmakers" a year after we pass on RB and VY. Somewhat ironic, and if we don't find some playmakers by next season it's going to become a really sensitive subject. On the flip side, regardless of how Mario does, if Kubiak and some personnel moves can finally ignite this offense then passing on VY and RB will become much more forgettable.

DocBar
03-12-2007, 01:09 AM
Stupor Mario was the WRONG choice! The fact that we're looking for a pass rusher the year after we drafted a pass rusher at #1 should tell you that.
I sure do miss the negative rep when I see posts like this.

DocBar
03-12-2007, 01:11 AM
And we wanted plummer.

No... WE didn't want Plummer. Some posters on here wanted him. I woud swear off football until he was gone if we had traded for him. Well....msybe not totally...

run-david-run
03-12-2007, 01:59 AM
2005 records

NO - 3-13
HOU - 2-14

You're exactly right, Reggie had the advantage of being on a better team BECAUSE their FRONT OFFICE (GM included) made moves to allow them to be in that position when they drafted Reggie Bush. Our FRONT OFFICE (our GM included) did not do that. Charley Casserly bears the burden of most of this catastro**** that is the Houston Texans. Bob McNair shoulders the rest because he has allowed bad decision after bad decision to be made right before his very eyes.

They were underachieving at 8-8 the year before Katrina. The talent and the support was there for the Saints. Adding a new coach, better QB and all the goodwill in the league (plus a weak conference) and there is now way you can claim that Mario's situation was as good as Reggies.

Scooter
03-12-2007, 04:21 AM
Maybe it was because their run defense at the time we played them. Could it be because Ron Dayne tortured their D? I mean, DC wasn't even in the gameplan that day.

Very weak argument.

i didnt bother to read many posts after this one so if i missed an arguement, forgive me.

are you friggin serious? did you bother to watch the game? that "worst pick ever" strips the ball, we recover inside indy's redzone after being up 7-0 on the opening drive and we're able to make another easy score ... 14-0. what happens with a lead? WE'RE ABLE TO RUN THE BALL! we lean on dayne BECAUSE of mario. mario then (as usual) is a major factor in the run game. dayne didnt do any more to indy than he did against everyone else in the final four games (behind leach) except get more opportunities. again, why did he get those opportunities? because of mario's forced fumble and his run defense, we were able to ground indy's juggernaut to a managable 24 points. 7 that we put up were directly tied to mario and since we only won by 3, how about you give him the gameball.

just to cover posts i assumed happened. mario also won the miami game with his tipped pass. so dont argue reggie's super duper kick return, or vince's overtime run to beat unfortunately the texans.


in hindsight, i give vince a more realistic look ... but even in hindsight, i take mario first. bush was not, is not, and wont be on my radar. vince only gets consideration because of the way carr performed last season ... much like kubiak, i though we were "well enough" at quarterback going into the season.

South Texan
03-12-2007, 08:19 AM
I got the impression that Kubiak was stuck with Carr before he got here and knew that up front. Wether it was Cassely's influence on McNair, or McNair was still a Carr believer and thought Kubiack could turn him around like he did with Plummer, that's just the way it was. For whatever reason I doubt VY was ever really considered as the #1 pick.

The "Kubiak System" does not call for an explosive RB, just a consistant group of downhill runners with a good O-Line. We didn't have either last year, especially with DD/DW not making it back. As far as Bush, I don't think anyone would argue he is an excellent player, but they had a QB step up last year, McAllister in the backfield, and I don't think you can give all the credit to Reggie for their turn around last year. As far as any of the press saying Reggie was the reason, I think that was CYA so they could slam Houston for passing on him. On a side note, I was really glad that NO had the success they did, if ever a city needed something to cheer about it was them.

I still think Mario was the best player available to fill one of our biggest holes. He has to start the season with his toenails removed. OUCH. He is under tremendous mental pressure not only because of being the #1 pick, but also who they passed on to get him and IMO was trying too hard early on instead of just playing football. The secondary is letting receivers get open quickly, not giving the D-Line the extra second to get to the QB. Mario just starts to get past that and gets injured but still does a decent job the rest of the year. (A guy I work with had the same injury, and the Dr. put him in a wheelchair for 3 weeks to let him rest his foot.)

My rather long winded point is that we really don't know what we have in Mario yet, and for the press to harp on what a bad choice we made until Mario has a decent chance is at best, self serving.

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 09:30 AM
Reggie walked onto a 3-13 team. We were 2-14. What?

VY walked onto a 4-12 team. We were 2-14. What? Vince singlehandedly turned that team around, got Jeff Fisher a contract extension, and got them 1 game from the playoffs.

I know I'm getting into this way late, but Chris, you're being stupid. The Saints Record was 3-13 due to the fact that they were living in Hotel Rooms, and playing in the Meadowlands for their first home game, while their friends & family were homeless. The New Orleans Saints were a much better team than 3-13, and they proved that this year.

& the big impact player was Drew Brees & Marquez Coslton was a close #2. A healthy Duece McAllister, and a never ending supply of step up recievers... of which Reggie was only one.

But back to the topic of this thread in General. I don't understand why Mario would get any slack for what he did in '06. I think he did very well, and was exactly what we thought he was going to be. Even though he led his team in sacks, we drafted him knowing that he wasn't a sack artist/specialist. But was in fact a complete defensive end. His game(if you go back and watch him at NCState) is stopping the run, and causing Havoc... & he will pick up a ton of sacks along the way.

This year, we screwed up, trying to make him a sack specialist(ala I only play on 3rd down Dwight Freeney). Early in the year, we almost ignored the run, and tried to pressure the QB on first, second & third down, and we got our buts whupped.

Miami, Dallas, Jacksonville, & Tennessee we focused on stopping the run, and we weren't only in games, but we won 2 of 4... should have won 3 (if a certain somebody hadn't had a bad case of fumblitis), and we really should have beat Dallas as well.

Ronnie Brown ran for 49 yards.... he avg'd 77 yards per game. Miami ran for 104 ypg, but only ran for 70yards that day.

Dallas avg's 121 ypg... we allowed 170. but if you watched the game, you'd have seen that we managed their running game pretty well in the first half, before all hell broke loose in the second half.

Jacksonville rushed for 158 ypg... they were third in the league. We held them to 102. Maurice Jones Drew did not have a highlight day at Reliant.

Tennessee's Leading Rusher(in the Nashville game) was their QB with 44 yards. Travis Who?? ran for 29 yards on 15 carries... Lendale White had a better game.

The New York Giants avg 134 ypg. We held them to 122... we lost this game, because our offense couldn't score 14 points...

14 points.

we then held Jacksonville to 118, Buffalo to 70, The Jets to 27, Raiders 113.

I think we focused more on Vince at Reliant than we should have, and that bit us in the arse.

But for the most part, Mario did what he was supposed to do. Plantir Fasciatus(sp) or not. Too many people want to focus on sacks, and those numbers are going to get better in the years to come, but Mario is a complete Defensive End, and well worth the #1 overall.

Scooter
03-12-2007, 09:54 AM
I know I'm getting into this way late, but Chris, you're being stupid.

Too many people want to focus on sacks, and those numbers are going to get better in the years to come, but Mario is a complete Defensive End, and well worth the #1 overall.

quoted for effect.

where mario has been and will always go unnoticed is his impact which have no statistical value. i want to say that it was against the giants but i honestly cant remember which game ... the opposing team ran 3 times to mario's side for 4 yards. those numbers will never get the respect they deserve until mario reaches lawrence taylor or bruce smith status. mario came into the league as an underage premiere run stuffer on a bum foot ... to think he cant become a pass rusher is ludicrous. even as a rookie he lead the team with 5.5 sacks in limited playing time with little line help. we're in for a treat in the next few years, and a whole lot of "i told you so"'s.

jerek
03-12-2007, 10:05 AM
Just like Reggie was a bust for the Saints, right?

Actually when compared to others players making his same money, yes, he is IMO a big bust in terms of production or ROI if you will. I don't understand why this is hard to see. With only 9 TDs on the year and excluding his 4 TD game against the lowly 49ers, Reggie was good for a whopping 5 TDs across 15 games, including 1 of those at PR. Taking into account the Saints weak schedule and very respectable cast of supporting playmakers (Brees, McAllister, Colston, and even the aging Horn), this performance is even less impressive.

Now Vince Young surprised me this year and whether or not he will continue to improve and play at a high level remains to be seen, but Reggie Bush had about the kind of totally unspectacular rookie year I was expecting out of him. He will never be anything more than a Brian Westbrook--not that that is a bad thing, but it certainly isn't "greatest thing since sliced bread" that ESPN and every hack journalist across the country was hyping him as for months. Given that even network sportscasting dropped him from coverage about halfway through the year, I am a little surprised to see fans such as yourself still singing his praises.

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 10:13 AM
He will never be anything more than a Brian Westbrook--

Not only that, but Reggie's soft.

After that Brian Dawkins hit, I was surprised to see him get up. He finished the game, played pretty well, he showed some toughness there, but overall, he looks to soft for this league.

Spike
03-12-2007, 10:24 AM
I wouldn't say I am mad at the media regarding this issue...or all of the other posters on this board who continually bring up this issue for that matter. This topic is annoying now for the following reasons:

(1) This topic has been driven into ground. The Texans front office is never going to come out and say "Hey, we admit it, we made a mistake" because it unfairly takes a shot at Mario. It wasn't Mario's fault that he was the first pick or that he isn't Vince or Reggie. That being said, it is quite clear that if we could do it all over again, we would probably do things differently. No one really argues this point. A lot of us are sick about what could have been, but there is nothing any of us can do about this now. You have to move forward and continually kicking ourselves about this isn't going to do anything. We've been thinking, talking and reading about this for almost a full year...what other spin can you put on it?

(2) The Vince talk is frustrating. I am a UT fan and would have loved to have him in Houston, but that was never really an option. The talk was almost exclusively Bush and Mario. Almost every other team in the NFL had Leinhart over Vince. Hindsite is 20/20, but passing up on Vince at the time wasn't a surprise...EVERYONE was talking Bush. The Titans took a gamble and got it right...but the Texans were certainly not the only team that were wrong about Vince's ability to adapt to the NFL.

(3) It has been one season and Vince is already the best QB of all time, Reggie transcends the game and Mario is a bust. One season does not make a career.

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 10:33 AM
I wouldn't say I am mad at the media regarding this issue...or all of the other posters on this board who continually bring up this issue for that matter. This topic is annoying now for the following reasons:

(1) This topic has been driven into ground. The Texans front office is never going to come out and say "Hey, we admit it, we made a mistake" because it unfairly takes a shot at Mario. It wasn't Mario's fault that he was the first pick or that he isn't Vince or Reggie. That being said, it is quite clear that if we could do it all over again, we would probably do things differently. No one really argues this point. A lot of us are sick about what could have been, but there is nothing any of us can do about this now. You have to move forward and continually kicking ourselves about this isn't going to do anything. We've been thinking, talking and reading about this for almost a full year...what other spin can you put on it?


If we'd have done anything differently, we'd probably had made a more substantial offer to Jeff Garcia, and would've gotten Michael Benette from the Saints.

Still taking Mario #1 if no one would trade down with us. He was still the most highly rated defensive player in the draft. Going Defense with our first two picks, then offense with our remaining picks was most likely in the cards from Day one.

HuttoKarl
03-12-2007, 11:06 AM
Williams was not a reach. If Bush went #1 where do you think Mario would have gone?

#2 to New Orleans.

Scooter
03-12-2007, 11:14 AM
#2 to New Orleans.

it will never cease to amaze me that this was common knowledge ... bush & mario were going to go 1 & 2. we "reached" by 1 spot to go defense instead of offense.

HuttoKarl
03-12-2007, 11:22 AM
it will never cease to amaze me that this was common knowledge ... bush & mario were going to go 1 & 2. we "reached" by 1 spot to go defense instead of offense.

Yeah...I've heard entirely too many people say we could trade down and get Mario at 4 or later, but it's just not true. New Orleans didn't have any needs past Mario. I can't blame them for keeping the Bush pick though as Deuce wasn't exactly the picture of health.

qtab
03-12-2007, 11:28 AM
I don't think this is Texans-specific. If you follow other message boards, fans of teams always seem to look for ways to find disrespect by the media, refs, opposing coaches/players, etc. If it wasn't about the perception that we made a bad pick at #1 (rightly or wrongly) last year it'd be about something else. And regardless of anything with Mario, Reggie was the most exciting player in college football two seasons ago…we can argue whether or not we believe that this is true or if it was media-generated, but the fact is, most Americans and sports fans were interested in what Reggie was doing in his first pro season, and ESPN was going to report that.

It's not even sports-specific…AM talk radio survives on shows that center around the host telling you why he thinks your political beliefs/whatever are being attacked by "the media", or not being properly represented in the media.

We all want to be victims, and go out of our way to see what we want to see. I read something somewhere, don't even remember who wrote/said it, about how people seem to be unified now by things that we're against, rather than things we support.

For those of us that follow message boards, it gives us something to do at work all day. But really, none of it matters…I don't give a crap about what the media thinks about our team, or if we're respected or properly represented nationally…just give me 10 wins on Sunday and meaningful game in January and I'll be happy. Or, I'll be whining about being disrespected because we're playing on Saturday afternoon instead of Sunday evening...

The Pencil Neck
03-12-2007, 11:49 AM
quoted for effect.

where mario has been and will always go unnoticed is his impact which have no statistical value. i want to say that it was against the giants but i honestly cant remember which game ... the opposing team ran 3 times to mario's side for 4 yards. those numbers will never get the respect they deserve until mario reaches lawrence taylor or bruce smith status. mario came into the league as an underage premiere run stuffer on a bum foot ... to think he cant become a pass rusher is ludicrous. even as a rookie he lead the team with 5.5 sacks in limited playing time with little line help. we're in for a treat in the next few years, and a whole lot of "i told you so"'s.

Let me jump on here, there were several plays where I think Mario showed what he's going to be capable of once he gets healthy. One of those plays was against the Bills if I remember correctly. There was a sweep around Mario's side and blew through the guy that was supposed to block him like he wasn't there, then he blew through the pulling lineman like he was a puff of smoke, and then he nailed McGahee for a 4-5 yard loss. That was a monster play.

I had to stop the play and run it back and forth a few times and show my wife.

Besides his foot, I think is biggest problem this year was just thinking too much. If he gets healthy AND if he gets comfortable with his responsibilities and studies the film so he reacts more instinctively, I think this kid is going to be insanely good.

Mr. White
03-12-2007, 12:01 PM
Mario was the top defender on the draft boards last year. The Texans decided that they had a bigger need on that side of the ball.

While I would rather the Texans had drafted Vince Young, I don't fault them for taking Mario Williams. They picked the guy that they thought could help them win sooner.

Hookem Horns
03-12-2007, 12:02 PM
I know that at the time we thought that Carr was going to be ok,

We?

HuttoKarl
03-12-2007, 12:39 PM
Let me jump on here, there were several plays where I think Mario showed what he's going to be capable of once he gets healthy. One of those plays was against the Bills if I remember correctly. There was a sweep around Mario's side and blew through the guy that was supposed to block him like he wasn't there, then he blew through the pulling lineman like he was a puff of smoke, and then he nailed McGahee for a 4-5 yard loss. That was a monster play.

I had to stop the play and run it back and forth a few times and show my wife.

Besides his foot, I think is biggest problem this year was just thinking too much. If he gets healthy AND if he gets comfortable with his responsibilities and studies the film so he reacts more instinctively, I think this kid is going to be insanely good.


The play I'll never forget is Mario tossing Bob Whitfield about ten yards into the backfield before crushing Eli Manning.

kcwilson
03-12-2007, 12:42 PM
The play I'll never forget is Mario tossing Bob Whitfield about ten yards into the backfield before crushing Eli Manning.

In fairness, everyone wanted him here specifically to sack Manning, but many people forgot to specify which one.

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 12:50 PM
I just re-watched the second Jacksonville game. They ran a fake reverse, were they ended up picking up the first down. Mario screwed up and bit on the fake, instead of sacking Garard.

But when I say he bit on the fake, I mean he damn near decapitated Reggie Williams for what would have been a 12 yard loss(had it been a reverse).

HuttoKarl
03-12-2007, 12:52 PM
In fairness, everyone wanted him here specifically to sack Manning, but many people forgot to specify which one.

On that particular play, Archie, Peyton, Eli and Mama Manning all felt it. Eli got DROVE!!!

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 12:56 PM
The play I'll never forget is Mario tossing Bob Whitfield about ten yards into the backfield before crushing Eli Manning.

Wasn't it two plays later he blind sided little Manning, and ended that drive??

That was a pretty mean hit as well. Didn't count as a sack, but we got the same result.

HOU-TEX
03-12-2007, 12:57 PM
I just re-watched the second Jacksonville game. They ran a fake reverse, were they ended up picking up the first down. Mario screwed up and bit on the fake, instead of sacking Garard.

But when I say he bit on the fake, I mean he damn near decapitated Reggie Williams for what would have been a 12 yard loss(had it been a reverse).

I think that play could be argued both ways. He could've bit on the fake, sure. OTOH, he could've made the correct play. Containing his side would've been the correct thing to do. He did it! What if he would've tackled Garrard and the ball was handed off to Williams? IMO, he made a good choice. Now in a perfect world he would've knocked both the QB and Williams out at the same time. lol

real
03-12-2007, 01:01 PM
I think that play could be argued both ways. He could've bit on the fake, sure. OTOH, he could've made the correct play. Containing his side would've been the correct thing to do. He did it! What if he would've tackled Garrard and the ball was handed off to Williams? IMO, he made a good choice. Now in a perfect world he would've knocked both the QB and Williams out at the same time. lol

He made the right play.

HOU-TEX
03-12-2007, 01:04 PM
He made the right play.

I think he did too. As a former DE, outside containment was always a must.:)

HuttoKarl
03-12-2007, 01:10 PM
I just re-watched the second Jacksonville game. They ran a fake reverse, were they ended up picking up the first down. Mario screwed up and bit on the fake, instead of sacking Garard.

But when I say he bit on the fake, I mean he damn near decapitated Reggie Williams for what would have been a 12 yard loss(had it been a reverse).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56dGduRc1I4

For your really quick viewing enjoyment.

The Pencil Neck
03-12-2007, 01:21 PM
I just re-watched the second Jacksonville game. They ran a fake reverse, were they ended up picking up the first down. Mario screwed up and bit on the fake, instead of sacking Garard.

But when I say he bit on the fake, I mean he damn near decapitated Reggie Williams for what would have been a 12 yard loss(had it been a reverse).

I remember that play! That was priceless. Coaches are making sure their receivers don't get that film during their film study because otherwise they'll refuse to run a reverse or fake reverse against us. Ever.

He almost got there soon enough to tackle both of them. It's like that old Deacon Jones line about him tackling the entire backfield and then pitching guys out until he found the one with he ball.

Texan_Bill
03-12-2007, 01:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56dGduRc1I4

For your really quick viewing enjoyment.

Thanks for that. I thought I had remembered which play was being discussed, and that was it...

I agree that he made the right play in taking the guy on the reverse, but as HOU-TEX said "Now in a perfect world he would've knocked both the QB and Williams out at the same time. lol" would have been perfect.

caspian
03-12-2007, 02:23 PM
I don't get it. I mean, we did screw up last year. The media reports the current opinion, and the current opinion is that we messed up. Heres the deal:

We go into 2006 draft saying we don't need a QB.
We pass on Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler (3 QBs with grat potential)
We say Carr is QB of the future and our franchise guy
Carr plays horribly all year, our offense is terrible.
Vince leads the Titans to a crazy comeback year, Matt and Cutler show promise, and we are now shopping Carr for a 4th round pick.
And to top it all off, we are considering starting a career backup or drafting Quinn

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


Even if that doesn't, we go into 2006 saying we are set with our halfback situation because we have DD.
Even without him, we claim that Kubiak's system can make a 1000 yard rusher out of anyone.
The first half of the season our running game goes nowhwere
Our 2006 HB pick, Lundy, struggles in every game not during the preseason
First move we make in 2007 free agency is to sign an over 30 back, Ahman Green
And to top it all off, for the latter half of the season, Bush breaks out of his funk and starts playing like the guy everyone thought he was going to be. And the Saints go deep into the NFC playoffs.

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


And even if both of those don't, we ended up drafting Mario Williams, the next Julius Peppers to fix our pass rush.
The first part of the season he was invisible
He then starts to get going, only to sort of disapear as the year progressed
And to top it all off, we cite pass rush as one of our biggest needs AGAIN this offseason

So doesn't that warrant some, "oops they msesed up!" talk?

The fact is, we pass on 3 of the best QBs to come out in a long time, and the very next year have a huge hole at QB
We pass on a fantastic playmaking RB only to sign a band-aid back the next offseason
We claim we did this to shore up our Dl and pass rush, only to relist it as one of our priorities this offseason.

I know that at the time we thought that Carr was going to be ok, I know that the OL was unpredictable beause of injuries, I know that Bush would probably not have succeeded here, I know that Williams and the rest of the DL was injured a lot last year, but you have to admit that in general, we had a good opportunity last year to pick a "media-dubbed-sure-bet" We didn't, and the guy we picked did very little. As a result, we've got to be OK with the media bashing.
We went against the grain, it didn't pan out as we'd hoped, and now we've got to live with our choices.

I personally think in time VY's technical weakness will start to show, while Leinart and Cutler will both improve. I think Reggie will be great, and I think MW will also be dominant. But for now, it SEEMS to most that we got stuck with the weakest link, and until MW comes through with a dominant year, we are going to be looked down on. And rightfully so

I completely agree. It makes people seem like delusional homers to get ticked at the media for saying what everyone outside of Houston already knows.

I disagree, however, that VY will decline in any way. He's a stud and he'll continue to improve.

Historyhorn
03-12-2007, 08:42 PM
Long post but if you want to simplify it:

Last year was laoded with "game breakers" on offense...franchise guys

We went defensive line to put pressure on the teams in our division

A year later we still have no playmakers and are still looking to d-line and defensive help in the draft.

Oops

Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. And guess what? The media is right on this one. The only way it will turn is if Mario turns into a game-changing DE where other teams have to gameplan for him. Anything less, and the use of the first pick in the '07 draft will go down as a collossal screw up.

Go Texans

Ole Miss Texan
03-12-2007, 09:57 PM
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner. And guess what? The media is right on this one. The only way it will turn is if Mario turns into a game-changing DE where other teams have to gameplan for him. Anything less, and the use of the first pick in the '07 draft will go down as a collossal screw up.

Go Texans

I kinda saw that happening last year when he was injured. I think/hope next year he stays healthy and shows everyone really what he is...especially the fans. I can see Mario having a extremely good year next year beacuse he will be healthy and he will have better players around him on the D...and I think the fans will really love him after that.

I don't think the draft pick will go down as a collossal screw up. I think in the end people won't say wow houston was so smart for taking him over bush/young....but i think they will say wow mario is awesome...no matter what bush and young do. (that is unless both of them re-define the NFL like we were promised)

vincevance
03-12-2007, 10:27 PM
Angry? why, because the Texans got the first pick and screwed it up over thinking it? I guess. Mainly angry at getting this guy with the bad skates. You know the one part of your body that can cause you the most health trouble? Your feet. A soldier takes great care not to hurt his feet. You infect something here, damage something there and you get some serious side illnesses. It's like an old genetic code says 'just do the guy in when he can't walk anymore'. It's like a bird with a busted wing. If we have to hear about one foot injury on Williams this year, you can call him a major bust.

thunderkyss
03-12-2007, 10:43 PM
I kinda saw that happening last year when he was injured. I think/hope next year he stays healthy and shows everyone really what he is...especially the fans. I can see Mario having a extremely good year next year beacuse he will be healthy and he will have better players around him on the D...and I think the fans will really love him after that.

I don't think the draft pick will go down as a collossal screw up. I think in the end people won't say wow houston was so smart for taking him over bush/young....but i think they will say wow mario is awesome...no matter what bush and young do. (that is unless both of them re-define the NFL like we were promised)

I think there was a lot of pressure on the Texans in general... They(Kubiak & Rick Smith) let all this #1 pick stuff change the way they game plan.

Hopefully with Bush on board, well settle down, and focus on winning games, instead of making our #1 overalls look good. The stats that matter will come, if we just follow a good game plan.

kastofsna
03-13-2007, 10:52 AM
should've taken leinart.

Mr teX
03-13-2007, 11:58 AM
I don't get it. I mean, we did screw up last year. The media reports the current opinion, and the current opinion is that we messed up. Heres the deal:

We go into 2006 draft saying we don't need a QB.
We pass on Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Jay Cutler (3 QBs with grat potential)
We say Carr is QB of the future and our franchise guy
Carr plays horribly all year, our offense is terrible.
Vince leads the Titans to a crazy comeback year, Matt and Cutler show promise, and we are now shopping Carr for a 4th round pick.
And to top it all off, we are considering starting a career backup or drafting Quinn

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


Even if that doesn't, we go into 2006 saying we are set with our halfback situation because we have DD.
Even without him, we claim that Kubiak's system can make a 1000 yard rusher out of anyone.
The first half of the season our running game goes nowhwere
Our 2006 HB pick, Lundy, struggles in every game not during the preseason
First move we make in 2007 free agency is to sign an over 30 back, Ahman Green
And to top it all off, for the latter half of the season, Bush breaks out of his funk and starts playing like the guy everyone thought he was going to be. And the Saints go deep into the NFC playoffs.

Doesn't that warrant some, "oops, they messed up!" talk?


And even if both of those don't, we ended up drafting Mario Williams, the next Julius Peppers to fix our pass rush.
The first part of the season he was invisible
He then starts to get going, only to sort of disapear as the year progressed
And to top it all off, we cite pass rush as one of our biggest needs AGAIN this offseason

So doesn't that warrant some, "oops they msesed up!" talk?

The fact is, we pass on 3 of the best QBs to come out in a long time, and the very next year have a huge hole at QB
We pass on a fantastic playmaking RB only to sign a band-aid back the next offseason
We claim we did this to shore up our Dl and pass rush, only to relist it as one of our priorities this offseason.

I know that at the time we thought that Carr was going to be ok, I know that the OL was unpredictable beause of injuries, I know that Bush would probably not have succeeded here, I know that Williams and the rest of the DL was injured a lot last year, but you have to admit that in general, we had a good opportunity last year to pick a "media-dubbed-sure-bet" We didn't, and the guy we picked did very little. As a result, we've got to be OK with the media bashing.
We went against the grain, it didn't pan out as we'd hoped, and now we've got to live with our choices.

I personally think in time VY's technical weakness will start to show, while Leinart and Cutler will both improve. I think Reggie will be great, and I think MW will also be dominant. But for now, it SEEMS to most that we got stuck with the weakest link, and until MW comes through with a dominant year, we are going to be looked down on. And rightfully so


What you fail to realize is that we were/are screwed either way.

If we pick Bush & he turns out to be nothing more than an Eric Metcalf or something close while the others go on to flourish, the media is going to say we screwed up.

If we pick any 1 of the QB's & they turn out to be the next Ryan Leaf/Todd Marinovich/Akili Smith while the others go on to do well the media is going to say we screwed up.

Even if we would have traded down & picked up extra picks & gotten some overall pretty good players with those picks, made a mini run in the playoffs for a good little while, but RB,ML,VYor even JC go on to have a HOF type career, they'll say we screwed up.

The point is the draft is a crap shoot even that high in the draft & the media is going to say whatever to make it appear that they knew it all along. How does that bumper sticker go "Only fools believe the biased........". & what we know now was all speculation & projection then.

dalemurphy
03-13-2007, 12:07 PM
Um, because they were right? We had 3 great QB's we could have picked.


None of the National media suggested Vince Young should have been the #1 pick. And, only the locals, acknowledging that it had little to do with talent evaluation, thought we should've drafted Vince Young... As a matter of a fact, much of the media had Vince as the #3 QB and most had Mario ranked ahead of all 3 QBs.

So, I guess a year of everything related to the Texans starting and ending with ridicule of their draft pick, gets annoying.

Ole Miss Texan
03-13-2007, 01:35 PM
None of the National media suggested Vince Young should have been the #1 pick. And, only the locals, acknowledging that it had little to do with talent evaluation, thought we should've drafted Vince Young... As a matter of a fact, much of the media had Vince as the #3 QB and most had Mario ranked ahead of all 3 QBs.

So, I guess a year of everything related to the Texans starting and ending with ridicule of their draft pick, gets annoying.

Skip Bayless is pretty much the only 'national media' guy that has said we should have taken Vince Young. He thought we should pass on reggie but take vince. "take the hometown kid"

I don't get this arguement...I know I'd rather take a hometown guy over someone else but where he's from shouldn't make your decision or your setting yourself up for a big downfall. (maybe/maybe no vince will be that case)

But it'd be like Tennessee drafting cutler just because he went to vandy in nashville.

afcman
03-13-2007, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by afcman

Um, because they were right? We had 3 great QB's we could have picked.

End Quote


None of the National media suggested Vince Young should have been the #1 pick. And, only the locals, acknowledging that it had little to do with talent evaluation, thought we should've drafted Vince Young... As a matter of a fact, much of the media had Vince as the #3 QB and most had Mario ranked ahead of all 3 QBs.

So, I guess a year of everything related to the Texans starting and ending with ridicule of their draft pick, gets annoying.

I stand by what I posted. I don't care if the "media" didn't think Young should go first. All of this IS annoying. Why? Because we NEED a player-maker in the QB position. And we passed on 3 great choices. We could/can build the defense up by other means. QB's, especially with such potential, only come around so often.

Here's another thing....Vince WANTED to come here. How many players are banging on our door? (And I mean players who want to actually play instead of getting "hurt" and pick up an easy paycheck. :) )

:stirpot:

bigbrewster2000
03-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Here's another thing....Vince WANTED to come here. How many players are banging on our door? (And I mean players who want to actually play instead of getting "hurt" and pick up an easy paycheck. :) )

:stirpot:

Yeah no kidding, I mean Mario Williams is such a Jerk, He goes off and lets himself get injured instead of deciding to just go ahead and play healthy. Wow, what a bum.

afcman
03-13-2007, 02:41 PM
Yeah no kidding, I mean Mario Williams is such a Jerk, He goes off and lets himself get injured instead of deciding to just go ahead and play healthy. Wow, what a bum.

:) I was kind-of, but not too much, joking. Ever notice that when it becomes apparent that a team is gonna have a bad year, lots of players on that team get "hurt"? This "phenomenon" goes on all the time. I mean, why put your body at risk for a team that doesn't seem to be going anywhere? :)

This is another reason why it can be difficult for a team to climb out of the rut. It becomes like a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you think this doesn't happen, think again.

EDIT: BTW, I don't think this is what Mario did. I think he gave his all. I look forward to next year for him to have learned from his first year.

caspian
03-13-2007, 06:15 PM
The point is the draft is a crap shoot even that high in the draft & the media is going to say whatever to make it appear that they knew it all along.

The draft is an imperfect science and is therefore a matter of probabilities, I agree.

However, Reggie Bush and Vince Young were the least 'crap shoot' guys you can possibly have in a draft. Odds were super high that one of them was going to be ROY and help their teams improve.

And ONE year later we're looking for both of their positions?...are you kidding? That's gonna be called stupid by anyone anywhere; most were saying it on draft day. One year later, Mario didn't even come close to being the best/most disruptive at his position or being rookie of the year (which is where you want your 1st pick to be!).

I'm sick of the he's-just-a-rookie excuse. So were Bush and Young. And any collateral, "beyond the numbers" impact Mario had, so did Bush and Young. Don't think Bush was a marked man all year also?

For Mario to even be just an equally good 1st pick as Bush or Young, he needs to DOMINATE his position for years. This seems pretty unlikely now; not a good bet. Bush & Young were far better bets. Remember when rumors were the bottom teams were throwing games just to get the 1st pick???

I suppose Mario still could improve to dominate, but geez...I didn't see much from him (even when healthy).

I think the FO just thought too hard about the decision instead of going with the obvious. Hey, I guess it happens, but I can't stand the idea of digging our heads in the sand about it.

It was a mistake on a football level, on a financial level, on an intangible level of excitement for the franchise...let's just not do it again.

I think Quinn would also be a mistake, but I'm much less certain about that.

thunderkyss
03-13-2007, 09:40 PM
The draft is an imperfect science and is therefore a matter of probabilities, I agree.

However, Reggie Bush and Vince Young were the least 'crap shoot' guys you can possibly have in a draft. Odds were super high that one of them was going to be ROY and help their teams improve.

I'm sick of the he's-just-a-rookie excuse. So were Bush and Young. And any collateral, "beyond the numbers" impact Mario had, so did Bush and Young. Don't think Bush was a marked man all year also?


Reggie was a candidate for ROY before he stepped on an NFL field. He was going to be a candidate regardless what he did in the NFL.

& by the by. Reggie's first year was about as amazing as DD's. Except DD looked like a running back.

caspian
03-14-2007, 02:06 AM
Reggie was a candidate for ROY before he stepped on an NFL field. He was going to be a candidate regardless what he did in the NFL.

& by the by. Reggie's first year was about as amazing as DD's. Except DD looked like a running back.

That's not true. He exuded all-world talent; if you can't see it, it says more about you than about Reggie.

And teams didn't design their defense to key on DD from day 1 like with Reggie. Reggie isn't pigeon-holed as an RB either; he's all-purpose and will do it all (including returning punts). How is that a knock on him?

thunderkyss
03-14-2007, 08:34 AM
That's not true. He exuded all-world talent; if you can't see it, it says more about you than about Reggie.

And teams didn't design their defense to key on DD from day 1 like with Reggie. Reggie isn't pigeon-holed as an RB either; he's all-purpose and will do it all (including returning punts). How is that a knock on him?

When you're covered by a single linebacker, and that linebacker tackles you as you make the catch, or prevents you from making the catch, that defense wasn't key'd in on you. When you are dropped for a 6 yard loss, that is not all world talent. When you fumble the ball, running down the sideline, with no one around you... well, let's just say you aren't that good.

And bye the bye, in 2006 Reggie Ranks 47th in avg yards per return (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/PR-PUNTRETURNS/2006/regular)

Notice how there isn't one, but several Houston Texans rated higher than Reggie on that list. Edell Shepard, Phillip Buchannon, and Dexter Wynn...

Notice Maurice Jones-Drew at #5. Maurice Jones-Drew, with 914 yards rushing, 436 yards recieving, 860 yards on kick returns, That's 2210 all purpose yards, 10 TDs, and most importantly, 1 fumble.

Laurence Maroney, 745 yards rushing, 194 yards recieving, 783 yards on kick returns... 1722 yards in 14 games.

& My personal favorite, Joseph Addai, 1081 yards rushing(4.8ypc), & 325 receiving...

At best, Reggie wasn't even the third best rookie running back of 2006.

hadaad
03-14-2007, 01:19 PM
However, Reggie Bush and Vince Young were the least 'crap shoot' guys you can possibly have in a draft.

I'm calling bull on this one. Yes, Bush was supposed to be the next coming of Gale Sayers and probably has already been sized for his HOF ring, but Vince Young was a Steve McNair type coming out. A guy who wouldn't step on the field for a season, maybe two. Sure, Young blew the heck out of the curve and came in and played right away but that doesn't make him any less of a crap shoot guy than Mario Williams.

Quarterbacks that early are always more risky than other positions.

caspian
03-14-2007, 01:36 PM
When you're covered by a single linebacker, and that linebacker tackles you as you make the catch, or prevents you from making the catch, that defense wasn't key'd in on you. When you are dropped for a 6 yard loss, that is not all world talent. When you fumble the ball, running down the sideline, with no one around you... well, let's just say you aren't that good.

And bye the bye, in 2006 Reggie Ranks 47th in avg yards per return (http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/PR-PUNTRETURNS/2006/regular)

Notice how there isn't one, but several Houston Texans rated higher than Reggie on that list. Edell Shepard, Phillip Buchannon, and Dexter Wynn...

Notice Maurice Jones-Drew at #5. Maurice Jones-Drew, with 914 yards rushing, 436 yards recieving, 860 yards on kick returns, That's 2210 all purpose yards, 10 TDs, and most importantly, 1 fumble.

Laurence Maroney, 745 yards rushing, 194 yards recieving, 783 yards on kick returns... 1722 yards in 14 games.

& My personal favorite, Joseph Addai, 1081 yards rushing(4.8ypc), & 325 receiving...

At best, Reggie wasn't even the third best rookie running back of 2006.

You just seem like a bitter homer. Only a defensive Texans fan says what you're saying. Sorry, but Bush would still be the first RB/WR picked even after last year's modest numbers. He's an obvious phenom. He still has significant upside. And extra bonus, he just plain puts butts in the seats.

And my main point still includes Vince too. The FO made a mistake.

Anyway, I'm done on this; you can have last word.

Onward and upward.

Numbskull
03-14-2007, 10:38 PM
I can see your point that the Texans knew what they were getting into making such a controversial pick and "did it to themselves" from a media standpoint, but the fans cannot find themselves accountable in that same respect as they have no control over what the FO does or doesn't do. I think it would be very hard for the majority of a fanbase to ignore the kind of scrutiny that the Texans franchise has received for their selection of Mario Williams. The criticism was found at the end of every national media report involving VY or RB and it is not a thrill for a fan's team to not only be criticized in their own lowlights, but in other team's hightlights too.

You should understand why Texans fans are angry with the media. The majority of the people here are convinced that Mario Williams wasn't the wrong pick given the circumstances leading up to his selection. They do not believe that such widespread criticism is well justified and are angry with the media's misportrayal of their beloved team.

that said....

Some of the guys here just seem bitter as they draw at straws to discredit RB and VY for what were great rookie campaigns. Bitter with the media, their own FO, the Mario Williams selection, or just their team in general I'm not sure.

Vince Young was 8-3 as a rookie starter and almost singlehanded led the Titans to a playoff birth, missing entry by one game. Had the Titans managed to win one or two of the first five games that they lost consecutively to start the season with incompetent Kerry Collins running the show, they likely would have been in the playoffs. Considering the overall talent level beyond VY on both sides of the ball and the strength of the AFC, that is incredible. I'd be slapping my face too a year later if I still needed a QB and I had a chance at VY a year earlier (not to mention passing up a hometown hero that just lead the local college jugarnaught to a national title).

Bush was an integral part of a Saints offense and huge reason why it ranked #1 in the league and helped to lead the team to NFC Championship game. People here try to discredit Bush because he actually got help from his teammates and they just come off as laughable in my opinion. If they cannot see what a nightmare Bush had become by the end of the season for opposing 'D' coordinators to matchup with, then they either weren't paying attention or are blind. I see alot of Bitter Bettys just hating on Reggie because they want to justify their anger with the media for the "unjust criticism" against their team.

What everyone needs to do is just get over the fact that the media is full ego driven asshats who only seem to care about looking correct in the short term and who are only selling what their producers think will draw the highest ratings. Not every single person holds the national media's opinion in the highest esteem anyway. Think of how many times they screwed up just in this past year covering the NFL. I seem to remember all of those so called experts putting the collective fork in Indy after their game here against the Texans. Look what happened. Don't let them get so far under your skin....

thunderkyss
03-14-2007, 11:34 PM
You just seem like a bitter homer. Only a defensive Texans fan says what you're saying. Sorry, but Bush would still be the first RB/WR picked even after last year's modest numbers. He's an obvious phenom. He still has significant upside. And extra bonus, he just plain puts butts in the seats.

And my main point still includes Vince too. The FO made a mistake.

Anyway, I'm done on this; you can have last word.

Onward and upward.

& you seem like a poor talent scout. If Reggie was a wide reciever, I can see you still being high on him in hindsight. But as a running back, he is & will be the biggest bust this league has seen in a decade.

It's hard enough to pick the right guy as it is, even when you see him doing the things, at a college level, that an NFL running back has to do. With Reggie, you saw all the things that make a good bust. His highlight reels are made up of nothing but Reggie getting to the edge, and turning the corner, or him catching the ball out of the backfield, when no one was covering him.

It was all hype, looking back on '06, I'd have figured most people would have figured that out. But I guess you haven't.

Unless the Saints move Reggie to WR, he will have a very short NFL career.

And Vince... yeah, I'd have loved for the Texans to have drafted Vince. But that doesn't mean that the Texans made a mistake. They still got a very good football player. They passed the #1 offensive player in the '06 draft, and picked up the #1 defensive player. I can live with that.

It would have been a huge mistake to take the 4th best running back(or the 47th ranked punt returner) in that draft with the #1 overall... or the #2 for that matter.

Jwwillis
03-14-2007, 11:47 PM
Angry? why, because the Texans got the first pick and screwed it up over thinking it? I guess. Mainly angry at getting this guy with the bad skates. You know the one part of your body that can cause you the most health trouble? Your feet. A soldier takes great care not to hurt his feet. You infect something here, damage something there and you get some serious side illnesses. It's like an old genetic code says 'just do the guy in when he can't walk anymore'. It's like a bird with a busted wing. If we have to hear about one foot injury on Williams this year, you can call him a major bust.

Sort of like a pulled problematic groin on a RB? A.K.A. Reggie the GOD. I dont hear anyone calling him a potential bust over HIS injuries. But then that wouldn't fit in with ESPN's pre-ordained Hall of Fame nomination.

Ole Miss Texan
03-14-2007, 11:53 PM
Sort of like a pulled problematic groin on a RB? A.K.A. Reggie the GOD. I dont hear anyone calling him a potential bust over HIS injuries. But then that wouldn't fit in with ESPN's pre-ordained Hall of Fame nomination.

pre-ordained? i heard he was already inducted into it.

thunderkyss
03-15-2007, 12:03 AM
The majority of the people here are convinced that Mario Williams wasn't the wrong pick given the circumstances leading up to his selection.

I don't think so. I think the majority of fans realize that all the doubts about Reggie being to small to run it up the middle, and carry a team(if we drafted him, we'd have needed him to carry the ball over 20 times a game) were well founded. So I think most fans can live with picking Mario over Reggie.

Passing on Vince... I believe(and I have as little substance to base this on, as you have to support your opinion) most reasonable fans understand with the circumstances what they were, Mario was the right pick.

Picking up the three year option on David was a huge mistake, that led to the Mario pick. Even if that hadn't happened, I'm not so sure "most" on this board would have picked Vince.

I would... but not most.


Some of the guys here just seem bitter as they draw at straws to discredit RB and VY for what were great rookie campaigns. Bitter with the media, their own FO, the Mario Williams selection, or just their team in general I'm not sure.


There's that, then there are those who said they haven't seen enough from Reggie to make him the #1 RB in the '06 draft

Bush was an integral part of a Saints offense and huge reason why it ranked #1 in the league and helped to lead the team to NFC Championship game.

Well those aren't the words I'd use to describe Reggie's impact on that team.

People here try to discredit Bush because he actually got help from his teammates and they just come off as laughable in my opinion.

Or because three other running backs performed better in the same situation.

If they cannot see what a nightmare Bush had become by the end of the season for opposing 'D' coordinators to matchup with, then they either weren't paying attention or are blind. I see alot of Bitter Bettys just hating on Reggie because they want to justify their anger with the media for the "unjust criticism" against their team.

Sorry, I guess I just didn't see it.

Did I mention DDWs rookie year was just as "stellar" as Reggie's?? & he's just "mediocre" at best.

HoustonFrog
03-15-2007, 12:09 AM
Why has this thread turned into Bush v. Williams?The Texans had many options. They blew it with resigning Carr and handcuffing themselves and even then they could have pulled a San Diego and grabbed one of three QBs in a trong draft. Until Williams shows he was the best player in the draft, it is considered a bad pick by most people. It was need over pue talent on alot of fronts. We will have to wait a few years to see.

Numbskull
03-15-2007, 01:24 AM
You should understand why Texans fans are angry with the media. The majority of the people here are convinced that Mario Williams wasn't the wrong pick given the circumstances leading up to his selection. They do not believe that such widespread criticism is well justified and are angry with the media's misportrayal of their beloved team.

I don't think so. I think the majority of fans realize that all the doubts about Reggie being to small to run it up the middle, and carry a team(if we drafted him, we'd have needed him to carry the ball over 20 times a game) were well founded. So I think most fans can live with picking Mario over Reggie.

Passing on Vince... I believe(and I have as little substance to base this on, as you have to support your opinion) most reasonable fans understand with the circumstances what they were, Mario was the right pick.

What are you disagreeing with me about? You just retyped my original statement after taking time to discredit RB. Why do you say "I don't think so" and then retype what I just said and make it your opinion? Basically, your whole post moves to discredit me when you have no real opinion other than hat Reggie Bush compares well to a "mediocre at best" DD. I award you no points, your reply is worthless to the discussion. This is not about Reggie Bush. Its about bitter and angry Texans fans over the media's portrayal of their team.

caspian
03-15-2007, 01:44 AM
I'm calling bull on this one. Yes, Bush was supposed to be the next coming of Gale Sayers and probably has already been sized for his HOF ring, but Vince Young was a Steve McNair type coming out. A guy who wouldn't step on the field for a season, maybe two. Sure, Young blew the heck out of the curve and came in and played right away but that doesn't make him any less of a crap shoot guy than Mario Williams.

Quarterbacks that early are always more risky than other positions.

how many teams wouldn't have taken Bush or Young first?...that's a decent guage of who's considered the safest risk. I think the experts would disagree with you. Few had him over VY. mario wasn't even defensive MVP of his own team in college.

thunderkyss
03-15-2007, 08:07 AM
What are you disagreeing with me about? You just retyped my original statement after taking time to discredit RB. Why do you say "I don't think so" and then retype what I just said and make it your opinion? Basically, your whole post moves to discredit me when you have no real opinion other than hat Reggie Bush compares well to a "mediocre at best" DD. I award you no points, your reply is worthless to the discussion. This is not about Reggie Bush. Its about bitter and angry Texans fans over the media's portrayal of their team.

I have a problem with contractions.

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
03-16-2007, 12:34 PM
Only time will tell on this whole, 2006 draft recap...........

hadaad
03-16-2007, 01:21 PM
how many teams wouldn't have taken Bush or Young first?...that's a decent guage of who's considered the safest risk. I think the experts would disagree with you. Few had him over VY. mario wasn't even defensive MVP of his own team in college.

The general thoughts I'd read leading up to the draft were these: We would take Reggie Bush, the Saints would take Mario Williams and the Titans would take Leinart or Young. Leinart if they wanted to start him right away, and Vince if they wanted to have McNair start for a couple of years while they developed Young. A quarterback that wasn't predicted to start for a couple of years sounds a heck of a lot riskier than a defensive end. I'm not comparing their abilities, I'm not comparing who would have been the better pick. I don't care about that. I'm saying that Young was a riskier pick than Williams because Young wasn't even consensus best at his position in the draft.

gsus8091
03-20-2007, 08:08 PM
I can't seem to understand why everytime the draft is mentioned or grades are given out of last years draft or what the Texans need every body seems to crap on Mario. Why? Here is a couple of quotes from some 2007 NFL Draft magazines.

First Athlon, "Mario Williams was dinged up a bit and struggled in his first season." Thats as far as they go with describing his first season. Thats just not true. So he played with a banged up foot, big deal, he was still awesome and progressed throughout the season.

Sporting News Pro Football Draft guide gave Mario Williams rookie year a C. A C!! What the hell is going on? What do they mean by C? This is same magazine that gave John McCargo a C, he got the same grade yet played in 11 less games. How does this work out?

In Lindy's draft guide they put Mario Williams in the "Misses" section of the "Hit or Misses" of last years draft. And under it they wrote "Trivial Pursuit answer to "Who was drafted ahead of Reggie Bush?" struggled with foot injury to 4.5 sacks." Am I missing something here. Am I, actually or we the only ones who believe in this guy? They also wrote "Williams had a disappointing rookie season, plagued with plantar fasciitis. He didn't practice the entire second half of the season, making it impossible to make much improvement. He finished with 4.5 sacks and 35 tackles, and needs to make some big strides before next season." What? Did they even watch the same games I watched?

Only ESPN NFL Draft Magazine even remotely aknowledges that Mario is one of three cornerstones on the Texan defense. I just wanted to let people know what is being said about him in the early NFL mags. I can't wait to hear how bad they'll rip him come the NFL preview mags. Look people I would take Mario over everybody in last years draft, yes I know, that includes Vince Young. I love the way Mario plays, he the kind of guy the Texans should have as a cornerstone. I definitly would take him over any and all defensive players from last years draft. I'm just tired of every so called writer, TV personality, and radio shock jock hatin' on Super Mario. I hope he blows up every single QB he faces in 2007. GO TEXANS!!!! GO MARIO!!!!

gsus8091
03-21-2007, 12:27 AM
Um, no. That's revisionist history and hindsight being 20/20. At the time, only some a few local Longhorn fans thought we should take VY. Very few people took that seriously. I think most people were floored when the Titans took VY with the third pick because that's where Leinart was going to be reunited with his old coach.

Most people thought that Carr would be fine with a little coaching by Kubiak and improvement in our line.

No, the media all thought we should take Bush. I still don't think Bush was the right choice for us to take. He needs to share time with someone like LenDale White or Deuce McAllister because he's more of a change of pace back.

Most of us are angry at the media because:

1. They refuse to recognize that Mario filled more of a need for us than Bush would have.
2. They continue to harp every minor thing that Bush does like it's some major accomplishment when for most of the year, he really didn't perform that well.
3. They've started saying it was a mistake that we didn't take Vince when if you go back and look at what THEY were saying before the draft, everyone thought that Vince was going to be a project and probably wouldn't be able to play his game in the NFL.
4. It is now an unwritten rule that if any reporter mentions the Texans, they have to mention what a mistake it was that we didn't take Vince or Reggie and what a horrible draft we had even though we nabbed the DROY and got several other starters.

The top 4 guys on the board were Bush, Williams, Leinart, and Ferguson. And most of the reporters had them going in that order. Most of the mocks had them in that order. I think the media is just ticked off overall because the entire draft went totally differently than they had been reporting it was going to go.


Couldn't agree more, every time I turn on the TV or pick up a magazine they're(media) are ripping Mario. And it's becoming down right embarrising, not to me or to Mario or to the Texans, but there is so much hating going on that its absolutely insane. And these guys call themselves objective observers. I'm sick of it. Mario Williams is so good, if he would have waited to come out this year he would still be a top 2 draft pick. Thats with Calvin Johnson, Joey Thomas, Adrian Peterson, and JaMarcus Russell. Also your absolutely right, every time a reporter or an analyst talks about the Texans they ALWAYS have to mention how Houston passed on Bush and Young.

As for Bush, yeah maybe he'll be good, but he wasn't even the feature back in the Saints' offense. Deuce was, and guess what? Bush won't be the feature back next year either. If you think back on when the Saints were about to play some one last year the ESPN, CBS, FOX, and NBC guys would always say Drew Brees and Reggie Bush Saints. WHAT? Bush, what the hell is that? Talk about pushing a player on America and the NFL fan base.

You know, I used to take what these writers, so called experts, and analysts said into consideration but now they're becoming a joke. All they do is jump all over Mario Williams as this big bust who is totally worthless. Every time they mention him and the Texans its something negative its never positive with them. Well, I for one am not going to let them influence me or my loyalty for Mario and the Texans. This is my team and those lazy a$s Sporting News, FOX, Athlon, Lindy's, and ESPN guys who you just know never watched Mario for any amount of significant time can kiss my.....!! I hope most of you Texan fans feel the same way too. My last comment is for anyone out there who may know Mario personally. I hope he puts up 15 sacks, 80 tackles, 10 tackles for loss, and destroys All-American Payton Manning and the media's new darling Vince Young(sorry VY fans, he's not a Texan) for the world to see. So then maybe they'll start showing that on ESPN instead of an OT blocking Mario.