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David's Busted Carr
02-28-2007, 11:43 AM
I was listening to the NFL Network on Sirius on my way to work this morning. This is a national broadcast so they have no biased opinions (which is nice). I just happened to be listening when a guy called in from Houston.

His question was assuming Peterson & Thomas are not available when we pick, most likely our decision will come down to LaRon Landry vs. Amobe Okoye. Both of the radio guys agreed with that. Then the caller asked which of the those guys would be a better pick and both of the radio guys said Okoye WITHOUT A DOUBT. (Keep in mind this was today AFTER Landry's steller combine).

They mentioned something about a "position importance scale" where there is a premium place on certain positions over others. And in this case a DT with Okoye's ability is "much harder to find" than a safety.

I was wondering how much stock teams actually put into that? I'm guessing quite a bit since that is why we chose Mario over Reggie last year. The Texans viewed Mario as a much more "rare and hard to find" talent than Reggie Bush.

So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?

TexansLucky13
02-28-2007, 12:40 PM
I would replace QB and CB on that list. I would consider an elite CB "harder to come by" than a QB.

WillyP
02-28-2007, 12:52 PM
1. Qb
1. Qb
1. Qb

2. Ot
3. De
4. Cb
5. Olb

real
02-28-2007, 12:55 PM
1)qb
2) Cb
3)lt
4)cb
5) De
6) Mlb

steelbtexan
02-28-2007, 01:03 PM
qb
cb
lt
de
rb
lb

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 01:03 PM
1. Qb
2. Ot
3. Dt/de
4. Og/c
5. Cb
6. Rb

real
02-28-2007, 01:08 PM
If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

WillyP
02-28-2007, 01:23 PM
If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

I disagree. You can't coach speed, but you can't coach size, either. Elite DE's (similar to elite left tackles) have that extremely rare combination of size, speed, quickness, and strength. Elite cornerbacks are slightly easier to find, IMO, than freaks of nature like Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 01:24 PM
If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

Like when the Steelers won the Super Bowl with Ike Taylor as a starting CB, and the Colts with Jason David? CB's can be masked by a good front 4 and pressure on the QB, but give a QB time and all CB's will eventually get beat.

Look at the ProBowl corners: Champ Bailey (not in playoffs), Rasheen Mathis (not in playoffs), Ronde Barber (not in playoffs), DeAngelo Hall (not in playoffs). You can also add 2 more higly regarded corners in Pac Man Jones and Nate Clemets to that list, neither of which made the playoffs. Asante Samuel and Chris McAllister are the only two great CB's that even made the playoffs, and neither got to the Super Bowl.

Wharton
02-28-2007, 01:27 PM
Took a little more general approach to it.
1. QB
2. RB
3. CB
4. OL
5. DL
6. LB
7. WR
8. S
9. TE/FB

beerlover
02-28-2007, 01:28 PM
franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern

real
02-28-2007, 01:29 PM
I disagree. You can't coach speed, but you can't coach size, either. Elite DE's (similar to elite left tackles) have that extremely rare combination of size, speed, quickness, and strength. Elite cornerbacks are slightly easier to find, IMO, than freaks of nature like Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.

So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....

Like when the Steelers won the Super Bowl with Ike Taylor as a starting CB, and the Colts with Jason David? CB's can be masked by a good front 4 and pressure on the QB, but give a QB time and all CB's will eventually get beat.

I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 01:30 PM
franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern

If they could pass on Leinart and Young, they can easily pass on Quinn, and I hope they do, because you can improve this team significantly by adding someone like Brown, Okoye or Landry, while Quinn just does not impress me.

Here is to hoping AP falls to 8.

real
02-28-2007, 01:31 PM
Look at the ProBowl corners: Champ Bailey (not in playoffs), Rasheen Mathis (not in playoffs), Ronde Barber (not in playoffs), DeAngelo Hall (not in playoffs). You can also add 2 more higly regarded corners in Pac Man Jones and Nate Clemets to that list, neither of which made the playoffs. Asante Samuel and Chris McAllister are the only two great CB's that even made the playoffs, and neither got to the Super Bowl.


O.k....


Since you want to use that asanine approach, the next time the Titans win a game VY gets ALL the credit....

beerlover
02-28-2007, 01:36 PM
If they could pass on Leinart and Young, they can easily pass on Quinn, and I hope they do, because you can improve this team significantly by adding someone like Brown, Okoye or Landry, while Quinn just does not impress me.

Here is to hoping AP falls to 8.

who knows? I've never been able to pick the Texans 1st rounder anyway but I don't see how they could pass on BQ if he is still available given the QB free agent market, drop off after BQ and the demise of David franchise :stirpot:

WillyP
02-28-2007, 01:39 PM
So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?


Obviously, I'd want them both. However, if I had a top-three pick and they were both available in the same draft, I'd give the edge to Peppers.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 01:42 PM
get enough pressure from your front 4, and your corners' play isn't that important at all.

1: QB
2: NT
3: LT
4: DE
5: MLB

real
02-28-2007, 01:43 PM
Obviously, I'd want them both. However, if I had a top-three pick and they were both available in the same draft, I'd give the edge to Peppers.

I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

real
02-28-2007, 01:44 PM
get enough pressure from your front 4, and your corners' play isn't that important at all.

You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?

WillyP
02-28-2007, 01:47 PM
I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

and yet there's never been a "lockdown corner" drafted #1 overall. that should tell you all you need to know about how NFL teams value that position vs. defensive ends.

WillyP
02-28-2007, 01:48 PM
You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?


the QB can throw away from the cornerback, but an elite pass-rushing DE can shed his blockers and seek out the quarterback.

Errant Hothy
02-28-2007, 01:49 PM
If you have CB anywhere past three your list is wrong....LOL

I think a good FS would help this team more then another good CB. But the problem of the secondary can be addressed two ways 1) imrpoving the overall talent of the secondary with either a CB of a FS thus giving the D-line more time to get to the QB or 2) get a good DT who can rush up the middle thus giving the QB less time to throw and increasing the chances of him either making a mistake or the DBs still being in coverage. Personally my chart follows:

LT
FS
DT
RB
QB

As for the Champ vs. Peppers question give me Peppers all day everyday.

Please_Evolve
02-28-2007, 01:50 PM
I think it depends on your approach to building a team.

1. QB...regaurdless of what happens 98% of the time the QB is the first guy to touch the ball and the decision maker on either side. Wheter you're facing him on Defense or working together on Offense. Then again medicore QB's have won SBs.

2. OT. Whether righty or lefty the bulk of pressure usually is from the outside. Protecting your decision maker is vital.

3. DE. Again most of the pressure comes from outside. Having a guy you have to account for or that can get past the T is key to getting pressure ona QB.

4. S. Might not be a popular pick at this spot but Looking at the past having a guy in the secondary that can drop back in coverage and support the run stop is instrumental in a defense IMO. They help mask CB's that aren't that stellar and can assist with a subpar LB corps. See the effect guys like Ronnie Lott, Brian Dawkins, John Lynch, Ed Reed, Mike Brown, Eugene Robinson, Darren Woodson can impact a game.

Of course there are exceptions that arise with each position that makes a certain player at their respective positions invaluble to a team. I think if you porbably look back at most great teams...these positions are most crucial IMO again.

My hope is if Levi Brown is gone at 8....Landry is our guy. After his combine i'm tempted to say even with Brown there take Landry. The kid is going to be an impact guy that would probably give us another DROY and give us the secondary help we'll need in the coming years in the AFC south.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 01:50 PM
You are comparing the rush of the whole front four to a corner back ?
the whole secondary, really. they just need to be competent with some really good front 4 pressure. see: bears.

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 01:52 PM
So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....



I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....

I can't fault you for having that opinion...They're both phenomenal players...

But think about how many good pass rushing DE's there have been compared to lockdown corners....

Trust me when I say a Lock Down corner is probably one of THE most valued things in the NFL behind QB, and LT....

LOL i seem to be arguing with you alot today but here you are definitely wrong- while a champ bailey etc is very valuable and improves the defence alot..a premier pass rusher is much more valuable..WHY?

because if you have bad cover cb's you can always play a zone defence to help mask their inabilities- what can you do to mask a bad pass-rusher??

real
02-28-2007, 01:52 PM
LMAO...

I'm not going to argue with y'all....

I think it's funny actually....

Just about evrery team has a good or great pass rushing DE or "OLB"....
Where are the lock down corners ?

It' not even close....really it isn't....

real
02-28-2007, 01:54 PM
LOL i seem to be arguing with you alot today but here you are definitely wrong- while a champ bailey etc is very valuable and improves the defence alot..a premier pass rusher is much more valuable..WHY?

because if you have bad cover cb's you can always play a zone defence to help mask their inabilities- what can you do to mask a bad pass-rusher??

I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.

WillyP
02-28-2007, 01:59 PM
I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.

not according to NFL draft history. again, a CB has NEVER been drafted #1 overall. In fact, since 1982, NFL teams have spent 92 first-round picks on defensive ends whereas they've only spent 73 on cornerbacks. That tells you all you need to know about how the positions are ranked by the professionals who draft young prospects for a living.

Meloy
02-28-2007, 01:59 PM
and yet there's never been a "lockdown corner" drafted #1 overall. that should tell you all you need to know about how NFL teams value that position vs. defensive ends.
I tend to lean towards truroyaltytx here. One play gets past a cb and it is 6 points. A de rarely leads to points or even a turn over. Each listed is important but I would go QB, CB, LT, CB and MLB. Quinn is not a franchise Qb imo.

real
02-28-2007, 02:05 PM
not according to NFL draft history. again, a CB has NEVER been drafted #1 overall. In fact, since 1982, NFL teams have spent 92 first-round picks on defensive ends whereas they've only spent 73 on cornerbacks. That tells you all you need to know about how the positions are ranked by the professionals who draft young prospects for a living.

So you base your positional importance on how many have been taken in the draft ?

Question: If that's your method, why didn't you make your whole list like that ? How come you just didn't look at that data and make your list according to how many of what kind of player has been drafted ? Why is it that you are only using this method for the sake of this argument ?

Answer: because people use data and stats to try and make themselves seem right, and sometimes fail to see that they have really just contadicted themselves.

real
02-28-2007, 02:07 PM
Deion said it best...

"give me a great QB and two lock down corners, and we'll run the tables"

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:08 PM
LMAO...

I'm not going to argue with y'all....

I think it's funny actually....

Just about evrery team has a good or great pass rushing DE or "OLB"....
Where are the lock down corners ?

It' not even close....really it isn't....
so because they're more rare, that makes them more important?

real
02-28-2007, 02:10 PM
so because they're more rare, that makes them more important?

Yes. Duh....

If there is a drought, does water become more important ?

If there is a food shortage does a piece of bread become more important ?

Actually it's not the whole reason, but it's part of it...

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:19 PM
a shutdown corner is a filet de bœuf. if you're starving, you don't need the best meal possible to satisfy your hunger.

06 colts
05 steelers
04 patriots
03 patriots
02 bucs
01 patriots
00 ravens
99 rams
98 broncos
97 broncos
etc

there's some damn good corners on those teams, but how many "shutdown" corners have contributed to super bowl winning teams?

all those teams had a front 4 that played dominant. look at how the colts played in the playoffs.

your analogy doesn't work too well.

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 02:20 PM
I don't think this topic is worth arguing anymore...

Elite corner trumps Elite DE all day, every day...period.


hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better

rollinstone18
02-28-2007, 02:29 PM
1. Lt
2. Fs
3. Rb
4. Dt
5. De
6. Qb

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:31 PM
hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better
yeah you'll see that with the vince young-lovers. lots of very vanilla cookiecutter statements.

HJam72
02-28-2007, 02:31 PM
I just want to say:


duh....lol.

real
02-28-2007, 02:32 PM
there's some damn good corners on those teams, but how many "shutdown" corners have contributed to super bowl winning teams?


There haven't been many shutdown corners period, so I'm not sure how many should have contributed to Superbowl teams...as compared to the many DE's...What exactly is your point there ?

But anywho....have fun with this one...

We can just agree to disagree....no harm there

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:34 PM
i'm trying to decipher what makes a shutdown corner so important if they don't really exist and teams seem to do just fine without them, and not many of these shutdown corners have rings on their fingers.

real
02-28-2007, 02:35 PM
Your defense is almost complete...

But you're missing a CB, and DE....

Are you guys telling me that if you were drafting you'd pick the stud DE over the Stud CB assuming both their abilities were equal ?

TexansLucky13
02-28-2007, 02:35 PM
hmm, yet you are nearly the only person on this thread that thinks so. thanks for not responding to my (and others) legitimate arguments why you are wrong. bland, asinine statements are much better

Wrong. I agree completely with him. I was the first person to respond to this thread and I stressed the importance of a CB.

I personally think the draft is slanted. Whatever the reason may be, talented DB's seem to fall in the draft. I find it sickening that pretty boys like Brady Quinn and Matt Leinart are taken while someone who is surely going to help your team (like a talented CB) has no chance. I just don't get it.

real
02-28-2007, 02:36 PM
i'm trying to decipher what makes a shutdown corner so important if they don't really exist and teams seem to do just fine without them, and not many of these shutdown corners have rings on their fingers.

Two that I can think of without even trying, are Deion Sanders and Ty Law and they have multiple superbowls....

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:37 PM
Are you guys telling me that if you were drafting you'd pick the stud DE over the Stud CB assuming both their abilities were equal ?
yup yup. it all starts up front.

but i'm glad you finally used the term "equal" here. because julius peppers doesn't equate to champ bailey. so despite my preference for d-line over CB, i'd still take bailey over peppers.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:38 PM
Two that I can think of without even trying with multiple superbowls are Deion Sanders and Ty Law....
true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

real
02-28-2007, 02:39 PM
true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

Was Asaunte Samuels one of them?

TexansLucky13
02-28-2007, 02:40 PM
true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

He contributed to the win over the Colts though (at least one of them). What did he get, three interceptions and a TD in that Championship game? (correct me if wrong please)

I would choose a stud CB over a stud DE. Stud CB's are much harder to come by.

real
02-28-2007, 02:41 PM
true, but the patriots manage to win a super bowl when law was injured, too. in fact, they had a TON of injuries in the secondary that year. they had a few rookies starting against the colts in the playoffs.

The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:42 PM
Was Asaunte Samuels one of them?
yeah samuel started. hardly a shutdown corner at that point.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:42 PM
He contributed to the win over the Colts though (at least one of them). What did he get, three interceptions and a TD in that Championship game? (correct me if wrong please)
that was in '03, i'm talking about '04.

TexansLucky13
02-28-2007, 02:43 PM
that was in '03, i'm talking about '04.

Still, he sure as hell contributed. Elite CB's come up big when you need them.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:46 PM
The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...
well terrence newman was one of the best corners in the league in '04-'05, and the cowboys' defense wasn't worth much. not many examples come to mind, but then again, there's not many shutdown corners.

for the record, i said NT is the most important non-QB position. i'm not as high on DE's as other people are.

real
02-28-2007, 02:46 PM
yeah samuel started. hardly a shutdown corner at that point.

No he's not. But he's one of the better ones in the leauge.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:46 PM
Still, he sure as hell contributed. Elite CB's come up big when you need them.
he didn't play the latter half of the '04 season.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:47 PM
No he's not. But he's one of the better ones in the leauge.
yeah he is, but he was just a good corner then. he was the brian kelly of that team.

real
02-28-2007, 02:48 PM
well terrence newman was one of the best corners in the league in '04-'05, and the cowboys' defense wasn't worth much. not many examples come to mind, but then again, there's not many shutdown corners.

for the record, i said NT is the most important non-QB position. i'm not as high on DE's as other people are.


NT ???




Im done.

real
02-28-2007, 02:49 PM
yeah he is, but he was just a good corner then. he was the brian kelly of that team.


That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:52 PM
NT ???




Im done.
ironically you have no argument but you'll keep talking anyway.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 02:53 PM
That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...
and having two players that can put consistent pressure on the QB can do wonders, too.

i'm sure asante samuel and william gay had everything to do with that '04 super bowl championship.

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:08 PM
The problem is that you're judging it from a perspective of Superbowls...That takes a team effort so I don't even know why were using that as a gauge...unless you all want to admit right now that VY really did win those games by himself...


But here's a gauge for you....Name me one BAD defense with an elite corner...

Better yet...Name me a Mediocre defense that has a good secondary...


I can name tons a bad Defenses with some of the best DE's...

killing your point #1:thats the point- a bad pass rush makes the secondary look bad if the qb has time to throw

Wrong. I agree completely with him. I was the first person to respond to this thread and I stressed the importance of a CB.


note that i said 'nearly the only 1':ok:

That almost kinda proves my point.

A corner doesn't even have to be "lock down"....Just having two GOOD corners will do worlds for your defense...

killing your point #2: thank you- if you only have 2 decent corners and mix up man and zone coverages but also WITH A GOOD PASS RUSH (simeon rice, warren sapp etc) you'll have a good defence- which is why a stud DE is more important:marionaner:

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:11 PM
an interesting thought. look at the vikings' cornerbacks. top money guys. however, because they had absolutely no pass-rush this season, they had the 31st ranked pass defense in the NFL.

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 03:33 PM
So you'd rather have Julius Peppers than Champ Bailey ?

Yeah, you're right...top notch Corners are all over the place, and good DE's aren't....

please come back to reality.....



I never said they couldn't be masked...But if you have a lock down corner you don't need as much of a pass rush...

A lock down corner can almost completely eliminate a reciever from the offense....A good Pass rush takes into account the whole D-line which isn't a fair comparison...unless you want to compare a good pass rush to a good secondary....

I'll take the secondary....

Are you serious? I think you there is little doubt that the best passing offense over the last few years have been the Colts. What type of defenses have beaten the Colts? The Steelers and the Patriots both won with no name players in the secondary with the exception of a star safty (the Pats beat the Colts on Manning's 48 TD year with rookies and back ups as 3/4ths of their secodary was hurt). The Steelers got a bunch of pressure on Manning and the entire offense was shut down. There is absolutley no way you can say that a great pass rush is less valuable then a secondary.

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Deion said it best...

"give me a great QB and two lock down corners, and we'll run the tables"

He also said: "you show me a pass rush who cant get to the QB and Ill show you a secondary who cant cover".

Game, set and match.

real
02-28-2007, 03:36 PM
Are you serious? I think you there is little doubt that the best passing offense over the last few years have been the Colts. What type of defenses have beaten the Colts? The Steelers and the Patriots both won with no name players in the secondary with the exception of a star safty (the Pats beat the Colts on Manning's 48 TD year with rookies and back ups as 3/4ths of their secodary was hurt). The Steelers got a bunch of pressure on Manning and the entire offense was shut down. There is absolutley no way you can say that a great pass rush is less valuable then a secondary.

i'm pretty much done arguing about this...

It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:36 PM
compare that to the broncos, who have the best corner in the league. manning had the best games of his playoff career against them.

real
02-28-2007, 03:37 PM
He also said: "you show me a pass rush who cant get to the QB and Ill show you a secondary who cant cover".

Game, set and match.


That kinda proves that the secondary is more important....

:drunk:

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:39 PM
That kinda proves that the secondary is more important....

:drunk:
no, pretty much just states it's harder to get a good secondary than a good pass rush.

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:39 PM
i'm pretty much done arguing about this...

It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
i've never seen a fact so riddle with holes.

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 03:40 PM
killing your point #1:thats the point- a bad pass rush makes the secondary look bad if the qb has time to throw



note that i said 'nearly the only 1':ok:



killing your point #2: thank you- if you only have 2 decent corners and mix up man and zone coverages but also WITH A GOOD PASS RUSH (simeon rice, warren sapp etc) you'll have a good defence- which is why a stud DE is more important:marionaner:The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:40 PM
i'm pretty much done arguing about this...

It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

:redface: :tinfoil: :gun: :rolleyes:

texans83
02-28-2007, 03:41 PM
We need both parties....... So why not get BOTH

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:42 PM
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?
just compare the front 4 and secondaries of any cover 2 defense. it's clear where the talent is, and how success is reached.

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:42 PM
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?


You stupid??he said he's done arguing this and no amount of good, useful examples will change that:winky: :doot:

real
02-28-2007, 03:43 PM
The Tampa example works perfectly here. Ronde Barber was in the Pro Bowl this year, but Simeon Rice was hurt and ineffective. How did Tampa do this year?

You guys are a trip.

Watch this.


The Texans were 2-14 last year with DW at running back, and we were 6-10 this year...

We were a better team without him...

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:44 PM
You guys are a trip.

Watch this.


The Texans were 2-14 last year with DW at running back, and we were 6-10 this year...

We were a better team without him...

ahh another classic symptom of a lost argument: changing the subject

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 03:46 PM
That kinda proves that the secondary is more important....

:drunk:

Wow, thats completly wrong. That clearly shows that the secondry is dependent on the pass rush, as the pass rush goes so does the secondary, meaning that the pass rush is the defining factor in pass defense.

Look at it from another angle. AJ can dominate most any corner in the league, but we cant get him the ball because of the other team's pass rush. When he played against Rasheen Mathis and the Jags, a Pro Bowl corner, he got close to 100 yards both games, Carr was rarely sacked. When we played against Cleaveland, who has a terrible secondary, he got next to no production because Carr coudnt get the ball out of his hand. Its pretty obvious. Yes, the Champ Baily's of this world are harder to come by, but that dosnt mean they are more valuable to a defense. Case in point, Denver aginst the Colts. Best corener back in the league, but no sacks, which resulted in 30 somthing points because they could pick on everyone else in the secondary.

real
02-28-2007, 03:47 PM
Great Secondary Always = good Dline


period.

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 03:47 PM
You stupid??he said he's done arguing this and no amount of good, useful examples will change that:winky: :doot:

thats great, why is he still posting on the subject?
also, way to resort to name calling...really shows off your own intelligence.

real
02-28-2007, 03:48 PM
Wow, thats completly wrong. That clearly shows that the secondry is dependent on the pass rush, as the pass rush goes so does the secondary, meaning that the pass rush is the defining factor in pass defense.

Look at it from another angle. AJ can dominate most any corner in the league, but we cant get him the ball because of the other team's pass rush. When he played against Rasheen Mathis and the Jags, a Pro Bowl corner, he got close to 100 yards both games. When we played against Cleaveland, who has a terrible secondary, he got next to no production because Carr coudnt get the ball out of his hand. Its pretty obvious. Yes, the Champ Baily's of this world are harder to come by, but that dosnt mean they are more valuable to a defense. Case in point, Denver aginst the Colts. Best corener back in the league, but no sacks, which resulted in 30 somthing points because they could pick on everyone else in the secondary.

That doesn't prove anything...

All that proves is that AJ got less yards against one defense than another...

Why he got less yards can be attributed to HUNDREDS of factors...

kastofsna
02-28-2007, 03:49 PM
Great Secondary Always = good Dline


period.
when you make a statement like that and it's completely false, you can't use "period."

1 + 1 = 5

period.

nunusguy
02-28-2007, 03:51 PM
The short answer is its very difficult to generalize about these things, because there is no standard way all teams value each individual position.
In a way its kinda like applying the Draft "value chart" for different Draft
picks within each round for the sake of trades. One value chart doesn't fit
all Drafts because all years are unique in their quality and quanity of talent.

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:56 PM
thats great, why is he still posting on the subject?
also, way to resort to name calling...really shows off your own intelligence.

ok i think you misinterpreted me...ive been on the same side as you- i was just kiddin with that post (good examples etc):winky:

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 03:59 PM
Great Secondary Always = good Dline


period.

unbelievable....

how did you manage to come up with that- look at the colts this year, steelers last yr, pats, etc etc etc- so many examples. you have none.

real
02-28-2007, 04:03 PM
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...

Maddict5
02-28-2007, 04:15 PM
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...


HMM yet again i notice no examples...

you must have dosed off during football 101 because EVERY1 AND I MEAN EVERY1 KNOWS: GREAT DEFENCES ARE BUILT FROM THE LINES OUT or heres another 1: WIN IN THE TRENCHES, WIN THE WAR..or just use common sense/logic/ whatever man just wake up- and thats it im done arguing this

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 04:41 PM
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...

In an ideal world, you might take the corner over the DE, but its just not realistic. There are so many examples of teams winning the Super Bowl with average corners and a great passrush, while there are basically no examples of a defense being lead by the secondary. What your saying might be true in that its much harder to find a Champ Bailey, but we are asking for a historical example of this talent translating into wins.

By the way, Champ has not won a playoff game.

WillyP
02-28-2007, 04:58 PM
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...

if that were true, why hasn't any team EVER drafted a "shutdown corner" with the first overall pick? are they so mythically rare that they just don't exist, or is it more likely that teams generally put more of an emphasis on the importance of defensive ends?

threetoedpete
02-28-2007, 05:17 PM
franchise QB's trump everything (reason why Texans cannot pass on Brady Quinn if he is still on the board @ #8) but after that its OT, DE & CB.

Tackles

2007 #2 Joe Thomas Detorit Wisconsin?

2006 #4 D'Brickashaw Ferguson Jets Virginia

2005 #13 Jammal Brown Saints Oklahoma

2004 #2 Robert Gallery Raiders Iowa

2003 #8 Jordan Gross Panthers Utah

2002 #4 Mike Williams Bills Texas

2001 #2 Leonard Davis Cardinals Texas

2000 #3 Chris Samuels Redskins Alabama

1999 #14 John Tait Chiefs Brigham Young

1998 #7 Kyle Turley Saints San Diego State

1997 #1 Orlando Pace Rams Ohio State

1996 #4 Jonathan Ogden Ravens UCLA

1995 #2 Tony Boselli Jaguars USC

1994 #14 Bernard Williams Eagles Georgia

1993 #8 Willie Roaf Saints Louisiana Tech

1992 #8 Bob Whitfield Falcons Stanford

1991 #7 Charles McRae Buccaneers Tennessee

1990 #9 Richmond Webb Dolphins Texas A&M

1989 #2 Tony Mandarich Packers Michigan State

1988 #4 Paul Gruber Buccaneers Wisconsin

1987 #15 John Clay Raiders Missouri

1986 #6 Jim Dombrowski Saints Virginia

1985 #2 Bill Fralic Falcons Pittsburgh

1984 #5 Mark Adickes Chiefs Baylor

1984 #2 Dean Steinkuhler Oilers Nebraska

1983 #4 Chris Hinton Broncos Northwestern

nice post beer lover. the question with this ball club has always been which year ?

1. OT
2. CB
3. Speed
4. QB
5. DE
6. Dt
7. Punter
8. Kicker

run-david-run
02-28-2007, 08:32 PM
nice post beer lover. the question with this ball club has always been which year ?

1. OT
2. CB
3. Speed
4. QB
5. DE
6. Dt
7. Punter
8. Kicker

So how exactly is a CB more valuable then a QB? The best QB (Peyton) and the best CB (Champ) played against each other this season. Peyton 3 for 300 something yards and 4 TD's, none of which were against Champ. QB is a foundation of your entire team, while CB is a complementary position. And punter/kicker..really? Makes me wonder why I bother responding...:ok:

Insideop
02-28-2007, 08:54 PM
This is pretty much football 101. Great corners are a rare commodity and just about any team would rather grab a stud corner than DE...

Ok...I'm really done now...


Sorry xtru, you lost all credibility after the 2nd time you were done a few pages ago! lol: Just joking. :shades:

YoungTexanFan
02-28-2007, 08:57 PM
1. Elite QB
2. Elite LT
3. Elite CB
4. Elite FS


After that my list drops off.

Navy_Chris
02-28-2007, 08:58 PM
I was listening to the NFL Network on Sirius on my way to work this morning. This is a national broadcast so they have no biased opinions (which is nice). I just happened to be listening when a guy called in from Houston.

His question was assuming Peterson & Thomas are not available when we pick, most likely our decision will come down to LaRon Landry vs. Amobe Okoye. Both of the radio guys agreed with that. Then the caller asked which of the those guys would be a better pick and both of the radio guys said Okoye WITHOUT A DOUBT. (Keep in mind this was today AFTER Landry's steller combine).

They mentioned something about a "position importance scale" where there is a premium place on certain positions over others. And in this case a DT with Okoye's ability is "much harder to find" than a safety.

I was wondering how much stock teams actually put into that? I'm guessing quite a bit since that is why we chose Mario over Reggie last year. The Texans viewed Mario as a much more "rare and hard to find" talent than Reggie Bush.

So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?

1) QB - we have garbage now
2) OT - LT???
3) OG - Pitts and Weary are OK, DEPTH??
4) DT - We have guys off the street playing DT
5) WR - Moulds is gone, #2?? Meachem??
6) FS - C.C. is a joke. also, DEPTH???
7) DE - Is Babin or Kalu the answer? don't think so.
8) SS - Glenn Earl is also a joke. DEPTH????

trutxn
02-28-2007, 09:27 PM
So how would you rate the positions in order of importance vs. the ability to find premium players at the respective positions?

1) OT
2) QB
3) DE
4) CB
5) OG
6) DT

??? What do you guys think?

Another opinion, not necessarily based on importance, but the hardest position to find super stars.

1) QB
2) DE
3) OT
4) DB (Cover man-Safety or DB)
5) DT
6) C

QBs are always in the spotlight, they always get a lot of recognition even when they are just average. But true super star QBs are hard to find, the turn over rate is very high, and there are more QB busts than at any other position.