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Texans Pride
02-26-2007, 09:12 AM
By Adam Schefter
NFL Analyst




Adam Schefter's "Around the League" reports and commentaries can be seen regularly on NFL Total Access.

INDIANAPOLIS (Feb. 25, 2007)

A NEW CARR

After watching the college quarterbacks this weekend and further assessing the potential free-agent class, the Houston Texans came away even more convinced that David Carr will be their quarterback this season.

Up until now, the Texans have said they would listen to offers for Carr, but never have committed to trading him. And upon further review, Texans officials now believe that Carr is their best alternative and they won't be making a trade for Denver's Jake Plummer or any other quarterback.

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/10021837


If a mod reads this, and can place a c in Schefter in the title, it would be appriciated.

noxiousdog
02-26-2007, 09:15 AM
How reliable is Schefter? My memory says 'good' but I don't know for sure.

NFLforher
02-26-2007, 09:21 AM
ABC is reporting it too.

Lucky
02-26-2007, 09:24 AM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

Maybe Kubiak & Smith didn't realize the Broncos would play hardball in obtaining Plummer? Maybe they are content with waiting Shanahan out, with Jake getting an outright release? Plummer already knows the offense, there's no real need to get him in early. I just can't believe that bringing Carr back was the plan entering the offseason.

beerlover
02-26-2007, 09:31 AM
I've always thought David Car is worth more than a 4th rd. pick. if Drew Henson was worth a 3rd, David is worth at least a 2nd. the Texans are either trying to drive his value up or now realize to replace him with a comparable talent it would take at least a late 1st early 2nd.

I still beleive the Texans are trying to find a way to draft Kevin Kolb.

Sportsfan
02-26-2007, 09:35 AM
Wow. Even though this isn't official its sounds like its most likely true. I was sure he'd be traded but deep down i think he's McNair's boy and won't be going anywhere.

nunusguy
02-26-2007, 09:39 AM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

I would agree.
If the Texans thought the retain DC/pass on VY decisions were controversial
last year after the disappointing season Carr had coupled with Youngs ROY season were controversial, this year could be even more of a PR firestorm if Carr were to start. And they've got to sell some tickets before the season begins, and this year there is the real possibility of some local TV blackouts.

Mr teX
02-26-2007, 09:40 AM
I know that makes some of you staunch DC non-likers (PC) :cry2: :hairpull: , let me be the 1st to institute a suicide watch for a couple of posters here, you know who you are.

Texans Horror
02-26-2007, 09:50 AM
Could be based on Brady Quinn's performance at the combine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/02/25/pauline.combine/index.html). SI reports it was subpar and that the QB lost a lot of ground there:


scouts were astonished Brady Quinn decided the leave the combine without throwing in the RCA Dome. This comes on the heals of the phantom injury that forced Quinn to withdraw from the Senior Bowl three days before the event began. Quinn's draft stock has taken a major hit at the combine. There are questions about his decision making on and off the field as well as his leadership skills.

real
02-26-2007, 09:53 AM
Could be based on Brady Quinn's performance at the combine (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/02/25/pauline.combine/index.html). SI reports it was subpar and that the QB lost a lot of ground there:

I think that's bull....


Neither VY nor Leinart worked out at the combine...Atleast Brady Quinn got in there and bench pressed...He actually did pretty well...

I watched a good part of the combine coverage, and nothing I saw indicated Quinn had lost any ground....

QB75
02-26-2007, 09:56 AM
By Adam Schefter
NFL Analyst




Adam Schefter's "Around the League" reports and commentaries can be seen regularly on NFL Total Access.

INDIANAPOLIS (Feb. 25, 2007)

A NEW CARR

After watching the college quarterbacks this weekend and further assessing the potential free-agent class, the Houston Texans came away even more convinced that David Carr will be their quarterback this season.

Up until now, the Texans have said they would listen to offers for Carr, but never have committed to trading him. And upon further review, Texans officials now believe that Carr is their best alternative and they won't be making a trade for Denver's Jake Plummer or any other quarterback.

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/10021837


If a mod reads this, and can place a c in Schefter in the title, it would be appriciated.

Well, this is certainly good news. In addition to this story, there are other very credible NFL writers citing good sources that Jake Plummer will likely be traded, rather than cut, from Denver, and the Texans are bowing out of the potential bidding for Plummer. This increases the liklihood that David is going to camp as the Texans starting QB in 2007. :highfive:

Lucky
02-26-2007, 09:59 AM
In addition to this story, there are other very credible NFL writers citing good sources that Jake Plummer will likely be traded, rather than cut, from Denver, and the Texans are bowing out of the potential bidding for Plummer.
Do you have some links to these articles? I'm not questioning their existence, I (and others) would just like to read them.

trutxn
02-26-2007, 09:59 AM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

Maybe Kubiak & Smith didn't realize the Broncos would play hardball in obtaining Plummer? Maybe they are content with waiting Shanahan out, with Jake getting an outright release? Plummer already knows the offense, there's no real need to get him in early. I just can't believe that bringing Carr back was the plan entering the offseason.

No, its because they realize there is no better option. Now lets get off the Carr subject once and for all.

Lucky
02-26-2007, 10:01 AM
Now lets get off the Carr subject once and for all.
Now, that made me laugh!

houstonhurricane
02-26-2007, 10:05 AM
Thanks for the update. I have no doubt that Carr is going to be the man next year - it is certainly going to be interesting...

nunusguy
02-26-2007, 10:12 AM
If the Texans keep Carr, they would have to start him as they can't possibly
pay him his contract if he's only a backup, and no way Carr will restructure at
this point given all he's gone thru and the limitations to his future here.
But I dunno, because of the way they handled last year when they passed on
Vince Young, and Reggie Bush, who would have been
a PR coup and certainly made a contribution to our struggling offense, for
Mario, maybe they are really this clueless and insensitive about public relations with the fan base ?
I dunno, but after the Texans go back and forth with this Carr issue and then ultimately keep him for the 2007 season - WOW ! I'd have to say that McNair and his FO are just tonedeaf.

MightyTExan
02-26-2007, 10:16 AM
Front Office: "I think we neeed a new QB."
Carr" (waves hand) "These aren't the droids you're looking for"

trutxn
02-26-2007, 10:19 AM
Now, that made me laugh!

I laughed when I typed it...At least for this offseason

Blu
02-26-2007, 10:24 AM
No biggie... this just means Carr better perform come camp.

I expect the Texans to draft Kolb and put the pressure on David.

Lucky
02-26-2007, 10:27 AM
I expect the Texans to draft Kolb and put the pressure on David.
Look, I like Kevin Kolb as much as anyone. But, he's not going to press for a starting job in the NFL as a rookie.

BTW, Kolb has an ESPN chat (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=14777) scheduled for 2 p.m. CST.

Texans Horror
02-26-2007, 10:29 AM
I think that's bull....


Neither VY nor Leinart worked out at the combine...Atleast Brady Quinn got in there and bench pressed...He actually did pretty well...

I watched a good part of the combine coverage, and nothing I saw indicated Quinn had lost any ground....

Could be bull. I'm just connecting dots.

I don't think VY or Leinart had anything to prove last year. After the loss to LSU, lots of questions surfaced about Quinn.

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 10:30 AM
There's two ways to look at it:

1) This is all smoke screen and mirrors by the Texans, part of the mental games that teams play with each other. Obviously acting like Carr is our starter and would take a good deal to trade him makes his value rise.

2) There is nothing on the market that is a significant improvement over Carr, and nobody is offering us squat for a trade. There is no point in downgrading our QB position when we're taking a cap hit regardless if he's here or not.

I think it's more about the second option, and teams just aren't offering us much right now. Carr will probably be in TC to compete for the starting job, and hopefully with a consistent RB, much improved defense, and Pro Bowl offensive line. We'll need these improvements for Carr to succeed, even according to his most diehard supporters.

QB75
02-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Do you have some links to these articles? I'm not questioning their existence, I (and others) would just like to read them.

This what John McClain is reporting. Not sure if he's updated his blog, but this was his story on Radio 610 this morning. McLain says the Vikings have draft picks to spare, are close to being able to win, and would be one of few teams willing to give Mike Shanahan a draft pick for Plummer rather than wait for him to be cut. Under that scenario, McLain says that the Texans would back away from pursuing Plummer because they are not willing to give up a pick.

HuttoKarl
02-26-2007, 10:32 AM
Could be bull. I'm just connecting dots.

I don't think VY or Leinart had anything to prove last year. After the loss to LSU, lots of questions surfaced about Quinn.


Questions like "Why can't the Irish play defense?" or "Why were the Irish overrated all season long?"???

Quinn's taking a lot of heat for his TEAM being unable to win the big games.

Mr. White
02-26-2007, 10:33 AM
Not so fast. (http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/bengals/2007/02/26/ddn022607bigconweb.html)

2-26-07

As far as the draft, RB Adrian Peterson appears to be the favorite for the team's pick at No. 3 should they stay put. That being said, rumors are running rampant that the Houston Texans are interested in moving up the draft board for a shot at Peterson and could propose a trade to the Browns that would send starting QB David Carr and draft picks to Cleveland for the No. 3 position.


One thing's for sure on this one. When one rumor turns up, then there's another one that says the exact opposite somewhere else.

Porky
02-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Welcome to another losing season. As long as Carr is here, this is about as close as we will get to winning. :wheel:

BigWig
02-26-2007, 10:58 AM
The sky is falling, the world is coming to an end, were dooooooooomed!:drunk:

Roughnecks
02-26-2007, 11:00 AM
Lets hope it lights a fire under Carr to take more on his shoulders knowing that he is this close to being sent packing. Maybe this is the kick in the rear he needed. You can have your opinion about him and go ahead and pack the season in already but I like to see what happens. Their just not anybody out there that is a upgrade, Plummer please Quinn yea ok , how about Sage well no thank you. I'm not a Carr lover but giving my choices I will take Carr.

TEXANS84
02-26-2007, 11:00 AM
I don't know.....I just see smokescreen all over this.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 11:02 AM
There's two ways to look at it:

1) This is all smoke screen and mirrors by the Texans, part of the mental games that teams play with each other. Obviously acting like Carr is our starter and would take a good deal to trade him makes his value rise.


I doubt this is part of the equation. When a team says something like what Schefter reported, that means dude is now off the market, so don't even call.



This what John McClain is reporting. Not sure if he's updated his blog, but this was his story on Radio 610 this morning. McLain says the Vikings have draft picks to spare, are close to being able to win, and would be one of few teams willing to give Mike Shanahan a draft pick for Plummer rather than wait for him to be cut. Under that scenario, McLain says that the Texans would back away from pursuing Plummer because they are not willing to give up a pick.

This sounds believable........ not only are the Vikings willing, but the Raiders can offer Jerry Porter or Moss, or Justin Fargas to get Plummer, the Texans have been priced out of the Plummer Market.

Wolfiegrrl
02-26-2007, 11:08 AM
The biggest thing we all have to remember is that this is our first year without Casserly to f*&^ up our draft. Let us all be patient and see what transpires as the offseason goes along. If nothing else, David has seen the writting on the wall. "Put up or get the hell out." I'm not saying that it's completely fair given what the guy has been through. However, the Front Office is saying under no certain terms, "this is your absolute last chance David." If he really wants to stay here and be a winner, then he'll get his act together. If the FO thinks this will never happen here, I see us trading up to get Peterson but I don't know how far we'll move up. #3 last year got a heck of a lot of money. Can we afford that under the cap?

Lucky
02-26-2007, 11:11 AM
...McLain says the Vikings have draft picks to spare, are close to being able to win, and would be one of few teams willing to give Mike Shanahan a draft pick for Plummer rather than wait for him to be cut.
Plummer would have to agree to play for the Vikings. Else, he could "retire" and the deal is off. Plummer is in the driver's seat here, not the Broncos.

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 11:11 AM
I doubt this is part of the equation. When a team says something like what Schefter reported, that means dude is now off the market, so don't even call.

Could be true, but the way it was reported leaves me wondering:

And upon further review, Texans officials now believe that Carr is their best alternative...

Who are these "Texans officials"? I have not read a story with actual names being dropped, and I still maintain that nothing is solid until Rick Smith, Gary Kubiak, or Bob McNair are quoted.

If we seem desperate to move Carr, then teams can wait and try to make a bargain deal. But if we seem like we are going to keep him as the starter, then his value increases.

Adam Schefter is not the be all/end all of information about the Texans. He's just another gossip reporter spouting what he hears.

StarStruck
02-26-2007, 11:15 AM
Hopefully the upcoming year will be a better one, regardless of who will be the starting QB. If the season is similar to last year, I can bring my work with me and get a lot done.

Reddevil63
02-26-2007, 11:16 AM
I don't know.....I just see smokescreen all over this.

I usually tend to think the same thing when its somebody from the organization saying it, but Schefter doesnt have anything riding on what the Texans do so why would he report something he knows is false? Obviously he was told something by somebody he trusts that tells him Carr is staying, remember, this is the guy who said Art Shell was going to be fired a month before the season was over. I tend to trust him alot more than our own sports writers who have their own agenda's. With that said, it looks like Carr is coming back, but I dont expect the starting job will be handed to him. I expect Sage is going to have a shot this preseason and we are going to draft a QB to develop *cough* Kolb * cough *. And as has already been said, maybe this offseason will be a wake up call for David and he will come out with a fire to get better and show us all that he can be what we thought he was when he was drafted.

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 11:22 AM
The media is nothing but a tool to these teams, especially this time of year. Do a little digging in the forum and Schefter was reporting that we are moving Carr because his "Texans officials" told him that Kubiak wants nothing to do with Carr anymore and has lost all confidence in him as a QB. (We never found out who those "Texans officials" were then, as well.)

While I still think Carr will be a Texan in 2007, I do not believe that Schefter has the inside track to the Smith/Kubiak/McNair decision making process. He throws stuff at the wall and gets credit for whatever sticks.

Arky
02-26-2007, 11:28 AM
McClain's latest audio on the Carr situation (takes a while to get to the Carr stuff):

http://www.chron.com/content/chronicle/sports/interactive/justicemcclain/justmc.html

Not quite as adamant about Carr being traded as he used to be.....

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 11:37 AM
McLain says the Vikings have draft picks to spare, are close to being able to win, and would be one of few teams willing to give Mike Shanahan a draft pick for Plummer rather than wait for him to be cut. .

After second thought, this would also mean the Vikings would chose Plummer over Carr, if Carr was in fact on the block.

real
02-26-2007, 11:41 AM
After second thought, this would also mean the Vikings would chose Plummer over Carr, if Carr was in fact on the block.

Exactly.

jerek
02-26-2007, 11:41 AM
LOL at all the disbelief and denial.

Wharton
02-26-2007, 11:44 AM
I can already hear the rain of Boos coming down when they announce Carr for the first time. This is going to get ugly, real ugly!

Spled
02-26-2007, 11:48 AM
Kolb's stock seems to be rising, according to Fox Sports -

The name to watch among quarterbacks: Kevin Kolb

Last year, Football Outsiders writer David Lewin discovered that two collegiate statistics are strong indicators for a successful NFL quarterback: completion percentage and total games started. And when you look at these stats for the quarterbacks at the NFL combine, one name jumps out at you: Kevin Kolb of Houston. Kolb completed 62 percent of passes in 50 starts. (By comparison, Brady Quinn completed 58 percent of passes in 46 starts.)

Those same stats, however, are also good indicators of a system quarterback who won't succeed in the NFL. Figuring out whether Kolb is one or the other is what the scouts are for. Kolb knew that he went into the draft process with the need to prove that he isn't a system quarterback and so far, he's succeeding. A couple of scouts and an NFL quarterback coach told me Kolb is the best quarterback in the draft other than the big two of JaMarcus Russell and Quinn. There's a general feeling that no quarterback helped himself more at the Senior Bowl.

Despite Kolb's improvement in the eyes of many scouts, however, he's still expected to go no higher than the third round.

Meloy
02-26-2007, 11:49 AM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

Maybe Kubiak & Smith didn't realize the Broncos would play hardball in obtaining Plummer? Maybe they are content with waiting Shanahan out, with Jake getting an outright release? Plummer already knows the offense, there's no real need to get him in early. I just can't believe that bringing Carr back was the plan entering the offseason. Not awkward at all. Kubes, Smith and McNair are the "triangle offense". We thought Kubes/Smith were great additions & I for one am going with their assessments. I have thought it unlike Kubes to give Carr only one year under his system. Now:

1. Peterson 2. Kolb in 2-3 years could be perfect replacement for DC 3. Sabby Piscitelli S/S 6'3" 225 ranked # 96 of NFLs top 100 prospects. I really like what I've read about this guy. 4. Tony Ugoh (makes Carr smile) 5. Louis Leonard DT 6'5" 320 Fresno state.

A corner in f/a and yes, we can afford Nate Clemments! With an off season as stated above, fans will be ok. Carr behind Ugoh, Pitts, Flannagan/McKinney, Spencer, Winston & Salaam will be more confident. AP along with a more confident Dayne will improve offense. Carr will not miraculously turn the team to a SB contender but I do expect to see much progress this season.

DRAMA
02-26-2007, 11:57 AM
Front Office: "I think we neeed a new QB."
Carr" (waves hand) "These aren't the droids you're looking for"

Kenobi, you and your Jedi mind tricks! I wonder how many people do not even get that reference? We're getting older....older...olde...r......:doot:

Also....does anyone think seriously that Carr will be back as a backup? Why in the world? Why not just cut him? Who pays a backup that much to sit and well...back up?

If he's back in 2007 - he starts...period. If he's not starting, he's NOT here. That's MHO.

aj.
02-26-2007, 12:08 PM
One way to keep Carr's value up is for Rick and Gary to do exactly what they are doing. It's possible that they are being totally honest and forthcoming with the media, and may decide to keep Carr. But it's also quite possible that Carr is just as available as he was a month ago (if he ever was).

A couple of things I've learned not to do at the end of February is put too much stock in combine numbers or rumor mills.

macaronitoni
02-26-2007, 12:12 PM
No biggie... this just means Carr better perform come camp.

I expect the Texans to draft Kolb and put the pressure on David.

If their plan is to draft a QB for the future, Quinn is better than Kolb and will be available with the number 8 pick.

Meloy
02-26-2007, 12:12 PM
Not awkward at all. Kubes, Smith and McNair are the "triangle offense". We thought Kubes/Smith were great additions & I for one am going with their assessments. I have thought it unlike Kubes to give Carr only one year under his system. Now:

1. Peterson 2. Kolb in 2-3 years could be perfect replacement for DC 3. Sabby Piscitelli S/S 6'3" 225 ranked # 96 of NFLs top 100 prospects. I really like what I've read about this guy. 4. Tony Ugoh (makes Carr smile) 5. Louis Leonard DT 6'5" 320 Fresno state.

A corner in f/a and yes, we can afford Nate Clemments! With an off season as stated above, fans will be ok. Carr behind Ugoh, Pitts, Flannagan/McKinney, Spencer, Winston & Salaam will be more confident. AP along with a more confident Dayne will improve offense. Carr will not miraculously turn the team to a SB contender but I do expect to see much progress this season.I incorrectly switched my 3 & 4th picks. Ugoh should be avail @ 73rd pick in 3rd round and Piscitlelli at 103rd pick in 4th. At least I'm hoping Ugoh is there.

2BCF
02-26-2007, 12:22 PM
I can already hear the rain of Boos coming down when they announce Carr for the first time. This is going to get ugly, real ugly!

It would be. But this is all just posturing.
The FO would look like even bigger bafoons if they kept Davey for a sixth losing season.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 12:51 PM
Kenobi, you and your Jedi mind tricks! I wonder how many people do not even get that reference? We're getting older....older...olde...r......:doot:

Also....does anyone think seriously that Carr will be back as a backup? Why in the world? Why not just cut him? Who pays a backup that much to sit and well...back up?

If he's back in 2007 - he starts...period. If he's not starting, he's NOT here. That's MHO.

I may be wrong, but I do believe veteran back-ups get paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $5million a year. Usually that is comparable to the $7.5 million Carr will make in '07(salary, plus prorated bonus)... But if we forget about the bonus, and just look at paying Carr $5mill, it's not too far off. We've been overpaying him as a starting QB for the last 5 years, I don't see why we can't overpay him as a back-up.

Besides, until we draft someone of his "pedigree" Carr will be looked at as our "future" as long as he is on the team. Starting someone in front of him doesn't make him a back-up anymore than it makes him our QB being groomed.

I think it will be helpful for him to sit on the sidelines, and experience the game from there. For him to see how another QB handles the situations that he'll have to handle in the future.

It should help, not having all the pressure that goes with the being starting QB, and if he gets into a game, he should be able to just let it all hang out because we are either already losing, or because he's just a back-up.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 12:52 PM
It would be. But this is all just posturing.
The FO would look like even bigger bafoons if they kept Davey for a sixth losing season.

So far, I haven't seen that as a deterrent to any decision that needs to be made yet.

Hulk75
02-26-2007, 01:03 PM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

Maybe Kubiak & Smith didn't realize the Broncos would play hardball in obtaining Plummer? Maybe they are content with waiting Shanahan out, with Jake getting an outright release? Plummer already knows the offense, there's no real need to get him in early. I just can't believe that bringing Carr back was the plan entering the offseason.

Why? Thety could sure up this line and RB deal reall fast this draft and FA..

Ibar_Harry
02-26-2007, 01:22 PM
So far, I haven't seen that as a deterrent to any decision that needs to be made yet.

Kind of interesting news to say the least. We don't know a whole lot about what the Texans are thinking, but you would have to assume that they are finally realizing that the OFFENSIVE LINE has to be considered a weakness. Why do I say that, well I think most would say its obvious, but really age is another big factor. As bad as the line seems to be it is also an aged line.

The QB position with Carr and Sage really has to be the least of their worries when you thing about it. The one thing Carr has been is durable. How many teams in the NFL can look at their QB and say I'm not really too worried about injury. I don't know how many more hits Carr can take, but he has taken a lot and gotten up off of the field.

Our running game and our passing game was suspect most of the season. Many in the NFL point to the O-line and what it is doing. Nobody seems to know what kind of line scheme we are using. Some say is some kine of conventional scheme others say it some form of zone. That seems to be a function of the RB's we have as well as the QB. Kubiak wants to run the ball, but he really doesn't seem to have the kinds of backs he likes.

I personally think last year was a nightmare even though we improved. I believe they really thought DD was coming back and that's what they planned for. When they realized he wasn't it was too late in the game and they had to go forward with what they had and that simply wasn't possible. Strangely the changing from Smith to Casserly is part of the problem, because there simply wasn't a person in place to deal with the problem until Smith came on board. I think FA and the draft will be when we know what direction the TEXANS are going to take. It could be good or it could be bad. This draft is more critical than last year.

Honoring Earl 34
02-26-2007, 01:28 PM
After second thought, this would also mean the Vikings would chose Plummer over Carr, if Carr was in fact on the block.

TK you just hit the bingo ... go get your money .

dbspi
02-26-2007, 01:29 PM
There's two ways to look at it:

1) This is all smoke screen and mirrors by the Texans, part of the mental games that teams play with each other. Obviously acting like Carr is our starter and would take a good deal to trade him makes his value rise.

2) There is nothing on the market that is a significant improvement over Carr, and nobody is offering us squat for a trade. There is no point in downgrading our QB position when we're taking a cap hit regardless if he's here or not.

I think it's more about the second option, and teams just aren't offering us much right now. Carr will probably be in TC to compete for the starting job, and hopefully with a consistent RB, much improved defense, and Pro Bowl offensive line. We'll need these improvements for Carr to succeed, even according to his most diehard supporters.

Couldn't agree more with your assessment. Texans are trying to clean up their CAP mess from previous administration. Now they really need AP more then ever if Carr comes back next year to carry the loads.

TEXANS84
02-26-2007, 01:33 PM
Obviously he was told something by somebody he trusts that tells him Carr is staying, remember, this is the guy who said Art Shell was going to be fired a month before the season was over.

Anybody could have seen that coming.

real
02-26-2007, 01:34 PM
Well people, we did all we could to get rid of the loser. Prepare for ANOTHER Carr led losing season.

The Texans are headed down the wrong path if they keep Carr...

They will lose fan support by the boatload....

DRAMA
02-26-2007, 01:36 PM
Besides, until we draft someone of his "pedigree" Carr will be looked at as our "future" as long as he is on the team. Starting someone in front of him doesn't make him a back-up anymore than it makes him our QB being groomed.

I think it will be helpful for him to sit on the sidelines, and experience the game from there. For him to see how another QB handles the situations that he'll have to handle in the future.

If Carr did sit for a year, it's hard to see a guy who's almost 30 being a QB of the future...but I do agree with all your points. That's why I say...

it would just be better for Carr to start over somewhere else. I think he, and we as a city, now associate ourselves with losing more so than with optimism. I think, unfair or not, David has become the symbol of our team and our mentality. It's not that David CAN'T get it done, it's that neither he nor we BELIEVE that it can get done. I 'feel' like we have a better chance with Sage than we do with David. It gives me hope more so than seeing David Carr version 6.0.

We've 'dated' for so long even though we fell out love years ago. It's only fair sometimes to just breakup and start fresh. I like David - I really do. I think David would be an EXCELLENT backup in this league for another team. However, sometimes it's just best to inhale and rip the bandaid off.

I would absolutely pull for David to do well wherever he goes - I really would. Let's just start fresh, I say.

Exithios
02-26-2007, 01:39 PM
We've 'dated' for so long even though we fell out love years ago. It's only fair sometimes to just breakup and start fresh. I like David - I really do. I think David would be an EXCELLENT backup in this league for another team. However, sometimes it's just best to inhale and rip the bandaid off.

I hate that you feel this way, have you tried couples counseling? :aikido:

dbspi
02-26-2007, 01:39 PM
The biggest thing we all have to remember is that this is our first year without Casserly to f*&^ up our draft. Let us all be patient and see what transpires as the offseason goes along. If nothing else, David has seen the writting on the wall. "Put up or get the hell out." I'm not saying that it's completely fair given what the guy has been through. However, the Front Office is saying under no certain terms, "this is your absolute last chance David." If he really wants to stay here and be a winner, then he'll get his act together. If the FO thinks this will never happen here, I see us trading up to get Peterson but I don't know how far we'll move up. #3 last year got a heck of a lot of money. Can we afford that under the cap?

Yes, Texans have tried everything to see Carr succeed that includes bringing in Kubiak to teach him the ropes and so far it has not worked out like they had first envisioned so yes this Carr last chance to prove his merit.

Prior to this year, Texans never complained publicly about their player and for the first time this year management came out with their displeasure of Carr performance. Now its time for Carr to either show up and play like he is suppose to or get shipped out next year. Either way I think this will last year for Carr unless he improves dramatically knowing that he will either get cut or traded next off season.

real
02-26-2007, 01:41 PM
Another Chance for Carr ?!




Who'd-a-thunk-it ?

dbspi
02-26-2007, 01:51 PM
If their plan is to draft a QB for the future, Quinn is better than Kolb and will be available with the number 8 pick.

We already have one Quinn on our team named Carr so why do we need another Quinn on the team. The more you watch Brady Quinn, the more he reminds us of David Carr.

Far better option is to draft Kolb or Stanton in lower rounds then drafting Quinn in first. Use # to draft AP, Okoye, Branch, Anderson or LT.

Honoring Earl 34
02-26-2007, 01:54 PM
Couldn't agree more with your assessment. Texans are trying to clean up their CAP mess from previous administration. Now they really need AP more then ever if Carr comes back next year to carry the loads.

What if this is to get Crr to re-do his contract .

texanfan2002114
02-26-2007, 01:57 PM
The Texans are headed down the wrong path if they keep Carr...

They will lose fan support by the boatload....

After speaking with a Houston Texans rep this morning, they said there season ticket renewal is already up from this time last year and their waiting list is growing by the day. As one person leaves there is another to take their place.

Nawzer
02-26-2007, 01:57 PM
Adam Schefter is one of the few reporters out there who doesn't throw misleading info out there. I remember him being one of the first people to say that Mario Williams was going to be our guy. Anyway, if this is indeed true then it certainly creates an interesting situation. I think the Texans will now definitely draft a qb relatively high since they don't like the free agent qb bunch out there. I'm not too happy or sad about this decision because it's too early to tell, but I did want to see the Texans add genuine competition at that spot and I don't know if a second or a third round rookie qb will do that. Anyway, it's early still so we don't know what's going to happen. We'll just to wait and see.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-26-2007, 02:06 PM
I expect the Texans to draft Kolb and put the pressure on David.
I hope they draft Peterson or Lynch (preferrably Lynch) and take the pressure OFF David in the regular season.
:texan:

real
02-26-2007, 02:08 PM
After speaking with a Houston Texans rep this morning, they said there season ticket renewal is already up from this time last year and their waiting list is growing by the day. As one person leaves there is another to take their place.




From everything I've heard the Texans have never had a problem selling out....

It's getting those people to actually show up to the games where the problem lies...

GP
02-26-2007, 02:12 PM
If Carr stays, then I think we can expect a few things to happen:

1. Levi Brown at No. 8...unless a swap in draft position would allow us to still acquire Levi or grab a Branch, Okoye, Nelson, or Landry. Lots of defensive players all bunched up: Landry, Nelson, Okoye, Branch, Adams, Willis, Carriker, etc., that makes it difficult to truly know which of those would be a fit at No. 8 or even a few spots lower for that matter.

2. The temptation to move up for AP, which we will not do.Face it, this team has never made the bold moves in the draft before. Unless moving back up to get Babin is considered a bold move.

There's nobody (in my opinion) that teams lower than us would want to trade up for (to get someone at our No. 8).

Raiders - Jemarcus Russell
Lions - Joe Thomas
Browns - Adrian Peterson
Bucs - Calvin Johnson

After that, the talent is all equal until you get to the middle of the first round, IMO.

There's four guys (listed above) who I consider no-miss star quality players that are going to go 1-2-3-4 one way or another. The Raiders kicked Aaron Brooks to the curb. The Lions are going after Kevin Curtis in addition to having Roy Williams and Mike Furrey locked up, so they do not need Calvin Johnson. The Browns have not had a good running back since......oh, that's right I think his name was Jim Brown--Probably is time for them to get serious about that position. And the Bucs need a big, fast guy at WR to help Clayton and Cadillac with the pressure they faced all last season.

Levi Brown might not last until No. 8, now that I think about it some more.

Should be interesting.

Would Kubiak be bold enough to move up to No. 3 to get AP?

Would Kubiak be prudent enough to trade DOWN and get an extra pick?

Will he stay at No. 8 and just take BPA no matter what?

Should be interesting to see how it all works out.

GP
02-26-2007, 02:29 PM
From a Kirwan article on nfl.com...

"1. A team in the top 14 spots in the draft could trade down close to the 15th spot, pick up an extra pick or two and then trade for Schaub and get the other players they need with the extra picks. Keep in mind, Schaub would have to negotiate a long-term deal with a new club. I'm not sure the Falcons will ever trade Schaub, but if a team calls with a pick close to No. 15, they might sit up and listen. I wonder if teams like Minnesota, Houston or Miami would consider this idea?"


link: http://www.nfl.com/combine/story/10023456


Sounds like a good deal to me. Heck, how many of us would trade to pick No. 10 and do this deal?

Makes me wonder if we (A) Passed on the Snake and removed ourselves from the bidding, (B)"We're Happy With Carr", and (C) Oh, by the way: We're working out a deal for Schaub that nets us a QB and an extra pick.

We opted out of the Plummer bidding very quickly, IMO.

Is there something else "in the mix?"

Hmmmmm...........

Mr teX
02-26-2007, 02:35 PM
The Texans are headed down the wrong path if they keep Carr...

They will lose fan support by the boatload....

That's not uncommon for houston sports fans. i mean look at what the rockets are doing & nobody's even talking about them & they're the only team to win a championship here besides the Comets & Aeros.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 02:48 PM
Kind of interesting news to say the least.

I personally think last year was a nightmare even though we improved. I believe they really thought DD was coming back and that's what they planned for. When they realized he wasn't it was too late in the game and they had to go forward with what they had and that simply wasn't possible.

So you believe a different RB would have had better success than the backs we've had behind the same line...... but no QB could have fared better, even though most, including most on this site believe DDW to only be slightly above avg, if any at all......

interesting indeed.

Texan_Bill
02-26-2007, 02:58 PM
Personally, I think DDW, overachieved. We got more out of him than expected. I thank him for that, but in no way should he have been thought of to be the long-term answer at RB. He was drafted to be a 3rd down type of back and return kicks anything else he gave us (yes I used past tense) was gravy....

TEXANRED
02-26-2007, 02:59 PM
Well people, we did all we could to get rid of the loser. Prepare for ANOTHER Carr led losing season.

We can't seem to get rid of you either. Where is that negative rep button when you need one?

jerek
02-26-2007, 03:01 PM
One way to keep Carr's value up is for Rick and Gary to do exactly what they are doing. It's possible that they are being totally honest and forthcoming with the media, and may decide to keep Carr. But it's also quite possible that Carr is just as available as he was a month ago (if he ever was).

A couple of things I've learned not to do at the end of February is put too much stock in combine numbers or rumor mills.

Agreed generally about not making too much out of news this soon, but this is also where the FO would feel that, in order to generate support for Carr and get him focused on playing here next year, they would come out publicly with their decision now.

Once again I laugh at all of the "we won't have any more fans" laments that are already starting up. Once again I reiterate that winning produces fans like humping rabbits and that losing is what kills them off. If our team plays well our stadium will be full and if they do not it will not. I didn't see the Bears' attendance drop off despite Rex Grossman sucking far far worse. For all of the belly aching about passing on Reggie Bush last year no one in Houston has breathed a peep about him in months. Few if any "fans" outside of Austin alum in the month of February were saying squat about how urgently we needed to draft Vince Young until his team started winning as proof of how great he was.

Truth remains now just as it did several months ago that there just aren't any viable decisions to be made this off season that involve dealing Carr. No sure-thing FAs or draft picks that fit long term given their price tag. It's laughable that people think Carr "costs too much for the investment" and yet want to cut/trade him, eat his bonus money, and overpay some other 32+ year old vet in the FA for 1-2 years until we put him out to pasture too and are back to square one. We simply do not now possess the team talent to go foraging for modest upgrades at QB at high cost.

We'll enter camp allowing Sage or some second-day draft pick to fight for the job but we're not going to spend big money when we have too many other bigger needs elsewhere. Too much money spent for too little return and I'd guess that the coaches still think he gets one more year to demonstrate sufficient improvement while we spend 07 looking to improve other positions. Petey Faggins single-handedly lost the Buffalo game and gave up killer big play after killer big play all year long--I have seen zero "cut Petey" threads. Our interior DL was made out of play-doh, our OL still haphazard and only getting older, our safeties utterly useless in even zone deep coverage, our linebackers outside of DeMeco listless, our number one pick putting together a good year before being slowed by injury ... but of course David Carr is the face of every failure in the quarterbacks-are-the-only-position-on-a-losing-team world of the message board fans.

TEXANRED
02-26-2007, 03:01 PM
That's not uncommon for houston sports fans. i mean look at what the rockets are doing & nobody's even talking about them & they're the only team to win a championship here besides the Comets & Aeros.

The ranking of sport teams that are important to the city of Houston are as follows:

Football

Baseball

Everything else

Lucky
02-26-2007, 03:18 PM
How awkward would it be for the Texans to bring Carr back, now? It just seems that letting David go would be in the best interests of both parties.

Why?...

Well, I think once a player sees he's on the market, it's best to go ahead and trade him. Especially the QB. He has to be the leader of the offense, and being placed on the trading block undermines that role. You want a guy out there who doesn't have to worry about making a mistake else he gets pulled. I think it's time for Kubiak to have a QB he trusts and Carr to go to a team that trusts him.

Meloy
02-26-2007, 03:21 PM
Agreed generally about not making too much out of news this soon, but this is also where the FO would feel that, in order to generate support for Carr and get him focused on playing here next year, they would come out publicly with their decision now.

Once again I laugh at all of the "we won't have any more fans" laments that are already starting up. Once again I reiterate that winning produces fans like humping rabbits and that losing is what kills them off. If our team plays well our stadium will be full and if they do not it will not. I didn't see the Bears' attendance drop off despite Rex Grossman sucking far far worse. For all of the belly aching about passing on Reggie Bush last year no one in Houston has breathed a peep about him in months. Few if any "fans" outside of Austin alum in the month of February were saying squat about how urgently we needed to draft Vince Young until his team started winning as proof of how great he was.

Truth remains now just as it did several months ago that there just aren't any viable decisions to be made this off season that involve dealing Carr. No sure-thing FAs or draft picks that fit long term given their price tag. It's laughable that people think Carr "costs too much for the investment" and yet want to cut/trade him, eat his bonus money, and overpay some other 32+ year old vet in the FA for 1-2 years until we put him out to pasture too and are back to square one. We simply do not now possess the team talent to go foraging for modest upgrades at QB at high cost.

We'll enter camp allowing Sage or some second-day draft pick to fight for the job but we're not going to spend big money when we have too many other bigger needs elsewhere. Too much money spent for too little return and I'd guess that the coaches still think he gets one more year to demonstrate sufficient improvement while we spend 07 looking to improve other positions. Petey Faggins single-handedly lost the Buffalo game and gave up killer big play after killer big play all year long--I have seen zero "cut Petey" threads. Our interior DL was made out of play-doh, our OL still haphazard and only getting older, our safeties utterly useless in even zone deep coverage, our linebackers outside of DeMeco listless, our number one pick putting together a good year before being slowed by injury ... but of course David Carr is the face of every failure in the quarterbacks-are-the-only-position-on-a-losing-team world of the message board fans.Very well said!

Meloy
02-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Well, I think once a player sees he's on the market, it's best to go ahead and trade him. Especially the QB. He has to be the leader of the offense, and being placed on the trading block undermines that role. You want a guy out there who doesn't have to worry about making a mistake else he gets pulled. I think it's time for Kubiak to have a QB he trusts and Carr to go to a team that trusts him.Uh, what about the Astros and Roy Oswalt? That sort of worked out did it not? DC is not the only NFL player who was on trading block one time or another.

jerek
02-26-2007, 03:23 PM
Well, I think once a player sees he's on the market, it's best to go ahead and trade him. Especially the QB. He has to be the leader of the offense, and being placed on the trading block undermines that role. You want a guy out there who doesn't have to worry about making a mistake else he gets pulled. I think it's time for Kubiak to have a QB he trusts and Carr to go to a team that trusts him.

Sure, but was he ever truly on the market? The media can speculate all they want and report something as a fact. While we're on the subject, wasn't Reggie Bush supposed to be signed by us last year? Unless I'm missing something in the way of fact reporting on this saga?

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 03:35 PM
After speaking with a Houston Texans rep this morning, they said there season ticket renewal is already up from this time last year and their waiting list is growing by the day. As one person leaves there is another to take their place.

I am beginning to think that this is a cut and paste response every season, part of the standard operating procedure for the organization. Never let anyone see your weaknesses kind of deal.

But I guess only time will tell if 2007 home games are shown in Houston. :secret:

From everything I've heard the Texans have never had a problem selling out....

It's getting those people to actually show up to the games where the problem lies...

yeah, there were only about 10,000-20,000 by the end of some of our games, and not much more at the beginning of some of them, too.

I still can't figure out the folks that actually pay for these games and then blow off even bothering to go. It's kinda'....goofy, IMHO.

Petey Faggins single-handedly lost the Buffalo game and gave up killer big play after killer big play all year long--I have seen zero "cut Petey" threads.

Well, we were still in the game with 9 seconds left on the game clock. Richard Smith admitted to blowing the call, pulling a safety out for a four man front. It was a stupid decision on his part, and he has publicly accepted the responsibility and blame for blowing the call. I think Smith's admission let Petey off the hook (which was also two more blown calls at the beginning of the game).

real
02-26-2007, 03:44 PM
Once again I laugh at all of the "we won't have any more fans" laments that are already starting up. Once again I reiterate that winning produces fans like humping rabbits and that losing is what kills them off.

You make it sound like it isn't possible for fans to stop supporting a team...Sure winning brings fans, but first you have to win....


We don't have very many fans to begin with...

Once people find out that David is staying, it'll turn even more fans off from the Texans.....

If they keep David and basically say damned be the fans and everyone else, and still lose, they risk becoming the Atlanta Hawks of football.


Sure if we win it'll bring out more fans, but IMHO they're going to have to win pretty big for that to happen....8-8 or even 9-7 isn't going to cut it for the casual fan....

jerek
02-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Well, we were still in the game with 9 seconds left on the game clock. Richard Smith admitted to blowing the call, pulling a safety out for a four man front. It was a stupid decision on his part, and he has publicly accepted the responsibility and blame for blowing the call. I think Smith's admission let Petey off the hook (which was also two more blown calls at the beginning of the game).

Richard Smith is a topic for another thread but I've seen Faggins get scorched too many times to blame Smith for his poor play in general. He's slow of foot and slow of mind when it comes to anticipating routes or balls. I thought D-Rob looked half-ass a lot this year but it seemed that opposing quarterbacks and coordiators deliberately and repeatedly targeted Faggins. He should never see the field as anything more than a dime and I would've personally tried to work with Buchanon but we'll never quite know that story.

El Tejano
02-26-2007, 03:50 PM
So where is Hulk75?

jerek
02-26-2007, 04:03 PM
You make it sound like it isn't possible for fans to stop supporting a team...Sure winning brings fans, but first you have to win....

We don't have very many fans to begin with...

Once people find out that David is staying, it'll turn even more fans off from the Texans.....

If they keep David and basically say damned be the fans and everyone else, and still lose, they risk becoming the Atlanta Hawks of football.

Sure if we win it'll bring out more fans, but IMHO they're going to have to win pretty big for that to happen....8-8 or even 9-7 isn't going to cut it for the casual fan....

You basically answered your own question while affirming my idea. It isn't the job of any FO to pander to fan demand for personnel decisions. It is the job of a FO who wants a revitalized fanbase to construct a winning team. The salary cap is also a reality of business in the NFL and I just don't expect or ask for the Texans to hamstring themselves financially this season to shut up a malcontent minority of the fanbase for a few months when I'd rather them invest in what they believe will most efficiently generate wins, which makes fans of all types feel better. Hell, I might not even mind hamstringing ourselves financially if there was an obviously dramatically better prospect at QB available, but there's not even that.

Healthy PR in general is of course important but you are overstating its relation to basic personnel decisions. Sure if Bob McNair got on TV tonight and flipped us all the bird and said to hell with what any Houston Texan fan thinks, I don't need any of you, then yes, that would certainly sour fan reception. However next time he is on TV it will be to endorse his second-year coach and GM and his belief in their decisions. The Atlanta Hawks are the "Atlanta Hawks" because they suck year after year--unless you are suggesting for some reason they suck because they do not have fan support. The NBA in particular is a poor example with which to make your case as only the best teams consistently sell out and some of the very best players routinely play for half-attendance because their teams and thus their W-L records are lousy.

Lucky
02-26-2007, 04:13 PM
Sure, but was he ever truly on the market?
When a GM admits to the local rag that he's talking turkey with others teams about the starting QB...yeah, he's on the market. If the Texans could pry Plummer out of Denver, I think Carr would be well out the door.

It's laughable to me for people to suggest that Smith & Kubiak can generate trade value for Carr. Either he has value, or he doesn't. And there's nothing they can do to change that. Five years ago, Carr may not have been a Ferrari, but he was a least a Porsche. Now, he's a Porsche that's been rolled over the pavement 249 times. There may be teams that want to check under the hood and see if he's a fixer-upper. But, he's not going to get bluebook value in return.

What boggles my mind is why would Carr want to comeback to the Texans. The GM and the coach have been coy about his status. They supposedly allowed him to play with the aftereffects of a concussion over the last 5 games. There still isn't a solid offensive line, yet. Or enough weapons to attack a defense. And, he's taken the brunt of the fans' criticism for the Texans dismal record over the past 5 years. If it were myself, I'd want out.

real
02-26-2007, 04:15 PM
The salary cap is also a reality of business in the NFL and I just don't expect or ask for the Texans to hamstring themselves financially this season to shut up a malcontent minority of the fanbase for a few months when I'd rather them invest in what they believe will most efficiently generate wins, which makes fans of all types feel better.

I totally understand this POV from a F.O. perspective...


But as a fan the salary implications, and who the coaching staff thinks is a good enough player don't mean much anymore...

We've had 5 losing seasons....enough is enough...

It's obvious they don't think Carr is that great a player or they wouldn't have publicly announced he was on the trading block so therefore the theory about them thinking he's the player to "most efficiently generate wins" is out the window IMO. So therefore the only reason they'd keep Carr is because (A) no one wants him at the asking price, or (B) Salary concerns....

I don't believe choice (A), and choice (B) upsets me as a fan.


I have a question for you though.

If they have already publicly announced that they weren't happy with a players production on the field, let it be known he was on the trading block and less than a month and a half later announce they are keeping him, what do you think that means ?

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 04:19 PM
Richard Smith is a topic for another thread but I've seen Faggins get scorched too many times to blame Smith for his poor play in general. He's slow of foot and slow of mind when it comes to anticipating routes or balls. I thought D-Rob looked half-ass a lot this year but it seemed that opposing quarterbacks and coordiators deliberately and repeatedly targeted Faggins. He should never see the field as anything more than a dime and I would've personally tried to work with Buchanon but we'll never quite know that story.

I do not disagree with you, but my post was written for your specific example. On that particular play, for that particular game, Smith accepted the blame.

Besides, if the defensive coordinator is going to leave a suspect DB by his lonesome on back to back TD bombs, then I'd say that coaching should have made better playcalling decisions based upon known evaluation of said player.

NATHANHALE
02-26-2007, 04:24 PM
Agreed generally about not making too much out of news this soon, but this is also where the FO would feel that, in order to generate support for Carr and get him focused on playing here next year, they would come out publicly with their decision now.

Once again I laugh at all of the "we won't have any more fans" laments that are already starting up. Once again I reiterate that winning produces fans like humping rabbits and that losing is what kills them off. If our team plays well our stadium will be full and if they do not it will not. I didn't see the Bears' attendance drop off despite Rex Grossman sucking far far worse. For all of the belly aching about passing on Reggie Bush last year no one in Houston has breathed a peep about him in months. Few if any "fans" outside of Austin alum in the month of February were saying squat about how urgently we needed to draft Vince Young until his team started winning as proof of how great he was.

Truth remains now just as it did several months ago that there just aren't any viable decisions to be made this off season that involve dealing Carr. No sure-thing FAs or draft picks that fit long term given their price tag. It's laughable that people think Carr "costs too much for the investment" and yet want to cut/trade him, eat his bonus money, and overpay some other 32+ year old vet in the FA for 1-2 years until we put him out to pasture too and are back to square one. We simply do not now possess the team talent to go foraging for modest upgrades at QB at high cost.

We'll enter camp allowing Sage or some second-day draft pick to fight for the job but we're not going to spend big money when we have too many other bigger needs elsewhere. Too much money spent for too little return and I'd guess that the coaches still think he gets one more year to demonstrate sufficient improvement while we spend 07 looking to improve other positions. Petey Faggins single-handedly lost the Buffalo game and gave up killer big play after killer big play all year long--I have seen zero "cut Petey" threads. Our interior DL was made out of play-doh, our OL still haphazard and only getting older, our safeties utterly useless in even zone deep coverage, our linebackers outside of DeMeco listless, our number one pick putting together a good year before being slowed by injury ... but of course David Carr is the face of every failure in the quarterbacks-are-the-only-position-on-a-losing-team world of the message board fans.

Good post, Jerek. I have 1 concern about the competition 'scenario' amongst the qbs, including Carr. As others posters have noted, Carr is a very good 'practice' qb when he has no pressure or decision making.-yet, even in most of the pre-season games he doesn't show much. Bottom line,I'm wondering how the 'competition' will be set up and evaluated.

You monitored training camp last year and passed on some great info, so what do you think-- is training camp going to be a fair scenario for picking our starting QB. We all know the actual pre-season games don't offer much-if they did, Porter would have been the starter going into '06 and Carr would have been cut...thanks.

JMO, but if Carr is here in "07, it won't take much by the coaching staff to put him in a position to beat others out and start. Back-up? That makes no sense--what would David offer (especially to another team) as a BU that he doesn't as a starter to be effective?

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 04:29 PM
You basically answered your own question while affirming my idea. It isn't the job of any FO to pander to fan demand for personnel decisions. It is the job of a FO who wants a revitalized fanbase to construct a winning team. The salary cap is also a reality of business in the NFL and I just don't expect or ask for the Texans to hamstring themselves financially this season to shut up a malcontent minority of the fanbase for a few months when I'd rather them invest in what they believe will most efficiently generate wins, which makes fans of all types feel better. Hell, I might not even mind hamstringing ourselves financially if there was an obviously dramatically better prospect at QB available, but there's not even that.

Healthy PR in general is of course important but you are overstating its relation to basic personnel decisions. Sure if Bob McNair got on TV tonight and flipped us all the bird and said to hell with what any Houston Texan fan thinks, I don't need any of you, then yes, that would certainly sour fan reception. However next time he is on TV it will be to endorse his second-year coach and GM and his belief in their decisions. The Atlanta Hawks are the "Atlanta Hawks" because they suck year after year--unless you are suggesting for some reason they suck because they do not have fan support. The NBA in particular is a poor example with which to make your case as only the best teams consistently sell out and some of the very best players routinely play for half-attendance because their teams and thus their W-L records are lousy.

There is only one reason I can see for The Atlanta Falcons drafting Michael Vick, and then continue to trot him out there as their starter..... & that's to appease fans. Most people believe he is not the best QB on that team, and does not give his team the best chance of winning.

I understand what you are saying, but that club that made that decision is closer to winning than we are. Of course being in the NFC is a big part of that.

I cannot see how the Houston Texans can continue to tell us that David Carr is the best thing we can find as a QB solution. He doesn't look ready.... I just finished watching the first Jacksonville game, and while I agree it was a good game for Carr, you can easily see he was still having trouble with his footwork/rhythm/timing as he dropped back... We're talking about week 7 here. Then the next week against the Titans, the first time he took a snap from the gun, you can see how uncomfortable he is, and how off his timing is, and through every game of the year, it takes him at least three Qtrs before he gets his rhythm, before he can "settle down"", and that's only if we have a lead.

IF David's going to be on this team..... & if David is going to start... then that's fine, but don't say that we are trying to win, and that winning will put butts in the seats.

If David is our starting QB(& I know you didn't say that David will start), but if David is our starting QB, then winning is not the Texans highest priority.

real
02-26-2007, 04:34 PM
If David is our starting QB(& I know you didn't say that David will start), but if David is our starting QB, then winning is not the Texans highest priority.

Bingo.

real
02-26-2007, 04:43 PM
The Atlanta Hawks are the "Atlanta Hawks" because they suck year after year--unless you are suggesting for some reason they suck because they do not have fan support.

I was only using the Atlanta Hawks as an example of perpetual losers.

However, I do think that a lack of fans, and lack of winning atmosphere breeds contempt for losing.

jerek
02-26-2007, 04:44 PM
When a GM admits to the local rag that he's talking turkey with others teams about the starting QB...yeah, he's on the market. If the Texans could pry Plummer out of Denver, I think Carr would be well out the door.

It's laughable to me for people to suggest that Smith & Kubiak can generate trade value for Carr. Either he has value, or he doesn't. And there's nothing they can do to change that. Five years ago, Carr may not have been a Ferrari, but he was a least a Porsche. Now, he's a Porsche that's been rolled over the pavement 249 times. There may be teams that want to check under the hood and see if he's a fixer-upper. But, he's not going to get bluebook value in return.

What boggles my mind is why would Carr want to comeback to the Texans. The GM and the coach have been coy about his status. They supposedly allowed him to play with the aftereffects of a concussion over the last 5 games. There still isn't a solid offensive line, yet. Or enough weapons to attack a defense. And, he's taken the brunt of the fans' criticism for the Texans dismal record over the past 5 years. If it were myself, I'd want out.

I would think a lot about wanting out myself.

I read that article and it sounded like the Texans were entertaining offers for Carr, not actively shopping him around. I'd listen to offers for Andre Johnson but that doesn't mean I deliberately want or plan on him being gone one way or the other.

QB75
02-26-2007, 04:46 PM
If David is our starting QB(& I know you didn't say that David will start), but if David is our starting QB, then winning is not the Texans highest priority.

Not necessarily. It simply may mean that the fans and the Texans organization have different opinions on the path to building a winning team.

real
02-26-2007, 04:48 PM
Not necessarily. It simply may mean that the fans and the Texans organization have different opinions on the path to building a winning team.

Well they sure are using the path less traveled.

El Amigo Invisible
02-26-2007, 04:57 PM
The Texans are headed down the wrong path if they keep Carr...

They will lose fan support by the boatload....

what ever HOMETOWN fan support they had flew out the window after the first pick in the draft.

sixfour
02-26-2007, 05:00 PM
The Texans are headed down the wrong path if they keep Carr...

They will lose fan support by the boatload....


Will I then get great seats at bargin prices ?

dirty steve
02-26-2007, 05:01 PM
Well they sure are using the path less traveled.

i'd say the plan that alot dont agree with. i am behind them either way. i dont jump ship when they dont do what everybody in the media, armchair Qb's, etc, suggest.

kiwitexansfan
02-26-2007, 05:03 PM
I for one agree with the front office's assesment.

There is noone out there that we can be sure of being an immediate upgrade to Carr.

Texans34Life
02-26-2007, 05:12 PM
Wasn't Schefter the same guy saying that we were going to pick Bush instead of Mario and ended up looking like a jackass?

Texan_Bill
02-26-2007, 05:19 PM
Wasn't Schefter the same guy saying that we were going to pick Bush instead of Mario and ended up looking like a jackass?

I beleive someone in this thread earlier said that they had remembered Schefter was one of the very few guys that called the Texans picking Mario Williams.

*EDIT*
It was Nawzer on Page 4 - #70.... Nawzer, do you have a link, or is it something you just remembered him saying?? Thanks.

dirty steve
02-26-2007, 05:27 PM
Wasn't Schefter the same guy saying that we were going to pick Bush instead of Mario and ended up looking like a jackass?

in all fairness, wasnt EVERYBODY saying we were going to take Bush? if Schefter looks like an *****, then most of the sports media does also.

TEXANS84
02-26-2007, 05:38 PM
Plummer contemplating retirement?

(CBS4) DENVER There's been talk that the Broncos might trade quarterback Jake Plummer, but what if Plummer doesn't want to play football anymore?

CBS4 Sports has learned that Plummer is "seriously considering retirement."

This season Plummer was replaced by rookie Jay Cutler, and since then there's been speculation about whether Plummer would return as a backup or get traded to a team like the Houston Texans.

Cutler told CBS4 on Thursday he and Plummer have talked about retirement.

"I think anybody close to Jake, who knows him on a personal level, if he came in one day and said 'I'm outta here' ... it wouldn't be a big surprise," Cutler told CBS4's Vic Lombardi. "But he's competitor. I know he loves the game and loves Sundays, so if he came back I wouldn't be surprised that way either."

Plummer doesn't crave the limelight and he doesn't spend much money.

"So he really could just walk away and go live in a mountain hut somewhere," CBS4's Reggie Rivers joked Thursday night.

http://cbs4denver.com/sports/local_story_053192200.html

dirty steve
02-26-2007, 05:39 PM
Plummer contemplating retirement?



http://cbs4denver.com/sports/local_story_053192200.html
i heard about this on friday when it broke. i think it is just postering on plummer's part to force the broncos hand.

Texans34Life
02-26-2007, 05:42 PM
I hope this is Carr's last chance as a Texan to prove to us he can throw more than 5 yards per down to our Pro Bowl receivers.

I'm getting sick of his dumpoffs.

Hulk75
02-26-2007, 05:46 PM
I hope this is Carr's last chance as a Texan to prove to us he can throw more than 5 yards per down to our Pro Bowl receivers.

I'm getting sick of his dumpoffs.

He can throw the ball 70 yards, dont you think he would throw it if it called for it? Do you think he likes playing it safe, dont you think he would love to sit back and chuck it, YES! I think it takes a 7 step drop to get a deep ball off, when was the last time you guys saw one?

Texan_Bill
02-26-2007, 05:53 PM
I have never seen Carr throw the ball 70 yards in the air, but I have seen him throw it 55 yards on a rope in someone's bread basket.... (which subsequently was dropped)

NATHANHALE
02-26-2007, 06:00 PM
He can throw the ball 70 yards, dont you think he would throw it if it called for it? Do you think he likes playing it safe, dont you think he would love to sit back and chuck it, YES! I think it takes a 7 step drop to get a deep ball off, when was the last time you guys saw one?

How many steps does he have to take to throw it 10yds? He doesn't do that much either?

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 06:20 PM
I'd listen to offers for Andre Johnson but that doesn't mean I deliberately want or plan on him being gone one way or the other.

The difference, though, is that you would not make it public that you were listening to offers for AJ.

bluestars87
02-26-2007, 06:27 PM
Jake Plummer wasn't going to help you guys anyways. At least I don't think so. He'd probably do worse.

Dime
02-26-2007, 06:33 PM
I got a good one for you..

IF Plummer retires... Does Carr become on the trading block again.... Because, he would be worth more then.... Ahhhh something to think about. Grin

TwinSisters
02-26-2007, 06:40 PM
I believe someone in this thread earlier said that they had remembered Schefter was one of the very few guys that called the Texans picking Mario Williams.

*EDIT*
It was Nawzer on Page 4 - #70.... Nawzer, do you have a link, or is it something you just remembered him saying?? Thanks.


Easterbrook said nobody had the scoop but McClain ( and that was just the night or day before )

aj.
02-26-2007, 06:56 PM
Easterbrook said nobody had the scoop but McClain ( and that was just the night or day before )

It was about 5:45 pm the evening before the draft. My wife and I were driving northbound on the West Loop at Bellaire (heading out to see the early Frank Caliendo show at the Improv) when McClain broke in to Rich and Marc's show and spewed the news. I almost drove into a bunch of orange barrels.

Arky
02-26-2007, 07:07 PM
The difference, though, is that you would not make it public that you were listening to offers for AJ.

Yes, but what if the local media said (started the rumor) that you were looking to trade AJ? And this rumor goes national? As a good GM, you would have to to, at least, answer the phone and listen to what interest there was, no?

I don't believe the Texan FO has ever said they are shopping Carr or looking for a replacement - that's been all media .... :hmmm:

nunusguy
02-26-2007, 07:09 PM
in all fairness, wasnt EVERYBODY saying we were going to take Bush? if Schefter looks like an *****, then most of the sports media does also.
Absolutely. Nobody had a clue until the eve of the Draft.
You can now go on the internet and find historical mocks for the 2006 Draft
with the Texas taking Mario, but I assure you they were all amended after
the fact, no matter what date they list on their mocks.

uhcougar08
02-26-2007, 07:32 PM
I hope this is Carr's last chance as a Texan to prove to us he can throw more than 5 yards per down to our Pro Bowl receivers.

I'm getting sick of his dumpoffs.

If that is the problem with him, which most of us agree, then why are we not focussing on the O-line, and the time they actually give him, instead of bashing his brain for haveing little to no time to throw the ball?

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 07:40 PM
I would think a lot about wanting out myself.

I read that article and it sounded like the Texans were entertaining offers for Carr, not actively shopping him around. I'd listen to offers for Andre Johnson but that doesn't mean I deliberately want or plan on him being gone one way or the other.

The difference, is that they aren't entertaining offers for Andre Johnson, at least we don't know they are as they never admitted to it.

Not necessarily. It simply may mean that the fans and the Texans organization have different opinions on the path to building a winning team.

In my post, I explained how our 5 year starters was having difficulty dropping back, & was working on his footwork in week 7. I understand all QBs work on all aspects of their game at all times of the year... But not on the rudimentary aspects of the position during a game.

Then how he took his first snap from the gun, in week 8, and it didn't look good. I didn't mention that his coach didn't want to see that in a game for another 5 weeks.

There are so many things we can criticize David on his game. He should not be starting on any team in the NFL.

He can throw the ball 70 yards, dont you think he would throw it if it called for it? Do you think he likes playing it safe, dont you think he would love to sit back and chuck it, YES! I think it takes a 7 step drop to get a deep ball off, when was the last time you guys saw one?

yes, a 7 step drop, or a sidestep, a step-up, an extra step back, a roll out, or a pump fake, or any number of things...

Double Barrel
02-26-2007, 08:19 PM
Yes, but what if the local media said (started the rumor) that you were looking to trade AJ? And this rumor goes national? As a good GM, you would have to to, at least, answer the phone and listen to what interest there was, no?

I don't believe the Texan FO has ever said they are shopping Carr or looking for a replacement - that's been all media .... :hmmm:

yeah, but that would be easy. The FO says no way in h-e-double-hockey-sticks do we make a deal for our only playmaker on offense, and a Pro Bowler at that. It would have to be such a blockbuster deal that knocks everyone's socks off to even merit a mention. If the local media started that rumor, they'd have egg on their face(s) in a heartbeat. Information moves quick in the internet age.

Honoring Earl 34
02-26-2007, 08:25 PM
So the question is what does all this mean ?

They could'nt get an offer they liked .

They're trying to sweeten the pot .

They're trying to re do Carr's contract .

You guys who are going yea he's back ... it's not good .

If your wife kicked you out and then said ... I'll take you back I guess cause I did'nt find someone I liked better ... would you view that as a good thing ?

HoustonFrog
02-26-2007, 08:26 PM
So the question is what does all this mean ?

They could'nt get an offer they liked .

They're trying to sweeten the pot .

They're trying to re do Carr's contract .

You guys who are going yea he's back ... it's not good .

If your wife kicked you out and then said ... I'll take you back I guess cause I did'nt find someone I liked better ... would you view that as a good thing ?


I hope. This whole thing has been a mess and they are showing people again why they continue to be a joke.

NFLforher
02-26-2007, 08:32 PM
He can throw the ball 70 yards, dont you think he would throw it if it called for it? Do you think he likes playing it safe, dont you think he would love to sit back and chuck it, YES! I think it takes a 7 step drop to get a deep ball off, when was the last time you guys saw one?


Never.

Tulip
02-26-2007, 09:08 PM
I'm not sure which sounds more implausible - that Kubiak/Smith have already given up on upgrading the QB position before the free agency period begins or that Plummer is actually contemplating retirement.

Both are BS.

petedy
02-26-2007, 10:19 PM
I hope. This whole thing has been a mess and they are showing people again why they continue to be a joke.
How they are handling this is horrible. This kind of treatment is terrible for Carr, the team and the fans.He has to know they really don't want him but there really isn't anything out there this year.Carr still has a lot of ability but when a team says they are entertaining offers but then say we have always planned to keep Carr it is a bunch of bull. Carr should demand his release or a trade and get the heck out of Houston. There is no sense in a place where you are not wanted or liked. The thing is I like him a lot as a QB but when the team is playing games about your postion on the team it's time to go. The damage has been done to Carr and his family and so there is no way to repair what they have done. For David in knowing all this will he put forth the effort to excell for a staff that really doesn't want you? I wouldn't.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 10:22 PM
How they are handling this is horrible. This kind of treatment is terrible for Carr, the team and the fans.He has to know they really don't want him but there really isn't anything out there this year.Carr still has a lot of ability but when a team says they are entertaining offers but then say we have always planned to keep Carr it is a bunch of bull. Carr should demand his release or a trade and get the heck out of Houston. There is no sense in a place where you are not wanted or liked. The thing is I like him a lot as a QB but when the team is playing games about your postion on the team it's time to go. The damage has been done to Carr and his family and so there is no way to repair what they have done. For David in knowing all this will he put forth the effort to excell for a staff that really doesn't want you? I wouldn't.

Hey, whatever gets him outta here is fine with me. David Carr is a poison to this franchise and this city. He doesn't care about wins or losses. All he cares about is all the money he's robbing from the Texans by staying here.

infantrycak
02-26-2007, 10:46 PM
Hey, whatever gets him outta here is fine with me. David Carr is a poison to this franchise and this city. He doesn't care about wins or losses. All he cares about is all the money he's robbing from the Texans by staying here.

Dude has never done anything to be labeled poison--try looking up Terrell Owens for poison. Really it is rather clownish to start ascribing greed and ill-motivation to players when there is no need or information to support it. Doesn't it suffice to say Carr has proven nothing here and needs to move on rather than over play your hand and try to ascribe bad intentions?

BattleRedToro
02-26-2007, 10:48 PM
Hey, whatever gets him outta here is fine with me. David Carr is a poison to this franchise and this city. He doesn't care about wins or losses. All he cares about is all the money he's robbing from the Texans by staying here.

That is a totally baseless accusation.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 10:56 PM
Dude has never done anything to be labeled poison--try looking up Terrell Owens for poison. Really it is rather clownish to start ascribing greed and ill-motivation to players when there is no need or information to support it. Doesn't it suffice to say Carr has proven nothing here and needs to move on rather than over play your hand and try to ascribe bad intentions?

I can recount a certain TV interview where Carr said that he didn't care if we won or lost and all that matters is that he's out there playing football.

BattleRedToro
02-26-2007, 10:56 PM
Then how he took his first snap from the gun, in week 8, and it didn't look good. I didn't mention that his coach didn't want to see that in a game for another 5 weeks.

That isn't true and you know it. Kubiak said they didn't use the shotgun because of the center, at that time I believe it was Hodgdon, not being able to handle it. Kubiak said it had nothing to do with David Carr. You are just repeating false accusations about David Carr's abilities that have been proven to be false in the past in much the same way that Joseph Goebbels did with his anti-semitic propaganda, knowing that if you repeat a lie often enough people will start to believe it. Shame on you.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 10:59 PM
Dude has never done anything to be labeled poison--try looking up Terrell Owens for poison. Really it is rather clownish to start ascribing greed and ill-motivation to players when there is no need or information to support it. Doesn't it suffice to say Carr has proven nothing here and needs to move on rather than over play your hand and try to ascribe bad intentions?

I wouldn't necessarily use the word poison, but I could see the special treatment David has gotten could get under the collar of some of the more vocal people on this team..... Gary Walker.. Sharper.. Glenn.. WAnd.. & a bunch of other players we let go for what really boils down to no good reason when you think about it.

Of course this is all speculation, I'm just saying I can see how the word "poison" could be used to describe David Carr's affect on this team.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 11:02 PM
I wouldn't necessarily use the word poison, but I could see the special treatment David has gotten could get under the collar of some of the more vocal people on this team..... Gary Walker.. Sharper.. Glenn.. WAnd.. & a bunch of other players we let go for what really boils down to no good reason when you think about it.

Of course this is all speculation, I'm just saying I can see how the word "poison" could be used to describe David Carr's affect on this team.

it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.

BattleRedToro
02-26-2007, 11:03 PM
How they are handling this is horrible. This kind of treatment is terrible for Carr, the team and the fans.He has to know they really don't want him but there really isn't anything out there this year.Carr still has a lot of ability but when a team says they are entertaining offers but then say we have always planned to keep Carr it is a bunch of bull. Carr should demand his release or a trade and get the heck out of Houston. There is no sense in a place where you are not wanted or liked. The thing is I like him a lot as a QB but when the team is playing games about your postion on the team it's time to go. The damage has been done to Carr and his family and so there is no way to repair what they have done. For David in knowing all this will he put forth the effort to excell for a staff that really doesn't want you? I wouldn't.

I'm not sure if you remember this or not, but there was a time when the Houston Rockets almost traded Hakeem Olajuwon. The story of the Rockets shopping him to other teams was run in the media and the relationship between Olajuwon and the Rockets FO was seriously damaged but ultimately they worked out their differences and later the Rockets won back to back championships. I'm not suggesting that David Carr is somehow equivalent to Olajuwon. I'm only suggesting that despite being mentioned in a possible trade it doesn't mean that the relationship between Carr and the Texans FO has passed the point of no return.

BattleRedToro
02-26-2007, 11:07 PM
I wouldn't necessarily use the word poison, but I could see the special treatment David has gotten could get under the collar of some of the more vocal people on this team..... Gary Walker.. Sharper.. Glenn.. WAnd.. & a bunch of other players we let go for what really boils down to no good reason when you think about it.

Of course this is all speculation, I'm just saying I can see how the word "poison" could be used to describe David Carr's affect on this team.

it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.

Gary Walker and Glenn were not resigned due to their age. Sharper was a monetary move and Wand was beat out in camp. Nice innuendo, but ultimately a specious arguement.

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 11:16 PM
it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.

I was just making that up, I don't know how any of those guys feel about David Carr.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 11:18 PM
I was just making that up, I don't know how any of those guys feel about David Carr.

kinda makes you wonder though. haha.

petedy
02-26-2007, 11:20 PM
it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.

So you know as afact that they were not Carr supporters or is this another speculation on your part? By the way Sharper was also released by the seahawks earlier in the season and was picked up by the Vikings and they too are believed to be thinking of releasing him as well.

Nighthawk
02-26-2007, 11:22 PM
Lets hope it lights a fire under Carr to take more on his shoulders knowing that he is this close to being sent packing. Maybe this is the kick in the rear he needed. You can have your opinion about him and go ahead and pack the season in already but I like to see what happens. Their just not anybody out there that is a upgrade, Plummer please Quinn yea ok , how about Sage well no thank you. I'm not a Carr lover but giving my choices I will take Carr.

Yeah, I hope it lights a fire under him and burns his sorry a55 to the ground. This is the worst possible news for the Texans.

Simply put, it's pathetic.

If we weren't a laughingstock before this rumor, we will be henceforth.

The ONLY hope is that this is another "clever" ploy to put some air under Carr's value, which seems to be about zero in this league. Don't you guys think that if ANYONE in the league thought Carr was worth a third he'd already be gone?

thunderkyss
02-26-2007, 11:22 PM
So you know as afact that they were not Carr supporters or is this another speculation on your part? By the way Sharper was also released by the seahawks earlier in the season and was picked up by the Vikings and they too are believed to be thinking of releasing him as well.

Of course they're thinking of releasing him.... they might trade their third for Carr... Duh..


:stirpot:



I repeat, I made all that stuff up.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 11:22 PM
So you know as afact that they were not Carr supporters or is this another speculation on your part? By the way Sharper was also released by the seahawks earlier in the season and was picked up by the Vikings and they too are believed to be thinking of releasing him as well.

pretty much everything on this board is speculation. i do have my opinions about certain things, though.

dirty steve
02-26-2007, 11:24 PM
it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.
nobody tells a guy who just spent 1 billion on a franchise what to do. not carr, not rick smith, not gary kubiak, etc.

you ever think sharper and walker arent on the team because of their cap number, injuries, and declining overall game? sharper's biting comments toward carr were a little petty in my opinion. a guy who has a ring and who would usually be counted on to be at least a leader on the defense if nothing else blames it on #8, like carr is the only one who is supposed to sac up.

if you need any proof as to why that sharper and walker arent on the team, check their stats from the 2005 and 2006 seasons. that might have had a little to do with it.

Navy_Chris
02-26-2007, 11:27 PM
nobody tells a guy who just spent 1 billion on a franchise what to do. not carr, not rick smith, not gary kubiak, etc.

sharper's biting comments toward carr were a little petty in my opinion. a guy who has a ring and who would usually be counted on to be at least a leader on the defense if nothing else blames it on #8, like carr is the only one who is supposed to sac up.

If I was Sharper and I had a worthless QB in David Carr, I might have said some of those things too. Yes, the franchise did him a disservice by just throwing him into the fire. But, it's time to move on. We can't afford to sit around and let Carr develop under Kubiak. It's already been 5 years.

petedy
02-26-2007, 11:50 PM
If I was Sharper and I had a worthless QB in David Carr, I might have said some of those things too. Yes, the franchise did him a disservice by just throwing him into the fire. But, it's time to move on. We can't afford to sit around and let Carr develop under Kubiak. It's already been 5 years.

I just got to know,are you secretly having a man crush on Carr and don't want anyone to know?

SamuraiSword
02-27-2007, 12:47 AM
Now here is a real question.....If we are going to keep Carr, what are we going to do about players on our team that will turn FA in 2008? They see the team only caring about David Carr and seeing the fan base dwindle. Would this cause the players to go elsewhere???

Second Honeymoon
02-27-2007, 12:55 AM
Carr has sucked and always will suck. He is a crappy QB. Period. End of story.

Our organization will continue to be a joke as long as we have that primadonna loser behind center. some of you are just too stupid to realize it.

Carr is a loser and always has been. If you are a fan of him, you are probably from California, a family member, a blithering moron or all of the above...*hint hint*

dalemurphy
02-27-2007, 02:35 AM
On the bright side, Kubes and Smith know that if they keep Carr the pass protection is going to have to be much, much better. Perhaps next week we'll see some real money spent to sure it up, maybe Pettigout or Steinbach, in addition to at least one first day pick. After all, keeping Carr gives us another 5 million to work with under the cap. Say what you want about Carr but we still don't know how well he'd function under a good offensive line. Maybe we find out this year!

NATHANHALE
02-27-2007, 05:14 AM
On the bright side, Kubes and Smith know that if they keep Carr the pass protection is going to have to be much, much better. Perhaps next week we'll see some real money spent to sure it up, maybe Pettigout or Steinbach, in addition to at least one first day pick. After all, keeping Carr gives us another 5 million to work with under the cap. Say what you want about Carr but we still don't know how well he'd function under a good offensive line. Maybe we find out this year!

We avg less than 2 sacks per game in 11 of 16 games-take away the sacks that Carr made on the year (about 1/3) and Carr was sacked about 27 times, maybe the low 30's--given that David can not work the pocket and has poor mechanics (foot work, arm placement,etc), the OL can only do so much.

What did we get from Carr for the improvement in sacks between '05 to '06? He was worse-11 tds.

aj.
02-27-2007, 06:19 AM
By the way Sharper was also released by the seahawks earlier in the season and was picked up by the Vikings and they too are believed to be thinking of releasing him as well.

Sharper was released by the Seahawks on March 2, 2006 primarily because of a bad knee. He finished the '05 season on IR after playing only 8 games for the Hawks. He hasn't played for anyone since mid-season '05 and he never played for the Vikes (although his brother Darren is their starting SS). Jamie's career as a player is likely finished.

Honoring Earl 34
02-27-2007, 06:39 AM
I was just making that up, I don't know how any of those guys feel about David Carr.

What did Wand say ? I must have missed it .

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 08:18 AM
On the bright side, Kubes and Smith know that if they keep Carr the pass protection is going to have to be much, much better. Perhaps next week we'll see some real money spent to sure it up, maybe Pettigout or Steinbach, in addition to at least one first day pick. After all, keeping Carr gives us another 5 million to work with under the cap. Say what you want about Carr but we still don't know how well he'd function under a good offensive line. Maybe we find out this year!

Not exactly. We save $5million by cutting David... no trade, no renegotiation, just flat out cut him.

He is scheduled to make something like $5.5million this year, it may be $5.75 million. Then $6million next year. Then you add in the $2million prorated bonus that we have to pay him in the next few days I think(It's $4million spread over the next two years.) and his cap hit will be $7.5million(or $7.75million) in '07, and $8million in '08.

If David is not on this team... whether we trade him, or cut him, we don't have to pay him his salary, and it does not go against the cap. We save money to let him go.

If you sign a Jake Plummer, an expected starter, you're going to have to pay him $5million. I'm thinking something like a $6million contract over 3 years, with a salary of $3million in '07, $4 million in 08, and $6million in 09. His '07 cap hit would be $5million(basically the same money you'd have paid David), his cap hit in '08 will be $6million(again, this is money we already had alotted for a QB, it's the same as David's salary would have been, had we kept him), and h is hit in '09 would be $8 million.

Now, if you think we are spending more money, or taking a bigger cap hit than we would if we kept David, we're not. in '07, our Cap hit for the QB position will be $7.5(or $7.75) million dollars. With Jake, (and my numbers) it will be $7million, we still save $0.5million, or $0.75million to sign Plummer.

In '08, our cap hit with David would be $8 million with Plummer, it will be $8million.

In '09, we don't know what our cap hit will be for the QB position. David's contract doesn't go out that far, and IF we signed Plummer to my deal, it would be $8million, the same as it was for '08. But we might have to throw in a $4 million roster bonus to get Jake to agree, that would make it a $22 million contract, but only $6 million guaranteed. For Jake, I wouldn't go over $6 million guaranteed(well, I wouldn't even go there, but if the Texans do something like that, I wouldn't be too upset.)

THat would be a pretty lucrative contract..... $22million over 3 years.... but only $6 million Guaranteed.

But the bottom line, we save money if David is not a Texan in '07.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 08:21 AM
What did Wand say ? I must have missed it .

Wand didn't say anything. I have no idea how he feels about David. I just threw his name in there, because I can't think of a good reason he was not on this team in '06. He played better than Spencer(IMHO), and at least provided a longer termed solution than Ephraim Salaam could possibly provide.

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 09:10 AM
Now here is a real question.....If we are going to keep Carr, what are we going to do about players on our team that will turn FA in 2008? They see the team only caring about David Carr and seeing the fan base dwindle. Would this cause the players to go elsewhere???


They go where the $$$ is.

Just like Edgerrin. He could have had a ring.

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 09:13 AM
it's funny how all the non-supporters of DC are no longer on the team. If that doesn't epitomize a guy that's got the FO around his finger, I don't know what does.


Injuries.

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 09:15 AM
I can recount a certain TV interview where Carr said that he didn't care if we won or lost and all that matters is that he's out there playing football.


Lol...

Can anyone else remember that?

Vinny
02-27-2007, 09:19 AM
Lol...

Can anyone else remember that?I don't remember that at all and I've followed the team as close as anyone and I'm not big on DC. That said, he was unusually festive when we lost to the 49ers and was giddy when talking about Reggie Bush as most of the coaches knew they were playing their last game. I saw it on Bob Allen's show and I mentioned it here at the time. I thought that wasn't a shining moment for DC as many men (and their families) were losing their jobs that day and would have to move their kids and relationships to other towns.

Honoring Earl 34
02-27-2007, 09:22 AM
I think he was asked about having fun after a loss . He responded ... that it was always fun on the field with his teamates .

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 09:31 AM
Agreed generally about not making too much out of news this soon, but this is also where the FO would feel that, in order to generate support for Carr and get him focused on playing here next year, they would come out publicly with their decision now.

Once again I laugh at all of the "we won't have any more fans" laments that are already starting up. Once again I reiterate that winning produces fans like humping rabbits and that losing is what kills them off. If our team plays well our stadium will be full and if they do not it will not. I didn't see the Bears' attendance drop off despite Rex Grossman sucking far far worse. For all of the belly aching about passing on Reggie Bush last year no one in Houston has breathed a peep about him in months. Few if any "fans" outside of Austin alum in the month of February were saying squat about how urgently we needed to draft Vince Young until his team started winning as proof of how great he was.

Truth remains now just as it did several months ago that there just aren't any viable decisions to be made this off season that involve dealing Carr. No sure-thing FAs or draft picks that fit long term given their price tag. It's laughable that people think Carr "costs too much for the investment" and yet want to cut/trade him, eat his bonus money, and overpay some other 32+ year old vet in the FA for 1-2 years until we put him out to pasture too and are back to square one. We simply do not now possess the team talent to go foraging for modest upgrades at QB at high cost.

We'll enter camp allowing Sage or some second-day draft pick to fight for the job but we're not going to spend big money when we have too many other bigger needs elsewhere. Too much money spent for too little return and I'd guess that the coaches still think he gets one more year to demonstrate sufficient improvement while we spend 07 looking to improve other positions. Petey Faggins single-handedly lost the Buffalo game and gave up killer big play after killer big play all year long--I have seen zero "cut Petey" threads. Our interior DL was made out of play-doh, our OL still haphazard and only getting older, our safeties utterly useless in even zone deep coverage, our linebackers outside of DeMeco listless, our number one pick putting together a good year before being slowed by injury ... but of course David Carr is the face of every failure in the quarterbacks-are-the-only-position-on-a-losing-team world of the message board fans.

You basically answered your own question while affirming my idea. It isn't the job of any FO to pander to fan demand for personnel decisions. It is the job of a FO who wants a revitalized fanbase to construct a winning team. The salary cap is also a reality of business in the NFL and I just don't expect or ask for the Texans to hamstring themselves financially this season to shut up a malcontent minority of the fanbase for a few months when I'd rather them invest in what they believe will most efficiently generate wins, which makes fans of all types feel better. Hell, I might not even mind hamstringing ourselves financially if there was an obviously dramatically better prospect at QB available, but there's not even that.

Healthy PR in general is of course important but you are overstating its relation to basic personnel decisions. Sure if Bob McNair got on TV tonight and flipped us all the bird and said to hell with what any Houston Texan fan thinks, I don't need any of you, then yes, that would certainly sour fan reception. However next time he is on TV it will be to endorse his second-year coach and GM and his belief in their decisions. The Atlanta Hawks are the "Atlanta Hawks" because they suck year after year--unless you are suggesting for some reason they suck because they do not have fan support. The NBA in particular is a poor example with which to make your case as only the best teams consistently sell out and some of the very best players routinely play for half-attendance because their teams and thus their W-L records are lousy.


Jerek Dropping that knowledge, Great couple of posts man!

srstex
02-27-2007, 09:42 AM
Carr to Cleveland plus picks, for the Browns first pick ( 3rd overall ) to pick up AP. So here is a story on NFL.com, and I was thinking what the Texans fan base thinks?

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 09:45 AM
There is only one reason I can see for The Atlanta Falcons drafting Michael Vick, and then continue to trot him out there as their starter..... & that's to appease fans. Most people believe he is not the best QB on that team, and does not give his team the best chance of winning.

I understand what you are saying, but that club that made that decision is closer to winning than we are. Of course being in the NFC is a big part of that.

I cannot see how the Houston Texans can continue to tell us that David Carr is the best thing we can find as a QB solution. He doesn't look ready.... I just finished watching the first Jacksonville game, and while I agree it was a good game for Carr, you can easily see he was still having trouble with his footwork/rhythm/timing as he dropped back... We're talking about week 7 here. Then the next week against the Titans, the first time he took a snap from the gun, you can see how uncomfortable he is, and how off his timing is, and through every game of the year, it takes him at least three Qtrs before he gets his rhythm, before he can "settle down"", and that's only if we have a lead.

IF David's going to be on this team..... & if David is going to start... then that's fine, but don't say that we are trying to win, and that winning will put butts in the seats.

If David is our starting QB(& I know you didn't say that David will start), but if David is our starting QB, then winning is not the Texans highest priority.

How can you say that, when truthfully there is really no player out there or will be out there that is a significant upgrade over him & justifies us taking the cap hit for DC we would have to take to get rid of him? Sounds like you want change just for the sake of change, & that's not always the best policy.

DC is most likely done here in houston, but Plummer/garcia are really not that much better than he is at this point in their careers. If we draft a young guy were most likely looking at about a 2 -year waiting period before we see results, so we would be pretty much in the same boat as far as the losing & an inept passing offense goes.

real
02-27-2007, 10:05 AM
How can you say that, when truthfully there is really no player out there or will be out there that is a significant upgrade over him & justifies us taking the cap hit for DC we would have to take to get rid of him? Sounds like you want change just for the sake of change, & that's not always the best policy.

DC is most likely done here in houston, but Plummer/garcia are really not that much better than he is at this point in their careers. If we draft a young guy were most likely looking at about a 2 -year waiting period before we see results, so we would be pretty much in the same boat as far as the losing & an inept passing offense goes.

It's no longer about trying to get a "significantly" better player....

It's about making a "significant" difference with the team...


Carr not starting for this team in '07 would be "significant" regardless of who the starter is. If we just get someone who is a little better than Carr, it will have a "significant" affect on the fans and players. And IMO, that "significant" difference will be a positive one.

Dr. Toro
02-27-2007, 10:09 AM
If this all is true, I'm happy for Carr and hope he can put a consistent season like the one we saw flashes of in years 3 and 5. I'll get behind whoever is taking the snaps, and I can defer to the wisdom of experts.

With respect to #8 the player, here are my thoughts. He's tough and accurate. His pocket presence leaves something to be desired. The only thing I'm worried about is that fans won't be mollified by anything less than a playoff win.

dalemurphy
02-27-2007, 10:11 AM
Not exactly. We save $5million by cutting David... no trade, no renegotiation, just flat out cut him.

He is scheduled to make something like $5.5million this year, it may be $5.75 million. Then $6million next year. Then you add in the $2million prorated bonus that we have to pay him in the next few days I think(It's $4million spread over the next two years.) and his cap hit will be $7.5million(or $7.75million) in '07, and $8million in '08.

If David is not on this team... whether we trade him, or cut him, we don't have to pay him his salary, and it does not go against the cap. We save money to let him go.

If you sign a Jake Plummer, an expected starter, you're going to have to pay him $5million. I'm thinking something like a $6million contract over 3 years, with a salary of $3million in '07, $4 million in 08, and $6million in 09. His '07 cap hit would be $5million(basically the same money you'd have paid David), his cap hit in '08 will be $6million(again, this is money we already had alotted for a QB, it's the same as David's salary would have been, had we kept him), and h is hit in '09 would be $8 million.

Now, if you think we are spending more money, or taking a bigger cap hit than we would if we kept David, we're not. in '07, our Cap hit for the QB position will be $7.5(or $7.75) million dollars. With Jake, (and my numbers) it will be $7million, we still save $0.5million, or $0.75million to sign Plummer.

In '08, our cap hit with David would be $8 million with Plummer, it will be $8million.

In '09, we don't know what our cap hit will be for the QB position. David's contract doesn't go out that far, and IF we signed Plummer to my deal, it would be $8million, the same as it was for '08. But we might have to throw in a $4 million roster bonus to get Jake to agree, that would make it a $22 million contract, but only $6 million guaranteed. For Jake, I wouldn't go over $6 million guaranteed(well, I wouldn't even go there, but if the Texans do something like that, I wouldn't be too upset.)

THat would be a pretty lucrative contract..... $22million over 3 years.... but only $6 million Guaranteed.

But the bottom line, we save money if David is not a Texan in '07.


You have a fair point, however, if we keep David this year and he improves then we're in good shape. If he doesn't and we cut him next year, the cap hit is only $3million instead of almost $6 million and it will likely be a better crop of QBs available: for instance Schaub will be an UFA. Also, theoretically, it will be the second year of a developmental QB like Kolb- who will cost much less than Plummer- who, by the way, is near the end of his career.

SamuraiSword
02-27-2007, 10:12 AM
On the bright side, Kubes and Smith know that if they keep Carr the pass protection is going to have to be much, much better. Perhaps next week we'll see some real money spent to sure it up, maybe Pettigout or Steinbach, in addition to at least one first day pick. After all, keeping Carr gives us another 5 million to work with under the cap. Say what you want about Carr but we still don't know how well he'd function under a good offensive line. Maybe we find out this year!

On that part I think you forgot the :sarcasm: part...Carr is suppose to make 7 million next season????? How is that going to make room for cap space.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 10:24 AM
It's no longer about trying to get a "significantly" better player....

It's about making a "significant" difference with the team...


Carr not starting for this team in '07 would be "significant" regardless of who the starter is. If we just get someone who is a little better than Carr, it will have a "significant" affect on the fans and players. And IMO, that "significant" difference will be a positive one.



That's your opinion & i can respect that, but IMO, unless the person who replaces him is significantly better then this team is pretty much in the same boat. & if were just looking for someone who's only marginally better, then those types of Qb's are available or will be, all over the place, Harrington, Bledsoe, soon to be Kitna etc.

real
02-27-2007, 10:34 AM
That's your opinion & i can respect that, but IMO, unless the person who replaces him is significantly better then this team is pretty much in the same boat. & if were just looking for someone who's only marginally better, then those types of Qb's are available or will be, all over the place, Harrington, Bledsoe, soon to be Kitna etc.

Do you think Garcia is SIGNIFICANTLY better than McNabb ?

Is Garrad SIGNIFICANTLY better than Leftwhich ?

Is Romo SIGNIFICANTLY better than Bledsoe ?

Is Damon Huard SIGNIFICANTLY better than Trent Green ?



It's not about the significant differences in players. It's the little differnces between players that have SIGNIFICANT effects on teams.

Those games "we could have won", we "might have won" had there been a LITTLE more to go right.

humbleone
02-27-2007, 11:01 AM
Do you think Garcia is SIGNIFICANTLY better than McNabb ?

Is Garrad SIGNIFICANTLY better than Leftwhich ?

Is Romo SIGNIFICANTLY better than Bledsoe ?

Is Damon Huard SIGNIFICANTLY better than Trent Green ?



It's not about the significant differences in players. It's the little differnces between players that have SIGNIFICANT effects on teams.

Those games "we could have won", we "might have won" had there been a LITTLE more to go right.


Is Garcia better than McNabb? No, and apparently the Eagles agree since they are going to let him walk (probably to Denver btw which if it happens means they like him more than Plummer)

Is Garrad better than Leftwich? No, and apparently the Jags agree because they recently (within the last week I think) stated that Leftwich was their starter.

Is Romo better than Bledsoe? Unclear at this point due to the lack of games to evaluate but on paper it would appear so.

Is Huard better than Green? No, and the chiefs apparently agree with that as well.

El Tejano
02-27-2007, 11:03 AM
Carr to Cleveland plus picks, for the Browns first pick ( 3rd overall ) to pick up AP. So here is a story on NFL.com, and I was thinking what the Texans fan base thinks?

Is that just speculation also?

Vinny
02-27-2007, 11:04 AM
Is that just speculation also?yeah, it was in some Ohio fishwrap....I don't think the we give up our first day picks to do this.

real
02-27-2007, 11:04 AM
Is Garcia better than McNabb? No, and apparently the Eagles agree since they are going to let him walk (probably to Denver btw which if it happens means they like him more than Plummer)

Is Garrad better than Leftwich? No, and apparently the Jags agree because they recently (within the last week I think) stated that Leftwich was their starter.

Is Romo better than Bledsoe? Unclear at this point due to the lack of games to evaluate but on paper it would appear so.

Is Huard better than Green? No, and the chiefs apparently agree with that as well.

Exactly. You pretty much proved my point.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 11:08 AM
How can you say that, when truthfully there is really no player out there or will be out there that is a significant upgrade over him & justifies us taking the cap hit for DC we would have to take to get rid of him? Sounds like you want change just for the sake of change, & that's not always the best policy.

DC is most likely done here in houston, but Plummer/garcia are really not that much better than he is at this point in their careers. If we draft a young guy were most likely looking at about a 2 -year waiting period before we see results, so we would be pretty much in the same boat as far as the losing & an inept passing offense goes.

How can you say that?? When we saw 4 rookies who looked more ready for the NFL than David Carr. Vince, Matt, Cutler, & GradKowski...... not to mention old man Huard who hadn't thrown a football in this league in over 5 years, and Romo who hadn't thrown a football in the NFL for the three years he was in the league.

& we wouldn't be stressing ourselves financially at all to dump David now. It actually makes as much sense to dump him now, as it did last year. last year saying goodbye to David would have cost us nothing, and we would have saved $13 million. This year, we save $5.5(or $5.75 million to let him walk).

I'll repeat that, because some people just aren't getting it.

We save $5million towards the cap if we let David Walk.

We'll take a $7million+ hit if David stays........ a $2million hit if he walks.

& I don't want to here that two year crap anymore. Let David go, keep him, it doesn't matter, we are still 2 years away, maybe more if he stays.

Second Honeymoon
02-27-2007, 11:15 AM
How can you say that, when truthfully there is really no player out there or will be out there that is a significant upgrade over him & justifies us taking the cap hit for DC we would have to take to get rid of him? Sounds like you want change just for the sake of change, & that's not always the best policy.

DC is most likely done here in houston, but Plummer/garcia are really not that much better than he is at this point in their careers. If we draft a young guy were most likely looking at about a 2 -year waiting period before we see results, so we would be pretty much in the same boat as far as the losing & an inept passing offense goes.

dude, you arent even a real fan. you are more concerned about the cowboys losing than Texans football obviously. just another ignorant houstonian with a inferiority complex towards Dallas....what a tool

as for your take on DC, if you still think DC is a good QB you either dont watch the Texans games or you are just an ignorant fan with no idea on what it takes both on and off the field to be a successful starting QB.

but whatever, keep your little pinup boy DC. it will get you another year of uninspired losing football.....

DC sucks and always has. he has never shown anything other than the ability to cash an unearned paycheck.

screw all DC homers

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 11:20 AM
You have a fair point, however, if we keep David this year and he improves then we're in good shape. If he doesn't and we cut him next year, the cap hit is only $3million instead of almost $6 million and it will likely be a better crop of QBs available: for instance Schaub will be an UFA. Also, theoretically, it will be the second year of a developmental QB like Kolb- who will cost much less than Plummer- who, by the way, is near the end of his career.

So you're saying take a $7 million cap hit to see if David improves. if he doesn't(and I've got 2.5 years of data, game film, etc... whatever to point to the unlikelyhood of that) we cut him... the cap hit in '08 would still be $2million(from David's signing bonus) plus what ever you pay your new QB...

The $6 million doesn't get counted against the cap, unless we pay it out to someone. If we cut David, it doesn't count.

Unless I'm mistaken about where you are getting your $6 million cap hit from.

disaacks3
02-27-2007, 11:24 AM
On that part I think you forgot the :sarcasm: part...Carr is suppose to make 7 million next season????? How is that going to make room for cap space. It comes down to bonus $$. When you CUT a player, you accelerate that bonus $$ to hit the cap THAT year, rather than it's original pro-rated (over the length of the contract) amount.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 11:30 AM
That's your opinion & i can respect that, but IMO, unless the person who replaces him is significantly better then this team is pretty much in the same boat. & if were just looking for someone who's only marginally better, then those types of Qb's are available or will be, all over the place, Harrington, Bledsoe, soon to be Kitna etc.

The player would be a significant improvement, if we aren't spending practice time talking about how to drop back. If we aren't wasting practice time to get him "comfortable" in the gun. If we aren't simplifying our playbook trying to get our QB to "settle down" through the first three Qtrs of a real game that counts.

b'sides, I'm sure Kitna earned himself a starting job.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 11:43 AM
It comes down to bonus $$. When you CUT a player, you accelerate that bonus $$ to hit the cap THAT year, rather than it's original pro-rated (over the length of the contract) amount.

If David stays, we pay him a $4 million bonus, plus his $5million+salary. the Bonus is pro-rated over the next 2 years to $2 million a year, David's '07 cap number is $7million+

If we cut David before June 1st, the bonus is accelerated, and we have $4million of dead money against our cap. We save $3million+ to let him walk.

If we cut David after June 1st, or simply designate him & one other player as a June 1st cut, the Bonus isn't prorated. $2million will go against our '07 cap, and $2million will go against our '08 cap.

There is no scenario(that I can think of) that would save us money by keeping David on our roster in '07.

humbleone
02-27-2007, 11:57 AM
If David stays, we pay him a $4 million bonus, plus his $5million+salary. the Bonus is pro-rated over the next 2 years to $2 million a year, David's '07 cap number is $7million+

If we cut David before June 1st, the bonus is accelerated, and we have $4million of dead money against our cap. We save $3million+ to let him walk.

If we cut David after June 1st, or simply designate him & one other player as a June 1st cut, the Bonus isn't prorated. $2million will go against our '07 cap, and $2million will go against our '08 cap.

There is no scenario(that I can think of) that would save us money by keeping David on our roster in '07.

I assume you mean not counting the cost to replace him.

Honoring Earl 34
02-27-2007, 12:02 PM
I heard Miami was going to cut Harrington ... does this mean anything to us ?

real
02-27-2007, 12:03 PM
I heard Miami was going to cut Harrington ... does this mean anything to us ?

I hope not.

Vinny
02-27-2007, 12:04 PM
I heard Miami was going to cut Harrington ... does this mean anything to us ?
It means that 2002 wasn't the year to take a franchise QB.

El Tejano
02-27-2007, 12:06 PM
It means that 2002 wasn't the year to take a franchise QB.

That stings!!!!!!

Honoring Earl 34
02-27-2007, 12:07 PM
It means that 2002 wasn't the year to take a franchise QB.

Ain't that the truth .

I think it hurts Carr's trade value being their a lot alike .

Double Barrel
02-27-2007, 12:26 PM
It means that 2002 wasn't the year to take a franchise QB.

D'oh!

Hey, our guy still has poooootential and all that jazz. We just need another couple of years to evaluate + Pro Bowl offensive line + HoF running back + two more playmakers...and hey, we might have a decent offense if/when it all works out. :ok:

Vinny
02-27-2007, 12:36 PM
D'oh!

Hey, our guy still has poooootential and all that jazz. We just need another couple of years to evaluate + Pro Bowl offensive line + HoF running back + two more playmakers...and hey, we might have a decent offense if/when it all works out. :ok:They are really not that far apart on the stat sheet. Carr has 32 more attempts but Harrington has more 14 more TD's (about a year's worth more TD's - 14 or so is the production for Carr anyway) and completed 4-5% less passes overall.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302199

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268

srstex
02-27-2007, 12:44 PM
How can you say that?? When we saw 4 rookies who looked more ready for the NFL than David Carr. Vince, Matt, Cutler, & GradKowski...... not to mention old man Huard who hadn't thrown a football in this league in over 5 years, and Romo who hadn't thrown a football in the NFL for the three years he was in the league.

& we wouldn't be stressing ourselves financially at all to dump David now. It actually makes as much sense to dump him now, as it did last year. last year saying goodbye to David would have cost us nothing, and we would have saved $13 million. This year, we save $5.5(or $5.75 million to let him walk).

I'll repeat that, because some people just aren't getting it.

We save $5million towards the cap if we let David Walk.

We'll take a $7million+ hit if David stays........ a $2million hit if he walks.

& I don't want to here that two year crap anymore. Let David go, keep him, it doesn't matter, we are still 2 years away, maybe more if he stays.

Actually all four were worse than Carr, although VY won more due to the team around him-VY wins another game with 2int's for a TD, 1 punt rtn for TD, and a field goal, let's when has Carr ever gotten that kind of back up. VY % was terrible, & the Broncos had a winning season until Cutler came in, that and the defense lost steam and fell out of being the best D in the NFL.
This is a team sport, and NO your QB can not do it alone. The only reason to replace Carr is to get uninformed fans a reason to wait two more years with a losing team. IF Carr stays, that will but us time to develope a QB, which is Kubiaks strong suit. or at least so everyone says.

Vinny
02-27-2007, 12:54 PM
Actually all four were worse than Carr, although VY won more due to the team around himThe Titans were 9-23 the previous two years before Young took over....the only thing that changed on that team was Young. In case you missed it they were one win from the playoffs......and before Young took over they were winless.

Arky
02-27-2007, 12:58 PM
Here's one for ya - compare "Quarterback X" and David Carr after 5 years:

(See if you can guess who QB X is. Answer at bottom)

Stat = QB X (David Carr)

Team record = 23-46-1 (24-56)
TD/INT = 43/76 (59/65)
Passing yards = 8519 (13, 391)
Completion % = 50% (60%)
QB rating = 56.6 (75.5)
Sacks = 134 (249)
Fumbles = 37 (66)


















Got it ? Luv Ya Blue was still a few years away for Dan Pastorini (1971-1975). Pastorini's 5th year (1975) bought him more time as the team went 10-4. Without that year, his 5 year team record would have been atrocious...

Vinny
02-27-2007, 01:03 PM
Got it ? Luv Ya Blue was still a few years away for Dan Pastorini (1971-1975). Pastorini's 5th year (1975) bought him more time as the team went 10-4. Without that year, his 5 year team record would have been atrocious...
It's just about impossible to compare qb's in different eras. The game was different, the defenses were allowed to manhandle wr's on every play and at any place on the field....the completion %'s were generally lower as most teams were more vertical then. Heck, hall of famer Joe Namith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/NamaJo00.htm) rarely threw for 50% ever.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 01:03 PM
I assume you mean not counting the cost to replace him.

I factored in the cost of replacing him in another post (http://forums.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=606420&postcount=157) In the one you quoted, I was just going over when the bonus would be accelerated, and when it wouldn't.

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 01:08 PM
The Titans were 9-23 the previous two years before Young took over....the only thing that changed on that team was Young. In case you missed it they were one win from the playoffs......and before Young took over they were winless.

I was going to let it go but I can't.

Young was still winless after the first start.

His second start.

Travis Henry had more rushing yards than Youngs passing yarrds and just as many rushing Touch Downs as Young had passing Touch Downs in his third start against Washington.

David Carr won it for the Titans in the first meeting

The Titan D beat the Jags with Young's outstanding 85 yards for the game.

I can see where it was all Young though.

Well worth Rookie of the Year.

I have already heard the "It" speech, give me something new.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Do you think Garcia is SIGNIFICANTLY better than McNabb ?

Is Garrad SIGNIFICANTLY better than Leftwhich ?

Is Romo SIGNIFICANTLY better than Bledsoe ?

Is Damon Huard SIGNIFICANTLY better than Trent Green ?



It's not about the significant differences in players. It's the little differnces between players that have SIGNIFICANT effects on teams.

Those games "we could have won", we "might have won" had there been a LITTLE more to go right.


So you're basically saying that every game we could have won, we lost b/c of DC? Check that, I know that's not what you're saying, but come on man. The league is full of shoulda coulda woulda. & all the guys you mentioned above are being compared to probowlers with the exception of Leftwitch so that's pretty much invalid. Hell Romo sat for what 3 years before he got his shot? Those guys are/were backups for a reason so who's to say that they get here & stink it up on our obviously talent-inferior team (jeff Garcia in Cleveland/ Detroit?)

What i'm getting at is that we are far from a plug & play team & most guys that will be available for us to get via free agency are out there for a reason which for the most, that means that the teams they were on previously think that they aren't worth keeping around. Let DC stay here & continue to take the beating while Kubes acquires/drafts & develops a young QB for the LONG TERM. That way, it saves us from taking any kind of cap hit at all & if need be, Sage can fill in for the interim if DC gets hurt. That fact of the matter is, were a few years away from competing regardless if we get rid of him or keep him.

In a few years DC will be making his rounds with all of them as a quality back up anyway so just stand pat, unless someone offers us a deal we can't refuse for him.

ArlingtonTexan
02-27-2007, 01:12 PM
It means that 2002 wasn't the year to take a franchise QB.

Scary, but Carr really was the best QB available out of this bunch.

1 1 David Carr QB Fresno State
1 3 Joey Harrington QB Oregon
1 32 Patrick Ramsey QB Tulane
3 81 Josh McCown QB Sam Houston State
4 108 David Garrard QB East Carolina
4 117 Rohan Davey QB Louisiana State
5 137 Randy Fasani QB Stanford
5 158 Kurt Kittner QB Illinois
5 163 Brandon Doman QB Brigham Young
5 164 Craig Nall QB Northwestern State, La.
6 186 J.T. O'Sullivan QB Cal-Davis
7 216 Seth Burford QB Cal Poly-SLO
7 232 Jeff Kelly QB Southern Mississippi
7 236 Wes Pate QB Stephen F. Austin

Vinny
02-27-2007, 01:13 PM
I was going to let it go but I can't.

Young was still winless after the first start. Yeah, but he beat Manning his second time...took Carr 5 years. Amazing all you Carr supporters say that we should give Carr half a decade to prove himself but Rookie of the year Vince Young sucks....you guys are credible as hell.

KennyHolmes99
02-27-2007, 01:14 PM
Front Office: "I think we neeed a new QB."
Carr" (waves hand) "These aren't the droids you're looking for"

LOL, i got it.

kbourda
02-27-2007, 01:16 PM
Scary, but Carr really was the best QB available out of this bunch.

No offense but with that group of HOF'ers that's nothing to hang your proverbial hat on.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:16 PM
Scary, but Carr really was the best QB available out of this bunch.

Maybe David Garrard is better? I dunno but your right...he seems to be the best lol.

Arky
02-27-2007, 01:16 PM
It's just about impossible to compare qb's in different eras. The game was different, the defenses were allowed to manhandle wr's on every play and at any place on the field....the completion %'s were generally lower as most teams were more vertical then. Heck, hall of famer Joe Namith (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/NamaJo00.htm) rarely threw for 50% ever.

The point was perceived suckage is for all eras.

The Oilers never gave up on Pastorini and I can't imagine Luv Ya Blue without him. Who's to say Carr can't do this with a killer O-line and a playmaker running back (Earl). All of a sudden his passing game gets a whole better....

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 01:17 PM
Yeah, but he beat Manning his second time...took Carr 5 years. Amazing all you Carr supporters say that we should give Carr half a decade to prove himself but Rookie of the year Vince Young sucks....you guys are credible as hell.

Now don't take it personal. I never once said Carr.

IMO Colston deserved OROY. A seventh round pick who had half of VY's passing yards and half as many TD's by a guy who doesn't touch the ball 100% of the time.

Your a fan of Young the same way a lot of us were fans of Carr in the very begining.

The "It" factor will wear off once his team gets tired of hoisting him up on there shoulders.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:19 PM
were a few years away from competing regardless if we get rid of him or keep him.

I am tired of hearing people say this. We are not a few years away. We are a few players away. If we would have had better QB play last year would would have probably gone .500. Stop saying we are a few years away. We are going to be far away from competing as long as David Carr is playing QB for us.

Who's to say Carr can't do this with a killer O-line and a playmaker running back (Earl).

He does when he plays and shows his inability to score.

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 01:21 PM
I am tired of hearing people say this. We are not a few years away. We are a few players away. If we would have had better QB play last year would would have probably gone .500. Stop saying we are a few years away. We are going to be far away from competing as long as David Carr is playing QB for us.

a few if you mean:
RB
WR
OL
DL
OLB
CB
SS
FS

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:22 PM
Yeah, but he beat Manning his second time...took Carr 5 years. Amazing all you Carr supporters say that we should give Carr half a decade to prove himself but Rookie of the year Vince Young sucks....you guys are credible as hell.

Nobody's saying VY sucks, at least i'm not, but you guys give him waayyy too much credit for the teams' success just b/c they started winning when he started playing more.

That same argument works for any rookie who contributed fairly well on any winning team. (RB/addai/Mcneil) but no one is stupid enough to argue that addai is the reason the colts won the superbowl, or that marcus mcneil is the reason that the Chargers went 14-2 are they? I hope not.

ArlingtonTexan
02-27-2007, 01:23 PM
No offense but with that group of HOF'ers that's nothing to hang your proverbial hat on.

A more serious point is that you really not only need understand who is the best player within a class, but also how that player compares to the league in general. This is essentially why teams don't merely get to a point in a draft a go, ______ is the best at his position left and I need that position, so I am going to draft ______.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:24 PM
a few if you mean:
RB
WR
OL
DL
OLB
CB
SS
FS

Exactly

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:26 PM
a few if you mean:
RB
WR
OL
DL
OLB
CB
SS
FS

No...your talking about the players we need to have completly filled our holes. I am sayin until we are at about .500 aka competing. Not filling every hole we have. It's easy to say we are years away we have holes here and here and here. Our team is not terrible...but we will look terrible when our QB fumbles more than he throws touchdowns.

Edit: Every team has holes. Even the Colts.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 01:30 PM
Actually all four were worse than Carr, although VY won more due to the team around him-VY wins another game with 2int's for a TD, 1 punt rtn for TD, and a field goal, let's when has Carr ever gotten that kind of back up. VY % was terrible, & the Broncos had a winning season until Cutler came in, that and the defense lost steam and fell out of being the best D in the NFL.
This is a team sport, and NO your QB can not do it alone. The only reason to replace Carr is to get uninformed fans a reason to wait two more years with a losing team. IF Carr stays, that will but us time to develope a QB, which is Kubiaks strong suit. or at least so everyone says.

personally, I don't have a problem with David coming back to the Texans. I just don't think he is ready to start... the four guys I mentioned, regardless of their W/L record are more ready to start than David Carr.

Watch them play the game... Look for consistency in their drop backs, their ability to go through a progression, their ability to decide to throw the ball(without having to lock onto a receiver & wait until he is facing you), their ability to avoid a sack, and move away from the pressure. See how many times they throw the ball after they've been sacked. See how they take snaps from under center or from the gun. Their ability to call audibles, their ability to run a hurry up offense, and a 2 minute drill, etc...

Look, there was a time when we talked about how bad Alex Smith & J.P. Losman were compared to our QB. But right now, both of their careers are on an upswing, while ours is flat.

& they've got the same talent level around them that David has had. I admit that Frank Gore has produced more than any RB David has ever played with, But aside from that, we're pretty even.

Losman & Smith have thrown for more TDs, & more yards than David. That's what QBs are supposed to do, throw TDs, and move the ball. Sure, David has a higher completion percentage, and less INTs, but neither of those give you wins like yards & TDs. By the way, Losman was sacked 47 times, Smith 35 times, David 41 times.


David Carr 16games 172 ypg 11 Tds 12 INts 41 sacks

Lienart 12games 212 ypg 11TDs, 12 INTs 21 sacks
Gradkowski 13games 127 ypg 9 TDs 9 INts 25 sacks
Young 15 games 146 ypg 12 TDs 13 INts 25 sacks
Cutler 5 games 200 ypg 9 TDs 5 Ints 13 sacks

all rookies... well, except one.

Vinny
02-27-2007, 01:32 PM
...you guys give him waayyy too much credit for the teams' success just b/c they started winning when he started playing more.

ok, then I'll credit magic beans. If you can't see reality, we may as well work in the magic bean angle.

kbourda
02-27-2007, 01:33 PM
I was going to let it go but I can't.

Young was still winless after the first start.

His second start.

Travis Henry had more rushing yards than Youngs passing yarrds and just as many rushing Touch Downs as Young had passing Touch Downs in his third start against Washington.

David Carr won it for the Titans in the first meeting

The Titan D beat the Jags with Young's outstanding 85 yards for the game.

I can see where it was all Young though.

Well worth Rookie of the Year.

I have already heard the "It" speech, give me something new.

You should have let it go.

I think we all can agree that the QB position in football is the most criticized position in all of sports:

"Travis Henry had more rushing yards than Youngs passing yarrds and just as many rushing Touch Downs as Young had passing Touch Downs in his third start against Washington." Win

"David Carr won it for the Titans in the first meeting." Win

"The Titan D beat the Jags with Young's outstanding 85 yards for the game." Win

The point is the QB gets the credit and blame for wins and losses. Have you ever heard anyone say the Colts have a monkey on their backs? I didn't think so. "Marino couldn't win the big one"..... Sound familiar? It goes with the territory. I respect the player that Vince is but to flat out say he was the reason for some of the wins the Titans got would be crazy. He is the QB on record for the Titans. Love it or Hate it, the Titans made huge strides when he took the reigns. Coincidence? Who knows. Luck or Skill? Maybe. But take it for what it's worth. Do you feel that we as Texans fans would be saying anything different if we were to have similar success at the QB position?

GP
02-27-2007, 01:34 PM
personally, I don't have a problem with David coming back to the Texans. I just don't think he is ready to start... the four guys I mentioned, regardless of their W/L record are more ready to start than David Carr.

Watch them play the game... Look for consistency in their drop backs, their ability to go through a progression, their ability to decide to throw the ball(without having to lock onto a receiver & wait until he is facing you), their ability to avoid a sack, and move away from the pressure. See how many times they throw the ball after they've been sacked. See how they take snaps from under center or from the gun. Their ability to call audibles, etc...

Look, there was a time when we talked about how bad Alex Smith & J.P. Losman were compared to our QB. But right now, both of their careers are on an upswing, while ours is flat.

& they've got the same talent level around them that David has had. I admit that Frank Gore has produced more than any RB David has ever played with, But aside from that, we're pretty even.

Losman & Smith have thrown for more TDs, & more yards than David. That's what QBs are supposed to do, throw TDs, and move the ball. Sure, David has a higher completion percentage, and less INTs, but neither of those give you wins like yards & TDs. By the way, Losman was sacked 47 times, Smith 35 times, David 41 times.


David Carr 16games 172 ypg 11 Tds 12 INts 41 sacks

Lienart 12games 212 ypg 11TDs, 12 INTs 21 sacks
Gradkowski 13games 127 ypg 9 TDs 9 INts 25 sacks
Young 15 games 146 ypg 12 TDs 13 INts 25 sacks
Cutler 5 games 200 ypg 9 TDs 5 Ints 13 sacks

all rookies... well, except one.

How feasible is it to retain a 6th-year QB (Carr) and have him watch from the sidelines?

I don't think so.

The time for that was in years one and two...and maybe three (like Steve McNair). That time has long since passed, TK.

It looks mentally-challenged to have David Carr holding the clip-board on the sideline in his sixth year. Plummer isn't putting up with that sort of spoon-feeding, debasing action...he wants to be the MAN or get the heck out of the league altogether IMO.

I don't see DC taking this sort of sidelining as you say you can envision or that you desire. He'll be here as the starter, or he will want out. Nothing else. It's in their nature. They don't go against it. Ever.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:34 PM
No...your talking about the players we need to have completly filled our holes. I am sayin until we are at about .500 aka competing. Not filling every hole we have. It's easy to say we are years away we have holes here and here and here. Our team is not terrible...but we will look terrible when our QB fumbles more than he throws touchdowns.


We were nearly there in 2004 at 7-9 With DC so 0.500 is within reach if were basing competing on your definition. What has changed since then: let me think, Sharper,glenn,walker all gone. We followed that up with yet another garbage draft/free agency from C & C & the next year, suffered our worst losing (lol) season. Coincidence? I think not.

Vinny
02-27-2007, 01:36 PM
The point was perceived suckage is for all eras.

The Oilers never gave up on Pastorini and I can't imagine Luv Ya Blue without him. Who's to say Carr can't do this with a killer O-line and a playmaker running back (Earl). All of a sudden his passing game gets a whole better....maybe I think Dan was a better QB because Pastorini could read a defense and hit his secondary wr...or who's to say any average QB can't win with a killer O-line and a hall of fame RB? I mean, is that what it is going to take for Carr go be successful? If so, stop paying him like a franchise QB and start paying him like a journeyman. There is a cap and if you pay an average QB like a superstar your team won't be a very good one most of the time.

disaacks3
02-27-2007, 01:37 PM
The Titans were 9-23 the previous two years before Young took over....the only thing that changed on that team was Young. In case you missed it they were one win from the playoffs......and before Young took over they were winless. Yep, they really needed to kick that "worthless scrub" out @ QB. That same scrub QB who DID take his team into the playoffs (losing to the eventual SB winner). The same one who sat out the Pro Bowl and allowed VY to go.

Was VY really an upgrade over McNair? c'mon now...

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:39 PM
We were nearly there in 2004 at 7-9 With DC so 0.500 is within reach if were basing competing on your definition. What has changed since then: let me think, Sharper,glenn,walker all gone. We followed that up with yet another garbage draft/free agency from C & C & the next year, suffered our worst losing (lol) season. Coincidence? I think not.


First...yes I would say winning half of the games you play is the start of competing. Second...2004 was quite awhile ago so us being 7-9 then doesn't really mean anything to me when I look at next season for us. Third...I dont really get what your saying. What's your overall point?

Vinny
02-27-2007, 01:40 PM
Yep, they really needed to kick that "worthless scrub" out @ QB. That same scrub QB who DID take his team into the playoffs (losing to the eventual SB winner). The same one who sat out the Pro Bowl and allowed VY to go.

Was VY really an upgrade over McNair? c'mon now...Well, I guess you haven't figured it out yet...McNair is at the end of his career....he wasn't all that impressive last year. Cue up a game sometime....it should help. Yeah, most of the NFL thinks that Young will be an upgrade long term...well, except for Houston fans.

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 01:40 PM
No...your talking about the players we need to have completly filled our holes. I am sayin until we are at about .500 aka competing. Not filling every hole we have. It's easy to say we are years away we have holes here and here and here. Our team is not terrible...but we will look terrible when our QB fumbles more than he throws touchdowns.

Other than AJ, Ryans, DRob, Weaver, Williams, who would you catogorize as starting NFL material?

kbourda
02-27-2007, 01:43 PM
Well, I guess you haven't figured it out yet...McNair is at the end of his career....he wasn't all that impressive last year. Cue up a game sometime....it should help. Yeah, most of the NFL thinks that Young will be an upgrade long term...well, except for Houston fans.

Let me correct you a bit there V., and former Texan management!

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:44 PM
First...yes I would say winning half of the games you play is the start of competing. Second...2004 was quite awhile ago so us being 7-9 then doesn't really mean anything to me when I look at next season for us. Third...I dont really get what your saying. What's your overall point?

that by your definition of competing which is 8-8, in which DC was our starting QB in 2004 we were 7-9, it shouldn't be a complete stretch to say that with a little more talent, we can compete with DC at the helm then right?

real
02-27-2007, 01:46 PM
that by your definition of competing which is 8-8, in which DC was our starting QB in 2004 we were 7-9, it shouldn't be a complete stretch to say that with a little more talent, we can compete with DC at the helm then right?

With a little more talent the Bears could have won the superbowl right ?

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 01:49 PM
With a little more talent the Bears could have won the superbowl right ?

Yep, of course the bears had everything else in place to at least make it there, it didn't start & end with Rex.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:50 PM
Other than AJ, Ryans, DRob, Weaver, Williams, who would you catogorize as starting NFL material?

Well what is your definition of starting NFL material. There's plenty of guys who can start but may not make plays or may give up big pays. Is your definition of a starter a guy who can shut down the guy in front of them (on defense)...or beat the guy in front of them (on offense)? Or is that your definition of a star? I think if we add a few new guys on both sides of the ball we can be competitive. Sure we don't have players at each position that you will feel completely comfortable with but most teams do.

You guys don't look at it how you should. You can't say OK let's look at the roster and see who I think is starting material. You can have players that may not be YOUR definition of starting material but have a good connection with their teamates and play decent enough to not be a liability. Players play different with different players.

Our defensive unit was playing pretty together at the end of the year. There are ALOT of guys on that unit that aren't "starting material" but that doesn't keep them from playing well enough to not be a liability. Sure there are some liabilities but understand that I am talking in general.

A couple new starters on each side of the ball and we are competing. Especially if we can get a new QB.

real
02-27-2007, 01:52 PM
Yep, of course the bears had everything else in place to at least make it there, it didn't start & end with Rex.

The point is that you can say that about every team in the NFL not named the Colts.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 01:52 PM
that by your definition of competing which is 8-8, in which DC was our starting QB in 2004 we were 7-9, it shouldn't be a complete stretch to say that with a little more talent, we can compete with DC at the helm then right?

Sure...you are right...but I am not just trying to compete. The only reason I use that word is because I am continuing a conversation where I responded to someone else using the word (saying we are years away from competing). And my original point was that we are not years away from competing.

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 02:01 PM
I don't remember that at all and I've followed the team as close as anyone and I'm not big on DC. That said, he was unusually festive when we lost to the 49ers and was giddy when talking about Reggie Bush as most of the coaches knew they were playing their last game. I saw it on Bob Allen's show and I mentioned it here at the time. I thought that wasn't a shining moment for DC as many men (and their families) were losing their jobs that day and would have to move their kids and relationships to other towns.

Exactly. There are many fans who think David should leave the Texans. They base it on his play, the team situation, or other reality based facts. They don't make up things. People lose credibility when they do that.

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 02:03 PM
With a little more talent the Bears could have won the superbowl right ?


Sure. However, the Bears have many more pieces in place than the Texans.

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 02:05 PM
Well what is your definition of starting NFL material. There's plenty of guys who can start but may not make plays or may give up big pays. Is your definition of a starter a guy who can shut down the guy in front of them (on defense)...or beat the guy in front of them (on offense)? Or is that your definition of a star? I think if we add a few new guys on both sides of the ball we can be competitive. Sure we don't have players at each position that you will feel completely comfortable with but most teams do.

You guys don't look at it how you should. You can't say OK let's look at the roster and see who I think is starting material. You can have players that may not be YOUR definition of starting material but have a good connection with their teamates and play decent enough to not be a liability. Players play different with different players.

Our defensive unit was playing pretty together at the end of the year. There are ALOT of guys on that unit that aren't "starting material" but that doesn't keep them from playing well enough to not be a liability. Sure there are some liabilities but understand that I am talking in general.

A couple new starters on each side of the ball and we are competing. Especially if we can get a new QB.
My definition of people who can play:

WR's who can get some sort of separation and decent rout running skills.
RB's who average more than 2.8 yards per carry
O-Lineman who don't resemble the turnstiles at Disney World.
FB's who don't fumble the football and cost you two games in a row
D-lineman who don't play Matadore with opposing RB's and who think sacks are something at a grocery store and prevent the O-line from throwing a sattle on our LB's and ride them like a horse.
OLB's who can cover a TE, stop the run, and not play patty cake with the OL.
CB's who show some sort of embarressment when they get burned 85 yards, not once, but twice. CB's who can run and not trip on there own feet would be nice too.
Safeties who understand what there assignments are.

The guys we have playing are not even close to being average. I can deal with average, average means you have a chance. I would love to be average right now but we are not even close.

After this draft we may obtain average status and then hopefully upgrade to decent the following year.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 02:05 PM
Sure. However, the Bears have many more pieces in place than the Texans.

Bingo

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 02:06 PM
Sure. However, the Bears have many more pieces in place than the Texans.

I think his point is more that it is obvious that if a team adds talent they have more of a chance to win.

The Pencil Neck
02-27-2007, 02:09 PM
a few if you mean:
RB
WR
OL
DL
OLB
CB
SS
FS
Add QB to that list.

How close were we to a winning record WITH all those holes? It's kinda crazy to say we're a couple of years away when we almost got there this past season. It's like saying we're not going to be competitive unless we're perfect. No team is perfect.

real
02-27-2007, 02:09 PM
I think his point is more that it is obvious that if a team adds talent they have more of a chance to win.

Pretty much.

If any team in the NFL has more talent...tada.....they are a better team....

NFLforher
02-27-2007, 02:09 PM
I think his point is more that it is obvious that if a team adds talent they have more of a chance to win.


Really? Ya think anybody doesn't know that?

real
02-27-2007, 02:11 PM
Really? Ya think anybody doesn't know that?

It was you all who made it seem so cut and dry...

Don't you think everyone's goal is to get more talent on their roster ?

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 02:13 PM
Really? Ya think anybody doesn't know that?

Maybe some of you should ask yourself that...you guys are the ones that don't seem to understand his point.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 02:17 PM
My definition of people who can play:

WR's who can get some sort of separation and decent rout running skills.
RB's who average more than 2.8 yards per carry
O-Lineman who don't resemble the turnstiles at Disney World.
FB's who don't fumble the football and cost you two games in a row
D-lineman who don't play Matadore with opposing RB's and who think sacks are something at a grocery store and prevent the O-line from throwing a sattle on our LB's and ride them like a horse.
OLB's who can cover a TE, stop the run, and not play patty cake with the OL.
CB's who show some sort of embarressment when they get burned 85 yards, not once, but twice. CB's who can run and not trip on there own feet would be nice too.
Safeties who understand what there assignments are.

The guys we have playing are not even close to being average. I can deal with average, average means you have a chance. I would love to be average right now but we are not even close.

After this draft we may obtain average status and then hopefully upgrade to decent the following year.

Our WRs run their routes fine...maybe having a QB who can actually see open receivers would help. Our RBs ran fine at the end of the year. Yes our D-line and O-line need help and we've drafted guys for both the d-line and o-line last year so we are obviously addressing it. Orr played bad Greenwood had a pretty good season. Yes we have a problem at both corner and safety.

You have said absolutely nothing here. Again we need to add some players on both sides of the ball and we will be able to compete. Your problem is that you think you need a star at every position to be happy with your team...you dont understand that everyteam must have roleplayers.

P.S. what is the difference in decent and average? Please tell me.

and P.S. again: If you cannot see a difference in our play in the beginning of the year and the end of the year you obviously need to look over last year again.

Honoring Earl 34
02-27-2007, 02:17 PM
For you guys who don't understand what a player with grit can do for a team ... Kirk Gibson won the National League MVP batting 290 / 25 hrs / 76 rbis. Helping the Dodgers win a World Series .

He also won a World Series with Detroit . He took Goose Gossage deep to break the Padres back in the series .

How can a guy with OK stats be such a pivotal player .... he is tough as boot leather .

real
02-27-2007, 02:17 PM
Maybe some of you should ask yourself that...you guys are the ones that don't seem to understand his point.

It's like they are making the assumption that We are the ONLY team that is going to try and get better...

Like the leauge is going to pause and wait for us or something...

Yeah, we can add more talent...But guess what....So is everyone else...

This goes back to the original statement: "If we would have had more talent around Carr in '04 we would have gone 8-8"

IMO, that statement doesn't mean much.

thunderkyss
02-27-2007, 02:19 PM
Other than AJ, Ryans, DRob, Weaver, Williams, who would you catogorize as starting NFL material?

My God even you have left David Carr off the starting material list...

why in the world do you want to change out the freak'n Free Safety if you don't even have a starting QB. & if he isn't a starting QB... why not dump him, and save $5million to get you that FS??

humbleone
02-27-2007, 02:21 PM
I factored in the cost of replacing him in another post (http://forums.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=606420&postcount=157) In the one you quoted, I was just going over when the bonus would be accelerated, and when it wouldn't.

OK thanks...that is what I thought. I enjoy your posts because of the thought that goes into them (even the ones that I disagree with btw).

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 02:43 PM
My God even you have left David Carr off the starting material list...

why in the world do you want to change out the freak'n Free Safety if you don't even have a starting QB. & if he isn't a starting QB... why not dump him, and save $5million to get you that FS??

David dissapointed me last year. He showed little to nothing in terms of competitive. How can you go to Tenn after everything that happened during the off season and not play with some sort of chip on your shoulder? He floundered in Dallas and played well below average when VY came to his house and claimed it as his own. -5 passing yards in Oakland ring a bell.

No sane person could honestly evaluate David after last years performance and say that, yes in fact, he was the answer. He didn't show anything different from his first four under Capers to his first year with Kubes.

I am not a hater either, I am a fence rider. No QB in the draft is worth a high pick, no one in FA worth spending big bucks on. I am settled with what I have and content in seeing what Carr can do with Kubes year two.

Telling you though, I am really hurting after those two Titan loses and Cowboy loss.

We need both new S. Neither of them are capable of making plays on the ball, both stink in coverage. Yea they can hit, but can they cover?

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 02:53 PM
We need both new S. Neither of them are capable of making plays on the ball, both stink in coverage. Yea they can hit, but can they cover?

See it is better to think about fixing our LIABILITIES rather than thinking about which positions need an upgrade (because they all do).

Navy_Chris
02-27-2007, 02:56 PM
Injuries.

you must be on the Carr bandwagon, too.

Mr teX
02-27-2007, 03:02 PM
See it is better to think about fixing our LIABILITIES rather than thinking about which positions need an upgrade (because they all do).

That's just it, Virtually every position is a liability except for those played by Mario, Meco, D-rob, AJ & mathis. I personally think that were OK at fullback as well with V. Leach. thats all we can truely say that we have solid on our whole team! For that reason, when looking at our team, i think it's best to look at what don't we need.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 03:09 PM
That's just it, Virtually every position is a liability except for those played by Mario, Meco, D-rob, AJ & mathis. I personally think that were OK at fullback as well with V. Leach. thats all we can truely say that we have solid on our whole team! For that reason, when looking at our team, i think it's best to look at what don't we need.

I think on offense our real liabilities are QB and OL and on defense they are S, #2 CB position, and one OLB position (SLB). Other positions can be upgraded but are not significant liabilities IMO.

disaacks3
02-27-2007, 03:27 PM
Well, I guess you haven't figured it out yet...McNair is at the end of his career....he wasn't all that impressive last year. Cue up a game sometime....it should help. Yeah, most of the NFL thinks that Young will be an upgrade long term...well, except for Houston fans.
Where did I mention LONG TERM? I'm not oblivious to VY's potential. You had mentioned that VY was the only change on a losing squad. It implies that the QB was to blame for their short-comings and not having a winning record. McNair's success in Baltimore displays what appears to be an obvious fallacy in that argument.

McNair beats VY in stats, beats VY in wins, makes the Pro-Bowl and gets his team into the playoffs. IMHO - LAST year, McNair was the better QB, period.

The relevance to THIS thread is simple - no one man can do it alone, it takes a team. I hope Carr gets to play on a balanced one sometime in his NFL career. Whether that'll be with the Texans remains to be seen.

Vinny
02-27-2007, 03:31 PM
Where did I mention LONG TERM? I'm not oblivious to VY's potential. You had mentioned that VY was the only change on a losing squad. It implies that the QB was to blame for their short-comings and not having a winning record. McNair's success in Baltimore displays what appears to be an obvious fallacy in that argument.

McNair beats VY in stats, beats VY in wins, makes the Pro-Bowl and gets his team into the playoffs. IMHO - LAST year, McNair was the better QB, period.

The relevance to THIS thread is simple - no one man can do it alone, it takes a team. I hope Carr gets to play on a balanced one sometime in his NFL career. Whether that'll be with the Texans remains to be seen.watch some of the games and its obvious to see that Young was better at keeping drives alive than McNair was last year...you can't beat someone at "stats"...you beat someone by converting 3rd downs and producing TD's. VY had 19 TD's and McNair had 17 TD's on a much better team, with a much better line, and much better wr's and TE's, with fewer starts. Last time I checked, TD's are what wins games...not stat lines.

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 03:37 PM
watch some of the games and its obvious to see that Young was better at keeping drives alive than McNair was last year...you can't beat someone at "stats"...you beat someone by converting 3rd downs and producing TD's. VY had 19 TD's and McNair had 17 TD's on a much better team, with a much better line, and much better wr's and TE's, with fewer starts. Last time I checked, TD's are what wins games...not stat lines.

I just like quoting posts that accent actual play rather than stats. :shades:

Double Barrel
02-27-2007, 03:52 PM
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal? :um:

I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.

As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.

Navy_Chris
02-27-2007, 04:23 PM
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal? :um:

I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.

As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.

Don't worry guys. I'm coming in to play QB in 2007! I've always wanted to do this. I have all the right qualifications too:

- 3 year starter at CB in the Hawaii Navy Flag Football League
- Voted "Most Likely to play CB in a flag football league" in high school

I'll lead this team to it's first EVER 8-8 season! Woo Hoo!!

TEXANRED
02-27-2007, 04:55 PM
wow, what does VY have to do to convince some folks that he's the real deal? :um:

I'm not stuck in perpetual 2006 Draft mode, so I don't cry over spilt milk. And VY wasn't even high on my 'wish list' to draft, so no homerisms here. But day-yum if he didn't come out and just prove that he belongs in the NFL. Dude is already somebody in just his first year, and I have no doubt that he'll be one to watch for many years to come.

As much as it pains me to give props to a Tennessee Titan, they got a playmaker with a winner's heart in Young. Those intangibles will always overcome physical abilty, which he's got a lot of positives in that respect, too.

First: Prove your a QB. Prove that you trust your arm more than your feet. B/C eventually, Defenses around the league will force you to throw the ball to beat them. See Vick as an example. That is one thing that Steve Young has over every other running QB, he could throw too, and the only runner who has ever won a SuperBowl.

Thats why I put more value in DLine in this years draft. If you can contain VY you will beat VY. If you put pressure on the QB you will beat the Colts. The Jags, well we own the Jags, nuff said about them.

Again this is the same argument that will never be settled. Some will say he is a playmaker, others will say he can't throw the ball. This is kinda like comparing apples to oranges.

real
02-27-2007, 04:58 PM
I guess this was about the time last year that the board got flooded with terrible football knowledge...

Double Barrel
02-27-2007, 06:19 PM
First: Prove your a QB. Prove that you trust your arm more than your feet. B/C eventually, Defenses around the league will force you to throw the ball to beat them. See Vick as an example. That is one thing that Steve Young has over every other running QB, he could throw too, and the only runner who has ever won a SuperBowl.

I'm not trying to go round and round with you, and I'm not of the VY-homer school of thought...however...

Young was drafted as a first round QB, won NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year at QB, made it to the NFL Pro Bowl in his rookie year as a QB...I'm not sure what he's supposed to prove at this point in his career. idonno:

Comparing him to HoF QBs proves what, exactly? Heck, if that's the standard, then we could compare 75% of the current QBs and say that they don't measure up. But that's doesn't mean that they're not QBs.

BTW, "running QB" so overused. John Elway and Roger Staubach were scramblers, and if they had went north/south instead of east/west, I guess they could be "running QBs", too.

Thats why I put more value in DLine in this years draft. If you can contain VY you will beat VY. If you put pressure on the QB you will beat the Colts. The Jags, well we own the Jags, nuff said about them.


That pretty much goes without saying that a dominant defensive line will counter great QBs. Mr. McNair/Kubiak specifically mentioned Manning as a primary reason to draft Mario last year.

However, the "If you can contain VY you will beat VY" is a mighty big IF. I recall a certain 3rd and 14 play in OT last year that we should have just contained VY, but we failed to do so.

Again this is the same argument that will never be settled. Some will say he is a playmaker, others will say he can't throw the ball. This is kinda like comparing apples to oranges.

I really don't understand. This debate will be settled by what he does in his career. So far, his resume is looking pretty good, and [again] this coming from a Titan hater. I've got to give credit where it's due as part of intellectual honesty.

And truth be told, the perpetual 'never-ending' argument is about our boy Carr. Five years of pro ball, and we're still "evaluating his potential". At least we now understand that we'll need a Pro Bowl offensive line, a consistent running game, 2-3 more offensive playmakers, and a dominant defense to help him out.

We've got that part of the evaluation process down pat. :secret:

TexansSeminole
02-27-2007, 06:36 PM
And truth be told, the perpetual 'never-ending' argument is about our boy Carr. Five years of pro ball, and we're still "evaluating his potential". At least we now understand that we'll need a Pro Bowl offensive line, a consistent running game, 2-3 more offensive playmakers, and a dominant defense to help him out.

We've got that part of the evaluation process down pat. :secret:

The worst and most frustrating thing about the Carr situation as it relates to our future is that while Carr continues to struggle and we continue to "evaluate his potential" he limits the growth of his teamates and every offensive player we draft while he is on the team.

HoustonFrog
02-27-2007, 06:37 PM
How they are handling this is horrible. This kind of treatment is terrible for Carr, the team and the fans.He has to know they really don't want him but there really isn't anything out there this year.Carr still has a lot of ability but when a team says they are entertaining offers but then say we have always planned to keep Carr it is a bunch of bull. Carr should demand his release or a trade and get the heck out of Houston. There is no sense in a place where you are not wanted or liked. The thing is I like him a lot as a QB but when the team is playing games about your postion on the team it's time to go. The damage has been done to Carr and his family and so there is no way to repair what they have done. For David in knowing all this will he put forth the effort to excell for a staff that really doesn't want you? I wouldn't.

I know you are a Carr supporter and I disagree with your sentiments but agree with the fact that him being here is posion. I think he is overrrated and has shown all that we need to see. There is no secret about that. However, the team is shopping him, people want him gone..another year with him, is another year wasted towards getting on with the task of starting to build towards something but all they do is sit like deer in headlights. I'm hoping they are working their tail off behind the scenes to get him sent somewhere because it is the only way this will all heal. I just got through listening to Charlie go through the 2005 draft and I'm amazed how much Charlie and the team bungles this franchise. Remember when people lastyear said it wasn't Charlies fault? Time to move forward. Please, for the love of God. Sometimes cutting the cord is the best for all.

tsip
02-27-2007, 06:57 PM
The worst and most frustrating thing about the Carr situation as it relates to our future is that while Carr continues to struggle and we continue to "evaluate his potential" he limits the growth of his teamates and every offensive player we draft while he is on the team.

Nice post! One poster even said that if everything on OF were perfect, we wouldn't even need a QB...go figure!

Kubiak was correct at the end of the year when he said scoring more points is a priority, as it has been a problem since day one with this franchise. Bringing Carr back will set this team back even further, as David 'drastically' limits what the OF can do...

However-saying that- if Kubes brings David back, it's show time!...no more holding back--force Carr's 'hand' and get the ball vertically down the field--other wise, why bring him back? We need points, no matter the QB.

MATRIX
02-27-2007, 07:23 PM
I honestly feel they will wait till NEXT year to replace him. On 610AM in Houston, while alot dislike him. Many agree that due to his cap money, and only 1 year with Gary. That they will atleast keep him this year.

And who know, with a line that will keep him standing and a second year in the same system. Carr may look really good come mid season. All he would need is to get over that attitude of thinking he only has 1 second to throw(after all thats all the line has given him most of his carrer).

I see the draft being a RB(Lynch most likely after what Peterson did...he is now top 5), one good D lineman and the rest on OL and skill players late. I very seriously doubt they are even looking to take a QB. Maybe if they cut DD they will look for a vet just in case. But, nothing more till Carr has 2yrs in the system to show his skills(or lack of).

disaacks3
02-27-2007, 07:25 PM
watch some of the games and its obvious to see that Young was better at keeping drives alive than McNair was last year...you can't beat someone at "stats"...you beat someone by converting 3rd downs and producing TD's. VY had 19 TD's and McNair had 17 TD's on a much better team, with a much better line, and much better wr's and TE's, with fewer starts. Last time I checked, TD's are what wins games...not stat lines. :sarcasm: Hmm, last time I checked, scoring more points than the OTHER team is what wins games.

It's relevant sarcasm because the Titans defense won several of those games without much help from the QB position.

I've just seen it argued here that it's W's that count, not stats and the simple matter is that McNair delivered more of them to the Ravens than VY did the Titans. McNair wasn't as "washed-up" as the Titans thought and it was probably a mistake to get rid of him that early (much like the Texans did with Aaron Glenn). It's especially galling that the McNair was ALREADY mentoring VY and you couldn't have had a better groundwork in place for an easier transition.

To bring up the "much better line" argument in a thread about Carr is near blasphemous. When does DC get his chance to go 13-3 behind a good line? Name one team in the league who has started more O-Line configurations than the Texans in the last 5 years. I doubt there were any, but if so, how does THEIR QB compare vs. Carr?

HOOK'EM
02-27-2007, 08:02 PM
I hope if we do keep him, we at least restructure his contract. He is WAY overpaid!