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David's Busted Carr
03-03-2007, 10:39 AM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

alphajoker
03-03-2007, 10:51 AM
If we could really just get some continuity on the OL, I think you could be right? Have we ever had a full season in our brief little history of having all five starters play from week 1 to week 16?

mike230765
03-03-2007, 11:00 AM
If Adrian Peterson does not fall to #8 in the draft then I hope that we get Brown in the first since Thomas will be gone. Whatever quaterback we have starting this year will benefit from an extra second or two that a good o-line man can provide him. Hopefully it will let the recievers have time to get some seperation or get a step on a defender going for the long ball.

Runner
03-03-2007, 11:04 AM
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
Salaam - great backup T insurance


Flannigan hurt rings truer than Salaam great.

HuttoKarl
03-03-2007, 11:10 AM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...


If we drafted Levi Brown, Brandon Merriwether or Aaron Ross (Kick returner and solid CB), and Samson Satele, we'd have the makings of a much-improved O-Line and secondary.

TexanFan881
03-03-2007, 11:19 AM
I agree, I think all the offensive line needs is some more playing time together. They will get better, they just need a chance without constantly switching things up.

HuttoKarl
03-03-2007, 11:21 AM
Some "sleepers" according to Len Pastabelly, that could pay off for their price:

Damion McIntosh OT
Sean Mahan C/OG
Jordan Black OT
Al Johnson C
Alfonso Boone DT
Travis Fisher CB

All come with some issues, but all would satisfy a Houston need.

I'll still hold out for Gandy though. :shades:

mj.
03-03-2007, 11:45 AM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

I agree that we should really consider drafting Levi Brown (along with Landry, Lynch, or a DL).

However, I still don't understand how David Carr gets ripped for having 5 years to succeed and failing, but MicKinney, Weary, and Pitts get labeled "solid". These guys have been constants on some of the worst pass-blocking O-lines in history!!

I'm not saying "just cut/trade them" like DC, but we need to look get our replacements for these guys now. Looking at the current roster isn't pretty.

Flanagan, at best, was a stop gap due to his age.
Hodgdon proved that he couldn't handle the pivot after Flanagan got hurt.

Thanks to the Babin and P-Buc trades we haven't had the middle round picks to draft good interior linemen. These trades were the biggets mistakes of the Casserly era, because not only did the players not live up to the price we paid, but the cost us 4 picks in the we could have used on future starters and/or quality depth.

This year's draft has a number of solid interior lineman that can be had in the middle rounds. We should definitely be looking to add at least 2 (like we did at tackle last year), if we a truly committed to fixing this mess we call our offensive line.

David's Busted Carr
03-03-2007, 11:55 AM
Funny how the Oline gets the blame for ALL the sacks Carr has taken, but alot of those sacks are on CARR. He takes way too long to get rid of the ball and in some cases just runs around back there like a chicken with his head cut off.

In fact I was watching an NFL insider show once and it compared the time of the release of a bunch of NFL QBs. Most of them were at 3-4 seconds and the ball was GONE. With Carr 6-7-8 and he's still running around with the ball. I'm sorry, but even the best OL can't block those HUGE defensive lineman forever!

thunderkyss
03-03-2007, 12:46 PM
I agree that we should really consider drafting Levi Brown (along with Landry, Lynch, or a DL).

However, I still don't understand how David Carr gets ripped for having 5 years to succeed and failing, but MicKinney, Weary, and Pitts get labeled "solid". These guys have been constants on some of the worst pass-blocking O-lines in history!!

I'm not saying "just cut/trade them" like DC, but we need to look get our replacements for these guys now. Looking at the current roster isn't pretty.

Flanagan, at best, was a stop gap due to his age.
Hodgdon proved that he couldn't handle the pivot after Flanagan got hurt.

Thanks to the Babin and P-Buc trades we haven't had the middle round picks to draft good interior linemen. These trades were the biggets mistakes of the Casserly era, because not only did the players not live up to the price we paid, but the cost us 4 picks in the we could have used on future starters and/or quality depth.

This year's draft has a number of solid interior lineman that can be had in the middle rounds. We should definitely be looking to add at least 2 (like we did at tackle last year), if we a truly committed to fixing this mess we call our offensive line.

I agree, for the most part. I don't think Pitts & Weary are all that... They aren't bad, but not where they should be.

I like Levi Brown..... he looks like a ZBS LT. But I don't know if we should spend a first on him.

Denver just traded the only OLman they've drafted in the first round in over a decade, which tells me it's possible to get quality LTs for this system in later rounds(as if Spencer wasn't enough evidence). It's even possble to find quality players for this system as undrafted free agents, like Eric Pears who was undrafted out of Colorado state in 2005, and started the last 10 games in 2006 for Denver, at LT. Tom Nalen... 7th round draft pick, who started 183 of 189 games since 1994, at Center. 4th round pick Ben Hamilton who's started every game since 2002 at LG.

threetoedpete
03-03-2007, 01:10 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...


That would be something completly different.

I guess you and McClain shared a doobie this morning and figgured out the '07 season. So what makes you think with this group you're going to get any more production...protection, than you got last year ? Kubiak and Smith are spinning our cap woes this moring, the wooing of two thiry somethings and a broke backed WR as positive signs that we're ok. I thought the turn about by the chronicles writters this morning was prety astounding myself. They didn't get this from no where. Someone is feeding them this. I just wish they'd come out and say it...we sux, we're in bad shape with the cap, and untill we take a season in the short hairs and get the cap monster in controll, it's pretty much going to be the same deal next year with wins and results. And yes chicken little the clouds are around our ears this morning. The proof is in the amount of spin. There are far too many holes in the rooster to get them all fixed in one off season. One part of the equation for some appears to be solved this morning...DC is moving on. The next part is what do you do with which hole(s) and when. The trouble for me is if they are spinning these free agents into starked improvements for the team...what else in their spin is just about as trust worthy ? The caliber of tallent on the o-line maybe ? What is shocking to me this morning is there are still some who'll be spoon feed the drivel and believe it. Mind Boggeling. The second clue is they are reporting this morning that they will go after one maybe two OTs in the draft. That reads to me that they are going to shot gun the OTs the second day and hope that they hit one.

The good news, that this is a great class to move down with in the draft. There is a lot of speed on the boards. A lot of tallent at every position between 8 and 141. It is conceivable that they fill four more holes this draft. That would put us closer to where everyone wants them to be.

nunusguy
03-03-2007, 01:35 PM
FWIW, the Chrons John McClain said yesterday on SR 610 that the Texans
have decided they are happy with Eric Winston as their RT after his play in
the latter part of last season, and expect him to be their guy at RT in 2007.
And I think we are in good shape in the interior, though starting to get long in the tooth for the future and more depth would be nice. And I'm not against upgrades if we can find it in our budget ?
But the big concern, as has been our history, is LT. And with the uncertainty
about the recovery from injury of last years LT Spencer, there is more of the
same for the future.

thunderkyss
03-03-2007, 01:41 PM
That would be something completly different.

I guess you and McClain shared a doobie this morning and figgured out the '07 season. So what makes you think with this group you're going to get any more production...protection, than you got last year ?

I'd be happy with last year's protection. As a team, we gave up 43 sacks. I'd like better, but we could expect a winning season with 43.

Dallas & Cincy gave up 37 & 36 sacks, and managed to get into the playoffs. Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks, and they finished 8-8. So did St Louis(although in the NFC), and Seattle with 49 sacks won their division at 9-7, again in the NFC, and in a weak division.

I think the gap is closing in the AFC South. Indy won the SuperBowl, but they weren't the dominating team they used to be, and only went 3-3 in this division in '06.

& we are a lot closer to Jacksonville & Tennessee than many people want to admit.

Double Barrel
03-03-2007, 01:43 PM
The offensive line has been guilty, for five years straight, of making an elite Hall of Fame QB look bad.

How you can possibly prop them will get you the evil eye from fans of a certain QB. Tow the company line now, because it's always the offensive line's fault. :winky:

Sorry, my inner sarcasm got the best of me. Please carry on with a great thread.

t_flare
03-03-2007, 01:52 PM
Winston- played like a rookie his first 2 games but played better toward the end. I think he will be RG next year.

Weary- Average if best. He will be replace.

Flangan- Worst play this season from start to his injury. I see him being cut.

Mckinney- Played good when he played. Should be consider starting next year if they resign him.

Pitts- Started off poorly but was very consistant in the 2nd half of the Season.

Spencers- Unknown... good when he played but didnt play much and how will we come back from injury?

They are below average overall last year. They started off slow and with injuries did the best they could. I see them drafting or signing a LT, Pitts, Mckinney, Winston and Spencer (if healthy)

threetoedpete
03-03-2007, 01:53 PM
I'd be happy with last year's protection. As a team, we gave up 43 sacks. I'd like better, but we could expect a winning season with 43.

Dallas & Cincy gave up 37 & 36 sacks, and managed to get into the playoffs. Pittsburgh gave up 49 sacks, and they finished 8-8. So did St Louis(although in the NFC), and Seattle with 49 sacks won their division at 9-7, again in the NFC, and in a weak division.

I think the gap is closing in the AFC South. Indy won the SuperBowl, but they weren't the dominating team they used to be, and only went 3-3 in this division in '06.
& we are a lot closer to Jacksonville & Tennessee than many people want to admit.

It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still. They can protect ther QB, we however can not. Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.
It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.

So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?

run-david-run
03-03-2007, 02:17 PM
Funny how the Oline gets the blame for ALL the sacks Carr has taken, but alot of those sacks are on CARR. He takes way too long to get rid of the ball and in some cases just runs around back there like a chicken with his head cut off.

In fact I was watching an NFL insider show once and it compared the time of the release of a bunch of NFL QBs. Most of them were at 3-4 seconds and the ball was GONE. With Carr 6-7-8 and he's still running around with the ball. I'm sorry, but even the best OL can't block those HUGE defensive lineman forever!

So those 6, 7, and 8 second plays was the reason we switched to the "one step drop" offense in 2005? I think the next time this offensive line gives 8 seconds of protection will be the first. I realize Carr is as hated a figure as any recent athlete in Houston sports, but lets not make up lies about the rest of the team to better fit our ideas that DC is the only thing wrong with the Texans. This offensive line broke Carr, not the other way around.

HJam72
03-03-2007, 02:26 PM
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!

potisyourfriend
03-03-2007, 02:33 PM
If we can stay somewhat healthy they could be good enough. But what we really need is a bad@ss Running Back and not Lundy/Dayne...

thunderkyss
03-03-2007, 02:41 PM
It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...

I see... But it's ok for you to interject that Vince will get speed at the reciever position??

Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still.

We weren't the only ones to upset them??
Colts are aging??
cap numbers getting to them??

Sounds like you agree with me, that they aren't as dominating as they once were.


They can protect ther QB, we however can not.

We don't even know who our QB will be.... how do you know we can't protect him??

Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.

this is the part I was talking about with you interjecting about things you have no clue... who will be starting in our secondary?? & who is this "speed" the Titans will acquire.

It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.

Did I say anything about sweeping the Jags?? did I even say we'll go 3-3 in our division?? there you go interjecting again

So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?

$2mill on the high end, why, you looking for a job??

thunderkyss
03-03-2007, 02:43 PM
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!

But Freeney didn't get any sacks on David this year. Not one. Not even a hit, or a hurry.

Insideop
03-03-2007, 03:06 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:
Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

Yes, there is some talent there, but there are alot of question marks and if's there too! I think it's going to take more than just drafting a LT in this draft. We need depth at every position on the line, and we need to bring in young talent to start developing behind some of the older linemen. I'm not saying we need to fix everything in this years draft, but finding a LT and/or a Center sure would help.

I think Kubes and Smith realize they need some stability and depth on the O-line to get it to work like a "well oiled machine" like they have in Denver. And, I think the selection last year of Flanagan and Salaam in FA and Spencer and Winston in the draft was just the beginning of what they plan on doing. They knew they would have to get FA's like Salaam and Flanagan as a "stop-gap" until they are able to get the O-linemen they need through the draft that will solidify the line for years to come.

I still think they have a way to go before we have a line like Denver or Indy. It just takes time and some good drafts. I can't wait to see who they get this year to continue filling in the pieces of the O-line puzzle! JMHO!

Double Barrel
03-03-2007, 03:10 PM
But Freeney didn't get any sacks on David this year. Not one. Not even a hit, or a hurry.

And it's all the offensive line's fault!! :secret:

Goldeagle
03-03-2007, 04:08 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...


Winston was not impressive
Weary was average at best
Flannigan has not been healthy for 3 years now
McKinney sucks
Pitts cannot pick up a simple stunt
Salaam was horrible
Spencer is a ???


Trading down to get Brown would be a nice selection. It would be nice to get Kalil the C from USC or one of the guards in the draft (Sears or the BIG guy from UT).

steelbtexan
03-03-2007, 04:31 PM
i would like to see us trade carr for a 3rd
rd1 dl
rd2 cb
carr trade up rd2 staley or ugoh
rd3 beck or kolb
rd4 bpa

Cruuuuuuuz
03-03-2007, 06:21 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

hahaha...thanks for the good laugh...YES..the Oline sucks and so does Carr...Hey, but atleast they suck in different ways!
That seems to be the problem...we need a new QB, Joe Thomas, and an RB...ANYBODY KNOW HOW TO GET THOSE THINGS?

Texans Horror
03-03-2007, 06:28 PM
While time will help this team - they are all learning the ZBS, Kubes will draft one or two more linemen this year to train up on the system. I hope for a tackle and a center. It's not a question of missing pieces so much as building towards the system. For that reason, Flanagan, Salaam, and McKinney's days are numbered. It may be one season, it may be two, but once Kubes has his new line, they will be gone.

Cruuuuuuuz
03-03-2007, 06:34 PM
Agreed.

threetoedpete
03-03-2007, 06:53 PM
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!

Yes and I can't understand how people can dismiss it out of hand when the two common inter twined factors ARE the offensive line and the QB.
shall we post the list of busts one more time just for you Ham...Riley, Wand, Tucker, Wade, and Bosselli. One for each year. None currently starting anywhere for anyone. I mean you can tell me the emperor has no clothes on only for so long before I get the fact that there were no clothes for the emperior to put on in the first place. Hasn't been for five years. Yeah the guys naked . But he got that way for a reason. I get it. And you will too Ham in '07 if we do what they say there going to do. DC by all indications will now be absent and out of the equation. The only question that will remain is who you guys are going to point at and scream about then ? Inquiring minds wish to know.

Runner
03-04-2007, 03:01 AM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be?
I think it's just you. :)

For the vast majority of last year we couldn't run or pass. The running atttack in the last couple of games were the aberration, not the normal. The o-line should shoulder it's share of blame for that. The Texans need major upgrades on the line and have needed them for quite some time.

Familiarity with the names on the line may be comforting, but it won't improve their performance.

The Pencil Neck
03-04-2007, 03:54 AM
I think it's just you. :)

For the vast majority of last year we couldn't run or pass. The running atttack in the last couple of games were the aberration, not the normal. The o-line should shoulder it's share of blame for that. The Texans need major upgrades on the line and have needed them for quite some time.


I disagree with the statement that we couldn't run for the vast majority of last year. At least in the last half of the season, our running game was OK. Not great, but serviceable. Sure, we got skunked in the Jets game but that was the only really bad running game we had in the last part of the season. I think that's the only game we got less than 100 yards in the running game in the last half of the season.

The league average was about 35-36 sacks. We gave up 43. If you subtract the plays where Carr sacked himself, our line (and running backs) probably gave up an average number of sacks.

Overall, I think our line is only slightly below average. It's not a great line. I'd love to see us add some players and make it a strength of the team. But I think a lot of people use the line's play as an excuse for other problems. It HAS been bad in our history but it wasn't the problem last year.

Runner
03-04-2007, 08:39 AM
I think that's the only game we got less than 100 yards in the running game in the last half of the season.

The league average was about 35-36 sacks. We gave up 43. If you subtract the plays where Carr sacked himself, our line (and running backs) probably gave up an average number of sacks.

But I think a lot of people use the line's play as an excuse for other problems.

Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory of how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.

Texans_Chick
03-04-2007, 10:00 AM
Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.

Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.

This is not to say I am totally comfortable with the rest of the line and its 'depth' but at least it isn't ridiculous.

And, to add further concern to this, I am not sure that the line coaching is able to make chicken salad outta chicken uh beaks. The Denver style offensive blocking relies a lot on misdirection and cut blocks to keep the defenses off balance. That is why they can get away with lighter linemen. What appeared to be coached last year doesn't appear to be consistent with what Denver does, and it is an open question whether a Denver style offense can work with a muddled philosophy in the way the line is coached. It's not like the Texans have Alex Gibbs working with their project linemen.

BattleRedToro
03-04-2007, 10:44 AM
Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.

This is not to say I am totally comfortable with the rest of the line and its 'depth' but at least it isn't ridiculous.

And, to add further concern to this, I am not sure that the line coaching is able to make chicken salad outta chicken uh beaks. The Denver style offensive blocking relies a lot on misdirection and cut blocks to keep the defenses off balance. That is why they can get away with lighter linemen. What appeared to be coached last year doesn't appear to be consistent with what Denver does, and it is an open question whether a Denver style offense can work with a muddled philosophy in the way the line is coached. It's not like the Texans have Alex Gibbs working with their project linemen.

That is the part that irritates me the most, because he is free to coach or consult but I have heard no mention of even attempting to bring him in as a consultant or a full-time coach. People don't realize how much of Denver's success was due to the outstanding job that Alex Gibbs did while he was there. It wasn't just how well that his O-Line played but also how he was able to do it with late round picks which allowed the Broncos to use high round picks on other areas of need. All of this adds up to a better Broncos team.

Texans_Chick
03-04-2007, 10:49 AM
BTW, Denver Oline guru, Alex Gibbs is still available as a consultant:

link (http://www.denverpost.com/williamson/ci_5251758)

There has to be a team smart enough to make a call to Alex Gibbs and ask him to be a consultant, doesn't there? There isn't a better teacher for offensive linemen, and he is said to be interested in returning to the league after leaving the Falcons.

I know we already have Benton and Sherman, but geez, there ain't no salary cap on coaches and consultants, and it would be nice to have some more hope for this offensive line, even if it were just some proven coaching for the line.

(Yes, I am aware of Sherman's background. He doesn't have a proven track record with line coaching for a Denver style offense).

TC
(okay, that is my minor arm chair GMing for the day).

thunderkyss
03-04-2007, 10:53 AM
Stop making so much sense.

The left tackle and center positions currently are a joke. McKinney ends up looking pretty good in comparison to Flanagan. I never really noticed the "big nasty" abilities of Spencer before his injuries--of him being terrific. Post injury, I can't imagine that it is any better. The best thing to say about Salaam's play is that he is a good quote and lockeroom guy.


Sense?? sense is to not let all the preseason pessimism about Ephraim Salaam cloud your judgment about the way he played. Sure, he isn't an all pro, but he's far from being a joke.

The same guy we touted as an upgrade, when it comes to talent evaluation, not only picked Ephraim up for last year, but decided he was good enough to play for a second year. he is one of the few players on this team who has earned a position on this team.

Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.

McKinney at Center... I think you're more right than not, that he looked good compared to Flanagan.

We've got a ways to go, no doubt. But we're good enough to have one more than 6 games, against the teams we played in '06.

Runner
03-04-2007, 12:54 PM
Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.



Again, watching Salaam get pushed back into the QB's face on three step drops indicates that low sack number is unrealistic. If he had protected 5 and 7 step drops at a normal frequency he would have given up many more sacks.

Thanks for pointing out my blind prejudice though.

threetoedpete
03-04-2007, 01:37 PM
Looking at isolated numbers doesn't give a true picture of how the team played.

100 yards rushing isn't a very good success criterion for a run based offense.

43 sacks is worse than it appears too. How many sacks would they have given up if they had run some semblance of an NFL passing game? The league average would have been well below 35 sacks if everyone threw three yards passes and rarely took deep drops.

I'm not using the line play as an excuse for anything. I think the line and the QB played poorly last year. I don't limit the team to having one bad area - I think the last two wins have erased the memory of how truly inept the Texans were for large stretches of playing time.

Agreed. Thank you. I think the DC hate just shakes them up. We could get into the chicken or the egg first argument. But what is the point of that ?
The fact remains, and the point of this tread, with out DC in the equation, it's going to be easier to assess our o-line tallent. Less Chales Spencer or at 90 % or less, I am not optomistic. Especaily if they pull franchise RBs , dominate FSs off the board early with the eight pick this draft. Wanna be teased by the numbers and the stats be my guest. The facts are Kubes pulled in the horns of this offense the moment Spencer went down. The play book got radically paired down. Wanna say it's DC, and DC only, fine. We're going to see in spades in '07 aren't we ?

Please_Evolve
03-04-2007, 01:57 PM
Agreed. Thank you. I think the DC hate just shakes them up. We could get into the chicken or the egg first argument. But what is the point of that ?
The fact remains, and the point of this tread, with out DC in the equation, it's going to be easier to assess our o-line tallent. Less Chales Spencer or at 90 % or less, I am not optomistic. Especaily if they pull franchise RBs , dominate FSs off the board early with the eight pick this draft. Wanna be teased by the numbers and the stats be my guest. The facts are Kubes pulled in the horns of this offense the moment Spencer went down. The play book got radically paired down. Wanna say it's DC, and DC only, fine. We're going to see in spades in '07 aren't we ?

Spot on in the thread bro. Would give you rep but gotta spread it around.

threetoedpete
03-04-2007, 02:01 PM
Spot on in the thread bro. Would give you rep but gotta spread it around.

pat on the back was good enough.thank you.

Texans_Chick
03-04-2007, 03:27 PM
Sense?? sense is to not let all the preseason pessimism about Ephraim Salaam cloud your judgment about the way he played. Sure, he isn't an all pro, but he's far from being a joke.

The same guy we touted as an upgrade, when it comes to talent evaluation, not only picked Ephraim up for last year, but decided he was good enough to play for a second year. he is one of the few players on this team who has earned a position on this team.

Zero sacks from Ware, & Freeney(x2), and only one to Jason Taylor... three of this leagues best pass rushers... I think the guy is at least avg, if not better. & only blind prejudice for a big money first round LT could prevent anyone from noticing that.

McKinney at Center... I think you're more right than not, that he looked good compared to Flanagan.

We've got a ways to go, no doubt. But we're good enough to have one more than 6 games, against the teams we played in '06.

I give Salaam credit that he played despite being hurt. It is a wonder that he played all the games he did. That being said, he is not the guy you want to pencil in as your starter. Spot swing tackle, locker room guy, I'm okay with.

Statistics don't show a lot of things in football (like how many times the Texans had to dump the ball, or negative rushing games etc), but the stats for the Texans left tackle position are really really sad:

link (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php)

The reason why sacks were down is the same reason why the Texans YPC is so scary low. They had to dump the ball, teams didn't respect them deep because they didn't have enough time to go deep nor could they consistently run the ball.

real
03-04-2007, 03:57 PM
I've pretty much said it all along....

Our O-line isn't that bad...

The Pencil Neck
03-04-2007, 04:44 PM
I give Salaam credit that he played despite being hurt. It is a wonder that he played all the games he did. That being said, he is not the guy you want to pencil in as your starter. Spot swing tackle, locker room guy, I'm okay with.

Statistics don't show a lot of things in football (like how many times the Texans had to dump the ball, or negative rushing games etc), but the stats for the Texans left tackle position are really really sad:

link (http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php)

The reason why sacks were down is the same reason why the Texans YPC is so scary low. They had to dump the ball, teams didn't respect them deep because they didn't have enough time to go deep nor could they consistently run the ball.

From what I was seeing, we were dumping the ball when we didn't have to dump the ball. We were dumping the ball even when we had time. And that was why our YPA was so low. He's taken so many hits that he expects to take the hits now and so sometimes he pulls the trigger on the dump too quickly.

On the NFL channel during the Combine stuff (iirc), they mentioned a knock on one of the QB's was that he considered someone open only when they were VERY open. And I think that's one of Carr's problems now. It's like for the most part, he's not trusting himself to be able to make the throw into the small window so he dumps it off instead. Now, you can turn that around and say our guys weren't getting separation and it might be some combination of both those things.

But, I think you take those two things and combine them, and that's Carr's problem on the 3 step drops. He takes his steps and when his back foot hits, he's not sure what he read, he's just not sure if the guy is open, he's not sure if he can make that tight throw so he becomes indecisive. He pumps and pulls it back down and then starts panicking because he's sure he's about to get hit... and he usually is. Both because the line, which is below average, isn't going to hold much longer than that and because the protection wasn't designed to hold much longer than that.

So, it's like a feedback loop. The line isn't great so some guys are going to get through and hit the QB, the QB has taken so many hits that those hits get inside his head and take him out of his comfort zone so he starts making mistakes that make the line look even worse.

The bottom line that I think everyone can agree on is that we need to improve our line. The disagreement comes over whether we think that's going to improve the play of our RBs and QB or whether we need new RBs and/or QB's to take advantage of it.

michaelm
03-04-2007, 05:53 PM
It is a very bad mistake TK to interject parameters into future seasons based on circumstacnes that you have no way of knowing will repeat themseves...Like the Colts coming in here at the end of a season with a banged up D and we dink and dunk for four quarters with out a major mistake. We weren't the only ones who upset the colts down the strech. So how big of deal was it really ? The gap isn't closing, the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them. My book says we're way far behind them still. They can protect ther QB, we however can not. Titans get some speed to go with Vincent...we ain't catching them this season with our DBs.
It's very difficult to sweep anyone in back to back seasons. So how are you going to repeat 3-3 as you say. As always, I believe you absolutly dead wrong in your evaluation. We'll see.

So tell me again TK how much back up qbs make in the league again ?

I'm not going to say I disagree with the gist of your statement, but how is "the Colts are aging and the cap numbers are getting to them" different from "the gap is closing"? Sounds like two descriptions of the same thing to me...

keyfro
03-04-2007, 06:27 PM
the main thing too keep in mind is that this o-line has three guys who still have potential maybe 4

with pitts he still has room to grow as a guard in this league and i can see him being a pro bowl guy in the near future if this team starts to win

weary is in the same situation as pitts...i think with a few seasons starting under his belt he might turn into a pro bowl guard

with winston the sky is the limit...remember this guy before his knee injury was the top tackle prospect in the college ranks...labeled as a short arm guy he has not been given the chance to play LT but i still think he has the feet for it...at the very least he could be a franchise RT for us for several years to come

spencer is possibly the fourth guy who has a ton of potential...i love his aggressive behavior on the field...we just need his knee to heal

so that leaves just two positions...C and LT...if we can ever find a guy to anchor this o-line at the center position i think you'll see this line's production increase dramatically...despite the belief that LT is the most important position on the o-line i believe it's the center...no other position along the o-line makes more calls...has more contact with the QB...and no other position has less ground to give before backing into the QB...any team going far into the playoffs has to have a solid center...we need a solid, franchise-type center

Texans_Chick
03-04-2007, 09:31 PM
so that leaves just two positions...C and LT...if we can ever find a guy to anchor this o-line at the center position i think you'll see this line's production increase dramatically...despite the belief that LT is the most important position on the o-line i believe it's the center...no other position along the o-line makes more calls...has more contact with the QB...and no other position has less ground to give before backing into the QB...any team going far into the playoffs has to have a solid center...we need a solid, franchise-type center

You do realize that you just said something akin to my car would be good if it had an engine and tires.

Sigh, too bad those left tackle and center thingies don't grow on trees.

Navy_Chris
03-04-2007, 09:33 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

Not bad. But we have to get some depth in here. YOUNG depth we can work with for years to come.

Crazyhorse
03-04-2007, 11:08 PM
Keyfro I like the way you think! I agree with you about Winston. I too believe this will be the breakout season. Injuries like his take two years to heal no matter how good you feel. Last October was two years for Eric and from that time to the end of the season he played great football at RT.
If Spencer can't make it back and I hope he does, then I wouldn't be surprised if they move him to LT which is what he played in college. Either way I think he will have a large impact on the o-line this year.

real
03-05-2007, 02:00 PM
Having played O-line for a good 10 yrs of my life, one of the most important things about pass blocking is knowing the QB's depth...

That's why Kubes worked so much with David on his footwork and timing...His biggest issue is his pocket presence...period...

As an Offensive lineman when your QB drops back, you can't see him..That's why it's important for him to drop to the same depth at the same rate of speed everytime. Speeding up your drop like David does is a sure way to throw timing out of whack. As a lineman all you can see is the defender, but you have to feel the QB and thats why you practice...To get your timing in sync.......When you have a QB that is jittery in the pocket in game situations and moves when he doesn't need to, and doesn't take consistent drops it only helps the defender who can actually see the QB vs. the lineman who has to try and react to a defender who knows where he is going. Maybe in years past David was hurt by poor play on the line, but this year it was on him...My guess is that David is Joe Cool in practice when the pressure is off, and when the game comes his adrenaline starts pumping and everything speeds up for him throwing everyone on offense timing out of whack...

He was not consistent in the pocket and that causes more chaos up front that you could ever imagine...He couldn't feel the rush...his timing was off, and when he felt like someone was close he got flustered and never turned a negative situation into a good one...Even mediocre QB's turn negatives into positives occasionally, that's why I'm of the opinion that David is terrible...He's not even mediocre in my book...Even with all the physical talents and all that "potential" he's yet to make a play that makes me believe we can win if it ever came down to him doing something special.....Instead we should depend on our line full of pro-bowlers, Stud RB, and two beastly recievers....And oh yeah...A defense that only allows 100 total yards a game...

No playmaking ability+poor pocket presence= a QB that looks like his line is failing him.




No the line isn't great, but we are not in need of an overhaul.

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 02:28 PM
You do realize that you just said something akin to my car would be good if it had an engine and tires.

Sigh, too bad those left tackle and center thingies don't grow on trees.

Exactly TC...you got it. Rep your way...What is mind boggeling to me...we're going to do it again this off season by the looks of things going on. Patch it, hope for the best and move on with great expectations. I'm thinking with DC out of the equation, one way or another, we're going to get to test some of these therories we've been subjected too for three years. If we're wrong Spencer is back at left tackle and the FO hasn't been fertilizing the mushrooms, Ahmen gets fresh legs. If we're correct...they got to finally get it fixed.

Yeah the 250 sacks was a depth thingy. I got it.

Pat on the back will have to do TC. Nice post though.

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 02:28 PM
Sigh, too bad those left tackle and center thingies don't grow on trees.

TC, that's why I think we need to do whatever it is we have to do, to get Ryan Kalil at the top of the 2nd. IMO he's worth our 2nd rder and a day two pick.

with pitts and weary as our answer at guards. flanagan, hogdon, and mckinney won't be here much longer. that leaves nobody else for C.

If we got Kalil...and Spencer and Winston pan out to be our T's....then we're set!

but then again...IF/If/IF

threetoedpete
03-05-2007, 02:36 PM
TC, that's why I think we need to do whatever it is we have to do, to get Ryan Kalil at the top of the 2nd. IMO he's worth our 2nd rder and a day two pick.

with pitts and weary as our answer at guards. flanagan, hogdon, and mckinney won't be here much longer. that leaves nobody else for C.

If we got Kalil...and Spencer and Winston pan out to be our T's....then we're set!

but then again...IF/If/IF

LOL, at least they'd have the ZBS center on board, Old Miss. I would be happy with that. That would be one hole down. One hole to go. Then you got to start thinking about replacing Pitts in the future (a couple of seasons,2010 ?). The price tag on some of these free agent Left gaurds is astronmical. Hope they get him resigned and restructured next season.

We'ved lived with the bug "if" for a while now. Xt 's gonna work out the depth thingy though. We should be OK.

thunderkyss
03-05-2007, 03:15 PM
TC, that's why I think we need to do whatever it is we have to do, to get Ryan Kalil at the top of the 2nd. IMO he's worth our 2nd rder and a day two pick.

with pitts and weary as our answer at guards. flanagan, hogdon, and mckinney won't be here much longer. that leaves nobody else for C.

If we got Kalil...and Spencer and Winston pan out to be our T's....then we're set!

but then again...IF/If/IF

2006 was HogDon's first year under Kubiak... He's only got 8 starts as a Texan. 8 starts in the NFL. For all we know, Kubiak likes what he's seen out of Hogdon, and he'll probably start in '07.... we don't know. But if he does, he can be a part of our line for as long as Winston & Spencer. Salaam as our swing Tackle, and McKinney can play Guard or Center...

The oldest players on our line, would be the six year vets Pitts & Weary...

I like Kalil as well, but how bad are we hurting at Center?? We won't know till the draft.

Texans Horror
03-05-2007, 04:30 PM
The Texans are hurting worse at Center than most people think. They had a very difficult time running inside until Dayne got in there. What Dayne did was move the pile and push aside offenders - I don't give good run blocking credit to the line. Dayne made his own holes.

Flanagan was injured (but his play was abysmal). Hodgdon was removed from play. McKinney was inserted at Center and looked the best, but McKinney has never looked consistent at Center.

Getting a center would improve a lot of things by giving the RBs room to run inside, but I agree with you TK when you say that we won't know how important a new center is to the team until draft day. A lot of boards and mocks have the Texans passing on center (even with Kalil available) to pick up something else.

But IMO, the Texans need to make like the Jets last year and make sure they get top-tier talent at Center and LT. That will make a LOT of things better.

texans83
03-05-2007, 04:33 PM
The Texans are hurting worse at Center than most people think. They had a very difficult time running inside until Dayne got in there. What Dayne did was move the pile and push aside offenders - I don't give good run blocking credit to the line. Dayne made his own holes.

Flanagan was injured (but his play was abysmal). Hodgdon was removed from play. McKinney was inserted at Center and looked the best, but McKinney has never looked consistent at Center.

Getting a center would improve a lot of things by giving the RBs room to run inside, but I agree with you TK when you say that we won't know how important a new center is to the team until draft day. A lot of boards and mocks have the Texans passing on center (even with Kalil available) to pick up something else.

But IMO, the Texans need to make like the Jets last year and make sure they get top-tier talent at Center and LT. That will make a LOT of things better.

I agree. We have to start a building stone and the center is the key block, Kalil is the right man for the job and I dont think Smith would turn him down. he could hold down our line for the next 10yrs. Man I like the sound of that.

real
03-05-2007, 04:34 PM
The Texans are hurting worse at Center than most people think. They had a very difficult time running inside until Dayne got in there. What Dayne did was move the pile and push aside offenders - I don't give good run blocking credit to the line. Dayne made his own holes.

The line can't win with you...

Dayne is good enough to "make his own holes"....

But Carr is limited by their play ?


What exactly is your philosophy when it comes to the O-line having an effect on players ? :hmmm:

dantem
03-05-2007, 05:41 PM
Is it just me or is our Offensive Line not as bad as people make it out to be? I mean injuries really hurt us last season, BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Not the best for sure, but it's not all doom and gloom. I really think we need to bite the bullett and draft a LT. Then even if Spencer comes back healthy you can put him at RT and move Winston to guard. More options are GOOD anyway.

If we could somehow get our hands on Joe Thomas.... or even Levi Brown...

Were you watching last season?

This line was pathetic, at times it was worse than the year before.
they could not block on a screen at all. The pass protection was great except for the one guy that always got through untouched. Winston got burned every other play, Salam was pushed into the QB and RB at least twice per quarter every game. Spencer was the only bright spot.

You would never have posted this during the season last year, it is still BS now.

real
03-05-2007, 05:57 PM
Can you say banned.

Ole Miss Texan
03-05-2007, 06:02 PM
Can you say banned.

I second that motion.....all in favor say.....

Texans Horror
03-05-2007, 08:21 PM
The line can't win with you...

Dayne is good enough to "make his own holes"....

But Carr is limited by their play ?


What exactly is your philosophy when it comes to the O-line having an effect on players ? :hmmm:

Early in the season, Carr made some extraordinary effort to get rid of the ball before being hit. It made all the difference, especially in the number of sacks the team was credited for. Later in the season, he lost that edge and couldn't evade.

The opposite happened in the running game, which started poor. IMO, the only way it improved was Dayne forcing holes.

All of this to say is that I don't think the line play really did a good job of making things happen for either the passing game or the running game. I am sure there were instances where they had to help, but I don't remember them.

At the same time, let me emphasize that Carr and Dayne needed to do a better job, too. All players need to improve, but in this instance, we're talking about the o-line.

This is what gets me about the offense. Going into the offseason, I truly saw only three personnel holes that needed to be fixed (not patched): Running Back, Left Tackle, and Center. Then the Texans lost Moulds. I say lost cause I suspect Moulds didn't like things here in Texas, either coaching or otherwise, and he wanted out. (The line may not do a good job of covering holes, but the Texans PR department is stellar.)

Now the Texans have four holes. They have fixed one with Ahman Green. I think he can be the Texans running back for the next year or two, and that's all anyone can really expect from a running back.

That leaves left tackle, center, and a #2 wide receiver. All are critical, and there are only so many picks in the draft. What are the chances the Texans will be able to fix it? It's looking less likely to me. I hope they can pull something out, but my doubt factor's running high right now.

dantem
03-05-2007, 08:50 PM
Having played O-line for a good 10 yrs of my life, one of the most important things about pass blocking is knowing the QB's depth...

That's why Kubes worked so much with David on his footwork and timing...His biggest issue is his pocket presence...period...

As an Offensive lineman when your QB drops back, you can't see him..That's why it's important for him to drop to the same depth at the same rate of speed everytime. Speeding up your drop like David does is a sure way to throw timing out of whack. As a lineman all you can see is the defender, but you have to feel the QB and thats why you practice...To get your timing in sync.......When you have a QB that is jittery in the pocket in game situations and moves when he doesn't need to, and doesn't take consistent drops it only helps the defender who can actually see the QB vs. the lineman who has to try and react to a defender who knows where he is going. Maybe in years past David was hurt by poor play on the line, but this year it was on him...My guess is that David is Joe Cool in practice when the pressure is off, and when the game comes his adrenaline starts pumping and everything speeds up for him throwing everyone on offense timing out of whack...

He was not consistent in the pocket and that causes more chaos up front that you could ever imagine...He couldn't feel the rush...his timing was off, and when he felt like someone was close he got flustered and never turned a negative situation into a good one...Even mediocre QB's turn negatives into positives occasionally, that's why I'm of the opinion that David is terrible...He's not even mediocre in my book...Even with all the physical talents and all that "potential" he's yet to make a play that makes me believe we can win if it ever came down to him doing something special.....Instead we should depend on our line full of pro-bowlers, Stud RB, and two beastly recievers....And oh yeah...A defense that only allows 100 total yards a game...

No playmaking ability+poor pocket presence= a QB that looks like his line is failing him.




No the line isn't great, but we are not in need of an overhaul.

I can't believe it, now youre claiming that Carr is the reason our O-line sucked so bad last year? I guess next someone will blame him for the crappy punting game as well.

This is nothing but a Carr bashing post disguised as a really poor football analysis. When a QB gets sacked and rushed as many times as ours was last year, it is very simple to diagnose. The line did not stop the defenders, and what is really pathetic is that most teams only rushed 4 at us and they still got through.

What your talking about here does happen, but it is not the QBs fault when a lineman gets beat over and over and over and over again all year long.

So I guess what I mean to say is I totally disagree with your post.

Hulk75
03-05-2007, 08:55 PM
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!

Now that is funny.

Texans_Chick
03-05-2007, 09:11 PM
Early in the season, Carr made some extraordinary effort to get rid of the ball before being hit. It made all the difference, especially in the number of sacks the team was credited for. Later in the season, he lost that edge and couldn't evade.

The opposite happened in the running game, which started poor. IMO, the only way it improved was Dayne forcing holes.

All of this to say is that I don't think the line play really did a good job of making things happen for either the passing game or the running game. I am sure there were instances where they had to help, but I don't remember them.

At the same time, let me emphasize that Carr and Dayne needed to do a better job, too. All players need to improve, but in this instance, we're talking about the o-line.

This is what gets me about the offense. Going into the offseason, I truly saw only three personnel holes that needed to be fixed (not patched): Running Back, Left Tackle, and Center. Then the Texans lost Moulds. I say lost cause I suspect Moulds didn't like things here in Texas, either coaching or otherwise, and he wanted out. (The line may not do a good job of covering holes, but the Texans PR department is stellar.)

Now the Texans have four holes. They have fixed one with Ahman Green. I think he can be the Texans running back for the next year or two, and that's all anyone can really expect from a running back.

That leaves left tackle, center, and a #2 wide receiver. All are critical, and there are only so many picks in the draft. What are the chances the Texans will be able to fix it? It's looking less likely to me. I hope they can pull something out, but my doubt factor's running high right now.


The difference in the line as the season evolved was a lack of cohesiveness and defenses adjusting to what the Texans were doing (or not doing, as the case may be).

Four holes? Honey, the Texans look like swiss cheese to me. It is a waaaaay shorter list to talk about the positions you don't have concerns about than it is talking about the ones you do.

Hulk75
03-05-2007, 09:14 PM
The difference in the line as the season evolved was a lack of cohesiveness and defenses adjusting to what the Texans were doing (or not doing, as the case may be).

Four holes? Honey, the Texans look like swiss cheese to me. It is a waaaaay shorter list to talk about the positions you don't have concerns about than it is talking about the ones you do.

:highfive: Swiss Cheese is right.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
03-05-2007, 09:24 PM
Here's a good read about the effect of a veteran QB presence to an offensive line.


Without even dropping back or throwing a pass, a veteran quarterback can help his offensive line. From the onset, he will automatically change the snap count from play to play, something the coaches did not allow Kyle Boller to do until last year and then not very often. This has been one of the causes of Mike Flynn getting beat and Boller being tackled while handing off; the defensive tackles jumping the snap count and beating their man to the spot. This will also help Jonathan Ogden and Tony Pashos on speed rushers, as well as the interior of the line on quick first step and strong jab linemen. The defensive tackles will be forced to watch the ball, giving the advantage back to Edwin Mulitalo, Keydrick Vincent/Brian Rimpf, and Mike Flynn/Jason Brown.

When a defender knows the snap count they can better anticipate the snap of the ball and get on top of the offensive linemen. Once that happens, moving the defender becomes difficult. Turning the defender is almost impossible and running lanes become non-existent. Along with changing the snap count, a veteran quarterback knows when to utilize the hard count, thus coaxing the defenders off sides and keeping them off balance. Again, when you start a play with the defense already hesitating, the offense has the advantage, increasing the chance of a successful play.

Just the presence of a veteran quarterback who knows how to properly read a defense and adjust the plays at the line of scrimmage, will force teams to stop stacking the box with eight or nine defenders. That automatically helps the line in that they can properly determine their blocking assignments. When there are more defenders in the box than an offense has blockers, it becomes very difficult to not only block the right man, but also have the room to get to that man. Space is at a premium at the line of scrimmage and with eight or more men on the defensive side that close to the line, there is not enough room to get out into the second level without interfering with your own players. Because of this, running plays bog down, and gain only a few yards if any, when they normally should garner five yards or more.

If defenses insist on stacking the box, veteran quarterbacks like Steve McNair, are skilled enough to change the play. If he changes it to a pass, it will most assuredly take advantage of the void left by the linebackers & or safeties slipping into the box. If teams, as they often did over the past three years, continue to run blitz, then the quick slant will be wide open and completed before the blitzers have a chance to get to the quarterback or can get back into position. McNair may not have the strong arm he once had, but he made a living off of this pass and is still very accurate.

Another area that a veteran can help the offensive line is in the passing game itself. When you have played in the league as long as McNair has, you know when and where to move when the pressure comes - pocket presence. Kyle Boller often ran into the direction of the pressure, thus causing several of his sacks or incompletions. With pocket presence, McNair will not only help the linemen move the defender by moving a certain direction, but also give the play another chance to succeed. He will also recognize the blitz and properly align his backs and tight ends, thus potentially limiting the effectiveness of the blitz. This is something Boller struggled with over the years, but appeared to understand it in the later parts of last season.

When teams do blitz, a veteran will quickly diagnose it and take advantage by quickly getting rid of the ball to the proper receiver in the area vacated by the blitzing player. He will also know how and when to move the safety with his eyes and pump fake. By doing this, it will open up a receiver on certain patterns giving the play more chances to succeed and increasing the chance for big gains.

There are other ways a veteran quarterback can help an offense and thus take more pressure off of a line; most of them are with completions downfield. For that and for the success of each play it is up to the players to make the block, throw the pass accurately, run the proper route and catch the ball. Whether or not this offense can do all that is still up in the air, but one thing is for certain, all of the above give each play a better chance to work. The only thing the players have to do is to execute properly.


http://extremeravens.com/columnists/tim_sylvester/the_effect_of_a_veteran/

BattleRedToro
03-05-2007, 10:55 PM
Instead we should depend on our line full of pro-bowlers, Stud RB, and two beastly recievers....And oh yeah...A defense that only allows 100 total yards a game

Since when have the Texans had any of those things?

Texans Horror
03-06-2007, 08:55 AM
The difference in the line as the season evolved was a lack of cohesiveness and defenses adjusting to what the Texans were doing (or not doing, as the case may be).

Four holes? Honey, the Texans look like swiss cheese to me. It is a waaaaay shorter list to talk about the positions you don't have concerns about than it is talking about the ones you do.

Nicely said.

real
03-06-2007, 09:24 AM
Early in the season, Carr made some extraordinary effort to get rid of the ball before being hit. It made all the difference, especially in the number of sacks the team was credited for. Later in the season, he lost that edge and couldn't evade.

I can't recall too many times last season that Carr evaded a rush and made a throw down field...I can't even recall a time where he took a hit as he threw the ball...I can't even remember a time he turned a bad play into a good one...

I know that there were times last year that the line was terrible...flat out awful....

But if you are going to play QB for any team, you are going to be held to a higher standard....Carr has not played up to that standard, and that's really all it boils down to...

Yeah, the man next to him messed up...but that man was a back-up...and that man was a rookie....and that man started the season on the bench...

You are a starter...# 1 overall selection...If you have talent, people will see it...

Where is it ? Where was this "extraordinary" effort that you speak of ?

What was Carr's defining moment in '06 ?

Hulk75
03-06-2007, 09:31 AM
I can't recall too many times last season that Carr evaded a rush and made a throw down field...I can't even recall a time where he took a hit as he threw the ball...I can't even remember a time he turned a bad play into a good one...

I know that there were times last year that the line was terrible...flat out awful....

But if you are going to play QB for any team, you are going to be held to a higher standard....Carr has not played up to that standard, and that's really all it boils down to...

Yeah, the man next to him messed up...but that man was a back-up...and that man was a rookie....and that man started the season on the bench...

You are a starter...# 1 overall selection...If you have talent, people will see it...

Where is it ? Where was this "extraordinary" effort that you speak of ?

What was Carr's defining moment in '06 ?

Lets see I guess we can all whip out our tapes and watch all 16 games and let you know later.
Thanks for making my point. Thats what David has played with the last 5 years in front of him, retreads, back ups and Rookies.

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 09:53 AM
Lets see I guess we can all whip out our tapes and watch all 16 games and let you know later.
Thanks for making my point. Thats what David has played with the last 5 years in front of him, retreads, back ups and Rookies.

That's what they do... that's how the NFL is built. If you take out all the rethreads, back ups & Rookies, you have David Carr & Andre.


Well, let's look at it this way, without counting back ups rookies and rethreads:

Houston Texans Offense:

Andre ______ Pitts _____ Weary_____ ______ _______
David ________ _________



Dallas Cowboys:

_____ Adams______ ________ _______ _______ Witten ________
Romo ______ Jones



Denver Broncos:

Smith ________ Hamilton Nalen Carlisle ______ ______ _________
______ Johnson _______


New York Jets:

_________ ________ _______ ________ Moore ________ Baker
Pennington Askew ________



Playing with Rookies, back-ups & Rethreads didn't stop the Broncos, the Jets, & the Cowboys from having winning seasons.

Texans Horror
03-06-2007, 10:00 AM
I can't recall too many times last season that Carr evaded a rush and made a throw down field...I can't even recall a time where he took a hit as he threw the ball...I can't even remember a time he turned a bad play into a good one...

I know that there were times last year that the line was terrible...flat out awful....

But if you are going to play QB for any team, you are going to be held to a higher standard....Carr has not played up to that standard, and that's really all it boils down to...

Yeah, the man next to him messed up...but that man was a back-up...and that man was a rookie....and that man started the season on the bench...

You are a starter...# 1 overall selection...If you have talent, people will see it...

Where is it ? Where was this "extraordinary" effort that you speak of ?

What was Carr's defining moment in '06 ?

First of all, let me reiterate something I said in my earlier post:

At the same time, let me emphasize that Carr and Dayne needed to do a better job, too. All players need to improve, but in this instance, we're talking about the o-line.

Carr needs significant improvement. Just improving the line won't fix the Texans' woes. Carr has to improve, too.

I liked his performance better in the first half of the season, and I loved his running touchdown (Giants game?). Help me out somebody. Line goes one way, Carr goes the other. Gets a monster hit at the endzone, but still makes it in.

Let me say again, though...the face of the Texans has to improve. Hands down. Right now, I'm talking o-line, though. The o-line needs serious help. I saw somewhere else on the MB somebody (I hope sarcastically) said that the Texans O-line was better than a handful of others. I hope the Texans have a better goal than being better than a few bottom-feeding teams, a few cellar-dwellers. Upgrading talent on the o-line and in the defensive secondary will be a big part of that.

common_fan
03-06-2007, 10:03 AM
I don't understand why David Carr and the O-linemen get all the blame for all the sacks. I think we should blame Freeney for some of that stuff!!!

I finally read this thread, and when I came to this post, I choked on my coffee and burnt all my nose hair.

real
03-06-2007, 10:23 AM
Lets see I guess we can all whip out our tapes and watch all 16 games and let you know later.
Thanks for making my point. Thats what David has played with the last 5 years in front of him, retreads, back ups and Rookies.

And he fit right in....

How come Andre can go to the pro-bowl and be looked at as a star player while he's surrounded by the same cast ?

And you can go ahead and watch the 16 games...

I can remember plays from QB's on other teams, yet I'm hard pressed to think of 3 for David....

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 10:26 AM
First of all, let me reiterate something I said in my earlier post:



Carr needs significant improvement. Just improving the line won't fix the Texans' woes. Carr has to improve, too.
I saw somewhere else on the MB somebody (I hope sarcastically) said that the Texans O-line was better than a handful of others. I hope the Texans have a better goal than being better than a few bottom-feeding teams, a few cellar-dwellers. Upgrading talent on the o-line and in the defensive secondary will be a big part of that.

If the measuring stick is sacks allowed, we performed better than Atlanta, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Seattle, St Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, and Oakland.

The sacks we allowed went from 68 to 43.... And that's still playing musical linemen. If we can go into next season with some continuity at just 2 spots on the line(only 1 spot was a lock in '06) we should improve. If we can get a QB that can avoid a sack, and make plays(instead of having to take the ball out of his hands to keep the sack total down) we should see much improvement.

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 10:38 AM
It's really pretty simple people, last year before the injuries we looked pretty good, after the injuries we looked like we were back in 2000. we need depth & time to gel---which means to me that we need a break from the injury bug. Drafting Brown won't hurt us, it's probably the most logical thing to do at this point since we don't know what's going to happen with Spencer, but this draft can shake out many ways so i don't know.

It was never all on the O-line,---well except for 2000.

* thinks back about the San Diego game & :tvhorror:

real
03-06-2007, 10:38 AM
Let me say again, though...the face of the Texans has to improve. Hands down. Right now, I'm talking o-line, though. The o-line needs serious help. I saw somewhere else on the MB somebody (I hope sarcastically) said that the Texans O-line was better than a handful of others. I hope the Texans have a better goal than being better than a few bottom-feeding teams, a few cellar-dwellers. Upgrading talent on the o-line and in the defensive secondary will be a big part of that.

And that's where the difference of opinion is...

We both acknowledge that both the QB and O-line have problems, but you are more 80% line 20% QB...and I'm more 35% line 65% QB.....

I think a change at that position seriously upgrades our whole offense...

Yes upgrading the line will two, but you are talking about multiple positions vs. one...The one position taht happens to be the most important...

Poor play from your QB will always result in being a loser...Good QB's always have a shot...Even game managing QB's have a shot when they're surrounded by talent...But poor play always has, and always will result in losing...

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 11:02 AM
It's really pretty simple people, last year before the injuries we looked pretty good, after the injuries we looked like we were back in 2000. we need depth & time to gel---which means to me that we need a break from the injury bug. Drafting Brown won't hurt us, it's probably the most logical thing to do at this point since we don't know what's going to happen with Spencer, but this draft can shake out many ways so i don't know.

It was never all on the O-line,---well except for 2000.

* thinks back about the San Diego game & :tvhorror:

thinking that an offensive lineman taken in the first is better than an offensive lineman taken in the third is a very poor way of evaluating Talent.

As a matter of fact, here you are saying we'll be OK, if Spencer(a third round pick) comes back 100%, if not, we need to take Levi Brown(who may be a reach at the #8 overall.

There may be another two offensive linemen in our future, but they'll most likely be two guys you & I aren't even thinking about right now. Remember most of the experts are saying this is a deep draft for OL.... especially interior OL, but deep at OL overall.

HOU-TEX
03-06-2007, 11:10 AM
I'm not sure this has been mentioned or not. I didn't want to start a new thread to ask a question.

I thought Carlisle was supposed to visit with the Texans. Is this true? If so, when?

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 11:24 AM
thinking that an offensive lineman taken in the first is better than an offensive lineman taken in the third is a very poor way of evaluating Talent.

As a matter of fact, here you are saying we'll be OK, if Spencer(a third round pick) comes back 100%, if not, we need to take Levi Brown(who may be a reach at the #8 overall.

There may be another two offensive linemen in our future, but they'll most likely be two guys you & I aren't even thinking about right now. Remember most of the experts are saying this is a deep draft for OL.... especially interior OL, but deep at OL overall.

Yeah i can see your point, But how much is Brown thought to be a reach? surely not a 2- 3 rounds reach. & that's not what i'm saying at all about spencer. His situation is similar to the RB debacle last year. Everyone was saying we didn't really need a RB b/c we had Davis & he's been a 1000 yd rusher the last 2 years behind a seemingly horrible offensive line etc. So we pass on Bush For whatever reason & then it turns out that Davis/williams isn't able to play this year. What happens after that? well, sure you already know that we struggled in the run game all year, which is not to say that bush would've cured that, but you get the picture.

This year i don't want to put all our eggs in the "spencer possibly coming back healthy" basket before the draft. the fact is we/they don't know, so we could continue to improve our O-line with a top prospect at the position & if Spencer does come back healthy, we could possibly move brown to the RT spot since he is a little too big for the LT spot (heard that somewhere), & then we could try winston at one of the guard/center spots & put Weary/Pitts/Flanigan/ Mckinney on the bench where they belong for depth.


Whichever way we go, i just don't want the texans to go into the season banking on spencer coming back healthy, cause if he doesn't the "screwed" factor is high.

By the way, as far as the talent evaluation part of your post, isn't that why Thomas is so high & is considered a top 3 pick seperated from all the other prospects? He's better than all the rest......then........Brown....etc. It might be a drop off but i don't know if it's that much of a drop off.

SESupergenius
03-06-2007, 11:27 AM
An offensive line is always bad when you are continually trying upgrade it. It's that simple.

real
03-06-2007, 11:36 AM
Whichever way we go, i just don't want the texans to go into the season banking on spencer coming back healthy, cause if he doesn't the "screwed" factor is high.


If we can wait Six years for Carr, we can wait one before we decide to go in another direction with the LT spot...

If Kubes thought he was good enough to start as a rookie, I sure would hate to see him just removed from that spot without being given a chance...

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 11:49 AM
If we can wait Six years for Carr, we can wait one before we decide to go in another direction with the LT spot...

If Kubes thought he was good enough to start as a rookie, I sure would hate to see him just removed from that spot without being given a chance...

Fair enough, but with all the talk about his injury possibly being career ending or at least altering, it's not far off to think that even if he does come back, he won't be the same promising rookie he was before the injury.

I don't know, but to me drafting O-linemen is never a bad idea for us at this point since we've never had a solid one to begin with. i'd be willing to pass on AD & Landry if it meant that we would possibly be set on our offensive front for years to come.

beerlover
03-06-2007, 12:00 PM
Patrick Willis would be considered a reach @ #8 but I'll bet Texans fans would end up loving him & considerd a great pick over the long term, couple years from now Texans fans are not going to care he was a top 10 pick other after becoming a Pro-Bowl LB. I could say the same thing about Ryan Kalil, a reach @ #8 sure but when he could anchor the middle of the offensive line & become an elite NFL center & central reason the Texans finally make the playoffs, no ones going to be bitching about the 8th pick then. which leads me to Levi Brown. if you could somehow draft both Brown & Kalil do you have any idea just how good the Texans offensive line becomes? the Texans would be considered one of the deepest, best young lines with everyone under contract, continuity, depth & no excuses for any QB. look at what the Jets did last draft, that needs to be the model for the Texans this year- just fix the line stupid :brickwall

LT- Levi Brown
LG- Chester Pitts
C- Ryan Kalil
RG- Eric Winston
RT- Charles Spencer

real
03-06-2007, 12:03 PM
I don't know, but to me drafting O-linemen is never a bad idea for us at this point since we've never had a solid one to begin with. i'd be willing to pass on AD & Landry if it meant that we would possibly be set on our offensive front for years to come.

I'm not against drafting O-line...I just don't like taking them in the first rd. unless they are Joe Thomas Caliber...or something similar....

I don't think Levi Jones is going to be any better than Spencer or Winston...

I think you can build a good O-lin in rds. 3-5 of a draft...

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 12:07 PM
Patrick Willis would be considered a reach @ #8 but I'll bet Texans fans would end up loving him & considerd a great pick over the long term, couple years from now Texans fans are not going to care he was a top 10 pick other after becoming a Pro-Bowl LB. I could say the same thing about Ryan Kalil, a reach @ #8 sure but when he could anchor the middle of the offensive line & become an elite NFL center & central reason the Texans finally make the playoffs, no ones going to be bitching about the 8th pick then. which leads me to Levi Brown. if you could somehow draft both Brown & Kalil do you have any idea just how good the Texans offensive line becomes? the Texans would be considered one of the deepest, best young lines with everyone under contract, continuity, depth & no excuses for any QB. look at what the Jets did last draft, that needs to be the model for the Texans this year- just fix the line stupid :brickwall

LT- Levi Brown
LG- Chester Pitts
C- Ryan Kalil
RG- Eric Winston
RT- Charles Spencer


That sir, is heaven right there & a good point above i might add.

Texans Horror
03-06-2007, 12:13 PM
If the measuring stick is sacks allowed, we performed better than Atlanta, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Seattle, St Louis, Cleveland, Detroit, and Oakland.

The sacks we allowed went from 68 to 43.... And that's still playing musical linemen. If we can go into next season with some continuity at just 2 spots on the line(only 1 spot was a lock in '06) we should improve. If we can get a QB that can avoid a sack, and make plays(instead of having to take the ball out of his hands to keep the sack total down) we should see much improvement.

I hear you, TK. The sacks did improve, and continuity on the line is something the Texans have lacked in several years (if they ever had it). I also agree with you on the tangibles of upgrading the QB. As far as upgrading at a single position, only an upgrade at RB can have a more instant impact on the team, IMO.

However, I want to add this. Sacks is a stat the media focuses on, but to be honest, I don't like it as a measuring stick. There is more I want to see out of a line, things that aren't picked up on stats.

I remember back to a preseason game, I think against the Broncos. There was a short dump-off to Joppru, and the tackle Wand took out a defender that was about to lay Joppru flat. Joppru got an extra 5 - 10 yards off the block. That is the sort of thing I would like to see more from the Texans. Clearly the tackle making the play that gets the receiver or running back that extra few yards. Seeing a Center or Guard open up a lane for a running back as opposed to the running back having to force a lane. As-is, the line struggles to hold its own, and the other people are not necessarily helped by them.

I think learning the scheme and continuity will be very important, but I think a change of personnel is needed, and I still think the line performed poorly throughout most of last season.

Texans Horror
03-06-2007, 12:20 PM
And that's where the difference of opinion is...

We both acknowledge that both the QB and O-line have problems, but you are more 80% line 20% QB...and I'm more 35% line 65% QB.....

I think a change at that position seriously upgrades our whole offense...

Yes upgrading the line will two, but you are talking about multiple positions vs. one...The one position taht happens to be the most important...

Poor play from your QB will always result in being a loser...Good QB's always have a shot...Even game managing QB's have a shot when they're surrounded by talent...But poor play always has, and always will result in losing...


You're right about the difference of opinion. I would rather they upgrade the line than the QB right now, but I agree that putting in that perfect QB would fix a lot. But IMO, if they were going to upgrade at QB, they should have done it last year.

I'd argue with you about poor QB play making a team a loser, and site the superbowl champion Ravens or last year's Bears, but I'd be mincing words with you. Your point, I think, is that a great QB will make a good or even sub-par team great. 100% agreed.

real
03-06-2007, 12:32 PM
That sir, is heaven right there & a good point above i might add.

Do you think the Jets success had to do with the fact that they had a competent QB that knows how to manage an offense, or the fact that they had two rookies on the O-line?

By the way D'Brick gave up as many sacks as Eric Winston and Ephriam Salaam combined....


My guess would be that they had a QB that could keep them in games.

real
03-06-2007, 12:42 PM
You're right about the difference of opinion. I would rather they upgrade the line than the QB right now, but I agree that putting in that perfect QB would fix a lot. But IMO, if they were going to upgrade at QB, they should have done it last year.

I'd argue with you about poor QB play making a team a loser, and site the superbowl champion Ravens or last year's Bears, but I'd be mincing words with you. Your point, I think, is that a great QB will make a good or even sub-par team great. 100% agreed.


You don't think Bad QB play made the Bears a loser ? I do.

And the Trent Dilfer went head to head with Kerry Collins...

When you're QB play is bad you have a fan base that gets excited after beating the Colts once in ten tries...

It's not a coincidence that we struggle against teams with good QB's, while we beat up on teams like the Dolphins and Raiders. When you have a weakness at that position, you will always be very beatable...Just like the Bears...Even with all that talent on defense, and special teams...Two pretty good running backs, good O-line...Great Coaching staff...The Bears were still viewed as an underdog...:hmmm:...why could that be ?

texans83
03-06-2007, 12:46 PM
You don't think Bad QB play made the Bears a loser ? I do.

And the Trent Dilfer went head to head with Kerry Collins...

When you're QB play is bad you have a fan base that gets excited after beating the Colts once in ten tries...

It's not a coincidence that we struggle against teams with good QB's, while we beat up on teams like the Dolphins and Raiders. When you have a weakness at that position, you will always be very beatable...Just like the Bears...Even with all that talent on defense, and special teams...Two pretty good running backs, good O-line...Great Coaching staff...The Bears were still viewed as an underdog...:hmmm:...why could that be ?

Thats why the bears lost bc their Defense had a off day. So when their QB played poorly like in almost ever other game their dfense kept them in it. that was not the case in the superbowl, the Colts ran all over thier defense and with that their QB still didnt produce.

Second Honeymoon
03-06-2007, 12:49 PM
it is everyone else's fault on the team. Carr was drafted #1 overall by the greatest GM in history so he must be good. Carr is my hero and is a good family man and christian so that trumps all his inherent flaws.

signed,
Stupid Carr Homer

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 01:47 PM
Do you think the Jets success had to do with the fact that they had a competent QB that knows how to manage an offense, or the fact that they had two rookies on the O-line?

By the way D'Brick gave up as many sacks as Eric Winston and Ephriam Salaam combined....


My guess would be that they had a QB that could keep them in games.

Yeah, Pennington is better than Carr, but not much better 500-600 yds more & 4-5 td's, hardly a difference maker. I'd say it was more of Mangenuis than Chad, but he helped some.

Again with the stats.... i don't know what stats you're looking at but the ones i looked at have Salaam giving up no sacks for the season, which anyone who saw him play this year knows that's a lie. Let's just put it like this, jags fans don't call him "turnstile" for nothing. Throw in the fact that Winston & Salaam combined still missed or didn't start a pretty good amount of games while D'brick & Nick started all 16 for their team & the stat you used above looks less impressive.

Mangini learned from Belichick that keeping a solid front five helps an offense more so than a Qb can, hence him using is 1st 2 picks on O-lineman in the 1st round & not using 1 on ML or VY or JC.

real
03-06-2007, 02:01 PM
Yeah, Pennington is better than Carr, but not much better 500-600 yds more & 4-5 td's, hardly a difference maker. I'd say it was more of Mangenuis than Chad, but he helped some.

Again with the stats.... i don't know what stats you're looking at but the ones i looked at have Salaam giving up no sacks for the season, which anyone who saw him play this year knows that's a lie. Let's just put it like this, jags fans don't call him "turnstile" for nothing. Throw in the fact that Winston & Salaam combined still missed or didn't start a pretty good amount of games while D'brick & Nick started all 16 for their team & the stat you used above looks less impressive.

Mangini learned from Belichick that keeping a solid front five helps an offense more so than a Qb can, hence him using is 1st 2 picks on O-lineman in the 1st round & not using 1 on ML or VY or JC.

Ephraim Salaam started in 14 games and played 15....7.5 sacks (http://http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4428&Submit=Go)

Eric Winston started 7 games and played in 12....2.5 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7815&Submit=Go)

[/URL]

[URL="http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7753&Submit=Go"]Ferguson played in 16 games and started 16....10 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4428&Submit=Go)

Really doesn't matter who you compare him to....10 sacks is bad...if every lineman allowed 10 sacks, that'd be 50 from the O-line alone...

And saying that Mangini learned something from Belichick is nothing but pure speculation...

What if they just thought D-Brick was the best talent left on the board...You really think you can break down a mans philosophy and what he's learned from a couple draft picks ? LOL@ that.

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 03:06 PM
Ephraim Salaam started in 14 games and played 15....7.5 sacks (http://http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4428&Submit=Go)

Eric Winston started 7 games and played in 12....2.5 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7815&Submit=Go)

[/URL]

[URL="http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7753&Submit=Go"]Ferguson played in 16 games and started 16....10 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4428&Submit=Go)

Really doesn't matter who you compare him to....10 sacks is bad...if every lineman allowed 10 sacks, that'd be 50 from the O-line alone...

And saying that Mangini learned something from Belichick is nothing but pure speculation...

What if they just thought D-Brick was the best talent left on the board...You really think you can break down a mans philosophy and what he's learned from a couple draft picks ? LOL@ that.


Look, if there was a seriously realistic good chance that Joe Thomas could fall to us, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, most fans would probably be on board with taking him.

& Yeah i do think that from a few picks you can tell a coaches philosophy, especially if he's a 1st year head coach. The problem with your logic is that this just isn't a "few picks" this is the 1st round first picks of his coaching career, they carry considerablly more weight than other picks. besides I think last year was considered the best draft for qb's in YEARS & he passed on every single 1 of them. also you'd have to be crazy to think that Belichick didn't rub off on Mangini just a little bit, the coaching style, dress, motivational tactics, demeanor etc. It is specualtion, but what's also speculation/an assumption on your part is that if DC is outta here we're a tremendously better team even if the person replacing them is only marginally better & completely discounting what's going with the other side of the ball.

Furthermore, You're not called a 3 time superbowl winning coach's protege for nothing.

Look, i'm not opposed to drafting o-linemen anywhere in the draft, i just want the FO to sieze things when they have the opportunity

HuttoKarl
03-06-2007, 03:09 PM
I'd think we'd be improved if we took Ugoh or Staley in the second and Datish or Satele in the third. Use that first for a real difference-maker, either offensively or defensively.

Ole Miss Texan
03-06-2007, 03:36 PM
I'd think we'd be improved if we took Ugoh or Staley in the second and Datish or Satele in the third. Use that first for a real difference-maker, either offensively or defensively.

me too. IF spencer comes back full strength..and winston is good enough to be our starter from here on out...I think the only thing we need besides depth would be a young Center.

Kalil should be our man whatever it takes...If we aren't going to get him...which I doubt we will...I REALLY hope they are looking at Satele, Datish, and the other C's in this draft...to see if they think they're starter material for our team.

real
03-06-2007, 03:50 PM
Look, if there was a seriously realistic good chance that Joe Thomas could fall to us, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, most fans would probably be on board with taking him.

& Yeah i do think that from a few picks you can tell a coaches philosophy, especially if he's a 1st year head coach. The problem with your logic is that this just isn't a "few picks" this is the 1st round first picks of his coaching career, they carry considerablly more weight than other picks. besides I think last year was considered the best draft for qb's in YEARS & he passed on every single 1 of them. also you'd have to be crazy to think that Belichick didn't rub off on Mangini just a little bit, the coaching style, dress, motivational tactics, demeanor etc. It is specualtion, but what's also speculation/an assumption on your part is that if DC is outta here we're a tremendously better team even if the person replacing them is only marginally better & completely discounting what's going with the other side of the ball.

Furthermore, You're not called a 3 time superbowl winning coach's protege for nothing.




You've just set yourself up.


Mangini is to Belichick as Kubiak is to Shanahan...Both have won multiple SuperBowls and both have teams that are pretty much always competitive, yet they do it in different ways...


Kubes took a DE, and a LB with his first two picks....


If your theory is to be used across the board, and not just instances in which you want to be proven right then we really shouldn't be having this conversation, because there is no way we'd be taking a LT@ 8 this year.....

Arky
03-06-2007, 05:04 PM
Just some Offense stats to add to the conversation:

In 2006, the Texans were #21 in rushing and #27 in passing, however, combined rushing and passing, they ranked #28 overall. Only Tampa Bay, Cleveland, Oakland and Buffalo had worse production from the offenses last year.

Their best overall offensive finish was #19 in 2004. The other 3 years not mentioned, they finished #30, #31 and #32.

The Texans best rushing production years were 2004 and 2005 when they finished #12 and #15, respectively.

The Texans best passing year was 2004 when they finished #18.

The Texans have never finished in the top 10 in any of the major offense categories.

Mr teX
03-06-2007, 05:23 PM
You've just set yourself up.


Mangini is to Belichick as Kubiak is to Shanahan...Both have won multiple SuperBowls and both have teams that are pretty much always competitive, yet they do it in different ways...


Kubes took a DE, and a LB with his first two picks....


If your theory is to be used across the board, and not just instances in which you want to be proven right then we really shouldn't be having this conversation, because there is no way we'd be taking a LT@ 8 this year.....

You don't think that Kubes & co would take thomas if he fell to us?

Set myself up for what? I too feel fairly confident that they won't take any left tackle @ 8 but i couldn't/wouldn't be mad @ him if took another highly touted LT prospect, b/c it's obvious that we need the help & i would just rather not wait to see if spencer can come back strong; much like you would rather not wait to see if DC ever materializes into anything at QB.

And it's not just to be proven right Belichick/Shanahan's first ever picks as coaches for their respective teams were linemen, allbeit they were not 1st rounders, but you get the picture.

Navy_Chris
03-06-2007, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=xtruroyaltyx;616781]You've just set yourself up.

....Kubes took a DE, and a LB with his first two picks....[QUOTE]

Correction, Charley Casserly took a DE with the #1 pick. Just my 2 cents.

Runner
03-06-2007, 06:13 PM
Their best overall offensive finish was #19 in 2004. The other 3 years not mentioned, they finished #30, #31 and #32.

The Texans best rushing production years were 2004 and 2005 when they finished #12 and #15, respectively.

The Texans best passing year was 2004 when they finished #18.


The difference between 2004 and 2005 on offense?

1) Billy Miller cut.
2) Seth Wand replaced by Victor Riley.
3) More Pendry, less Palmer influence on the offense.

I think that covers it.

Double Barrel
03-06-2007, 07:34 PM
Instead we should depend on our line full of pro-bowlers, Stud RB, and two beastly recievers....And oh yeah...A defense that only allows 100 total yards a game...

Now that is a winning gameplan....except for that whole 'reality sets in' problem of obtaining the talent we'll need to implement said gameplan. :winky:

Here's a good read about the effect of a veteran QB presence to an offensive line.

http://extremeravens.com/columnists/tim_sylvester/the_effect_of_a_veteran/

Interesting read, and definitely well said about the impact a QB can have on his line and offense in general.

Erratic Assassin
03-06-2007, 08:16 PM
BUT still we have some talent:

Winston - should step up to start this season, possibly at RT
Weary - played well last year, start at RG
Flannigan - hurt last year, start at C
McKinney - soild backup G or C, can start if necessary
Pitts - best OL we have can start variety of spots
Salaam - great backup T insurance
Spencer - cannot be relied up due to injury

Pitts (our best lineman) is adequate and I'm not anywhere near sold on Winston.

It goes straight downhill from there. I would not describe Weary, McKinney, or Salaam as "talent" as in "Wow, look at all the talent we have there!" They are the epitome of warm bodies. Flanagan looks washed up, and we've probably got as much chance of seeing Spencer again as do of seeing Tony Boselli.

It does us no good to sugar coat it. We have a bad offensive line. The sooner we start facing facts, the sooner we can do something to fix it. We've been ignoring this problem for 5 years. It's time to stop ignoring the 900 pound gorilla in the room.

texas mopar
03-06-2007, 09:35 PM
Pitts (our best lineman) is adequate and I'm not anywhere near sold on Winston.

It goes straight downhill from there. I would not describe Weary, McKinney, or Salaam as "talent" as in "Wow, look at all the talent we have there!" They are the epitome of warm bodies. Flanagan looks washed up, and we've probably got as much chance of seeing Spencer again as do of seeing Tony Boselli.

It does us no good to sugar coat it. We have a bad offensive line. The sooner we start facing facts, the sooner we can do something to fix it. We've been ignoring this problem for 5 years. It's time to stop ignoring the 900 pound gorilla in the room.

Finally the truth is told!!! We need to fix the OL ,it is not going to go away. Why so many over look this is beon me . Whomever the QB is next year deserves the chance to succeed. I have always believed the game is won and lost at the line both off. and def!!!

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 10:18 PM
The difference between 2004 and 2005 on offense?

1) Billy Miller cut.
2) Seth Wand replaced by Victor Riley.
3) More Pendry, less Palmer influence on the offense.

I think that covers it.

Just in case anyone missed it. Victor Riley was Kansas City's 1st round selection in 1998(27th overall).

Runner
03-06-2007, 10:20 PM
Ephraim Salaam started in 14 games and played 15....7.5 sacks (http://http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=4428&Submit=Go)

Eric Winston started 7 games and played in 12....2.5 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7815&Submit=Go)



Ferguson played in 16 games and started 16....10 sacks (http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/playerstats.asp?id=7753&Submit=Go)



Ferguson probably would have given up 2 sacks in 16 games had his QB thrown 3 yard passes most of the time. This isn't to defend Ferguson for giving up 10 sacks, but to put Winston and Salaam's numbers in some sort of perspective.

The entire Texans offense is set up to avoid sacks because the QB and the line aren't very good in the passing game. Reductio ad absurdum: If a team runs the ball every single play of the season I doubt the line would be in the pro-bowl based on the fact they gave up 0 sacks.

Runner
03-06-2007, 10:25 PM
Just in case anyone missed it. Victor Riley was Kansas City's 1st round selection in 1998(27th overall).

To be fair, Riley was past his prime and was a right tackle moved to the left side. His conditioning left a lot to be desired too.

Also to be fair, Wand was the left tackle for the best offense the Texans have put on the field. Too bad he didn't get another year to develop.

I think it will be a very good sign that the Texans coaching staff has improved if they continue to develop Winston rather than dump him for having some rough spots last year.

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 10:35 PM
Pitts (our best lineman) is adequate and I'm not anywhere near sold on Winston.


Just saying... the best left tackle on our team... in '06, Was Eric Winston.

In the Nashville game, it was Winston that subbed for Salaam when Salaam got cut by the two Linebackers. He came in for 7 plays, 5 pass plays, 1 run, and one designed run for the QB.

He was solid... he didn't give up any ground, and looked good. I honestly don't know why Kubiak put Salaam back in the game. Salaam was playing well up till that point, but after that, LaBoy owned him.

& I say that as someone who supports Salaam. He was having so much trouble and Winston didn't just look good, he looked Damn good.

Heck, VanDenBosh had 4 sacks on Weigart, 3 taken away by penalty. He should have been benched with David.

I'm not saying Winston is our answer at left Tackle, But Spencer didn't look as good in the 1.5 games he played.

swtbound07
03-06-2007, 10:40 PM
Lets see I guess we can all whip out our tapes and watch all 16 games and let you know later.
Thanks for making my point. Thats what David has played with the last 5 years in front of him, retreads, back ups and Rookies.

something about the worlds smallest violin playing "My heart bleeds for you"

thunderkyss
03-06-2007, 10:44 PM
To be fair, Riley was past his prime and was a right tackle moved to the left side. His conditioning left a lot to be desired too.

Also to be fair, Wand was the left tackle for the best offense the Texans have put on the field. Too bad he didn't get another year to develop.

I think it will be a very good sign that the Texans coaching staff has improved if they continue to develop Winston rather than dump him for having some rough spots last year.

I have no idea why Wand is no longer on this team.

Riley was taken in the same draft as Kyle Turley(who is starting for KC, Jason Fabini & Ephraim Salaam(7th round pick, 199 overall, Atlanta). Just some other names you might recognize.

real
03-07-2007, 10:05 AM
Correction, Charley Casserly took a DE with the #1 pick. Just my 2 cents.

That was Kubiak's pick....

Our orginization would have to be the dumbest one ever to let a man who's on his way out the door make a decision like that...

Casserly probably had a lot of input, but Kubiak made that decision...

real
03-07-2007, 10:08 AM
much like you would rather not wait to see if DC ever materializes into anything at QB.


No...

The situations are nothing alike...

texans83
03-07-2007, 10:09 AM
That was Kubiak's pick....

Our orginization would have to be the dumbest one ever to let a man who's on his way out the door make a decision like that...

Casserly probably had a lot of input, but Kubiak made that decision...

Correct, CC would have prob would have traded it for a 6th and 7th rounder and threw in AJ just for the hell of it in return for Ricky Williams..

real
03-07-2007, 10:15 AM
Ferguson probably would have given up 2 sacks in 16 games had his QB thrown 3 yard passes most of the time. This isn't to defend Ferguson for giving up 10 sacks, but to put Winston and Salaam's numbers in some sort of perspective.

The entire Texans offense is set up to avoid sacks because the QB and the line aren't very good in the passing game. Reductio ad absurdum: If a team runs the ball every single play of the season I doubt the line would be in the pro-bowl based on the fact they gave up 0 sacks.


You're absolutely right...

But that's not really the point...

We were discussing the Jets success this year and the role Pennington VS. D'Brick/Mangold played...

I was merely showing that D'Brick, chosen 4th overall, was nothing great...In fact he was pretty poor....He gave up as many sacks as two of our lineman combined....

By no means was I trying to say Winston or Salaam are great, or even good, pass blockers...Just that D'bricks 10 sacks doesn't seem like too helpful a hand...

Mr teX
03-07-2007, 12:22 PM
No...

The situations are nothing alike...

Come on man, Each players overall situations really have nothing to do with it. The fact is DC hasn't lived up to his potential in 6 yrs. so you advocate that he needs to go NOW in which i agree, & Spencer's career is already in jeopardy after the injury he suffered after only a few games, so he potentially won't even get a chance to play anymore. I'm not advocating we cut/trade him just yet, but if it's found he can't play anymore, then moves in the draft need to be made to solidify our line before we throw someone else back there to take snaps.
All that means is that Spencer's hand is being forced by the injury & DC's is just now being forced by the fans/organization/players.

Sugarcoat how our line hasn't been all that bad all you want, but the reality is, it doesn't matter who's back there, If our o-line personnel stays the same we're destined for failure. Remember Mckinney, Pitts & Weary have all been here as long as DC. We've undervalued how much of a factor the O-line play in the offense & winning games long enough, For once i'd like to see them make that a priority instead of one of the skill positions.

That's all i'm going to say on it.

El Amigo Invisible
03-07-2007, 12:27 PM
Do you people think Weary was a good pick for us?I just noticed that he was picked right before Clinton Portis.:confused:

Ole Miss Texan
03-07-2007, 12:30 PM
Do you people think Weary was a good pick for us?I just noticed that he was picked right before Clinton Portis.:confused:

yes i do...but i'd rather us take clinton portis than jabar gaffney who we picked earlier that 2nd round. weary is one of the more solid olineman we've had and he's lasted us this long.

real
03-07-2007, 01:21 PM
For once i'd like to see them make that a priority instead of one of the skill positions.


I don't understand what you mean by this statement...

Define "priority"...

Spled
03-07-2007, 01:35 PM
I like Winston. He seemed to be making some pretty big holes for Ron Dayne last year. If his pass blocking improves he'll be a steal for us.

El Amigo Invisible
03-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Do we need to draft any Offensive Guard? I think we are set but LT is a position we need to draft and DT.

threetoedpete
03-07-2007, 01:47 PM
I have no idea why Wand is no longer on this team.

Riley was taken in the same draft as Kyle Turley(who is starting for KC, Jason Fabini & Ephraim Salaam(7th round pick, 199 overall, Atlanta). Just some other names you might recognize.

And yet you keep posting.

Look, lets see if Erick can handle ORT before we interject stuff that isn't true on him. If he locks down right takcle, I'd say that would be a prety fair recovery from a severly injured leg three years ago. I'd be satisfied with the 66th we spent on him. Tallent at left tackle matters. If it didn't Huchtinson and Steinbauch would of gotten 60 million instead of 49 million. It matters. And for every Fabinni and Salaam there are a hundreds who are now working at sears or have a whistle wraped around their necks because they didn't make it. What's your point ? Some times you get lucky after the second round and hit a good RT prospect ? How's that been working for us over the last five years there TK ?

I'd say our batting average has been unremarkable in hitting guys after the second. They go C, DE or Cb with the two we're going to see how our luck holds again in '07. I can stand it as long as you an Xt can.

threetoedpete
03-07-2007, 02:01 PM
Do we need to draft any Offensive Guard? I think we are set but LT is a position we need to draft and DT.

What do they call that there thingy a cunumdrum ? You got a draft loaded with gaurd/ORT guys...you don't nessicarily need one in '07, but Pitts is entering his sixth season....good team would start looking for prospects for sure. Have someone grooming in the pipe line in case Pitts goes down. But we aren't a good team. The holes are at center and OLT. There are only a handfull of high prospects on the board. And everyone I'm seeing posting a seven round Texan's Mock has the o-lineman at # 3 & 4 in need order of the draft. So aparently...the o-line is alright in most folks eyes. Lot of chips on Spencer's leg is all I know. Also on Sallam's ablity for his thirty something legs to go back to back fourteen ? ten ? games this season. Lot of snaps on those thirty year old legs last year. How many consecutive snaps do they have in them ? I'd hedge my bet that's for sure.


And that is why this thread has grown to seven pages. Either you think that the o-line is a high priorty, or you don't. I believe you build a team from the inside out. Some don't. Looks like we just might get to see what kind of contribution Xt's and TK's day two guys can make next year. Going to be a hoot.

real
03-07-2007, 02:04 PM
And yet you keep posting.

Look, lets see if Erick can handle ORT before we interject stuff that isn't true on him. If he locks down right takcle, I'd say that would be a prety fair recovery from a severly injured leg three years ago. I'd be satisfied with the 66th we spent on him. Tallent at left tackle matters. If it didn't Huchtinson and Steinbauch would of gotten 60 million instead of 49 million. It matters. And for every Fabinni and Salaam there are a hundreds who are now working at sears or have a whistle wraped around their necks because they didn't make it. What's your point ? Some times you get lucky after the second round and hit a good RT prospect ? How's that been working for us over the last five years there TK ?

I'd say our batting average has been unremarkable in hitting guys after the second. They go C, DE or Cb with the two we're going to see how our luck holds again in '07. I can stand it as long as you an Xt can.

I think all of that is Bull...

There is no science to building a team...Luck, hard work, and knowledge all come into play when building a championship caliber team...

If you can show me proof that every team that takes a lot of O-lineman in the first end up having good teams then I'd tend to agree...It doesn't matter where you take players....Your objective should be to take the most talented player on the board, as long as it's not stupid or outrageous(like taking QB in rd 1 if you have Peyton Manning)....

Mr teX
03-07-2007, 03:02 PM
I think all of that is Bull...

There is no science to building a team...Luck, hard work, and knowledge all come into play when building a championship caliber team...

If you can show me proof that every team that takes a lot of O-lineman in the first end up having good teams then I'd tend to agree...It doesn't matter where you take players....Your objective should be to take the most talented player on the board, as long as it's not stupid or outrageous(like taking QB in rd 1 if you have Peyton Manning)....

by priority i mean, putting the development of the o-line before everything else which has not been the case since the texans have come into existence. In 5 years all we've done is try to patch here , patch there & hope everything works out. We have to get away from that. BPA should really mean BSPA b/c what people mean when they say that is Best skilled player available. By the way How's that worked out for Detroit thus far? Cincinati pre Carson palmer & marvin Lewis?

And as far as the bolded, That's not what i'm getting at. It's not the fact that they are taken in the 1st round, it's the opportunity to take a highly touted O-linemen if you have the opportunity to. Many slept on Marcus Mcneill last year, but look how he solidified that line & helped propel the Chargers to a 14-2 record. The Jets are gonna get the same thing from D-brick & mangold too.

threetoedpete
03-07-2007, 03:20 PM
I think all of that is Bull...

There is no science to building a team...Luck, hard work, and knowledge all come into play when building a championship caliber team...

If you can show me proof that every team that takes a lot of O-lineman in the first end up having good teams then I'd tend to agree...It doesn't matter where you take players....Your objective should be to take the most talented player on the board, as long as it's not stupid or outrageous(like taking QB in rd 1 if you have Peyton Manning)....

Well I believe that we'll never agree. But I think Mr. McNair is paying all of these scouts, coaches and capologist for a reason. I think the combine is more than just a circus side show. You on the other hand think the Draft is a farce ? Why would they waiste all of this time and energy if it was "LUCK" ? I mean why do the process at all. Where they go means something. Joe Thomas is rated where he is for a reason. And if they do as you suggest BPA irregaudless of circumstance, ...what it looks like they're going to do...you too will be a believer. The only question is how long befor you abandon your threories ? You're a hard head...I give you two more seasons of this stuff befor you leap into the bandwagon. The draft isn't an exact science, but it isn't throwing dice illeaglly for ill gotten gains either. There is a reason JT will go in the top five and why Mario Henreson will go in the fifth. You always build a team through the lines. the line...the lines..the lines. Period. You ain't got the lines you're not going anywhere. I don't care who's at RB,QB what ever. You're a dead duck befor the starters gun.

The reason we are where we are is because we could not, would not do this at the franchises inception. They tried may be with Bosselli. The more I think about Bosselli though it looks like a deal to get the other two guys than it was Bosselli.

Yes...if you're o-line suxs, has suxed for five years...you bite the bullet and relief that pressure. Above all else. If we don't do it this year, eventually Kubiak and Smith will do it. To do it any other way is an open invitation to disaster. And this franchise has proved that in spades. I'll go further there XT...They draft Quinn, it will be DC II if they don't get the lines fixed. Then five years from now...you can explain it to me why after watching the QB get beat down again for another five years, how stupid it is once again not to go BPA. Period. I can stand it as long as you can.

santo
03-07-2007, 03:28 PM
HOUSTON - The Houston Texans have named Frank Pollack their assistant offensive line coach, it was announced today.



Does anybody know anything about this guy?




http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=3352&section=N%20Latest%20News

HOU-TEX
03-07-2007, 03:29 PM
Well I believe that we'll never agree. But I think Mr. McNair is paying all of these scouts, coaches and capologist for a reason. I think the combine is more than just a circus side show. You on the other hand think the Draft is a frace ? Why would they waiste all of this time and energy if it was "LUCK" ? I mean why do the process at all. Where they go means something. Joe Thomas is rated where he is for a reason. And if they do as you suggest BPA irregaudless of circumstance, ...what it looks like they're going to do...you too will be a believer. The only question is how long befor you abandon your threories ? You're a hard head...I give you two more seasons of this stuff befor you leap into the bandwagon. The draft isn't an exact science, but it isn't throwing dice illeaglly for ill gotten gains either. There is a reason JT will go in the top five and why Mario Henreson will go in the fifth. You always build a team through the lines. the line...the lines..the lines. Period. You ain't got the lines you're not going anywhere. I don't care who's at RB,QB what ever. You're a dead duck befor the starters gun.

The reason we are where we are is because we could not, would not do this at the franchises inception. They tried may be with Bosselli. The more I think about Bosselli though it looks like a deal to get the other two guys than it was Bosselli.

Yes...if you're o-line suxs, has suxed for five years...you bite the bullet and relief that pressure. Above all else. If we don't do it this year, eventually Kubiak and Smith will do it. To do it any other way is an open invitation to disaster. And this franchise has proved that in spades. I'll go further there XT...They draft Quinn, it will be DC II if they don't get the lines fixed. Then five years from now...you can explain it to me why after watching the QB get beat down again for another five years, how stupid it is once again not to go BPA. Period. I can stand it as long as you can.

Is there a translation button I can hit somewhere? Gesus! I was beginning to lose brain cells half way through.:confused:

threetoedpete
03-07-2007, 03:39 PM
I think all of that is Bull...

There is no science to building a team...Luck, hard work, and knowledge all come into play when building a championship caliber team...

If you can show me proof that every team that takes a lot of O-lineman in the first end up having good teams then I'd tend to agree...It doesn't matter where you take players....Your objective should be to take the most talented player on the board, as long as it's not stupid or outrageous(like taking QB in rd 1 if you have Peyton Manning)....

Ah yes it does. There is a tallent level between Joe thomas and Mario Willaims. It's not a guess. Joe Thomas is more tallented a player than Mario Henderson. Just Like All Day is more Tallent that Marshawn Lynch. You can expect both Joe Thomas and All Day to have much better carreers...all things being equal. I noticed on your list...you leave out tallent in the equation. So there is no reason why they have a hall of fame ?

All of these guys, wether drafted first or fifth, in your mind, are basically the same. So tell me why do they pay them differing salleries ? I mean if the tallent thingy doesn't matter...why not just split the players money fifty two ways and be done with it. Wand didn't make it for a reason. Neither did Victor Rilley, Ryan Tucker, Chester Pitts (at OLT) and Boselli. They lacked the tallent to play there. Tallent matters. It isn't just luck. It isn't fate. No matter how hard you work no tallent...it's still no tallent no matter how hard you coach it. And Yes we don't have Orlando Pace at OLT...It would be rediculas to draft there if we're talking about OP. But we're not. We're talking about a #65 pick with a hurt leg . And no one knows if the blood flow will ever get there enough to the cartledge to recoup "the tallent" he once had.. Indeed one of us is being very foolish. Drafting safties and RB's when there is a dire need at the one consistant sore spot since this franchise opened for business. OLT. They may BPA again, but they'll suck again too untill they adress it.

threetoedpete
03-07-2007, 03:52 PM
Is there a translation button I can hit somewhere? Gesus! I was beginning to lose brain cells half way through.:confused:

And you with so few to spare. Sorry about that. Bet ya got that. I'll go for the two sentence replys the next time I see you are on. I'm done you can rest now. And there is that button thingy on the top there.

infantrycak
03-07-2007, 04:05 PM
It's not a guess. Just Like All Day is more Tallent that Marshawn Lynch.

You won't find an NFL scout, coach or GM that will agree with you that the draft is anything but an educated guess. Every year the actual performance is replete with examples where the scouts evaluated the TALENT wrong. Example--there was almost universal agreement Marcus McNeil was not as talented as Ferguson and most likely couldn't even make it as a LT. Oops, pro-bowl.

HOU-TEX
03-07-2007, 04:08 PM
And you with so few to spare. Sorry about that. Bet ya got that. I'll go for the two sentence replys the next time I see you are on. I'm done you can rest now. And there is that button thingy on the top there.

LOL! Relax Champ. I was just toolin with ya.:joker:

real
03-07-2007, 04:50 PM
by priority i mean, putting the development of the o-line before everything else which has not been the case since the texans have come into existence. In 5 years all we've done is try to patch here , patch there & hope everything works out. We have to get away from that. BPA should really mean BSPA b/c what people mean when they say that is Best skilled player available. By the way How's that worked out for Detroit thus far? Cincinati pre Carson palmer & marvin Lewis?

And as far as the bolded, That's not what i'm getting at. It's not the fact that they are taken in the 1st round, it's the opportunity to take a highly touted O-linemen if you have the opportunity to. Many slept on Marcus Mcneill last year, but look how he solidified that line & helped propel the Chargers to a 14-2 record. The Jets are gonna get the same thing from D-brick & mangold too.

Well I believe that we'll never agree. But I think Mr. McNair is paying all of these scouts, coaches and capologist for a reason. I think the combine is more than just a circus side show. You on the other hand think the Draft is a farce ? Why would they waiste all of this time and energy if it was "LUCK" ? I mean why do the process at all. Where they go means something. Joe Thomas is rated where he is for a reason. And if they do as you suggest BPA irregaudless of circumstance, ...what it looks like they're going to do...you too will be a believer. The only question is how long befor you abandon your threories ? You're a hard head...I give you two more seasons of this stuff befor you leap into the bandwagon. The draft isn't an exact science, but it isn't throwing dice illeaglly for ill gotten gains either. There is a reason JT will go in the top five and why Mario Henreson will go in the fifth. You always build a team through the lines. the line...the lines..the lines. Period. You ain't got the lines you're not going anywhere. I don't care who's at RB,QB what ever. You're a dead duck befor the starters gun.

The reason we are where we are is because we could not, would not do this at the franchises inception. They tried may be with Bosselli. The more I think about Bosselli though it looks like a deal to get the other two guys than it was Bosselli.

Yes...if you're o-line suxs, has suxed for five years...you bite the bullet and relief that pressure. Above all else. If we don't do it this year, eventually Kubiak and Smith will do it. To do it any other way is an open invitation to disaster. And this franchise has proved that in spades. I'll go further there XT...They draft Quinn, it will be DC II if they don't get the lines fixed. Then five years from now...you can explain it to me why after watching the QB get beat down again for another five years, how stupid it is once again not to go BPA. Period. I can stand it as long as you can.

Please show me one post where I have said that O-line isn't important...Doesn't matter, or should be taken care of last ?

Please show me one post where I said having a good line is not a priority....


Stating that you don't have to draft lineman high, is not the same as saying "it isn't a priority"....

If we can draft lineman the caliber of Spencer and Winston in the third round, how is that not making the line a priority ?

It's called getting bang for your buck....

Ex: I'm going to take Calvin Johnson & Ryan Kalil 99 times out of 99 over Joe Thomas and Sidney Rice....

If I have a need at QB and LT I'm going to take Peyton Manning and Chester Pitts over Johnathan Ogden and Drew Stanton..

That's just how I roll.....

I am just of the belief that you can get good quality lineman, especially for our system, in rds. 2-7 in this years draft....I don't have rules, or Laws because every draft is unique...But for the purposes of this years draft, I'm not too into the notion of reaching for lineman to "fill a need"....

thunderkyss
03-07-2007, 05:09 PM
And yet you keep posting.

and still, you have no clue.

Look, lets see if Erick can handle ORT before we interject stuff that isn't true on him.

Now the post you quoted doesn't have me saying 1 thing about Eric Winston, so I'm going to have to assume which of my post you could be referring to. However, since I tend to tell you exactly what I'm talking about, by describing the game, the results, and my opinion of what I saw, I'd like for you to produce whichever post about Eric Winston where I interjected something with no basis in fact.


If he locks down right takcle, I'd say that would be a prety fair recovery from a severly injured leg three years ago. I'd be satisfied with the 66th we spent on him.

Explain to me why you don't think he's "locked down" right takcle(or however you want to spell it).

Then try to explain to me why I should care how satisfied you are with anything.

Tallent at left tackle matters.

Did I say it didn't??

If it didn't Huchtinson and Steinbauch would of gotten 60 million instead of 49 million.

which of those two guys play LT in the NFL?

It matters. And for every Fabinni and Salaam there are a hundreds who are now working at sears or have a whistle wraped around their necks because they didn't make it. What's your point ?

My point (at least for bringing up those names) was just a frame of reference of how washed up Victor Riley is, by naming some of the other Tackles who were drafted with him. I don't think Fabini has played well in a good 3 years, & Salaam is & has been a back-up for what?? 5 years.

Some times you get lucky after the second round and hit a good RT prospect ? How's that been working for us over the last five years there TK ?

I don't think we've put enough talent around our RTs to properly evaluate them.

I'd say our batting average has been unremarkable in hitting guys after the second. They go C, DE or Cb with the two we're going to see how our luck holds again in '07.

Would you care to back that up with fact, or should I just take your word?? your opinion?? your interjections??

Mr teX
03-07-2007, 05:13 PM
Please show me one post where I have said that O-line isn't important...Doesn't matter, or should be taken care of last ?

Please show me one post where I said having a good line is not a priority....


Stating that you don't have to draft lineman high, is not the same as saying "it isn't a priority"....

If we can draft lineman the caliber of Spencer and Winston in the third round, how is that not making the line a priority ?

It's called getting bang for your buck....

Ex: I'm going to take Calvin Johnson & Ryan Kalil 99 times out of 99 over Joe Thomas and Sidney Rice....

If I have a need at QB and LT I'm going to take Peyton Manning and Chester Pitts over Johnathan Ogden and Drew Stanton..

That's just how I roll.....

I am just of the belief that you can get good quality lineman, especially for our system, in rds. 2-7 in this years draft....I don't have rules, or Laws because every draft is unique...But for the purposes of this years draft, I'm not too into the notion of reaching for lineman to "fill a need"....

That's how we've been rolling the last 5 years & it hasn't worked, so just maybe we outta change our strategy. Pitts is the only guy on our line/roster that We drafted higher than the 3rd Rd. Everyone else we drafted is 3 & below. & going into last year's draft, 3 of those guys aren't even on our roster anymore much less the league. Hodgden is barely hanging on.

real
03-07-2007, 05:20 PM
It's not the fact that they are taken in the 1st round, it's the opportunity to take a highly touted O-linemen if you have the opportunity to. Many slept on Marcus Mcneill last year, but look how he solidified that line & helped propel the Chargers to a 14-2 record. The Jets are gonna get the same thing from D-brick & mangold too.

I'll use your own example against you...

D'Brick was more highly touted that McNeil....If you are going to grab the lineman with all the hype, you'd have ended up with 10 sacks being given up by one player vs. grabbing a lineman in the second round who ended up in the pro-bowl...

Instead of having D'Brick, Mangold and Kellen Clemens (chosen ONE pick ahead of McNeil) They could have had Leinart, McNeil and Mangold....

Hmmmm....:hmmm:

Clemens(didn't play), D-Brick(10 sacks allowed), Mangold

VS.

Leinart(!),McNeil(pro-bowl rookie), Mangold


Can I get a freakin AMEN ?!

thunderkyss
03-07-2007, 05:23 PM
the line...the lines..the lines.They draft Quinn, it will be DC II if they don't get the lines fixed. Then five years from now...you can explain it to me why after watching the QB get beat down again for another five years, how stupid it is once again not to go BPA. Period. I can stand it as long as you can.


Are you saying that Levi Brown will be the BPA at #8, even if Quinn is there??

& can you show me where either I, or Xtru said that you shouldn't take BPA?? I think we both believe very much in BPA...

You & I may disagree on who that BPA is, If I had to chose between Levi Brown & Brady Quinn, as a Texan, I'm taking Quinn. If I were a Bear, I'd take Quinn, If I were an Eagle, I'd take Landry(if he's there).

real
03-07-2007, 05:23 PM
That's how we've been rolling the last 5 years & it hasn't worked, so just maybe we outta change our strategy. Pitts is the only guy on our line/roster that We drafted higher than the 3rd Rd. Everyone else we drafted is 3 & below. & going into last year's draft, 3 of those guys aren't even on our roster anymore much less the league. Hodgden is barely hanging on.

You're acting like we've done a good job drafting period...

LOOK AT THE JOB THEY DID DRAFTING AS A WHOLE...

THEY MISSED ON MORE THAN JUST LINEMAN....

I trust that this staff knows how to evaluate talent a little better and won't be giving up and second rd. picks for P-buch and taking any first rounders like Babin or T.J....

That hasn't been our strategy...Had we made better use of those picks, our team would be a lot better and we wouldn't be talking about how "it's the lines' fault" we suck...

real
03-07-2007, 05:27 PM
I find it hilarious that you all use the past regimes late rd. O-lineman picks as a barometer....Then say because so and so didn't pan out we should pick lineman early from now on...NEWS FLASH: HARDLY ANY OF THEIR PICKS PANNED OUT, NOT JUST LINEMAN.......Look at what they did in general in the draft...You're using Hogdon, and Pitts and others as examples, when this regime picks Winston and Spencer ? Two starting Quality tackles....vs. Hogdon and Spencer ? We also picked a QB that's not doing so good in the first rd...and and two D-lineman that aren't so hott...I guess because the previous regime missed on them we should avoid picking those positions in early rds...Great strategy....Keep on using the past regimes picks as examples if you want to....I don't know why you would though...they obviously SUCKED all around.

Obviously this crew has a better eye for picking up quality late round talent(that includes lineman)

thunderkyss
03-07-2007, 05:29 PM
Drafting safties and RB's when there is a dire need at the one consistant sore spot since this franchise opened for business. OLT. They may BPA again, but they'll suck again too untill they adress it.

So..... now you're saying we shouldn't draft BPA, but draft a lineman at that spot??

Or are we talking about the magical trade down and get Brown??

I'm not saying we shouldn't trade down, just saying we can't trade down, just because we want to.

Ole Miss Texan
03-07-2007, 05:31 PM
Instead of having D'Brick, Mangold and Kellen Clemens (chosen ONE pick ahead of McNeil) They could have had Leinart, McNeil and Mangold....

Hmmmm....:hmmm:

Clemens(didn't play), D-Brick(10 sacks allowed), Mangold

VS.

Leinart(!),McNeil(pro-bowl rookie), Mangold


Can I get a freakin AMEN ?!

dang...i didn't notice that....'freakin AMEN'!! lol

real
03-07-2007, 05:34 PM
dang...i didn't notice that....'freakin AMEN'!! lol

Thanks bro...LOL

Everyone points to the Jets as a success, and I like what they did, but I think if they had gone a slightly different route they could have done SO MUCH better...But because "their strategy" is to "build through the lines" they passed on a possible elite QB, and a pro-bowl LT...And they in essence ended up with neither....because of their stupid "strategy"...(not really all that stupid, you just have to evaluate better and not draft a certain way because of your beliefs or the "way you were taught" or "the systen you come from")

thunderkyss
03-07-2007, 05:47 PM
That's how we've been rolling the last 5 years & it hasn't worked, so just maybe we outta change our strategy. Pitts is the only guy on our line/roster that We drafted higher than the 3rd Rd. Everyone else we drafted is 3 & below. & going into last year's draft, 3 of those guys aren't even on our roster anymore much less the league. Hodgden is barely hanging on.

Erik Pears started 10 games for the Broncos at LT. He was an undrafted FA from 2005. the Broncos are trading away their 1st round LT(who never started at LT) for a 2nd round CB. The trade still wasn't even. The Broncos had to add a 2nd round RB(still on his rookie contract) & a 5th round pick to even up the trade.

Ben Hamilton started 16 games at left guard. Drafted in the 4th round 2001, 113th overall.

Tom Nalen started 16 games at Center, drafted in the 7th round, 218 overall, in 1994.

Cooper Carlisle started 16 games at RG, drafted in the 4th round 112th overall in 2000.

And Adam Meadows started the last three games(taking over for the 1st round RT(Foster)), he was drafted in the 2nd round, 48th overall in 1997.

IT hasn't worked, but my coach isn't bringing in has beens & never was(es) at LT, LG, Center, RG, or RT this offseason to "fix" a problem.

real
03-08-2007, 09:30 AM
Ben Hamilton started 16 games at left guard. Drafted in the 4th round 2001, 113th overall.

Tom Nalen started 16 games at Center, drafted in the 7th round, 218 overall, in 1994.

Cooper Carlisle started 16 games at RG, drafted in the 4th round 112th overall in 2000.

And Adam Meadows started the last three games(taking over for the 1st round RT(Foster)), he was drafted in the 2nd round, 48th overall in 1997.



Because of our scheme we don't need the biggest, strongest linemen...guys that might not get chances in other systems because they aren't physically imposing or dont have eye popping measurables can play in ours if they're quick have good feet and are atleast strong enough to hold at the point of attack...

Even on a lot of the passing plays pressure is taken off of the line because they're set up with play actions.

I'd be all over a lineman in the first if the value was good...But I honestly believe we can get an offensive lineman as good a Levi Jones would be in our system, in a later round...but thats JMO.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 09:42 AM
I'd be all over a lineman in the first if the value was good...But I honestly believe we can get an offensive lineman as good a Levi Jones would be in our system, in a later round...but thats JMO.

I see Levi as a guy who could start from Day one. I didn't see that in Spencer. Most of the guys I mentioned, playing for Denver, did not start the majority of games for Denver their first year. They took about a year, to unlearn whatever they knew before, and learn the new system. Pears for example wasn't activated for one game of that '05 season.

If we work out a deal, to trade down and get Jones, and some extra picks... I've got no problem with that. But to reach and take him at 8, when there are going to be "better" options... I'm not down with that. I'd pick that Lineman up later in the draft, force him to start if we have to, but I don't think we're in that bad a shape.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 10:06 AM
Thanks bro...LOL

Everyone points to the Jets as a success, and I like what they did, but I think if they had gone a slightly different route they could have done SO MUCH better...But because "their strategy" is to "build through the lines" they passed on a possible elite QB, and a pro-bowl LT...And they in essence ended up with neither....because of their stupid "strategy"...(not really all that stupid, you just have to evaluate better and not draft a certain way because of your beliefs or the "way you were taught" or "the systen you come from")


Let's see, Jets went to the playoffs & the texans eeked out 6 wins & are picking top 10 again.
Are u kidding me? calling there strategy "stupid" after they made a playoff run while were sitting at home watching seems kind of stupid to me.
At this point between both of our franchises how can you argue with the way they went in the draft? All that is hindsight now anyway. I feel confident in saying that If the script was flipped & D'brick was chosen in the 2nd round do you think Mcneil would've gone to the pro bowl? Probably not since he would've been playing with a top 5 pick team. The consensus by almost every draft expert at the time of evaluating was D'brick was better than Mcneil so i don't really see your point, both of those guys still went higher than any lineman we've ever drafted & whether it was the individual or the team, each 1 of their teams did more than we did last year.

& if you feel so confident in the new regime's drafting & talent evaluation skills then you shouldn't have any problem if DC is around here next year competing for a starting spot, but i know that can't be true can it?

real
03-08-2007, 10:10 AM
Let's see, Jets went to the playoffs & the texans eeked out 6 wins & are picking top 10 again.
Are u kidding me? calling there strategy "stupid" after they made a playoff run while were sitting at home watching seems kind of stupid to me.
At this point between both of our franchises how can you argue with the way they went in the draft? All that is hindsight now anyway. I feel confident in saying that If the script was flipped & D'brick was chosen in the 2nd round do you think Mcneil would've gone to the pro bowl? Probably not since he would've been playing with a top 5 pick team. The consensus by almost every draft expert at the time of evaluating was D'brick was better than Mcneil so i don't really see your point, both of those guys still went higher than any lineman we've ever drafted & whether it was the individual or the team, each 1 of their teams did more than we did last year.

& if you feel so confident in the new regime's drafting & talent evaluation skills then you shouldn't have any problem if DC is around here next year competing for a starting spot, but i know that can't be true can it?

Yeah...

Your team is only as good as it's last draft....

What was I thinking....:ok:

real
03-08-2007, 10:17 AM
& if you feel so confident in the new regime's drafting & talent evaluation skills then you shouldn't have any problem if DC is around here next year competing for a starting spot, but i know that can't be true can it?

If I go to the doctor I trust that the doctor will be efficient, and thorough in whatever he's doing.

Have you ever heard of Malpractice ?


In case you haven't noticed, people DO make mistakes.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 10:26 AM
If I go to the doctor I trust that the doctor will be efficient, and thorough in whatever he's doing.

Have you ever heard of Malpractice ?


In case you haven't noticed, people DO make mistakes.


Dude, I work hand in hand with doctors every day in surgery & truthfully, that's opened my eyes to a whole lot of crap regarding expert opinion. why do you think that pro athletes go & get a 2nd & 3rd opinion when they've suffered a serious injury? It not just solely b/c they want someone to tell them what they want to hear.

Kubes would be smart to develop his draft thinking that spencer won't be back & seriously considering Brown if none of the clear top 5 guys are there when we come up at 8. At least attempt to work out a trade where we move slightly back where his potential value may be.

TwinSisters
03-08-2007, 10:30 AM
Ben Hamilton started 16 games at left guard. Drafted in the 4th round 2001, 113th overall.

Tom Nalen started 16 games at Center, drafted in the 7th round, 218 overall, in 1994.

Cooper Carlisle started 16 games at RG, drafted in the 4th round 112th overall in 2000.

And Adam Meadows started the last three games(taking over for the 1st round RT(Foster)), he was drafted in the 2nd round, 48th overall in 1997.

IT hasn't worked, but my coach isn't bringing in has beens & never was(es) at LT, LG, Center, RG, or RT this offseason to "fix" a problem.

This list isn't valid.

We don't cut block. Denver/SF/Atlanta made up for the inferior blocking skills in lineman drafted late with the cut block.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 10:31 AM
Let's see, Jets went to the playoffs & the texans eeked out 6 wins & are picking top 10 again.

The Saints didn't go OL with their first pick, and they went further than the Jets.

By the way, how did that Galloway thing go for Oakland??

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 10:33 AM
Kubes would be smart to develop his draft thinking that spencer won't be back & seriously considering Brown if none of the clear top 5 guys are there when we come up at 8. At least attempt to work out a trade where we move slightly back where his potential value may be.

Wouldn't it make more sense to consider Levi, if none of the top 8 guys are there at 8??

real
03-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Dude, I work hand in hand with doctors every day in surgery & truthfully, that's opened my eyes to a whole lot of crap regarding expert opinion. why do you think that pro athletes go & get a 2nd & 3rd opinion when they've suffered a serious injury? It not just solely b/c they want someone to tell them what they want to hear.


Maybe you didn't get it....

You asked me since I trusted Kubiaks drafting and evaluation, would I be behind him if David comes back...

And my point was, he's a human...just like everyone else...mistakes are going to happen...but overall, I trust that he's going to do a good job building this team...

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 10:47 AM
Wouldn't it make more sense to consider Levi, if none of the top 8 guys are there at 8??

IMO No b/c there is CJ, JR, JT, AD, & then either (BQ, PW, JA AO, LL & now RN ). If i'm correct after those clear cut top 4 go, there is alot of variability of who go where after them. So i guess the real questions are where is the cut off for the top 8? & what is the texans top 8?

That's not to say it wouldn't work you & XT's way either.

real
03-08-2007, 10:52 AM
Kubes would be smart to develop his draft thinking that spencer won't be back & seriously considering Brown if none of the clear top 5 guys are there when we come up at 8. At least attempt to work out a trade where we move slightly back where his potential value may be.


That's debatable....

I can probably think of about 12 or so guys I'd want before Levi.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 10:59 AM
That's debatable....

I can probably think of about 12 or so guys I'd want before Levi.

Exactly....

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 11:00 AM
IMO No b/c there is CJ, JR, JT, AD, & then either (BQ, PW, JA AO, LL & now RN ). If i'm correct after those clear cut top 4 go, there is alot of variability of who go where after them. So i guess the real questions are where is the cut off for the top 8? & what is the texans top 8?

That's not to say it wouldn't work you & XT's way either.

my way would be to pick one of the guys you have in parenthesis... BPA. We could use Quinn, Willis, Anderson, Okoye, Landry or Nelson.. not necessarily in that order. But why would you take a guy at #8, if he's not in your top 10??

real
03-08-2007, 11:03 AM
Exactly....

I don't think Kubes is as high on Levi as some of you think....


I've watched him play a couple of times, and I'm not really sure what other motive besides 'desperation' and 'lack of other prospects' pushes Levi so high up the charts....IMO, he's a late first rounder at best compared to other talent on the board...

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 11:08 AM
my way would be to pick one of the guys you have in parenthesis... BPA. We could use Quinn, Willis, Anderson, Okoye, Landry or Nelson.. not necessarily in that order. But why would you take a guy at #8, if he's not in your top 10??


That was my point. We don't know who the texans have in their top 8-10 & where all those guys are slotted in that. We could also use a Tackle of the caliber of Brown as well & maybe the texans have him in a push with other players for that 8th-10th spot in their top 10. Going back to last year, most people thought it was inconcievable Mario could end up being drafted #1 over RB, DF, VY & ML but..........well you know the rest.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 11:14 AM
I don't think Kubes is as high on Levi as some of you think....


I've watched him play a couple of times, and I'm not really sure what other motive besides 'desperation' and 'lack of other prospects' pushes Levi so high up the charts....IMO, he's a late first rounder at best compared to other talent on the board...

Maybe not, but to act like he doesn't belong in the conversation with the texans, a team notorious for having a below average o-line, i think is where we're our difference of opinion is. Truth be told i too have faith in Kubes, & i know we'll get a solid pick up at 8 or wherever we end up drafting in the top 15 no matter who it is.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 11:25 AM
That was my point. We don't know who the texans have in their top 8-10 & where all those guys are slotted in that. We could also use a Tackle of the caliber of Brown as well & maybe the texans have him in a push with other players for that 8th-10th spot in their top 10. Going back to last year, most people thought it was inconcievable Mario could end up being drafted #1 over RB, DF, VY & ML but..........well you know the rest.

I was using your list... you had ten guys, none of them named Levi Brown. If you had Levi on your list at 9 or 10, and you still rated 6 available players higher, it makes no sense to take who you think is the 9th best athelete on your list.

Last year, we all understood that Mario was as much a need as Reggie, maybe even more, because our defense was really, really bad. Most people didn't agree with taking a DE with the #1 overall, but agreed Mario may well have been #2 on our board.

Taking the guy you rated at #2 because of need is totally different from taking the 5th or 6th guy instead of the guy you have at #1.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 11:40 AM
I was using your list... you had ten guys, none of them named Levi Brown. If you had Levi on your list at 9 or 10, and you still rated 6 available players higher, it makes no sense to take who you think is the 9th best athelete on your list.

Last year, we all understood that Mario was as much a need as Reggie, maybe even more, because our defense was really, really bad. Most people didn't agree with taking a DE with the #1 overall, but agreed Mario may well have been #2 on our board.

Taking the guy you rated at #2 because of need is totally different from taking the 5th or 6th guy instead of the guy you have at #1.

I don't have a mock draft list. That list was off the head, not neccessarily drafted in the order they were presented & basically who i've seen in other mocks going well before Brown. i've only seen a handful of those guys play. Don't get it twisted, i don't think the texans will take Brown, unless we are in a trade down of some sort b/c then it at least becomes a possibility. but whose to say that they don't have PW/AD further down their list especially after their FA signings thus far?

I just think that people put too much stock in mock drafts & what a guy like Mel Kiper is saying about a prospect. No one will know until the draft begins.

good points by the way.

real
03-08-2007, 11:59 AM
Maybe not, but to act like he doesn't belong in the conversation with the texans, a team notorious for having a below average o-line, i think is where we're our difference of opinion is.


Please show me ONE post where I "acted" like Brown doesn't deserve consideration from this franchise, period.


Do I think he deserves consideration at 8 ? No. Neither do you.

All I've said is that I don't rank him that high and I wouldn't take him until the late first rd.

You're grasping for straws.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 12:18 PM
Please show me ONE post where I "acted" like Brown doesn't deserve consideration from this franchise, period.


Do I think he deserves consideration at 8 ? No. Neither do you.

All I've said is that I don't rank him that high and I wouldn't take him until the late first rd.

You're grasping for straws.

First of all homie calm down, you're getting a little too wrapped up in this, & if you research my posts in this thread, you'd see that i said "i couldn't be upset/mad" if we took him that high.

No one's grasping for anything buddy.

thunderkyss
03-08-2007, 12:57 PM
First of all homie calm down, you're getting a little too wrapped up in this, & if you research my posts in this thread, you'd see that i said "i couldn't be upset/mad" if we took him that high.

No one's grasping for anything buddy.

I think we are on the same page... I wouldn't be upset at all, if we take Levi at #8... If Landry, Quinn, & AP aren't there. I wouldn't be so surprised if Kubiak/Smith rate Brown that high.

Another thing to consider though, is how do other teams see these players. Nobody is going to trade up for Levi Brown, so do you think he'll make it to 16, or 12, or where ever you target your trade... if not, do you think the extra pick you are going to pick up warrants a pass on your guy??

I look at Brown as the only guy who could start in our system, everyone behind him, will probably take a year to develop, unless we force them into the lineup like we did with Spencer... I'd be willing to take my chances with the 16th pick.

But that means we're passing up on someone who is worth trading up for. From a GB perspective, that's AD.... I don't know if I'd take that chance then. If I was sure that Levi would still be there, then most likely, but if I believe there is a chance he won't be, then no way.

If it's Carolina willing to trade up, then that's Quinn or Russell... Just like Brown, if we draft Quinn, I won't be upset, if we don't, I won't be upset. So again, I'd feel good about dropping to 14, and getting Brown, and an extra pick.

If it's Russell... I'd be upset if we trade down.

Mr teX
03-08-2007, 01:29 PM
I think we are on the same page... I wouldn't be upset at all, if we take Levi at #8... If Landry, Quinn, & AP aren't there. I wouldn't be so surprised if Kubiak/Smith rate Brown that high.

Another thing to consider though, is how do other teams see these players. Nobody is going to trade up for Levi Brown, so do you think he'll make it to 16, or 12, or where ever you target your trade... if not, do you think the extra pick you are going to pick up warrants a pass on your guy??

I look at Brown as the only guy who could start in our system, everyone behind him, will probably take a year to develop, unless we force them into the lineup like we did with Spencer... I'd be willing to take my chances with the 16th pick.

But that means we're passing up on someone who is worth trading up for. From a GB perspective, that's AD.... I don't know if I'd take that chance then. If I was sure that Levi would still be there, then most likely, but if I believe there is a chance he won't be, then no way.

If it's Carolina willing to trade up, then that's Quinn or Russell... Just like Brown, if we draft Quinn, I won't be upset, if we don't, I won't be upset. So again, I'd feel good about dropping to 14, and getting Brown, and an extra pick.

If it's Russell... I'd be upset if we trade down.


I don't know, the texans & the draft up to that point would determine where they feel he could last up to & whether that's 12 through 16, who knows. One things for sure, extra draft picks is surely not a bad thing for us to pick up, so the answer to that question for me is yes it does warrant passing on a guy other teams covet as long he's not AD, CJ, or JT. After them, i wouldn't consider any of the other guys prospects we absolutely couldn't pass on. & that's where Brown comes into the picture for me b/c to me he could prove to be as valuable as the other guys not named above.

Besides the success rate for QB's drafted in the 1st round is not so good.

real
03-08-2007, 01:40 PM
Reaching to fill a need is exactly what Casserly and CO. did...

It all depends on how much of a need they think we have at tackle, and how high they value Levi Brown....

Adding those things up, I have a really hard time seeing the Texans taking him...

I don't even see him as a player they'd target with a trade down...


But hey, everybody has their own opinion on the subject...I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

CarrIsFine
03-08-2007, 05:42 PM
Reaching to fill a need is exactly what Casserly and CO. did...

It all depends on how much of a need they think we have at tackle, and how high they value Levi Brown....

Adding those things up, I have a really hard time seeing the Texans taking him...

I don't even see him as a player they'd target with a trade down...


But hey, everybody has their own opinion on the subject...I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

Hopefully you are wrong. The Texans just need to bite the bullet and draft an O-Lineman in the first round. If he is going to be gone in the first anyway, just do it. Spencer is an unkown and it is time to build a decent O-line. They had a good start drafting Spencer and Winston last year, keep it going.

real
03-08-2007, 05:44 PM
Hopefully you are wrong. The Texans just need to bite the bullet and draft an O-Lineman in the first round. If he is going to be gone in the first anyway, just do it. Spencer is an unkown and it is time to build a decent O-line. They had a good start drafting Spencer and Winston last year, keep it going.

That's why they just signed Black...

So Tackle becomes less of an issue...

WaywardTexanFan
03-08-2007, 05:44 PM
JORDAN BLACK A versatile fourth-year offensive tackle seeking to solidify a starting spot on the Chiefs offensive line Continues to improve as his role on offense expands Former fifth-round draft pick is the clubs top reserve behind 11-time Pro Bowler Willie Roaf at left tackle Is also a candidate to claim the starting assignment at right tackle for the Chiefs this season after starting four games at that post and six at left tackle in 2005 Instinctive and intelligent performer began last season as the Opening Day starter at right tackle before seamlessly switching to left tackle for an injured Roaf Also has seen game action working at both guard positions in his NFL career Has played in 32 games on special teams and 17 contests (14 starts) on offense during his first three seasons.

Has just signed with the Texans. The OLine is on it's way Baby :yahoo:

Texans Horror
03-08-2007, 05:54 PM
I don't know much about Black, but wasn't the Chiefs line about as bad off as the Texans? My first impression is taking a Chiefs backup is...???

WaywardTexanFan
03-08-2007, 06:03 PM
Assets
Tall and well built, with a long wingspan. Has sound technique. Maintains balance and gets good position. Gets good leverage. Gets the job done as a run blocker. Has played tackle and guard.

Flaws
An average athlete. Not exceptionally quick out of his stance. Doesn't get great pop or sustain blocks in the running game. Footwork is average. Not light on his feet.


Career potentialQuality backup.

RS & Kubes are going for depth if Spencer is out.