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mexican_texan
03-08-2007, 07:13 PM
Though I don't think newly signed Jordan Black will take his place, his signing got me thinking: is Winston a starter next year? I thought he did well last year, but I don't have a DVR to review tape like some others. Do you feel he should start next year?

TexansLucky13
03-08-2007, 07:17 PM
Quality Back-up

LORK 88
03-08-2007, 07:34 PM
Winston will start next year, it just hasn't been decided if he's starting at RG or RT (maybe even LT if necessary).

TexansLucky13
03-08-2007, 07:38 PM
Winston will start next year, it just hasn't been decided if he's starting at RG or RT (maybe even LT if necessary).

He may undoubtedly start next season, but I don't know if he will hold his spot any longer than that. Depending on how the FO uses the draft, he may or may not be in the starting lineup for 2008.

Personally I think he will wind up just being a backup swing tackle.

Runner
03-08-2007, 07:39 PM
Right now he has to be better than Salaam or Black - not too tough a hill to climb.

keyfro
03-08-2007, 07:41 PM
you know i was thinking about this and i seriously do not think that jordon black's signing will effect what the coaching staff has planned for eric winston...he is penciled in as the starter at RT...which is exactly where he needs to be...the philosophy i use with o-lineman drafted is this...if you were drafted in the first day then by half-way through your second year you should be the starter at your position unless you are behind a quality veteran that you were picked up to replace when they retire

i see jordon black being more of a guy who is here to challenge charles spencer and to help keep salaam from having to start another 14 games...but he is also here as insurence so that in the worst-case scenario that winston starts to fail at RT or becomes injuried we don't have to rely on UDFA's, late-round draft picks that aren't ready to play, or a street free agent that should be on the roster

i have all the confidence in the world in eric's abilities and expect him to hold onto the starting job as the RT for this team for years to come and to even make a few pro bowls in the process

Stampede
03-08-2007, 07:51 PM
Winston did some good things last year...some not so good...but he did'nt get much of an opportunity until later on in the season. I think more than anything he just needs to get some more playing time. Jury out til then.

alphajoker
03-08-2007, 08:37 PM
Winston did some good things last year...some not so good...but he did'nt get much of an opportunity until later on in the season. I think more than anything he just needs to get some more playing time. Jury out til then.

I agree, I mean...the guy was just a rookie! He was going to have his ups and downs and now with a season under his belt, I think he has a really good shot at starting, either at RT or RG.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 08:50 PM
If you have the Nashville game on tape, go watch it. Winston fills in for Salaam for most of one series... 7 plays I think, & I think he played better than Salaam.

Well, Salaam had a really bad game after he got back into that game.

But if you want to get a look at him at Left Tackle, watch that game.

I was impressed.

Hervoyel
03-08-2007, 08:52 PM
My biggest wish where the offensive line is concerned after "Spencer returns and plays LT like they hoped he would" is that Winston keeps the RT spot and holds onto it all year long.

If he can do that then he's probably got a good shot at keeping it for another year and the improvement we should see between the end of last year and the end of next year ought to be significant.

Look at offensive linemen drafted by the Texans. Disregard the free agents and just focus on the players we have selected.

I'm sure I'll leave someone out but

2002
Chester Pitts (Starting LG Texans)
Fred Weary (Starting RG Texans)
Milford Brown (Starting RG Cardinals)

2003
Seth Wand (2nd String LT Titans)

2004
Nobody (and that's a crime)

2005
Drew Hodgdon (Starting C Texans)

2006
Charles Spencer (Starting LT Texans)
Eric Winston (Starting RT Texans)

Ok, so Hodgdon is listed as the starting center according to the depth chart at NFL.com and we all know that's not really the case. He doesn't belong there and Flanagan or McKinney or somebody is going to send him back to the bench. Also Spencer was gone to IR almost as soon as the season started and Eric Winston only got the job at his spot due to injury.

I admit that none of these guys are on spectacular lines and some might be one bad camp from not making their team but, at least for the present the Texans have not drafted an offensive lineman who's washed out completely. No offensive lineman drafted by the Texans is "out of football" and flipping burgers.

if Winston comes back and works his butt off he'll be the starting RT for another season and that's all anyone can ask for in the NFL. We haven't really drafted much in the way of offensive line and our free agents have been mostly band-aid scrubs but our drafted OL prospects I think mostly suffered from lousy coaching and a bad system.

infantrycak
03-08-2007, 08:58 PM
Barring injury you will be seeing Winston at RT for 20 games next season. He did improve as he played, he has an attitude and most importantly, the coaches like his improvement as well.

Runner
03-08-2007, 09:01 PM
We haven't really drafted much in the way of offensive line and our free agents have been mostly band-aid scrubs but our drafted OL prospects I think mostly suffered from lousy coaching and a bad system.

Lots of good data in the post to lead us to this conclusion. I've been saying the same but your list of draftees and their current status makes it clearer.

Maybe they'll stick with Winston and show they've learned. The signing of Black continues the trend of band-aid scrubs in free agency though.

keyfro
03-08-2007, 09:14 PM
i don't think that jordon black is going to be a stop gap signing...i think the reason for the short contract is simply due to the fact that if spencer comes back healthy that kubiak obviously feels that he drafted his two starting tackles last year...at which point there is no reason to sign anyone to a long term contract...now if spencer can't come back then instead of having to rely on salaam to make it 16 games we have black who did ok in kansas city for only having one year at the position...keep in mind that black was a RT the year before and it does take time for lineman to get used to coming out of a different stance...this is why he was slower getting out of his stance this year...as was the same reason winston was slower this year compared to the year before at miami...when he's get used to coming out of a right handed stance to make them do it left handed just takes time to acustomed them to it...that's why i think if both of them start this year you'll see both of them have good seasons

nunusguy
03-08-2007, 09:15 PM
The signing of Black continues the trend of band-aid scrubs in free agency though.

But with a very significant distinction to some past signings, especially Oline FAs. Black's contract is only 3.5 M over 2 years, with a 1.2 M signing bonus,
as compared to guaranteed money of 10 M alone for Todd Wade 3 or 4 years
ago.
McNair is probably already feeling good about having tightwad RS as compared to spendthrift CC.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 09:16 PM
Barring injury you will be seeing Winston at RT for 20 games next season. He did improve as he played, he has an attitude and most importantly, the coaches like his improvement as well.

Are you saying what I think you're saying??

Runner
03-08-2007, 09:17 PM
Are you saying what I think you're saying??

Yes - he's our pre-season starter.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 09:19 PM
But with a very significant distinction to some past signings, especially Oline FAs. Black's contract is only 3.5 M over 2 years, with a 1.2 M signing bonus,
as compared to guaranteed money of 10 M alone for Todd Wade 3 or 4 years
ago.
McNair is probably already feeling good about having tightwad RS as compared to spendthrift CC.

not to mention Black has only been in the league 4 years, he's going to be around for a while, just like Spencer, Weary, Hogdon, Spencer(fingers crossed) & Winston.

We're not only getting depth, but we're getting younger.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 09:20 PM
Yes - he's our pre-season starter.

Dagnabit.... I was adding the 4 games to the end of the season.

:joker:

Clash_Fan3605
03-08-2007, 09:21 PM
Nevermind.

MorKnolle
03-08-2007, 09:22 PM
Though I don't think newly signed Jordan Black will take his place, his signing got me thinking: is Winston a starter next year? I thought he did well last year, but I don't have a DVR to review tape like some others. Do you feel he should start next year?

Winston should start. I like us signing Black, it gives us a more solid OT option than Ephraim Salaam was last year who could also start at either OT spot if Spencer isn't ready to go at the start of the year, and he could probably even play OG for us too if they decide to move him there. Winston could play OG and he's probably built a little more like a prototypical OG, but he's definitely a good enough athlete to stay at OT, so I personally would prefer to keep him there. He played pretty well overall there last year and definitely showed improvement as the season went on. I personally think Spencer and Winston were drafted to be our long-term OTs and they will likely stay there, unless of course Spencer's leg isn't good enough to go at the start of the season. However, Black gives us another solid OT that could challenge for a starting spot at OT with the two sophomores or could either play OG himself or bump Winston inside to OG.

BSofA04
03-08-2007, 09:23 PM
Winston will be tested next year for his job from Black. Black is in the prime of his career and started 15 games for the Chiefs last year at LT. Why does everyone think this guy is a so-so/band-aide pickup? The guy was a starter for a team who racked up 1,789 yards rushing during the regular season. True....it was LJ making the carries...but Black paved the way. I would love to see him at LT if Spencer doesn't come back so that we can draft DLine/secondary with our 1st pick. He's a VERY solid pickup who will challenge both tackles for the starting position. It will only make Winston a better player. Good job FO!

Runner
03-08-2007, 09:25 PM
Why does everyone think this guy is a so-so/band-aide pickup?

In my case, from watching him play when I had the chance.

keyfro
03-08-2007, 09:28 PM
well if you watched the colts vs chiefs playoff game this past season you could have saw black get toasted by freeney left and right...i watched that game and played special attention to him because i knew he was going to be a possible signing for us at the LT position...plus what better way to get a measure a guys worth in this division than to see him go against the best pass rusher in our division...right?

now while he struggled against freeney do keep in mind that it was his first time to face freeney i think...when they ran the ball...he was getting a real good push

dalemurphy
03-08-2007, 09:33 PM
well if you watched the colts vs chiefs playoff game this past season you could have saw black get toasted by freeney left and right...i watched that game and played special attention to him because i knew he was going to be a possible signing for us at the LT position...plus what better way to get a measure a guys worth in this division than to see him go against the best pass rusher in our division...right?

now while he struggled against freeney do keep in mind that it was his first time to face freeney i think...when they ran the ball...he was getting a real good push



I've also seen Jonathan Ogden get abused by Freeney. I wouldn't cry if we got him for 2 years at $4.5 million.

nunusguy
03-08-2007, 09:35 PM
Winston will be tested next year for his job from Black. Black is in the prime of his career and started 15 games for the Chiefs last year at LT. Why does everyone think this guy is a so-so/band-aide pickup? The guy was a starter for a team who racked up 1,789 yards rushing during the regular season.

While endowed with size and length, Black is also described as having slow feet and not being very athletic, while as a former TE Winston is far more
athletic with better feet. Guess which one is best suited for our ZB system ?
I dunno, but I don't think Black was brought in to compete with anybody as a
starter, but merely to back up the starters.
NP though, because the price was right.

Hervoyel
03-08-2007, 09:36 PM
If Black can take the job from Winston then great, that means our RT position just got better. If Winston has to push himself to hold off Black but keeps the position and forces Black to the bench then great, that means our RT position just got better.

It's all good.

BSofA04
03-08-2007, 09:37 PM
now while he struggled against freeney do keep in mind that it was his first time to face freeney i think...when they ran the ball...he was getting a real good push

It was his first start in a playoff game. It would have been nice to see him dominate, but Freeney was probably licking his chops.

Runner
03-08-2007, 09:43 PM
If Black had played for the Texans and put up the stats and played as he did for the Chiefs last year, he'd be roasted on this board. Why do I think this? In the past we've roasted Texans' tackles here on the board that played better and had better stats than him in the past and cost far less.

But the shiny new penny is always exciting.

gtexan02
03-08-2007, 09:45 PM
If Black had played for the Texans and put up the stats and played as he did for the Chiefs last year, he'd be roasted on this board. Why do I think this? In the past we've roasted Texans' tackles here on the board that played better and had better stats than him in the past and cost far less.

But the shiny new penny is always exciting.

Just to back you up, Black was worse statistically than Seth Wand during his infamous 2004 campaign as the Texans starting LT.

texasguy346
03-08-2007, 09:48 PM
If Black can take the job from Winston then great, that means our RT position just got better. If Winston has to push himself to hold off Black but keeps the position and forces Black to the bench then great, that means our RT position just got better.

It's all good.

Couldn't agree more. I think the more likely scenario is Winston winning the job & holding onto the RT spot. Maybe Black wins the RG spot, or maybe he becomes the swing tackle's swing tackle. Either way I'm happy with it.

Runner
03-08-2007, 09:48 PM
Just to back you up, Black was worse statistically than Seth Wand during his infamous 2004 campaign as the Texans starting LT.

Shocking.

$1.2M guaranteed, 3.5 over two years. Doesn't sound so cheap anymore.

infantrycak
03-08-2007, 10:04 PM
$1.2M guaranteed, 3.5 over two years. Doesn't sound so cheap anymore.

That is very, very cheap for an OT. Wand aside--exactly in line with back up OT money.

Runner
03-08-2007, 10:11 PM
That is very, very cheap for an OT. Wand aside--exactly in line with back up OT money.

Very, very cheap for an average back-up - but I have serious doubts if Black will even be on the team next year. I don't think he's much better than a Victor Riley or Marcus Spears from years past. Would you pay that much money to keep Brad Bedell on the team? He's a back-up tackle. Cheap can still be too much money.

I'll now to try* to get off Jordan Black's case. My posts are starting to irritate me. I'm sure he's a good guy that will give his all down here. Maybe he'll break through; maybe he'll be a back-up that doesn't have to play lots of downs.


No promises, especially if I read a lot of posts about how fantastic the signing is. :)

mexican_texan
03-08-2007, 10:16 PM
Shocking.

$1.2M guaranteed, 3.5 over two years. Doesn't sound so cheap anymore.
Very cheap in the new cap standards.

Runner
03-08-2007, 10:18 PM
Very cheap in the new cap standards.

Thanks for the input. Hopefully we won't be signing Bedell to a cheap contract like this too.

Insideop
03-08-2007, 10:22 PM
If Black can take the job from Winston then great, that means our RT position just got better. If Winston has to push himself to hold off Black but keeps the position and forces Black to the bench then great, that means our RT position just got better.

It's all good.

I have to agree Herv. I think Black was signed as an insurance policy in case Spencer can't come back right away, but also to give us depth at the RT position and Guard positions. If he starts, it will be because he won the position on the field in TC and/or preseason (unless someone goes down w/an injury, God forbid). If he doesn't, then he'll be quality depth. Like you said, "it's all good." JMHO!

keyfro
03-08-2007, 11:08 PM
well i think runner what you haven't realized yet is with black there is still a lot of potential that might not have been tapped yet...the guy is only 27 and for a O-lineman that is realitively young still...kubiak knows him from his days in denver...he knows what kind of lineman he can be...so trust ole kubes before you call out the overpay word

threetoedpete
03-08-2007, 11:47 PM
Quality Back-up

Agreed: Solid back up for Salaam and Erick. I do not agree that he is a right gaurd...in any system. Everyone will now hold their collective breath to now see if Spencer puts them, Salaam and Black, on the pine. At least it isn't a black hole anymore...just a hole.

Texans Horror
03-09-2007, 12:14 AM
I think Black was signed as an insurance policy in case Spencer can't come back right away, but also to give us depth at the RT position and Guard positions. If he doesn't, then he'll be quality depth. Like you said, "it's all good." JMHO!

That's some very expensive insurance, with little pay-off. Why do we need depth at Right Tackle and Guard?

Guards:

McKinney
Pitts
Weary
Winston

Tackle:
Pitts
Bedell
Salaam
Spencer
Winston

With all these swing players, I was hoping we'd look beyond "potential," "locker room guy," and "back-up."

well i think runner what you haven't realized yet is with black there is still a lot of potential that might not have been tapped yet...the guy is only 27 and for a O-lineman that is realitively young still...kubiak knows him from his days in denver...he knows what kind of lineman he can be...so trust ole kubes before you call out the overpay word

Average lineman plays 3-4 years in the league. Sounds like I-65 is closer to the end of his road, JMO.

Agreed: Solid back up for Salaam and Erick. I do not agree that he is a right gaurd...in any system. Everyone will now hold their collective breath to now see if Spencer puts them, Salaam and Black, on the pine. At least it isn't a black hole anymore...just a hole.

Rather than build towards failure (i.e., hire a guy to back up a guy who backed up a guy), why not get somebody to replace Spencer? Somebody who will really compete with his job.

Runner
03-09-2007, 12:20 AM
well i think runner what you haven't realized yet

I think that must be my major problem.

-------------------------------------

However this:

kubiak knows him from his days in denver...


Makes it hard for me to do this:

so trust ole kubes

I want to see Kubiak break out of his comfort zone - we really aren't Denver, with their depth and years of success.

blockhead83
03-09-2007, 12:31 AM
I'm all for Kubiak staying in his comfort zone when signing depth-providing players. If you're signing a low risk, low reward type contract to a player who's probably only going to be with you for 2-3 seasons, you may as well pick up a guy who already knows the system so he isn't just catching on as he moves on to a new team.

Buckle
03-09-2007, 08:29 AM
Remember that we are running a zone blocking scheme in which the blocking is different and requires a different type of lineman than most other offenses. If you look at Denver most of their lineman weren't big time signings on draft day or FA, they just fit the system. So yeah maybe Black was bad in KC in a completely different blocking scheme but who knows maybe he will excel in this one. Give our front office time, they know what they are doing. And with all these signings don't just dump it on Kubiak, because Rick Smith is also from Denver and HE is the one in charge of signing players, and even if you say Kubiak has never been a head coach and seems like he doesn't know what he is doing, Smith definitely does since he held the same position in Denver and from my calculations did a pretty darn good job of building a solid team on BOTH sides of the ball through the draft and FA. So give them time to get the players they need and overcome the horrible mistakes that the first coaching staff had!

Stampede
03-09-2007, 08:37 AM
We are not exclusively a ZB team. We run a lot of Power/Slant, and will do so even more now that Sherman has moved up to OC.

threetoedpete
03-09-2007, 08:45 AM
That's some very expensive insurance, with little pay-off. Why do we need depth at Right Tackle and Guard?

Guards:

McKinney
Pitts
Weary
Winston

Tackle:
Pitts
Bedell
Salaam
Spencer
Winston

With all these swing players, I was hoping we'd look beyond "potential," "locker room guy," and "back-up."



Average lineman plays 3-4 years in the league. Sounds like I-65 is closer to the end of his road, JMO.



Rather than build towards failure (i.e., hire a guy to back up a guy who backed up a guy), why not get somebody to replace Spencer? Somebody who will really compete with his job.

Agreed I'd give up draft capitol to move up for Joe Thomas. I'd stand pat or move down a bit and take Levi. But I ain't the GM. And I'm tring to avoid another nine pager with the two resident dunderheads.

real
03-09-2007, 09:17 AM
And I'm tring to avoid another nine pager with the two resident dunderheads.

:joker:

HuttoKarl
03-09-2007, 09:20 AM
Are you saying what I think you're saying??

4 preseason games.

threetoedpete
03-09-2007, 09:26 AM
:joker:

Well Mr. Joker...they got another one of your fifth round, the round don't make a difference guys....we'll see how that plays out.

real
03-09-2007, 09:41 AM
Well Mr. Joker...they got another one of your fifth round, the round don't make a difference guys....we'll see how that plays out.




Smile...

http://www.greaterthings.com/Humor/Images/monkey_smile.jpg


It's the off-season

mexican_texan
03-09-2007, 06:35 PM
According to Johnny Mac, Eric Winston, Weary, and Pitts are definite starters. I have faith that Eric Winston will be a Pro Bowler and this just made my day.