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bluestars87
02-17-2007, 02:09 AM
Me and another 49ers fan are having a heated argument on the 49ers message board about David Carr. It's quite a long thread that was started by him. Basically he started the thread to insult David Carr and how he'll never amount to anything and is sick and tired of hearing that he may be something special if he went elsewhere. And now he wants the thread closed because everyone in the thread is disagreeing with him.

So my question is, do you believe Carr will amount to anything? Ever? Here's a page of the thread. I think you can view one part of it even if you're not members on the forum.

Click here. (http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=18385)

It came down to him believing that Carr just plain sucks because Sage Rosenfels played better behind the same offensive line that Carr did and only got sacked once, and Carr holds onto the ball too long and hasn't shown anything after being in the NFL for five years. I disagree. He had a pretty decent stint in 2004. Then he compared Carr to Losman and somehow concluded that he's better than Carr because he has "less weapons" and got sacked several times more. School this person please.

Ckw
02-17-2007, 02:23 AM
Not sure if this is the place to make the argument but I read a lot of comments on that board about Rosenfels being as good or better than Carr. I mean, believe me, I would love for Rosenfels to become a star. I would love for him to be the next great quarterback under Kubiak. But aren't we getting (or aren't they getting) a little ahead of themselves/ourselves? Do we/they really know Rosenfels isn't going to be a bust? And did we/they all forget that Rosenfels basically only came into games when we were already behind and second stringers were put into the game? And his stats were not even all that impressive. Sure he looked pretty good, but he was playing against a mediocre, second string defense. We/they all saw what Carr could do against second string defenses, right? Look, I don't believe Carr is the answer. But I am also not ignorant enough to jump on the Rosenfels bandwagon just yet either. I guess we/they will all have to wait and see....

Aztequila
02-17-2007, 05:21 AM
I don't see how Rosenfels gets all this credit for playing in one game (Titans I), I know he played in a couple more, but this one everyone points to. The D loosened up after they had the game locked up. I'm not sure, but I think I remember Rosenfels getting picked off the first series in.

Arky
02-17-2007, 07:25 AM
Ya, the Titans game where Rosenfels looked good was just like what has been mentioned: It was a big lead and the Titan defense was loose. DC did something similar earlier in the year in the Indy #1 game (3 passing TD's in the 4th quarter) but it was dismissed as "padding his stats" and "garbage time". Sage does it and it's "a great comeback" and "he looked good".....

There's plenty of Carr negativity on this board, too, and no doubt there will be some forthcoming.... :)

Texans_Chick
02-17-2007, 09:23 AM
I don't see how Rosenfels gets all this credit for playing in one game (Titans I), I know he played in a couple more, but this one everyone points to. The D loosened up after they had the game locked up. I'm not sure, but I think I remember Rosenfels getting picked off the first series in.

IIRC, Rosenfels played in Titans I and Jags II. He looked good in Titans I, and barely held it together in Jags II.

In evaluating Rosenfels v. Carr, I think the best we can come up with is an incomplete. Rosenfels basically looked more good than bad in the limited situations he was put into.

Talk about buzzards luck:Chad Stanley has a cut hand during the Jets game and Rosenfels holds for the extra point. Rosenfels breaks his hand when the long missed extra point is returned and he makes the tackle.

At a minimum, it is hard to think that Rosenfels wouldn't have had some minutes during the Raiders game at least.

The incomplete comes from Rosenfels not starting games and not specifically being game planned against. Hard to evaluate someone from limited minutes.

Honoring Earl 34
02-17-2007, 09:25 AM
I think you sum it up TC but in a different way .

I would say it this way ... I have zero confidence in Carr ... at least with Sage I have'nt ruled him out yet .

Honoring Earl 34
02-17-2007, 09:57 AM
I'm a old fart, not too good ( ok, I'm bad ) using a computer. But I can tell you where there is the facts you need are. Go too our official website, game day, game 7, 10/29/ game coverage/Carr still starter/ Here's what you need. The last paragraph covers what you want. Hope your old enough to remember Steve Young. :texan:

http://www.houstontexans.com/news/detail.php?PRKey=3042

t_flare
02-17-2007, 10:04 AM
I think if he goes to the bucs where they have a good D, Cadillic Williams and draft Calvin Johnson Carr can make something in his career. If he stays here and have a better O-Line and a good running game with a improving Defense.. i personally think this team can be a playoff contender.

Let me tell you that I cant remember a rookie QB starting the first game of an expansion team. Esp that the Texans wanted to start young and build up instead of adding old players to win first.

SamuraiSword
02-17-2007, 10:07 AM
I'm a old fart, not too good ( ok, I'm bad ) using a computer. But I can tell you where there is the facts you need are. Go too our official website, game day, game 7, 10/29/ game coverage/Carr still starter/ Here's what you need. The last paragraph covers what you want. Hope your old enough to remember Steve Young. :texan:

You also forget when Young was benched for doing bad, he during the next game had something to prove and won that game. Him being benched put fire in his belly while Carr being benched just had that laid back attitude. I am just saying not sure how long he needs to be a good quarterback, but he better do it soon. This is the NFL and the NFL is a buisness.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 10:21 AM
I don't think Carr will be a total bust where he is pushed out of the league but I don't see him being a frontline starter. I can be a broken record on things like this but GMs and owners have to spend their money wisely and you can't pay a guy starting QB money and then say.."but we need to surround him with people to make him go from average to better." I think people are starting to realize again, after seeing Grossman, that you really need someone who can control the game. Do you need a great QB?No but if you are having to plug in too many variables in order to get one player up to speed...its asking alot. With parity, the cap and injuries, etc it is a tough proposition for Carr. I may be wrong but I see him being a good back-up.

As for Rosenfels, I haven't seen him enough but I'll tell you what made me interested in him compared to Carr. In that Titans games Carr would have guys within a few feet and he would panic, start ducking and lose his cool at times. I was impressed with how Rosenfels kept his eyes downfield while at the same time sliding to the left or right in the pocket or just taking that extra step up. I don't know if this is something that would be consistent but many O-lines all of a sudden look competent when the QB helps them. It happened in Dallas this year.

Grid
02-17-2007, 10:57 AM
I think Carr will see a marked improvement on another team. The Texans seem to have lost faith in him.. and he has lost faith in the Texans. That isnt a good situation. Plus, the majority of fans want to see him gone.. so this just isnt the place for him to grow and take the next step.

I like the guy though..great guy..very talented..and I really do think he will succeed with another team.

He does hold onto the ball too long though. He has terrible pocket presence. Bad bad instincts. Maybe he can grow some..i dunno.

TwinSisters
02-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Me and another 49ers fan are having a heated argument on the 49ers message board about David Carr. It's quite a long thread that was started by him.

a poor 11 pages worth... neophytes.

I was in out in the middle of a corn field, in the middle of the night, in the middle of Iowa, in the middle of America, finding myself in the middle of a heated Carr debate that went on until the break of dawn.

For 49ers fans... what's the creedo of the WCO? The pass sets up the run.
( the exact opposite of what Turner did in Dallas )

So I am not so sure what you cats are howling about that Carr should be manning a WCO?

but let's look at the run game:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

pay attention to Houston, Detroit, and Arizona.

Houston ranked 8th, while the other two ranked at the bottom in the run.
Then look at the pass protection ranking with the number of sacks ( Arizona climbs up a little )

Then look at the QBs
Kitna
Leinart ( only 11 games and a rookie )

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/premium/beta/
here you can look at the short yardage situations.
Houston ranks up in the top ten in most short yardage areas

OL poor? I don't see how Arizona with using a Texan cast off is that much better. Detroit was just plain pathetically bad.

Poor RBs? Maybe... but then why do we do so good in short yardage situations. Typically a crappy line is not going to win on third and short.

Third and long though... when we need to pass is a whole another story.

We suck ass, yet we see Detroit push up into the top 10? The same with Arizona.

QB75
02-17-2007, 11:09 AM
While I would like to see Carr stay here in 2007, I have little doubt that his talent will be more effective witha more well rounded team.

brewhaus
02-17-2007, 11:40 AM
While I would like to see Carr stay here in 2007, I have little doubt that his talent will be more effective witha more well rounded team.

Yeah, preferably a team in the NFC.

bluestars87
02-17-2007, 11:52 AM
a poor 11 pages worth... neophytes.

I was in out in the middle of a corn field, in the middle of the night, in the middle of Iowa, in the middle of America, finding myself in the middle of a heated Carr debate that went on until the break of dawn.

For 49ers fans... what's the creedo of the WCO? The pass sets up the run.
( the exact opposite of what Turner did in Dallas )

So I am not so sure what you cats are howling about that Carr should be manning a WCO?

but let's look at the run game:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol.php

pay attention to Houston, Detroit, and Arizona.

Houston ranked 8th, while the other two ranked at the bottom in the run.
Then look at the pass protection ranking with the number of sacks ( Arizona climbs up a little )

Then look at the QBs
Kitna
Leinart ( only 11 games and a rookie )

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/premium/beta/
here you can look at the short yardage situations.
Houston ranks up in the top ten in most short yardage areas

OL poor? I don't see how Arizona with using a Texan cast off is that much better. Detroit was just plain pathetically bad.

Poor RBs? Maybe... but then why do we do so good in short yardage situations. Typically a crappy line is not going to win on third and short.

Third and long though... when we need to pass is a whole another story.

We suck ass, yet we see Detroit push up into the top 10? The same with Arizona.
So who's right in our debate then according to you?

TwinSisters
02-17-2007, 12:26 PM
So who's right in our debate then according to you?

I have been through this one on two seperate coast lines ( and the mountains and the plains ). If you wear a Texans cap, it brings it out no matter where you are.

The last bastion to be breeched is surrounding talent. Until those walls are cracked, the argument will stand.
---

My opinion is different because Carr doesn't represent what I want in my team. I think he is just mediocre and I want greatness. I like throwing the ball, not rugby style orgies of manpile pushing around in the grass.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 01:06 PM
The above post did sound like a broken record.

OK, then tell me what is wrong with it. I'm open for debate. I just laid out my opinion on he and Rosenfels. It isn't like I made up facts. People get so caught up in whether they personally like the guy, etc. If you can spell it out any clearer I'm all open. At his moment I think the smart comments without facts are sounding like a broken record. In fact it has become more prevelant the last few days. Honestly, if both he and we went our seperate ways and both did well, it would be fine by me.

threetoedpete
02-17-2007, 01:58 PM
Welcome Bluestars87. Boy did you come to the wrong place for a difinative answer.


I'm with NJniner on this one. You can simply google the draft and research the amount of support the Texans invested in the offensive line , one fifty pick in Fread Weary and last year two third round picks with Spencer @ 65 and Erick Winston @ 66, and get your answer. Richard Justice had an excellent example of the left brain thinking that fifty percent of the board has had on Daivid Carr since the day we drafted him and passed on Peppers. There are a large protion at that time that hated him that he was from California and not from a big school. Now with the by passing of Vincent Young...he is defiled in Houston and there's no going back. Chicken or the egg arguement really. Boselli taken in the original Texan's Free agent expansion draft looks like an under the table deal with Jacksonville to get Seth Payne and Robair Smith. The other past free agents of offensive lineman (tackles) brought in here the last five years, Ryan Tucker, from the cowboys, Todd Wade, the third round reach Seth Wand currently on the titans rooster, a down in the tracks Victory Riley and Todd Wade, were far from a cure. The fact is DC has taken two hundred and forty sacks. No one can be effective or mature under this kind of an assualt. The former regeime was far from students at how to develope a young QB prospect. Their past record's speaks for itself.

So is David Carr the next Jim Plunkett ? This is the one who is in my mind is the closest scenario from the NFL past that resembles David Carr's situation, I realy don't know. If the niners got him it would be my hope that it would be another Steve Young situation for the niners. I think he needs to sit a while and recover from his five year assult here. I believe, but don't know for a fact, that one day DC will take a team to the super bowl. Even with all the negativity I've faced here over the last four years...I still believe in the guy. I don't believe he got a very fair shot here. The Richard Jutice article is worth the read just to see the other sides left brain viewpoint. It was in the thrusdays paper I believe. I will not however, soil my computer by looking that bastards work up for you. Sorry about that.

TwinSisters
02-17-2007, 02:17 PM
Jim Plunkett ranked in the top ten of the NFL in completions, attempts, and yards his first four years in the league.

1971 6-8
1972 3-11
1973 5-9
1974 7-7

His WR's are a bunch of no-names ( outside of Stingley, and Stingley is only known because of his injury )

Leon Gray and John Hannah don't show up until 1973.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 03:20 PM
Welcome Bluestars87. Boy did you come to the wrong place for a difinative answer.


I'm with NJniner on this one. You can simply google the draft and research the amount of support the Texans invested in the offensive line , one fifty pick in Fread Weary and last year two third round picks with Spencer @ 65 and Erick Winston @ 66, and get your answer. Richard Justice had an excellent example of the left brain thinking that fifty percent of the board has had on Daivid Carr since the day we drafted him and passed on Peppers. There are a large protion at that time that hated him that he was from California and not from a big school. Now with the by passing of Vincent Young...he is defiled in Houston and there's no going back. Chicken or the egg arguement really. Boselli taken in the original Texan's Free agent expansion draft looks like an under the table deal with Jacksonville to get Seth Payne and Robair Smith. The other past free agents of offensive lineman (tackles) brought in here the last five years, Ryan Tucker, from the cowboys, Todd Wade, the third round reach Seth Wand currently on the titans rooster, a down in the tracks Victory Riley and Todd Wade, were far from a cure. The fact is DC has taken two hundred and forty sacks. No one can be effective or mature under this kind of an assualt. The former regeime was far from students at how to develope a young QB prospect. Their past record's speaks for itself.

So is David Carr the next Jim Plunkett ? This is the one who is in my mind is the closest scenario from the NFL past that resembles David Carr's situation, I realy don't know. If the niners got him it would be my hope that it would be another Steve Young situation for the niners. I think he needs to sit a while and recover from his five year assult here. I believe, but don't know for a fact, that one day DC will take a team to the super bowl. Even with all the negativity I've faced here over the last four years...I still believe in the guy. I don't believe he got a very fair shot here. The Richard Jutice article is worth the read just to see the other sides left brain viewpoint. It was in the thrusdays paper I believe. I will not however, soil my computer by looking that bastards work up for you. Sorry about that.

I'm not sure if this is what you are talking about. It is more of a "he never had a shot but he should have done more" type thing

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4555045.html

Honoring Earl 34
02-17-2007, 03:32 PM
Welcome Bluestars87. Boy did you come to the wrong place for a difinative answer.


I'm with NJniner on this one. You can simply google the draft and research the amount of support the Texans invested in the offensive line , one fifty pick in Fread Weary and last year two third round picks with Spencer @ 65 and Erick Winston @ 66, and get your answer. Richard Justice had an excellent example of the left brain thinking that fifty percent of the board has had on Daivid Carr since the day we drafted him and passed on Peppers. There are a large protion at that time that hated him that he was from California and not from a big school. Now with the by passing of Vincent Young...he is defiled in Houston and there's no going back. Chicken or the egg arguement really. Boselli taken in the original Texan's Free agent expansion draft looks like an under the table deal with Jacksonville to get Seth Payne and Robair Smith. The other past free agents of offensive lineman (tackles) brought in here the last five years, Ryan Tucker, from the cowboys, Todd Wade, the third round reach Seth Wand currently on the titans rooster, a down in the tracks Victory Riley and Todd Wade, were far from a cure. The fact is DC has taken two hundred and forty sacks. No one can be effective or mature under this kind of an assualt. The former regeime was far from students at how to develope a young QB prospect. Their past record's speaks for itself.

So is David Carr the next Jim Plunkett ? This is the one who is in my mind is the closest scenario from the NFL past that resembles David Carr's situation, I realy don't know. If the niners got him it would be my hope that it would be another Steve Young situation for the niners. I think he needs to sit a while and recover from his five year assult here. I believe, but don't know for a fact, that one day DC will take a team to the super bowl. Even with all the negativity I've faced here over the last four years...I still believe in the guy. I don't believe he got a very fair shot here. The Richard Jutice article is worth the read just to see the other sides left brain viewpoint. It was in the thrusdays paper I believe. I will not however, soil my computer by looking that bastards work up for you. Sorry about that.

Pete the Texans spent a 2nd on Pitts , 3rd on Weary in 02 .

In 03 they picked up Wand in the 3rd .

In 06 the picked Spencer and Winston in the 3rd .

FA signings McKinney , Wiegert , Wade , and Salaam .

Also they picked Milford Brown in the SD .

So off the top of my head we landed the 10 worst offensive linemen in history . Something stinks here if you look at where other teams OL were drafted .

QB75
02-17-2007, 07:27 PM
Yeah, preferably a team in the NFC.

I'd rather see him in the AFC for sure.

old football fan
02-17-2007, 07:48 PM
Rosenfelds is a career backup who may be good for 1 or 2 starts a year. He's been in the league 6 years and with 3 teams and hasn't beaten anybody out for the starting job yet and the QB's he was up against were not all Pro QB's.(Texans-Carr, Miami- Gus Ferrote, Redskins- Burnell(sorry for any misspellings) We don't need a great QB here, just one that will get the job done.