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View Full Version : Would a new QB really make a difference.


TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 06:34 PM
Would a new QB, Plummer, Quinn, Kolb etc be able to come in and make a difference if there are no significant changes made to our O-Line or any upgrades to our recieveing core WR, TE etc ? I mean sure Carr has had some bad years but is it all his fault ???

dirty steve
02-23-2007, 06:37 PM
Would a new QB, Plummer, Quinn, Kolb etc be able to come in and make a difference if there are no significant changes made to our O-Line or any upgrades to our recieveing core WR, TE etc ? I mean sure Carr has had some bad years but is it all his fault ???
i think it would give us at least a new perspective. carr, while not the root of everything that has gone wrong with this franchise, surely has to carry some of the blame. i think the team would be good to get due compensation and cut ties. hopefully acquire plummer and at some point draft a QB to take over in a couple of years.

Double Barrel
02-23-2007, 06:41 PM
The Texans do not have the level of talent that would allow David Carr to succeed. Even his most diehard supporters agree with this point. If we are unable to field a consistent running game, a Pro Bowl offensive line, and a dominant defense, Carr will continue to struggle. It will probably be another two years before we can field that kind of team, too.

So adding a QB that can do more with less would definitely help this team, although it must be said that we probably won't find that QB in this year's FA market or draft.

edo783
02-23-2007, 06:45 PM
That would be require a June Allison type answer.........it "Depends". Do we have a solid O-line, RB and scheme/game plan. If no, then no.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 06:48 PM
The Texans do not have the level of talent that would allow David Carr to succeed. Even his most diehard supporters agree with this point. If we are unable to field a consistent running game, a Pro Bowl offensive line, and a dominant defense, Carr will continue to struggle. It will probably be another two years before we can field that kind of team, too.

So adding a QB that can do more with less would definitely help this team, although it must be said that we probably won't find that QB in this year's FA market or draft.

thats what i'm saying, so should we just stick with Carr for now and try to make other aspects of the team better for now, instead of wasting money on a FA QB who still wont succedd for another 2 years ???

SESupergenius
02-23-2007, 06:54 PM
I said it would be the same given that the assumption is that we have not increased the talent field anywhere on the offense.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 06:58 PM
Well wasnt Carr doing good until we started getting injuries along the O-Line, like after Flanagan got hurt ?

New_Texans
02-23-2007, 07:04 PM
no, a new o-line would though, how bout you make that poll.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 07:05 PM
no, a new o-line would though, how bout you make that poll.

well its obvious a better o-line would, but it could also make carr better too.

Honoring Earl 34
02-23-2007, 07:58 PM
That would be require a June Allison type answer.........it "Depends". Do we have a solid O-line, RB and scheme/game plan. If no, then no.

You are dating yourself .

Honoring Earl 34
02-23-2007, 08:00 PM
I will tell you something that I'm 100% sure of .

There is only one way of finding out what a new QB can do . We already know what the old QB can do .

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 08:04 PM
Would a new QB, Plummer, Quinn, Kolb etc be able to come in and make a difference if there are no significant changes made to our O-Line or any upgrades to our recieveing core WR, TE etc ? I mean sure Carr has had some bad years but is it all his fault ???

I think a new QB would make a big difference. Call me crazy, but I don't think our current line WANTS to block for David Carr, nor do they want him in Houston still. Our guys show much more heart when they're out there blocking for Sage.

The only o-lineman i've ever heard stick up for DC is Steve McKinney...that's it! I personally think Sage should start in 07 and Kubiak should look for a young QB to groom in 08.

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 08:08 PM
A new QB would make a marginal difference at best. Until, the Texans fix their O-Line the poor offensive performances will continue. I know casual fans don't understand this, but it takes more than QB's, RB's, and WR's to have an effective offense.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 08:10 PM
I think a new QB would make a big difference. Call me crazy, but I don't think our current line WANTS to block for David Carr, nor do they want him in Houston still. Our guys show much more heart when they're out there blocking for Sage.

The only o-lineman i've ever heard stick up for DC is Steve McKinney...that's it! I personally think Sage should start in 07 and Kubiak should look for a young QB to groom in 08.

HAHA come on now do you think they are not giving their all for david carr, they can lose their jobs just as easy as he can if they dont perform well.

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 08:12 PM
HAHA come on now do you think they are not giving their all for david carr, they can lose their jobs just as easy as he can if they dont perform well.

For whatever reason, DC has the Texans' brass wrapped around his finger. EVERYTHING's always someone else's fault. It's never Carr's. I'm sick of it.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 08:14 PM
For whatever reason, DC has the Texans' brass wrapped around his finger. EVERYTHING's always someone else's fault. It's never Carr's. I'm sick of it.

Never CARRS fault, than what the hell are we all talking about. Hmmm the media says its all carrs fault, the Fo is obviously looking around for a new QB, and all the fans. Come on now give me a break, saying its always some elses fault, if thats the case why dont we ever hear about how awful our O-Line is anymore ? Why dont people talk about it ?

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 08:17 PM
Never CARRS fault, than what the hell are we all talking about. Hmmm the media says its all carrs fault, the Fo is obviously looking around for a new QB, and all the fans. Come on now give me a break, saying its always some elses fault, if thats the case why dont we ever hear about how awful our O-Line is anymore ? Why dont people talk about it ?

because the o-line isn't the 'sexy' part of a football team people want to talk about. fans want playmakers. fans want explosion. but they don't realize that the o-line makes all that happen. Kubiak just said on NFL Network that it's "his job to make Carr better." That doesn't sound like a guy who's eager to get rid of him. I agree that our o-line needs serious help, but for some reason, Bob McNair's not willing to concentrate on that position.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 08:20 PM
because the o-line isn't the 'sexy' part of a football team people want to talk about. fans want playmakers. fans want explosion. but they don't realize that the o-line makes all that happen. Kubiak just said on NFL Network that it's "his job to make Carr better." That doesn't sound like a guy who's eager to get rid of him. I agree that our o-line needs serious help, but for some reason, Bob McNair's not willing to concentrate on that position.

yes i agree, but all i'm saying is that there is alot of pressure and blame on Carr, so i dont see how you can say, everyone else is getting blamed except him.

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 08:28 PM
yes i agree, but all i'm saying is that there is alot of pressure and blame on Carr, so i dont see how you can say, everyone else is getting blamed except him.

i'm just tired of seeing everyone holding carr's hand and listening to Kubiak say "aww...it's my fault he's not playing well." i'm not saying everyone else is getting blamed, i mean it seems to me like Carr always gets a free pass on his performance.

I think it's a matter of pride with Bob McNair. He just doesn't want to come out and admit that he made a mistake in 2002. agree??

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 08:33 PM
i'm just tired of seeing everyone holding carr's hand and listening to Kubiak say "aww...it's my fault he's not playing well." i'm not saying everyone else is getting blamed, i mean it seems to me like Carr always gets a free pass on his performance.

I think it's a matter of pride with Bob McNair. He just doesn't want to come out and admit that he made a mistake in 2002. agree??

actually i wont say he made a mistake UNTIL carr has a fair shot, i mean he came into a new team who had nothing to build on, was sacked a record amount of times in 02. Hasnt had the luxury of going to a team with a good foundation like a lot of QBs who are drafted. He has never REALLY had good protection. So in 5 years i'll let ya know whether or not i think McNair made a mistake or not.

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 08:36 PM
4 words: SAGE ROSENFELS, TENNESSEE GAME...

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 08:50 PM
4 words: SAGE ROSENFELS, TENNESSEE GAME...

I think one game hardly makes him starter material. Otherwise he woulda been the starter the following week after that good performance, but the Staff didnt even give him another try.

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 09:24 PM
actually i wont say he made a mistake UNTIL carr has a fair shot, i mean he came into a new team who had nothing to build on, was sacked a record amount of times in 02. Hasnt had the luxury of going to a team with a good foundation like a lot of QBs who are drafted. He has never REALLY had good protection. So in 5 years i'll let ya know whether or not i think McNair made a mistake or not.

Actually, McNair did make a mistake in hiring Capers and Casserly to run the Texans, and they in turn made the mistake of drafting a QB first and never protecting him with a decent O-Line. Jimmy Johnson could field a Super Bowl team with the picks those numb nuts wasted.

kiwitexansfan
02-23-2007, 09:30 PM
I feel that there is no one available to us at the moment who would be a guaranteed upgrade to Carr.

So my answer is there would be no chance of a positive difference. Things could get worse.

kiwitexansfan
02-23-2007, 09:31 PM
I think one game hardly makes him starter material. Otherwise he woulda been the starter the following week after that good performance, but the Staff didnt even give him another try.

Truer words never been spoken. Well not on this board perhaps.

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 09:35 PM
actually i wont say he made a mistake UNTIL carr has a fair shot, i mean he came into a new team who had nothing to build on, was sacked a record amount of times in 02. Hasnt had the luxury of going to a team with a good foundation like a lot of QBs who are drafted. He has never REALLY had good protection. So in 5 years i'll let ya know whether or not i think McNair made a mistake or not.

That shouldn't be the issue here. We don't have time to worry about David Carr's development at this point. It's ALREADY been 5 years. This team needs to move forward RIGHT NOW and they can't do that with David Carr at the helm. He is what he is BECAUSE of his first 4 years under Dom Capers. Kubiak can't change that. No matter how good he is or what he does. The damage has already been done.

Also, opposing defenses KNOW how David Carr is. They know what to expect. And that is someone who's afraid to stand in the pocket, someone who ONLY looks at Andre Johnson...Eric WHO????

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 09:37 PM
That shouldn't be the issue here. We don't have time to worry about David Carr's development at this point. It's ALREADY been 5 years. This team needs to move forward RIGHT NOW and they can't do that with David Carr at the helm. He is what he is BECAUSE of his first 4 years under Dom Capers. Kubiak can't change that. No matter how good he is or what he does. The damage has already been done.

Also, opposing defenses KNOW how David Carr is. They know what to expect. And that is someone who's afraid to stand in the pocket, someone who ONLY looks at Andre Johnson...Eric WHO????

EXACTLY afraid to stand in the pocket, so just imagine some poor soul playing for us that isnt afraid to stand in the pocket, we're talking mutilation. My point is no QB is gonna be able to do much with the O-Line problems we have !

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 09:40 PM
EXACTLY afraid to stand in the pocket, so just imagine some poor soul playing for us that isnt afraid to stand in the pocket, we're talking mutilation. My point is no QB is gonna be able to do much with the O-Line problems we have !


Take a look at my mock drat I have posted in the Draft discussions. I think we should take Levi Brown at #8 (can't count on Spencer being his old self). I also think that with additions of some playmakers on offense, Sage Rosenfels would be a perfect fit as our starting QB. As I said before, I don't think David is salvageable.

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 09:40 PM
That shouldn't be the issue here. We don't have time to worry about David Carr's development at this point. It's ALREADY been 5 years. This team needs to move forward RIGHT NOW and they can't do that with David Carr at the helm. He is what he is BECAUSE of his first 4 years under Dom Capers. Kubiak can't change that. No matter how good he is or what he does. The damage has already been done.

Also, opposing defenses KNOW how David Carr is. They know what to expect. And that is someone who's afraid to stand in the pocket, someone who ONLY looks at Andre Johnson...Eric WHO????

More likely it is opposing defenders know what a terrible O-Line is, and rightfully attack it like sharks with blood in the water.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 09:44 PM
Take a look at my mock drat I have posted in the Draft discussions. I think we should take Levi Brown at #8 (can't count on Spencer being his old self). I also think that with additions of some playmakers on offense, Sage Rosenfels would be a perfect fit as our starting QB. As I said before, I don't think David is salvageable.

But i dont think we count on a guy who has been a back up his whole career to come in and be our starter. I mean dont you think theres a reason that no teams have made him a starter yet ?

Heath Shuler
02-23-2007, 09:46 PM
Would a new QB, Plummer, Quinn, Kolb etc be able to come in and make a difference if there are no significant changes made to our O-Line or any upgrades to our recieveing core WR, TE etc ? I mean sure Carr has had some bad years but is it all his fault ???

I believe that the QB position is generally the most important position on the field. That is why they are usually the highest paid person on the field.

In regards to your question about it being ALL Carrís fault: football is a team sport so anyone who blames everything on one person is clearly misguided.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 09:47 PM
I believe that the QB position is generally the most important position on the field. That is why they are usually the highest paid person on the field.

In regards to your question about it being ALL Carrís fault: football is a team sport so anyone who blames everything on one person is clearly misguided.

Thank you thats the kinda answer i was looking for !

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 09:55 PM
I think one game hardly makes him starter material. Otherwise he woulda been the starter the following week after that good performance, but the Staff didnt even give him another try.

Well of course Kubiak was'nt going to bench the "FRANCHISE" QB for the rest of the year. It was too early in the year to bench him. How would he look after saying that it was his job to make Carr the best QB he can be. There is politics in the NFL too. Kubiak gave him his job back and Carr made nothing of the rest of his starts. Rosenfels would of relieved Carr during the Raider game, but of course he was hurt. Rosenfels would of probably been the starter for the last quarter of the season, but we will never know.

I dont hate Carr, but the guy is just has to go. I want to see him get a shot somewhere else, for his sake. Carr, success, and Houston are three words that will never go together. I wish him the best where ever he goes. He is finished in Houston IMO...

Texian
02-23-2007, 10:01 PM
Well wasnt Carr doing good until we started getting injuries along the O-Line, like after Flanagan got hurt ?

and Spencer and Wiegart went out????? Look what happened to pre season superbowl favorites, Carolina Panthers, they lost their OC and LOT, went in the tank and now they are want to jettison Delhomme. Wher have I heard that knuckleheads???

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 10:04 PM
and Spencer and Wiegart went out????? Look what happened to pre season superbowl favorites, Carolina Panthers, they lost their OC and LOT, went in the tank and now they are want to jettison Delhomme. Wher have I heard that knuckleheads???

Honestly, I want you to name every QB that you would take over Delhomme?...

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 10:07 PM
But i dont think we count on a guy who has been a back up his whole career to come in and be our starter. I mean dont you think theres a reason that no teams have made him a starter yet ?

That doesn't mean a thing. I think it's quite possible that with Gary's help, he could become a good starting QB in this league. I mean, Gary thinks Ron Dayne's resurrected his career. The same can be said for Sage.

The Pencil Neck
02-23-2007, 10:07 PM
4 words: SAGE ROSENFELS, TENNESSEE GAME...

5 more words: DAVID CARR, FIRST INDY GAME.

Both guys scored 3 TDs against prevent defenses. That doesn't give me any real warm and fuzzy. I don't think Carr is our guy and although I think that Sage has looked more comfortable in the pocket, we fans really haven't seen enough of Sage to say for sure. That one game against the Titans is not sufficient proof.

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 10:09 PM
5 more words: DAVID CARR, FIRST INDY GAME.

Both guys scored 3 TDs against prevent defenses. That doesn't give me any real warm and fuzzy. I don't think Carr is our guy and although I think that Sage has looked more comfortable in the pocket, we fans really haven't seen enough of Sage to say for sure. That one game against the Titans is not sufficient proof.

The offense responds to Sage more than they do David. Sage acts like a leader, he looks at all of his receivers, he communicates well with them. David doesn't do that.

The decision to stay with David is purely driven by ego. The organization isn't willing to admit they made a bad decision 5 years ago. Plain and simple.

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 10:10 PM
5 more words: DAVID CARR, FIRST INDY GAME.

Both guys scored 3 TDs against prevent defenses. That doesn't give me any real warm and fuzzy. I don't think Carr is our guy and although I think that Sage has looked more comfortable in the pocket, we fans really haven't seen enough of Sage to say for sure. That one game against the Titans is not sufficient proof.

Thats the thing about it. We will never know because of his injury (rosenfels)....

The Pencil Neck
02-23-2007, 10:10 PM
EXACTLY afraid to stand in the pocket, so just imagine some poor soul playing for us that isnt afraid to stand in the pocket, we're talking mutilation. My point is no QB is gonna be able to do much with the O-Line problems we have !

Our o-line was NOT that bad last year. Many of the sacks given up can be laid at the feet of Carr's skittishness and indecision.

And that's why I think Carr needs to go. I don't think he can be comfortable in the pocket anymore regardless of whether he's going to get hit or not. I don't think it matters how good our line is or how much time our line gives to Carr. I think it's in his head. Hopefully, if he's able to go somewhere else, he'll be able to overcome that lack of confidence.

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 10:11 PM
and Spencer and Wiegart went out????? Look what happened to pre season superbowl favorites, Carolina Panthers, they lost their OC and LOT, went in the tank and now they are want to jettison Delhomme. Wher have I heard that knuckleheads???

100% Correct. Typical of casual football fans.

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 10:12 PM
The offense responds to Sage more than they do David. Sage acts like a leader, he looks at all of his receivers, he communicates well with them. David doesn't do that.

The decision to stay with David is purely driven by ego. The organization isn't willing to admit they made a bad decision 5 years ago. Plain and simple.

Exactly, he even outplayed Carr in the pre-season. YES, I KNOW IT WAS THE PRE-SEASON...:aikido:

Navy_Chris
02-23-2007, 10:14 PM
Exactly, he even outplayed Carr in the pre-season. YES, I KNOW IT WAS THE PRE-SEASON...:aikido:

I'm beginning to think I'm speaking German when I talk about David. Trust me, this guy is not leading us to the playoffs...EVER!

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 10:16 PM
Exactly, he even outplayed Carr in the pre-season. YES, I KNOW IT WAS THE PRE-SEASON...:aikido:

first of all he played against 2nd and third stringers, second you cant base the direction of this franchise on one game alone. Come on now, i promise you we could be way worse off at QB than we are now !

thunderkyss
02-23-2007, 10:20 PM
and Spencer and Wiegart went out????? Look what happened to pre season superbowl favorites, Carolina Panthers, they lost their OC and LOT, went in the tank and now they are want to jettison Delhomme. Wher have I heard that knuckleheads???

Weigart helped our running game, not our passing game. He was not blocking better than Winston at any point in the season. Loosing him hurt our run game more than our pass protection.

Salaam, didn't give up a sack to the Eagles, the Colts, the Skins, only one to Jason Taylor(after getting hurt, sitting out a few plays, and Taylor running around him on the first play Salaam came back off the trainers table), and not one sack to Dallas.

He got hurt against Tennessee early in the game, and never really recovered in that game against Tennessee. Laboy got nothing in the second Titans game, and Freeney also didn't get our QB in our second game against Indy.

I'm not saying Salaam should be a starter or anything, but of the FAs we've brought in to play the position, I think Salaam has been the best so far(not saying a lot considering the guys we've brought in). But we have no idea if Spencer would have played any better or worse than Ephraim.

Our protection issues, other than picking up the blitz, was from the Center to the right tackle. Weary played much better than McKinney as a guard, and I believe he's earned that spot. McKinney actually played better than Flanagan & Hogdon as a Center. He is the best Center on our team........... so far.

Winston wasn't much better than Weigart in pass pro, but he's young, and we should expect him to get better with expereince. Weigart is as good as he's going to get.

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 10:22 PM
first of all he played against 2nd and third stringers, second you cant base the direction of this franchise on one game alone. Come on now, i promise you we could be way worse off at QB than we are now !

Honestly, tell me at what point during the season did Carr show you he can lead this team to the promise land?

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 10:25 PM
Honestly, tell me at what point during the season did Carr show you he can lead this team to the promise land?

i think the 2004 season when he had some of the best protection, thats when. He had confidence in his o-line and made good decesions ! At what POINT in sages career did you think he could lead the texans to the promise land ???

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 10:25 PM
Trap Star, why do I suspect that if you were the Texans Offensive Coordinator, then your offensive scheme would be puff, puff, pass? :tease:

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 10:32 PM
Weigart helped our running game...

which in turn helps the passing game by having a legitimate running threat.

Salaam, didn't give up a sack to the Eagles, the Colts, the Skins, only one to Jason Taylor(after getting hurt, sitting out a few plays, and Taylor running around him on the first play Salaam came back off the trainers table), and not one sack to Dallas.

Sack numbers don't tell the whole tale of the amount of pressure put onto the QB.

edo783
02-23-2007, 10:37 PM
You are dating yourself .

Yeah, pretty much the only way I get a date these days.:shades:

Trap_Star
02-23-2007, 10:38 PM
i think the 2004 season when he had some of the best protection, thats when. He had confidence in his o-line and made good decesions ! At what POINT in sages career did you think he could lead the texans to the promise land ???

In his LIMITED opportunity with the SAME o-line, the SAME WRs, and the SAME backfield he showed he could move the offence efficiently up the field. Im not saying Sage will win us a superbowl, im saying give him or who ever we bring in a shot. We cant do worse than what we have already seen. Lets give Carr an opportunity to succed somewhere else where there's an established o-line. Why let him rot here in Houston? Let him flourishe somewhere else....

thunderkyss
02-23-2007, 10:51 PM
5 more words: DAVID CARR, FIRST INDY GAME.

Both guys scored 3 TDs against prevent defenses. That doesn't give me any real warm and fuzzy. I don't think Carr is our guy and although I think that Sage has looked more comfortable in the pocket, we fans really haven't seen enough of Sage to say for sure. That one game against the Titans is not sufficient proof.

We were down 30-3(that's 27points) before the start of the 4th Qtr, before David scored his first TD. Indy was definitely in a prevent defense in the forth.

Sage came into the game 14-3 Tennessee. He threw an interception and we were down 21-3(18 points) when Sage threw his first TD, with 1:26 left in the third.

10:52 remaining in the 4th, the score is 28-10.
7:40 remaining, the score is 28-16
2:00 remaining, the score is 28-22

2:00 remaining in the Indy game, we were down 43-17
The game ended 43-24(19 points)

there was a big difference in the Indy game & the first Tennessee game. We never had a shot in Indy.

I don't know if Sage is going to be a good QB, or even decent. But I do not believe David improves our chance of winning on Sunday.

& I have no problem with the idea that we need to put a better team around David to be able to get a good honest evaluation of David. But at the same time, I think we need to put someone else under center to get a good honest evaluation of our offense.

There is no way these guys can be as bad as they look.

Start Sage in '07, if he bombs, David can be a hero, come in, and save our season.

But If we start looking like an NFL team... with Sage...

we the fans win either way.

HoustonFrog
02-23-2007, 11:02 PM
What good is a new QB?

Ask the Cowboys if Staubach was worth replacing or splitting time in a competition with Morton..........or if Romo was worth going from a career third stringer to replacing Bledsoe.....

Or if Brady was worth leaving in over a good guy like Bledsoe who actually won games

Or if VY replacing a QB that had won was worth it.....

Or if Leinart replacing a SB QB was worth it....

Or if an arena league QB...Warner replacing and supplanting an injured QB was good...

Or if ......you get the message...the history of the league is littered with guys who got replaced..were studs..or who failed despite their skills, etc but who couldn't succeed. Why are we so protective and willing to spend so much money on 1 man and at the same time continue to add more money in areas just to make the highly paid guy get better than "average?" It is something that never adds up. Have people forgotten football common sense?

BattleRedToro
02-23-2007, 11:20 PM
Have people forgotten football common sense?

I haven't forgotten football common sense, and it tells me the Texan's O-Line sucks. I don't have to read some statline to come to that conclusion. I can just watch the games in horror as the most basic 4 man rushes consistently come free into the backfield to disrupt the play. Football common sense tells me to make drafting a solid O-Line the top priority. I'll worry about the icing on the cake after I have a freakin' cake.

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 11:54 PM
What good is a new QB?

Ask the Cowboys if Staubach was worth replacing or splitting time in a competition with Morton..........or if Romo was worth going from a career third stringer to replacing Bledsoe.....

Or if Brady was worth leaving in over a good guy like Bledsoe who actually won games

Or if VY replacing a QB that had won was worth it.....

Or if Leinart replacing a SB QB was worth it....

Or if an arena league QB...Warner replacing and supplanting an injured QB was good...

Or if ......you get the message...the history of the league is littered with guys who got replaced..were studs..or who failed despite their skills, etc but who couldn't succeed. Why are we so protective and willing to spend so much money on 1 man and at the same time continue to add more money in areas just to make the highly paid guy get better than "average?" It is something that never adds up. Have people forgotten football common sense?

But that dont mean you replace a starting QB with anyone thinking he will be the next tom brady !

HoustonFrog
02-23-2007, 11:57 PM
But that dont mean you replace a starting QB with anyone thinking he will be the next tom brady !

No, but you also don't stand pat when what you have isn't working. Plus people are really frogetting what this does to the player in question, the team, the sity and the fans. At some point the hope that both can move on and be successful outweighs putting a square peg in a round hole. Moving Carr doesn't mean that one person has to lose. The fact of the matter is that many people who step in have the skills that the previous person was missing. 5 years and poeple still want try and get "more" people to make one player better than average.

thunderkyss
02-23-2007, 11:59 PM
But that dont mean you replace a starting QB with anyone thinking he will be the next tom brady !

Your definition of "starting QB" is kind of broad...

TexansTrueFan
02-23-2007, 11:59 PM
No, but you also don't stand put when what you have isn't working. The fact of the matter is that many people who step in have the skills that the previous person was missing. 5 years and poeple still want try and get "more" people to make one player better than average.

No we get more players to make the team better, i'm not saying stay with Carr forever, but atleast until we fix or O-line problems, otherwise we are just gonna waste another QBs talent by getting him shell shocked as well.

QB75
02-24-2007, 12:01 AM
For whatever reason, DC has the Texans' brass wrapped around his finger. EVERYTHING's always someone else's fault. It's never Carr's. I'm sick of it.

The problem is that too many people think it's ALWAYS Carr's fault. There are so many problems that team performance can't be pinned on any one player. Nevertheless, the whining always seems to focus on one guy.

HoustonFrog
02-24-2007, 12:20 AM
No we get more players to make the team better, i'm not saying stay with Carr forever, but atleast until we fix or O-line problems, otherwise we are just gonna waste another QBs talent by getting him shell shocked as well.

Not true at all!!While you can't function with a horrible line many QBs make due these days with a decent line. If you watch QB play around the league there are many guys hwo make their lines look better. The Cowboys this year were getting beat and the O-line was taking a beating with Bledsoe. When Romo stepped in and they were 5-1, the running game picked up and the medi aweren't talking about the line. Watch the Patriots or any good team. The line isn't perfect but if you watch the QB make one extra side step left, etc you see a d-lineman miss him or hands slide off. It is the difference between extra seconds. There is no such thing as a perfect bubble for a game.

TexansTrueFan
02-24-2007, 12:22 AM
Not true at all!!While you can't function with a horrible line many QBs make due these days with a decent line. If you watch QB play around the league there are many guys hwo make their lines look better. The Cowboys this year were getting beat and the O-line was taking a beating with Bledsoe. When Romo stepped in and they were 5-1, the running game picked up and the medi aweren't talking about the line. Watch the Patriots or any good team. The line isn't perfect but if you watch the QB make one extra side step left, etc you see a d-lineman miss him or hands slide off. It is the difference between extra seconds. There is no such thing as a perfect bubble for a game.

yeah the running game picked up, but i dont think it was romo who was blocking for the RB. it was infact the O-Line, plus we're talking pass protection !

HoustonFrog
02-24-2007, 12:22 AM
The problem is that too many people think it's ALWAYS Carr's fault. There are so many problems that team performance can't be pinned on any one player. Nevertheless, the whining always seems to focus on one guy.

No, the whining focuses on what the one guy DOESN'T have. The Carr supporters fail to admit it but their argument is more about how we should FOCUS on 10 guys to make an average one better and not how the highest paid guys should be making those around him better..

HoustonFrog
02-24-2007, 12:24 AM
yeah the running game picked up, but i dont think it was romo who was blocking for the RB. it was infact the O-Line, plus we're talking pass protection !

Seriously, how does that make sense?The running game was floundering. The QB was getting jacked. Then a QB change is made...a guy who could work in the pocket and the running game picked up and the line's inability to take care of the QB was less pronounced.. That isn't coincidence. Your arguments are going no where.

thunderkyss
02-24-2007, 12:53 AM
Seriously, how does that make sense?The running game was floundering. The QB was getting jacked. Then a QB change is made...a guy who could work in the pocket and the running game picked up and the line's inability to take care of the QB was less pronounced.. That isn't coincidence. Your arguments are going no where.

I think you're mixing Dallas' & Tennessee's season together. Dallas never had any problem running the ball. & in all fairness, Bledsoe's problem wasn't that he didn't have enough time. He made bad decisions, and held the ball too long. Not in the same way that David gets ready to throw, but then pulls it back down. Bledsoe will wait for his reciever to get Wide the F open before he'd think about throwing the Ball.

Tennessee couldn't run the ball, until Vince came into the game.

But then, they only ran on the poor run defenses.

NATHANHALE
02-24-2007, 03:17 AM
Exactly, he even outplayed Carr in the pre-season. YES, I KNOW IT WAS THE PRE-SEASON...:aikido:

...even Porter out played Carr in pre-season but-you've got to admit-Carr's consistent...same results in pre-season/season.

I'm still amazed that Carr has started every single game when healthy!

NATHANHALE
02-24-2007, 03:20 AM
first of all he played against 2nd and third stringers, second you cant base the direction of this franchise on one game alone. Come on now, i promise you we could be way worse off at QB than we are now !

I promise you we could be a lot better than worse w/o Carr...you'll see. Are you going to give the new QB more than a half of decade to find himself?

NATHANHALE
02-24-2007, 03:33 AM
i think the 2004 season when he had some of the best protection, thats when. He had confidence in his o-line and made good decesions ! At what POINT in sages career did you think he could lead the texans to the promise land ???

...some of your post make no sense. Carr vs Sage comparison? Carr started 16 games last year-Sage 0! Wow, that's a realistic comparison...notttttttttttt

2004 was 3 yrs ago-duh. Carr put up decent #'s the 1st half but not the 2nd and ended the year with the Browns game. Remember?

I don't know why in the world Capers and Kubiak refuse to start someone besides Carr-maybe their worried about David's mind set.

HoustonFrog
02-24-2007, 09:39 AM
I think you're mixing Dallas' & Tennessee's season together. Dallas never had any problem running the ball. & in all fairness, Bledsoe's problem wasn't that he didn't have enough time. He made bad decisions, and held the ball too long. Not in the same way that David gets ready to throw, but then pulls it back down. Bledsoe will wait for his reciever to get Wide the F open before he'd think about throwing the Ball.

Tennessee couldn't run the ball, until Vince came into the game.

But then, they only ran on the poor run defenses.

TK, I see what you are saying but Dallas' O-line was getting crucified in the media the beginning of the season. The running game was not at the point that they thought it should be. I just know family up there would complain about the reports. Maybe it wasn't as bad as Tenn but Romo definitely made alot of the whining disappear and Barber broke out alot more. Both examples still illustrate..IMHO...what a different QB can do. If I wanted to make a quick point I'd bring up Rosenfels again after Dave was benched. He worked the pocket alot more effectively in one of his stints.

BattleRedToro
02-24-2007, 10:19 AM
Maybe it wasn't as bad as Tenn but Romo definitely made alot of the whining disappear...

This is where you are wrong the adjustment that the coaching staff made led to winning which ultimately made the whining disappear. Of course the most noticable is the changing of QB's and therefore the casual fan will attribute all of the team's new found success to the QB much in the same way "Pacman" Jones's performances were ignored to the benefit of Vince Young's image as the reason for the Titans's wins.


If I wanted to make a quick point I'd bring up Rosenfels again after Dave was benched. He worked the pocket alot more effectively in one of his stints.

Yes he did, and if Kubiak et al think that he should be the QB that would be find by me, but his ability to work the pocket bettter is only going to marginally improve the team. The way to improve the team is fix where it is broken and that starts with the O-Line. What irritates me is that when people suggest fixing the O-Line, your response is alot of QB's don't play behind a perfect O-Line. Well, noone is asking for a perfect O-Line we are asking for one that doesn't suck. There were only a few O-Lines this year that were as bad as the Texans's O-line was. Arizona and Oakland for sure and maybe a few others as well.

Oakland has the great benefit of not having to plug many holes on their Defensive side of the ball and could even ignore that side in the draft if they wanted to in order to concentrate on fixing their terrible offense, which no surprise starts with a terrible O-Line. Much to the surprise of many on this board I would suggest that they don't need to pick a QB with the top pick. They could address their QB needs in FA much like they have in the past. If I were the Raiders I would shop the 1st pick especially to Arizona. I'm sure that the Raiders are tentative about picking Joe Thomas after the way that Robert Gallery has performed. I can understand that and I have some of the same concerns. I feel more comfortable with Levi Brown. As for Gallery, he should be play RT or even G. If the Raiders were to shop him, I would certainly champion the idea of the Texans acquiring him. I think Sherman and the O-Line coach could salvage his career. Back to the Raiders, if they were able to trade down with the Cardinals, they could then pick Brown, whom I think is better than Thomas, and have the added benefit of whatever the Cardinlas throw in to complete the trade, ie players and/or picks.

afcman
02-24-2007, 10:46 AM
Owner, front office/Gm/Coach, and QB. The best teams have those areas covered.

Charter PSL Fan
02-24-2007, 11:57 AM
I don't know why in the world Capers and Kubiak refuse to start someone besides Carr-maybe their worried about David's mind set.

Possibly because they know much more about football than you or I do??

Wharton
02-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Would a new QB, Plummer, Quinn, Kolb etc be able to come in and make a difference if there are no significant changes made to our O-Line or any upgrades to our recieveing core WR, TE etc ? I mean sure Carr has had some bad years but is it ALL his fault ???What a crock of ****!

As far as I know, nobody has ever said it was ALL David's fault. But if you canít get consistent play from the QB position, the rest of your team has to be so overwhelmingly good that they take up the slack for the poor QB play.

Think about the teams that consistently win with poor QB play. How many are there? Two that I can think of:

Chicago - #3 Defense in the NFL, Two headed monster running attack, and the best special team man in the business last year. Chicago wouldn't have made it anywhere near the SB if they played in the AFC.

Ravens - #1 Defense in the NFL, Big running attack and better then average special teams.

There's an old saying about Favre "as Brett goes, so go the Packers" but the truth is you could say that about any team. As the QB goes, so goes that teamís fate.

In our last 3 wins against Oakland, Indy and Cleveland, Carr had 14, 23, & 15 total passing attempts in those games with QB rating of 56, 104, & 48. Carr had 1 TD pass, 1 INT, was sacked 6 times and lost 3 fumbles. What does this tell you? It tells me we won in spite of Davidís poor play and not because of anything he did.

If we are going to keep this man as our QB, our defense will have to go from being ranked 25 to at least a top 5. And that wonít guarantee us a playoff football team because 2 (Miami, Jacksonville) of the top 5 defenses last season didnít make the playoffs. Why didnít they make the playoffs? Poor QB play!

How anybody can still continue to support David as the Texans QB is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

HoustonFrog
02-24-2007, 01:42 PM
What a crock of ****!

As far as I know, nobody has ever said it was ALL David's fault. But if you can’t get consistent play from the QB position, the rest of your team has to be so overwhelmingly good that they take up the slack for the poor QB play.

Think about the teams that consistently win with poor QB play. How many are there? Two that I can think of:

Chicago - #3 Defense in the NFL, Two headed monster running attack, and the best special team man in the business last year. Chicago wouldn't have made it anywhere near the SB if they played in the AFC.

Ravens - #1 Defense in the NFL, Big running attack and better then average special teams.

There's an old saying about Favre "as Brett goes, so go the Packers" but the truth is you could say that about any team. As the QB goes, so goes that team’s fate.

In our last 3 wins against Oakland, Indy and Cleveland, Carr had 14, 23, & 15 total passing attempts in those games with QB rating of 56, 104, & 48. Carr had 1 TD pass, 1 INT, was sacked 6 times and lost 3 fumbles. What does this tell you? It tells me we won in spite of David’s poor play and not because of anything he did.

If we are going to keep this man as our QB, our defense will have to go from being ranked 25 to at least a top 5. And that won’t guarantee us a playoff football team because 2 (Miami, Jacksonville) of the top 5 defenses last season didn’t make the playoffs. Why didn’t they make the playoffs? Poor QB play!

How anybody can still continue to support David as the Texans QB is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

Thanks for spelling out what many of us have been saying ad naseum. There seems to be this uprising of.."if we keep an average guy we can just make the rest of the team great" when in reality that whole concept is the exception, not the rule in the NFL. When you give a guy 8 mil he is the one that is supposed to be making others better. You shouldn't have to put him in a perfect situation. It doesn't exist in the NFL.

BattleRedToro
02-24-2007, 03:46 PM
What a crock of ****!

As far as I know, nobody has ever said it was ALL David's fault. But if you canít get consistent play from the QB position, the rest of your team has to be so overwhelmingly good that they take up the slack for the poor QB play.

Think about the teams that consistently win with poor QB play. How many are there? Two that I can think of:

Chicago - #3 Defense in the NFL, Two headed monster running attack, and the best special team man in the business last year. Chicago wouldn't have made it anywhere near the SB if they played in the AFC.

Ravens - #1 Defense in the NFL, Big running attack and better then average special teams.

There's an old saying about Favre "as Brett goes, so go the Packers" but the truth is you could say that about any team. As the QB goes, so goes that teamís fate.

In our last 3 wins against Oakland, Indy and Cleveland, Carr had 14, 23, & 15 total passing attempts in those games with QB rating of 56, 104, & 48. Carr had 1 TD pass, 1 INT, was sacked 6 times and lost 3 fumbles. What does this tell you? It tells me we won in spite of Davidís poor play and not because of anything he did.

If we are going to keep this man as our QB, our defense will have to go from being ranked 25 to at least a top 5. And that wonít guarantee us a playoff football team because 2 (Miami, Jacksonville) of the top 5 defenses last season didnít make the playoffs. Why didnít they make the playoffs? Poor QB play!

How anybody can still continue to support David as the Texans QB is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.
You can add Tennessee to this list but I'm sure VY nuthuggers wouldn't agree with that.

You shouldn't have to put him in a perfect situation. It doesn't exist in the NFL.

Noone is asking for a perfect situation for David Carr. They are only asking for an average O-Line performance, but your blind hatred of David Carr can't allow you to understand that, you stupid ****ing moron. :banme

TexansTrueFan
02-24-2007, 03:49 PM
...some of your post make no sense. Carr vs Sage comparison? Carr started 16 games last year-Sage 0! Wow, that's a realistic comparison...notttttttttttt

2004 was 3 yrs ago-duh. Carr put up decent #'s the 1st half but not the 2nd and ended the year with the Browns game. Remember?

I don't know why in the world Capers and Kubiak refuse to start someone besides Carr-maybe their worried about David's mind set.

i'm saying if Sage is so good than why has he been a back up his whole career and not a starter ? I mean are the fans here better at judging talent than the rest of the NFL ?

BattleRedToro
02-24-2007, 03:50 PM
i'm saying if Sage is so good than why has he been a back up his whole career and not a starter ? I mean are the fans here better at judging talent than the rest of the NFL ?

They think so, but they will be when :pigfly:

TexansTrueFan
02-24-2007, 03:54 PM
What a crock of ****!

As far as I know, nobody has ever said it was ALL David's fault. But if you canít get consistent play from the QB position, the rest of your team has to be so overwhelmingly good that they take up the slack for the poor QB play.

Think about the teams that consistently win with poor QB play. How many are there? Two that I can think of:

Chicago - #3 Defense in the NFL, Two headed monster running attack, and the best special team man in the business last year. Chicago wouldn't have made it anywhere near the SB if they played in the AFC.

Ravens - #1 Defense in the NFL, Big running attack and better then average special teams.

There's an old saying about Favre "as Brett goes, so go the Packers" but the truth is you could say that about any team. As the QB goes, so goes that teamís fate.

In our last 3 wins against Oakland, Indy and Cleveland, Carr had 14, 23, & 15 total passing attempts in those games with QB rating of 56, 104, & 48. Carr had 1 TD pass, 1 INT, was sacked 6 times and lost 3 fumbles. What does this tell you? It tells me we won in spite of Davidís poor play and not because of anything he did.

If we are going to keep this man as our QB, our defense will have to go from being ranked 25 to at least a top 5. And that wonít guarantee us a playoff football team because 2 (Miami, Jacksonville) of the top 5 defenses last season didnít make the playoffs. Why didnít they make the playoffs? Poor QB play!

How anybody can still continue to support David as the Texans QB is beyond me. Way, way, way beyond me.

Hmm ur post confused me, My whole point to this whole thread is to see how many people thoguth us losing was truly all Carrs fault, And there is alot of people who think if we get a new QB or team is just gonna be so awesome, and or o-line will block better etc. When all i'm saying is yes Carr isnt that good, but people around him make him look worse than he is !

NATHANHALE
02-24-2007, 04:05 PM
i'm saying if Sage is so good than why has he been a back up his whole career and not a starter ? I mean are the fans here better at judging talent than the rest of the NFL ?

I didn't say he is so good but-yes-I would like to find out.

And Carr has been a starter his entire career and we have loss more games than any other franchise team--remember the Bucs and Saints?

JMO, but I would like to see if Sage or any other QB can improve our victory chances--you'll give Carr more years to see if he won't fail..how about just a couple starts for someone else.

And, to take your logic further...if Carr goes somewhere else, do you think he should get the chance to start since he's been a losing QB his entire career?

NATHANHALE
02-24-2007, 04:07 PM
"Hmm ur post confused me, My whole point to this whole thread is to see how many people thoguth us losing was truly all Carrs fault, And there is alot of people who think if we get a new QB or team is just gonna be so awesome, and or o-line will block better etc. When all i'm saying is yes Carr isnt that good, but people around him make him look worse than he is !"

...or just the opposite...let's find out!!!!!!!!!!!

Wharton
02-24-2007, 05:43 PM
Hmm ur post confused me, My whole point to this whole thread is to see how many people thoguth us losing was truly all Carrs fault, And there is alot of people who think if we get a new QB or team is just gonna be so awesome, and or o-line will block better etc. When all i'm saying is yes Carr isnt that good, but people around him make him look worse than he is !Bull ****!!! My post is not confusing to you at all. Actually, I'm pretty sure, it makes perfect sense.

You want to gain Carr support on this board and in the fan base by beating the drum softly. Instead of making a direct argument, like "itís the line's fault" or "itís coach's fault", you've decided to take an indirect approach by trying to say "is not ALL David's fault".

Whether or not it's "David's fault" or not doesn't mean anything. The only thing that matters is whether or not David is a good enough QB to lead this team RIGHT NOW (not sometime in the future).

The fact is the Texans won "in spite" of David's mediocre performance.

DocBar
02-24-2007, 09:12 PM
I voted that it would be worse. The ONLY way it would be better, without an improved OL, is if we can get a Marine or Solier fresh out of Iraq. He might be prepare for the level of violence DC has faced for 5 yrs. And NO, I'm not making comparisons of NFL to WAR. Just making a comment.

:hunter:

Navy_Chris
02-24-2007, 09:15 PM
I voted that it would be worse. The ONLY way it would be better, without an improved OL, is if we can get a Marine or Solier fresh out of Iraq. He might be prepare for the level of violence DC has faced for 5 yrs. And NO, I'm not making comparisons of NFL to WAR. Just making a comment.

:hunter:

It will NEVER be better as long as Carr's still here. I guarantee you. He's already been through so much. It'd be like trying to erase that from his mind...and we all know how hard that can be. haha.

Is George Blanda still available?