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DomDavis
03-05-2007, 03:35 AM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.

1. Why sign a running back who's injury-prone?

Well, because he's not. He had one leg injury two years ago - other than that, his track record has been one of incredible durability. 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 15 games, 5 years, and 14 games. You tell me which is the outlier among Green's nine seasons in the league. If anything, durability with Green is a positive, not a negative.

2. He's aging and washed up. A has been.

Do washed up has-beens accumulate almost 1,500 yards from scrimmage on about 300 touches last season? Do they average 4 YPC behind a poor offensive line (probably worse at run blocking than ours) and catch 46 passes at more than 8 YPC? Pop quiz: for all the love Reggie Bush gets for his versatility, who had more combined offensive yards (rushing + receiving) last season for a higher yards per touch - Reggie Bush, or Ahman Green? If you answered the latter, you'd be correct. If Green is a has been based on last season, I guess that makes Bush a never was.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.

4. Running backs at 30 or older never do anything.

I guess someone forgot to tell that to Tiki Barber, who rushed for 1860 and 1662 yards the last two seasons on more than 5 YPC to go with approximately 500 receiving yards. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Warrick Dunn, who rushed for 1416 yards and 1140 yards the last two seasons, at 5 and 4 YPC. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Fred Taylor, who rushed for 1146 yards at 5 YPC last season. While a majority of backs are young, by no means is it a rule or requirement.

5. Why sign a reject that other teams didn't want?

Green Bay tried to re-sign him. Denver tried to sign him. The logic of "why sign so and so because so and so's old team let him go" can be applied to every free agent in the history of free agency. If you believe in that, why pursue anyone other than in the draft? Green had plenty of other suitors, but we offered the deal to get him here and he took it.

6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

7. Why sign anyone so old? We're not going to contend in the next couple of years.

Yeah! That's the spirit! Don't even try in the next couple of years - that'll help build support for this franchise! Also, remember what happened the last time this team cut veteran leadership (Glenn and Sharper) and the dropoff that ensued when the team was put almost exclusively put in younger hands? Every team needs veteran leadership, particularly at skill positions, to direct the offense and help younger players. It's a vital part of building a team.

8. Why overpay for a 30-year old RB?

Well, first of all, running backs in the top five for the decade with 6 of 7 thousand-yard seasons (including last season) with good receiving skills don't come asking to play for the minimum. Secondly, this is the Houston Texans, not the Indianapolis Colts. This has been one of the worst teams in football for five years now. You think players are begging to play here? You have to pay a premium, change the culture, get some wins, and then potentially reap the rewards. It's a phase of rebuilding - either deal with it, or plan on rebuilding for a whole lot longer.



None of this is to say the signing is perfect - it certainly has its risks. But a few folks sound like they're complaining simply for the sake of complaining, rather than it being sound judgment and reasoning. These responses should answer some of the negativity.

Carr Bombed
03-05-2007, 04:01 AM
6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

You forgot to mention his ability to pick up the blitz, he's also a very good pass blocker for a RB

TMac48
03-05-2007, 04:14 AM
Nice post. I get really tired of reading all the whiners on these boards myself.

phan1
03-05-2007, 04:45 AM
Nice post. I wasn't all that excited at first, as he just didn't make headlines last season like he has in the past. Now, I'm a bit more optomistic. Especially with AP likely not falling to us in the draft. But I also wonder what's going on in GB. Is Morency the starter now? I really liked him and I'd be a bit dissappointed if I knew we gave up on a starter like Morency. Morency for Gado... I think it's obvious who won that trade.

Maddict5
03-05-2007, 05:01 AM
i dont know has this been posted in the other thread but it probably belongs here anyway because it may be myth: whereas im not surprised we picked green up because of the GB connection...i am surprised we picked him up with his rumoured personal problems ie. rumours that he beat up his wife

doesnt really seem like a mcnair/texans signing

CaliforniaCheez
03-05-2007, 05:12 AM
Congratulations Batman!! Ahman you got a good deal.

Ahman Green is a good consistent back. He does not whine or complain. If he says something needs to be corrected listen to him.

People will complain about this or that but he is a complete package. Not too big, not to slow. He can set up blocks by the line. He had a phrase in Green Bay- BYOB. Sometimes you have to Bring Your Own Blocker. He can run over, leap over, stiff arm, and fake defenders as needed.

While he is better than average at blitz pick up often he would chip and get into the pattern. If he did pick up the blitz a linebacker was also spying him which helped the open up the passing game. If the blitz did not come the occasional shovel pass worked well.

As a Packer fan I say Ahman Green's best attribute is versatility. He can do it all. The negative? He has asthma. When working on an 80 yard drive after 50 yards he might need a series off to catch his breath. It happened a lot at the edge of field goal range. He is a great locker room guy.

I don't know what the Packers were offering. 2 or 3 years??

The Packers got 7 years of great production by trading a 2nd round bust to the Seahawks for him. If the Texans get 3 good years of Batman it is a break even deal or better deal.

Expect 1100 yards rushing, 400-500 yards receiving, and several TD's where he is the decoy and another receiver is open. If it is third and short no one in the league is better. If it is 4th and 2 expect to go for it and get the 1st down.

I question the price tag. But it is gamble the Texans took and the Packers did not.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-05-2007, 05:18 AM
Excellent post.

whiskeyrbl
03-05-2007, 05:33 AM
Finally a positive post.

PapaL
03-05-2007, 05:44 AM
Whoop Whoop; a GREAT post. Use those facts!

Every FA signing is a risk. Some guys bring intangibles that make taking that risk worth while. Green is one of those guys.

TwinSisters
03-05-2007, 06:08 AM
i dont know has this been posted in the other thread but it probably belongs here anyway because it may be myth: whereas im not surprised we picked green up because of the GB connection...i am surprised we picked him up with his rumoured personal problems ie. rumours that he beat up his wife

doesnt really seem like a mcnair/texans signing

wow. Good call.

http://www.endabuse.org/celebritywatch/index.php?Fame=N
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=321631

Ahman Green
In May 2002, Shalynn Green received an order of protection against her husband, Ahman Green, a professional football player with the Green Bay Packers. Shalynn Green accused Ahman Green of threatening her and beating her twice while she was pregnant, reports USA Today. The order requires Ahman Green to stay away from his wife’s home and their children’s day care center; the judge also granted temporary custody to Shalynn Green. In March, police cited both Shalynn and Ahman Green on suspicion of disturbing the peace after an argument that left Ahman Green with a cut lip, according to USA Today.

Green has been involved in a domestic violence case before, involving his former wife, Shalynn Vance.

The two met in high school but had a rocky relationship. According to press reports in October 1999, the two got into an argument hours before their wedding and Green left the couple’s apartment.

Vance tried to lock the door behind them but Green re-opened it, and it hit her. The door chipped a tooth and bloodied her lips.

Malloy
03-05-2007, 06:37 AM
I fail to see the relevance of facts

RTP2110
03-05-2007, 07:04 AM
Great post, that is how you back up your argument!

Cjeremy635
03-05-2007, 07:22 AM
Great post man! I enjoyed reading it and it was a breath of fresh air as compared to most of the negative posts that are going on right now. Very informative. :ok:

Silver Oak
03-05-2007, 07:46 AM
Here's a week by week summary of Ahman's rushing from last season. It's a pay site so I'm not sure if everyone can look up the results themselves.


Week 1 vs CHI - The Green Bay workhorse was back at it after an injury shortened his 2005 campaign. He gained 110 yards on a great run defense, and caught three passes for another 22 yards. Green carried the ball a total of 20 times, including Green Bay’s first play of the game, and the very last with 21 seconds on the clock.

Week 2 vs NO - Green never managed to get anything going on the ground, finding short gains both inside and outside. He was more effective out of the backfield on several screen passes and drop offs in the flat. Green rushed for 42 yards on 16 carries but even more disappointing was his longest run of the game at just eight yards. He showed no sign of his past injuries, making several cutbacks to the inside without any problem. Green had six receptions out of the backfield for 48 yards. He had two fumbles in the game, one recovered by New Orleans which led to a Saints’ touchdown on the very next play.

Week 3 at DET - Ahman Green started the game despite reports that hinted to his missing time with a hamstring injury. He played nearly all of the game at tailback, certainly more than any other RB for Green Bay. He struggled as a runner, gaining fewer than three yards per carry and managing a long of just eight yards. He contributed far more as a receiver, as he caught all eight of his targets for a combined 68 yards and a touchdown.

Green nearly cost the Packers the game, as he fumbled the ball in the final minute of the game, which set up Detroit’s final drive. Fortunately for Green and Green Bay, the Lions failed to tie the game with a touchdown.

Week 4 at PHI - He was expected to play, but Green was surprisingly declared inactive for the game due to a hamstring injury.

Week 5 vs STL - Green was a late scratch for the second consecutive week due to his injured hamstring.

Week 7 at MIA - Green had missed the Packers' last two games because of a hamstring injury, but looked healthy in this game. He had a slow start as he only had 12 carries for 30 yards in the first half. Green cramped up at halftime and needed an I-V to get some fluids in him, but he did return in the second half. Green was having a quiet game as he only had 38 yards going into the fourth quarter, but that all changed when he took the ball 70 yards for touchdown on a run up the left side. He showed he still has breakaway speed as he outran the Dolphins’ defensive back down the sideline. Green got the majority of carries in the game as he had 18 carries and running backs Noah Herron and Vernand Morency had nine carries combined.

Week 8 vs ARI - Green ran hard for the second week in a row, after sitting out for two weeks with hamstring woes. His long gain was 14 yards and had several runs of over ten yards. He shared the load with Morency and was very productive, scoring two touchdowns in the second quarter.

Week 9 at BUF - Green started the game very slowly as the Buffalo defense seemed committed to not allowing the Packers to cut back and gain yardage. He was consistently stopped after short gains. But late in the second quarter and throughout much of the second half he started to find more running room and gained significant yardage. He ran relentlessly and with power. So far this season he has not shown his tendency to fumble the ball as in years past. He is apparently nearly back to his old self. He is rested often; in fact the Packers make sure that he does not run the ball more than 25 times per game.

Week 10 at MIN - Green had 41 yards on 14 carries in the first half against Vikings run defense that ranked number one coming into this game. He did have some scoring opportunities in the first half. He had a couple of goal line carries in the first quarter, but was stopped by a tough Vikings run defense. Green also missed a catchable ball thrown to him from Brett Favre in the first quarter in the end zone.

The yards came a lot harder in the second half as he only had 14 yards on eight carries as the Minnesota run defense stepped it up. He had a couple of scoring opportunities in the third quarter when he had a run and a pass thrown to him inside the Vikings’ ten yard line, but otherwise it was a very quiet half for Green.

Week 11 vs NE - Green Bay’s leading rusher finished the game with 28 yards on 13 attempts. With the Packers trailing the entire game, the rushing attack was all but forgotten.

Week 12 at SEA - Green scored on a five yard run to cap the Packers’ opening drive. He was given 11 carries in the first half as the team tried to dominate the game on the ground in the snowy conditions. Green also recovered a fumble from Favre in the first half. Green was ineffective after his opening score, and only had four gains of more than two yards on the ground from 14 carries. He was involved in the passing game in the second half, catching all six targets for a total of 46 yards.

Week 13 vs NYJ - While the passing game struggled, Ahman Green was one of the few bright stars for the Packers as he was able to find large holes in the Jets’ defense, including a run where he went right up the middle and scampered for 35 yards. Green also had a great second half where he was able to eclipse the 100 yard rushing mark on the ground and finished the day with 102 yards.

Week 14 at SF - Opening the game with a nine yard run, this was nearly his long run on the afternoon, though he later picked up a ten yard gain on a day where the Packers led the entire game, but he only averaged 3.7 yards per carry. On the play before his one yard touchdown plunge, Green was targeted on an unsuccessful passing attempt.

Week 15 vs DET - The former Nebraska Cornhusker rushed for 79 yards on 22 carries, and gained another 44 yards on seven pass receptions. He was able to find enough holes in the depleted Detroit line to give the Packers a nearly eight minute advantage in time of possession.

Week 16 vs MIN - Neither team really established any semblance of a running game, although Green Bay certainly had some early success. The numbers don’t fully back it up, but Green looked good running the ball early on. He was quick and elusive in the backfield, and had several decent mid-length runs. For whatever reason, despite the slick conditions on the field, each coach opted for more of an air it out approach, which really hindered Green’s opportunities for success.

Week 17 at CHI - Green played well and repeatedly fought for extra yardage by keeping his legs moving and shedding defenders. He ran the ball with authority and determination on his way to eclipsing the 1,000 yard mark for the sixth time in his career. Green carried the ball 21 times for 71 yards and provided an additional 39 yards receiving on four receptions. He finished the season with 1,059 yards and five touchdowns.



http://footballguys.com/index.html

ArlingtonTexan
03-05-2007, 08:55 AM
wow. Good call.

http://www.endabuse.org/celebritywatch/index.php?Fame=N
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=321631

Not going to call it good posting because there was no inclusion of the outcome of the case. Like too many domestic violence cases one was not prosecuted. IIRC, The then WIFE of Ahman Green was actually the one charged with abuse before that thing went nowhere. The facts are often murky in these cases and Green has no other known incidences. Not trying to paint him Mr. wonderful, but there is not real evidence here to portray him as a wife beater.

Buffi2
03-05-2007, 09:16 AM
Great post! How refreshing to read actual facts! Thank you!

Maddict5
03-05-2007, 09:30 AM
i dont know has this been posted in the other thread but it probably belongs here anyway because it may be myth: whereas im not surprised we picked green up because of the GB connection...i am surprised we picked him up with his rumoured personal problems ie. rumours that he beat up his wife

doesnt really seem like a mcnair/texans signing


Not going to call it good posting because there was no inclusion of the outcome of the case. Like too many domestic violence cases one was not prosecuted. IIRC, The then WIFE of Ahman Green was actually the one charged with abuse before that thing went nowhere. The facts are often murky in these cases and Green has no other known incidences. Not trying to paint him Mr. wonderful, but there is not real evidence here to portray him as a wife beater.

:ok:

valleytexfan
03-05-2007, 09:35 AM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.

1. Why sign a running back who's injury-prone?

Well, because he's not. He had one leg injury two years ago - other than that, his track record has been one of incredible durability. 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 15 games, 5 years, and 14 games. You tell me which is the outlier among Green's nine seasons in the league. If anything, durability with Green is a positive, not a negative.

2. He's aging and washed up. A has been.

Do washed up has-beens accumulate almost 1,500 yards from scrimmage on about 300 touches last season? Do they average 4 YPC behind a poor offensive line (probably worse at run blocking than ours) and catch 46 passes at more than 8 YPC? Pop quiz: for all the love Reggie Bush gets for his versatility, who had more combined offensive yards (rushing + receiving) last season for a higher yards per touch - Reggie Bush, or Ahman Green? If you answered the latter, you'd be correct. If Green is a has been based on last season, I guess that makes Bush a never was.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.

4. Running backs at 30 or older never do anything.

I guess someone forgot to tell that to Tiki Barber, who rushed for 1860 and 1662 yards the last two seasons on more than 5 YPC to go with approximately 500 receiving yards. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Warrick Dunn, who rushed for 1416 yards and 1140 yards the last two seasons, at 5 and 4 YPC. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Fred Taylor, who rushed for 1146 yards at 5 YPC last season. While a majority of backs are young, by no means is it a rule or requirement.

5. Why sign a reject that other teams didn't want?

Green Bay tried to re-sign him. Denver tried to sign him. The logic of "why sign so and so because so and so's old team let him go" can be applied to every free agent in the history of free agency. If you believe in that, why pursue anyone other than in the draft? Green had plenty of other suitors, but we offered the deal to get him here and he took it.

6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

7. Why sign anyone so old? We're not going to contend in the next couple of years.

Yeah! That's the spirit! Don't even try in the next couple of years - that'll help build support for this franchise! Also, remember what happened the last time this team cut veteran leadership (Glenn and Sharper) and the dropoff that ensued when the team was put almost exclusively put in younger hands? Every team needs veteran leadership, particularly at skill positions, to direct the offense and help younger players. It's a vital part of building a team.

8. Why overpay for a 30-year old RB?

Well, first of all, running backs in the top five for the decade with 6 of 7 thousand-yard seasons (including last season) with good receiving skills don't come asking to play for the minimum. Secondly, this is the Houston Texans, not the Indianapolis Colts. This has been one of the worst teams in football for five years now. You think players are begging to play here? You have to pay a premium, change the culture, get some wins, and then potentially reap the rewards. It's a phase of rebuilding - either deal with it, or plan on rebuilding for a whole lot longer.



None of this is to say the signing is perfect - it certainly has its risks. But a few folks sound like they're complaining simply for the sake of complaining, rather than it being sound judgment and reasoning. These responses should answer some of the negativity.


Definitely post of the day, week, month. Great info and right on. The team needed to make a move at running back and they made one. End of story. The guy's track record speaks for itself.

Marcus
03-05-2007, 09:43 AM
Props to you on a very good post, and this thread should be a sticky if I ever saw one.

My take on the whiners . . is they are just peeved that this somehow decreases the chances that somebody who they want to be drafted . . . will be.

TwinSisters
03-05-2007, 09:50 AM
Not going to call it good posting because there was no inclusion of the outcome of the case. Like too many domestic violence cases one was not prosecuted. IIRC, The then WIFE of Ahman Green was actually the one charged with abuse before that thing went nowhere. The facts are often murky in these cases and Green has no other known incidences. Not trying to paint him Mr. wonderful, but there is not real evidence here to portray him as a wife beater.

yeah the posting is about showing what is published about Ahman's domestic abuse history. One from the left, one from the center.

not to really say anything.

It's a good call to me, because I didn't know anything about it prior. ( or forgot )

Yankee_In_TX
03-05-2007, 09:56 AM
Post of the week, bud! We were driving and talking, and I said "Did they just say we signed Ahman Green?" Linds loves him b/c he's from Nebraska, and we both know he'll be a good fit and good addition to the team.

real
03-05-2007, 10:05 AM
Good Post... I totally agree...

Wolfiegrrl
03-05-2007, 10:11 AM
Thanks for the great post. I had been a bit skeptical about this signing. This is what happens when you watch a Packers game with a Seahawk fan. All the nasty bit about Green's Seahawk days stuck in my mind more than his positives with the Packers. Hahahahahah I feel a lot better after seeing someone put this information in one place. You Rock DomDavis!

I can't wait for 2007 to start!


GO TEXANS!

Lucky
03-05-2007, 10:13 AM
The facts are often murky in these cases and Green has no other known incidences. Not trying to paint him Mr. wonderful, but there is not real evidence here to portray him as a wife beater.

I pretty much agree about the murkiness. But, there were two incidents with Green's first wife, one with his second. The latter, Green did plead out (http://www.wdtimes.com/articles/2005/09/01/sports/sports4.txt) and agreed to counseling and community service. The league was never involved, and there was no suspension from the team.

I'm sure the Texans looked into this, and received assurances from Mike Sherman that Ahman is a standup guy. On the surface, it seems like Green is just a guy who has had a couple of bad marriages. It happens.

P.S. Good post, Dom Davis. :ok:

Sportsfan
03-05-2007, 10:13 AM
Great post. Thanks for putting all that together. It probably won't shut up the whiners but for us level-headed ones, its much appreciated.

Exithios
03-05-2007, 10:20 AM
I am absolutely stoked about this pickup. He may or may not DRAMATICLY improve our running situation, but the big picture is that he will rejuvenate the blocking from the back field and bring in much needed leadership abilities.

Now I need to find a retailer selling his Jersey. :yes:

texun
03-05-2007, 10:21 AM
OK DomDavis, you sold me. Ahman is Theman. I think he will be a great addition for the short term. Hopefully, Lundy can develop for the long term.

Porky
03-05-2007, 10:33 AM
While taking the glass half full approach, DomDavis made some excellent points, and applied excellent knowledge and analysis to his post. All in all, a simply great and informative post. I for one am excited about Green. He is instantly the best RB this team has ever had.

Anyone else find it ironic that DomDavis is lauding the signing of Ahman Green? :tease:

TexanAddict
03-05-2007, 12:04 PM
While taking the glass half full approach, DomDavis made some excellent points, and applied excellent knowledge and analysis to his post. All in all, a simply great and informative post. I for one am excited about Green. He is instantly the best RB this team has ever had.

Anyone else find it ironic that DomDavis is lauding the signing of Ahman Green? :tease:

My thoughts exactly!

SamuraiSword
03-05-2007, 12:20 PM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.

1. Why sign a running back who's injury-prone?

Well, because he's not. He had one leg injury two years ago - other than that, his track record has been one of incredible durability. 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 15 games, 5 years, and 14 games. You tell me which is the outlier among Green's nine seasons in the league. If anything, durability with Green is a positive, not a negative.

2. He's aging and washed up. A has been.

Do washed up has-beens accumulate almost 1,500 yards from scrimmage on about 300 touches last season? Do they average 4 YPC behind a poor offensive line (probably worse at run blocking than ours) and catch 46 passes at more than 8 YPC? Pop quiz: for all the love Reggie Bush gets for his versatility, who had more combined offensive yards (rushing + receiving) last season for a higher yards per touch - Reggie Bush, or Ahman Green? If you answered the latter, you'd be correct. If Green is a has been based on last season, I guess that makes Bush a never was.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.

4. Running backs at 30 or older never do anything.

I guess someone forgot to tell that to Tiki Barber, who rushed for 1860 and 1662 yards the last two seasons on more than 5 YPC to go with approximately 500 receiving yards. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Warrick Dunn, who rushed for 1416 yards and 1140 yards the last two seasons, at 5 and 4 YPC. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Fred Taylor, who rushed for 1146 yards at 5 YPC last season. While a majority of backs are young, by no means is it a rule or requirement.

5. Why sign a reject that other teams didn't want?

Green Bay tried to re-sign him. Denver tried to sign him. The logic of "why sign so and so because so and so's old team let him go" can be applied to every free agent in the history of free agency. If you believe in that, why pursue anyone other than in the draft? Green had plenty of other suitors, but we offered the deal to get him here and he took it.

6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

7. Why sign anyone so old? We're not going to contend in the next couple of years.

Yeah! That's the spirit! Don't even try in the next couple of years - that'll help build support for this franchise! Also, remember what happened the last time this team cut veteran leadership (Glenn and Sharper) and the dropoff that ensued when the team was put almost exclusively put in younger hands? Every team needs veteran leadership, particularly at skill positions, to direct the offense and help younger players. It's a vital part of building a team.

8. Why overpay for a 30-year old RB?

Well, first of all, running backs in the top five for the decade with 6 of 7 thousand-yard seasons (including last season) with good receiving skills don't come asking to play for the minimum. Secondly, this is the Houston Texans, not the Indianapolis Colts. This has been one of the worst teams in football for five years now. You think players are begging to play here? You have to pay a premium, change the culture, get some wins, and then potentially reap the rewards. It's a phase of rebuilding - either deal with it, or plan on rebuilding for a whole lot longer.



None of this is to say the signing is perfect - it certainly has its risks. But a few folks sound like they're complaining simply for the sake of complaining, rather than it being sound judgment and reasoning. These responses should answer some of the negativity.

LOL good post

Texan in Japan
03-05-2007, 12:22 PM
Great job DD! I've always like AG, he brings a well-rounded game to our backfield and makes drafting a RB high this year not a necessity. We can use AG and gang to augment the backfield; allows us to continue to build lines and defense in general.

He is a playmaker.

Great job Rick, now what's next?

Errant Hothy
03-05-2007, 12:28 PM
Green signed essentially the same deal that Fred Taylor signed to extend his contract with the Jags.

I don't know about y'all but I'd much rather have Green then Taylor.

Mr teX
03-05-2007, 12:32 PM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.

1. Why sign a running back who's injury-prone?

Well, because he's not. He had one leg injury two years ago - other than that, his track record has been one of incredible durability. 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 15 games, 5 years, and 14 games. You tell me which is the outlier among Green's nine seasons in the league. If anything, durability with Green is a positive, not a negative.

2. He's aging and washed up. A has been.

Do washed up has-beens accumulate almost 1,500 yards from scrimmage on about 300 touches last season? Do they average 4 YPC behind a poor offensive line (probably worse at run blocking than ours) and catch 46 passes at more than 8 YPC? Pop quiz: for all the love Reggie Bush gets for his versatility, who had more combined offensive yards (rushing + receiving) last season for a higher yards per touch - Reggie Bush, or Ahman Green? If you answered the latter, you'd be correct. If Green is a has been based on last season, I guess that makes Bush a never was.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.

4. Running backs at 30 or older never do anything.

I guess someone forgot to tell that to Tiki Barber, who rushed for 1860 and 1662 yards the last two seasons on more than 5 YPC to go with approximately 500 receiving yards. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Warrick Dunn, who rushed for 1416 yards and 1140 yards the last two seasons, at 5 and 4 YPC. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Fred Taylor, who rushed for 1146 yards at 5 YPC last season. While a majority of backs are young, by no means is it a rule or requirement.

5. Why sign a reject that other teams didn't want?

Green Bay tried to re-sign him. Denver tried to sign him. The logic of "why sign so and so because so and so's old team let him go" can be applied to every free agent in the history of free agency. If you believe in that, why pursue anyone other than in the draft? Green had plenty of other suitors, but we offered the deal to get him here and he took it.

6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

7. Why sign anyone so old? We're not going to contend in the next couple of years.

Yeah! That's the spirit! Don't even try in the next couple of years - that'll help build support for this franchise! Also, remember what happened the last time this team cut veteran leadership (Glenn and Sharper) and the dropoff that ensued when the team was put almost exclusively put in younger hands? Every team needs veteran leadership, particularly at skill positions, to direct the offense and help younger players. It's a vital part of building a team.

8. Why overpay for a 30-year old RB?

Well, first of all, running backs in the top five for the decade with 6 of 7 thousand-yard seasons (including last season) with good receiving skills don't come asking to play for the minimum. Secondly, this is the Houston Texans, not the Indianapolis Colts. This has been one of the worst teams in football for five years now. You think players are begging to play here? You have to pay a premium, change the culture, get some wins, and then potentially reap the rewards. It's a phase of rebuilding - either deal with it, or plan on rebuilding for a whole lot longer.



None of this is to say the signing is perfect - it certainly has its risks. But a few folks sound like they're complaining simply for the sake of complaining, rather than it being sound judgment and reasoning. These responses should answer some of the negativity.

yep, haters hate the facts.

RTP2110
03-05-2007, 12:33 PM
Great job DD! I've always like AG, he brings a well-rounded game to our backfield and makes drafting a RB high this year not a necessity. We can use AG and gang to augment the backfield; allows us to continue to build lines and defense in general.

He is a playmaker.

Great job Rick, now what's next?


I agree 100% With Geen in, we can scratch off one area of dire need, and focus on other areas that have been a constant plague for this team.

awtysst
03-05-2007, 12:35 PM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.

1. Why sign a running back who's injury-prone?

Well, because he's not. He had one leg injury two years ago - other than that, his track record has been one of incredible durability. 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 16 games, 14 games, 16 games, 15 games, 5 years, and 14 games. You tell me which is the outlier among Green's nine seasons in the league. If anything, durability with Green is a positive, not a negative.

2. He's aging and washed up. A has been.

Do washed up has-beens accumulate almost 1,500 yards from scrimmage on about 300 touches last season? Do they average 4 YPC behind a poor offensive line (probably worse at run blocking than ours) and catch 46 passes at more than 8 YPC? Pop quiz: for all the love Reggie Bush gets for his versatility, who had more combined offensive yards (rushing + receiving) last season for a higher yards per touch - Reggie Bush, or Ahman Green? If you answered the latter, you'd be correct. If Green is a has been based on last season, I guess that makes Bush a never was.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.

4. Running backs at 30 or older never do anything.

I guess someone forgot to tell that to Tiki Barber, who rushed for 1860 and 1662 yards the last two seasons on more than 5 YPC to go with approximately 500 receiving yards. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Warrick Dunn, who rushed for 1416 yards and 1140 yards the last two seasons, at 5 and 4 YPC. I guess someone forgot to tell that to Fred Taylor, who rushed for 1146 yards at 5 YPC last season. While a majority of backs are young, by no means is it a rule or requirement.

5. Why sign a reject that other teams didn't want?

Green Bay tried to re-sign him. Denver tried to sign him. The logic of "why sign so and so because so and so's old team let him go" can be applied to every free agent in the history of free agency. If you believe in that, why pursue anyone other than in the draft? Green had plenty of other suitors, but we offered the deal to get him here and he took it.

6. Why take another Packer or Bronco?

Yeah, I'm sure it's an obsession thing. Or maybe, just maybe, the Texans had a need at RB, and looked at all their options. They wanted someone with a proven track record - how's 6 out of 7 1,000 yard seasons sound? They wanted someone with experience behind a bad offensive line - how's the worst run-blocking OL in the league last season (Green Bay) sound? They wanted someone with experience with the zone blocking scheme - guess what Green Bay runs? They wanted someone with sound character to step up and be a leader - that's one thing Green is known for. They wanted someone to be a receiver out of the backfield - how does 46 catches at more than 8 YPC sound? Along with four seasons of 50 receptions or more? They wanted someone to step in for 2-3 seasons while a back for the future is developed via the draft - how's a 30 year old with about 2-3 really good years left in the tank sound?

Maybe it's not because they're obsessed with Packer running backs. Maybe it's because he's a really good fit. Think about it.

7. Why sign anyone so old? We're not going to contend in the next couple of years.

Yeah! That's the spirit! Don't even try in the next couple of years - that'll help build support for this franchise! Also, remember what happened the last time this team cut veteran leadership (Glenn and Sharper) and the dropoff that ensued when the team was put almost exclusively put in younger hands? Every team needs veteran leadership, particularly at skill positions, to direct the offense and help younger players. It's a vital part of building a team.

8. Why overpay for a 30-year old RB?

Well, first of all, running backs in the top five for the decade with 6 of 7 thousand-yard seasons (including last season) with good receiving skills don't come asking to play for the minimum. Secondly, this is the Houston Texans, not the Indianapolis Colts. This has been one of the worst teams in football for five years now. You think players are begging to play here? You have to pay a premium, change the culture, get some wins, and then potentially reap the rewards. It's a phase of rebuilding - either deal with it, or plan on rebuilding for a whole lot longer.



None of this is to say the signing is perfect - it certainly has its risks. But a few folks sound like they're complaining simply for the sake of complaining, rather than it being sound judgment and reasoning. These responses should answer some of the negativity.


Excellent post!

hollywood_texan
03-05-2007, 12:39 PM
The Ahman Green situation seems very similar to the Moulds situation of last year.

We should pull up the Moulds threads from this time last year and review all the optimism that didn't happen.

Remember this, most free agents signings don't pan out, and most 30 year-old backs have a serious fall in their production from previous years.

Green is a stop-back measure, I wouldn't be too surprised he is not a Texan this time next year.

As with most decisions made by Kubiak, a lot remains to be seen or proved.

DomDavis
03-05-2007, 12:42 PM
Thanks everybody... not much else to do at 2 in the morning. :) I thought of one more that I forgot to add to the list, and it's the response of "does this mean no Peterson?" To that, of course, the answer is that there probably wasn't any Peterson anyway. And if he falls, look at the elite teams last year (Colts, Bears, Saints, Patriots). They all had 2-back systems, and there's no way the Texans would pass up Peterson simply because they have Ahman Green. They could platoon them for a couple of years, much like the Saints and Deuce/Bush, and lengthen Peterson's career.

Also, that's one of Green's strengths - his ability to line up as a receiver. So, in theory, if we found another back, it should be very easy to use those two-back sets and keep Green in the game... something we might not have been able to do if we had taken somebody like Henry (non-receiver).

P.S. The Moulds situation didn't have all that much to do with Moulds being a bad player. It could've easily worked out. It didn't because 1) our offensive line usually didn't give enough time in pass blocking for Carr to go through progressions, usually either Andre or dump off and 2) on the occasions it did, for whatever reason, Carr still didn't utilize his secondary receivers. I don't think it was a situation of Moulds being too old as much as it was him being a victim of circumstances.

aj.
03-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Nicely done, DomDavis.

I will add that if Green can play two more seasons at his '06 level, he wasn't overpaid.

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2007, 12:56 PM
:doot: Agree, GREAT post! That's the kind of post I want to read. FACTS. It's nice to read something that I go away feeling good about. Thanks DD. Now I don't have to go "wash-out" my brain from the usual junk! :marionaner:

Your method of operation is eerily smiliar to a few other members - commenting on others posts and referring to member's opinions as junk while offering limited takes on the subject matter, but a lot of feedback on our members and their content.

Arky
03-05-2007, 01:09 PM
Good summary.

I'm not sure what I think about this acquistion. Ahman Green reminds me of, well, Domanick Davis/Williams at his best - similar abilities. If he can be the old Ahman for a couple of years, then it should turn out OK.

I drove to the store last night and the radio was on 610AM. Some national guys were talking about this - spent a few minutes on it. They didn't like the deal for all the negative reasons that have been mentioned and chalked it up to another wacky Texan move... :dontknowa

Meloy
03-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Congratulations Batman!! Ahman you got a good deal.

Ahman Green is a good consistent back. He does not whine or complain. If he says something needs to be corrected listen to him.

People will complain about this or that but he is a complete package. Not too big, not to slow. He can set up blocks by the line. He had a phrase in Green Bay- BYOB. Sometimes you have to Bring Your Own Blocker. He can run over, leap over, stiff arm, and fake defenders as needed.

While he is better than average at blitz pick up often he would chip and get into the pattern. If he did pick up the blitz a linebacker was also spying him which helped the open up the passing game. If the blitz did not come the occasional shovel pass worked well.

As a Packer fan I say Ahman Green's best attribute is versatility. He can do it all. The negative? He has asthma. When working on an 80 yard drive after 50 yards he might need a series off to catch his breath. It happened a lot at the edge of field goal range. He is a great locker room guy.

I don't know what the Packers were offering. 2 or 3 years??

The Packers got 7 years of great production by trading a 2nd round bust to the Seahawks for him. If the Texans get 3 good years of Batman it is a break even deal or better deal.

Expect 1100 yards rushing, 400-500 yards receiving, and several TD's where he is the decoy and another receiver is open. If it is third and short no one in the league is better. If it is 4th and 2 expect to go for it and get the 1st down.

I question the price tag. But it is gamble the Texans took and the Packers did not.Uh, guess I am the only to catch this but 80 yard drive? What is that? Does he play golf? Are you saying he might help us to have 80YARDS on a SINGLE DRIVE? In a football game? Whooeee!:aikido:

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 01:23 PM
We'll I hope you guys are correct. Four years ago I would of been excited. Looking at it now looks like more dead money on the cap waiting to happen. I guess some are a little more satified than others. Agreed Silver Oak, Moulds II. Ahmen isn't going to push back the saftys in the tampa II. He's not going to break off expolsive runs any more. We just waisted money to make the season ticket holders happy. Will elcipse P-burnt as the worst aquisition in franchise history. JMHO. The guy's been done for two seasons. Rep you way Hervoyel and Silver Oak.

Originally posted by Hervoyel
http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?p=614498#post614498

No problem man, I'm there for you, just don't pick the pipe back up.

Seriously I understand that when you look at Green's career and set it alongside what Ron Dayne has done it's a gross mismatch in favor of Green. That's impossible to deny and I'm not trying to convince anyone of it.

What I am trying to say is that each one of those yards that Green fans want to point to and be proud of is a yard he ain't going to run for as a Texan. The man has 8500 yards on him and his last two seasons ypc (3.3 and 4.0) have been the lowest totals in his long career. This is not something that improves with additional years.

Dayne on the other hand has never been used properly and for us that's a good thing because he needs to be fed the ball heavily to be successful. Nobody has done that to him since he got to the NFL (coincidentally at the same time Tiki Barber emerged). Now we could do it but of course we won't. We'll be splitting time with Ahman Green (if we even sign Dayne at all) and neither one of them will be effective. Green because he's on the downside and Dayne because he's getting 10-12 carries a game and can't get going.

This signing in my opinion hurts the Texans. Once the 2007 season is over I'll be around to gripe about it. Green probably won't though. He'll go the way of Eric Moulds and Stacy Mack. Riding off into the sunset with his signing bonus in hand and a big grin on his face.
__________________
No really it's ok, I'm taking it back.

disaacks3
03-05-2007, 01:28 PM
The Ahman Green situation seems very similar to the Moulds situation of last year.

We should pull up the Moulds threads from this time last year and review all the optimism that didn't happen.

Remember this, most free agents signings don't pan out, and most 30 year-old backs have a serious fall in their production from previous years.

Green is a stop-back measure, I wouldn't be too surprised he is not a Texan this time next year.

As with most decisions made by Kubiak, a lot remains to be seen or proved. True that there's some mighty big "IFS" here, but for the price and the structure of the contract, it doesn't seem like a bad deal. Is he our long-term fix? Not very likely, but he's certainly nice insurance to have at this point. If the Texans could find a way to snag AP, it'd be a fun one-two punch like we've never been able to see in Houston.

I do hope that we aren't looking at another "he's one of MY guys" things from Sherman...than again, AG has never been as injury-prone as Flanagan, and is much more proven than Gado.

The comment (bolded above) about Kubiak mystifies me...are there Free-Agent signings that don't HAVE to be seen or proven? Where do the coaches sign up for those? :tease:

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2007, 01:33 PM
We'll I hope you guys are correct. Four years ago I would of been excited. Looking at it now looks like more dead money on the cap waiting to happen. I guess some are a little more satified than others. Agreed Silver Oak, Moulds II. Ahmen isn't going to push back the saftys in the tampa II. He's not going to break off expolsive runs any more. We just waisted money to make the season ticket holders happy. Will elcipse P-burnt as the worst aqusition in franchise history. JMHO. The guy's been done for two seasons.

Noted. Since Green keeps his waist line in check, I do not believe we have wasted our money on this low risk high reward potential signing. He has six featured back years when you take out his first two years and his injury year, which was a torn quadricep and not knee related. Paying him a 6.5m signing bonus over four years is a perfect contract for this type of player.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12404

DomDavis
03-05-2007, 01:37 PM
We'll I hope you guys are correct. Four years ago I would of been excited. Looking at it now looks like more dead money on the cap waiting to happen. I guess some are a little more satified than others. Agreed Silver Oak, Moulds II. Ahmen isn't going to push back the saftys in the tampa II. He's not going to break off expolsive runs any more. We just waisted money to make the season ticket holders happy. Will elcipse P-burnt as the worst aqusition in franchise history. JMHO. The guy's been done for two seasons. Rep you way Hervoyel and Silver Oak.

Originally posted by Hervoyel
http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?p=614498#post614498

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about... when you whine that much without providing any evidence whatsoever, it makes you seem like you're doing it just to complain rather than doing so objectively.

He's been done for two seasons? He rushed for more than 1,000 yards and 4 YPC last season behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league. He has experience with the zone blocking scheme. He caught 46 passes at more than 8 YPC. He accumulated almost 1,500 total offensive yards from scrimmage on approximately 300 touches, more total yards and a higher yards per touch (rushing and receiving) than the vaunted Reggie Bush.

In what universe is that remotely close to being "done"?

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 01:44 PM
See, this is exactly what I'm talking about... when you whine that much without providing any evidence whatsoever, it makes you seem like you're doing it just to complain rather than doing so objectively.

He's been done for two seasons? He rushed for more than 1,000 yards and 4 YPC last season behind one of the worst offensive lines in the league. He has experience with the zone blocking scheme. He caught 46 passes at more than 8 YPC. He accumulated almost 1,500 total offensive yards from scrimmage on approximately 300 touches, more total yards and a higher yards per touch (rushing and receiving) than the vaunted Reggie Bush.

In what universe is that remotely close to being "done"?

So you're promising us that he's going to get 1500 yards and 300 touches this season ? You're projecting that he is going to duplicate those numbers ?

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2007, 01:46 PM
So you're promising us that he's going to get 1500 yards and 300 touches this season ? You're projecting that he is going to duplicate those numbers ?

The only year he did not do that was 2004 - 299 touches and 1,438 yards.

Please_Evolve
03-05-2007, 01:47 PM
We'll I hope you guys are correct. Four years ago I would of been excited. Looking at it now looks like more dead money on the cap waiting to happen. I guess some are a little more satified than others. Agreed Silver Oak, Moulds II. Ahmen isn't going to push back the saftys in the tampa II. He's not going to break off expolsive runs any more. We just waisted money to make the season ticket holders happy. Will elcipse P-burnt as the worst aqusition in franchise history. JMHO. The guy's been done for two seasons.

I think you'd feel a bit better if we worked on the line too. IMO this coupled with either a decent OL FA and/or picking up a good one or two in the draft i think this signing looks a lot better.

Just because a back can't break the 50 yard run doesn't mean that an offense can't be explosive. Terrell Davis in the Denver offense wasn't that 50 yrd break away back but that offense was still explosive and he broke the 2000 yd mark. Jerome Bettis for years wasn't the explosive guy but the offesne was still explosive with the gimmick plays. Much as I think the Seahawks have been overacheivers Shaun Alexander isn't that 50 yard explosion guy and he lead the league in rushing. Sure having that 50 yard big run is nice and it does help other aspects but it's not a neccesity in an explosive offense.

yes there are going to be some stop gap positions filled and ithink this fills hopefully a two year void. With an experienced back who does al lthe things you want out of back including something that Kubiak seemed high on and that is picking up the blitz. Other examples of stop gap performers being replaced by a player we've drafted is when we signed Sam Cowart at the MLB last year. Demeco falls to us in the second round and by the end of TC we had our new MLB for some time. Putzier was brought in as a guy who knew the offense and could stretch the middle of the field. A few games into the season Owens Daniels stepped in and now we gota pretty solid TE who just seems to find gaps in coverages. Maybe next year with more reps Lundy or Taylor can step in a give meaningful time...maybe and maybe not..but in the meantime we signed a solid back.

I know it's going to take time and after thigns settle with the knee jerk reactions it won't be that bad. In the meantime we're looking at Defensive help at LB and DL spots. Is an OL in the mix as well? i hope so becasue i think that would solidify this signing.

DomDavis
03-05-2007, 01:47 PM
So you're promising us that he's going to get 1500 yards and 300 touches this season ? You're projecting that he is going to duplicate those numbers ?

I have no idea. But you're subtly trying to change the subject. You said he's been "done" for two seasons. Answer my question: do those numbers indicate a player who is "done"?

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 01:47 PM
The only year he did not do that was 2004 - 299 touches and 1,438 yards.

Damn right he's not. And thanks for the help there KT.

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 01:48 PM
I have no idea. But you're subtly trying to change the subject. You said he's been "done" for two seasons. Answer my question: do those numbers indicate a player who is "done"?

Yep:

Chuck Foreman: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/ForeCh00.htm
Lawerance McCutcheon:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/McCuLa00.htm
Earl Camble: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/CampEa00.htm
Marcus Allen:http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/AlleMa00.htm

Ahmen Green http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/GreeAh00.htm

the common thread they hit a thousand carries...they ain't got it no more. They run out of steam.

Porky
03-05-2007, 01:48 PM
So you're promising us that he's going to get 1500 yards and 300 touches this season ? You're projecting that he is going to duplicate those numbers ?

So, you're promising he wont get this numbers nextr year? That he cannot possibly duplicate those numbers?

DomDavis
03-05-2007, 01:49 PM
Yep

So can you give me statistical numbers for a productive running back who isn't done? If almost 1,500 on around 300 touches means you're done, what kind of productivity does a back need to not be done, and thus, in the prime of his career?

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 01:56 PM
So can you give me statistical numbers for a productive running back who isn't done? If almost 1,500 on around 300 touches means you're done, what kind of productivity does a back need to not be done, and thus, in the prime of his career?

155 attemps. 565 yards. 3.6 ypc. 18yds longest run. 6 TD's. 0 20+ runs.

That's what every running back should be compared to...since he is the best running back ever.

first person with a name gets a gold star!

Hervoyel
03-05-2007, 01:57 PM
I think this is going to turn out badly for the Texans but I admire the post DomDavis. It was a good argument for the signing and I hope you are right. I have doubts about his ability to continue to play at that high a level. You mentioned some backs who had success and demonstrated durability after 30 years of age but I know I don't need to remind you that the list of backs who started to slide post-30 is far longer.

I sure hope you are right but I can't escape the feeling that we should have re-signed Dayne and bypassed a free agent RB.

(and yes I know Dayne was also a free agent. I believe he could have been had far cheaper than Green or Henry however)

Please_Evolve
03-05-2007, 01:58 PM
155 attemps. 565 yards. 3.6 ypc. 18yds longest run. 6 TD's. 0 20+ runs.

That's what every running back should be compared to...since he is the best running back ever.

first person with a name gets a gold star!


Ron Dayne Last year?

Errant Hothy
03-05-2007, 02:01 PM
155 attemps. 565 yards. 3.6 ypc. 18yds longest run. 6 TD's. 0 20+ runs.

That's what every running back should be compared to...since he is the best running back ever.

first person with a name gets a gold star!

Those are Reggie Bush's rushing stats.

Hervoyel
03-05-2007, 02:03 PM
Ron Dayne Last year?


Nope, Dayne outperformed that and only started 6 games.

Hell Dayne almost topped that in his four game stretch at the end of the year. He's talking about "The Blessed One" from New Orleans Reggie Bush.

Kaiser Toro
03-05-2007, 02:03 PM
155 attemps. 565 yards. 3.6 ypc. 18yds longest run. 6 TD's. 0 20+ runs.

That's what every running back should be compared to...since he is the best running back ever.

first person with a name gets a gold star!

Reggie Bush

jerek
03-05-2007, 02:03 PM
I'd suggest we should be cautiously optimistic about this acquisition. Even at 30, I think Green instantly becomes the best back in Texans history. I'd guess he'll be good for at least 1,300 yards from scrimmage and 15-17 TDs. His superstar years are probably behind him but he is still our first dangerous, legitimate, proven threat in the backfield. As has been noted, he is very versatile and appears to be be a good attitude to boot.

Though it disappoints me in that this move pretty well signals we have absolutely no intention of pursuing AP, I think that is also simply being realistic, as I never could make myself believe we'd land AP without a costly trade-up. Hopefully this means we will be focusing on drafting Landry as an instant, significant upgrade to our weak secondary.

Furthermore, unlike Moulds, whose lack of success and subsequent cut I would also tie to David Carr's lack of performance, I think Ahman will force opponents to respect our run and actually allow David Carr to be better as a result.

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 02:03 PM
Those are Reggie Bush's rushing stats.

:ohsnap:

blockhead83
03-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Eclipse P-Burnt as the worst signing in franchise history? Are you crazy? We could cut him tomorrow, and the cap hit we'd take wouldn't be as painful as the lost 2nd and 3rd round draft choices we gave up for a player who didn't give us jack squat on the field.

The contract is a little rich for the player we're getting, but it's free agency and we're the Texans, what did you expect? It's only a four year deal and 6.5 in guarantees isn't that unpalatable. Green still has some tread on the tires and barring injury he can get us some good production for the next few years until we have another back who's ready to step in.

El Tejano
03-05-2007, 02:07 PM
I talked to a friend of mine who is a GB fan. He told me that we just got one darn good back.

He mentioned that one thing GB is going to miss is his ability to block and pick up blitzes. Last year, both Lundy and Taylor could not block and many times found themselves getting over powered.

He also mentioned that having Green means more 1st downs on 3rd down. He mentioned that Green has some of the best 2nd effort runs but most importantly is awesome catching out of the backfield and making things happen on his own and teams will have to account for that. That's not bad if we are keeping David Carr who is the best QB to throw to a RB.

I mentioned that he is old. He told me that he still has break away speed and referred to a game against Miami in which he broke off a 70 yard TD run. We've never had a back that had that kind of big play ability. DW when he was DD was never able to finish off any of his long runs with a TD, Dayne can't out run nobody and Wali and Chris are only Wali and Chris.

thunderkyss
03-05-2007, 02:09 PM
Agreed Silver Oak, Moulds II. Ahmen isn't going to push back the saftys in the tampa II. He's not going to break off expolsive runs any more.

Nobody picks up a running back to "push back the safeties" in the Tampa II. You want your running back to bring those safeties closer to the LOS, allowing your receivers to get behind those safeties easier.

Paying him a 6.5m signing bonus over four years is a perfect contract for this type of player.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12404

As part of a $23million deal.. (23-6.5=16.5/4=4.125)+(6.5/4=1.65)=$5.75million cap hit at worse, and what?? $3.65 million at best.

I have no problem with Green, but I'd like to see more details in his contract to say whether or not we've got a good deal.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-05-2007, 02:26 PM
I read they frontloaded the contract and Green's cap number will be 8 mil this season.

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 02:30 PM
I read they frontloaded the contract and Green's cap number will be 8 mil this season.

Dang! well if we're not going to get much else...why not...that will really relieve us for the future.

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 02:48 PM
So can you give me statistical numbers for a productive running back who isn't done? If almost 1,500 on around 300 touches means you're done, what kind of productivity does a back need to not be done, and thus, in the prime of his career?

No the point I'm tring to make and Herv is making much better...as with o-lineman, they 've only got so many hits and carries in the bank. They hit thirty...it's time to move on. So Smith and Kubes...and you disagrees with me. I do not know what the thought process was on the deal. I do know that this is not anything to get excited about. I do not dislike Ahman Green. Have in fact won money with him in Fantasy Fottball. But, I've seen this story enough over forty years to know that the odds of him making through a sixteen game season, even at 200 attempts are not good. So we want to argue what that worth to us in our situation with the cap is today...don't post he's going to replicate those numbers, behind this line. It's a stop gap move with a named palyer at best. If that makes the season ticket holders happy ok. You post more than that you're setting up Texans fans for another bad heart ache. The odds and history are on myside, not yours.

real
03-05-2007, 02:54 PM
I do not know what the thought process was on the deal.

I think the thought process was trying to sign a GOOD RB, but at the same time allowing our Younger backs (Gado, Lundy, Taylor) to have a chance to prove themselves. Maybe they like what they saw out of Taylor and Lundy, and felt like they'd give those guys a couple years to develop before they went after a dominant top flight back...

Build the defense through the draft, and get an infusion of talent on one side of the ball, and use Free Agency as a stop gap for the other...It allows us to still be competitive while we build the foundation for the team...the defense....Lool how long a defense can be dominant compared to a RB...Good defenses last years, while RB's can be great one year and poor the next...

It doesn't make any sense to get a great young back right now when we aren't built to win just yet....That'd be like Barry Sanders wasting all those good years on a bad team...Or Larry Johnson in KC...or Edgerrin James on the defenseless Colts...or DD on the Texans...LT is great for the Chargers right now because they have the team around him...If they didn't he'd just be another good back on a poor team....RB's only have so much life in them so it makes sense to get an older Veteran who can teach our young guys so that we can have a solid foundation for years to come.

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 02:56 PM
sounds good to me that he can block...i think that was a big reason why they signed him.

also i've read that he really is quite healthy. that he really takes care of himself healthwise.

In all honesty, was there a better option out there for us? any FA RB's that would have been better? Trade up for AP in the draft? take lynch at 8?

I like this because not every decision can be long term, this opens up the draft for us.

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 03:02 PM
I think the thought process was trying to sign a GOOD RB, but at the same time allowing our Younger backs (Gado, Lundy, Taylor) to have a chance to prove themselves. Maybe they like what they saw out of Taylor and Lundy, and felt like they'd give those guys a couple years to develop before they went after a dominant top flight back...

Build the defense through the draft, and get an infusion of talent on one side of the ball, and use Free Agency as a stop gap for the other...It allows us to still be competitive while we build the foundation for the team...the defense....Lool how long a defense can be dominant compared to a RB...

It doesn't make any sense to get a great young back right now when we aren't built to win just yet..That'd be like Barry Sanders wasting all those good years on a bad team...RB's only have so much life in them so it makes sense to get an older Veteran who can teach our young guys so that we can have a solid foundation for years to come.

I agree at the time GB made the deal to move him out of Seattle that was a good deal. If he's bring him in as a player coach fine. That is not what his original post insinuated. It infered that the guy was in fact our #1 back and that his production levels would not fall off.

3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career.


That inference that he will eclipse the numbers of Travis Henry is a reach. He is thirty. He has banged the rock over twelve hundred times. He has sustainded a major leg injury. He IS over thirty. Nice post and all...but don't pee down my boot and tell me it's raining.


this is ecatly the kind of stuff I'm talking about:

http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?p=615236#post615236

You're whiping them up for sure Dom. As i posted, I just hope you're correct.

DomDavis
03-05-2007, 03:22 PM
No the point I'm tring to make and Herv is making much better...as with o-lineman, they 've only got so many hits and carries in the bank. They hit thirty...it's time to move on. So Smith and Kubes...and you disagrees with me. I do not know what the thought process was on the deal. I do know that this is not anything to get excited about. I do not dislike Ahman Green. Have in fact won money with him in Fantasy Fottball. But, I've seen this story enough over forty years to know that the odds of him making through a sixteen game season, even at 200 attempts are not good. So we want to argue what that worth to us in our situation with the cap is today...don't post he's going to replicate those numbers, behind this line. It's a stop gap move with a named palyer at best. If that makes the season ticket holders happy ok. You post more than that you're setting up Texans fans for another bad heart ache. The odds and history are on myside, not yours.

The Green Bay line is as bad in run blocking or worse than ours. As for productivity suddenly stopping at 30, Tiki Barber, Fred Taylor, Warrick Dunn, and several others last season seem to disagree with you.

Double Barrel
03-05-2007, 03:32 PM
Great first post, DomDavis. This thread is one I'll be e-mailing my buddies who have questions about Green. Good job! :thumbup

real
03-05-2007, 03:36 PM
I agree at the time GB made the deal to move him out of Seattle that was a good deal. If he's bring him in as a player coach fine. That is not what his original post insinuated. It infered that the guy was in fact our #1 back and that his production levels would not fall off.



That inference that he will eclipse the numbers of Travis Henry is a reach. He is thirty. He has banged the rock over twelve hundred times. He has sustainded a major leg injury. He IS over thirty. Nice post and all...but don't pee down my boot and tell me it's raining.


this is ecatly the kind of stuff I'm talking about:

http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?p=615236#post615236

You're whiping them up for sure Dom. As i posted, I just hope you're correct.

I wasn't really referencing the original post of this thread...

Moreso, the statement of your I highlighted...

Meloy
03-05-2007, 03:53 PM
Smith/Kubes identified a need for a running back that can carry more of a load. 2 ways to get one. Free agency or draft. Draft ain't here yet so we do not know what will be done. The probabilities of who will be drafted by which team has changed and may again. Green seems to be the best available free agent rb. He is just as likely to have a good 2 years (and that is all expected) as not. We still do not know the cap hit for 2007 & that will effect the poll of good or bad pick up. I am glad that a recognized area is being addressed. To pick up a starter in F/A at any position has to be a plus. RB down, LT, LB, WR, CB and safety to go. We have five high draft selections and the same amount of cap space before the Green signing (AJ's saved $6m) to address these 5 spots. It is still early. And then there are the June cuts to pick up depth.

wolfscar
03-05-2007, 03:59 PM
Browsing this board and a few of the Chronicle blogs, it seems there are a lot of folks who love to whine for the sake of whining without actually understanding the subject of what they're arguing. So, I figured it'd be good to have a single thread to dismiss most of these lies.
.......

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou. There's a heck of a lot of crotchety old women on these boards - it's nice to hear from someone who actually looks at the situation before exploding into their habitual knee-jerk response.

What would be our dream fit at RB? How about this: Someone who's not another shot in the dark; someone who is proven, durable, mature, a good run blocker, a good receiver, a damn good runner and a veteran who can provide leadership to our relatively young offense. Ticks every box, for me. No, I'm not saying he's the future of the franchise, but he could definitely be a keystone to lean our offense on while we develop our young talent (which we have a lot of at that position).

Of course, that's the other thing that Green brings us. He brings us a role model for Lundy, Taylor and Gado. A guy who knows what he's talking about and will help them bring their own skills to the fore.

I, for one, am delighted with this signing. Sure it cost us, but for the mix of tangible skills and intangible benefits Green brings us I don't think we could have done a whole lot better.

AlbinoRat
03-05-2007, 04:08 PM
Green adds depth to an underachieving core of backs. Davis and Green have done well when they play, but they haven't lived up to their potential. JMO. Also Ron Dayne, former Heisman winner, never got a decent season. I think this is very beneficial incase we can't get Peterson (which i suspect we won't) and allows us to fill other needs. He loves to play runs hard, his production is limited because of the Packers decline since the old glory days. He may do well in a new environment, I guess we'll see eh?

TommyS
03-05-2007, 04:29 PM
"3. Why not Travis Henry?

Because Henry averaged 3.5 YPC in 2004, 3.8 in 2005, and 2.7 in 2006 until VY showed up, when his YPC instantly shot up. Coincidence? I think not. Henry looked poor for three consecutive seasons, until he was able to benefit from the zone read scheme that made linebackers a step slow because they had to account for the possibility of Young faking the handoff and keeping it himself. Second, want to talk injury prone? That label applies to Henry - a guy with multiple nagging injuries - moreso than it does to Green, a durable player with one significant injury his entire career."


why not Travis Henry?

guaranteed 12 million over 5 years, thats why.

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/10033511

thunderkyss
03-05-2007, 05:21 PM
Smith/Kubes identified a need for a running back that can carry more of a load. 2 ways to get one. Free agency or draft. Draft ain't here yet so we do not know what will be done. The probabilities of who will be drafted by which team has changed and may again. Green seems to be the best available free agent rb.

Good post. I agree, Green is an instant starter who can play on every down. Hopefully, he'll help get Gado, Lundy, & Taylor up to that stage in their career in the next 2 years.


Scout.com (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=64&p=9&c=12&yr=2007&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=11) has Ahman rated as the 6th best RB in FA(Travis Henry wasn't a FA when they did their ranking) behind Dominic Rhodes, Chris Brown, Correll Buckhalter, Michael Turner, and B.J. Sams.

While I like the prospect of Michael Turner, in all honesty, Ahman is just as probable to rush for over 1000 yards in '07 as Turner or Dominc does, being that he's done it several times again in his recent past.

& he's just as likely to stay Healthy as Henry, Buckhalter, or Brown, again because of his history.

True he's 30 years old, but that age isn't a magic number where production just starts falling off.

ArlingtonTexan
03-05-2007, 05:37 PM
Good post. I agree, Green is an instant starter who can play on every down. Hopefully, he'll help get Gado, Lundy, & Taylor up to that stage in their career in the next 2 years.


Scout.com (http://scout.scout.com/a.z?s=64&p=9&c=12&yr=2007&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=11) has Ahman rated as the 6th best RB in FA(Travis Henry wasn't a FA when they did their ranking) behind Dominic Rhodes, Chris Brown, Correll Buckhalter, Michael Turner, and B.J. Sams.

While I like the prospect of Michael Turner, in all honesty, Ahman is just as probable to rush for over 1000 yards in '07 as Turner or Dominc does, being that he's done it several times again in his recent past.

& he's just as likely to stay Healthy as Henry, Buckhalter, or Brown, again because of his history.

True he's 30 years old, but that age isn't a magic number where production just starts falling off.

Yep...the one thing that Green buys the Texans is time. He gives you a more trustworthy option than Ron Dayne who also gives the coaching staff to figure out if one the 3 young guys is capable or find a good prospect in the draft. Is he the player he was 4 years ago, probably not, but is this now a position where there is a solid professional player. We don't have enough of those.

real
03-05-2007, 05:40 PM
Yep...the one thing that Green buys the Texans is time. He gives you a more trustworthy option than Ron Dayne who also gives the coaching staff to figure out if one the 3 young guys is capable or find a good prospect in the draft. Is he the player he was 4 years ago, probably not, but is this now a position where there is a solid professional player. We don't have enough of those.I think the thought process was trying to sign a GOOD RB, but at the same time allowing our Younger backs (Gado, Lundy, Taylor) to have a chance to prove themselves. Maybe they like what they saw out of Taylor and Lundy, and felt like they'd give those guys a couple years to develop before they went after a dominant top flight back...

Build the defense through the draft, and get an infusion of talent on one side of the ball, and use Free Agency as a stop gap for the other...It allows us to still be competitive while we build the foundation for the team...the defense....Lool how long a defense can be dominant compared to a RB...Good defenses last years, while RB's can be great one year and poor the next...

It doesn't make any sense to get a great young back right now when we aren't built to win just yet....That'd be like Barry Sanders wasting all those good years on a bad team...Or Larry Johnson in KC...or Edgerrin James on the defenseless Colts...or DD on the Texans...LT is great for the Chargers right now because they have the team around him...If they didn't he'd just be another good back on a poor team....RB's only have so much life in them so it makes sense to get an older Veteran who can teach our young guys so that we can have a solid foundation for years to come.


Great minds think alike

TwinSisters
03-05-2007, 09:32 PM
155 attemps. 565 yards. 3.6 ypc. 18yds longest run. 6 TD's. 0 20+ runs.

That's what every running back should be compared to...since he is the best running back ever.

first person with a name gets a gold star!

Don't forget that Reggie was a slot back/slot wr.

88 catches 742 yards 8.4 yc 74 long 5:20+ 2:40+ 32 First Downs
( this tops Green's best seasons or is just right above them )

that's a bit more than Eric Moulds our #2 WR

57 catches 557 yards 9.8 yc 29 long 6:20+ 0:40+ 33 First Downs

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 10:12 PM
Don't forget that Reggie was a slot back/slot wr.



Oh I didn't forget at all. If we wanted that we woulda got it. But we don't want that. We want the RB that can run up the middle for decent yardage every down..and pound it through the game..controlling the TOP.

please see Ron Dayne and Ahman Green.

I think Bush is a tremendous athlete but the thing I hate is when he gets a 12 yard gain one play....and then the very next gets tackled for a 9 yard loss.

TwinSisters
03-05-2007, 10:41 PM
I think Bush is a tremendous athlete but the thing I hate is when he gets a 12 yard gain one play....and then the very next gets tackled for a 9 yard loss.

:D

Must've watched the 90's Lions with your eyes closed.

kastofsna
03-06-2007, 09:09 AM
good post. green is a good player, and there's no reason to think he can't gain 1200 yards easily.

ib4texans
03-06-2007, 02:39 PM
Green signed essentially the same deal that Fred Taylor signed to extend his contract with the Jags.

I don't know about y'all but I'd much rather have Green then Taylor.




Especially since we don't even have a Maurice Jones-Drew!