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View Full Version : Hey Plummer, stay in Denver!


trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:23 PM
Jake Plummer and David Carr have a lot in common. They both know Kube's system and they both are AT BEST average NFL QBs. Neither one will ever be great enough to be mentioned with other QBs. Plummer had a few good years under Kubes in Denver because they had a complete team. We don't care who the QB is anymore, we just can't wait for the Texans to be a complete team.

swtbound07
02-18-2007, 05:28 PM
Jake Plummer and David Carr have a lot in common. They both know Kube's system and they both are AT BEST average NFL QBs. Neither one will ever be great enough to be mentioned with other QBs. Plummer had a few good years under Kubes in Denver because they had a complete team. We don't care who the QB is anymore, we just can't wait for the Texans to be a complete team.

no, i care greatly who the qb is. The correct answer is "Welcome Jake Plummer! Worst case scenario is taht you will be a different kind of suck." If we are going to suck anyway, it would be nice to have something different to kvetch about. ABC!!!!! (Anybody But Carr)

Carr Bombed
02-18-2007, 05:32 PM
Jake Plummer and David Carr have a lot in common. They both know Kube's system and they both are AT BEST average NFL QBs. Neither one will ever be great enough to be mentioned with other QBs. Plummer had a few good years under Kubes in Denver because they had a complete team. We don't care who the QB is anymore, we just can't wait for the Texans to be a complete team.

Plummer under Kubiak > Carr.......bottom line.

and I really don't see the reason for the urge to repeatly flood the board with endless Carr threads, you could of easily put this in one of the bazillion threads already started.

I'm sick of it, its getting to the point where we need a "Carr" section so the Bull Pen will actually have some substance to it.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 05:33 PM
Jake Plummer and David Carr have a lot in common. They both know Kube's system and they both are AT BEST average NFL QBs. Neither one will ever be great enough to be mentioned with other QBs. Plummer had a few good years under Kubes in Denver because they had a complete team. We don't care who the QB is anymore, we just can't wait for the Texans to be a complete team.

OK, I'm watching golf and some racing...the wife is napping and I'm bored. So I'll play the same game again. 1) We don't know that Carr knows Kubiak's system. He didn't really show that he had mastered it and has alot to learn. Plummer, on the other hand, spent 3 years in it (under him) and did pretty well with it. 2) On horrible teams..Texans and Cards...at least Plummer got them to the playoffs once and won a game. Big difference. 3) I'm waiting for Carr to be average and Plummer has AT LEAST shown that he can be above average in the right circumstances. 4) I plenty care who the QB is. If I didn't and the fans didn't this debate wouldn't take up so much of the boards bandwidth. 5) Why the need to write ANOTHER thread like this...besides helping my Sunday along:)

trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:34 PM
no, i care greatly who the qb is. The correct answer is "Welcome Jake Plummer! Worst case scenario is taht you will be a different kind of suck." If we are going to suck anyway, it would be nice to have something different to kvetch about. ABC!!!!! (Anybody But Carr)

Plummer is not better than Carr and it will cost the Texans a draft pick and an additional free agent. I'm up for a change, but at some point you have to ask if this particular change is worth it.

Marcus
02-18-2007, 05:34 PM
Anybody But Carr . . . as long as it isn't Jake Plummer.

I'll take a 38 year old Jeff Garcia over Jake Plummer.

Carr Bombed
02-18-2007, 05:36 PM
Plummer is not better than Carr and it will cost the Texans a draft pick and an additional free agent. I'm up for a change, but at some point you have to ask if this particular change is worth it.

Did you already work out a trade with Denver. If we wait long enough he's going to be released and everybody knows this.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Plummer under Kubiak > Carr.......bottom line.

and I really don't see the reason for the urge to repeatly flood the board with endless Carr threads, you could of easily put this in one of the bazillion threads already started.

I'm sick of it, its getting to the point where we need a "Carr" section so the Bull Pen will actually have some substance to it.

Its not about Carr, its about Houston having a complete team. I'm tired of hearing about it as well. When you have a team w/ a controversy your going to hear it, period. Keep him and move on with development of the team.

TexansLucky13
02-18-2007, 05:40 PM
no, i care greatly who the qb is. The correct answer is "Welcome Jake Plummer! Worst case scenario is taht you will be a different kind of suck." If we are going to suck anyway, it would be nice to have something different to kvetch about. ABC!!!!! (Anybody But Carr)

Mr. SWT, I could fix your avatar for you if you wanted. That is, of course, if you want it to be normal looking. Just a thought!

trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:42 PM
... I plenty care who the QB is. If I didn't and the fans didn't this debate wouldn't take up so much of the boards bandwidth. 5) Why the need to write ANOTHER thread like this...besides helping my Sunday along:)

I care that the team wins, no matter who is QB. My guy is leading TN, unfortunatly.

Carr Bombed
02-18-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm done with this thread, I would rather go to the dentist or get a prostate exam then string through another Carr thread..........sorry.

swtbound07
02-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Mr. SWT, I could fix your avatar for you if you wanted. That is, of course, if you want it to be normal looking. Just a thought!

the photo doesn't resize well without distortion, but do what you feel

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 05:43 PM
Its not about Carr, its about Houston having a complete team. I'm tired of hearing about it as well. When you have a team w/ a controversy your going to hear it, period. Keep him and move on with development of the team.

Then refute what others have said without just stating "he is better." A complete team is what we are all after. You can accomplish it with the change.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:44 PM
Did you already work out a trade with Denver. If we wait long enough he's going to be released and everybody knows this.

It does not matter if he is released we will still eat cap space with very $ little to spare. What we want and what is feasible are two different things.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm done with this thread, I would rather go to the dentist or get a prostate exam then string through another Carr thread..........sorry.

LOL..I'll be following you. Time drink and think about dinner while getting ready for Amazing Race.

Navy_Chris
02-18-2007, 05:47 PM
the photo doesn't resize well without distortion, but do what you feel

Would everybody stop comparing David to Jake? The difference between the 2 is that Jake isn't afraid to stand in the pocket and deliver a good throw. Jake looks at ALL his receivers, not just one of them. Jake is a leader on the field, David is anything but that. Jake isn't content with dinking and dunking down the field just for the purpose of padding his completion percentage, David is. Need I say more?

With all that being said. I think Jake needs to stay in Denver. Brady Quinn is our guy at #8. The QB depth chart should look like this:

Sage Rosenfels
Brady Quinn
Quinton Porter

trutxn
02-18-2007, 05:48 PM
Then refute what others have said without just stating "he is better." A complete team is what we are all after. You can accomplish it with the change.

A change at QB will be a fresh start but it will do nothing as far as wins go. To win we need to add to our O & D lines, RB, WR, DBs. You know the complete team. One person isn't going to do a damn thing. That one person was in last years draft.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 05:54 PM
A change at QB will be a fresh start but it will do nothing as far as wins go. To win we need to add to our O & D lines, RB, WR, DBs. You know the complete team. One person isn't going to do a damn thing. That one person was in last years draft.

We don't know that. We haven't seen a winning team so we don't know what will flip the switch(like a career backup like Romo or a rookie like VY or Leinart) but just as you can speculate I could speculate that the team may be getting tired of the same questions so maybe a guy who knows the system better might make a difference. You still draft your stud of choice at #8 and you hit the draft like you did in the 2nd round on like last year and you all of a sudden have a fresh team that may learn how to win some games. This doesn't even include FA. So overall we don't know how it will change things but it is pretty easy to argue that it could. So far that is all this franchise has had...woulda, coulda, shoulda,...could, should.

Texian
02-18-2007, 05:56 PM
no, i care greatly who the qb is. The correct answer is "Welcome Jake Plummer! Worst case scenario is taht you will be a different kind of suck." If we are going to suck anyway, it would be nice to have something different to kvetch about. ABC!!!!! (Anybody But Carr)

They can spend millions more to make that happen!!!!

trutxn
02-18-2007, 06:00 PM
...You still draft your stud of choice at #8 and you hit the draft like you did in the 2nd round on like last year and you all of a sudden have a fresh team that may learn how to win some games. This doesn't even include FA. So overall we don't know how it will change things but it is pretty easy to argue that it could. So far that is all this franchise has had...woulda, coulda, shoulda,...could, should.

You help make my point that much more evident, teams are built through the draft, Plummer or Carr alone will do nothing. I was ready to ditch Carr last year during the real draft class. Since we stuck with him then, they may do it again. It would really suck for us to trade him to MN and then he lead them to the playoffs and we sit at .500 watching.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 06:03 PM
They can spend millions more to make that happen!!!!


Exactly, it would put us in worse salary cap position. Next year we would have nothing and would have to cut players even with the annual cap raise. If money wasn't involved LIFE would be much different.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 06:05 PM
I'm done with this thread, I would rather go to the dentist or get a prostate exam...

Shows us what your into. Enjoy...

Carr Bombed
02-18-2007, 06:07 PM
we would not be in worse cap position, we would actually save money. If plummer is released he would have to renegotiate a new contract. You have said multiple times in this thread you don't think Carr is the "franchise QB" and that you believe this team has to be built through the Draft. Well Trade carr for a pick, sign Plummer for a fair contract, draft a talented QB to wait in the wing, and MOVE ON

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 06:08 PM
You help make my point that much more evident, teams are built through the draft, Plummer or Carr alone will do nothing. I was ready to ditch Carr last year during the real draft class. Since we stuck with him then, they may do it again. It would really suck for us to trade him to MN and then he lead them to the playoffs and we sit at .500 watching.

Do you realize what you are doing?You aren't proving anything. You are making up "what if" scenarios that actually are semi-far fetched.I didn't help you make any points. You still haven't gotten to my original post where I pointed out the flaws in your initial post. We know a team that is complete is a good team, however sometimes that team is better than you think and turns a corner when things change in the simplest ways. I'll show you the opposite of your argument......

"It would really suck for us to trade him to MN and then he lead them to the playoffs and we sit at .500 watching."= You

"I would be awesome if Plummer did like he did in Denver and led us to the playoffs while we had a young understudy learn from him."-Me

All speculation.

Carr Bombed
02-18-2007, 06:11 PM
Shows us what your into. Enjoy...

What are you into......... a infatuation with David Carr. You obviously don't even have the IQ to pick up sarcasm or the ability to post a opinion in the million of threads on this topic already, so really theres no further purpose in even debating with you.

TexansLucky13
02-18-2007, 06:15 PM
the photo doesn't resize well without distortion, but do what you feel

http://x7e.xanga.com/984d4303d9732107568285/s76225773.jpg

How is that? :shades:

trutxn
02-18-2007, 06:57 PM
we would not be in worse cap position, we would actually save money. If plummer is released he would have to renegotiate a new contract. You have said multiple times in this thread you don't think Carr is the "franchise QB" and that you believe this team has to be built through the Draft. Well Trade carr for a pick, sign Plummer for a fair contract, draft a talented QB to wait in the wing, and MOVE ON

If Plummer is willing to take a HUGE pay cut, sign him. It will show his dedication to the game, which I have questioned in Carr. He seems to just be happy to be along for the ride at times. We all know that neither one of them are the long term answer, its just up to who we want on the ride with us. I'm sure moving on is always part of the plan!

Honoring Earl 34
02-18-2007, 07:19 PM
If Plummer is willing to take a HUGE pay cut, sign him. It will show his dedication to the game, which I have questioned in Carr. He seems to just be happy to be along for the ride at times. We all know that neither one of them are the long term answer, its just up to who we want on the ride with us. I'm sure moving on is always part of the plan!

I think again QB play has never been a strong suit anyhow ... we should be patient .

If there is a guy in the 3rd this year fine ... if not maybe we draft 19th next year and the BPA is a QB .

Imatexanfan
02-18-2007, 07:34 PM
What would it take for the city of Houston to give Carr another season?
After watching him year after year, my honest assesment is that he is not a natural born leader (surprise....I know, nothing new). I can't tell you how frustrating it is to me when the Texans blow a close game, like the one against the Giants, and Carr appears unsympathetic/non-emotional. Now you look at QB's like Brady, Brees or even Delhomme (despite his terrible year) and you can see the emotion. These QB's are usually the ones who take a mediocre team and make them great because losing is not an option.

I would love nothing more than for David to publically come onto television and say, "Please don't give up on me Houston, I want to be your quarterback".

At least then I'd know that he had heart for the game and is HONESTLY willing to do what it takes to make the Texans a winning franchise. I'm one of those fans who want him to succeed so that I can believe that Casserly did one good thing during his tenure, but I'm losing patience much like everyone else. If giving up Carr means taking a broke down Plummer, then what's the point? Take a QB (HINT: K. Kolb) in the 3rd and make Carr compete for his position. :bubble:

swtbound07
02-18-2007, 10:16 PM
I'd rather be in cap hell then carr hell.

New_Texans
02-18-2007, 10:21 PM
im just waiting for plummer to have his typical 3 crucial int game. Then all of the Texans fans will know that he was such a mistake to have on this team.

The Pencil Neck
02-18-2007, 10:38 PM
im just waiting for plummer to have his typical 3 crucial int game. Then all of the Texans fans will know that he was such a mistake to have on this team.

As opposed to a 4-int game against the Pats, or a sub 100 yard passing game against the Raiders or Browns? :)

I don't think anyone thinks Plummer is a long term solution, just a temporary upgrade until we can find a long term solution. Yeah, Plummer throws a few more interceptions than Carr but he also throws a lot more TD's.

Trap_Star
02-18-2007, 10:49 PM
As opposed to a 4-int game against the Pats, or a sub 100 yard passing game against the Raiders or Browns? :)

I don't think anyone thinks Plummer is a long term solution, just a temporary upgrade until we can find a long term solution. Yeah, Plummer throws a few more interceptions than Carr but he also throws a lot more TD's.

Exactly. I'll take those ints as long he takes chances deep. I know im not the only one tired of dump-offs and 5 yrd slant routes...:bowser:

big sarge
02-19-2007, 02:21 AM
What would it take for the city of Houston to give Carr another season?
After watching him year after year, my honest assesment is that he is not a natural born leader (surprise....I know, nothing new). I can't tell you how frustrating it is to me when the Texans blow a close game, like the one against the Giants, and Carr appears unsympathetic/non-emotional. Now you look at QB's like Brady, Brees or even Delhomme (despite his terrible year) and you can see the emotion. These QB's are usually the ones who take a mediocre team and make them great because losing is not an option.

I would love nothing more than for David to publically come onto television and say, "Please don't give up on me Houston, I want to be your quarterback".

At least then I'd know that he had heart for the game and is HONESTLY willing to do what it takes to make the Texans a winning franchise. I'm one of those fans who want him to succeed so that I can believe that Casserly did one good thing during his tenure, but I'm losing patience much like everyone else. If giving up Carr means taking a broke down Plummer, then what's the point? Take a QB (HINT: K. Kolb) in the 3rd and make Carr compete for his position. :bubble:


I have seen alot of diff styles of leadership in my day, and Carr has leadership potential. Watching him play i can tell he leads by example, and yes I do see him get emotional. I think he is frustarted. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe he is stuck in a loop? He may be just as mad at the organization as we are.

He doesn't have to publicly say "hey Houston I want to be your QB of the future" to convince me. He does that by getting up after every sack wether it is caused by his malfunction, or the o-line. I try to find the good things in people because it is a challenge. It is too easy to find things you do not like about someone. I know alot of people probably think he is weal, but to them I say look how resilient he is! I have been on teams that sucked, and were down, but I alway somehow kept a good atitude and perservered.

I happen to think DC is a leader in his own right! Is he the best QB in the NFL?? Hell no! He is our QB though. Can you imagine being under the scrutiny of millions of people week in and week out. Some people just do not handle it well. I think he handled it great in the first 3 years and then just said screw it I do not have the support I need. There goes his psycie. I think those years passed took a toll on his mentality. The first 3 years was not his fault, he did the best with what he had. Now it is his fault because he still thinks he has nothing to rely on. I think he could have been a really good QB, but he was ruined by capers and casserly...the dastardly duo...lol

OH Well!! Maybe he can get a fresh start with a new team. ESPN Insider says Carr is exiting and the Texans are wiser! So what does that tell you???

Carr Bombed
02-19-2007, 03:01 AM
As opposed to a 4-int game against the Pats, or a sub 100 yard passing game against the Raiders or Browns? :)

I don't think anyone thinks Plummer is a long term solution, just a temporary upgrade until we can find a long term solution. Yeah, Plummer throws a few more interceptions than Carr but he also throws a lot more TD's.

You forgot to mention fumbles. Carr had 16 fumbles last season. Over the past 3 years Plummer had 17 and Carr lost as many fumbles last season as Plummer has over the last 4 years.

Plummer might throw more picks, but yes like mentioned above, he throws more TDs. (Plummer in limited play last year had 11 TDs, David over the whole season had 11 TDs.) I'll take a few more INTs, over a boat load of fumbles which are 10x worse than a INT., because atleast a INT. is like a crappy punt. You get no ball advancement when your QB lays the ball on the ground, you actually lose yards. I'm also tired of seeing tipped balls at the line on crucial plays.

thunderkyss
02-19-2007, 10:44 AM
It does not matter if he is released we will still eat cap space with very $ little to spare. What we want and what is feasible are two different things.

It's not about the money.


First, I'm not for Jake as a Texan. I'd just as soon forget that he will be available.

But just for arguments sake. If we keep Carr, he will be a $7.50 mil cap hit in '07, and $8 mil cap hit in '08........ because of the $2 mil prorated Bonus, and his $5.5 mil & $6 mill salary for '07 & '08.

If we designate him as a June 1st cut, we can still prorate his bonus across the same two years, '07 & '08 at $2 mil a piece.

If we sign Plummer(which I'm against) to a 3 year contract($3million, $4million, $5million) plus a $6 million bonus($2mil a year towards the cap) & a $4 million Roster bonus for the '09 year (a $22 million package that he probably should take) then our cap hit for him in '07 would be $5million($2million bonus plus $3million salary) if you add the David Carr dead money $2million it comes up to a $7million cap hit....... $0.5 million less than we'd have if we kept David.

In '08, we'd take an $8million cap hit for the QB position... $6million for Jake, and $2million of David Carr Dead money. So it's the same hit, whether David is here or not.

in '09, if Jake has us as favorites to get to the AFC Championship game, then we pay him the $4 million bonus, resign him for another three years to ease the cap hit...... it doesn't matter to us, or Jake if he is actually going to be around another three years, that's not the point.

But my math is very simple...... there are probably a hundred other ways to minimize the cap hit for '07/'08.

So don't say it's about money, because it isn't.

Unless the plan is to pick up Plummer, and keep Carr...... which would be stupid... but it's not like we haven't done stupid before.

trutxn
02-19-2007, 12:56 PM
It's not about the money.


Wish that was true, because if it was we would have the best team money could buy. Its called the salary cap, this is a business, money does matter.

trutxn
02-19-2007, 01:02 PM
It's not about the money.


First, I'm not for Jake as a Texan. I'd just as soon forget that he will be available.

But just for arguments sake. If we keep Carr, he will be a $7.50 mil cap hit in '07, and $8 mil cap hit in '08........ because of the $2 mil prorated Bonus, and his $5.5 mil & $6 mill salary for '07 & '08.

If we designate him as a June 1st cut, we can still prorate his bonus across the same two years, '07 & '08 at $2 mil a piece.

If we sign Plummer(which I'm against) to a 3 year contract($3million, $4million, $5million) plus a $6 million bonus($2mil a year towards the cap) & a $4 million Roster bonus for the '09 year (a $22 million package that he probably should take) then our cap hit for him in '07 would be $5million($2million bonus plus $3million salary) if you add the David Carr dead money $2million it comes up to a $7million cap hit....... $0.5 million less than we'd have if we kept David.

In '08, we'd take an $8million cap hit for the QB position... $6million for Jake, and $2million of David Carr Dead money. So it's the same hit, whether David is here or not.

in '09, if Jake has us as favorites to get to the AFC Championship game, then we pay him the $4 million bonus, resign him for another three years to ease the cap hit...... it doesn't matter to us, or Jake if he is actually going to be around another three years, that's not the point.

But my math is very simple...... there are probably a hundred other ways to minimize the cap hit for '07/'08.

So don't say it's about money, because it isn't.

Unless the plan is to pick up Plummer, and keep Carr...... which would be stupid... but it's not like we haven't done stupid before.

Jake is not the only free agent in the market. With only $10 million in cap space $2 million is a lot to just throw away. That will leave us straped at $8 million cap space and we would still need to sign our draft picks. So much for picking up any other FAs. Unfortunatly money is a deciding factor when playing by league rules. McNair has enough, he just isn't allowed to use it.

thunderkyss
02-19-2007, 01:02 PM
Wish that was true, because if it was we would have the best team money could buy. Its called the salary cap, this is a business, money does matter.

Read my whole post, I'm telling you we could sign Jake for a contract that would be very cap friendly........ just replace Carr with Jake, the cap hit would be the same.

The Texans were very smart with splitting David's $8mill bonus into two payments.

If we designate David as a June 1st cut, his cap hit will only be $2million this year & next, a contract for Jake can be made to take that into account, and still pay Jake what he'd probably get from another team, plus Kubiak will guarantee that he'll start, and not have to compete, like he would for any other team.

& just in case another team makes that same guarantee with more guaranteed money, our trump card is that he'll start for Kubiak.

trutxn
02-19-2007, 01:10 PM
If we designate David as a June 1st cut, his cap hit will only be $2million this year & next.

Your right, we would be paying $2 million a year for a player that is not even on our team, plus the replacements contract. Smity definitely has some salary cap work to do.

thunderkyss
02-19-2007, 01:12 PM
Jake is not the only free agent in the market. With only $10 million in cap space $2 million is a lot to just throw away. That will leave us straped at $8 million cap space and we would still need to sign our draft picks. So much for picking up any other FAs. Unfortunatly money is a deciding factor when playing by league rules. McNair has enough, he just isn't allowed to use it.
LIke I said, I don't care for Plummer on this team.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-19-2007, 01:16 PM
A change at QB will be a fresh start but it will do nothing as far as wins go. To win we need to add to our O & D lines, RB, WR, DBs. You know the complete team. One person isn't going to do a damn thing. That one person was in last years draft.
Bush?

Exithios
02-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Bush?

I think Trutxn was referring to VY...

trutxn
02-19-2007, 01:22 PM
Bush?

VY will always be a Texan! Just won't play 4 them.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
02-19-2007, 02:51 PM
I think Trutxn was referring to VY...
I know. I was just being sarcastic. :tease:
Even though Bush would have been the better choice over vy IMO. Hopefully we get the runningback we need this year. Peterson or Lynch. I'd prefer Lynch.
:texan:

Ryan
02-19-2007, 04:00 PM
no, i care greatly who the qb is. The correct answer is "Welcome Jake Plummer! Worst case scenario is taht you will be a different kind of suck." If we are going to suck anyway, it would be nice to have something different to kvetch about. ABC!!!!! (Anybody But Carr)

my thoughts exactly!