PDA

View Full Version : Adam Schein: "Texans Shouldn't Give up on Carr now"


Texans_Chick
02-15-2007, 04:04 PM
Here's Schein's point of view:

link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6475790)

My first thought after reading this...

Even if his premise is right, I don't see how financially it can make sense to have a three way competition with Plummer, Carr and Rosenfels.

I am guessing that if the Texans pull the plug on Carr, there are things that he is doing that they don't think are fixable. They wouldn't say the details of what those things publicly because that would diminish his value, and take out his knees in case we would have to keep him.

Navy_Chris
02-15-2007, 04:24 PM
Here's Schein's point of view:

link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6475790)

My first thought after reading this...

Even if his premise is right, I don't see how financially it can make sense to have a three way competition with Plummer, Carr and Rosenfels.

I am guessing that if the Texans pull the plug on Carr, there are things that he is doing that they don't think are fixable. They wouldn't say the details of what those things publicly because that would diminish his value, and take out his knees in case we would have to keep him.

BRADY QUINN!!!

Carr goes to Minnesota for a 3rd.

Texian
02-15-2007, 04:31 PM
The whole $$$$ thing doesn't make sense in the Carr-Plummer scenario. The Texans like the Broncos are going to trade a QB vs cutting him. They want some value for money invested. Trading Carr brings his 07 cap hit to around $4 mil. Plummer has an 07 salary cap hit of $7+ mil. I don't see the Texans taking a $11 mil cap hit for a QB in 07. They are only $10 mil under. I can't see Plummer renogitiating his salary with Denver just so they can trade him. Plummer would be better off getting cut and taking his chances on negoitiating a contract with his new team. He would probably be much better off. That said, Shanahan will take a 6th RD pick for Plummer before cutting him and Plummers current salary goes with him. Then there is Kyle, you have to wonder about Plummer's willingness to go to a new QB coach who's father just benched and cut/traded you.

Ole Miss Texan
02-15-2007, 04:41 PM
Plummer would be extremely unprofessional if he held that against Kyle...if that would be the case I wouldn't want that Kid on our team. kid being jake.

Texan_Bill
02-15-2007, 04:43 PM
Plummer would be extremely unprofessional if he held that against Kyle...if that would be the case I wouldn't want that Kid on our team. kid being jake.

Agreed, but then again, Jake has had his bouts with being unprofessional.

infantrycak
02-15-2007, 04:44 PM
TPlummer has an 07 salary cap hit of $7+ mil.

Plummer's salary is $5.3 mil for 2007 under his contract. The larger numbers you see reported are his cap hit if he stays in Denver which includes prorated signing bonus.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 04:47 PM
News Flash...jake Plummer Is No Better Than What We Already Have.

Texans Horror
02-15-2007, 04:53 PM
I agree with the link. I think that the Texans are missing two - three players to create a very tight offense. This can be acquired easily this offseason. With a good running back and a new lineman or two, and another season with Kubiak, the Texans can say they have exhausted all resources. If Carr doesn't look good next year, they can take a QB then, but they have invested too much and come too far with Carr to show him the doorstep right now.

Also, to can Carr means the Texans are starting over...again...and I'm not fond of that idea.

If they truly wanted a QB, they should have taken one last year when two really great quarterbacks were there for the taking.

Lucky
02-15-2007, 04:54 PM
Wow, how about Andre throwing David under the bus? I hope the next QB has the guts to get in Johnson's grill the next time he drops a gimme, quits on a route, or lets a DB get inside him for a pick. Clearly, Carr doesn't.

Finally, the obliquitory question: Who is Adam Schein?

RTP2110
02-15-2007, 04:55 PM
I don't like the article. When the Texans lose it's, "The reason Houston lost to hometown boy Vince Young and the Titans in the quarterback's first pro start in Houston was because of the defense and its inability to make a stop or two, not David Carr.''

When the Texans win it's, "Carr went 3-1 last year against the top two teams in the division, the Super Bowl Champion Colts and the Jaguars.''

He sounds like some of the people posting in this MB.

Texian
02-15-2007, 05:30 PM
Plummer's salary is $5.3 mil for 2007 under his contract. The larger numbers you see reported are his cap hit if he stays in Denver which includes prorated signing bonus.

Noted, Thanks! Then that would be a cap hit of $4 mil for Carr and Plummer's salary basically replaces Carr, correct? So the Texans would be adding $4 mil to the cap in 07 to add Plummer and trade Carr. I personally don't see the value there.

petedy
02-15-2007, 05:33 PM
Well what do you know a sports writer who gave an objective view and certain posters don't like it because it wasn't tearing down Carr. All that I've read on these posts are predominately anti Carr and just one writer takes a different stance and you don't like the article.I bet if he had wrote one demanding Carr be driven from the league it would have made your heart sing.

infantrycak
02-15-2007, 05:40 PM
Noted, Thanks! Then that would be a cap hit of $4 mil for Carr and Plummer's salary basically replaces Carr, correct? So the Texans would be adding $4 mil to the cap in 07 to add Plummer and trade Carr. I personally don't see the value there.

Carr's base for 2007 is $5.25 mil but his cap hit with prorated bonus would be $7.25 so take Jake at full price for $5.3 mil plus a $4 mil cap hit for Carr and it basically costs $2 mil of cap space to make the exchange. Keep in mind, the Texans could explore a renegotiation with Plummer as part of the trade talks, i.e. trade doesn't go through unless Plummer agrees to a renegotiated contract with a lower base.

RTP2110
02-15-2007, 05:46 PM
Well what do you know a sports writer who gave an objective view and certain posters don't like it because it wasn't tearing down Carr. All that I've read on these posts are predominately anti Carr and just one writer takes a different stance and you don't like the article.I bet if he had wrote one demanding Carr be driven from the league it would have made your heart sing.

Please re-read my post. I didn't say anything about Carr one way or the other. I said I do not like the article because, actually, it's not very objective at all. Look at the two quotes that I posted. I'm not bashing or supporting Carr, I'm just saying that I don't like the article.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 05:51 PM
Please re-read my post. I didn't say anything about Carr one way or the other. I said I do not like the article because, actually, it's not very objective at all. Look at the two quotes that I posted. I'm not bashing or supporting Carr, I'm just saying that I don't like the article.


There has been alot of this going on lately. It is ok to not want Carr here or think for yourself. Too much "faction" talk.

I'll agree with Texans Chick on the part about a 3 way competition. Bad for the team, bad for us, bad for a coach who is trying to make an identity.

As for a comment above that we would be starting over without Carr. I think we would be moving forward and healing.

Grid
02-15-2007, 06:01 PM
News Flash...jake Plummer Is No Better Than What We Already Have.

Plummer has been around..

Plummer is comfortable in the pocket..

Plummer knows the offense frontwards and backwards..

If Plummer gets sacked 50 times, it will be because the line is bad, not because he is making mental mistakes..

Plummer provides confidence and leadership at the QB position..



Its true that as far as QB skill goes.. Plummer is no better than Carr.. but in MANY other areas, Plummer is a big improvement.

But Plummer is old, and he would only be a temporary solution. People are acting like signing Plummer means he is going to be our QB for the next 10 years.

A Texan
02-15-2007, 06:03 PM
News Flash...jake Plummer Is No Better Than What We Already Have.
Your newsflash is wrong!

hollywood_texan
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
Here is a quote from this guy in the article, "The reason Houston lost to hometown boy Vince Young and the Titans in the quarterback's first pro start in Houston was because of the defense and its inability to make a stop or two, not David Carr."

Question: When has the offense ever done anything to help out the defense to put a game out of reach or a late drive in the 1st or 2nd halfs?

This guy is just another Carr apologist realizing that Carr is on the hot seat.

Granted, all of the Texan's problems are not the result of David Carr and there has been questionable talent around him at certain positions to make a playoff push, but that is no excuse for the number of losses the team has had to endure and how ineffective the offense is week in and week out.

Carr is a #1 draft pick and a QB, you have to able to bring something to the table to make your team better regardless of the talent around you at an NFL level. Not necessarily win games, but execute the offensive gameplan at times to show you can do it, including the 2 minute drill.

Just because a team losses on the last play of the game doesn't mean the squad on the field or some certain player on the field is entirely responsible for the loss.

Carr has his fingers in all the losses the Texans had in 2006 and some wins he was ineffective as the QB to take credit for a positive contribution.

I don't think Carr is going anywhere, but I think somewhere down the line they will restructure his contract during the offseason.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 06:05 PM
Plummer has been around..

Plummer is comfortable in the pocket..

Plummer knows the offense frontwards and backwards..

If Plummer gets sacked 50 times, it will be because the line is bad, not because he is making mental mistakes..

Plummer provides confidence and leadership at the QB position..



Its true that as far as QB skill goes.. Plummer is no better than Carr.. but in MANY other areas, Plummer is a big improvement.

But Plummer is old, and he would only be a temporary solution. People are acting like signing Plummer means he is going to be our QB for the next 10 years.

Exactly. A slight upgrade with other skill sets that knows the offense and who will be there while a younger guy learns. I don't expect miracles.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 06:08 PM
Here is a quote from this guy in the article, "The reason Houston lost to hometown boy Vince Young and the Titans in the quarterback's first pro start in Houston was because of the defense and its inability to make a stop or two, not David Carr."

Question: When has the offense ever done anything to help out the defense to put a game out of reach or a late drive in the 1st or 2nd halfs?

This guy is just another Carr apologist realizing that Carr is on the hot seat.

Granted, all of the Texan's problems are not the result of David Carr and there has been questionable talent around him at certain positions to make a playoff push, but that is no excuse for the number of losses the team has had to endure and how ineffective the offense is week in and week out.

Carr is a #1 draft pick and a QB, you have to able to bring something to the table to make your team better regardless of the talent around you at an NFL level. Not necessarily win games, but execute the offensive gameplan at times to show you can do it, including the 2 minute drill.

Just because a team losses on the last play of the game doesn't mean the squad on the field or some certain player on the field is entirely responsible for the loss.

Carr has his fingers in all the losses the Texans had in 2006 and some wins he was ineffective as the QB to take credit for a positive contribution.

I don't think Carr is going anywhere, but I think somewhere down the line they will restructure his contract during the offseason.

He also fails to mention that when we were driving midway through the 4th quarter to take the league we decided to run a draw on 3rd and 8 and settle for a FG. It is plays like this that show a lack of confidence on a team that should be going for it.

Insideop
02-15-2007, 06:15 PM
Wow, how about Andre throwing David under the bus? I hope the next QB has the guts to get in Johnson's grill the next time he drops a gimme, quits on a route, or lets a DB get inside him for a pick. Clearly, Carr doesn't.

Finally, the obliquitory question: Who is Adam Schein?

As far as I'm concerned he's just another "talking head" with an opinion. With coments like "the inexcusable decision of bypassing Reggie Bush" I don't put much stock in what they have to say after that. JMHO!

mexican_texan
02-15-2007, 06:23 PM
Carr may be the next Kenny Stabler, but most Texans fans want to start over, not just of his play, but because he symbolizes the old Dom Caper Texans. He and the city of Houston need a fresh start.

keyfro
02-15-2007, 06:25 PM
what i believe will happen:

i see david being traded to either the vikes or to the panthers for a mid-round pick (4th rounder) and everyone will be happy for about three months

i see david doing things we all hoped to have seen here...but with an above average o-line he'll get them done in (minn.)

plummer will do just about the same thing david did here

there will be half this message board calling for sage by week three

david will take the his new team (the vikes who is the team i believe we'll trade him to) to the playoffs in year one which will pravoke the entire board to asking why couldn't he do that here and another half this board going i told you we shouldn't have traded him...i told you we should have given him one more chance

carr will then go on to have a successful career (in purple) and this is the real reason why...the vikings will use the shotgun formation

yes that is the formation carr is most used to while playing in college and in high school...for some reason we never put him in shotgun even when the o-line was at it's worst...never made sense to me...and head coach brad childress will come out looking like this best qb coach ever because he simply put carr back into his comfort zone where all he has to do is take the ball and get rid of it instead of taking the ball from center...dropping back...and look for where the blitzer is about to hit him from

where does this leave us...still looking for the answer at qb when we should really be looking at fixing the o-line

carr does need to be traded because most of the fans here in houston are done with him...but needless to say i still have faith that he'll be a very productive qb in the league for many years to come

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 06:31 PM
what i believe will happen:

i see david being traded to either the vikes or to the panthers for a mid-round pick (4th rounder) and everyone will be happy for about three months

i see david doing things we all hoped to have seen here...but with an above average o-line he'll get them done in (minn.)

plummer will do just about the same thing david did here

there will be half this message board calling for sage by week three

david will take the his new team (the vikes who is the team i believe we'll trade him to) to the playoffs in year one which will pravoke the entire board to asking why couldn't he do that here and another half this board going i told you we shouldn't have traded him...i told you we should have given him one more chance

carr will then go on to have a successful career (in purple) and this is the real reason why...the vikings will use the shotgun formation

yes that is the formation carr is most used to while playing in college and in high school...for some reason we never put him in shotgun even when the o-line was at it's worst...never made sense to me...and head coach brad childress will come out looking like this best qb coach ever because he simply put carr back into his comfort zone where all he has to do is take the ball and get rid of it instead of taking the ball from center...dropping back...and look for where the blitzer is about to hit him from

where does this leave us...still looking for the answer at qb when we should really be looking at fixing the o-line

carr does need to be traded because most of the fans here in houston are done with him...but needless to say i still have faith that he'll be a very productive qb in the league for many years to come

Wow. Ok. I'd hope even if this crazy scenario happens..beating out Jackson, etc that we would be heading in the right direction ourselves. There seems to be an assumption that a line can fix other Qbing problems.

TexanFan23
02-15-2007, 06:48 PM
I believe Carr will be traded to Tampa for a 4th rd. pick.

I believe Jake Plummer will be added to the roster and I also think that the O-Line will be addressed heavily this offseason. I'd predict two 1st day O-Linemen in the draft and possibly a big name signing in free agency.

I wouldn't mind seeing Carr stick around, esp. if they build a better line..

wolfscar
02-15-2007, 06:55 PM
Just because a team losses on the last play of the game doesn't mean the squad on the field or some certain player on the field is entirely responsible for the loss.

I think that Schein was trying to make precisely that point; that you can't say: the squad on the field or some certain player on the field is entirely responsible for the loss. If you needed to pick out an 'If only...' type moment from that game though, that was a horrifically bad defensive play. I mean, criminally bad.

I don't think Carr is going anywhere, but I think somewhere down the line they will restructure his contract during the offseason.

I hope you're right. If pushed for a standpoint, I'd lean towards him staying on, but I'd like to see him take a pay cut to do so. Love him or hate him, he just flat out has not justified that big fat paycheck and if he wants to back up what he says about wanting to stay here and win for the Texans then freeing up some funds to bring in more talent would be a good way to show it. I think it would go a long way towards ackowledging some of the resentment that a lot of fans feel too, purely by holding up his proverbial hands and saying, 'I know I've underachieved - give me one more chance and I'll earn my next contract extension on merit.'

Arky
02-15-2007, 07:13 PM
He also fails to mention that when we were driving midway through the 4th quarter to take the league we decided to run a draw on 3rd and 8 and settle for a FG. It is plays like this that show a lack of confidence on a team that should be going for it.

Another way to look at that is everyone in the stadium is expecting pass. Cross 'em up with the run .... it's done all the time and done successfully. Had it been successful, Kubiak would have gotten props.

Also, IIRC, that was a time in the game when Tennessee had seized momentum and by kicking the FG, the Texans at least guaranteed themselves OT.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 07:20 PM
Another way to look at that is everyone in the stadium is expecting pass. Cross 'em up with the run .... it's done all the time and done successfully. Had it been successful, Kubiak would have gotten props.

Also, IIRC, that was a time in the game when Tennessee had seized momentum and by kicking the FG, the Texans at least guaranteed themselves OT.

That is another way to look at it except that when you have 3-4 wins I'd think you'd want to go for the kill. I believe this might have been the drive before that when they took a 1 pt lead to 4. I just took at as in taking the safe route.

tsip
02-15-2007, 07:33 PM
OK, Carr apologist--got a challenge for you, and it should be easy--you've been asked this question a 'zillion' times but refuse to answer.

OK, let's start by recognizing that 'everyone' in the world knows--by memory and verbatim every single 'excuse' given for Carr's play on the field. We know that one day Carr will be enshrined in the HOF at the top of the granite wall that awards those players for entry-not for their 'superior' play on the field- but for their failure do to 'things' beyond their control. If not listed first, he'll be close to it.

Here we go--on the plays that Carr has had 'super fantastic' pass protection and he has multiple players opened down field with separation and clear skies/no sun in his eyes/perfect temps/excellent field conditions==everything perfect==why does he throw the ball to a player behind the line of scrimmage instead of down field??

Please, $$$ are riding on your answers...thanks...

tsip
02-15-2007, 07:47 PM
Carr may be the next Kenny Stabler, but most Texans fans want to start over, not just of his play, but because he symbolizes the old Dom Caper Texans. He and the city of Houston need a fresh start.

Exactly, MT. There is just too much 'baggage' on both dides of the fence. Carr would have to 'fairly and honestly' beat out-by a wide margin-legit challengers to even begin a 'walk' to the other side.

And please,Kubiak, real proven competition.

And then, from the first snap, Carr would have to 'light' the stadium up with a Warren Moon type of game--remember the game in KC when Moon threw for over 500 yds?

Carr would have to become the 'boy who can' instead of the boy couldn't because everybody picked on him. Thought things went bad for him in the past?...just wait and see what's in store for him if he comes back...and we get 'status quo.........'

hollywood_texan
02-15-2007, 07:57 PM
what i believe will happen:

i see david being traded to either the vikes or to the panthers for a mid-round pick (4th rounder) and everyone will be happy for about three months

i see david doing things we all hoped to have seen here...but with an above average o-line he'll get them done in (minn.)

plummer will do just about the same thing david did here

there will be half this message board calling for sage by week three

david will take the his new team (the vikes who is the team i believe we'll trade him to) to the playoffs in year one which will pravoke the entire board to asking why couldn't he do that here and another half this board going i told you we shouldn't have traded him...i told you we should have given him one more chance

carr will then go on to have a successful career (in purple) and this is the real reason why...the vikings will use the shotgun formation

yes that is the formation carr is most used to while playing in college and in high school...for some reason we never put him in shotgun even when the o-line was at it's worst...never made sense to me...and head coach brad childress will come out looking like this best qb coach ever because he simply put carr back into his comfort zone where all he has to do is take the ball and get rid of it instead of taking the ball from center...dropping back...and look for where the blitzer is about to hit him from

where does this leave us...still looking for the answer at qb when we should really be looking at fixing the o-line

carr does need to be traded because most of the fans here in houston are done with him...but needless to say i still have faith that he'll be a very productive qb in the league for many years to come

So Carr is going to become like fine wine overnight? Maybe, but I think it is unlikely. How many players that basically contributed marginal results for their team all of sudden are big-time players with a change of scenary? The odds are not in your favor regarding your predictions!

Yet, teams, divisions, and conferences are relative, I give you that. It is much easier for a team to make the playoffs in the NFC than the AFC. Further, I think the Vikings and the Panthers are an easier division than the AFC South.

Texian
02-15-2007, 09:00 PM
Carr's base for 2007 is $5.25 mil but his cap hit with prorated bonus would be $7.25 so take Jake at full price for $5.3 mil plus a $4 mil cap hit for Carr and it basically costs $2 mil of cap space to make the exchange. Keep in mind, the Texans could explore a renegotiation with Plummer as part of the trade talks, i.e. trade doesn't go through unless Plummer agrees to a renegotiated contract with a lower base.

That's fine. You got a can of peanuts w/ a long expiration date and if you can trade them for another can of peanuts w/ a shorter expiration date at no cost, no real harm, no real foul. If you have to pay $2 mil for the peanuts w/ a shorter expiration date, then there is a problem. Now if we were getting a jar of cashews, well now that is different story but with Plummer it is just another can of peanuts w/ a shorter expiration date.

QB75
02-15-2007, 09:07 PM
Your right.. Carr should have made the game saving tackle on Vince's run at the end of the game. Heck, where was he. Carr really hurt the defense that game.

Exactly. If you were at the game you know that the defense lost it. Not Carr. :shades:

NFLforher
02-15-2007, 09:14 PM
...but needless to say i still have faith that he'll be a very productive qb in the league for many years to come



Yes. :winky:

petedy
02-15-2007, 09:18 PM
OK, Carr apologist--got a challenge for you, and it should be easy--you've been asked this question a 'zillion' times but refuse to answer.

OK, let's start by recognizing that 'everyone' in the world knows--by memory and verbatim every single 'excuse' given for Carr's play on the field. We know that one day Carr will be enshrined in the HOF at the top of the granite wall that awards those players for entry-not for their 'superior' play on the field- but for their failure do to 'things' beyond their control. If not listed first, he'll be close to it.

Here we go--on the plays that Carr has had 'super fantastic' pass protection ans he has multiple players opened down field with separation and clear skies/no sun in his eyes/perfect temps/excellent field conditions==everything perfect==why does he throw the ball to a player behind the line of scrimmage instead of down field??

Please, $$$ are riding on your answers...thanks...

Because, he was told to run that play and not audiable any thing or at anytime since that's how Kubiak runs things.This wasn't because Carr wasn't capable of calling but that's how Kubiak's system works.

tsip
02-15-2007, 09:29 PM
Because, he was told to run that play and not audiable any thing or at anytime since that's how Kubiak runs things.This wasn't because Carr wasn't capable of calling but that's how Kubiak's system works.

Carr has been dumping his entire career...because his coach won't let him throw the ball down the field??

Petdy, the Texans could sign a minimum pay hs or jc player to 'toss' the ball 10 feet ( not yds), even under handed--why pay Carr $8 million ($45 mil over his career? Folks,...still got some prime land for sale in those lucious 'swamp' lands for that dream house...get those lots while they're HOT!!!:tease: :tease: :winky:

QB75
02-15-2007, 09:48 PM
Carr has been dumping his entire career...because his coach won't let him throw the ball down the field??

Petdy, the Texans could sign a minimum pay hs or jc player to 'toss' the ball 10 feet ( not yds), even under handed--why pay Carr $8 million ($45 mil over his career? Folks,...still got some prime land for sale in those lucious 'swamp' lands for that dream house...get those lots while they're HOT!!!:tease: :tease: :winky:

A high school or JC player. Really. Great argument.

The Pencil Neck
02-15-2007, 10:27 PM
A high school or JC player. Really. Great argument.

You really don't get that there's a fairly large contingent of people on this MB that really think that Carr isn't even good enough to be considered a bad quarterback. TSIP is probably one of the more virulent of these and has been for awhile; back in the pre-season, I used to have knock down drag-out arguments with him over whether Carr should start.

Unfortunately, over the course of the past season, I've joined him in the belief that Carr won't ever be a good quarterback.

tsip
02-15-2007, 10:33 PM
A high school or JC player. Really. Great argument.

Yes, it is a good arguement. If, you as the HC (man in charge) are only going to have your QB throw the ball 3 yds (hoping for big YAC #'s), why are you going to 'tie' up $8 mil in cap money to do something you can get done for minimum wage?

To most people, McNair is not paying Carr 'top' money to dink and dunk...but,then-to some pepople-he is. If your defending Carr or another poster, you're going to be in shock when we finally get a QB here that can 'exist and function' in a verticle passing game.

tsip
02-15-2007, 10:49 PM
Here's Schein's point of view:

link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6475790)

My first thought after reading this...

Even if his premise is right, I don't see how financially it can make sense to have a three way competition with Plummer, Carr and Rosenfels.

I am guessing that if the Texans pull the plug on Carr, there are things that he is doing that they don't think are fixable. They wouldn't say the details of what those things publicly because that would diminish his value, and take out his knees in case we would have to keep him.

JMO, but this is one of your best post! There are so many question marks about Carr's play that we'll never know.

One puzzle piece that always amazes me is the thought process on the team amongst the coaching staff and the:homer:'s about the OL. In a recent poll of players we need to get the most to 'upgrade' our team, the :homer: 's didn't even mention the OL--nor has the team drafted for the OL in the 1st round, maybe once in the 2nd?...what's up with this??

Heath Shuler
02-15-2007, 10:51 PM
You really don't get that there's a fairly large contingent of people on this MB that really think that Carr isn't even good enough to be considered a bad quarterback. TSIP is probably one of the more virulent of these and has been for awhile; back in the pre-season, I used to have knock down drag-out arguments with him over whether Carr should start.

Unfortunately, over the course of the past season, I've joined him in the belief that Carr won't ever be a good quarterback.

It is a hard realization to accept. You want your team to be successful. You hope you will see something from Carr that would make you to believe he has what it takes to lead our team. However, all you get is unmet expectations.

thunderkyss
02-15-2007, 11:56 PM
Here's Schein's point of view:

link (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6475790)

My first thought after reading this...

Even if his premise is right, I don't see how financially it can make sense to have a three way competition with Plummer, Carr and Rosenfels.

I am guessing that if the Texans pull the plug on Carr, there are things that he is doing that they don't think are fixable. They wouldn't say the details of what those things publicly because that would diminish his value, and take out his knees in case we would have to keep him.

In truth...... I think dumping Carr is the wrong thing.

You know I'm high on Vince Young, and it is my belief that he will do great things NFL.

We passed on that.

They better fix David Carr, & if they can't, they better try harder. dumping him after one year doesn't seem like they are trying very hard. Benching him against Tennessee(when he had multiple fumbles against Indy & Washington, then none against Miami, & Dallas)........ that didn't make a lot of sense to me.

Then you've got the most sacked QB in NFL history of any 5 year period, and you don't teach him to play out of the shotgun. How long does it take to teach someone to take the snap out of the gun.

& if you're not going to use the shotgun, at least put 4 & 5 wide recievers. if they blitz, someone is definitely open, & that someone can get some big yards in a hurry.


Now, just so no one gets the wrong idea....... I do not think David should start for the Texans in September. He needs to be the #2 QB from training camp, and earn the starting position during the season. If I had my way, he would be a true back up, meaning the only way he can play on Sunday, is if Sage gets hurt. & when he comes into the game, he's got to make it a tough decision to put a healthy Rosenfels back out there(Kinda like what happened to Huard & Green, or Batch & Rothlisberger in '06. Or Gerard & Leftwhich in '05).

& forget Plummer. He's a basket case. If he can't do anything without Kubiak, then he's nothing special...... nothing worth paying for anyway. Better than Carr...... but Carr's our mistake, Jake isn't.

AustinJB
02-16-2007, 12:03 AM
News Flash...jake Plummer Is No Better Than What We Already Have.

:challenge: Between the ears, yes Plummer is much better than what we already have.:winky:

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 12:13 AM
Carr's base for 2007 is $5.25 mil but his cap hit with prorated bonus would be $7.25 so take Jake at full price for $5.3 mil plus a $4 mil cap hit for Carr and it basically costs $2 mil of cap space to make the exchange. Keep in mind, the Texans could explore a renegotiation with Plummer as part of the trade talks, i.e. trade doesn't go through unless Plummer agrees to a renegotiated contract with a lower base.

as far as I know....... there is no trade for Plummer talks..... I'm thinking he'll be cut, and we'll negotiate a deal with him.

If we designate Carr as a June 1st cut, we can cut him now, and only take a $2mil cap hit.

IF we sign Jake to a $3 mil '07 salary, with a $6 million bonus over 3 years, then his cap hit would be $5 mil........ plus David's $2mil, and we're looking at a $7mil hit for a Starting QB in '07.

Jake's Salary can go to $4mil next year, plus the $2mil prorated bonus, plus David's $2mil, and we'll take an $8mil hit in '08....... the same thing we'd take if David stayed for the 3rd year of the extension.

Jake's Salary can then go to $5 mill, with a $2mil roster bonus, plus the $2mil prorated bonus, and we'll take a $9mil cap hit in '09.

That's a $20mil for a three year stint. Jake ought to be happy with that. I'd be happy with that.

NO more of a cap hit for the QB position than we'd take if David stayed and played like the probowler we thought he would be. The Texans ought to be happy with that.

GP
02-16-2007, 12:23 AM
Carr may be the next Kenny Stabler, but most Texans fans want to start over, not just of his play, but because he symbolizes the old Dom Caper Texans. He and the city of Houston need a fresh start.

And so what happens when Kubiak, years later, is run out of town? Jake Plummer will need to be let go, too, because he symbolizes the past with Kubiak and Smith?

News flash: We're fans. McNair doesn't make decisions based on what you want to see and what you need to never see again (as you described in your post).

Fans follow teams, they don't run them.

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 12:30 AM
Your right.. Carr should have made the game saving tackle on Vince's run at the end of the game. Heck, where was he. Carr really hurt the defense that game.

IF we had a starting QB on the team, we would have gone for the touchdown, to win it in regulation, and not the field goal to force OT.

Another way to look at that is everyone in the stadium is expecting pass. Cross 'em up with the run .... it's done all the time and done successfully. Had it been successful, Kubiak would have gotten props.

Also, IIRC, that was a time in the game when Tennessee had seized momentum and by kicking the FG, the Texans at least guaranteed themselves OT.

uh.......... it was 3rd & 8. We were in Kris Brown's sweet spot. take a shot at the endzone......... as long as it isn't a dumb pass, or a QB fumble, we still could have got the FG, and gone into OVertime. We're talking about throwing on third, not going for it on forth.

Exactly. If you were at the game you know that the defense lost it. Not Carr. :shades:

everyone in my section knew we lost it when we went for the field goal because we didn't trust our QB with the ball.

mexican_texan
02-16-2007, 12:41 AM
And so what happens when Kubiak, years later, is run out of town? Jake Plummer will need to be let go, too, because he symbolizes the past with Kubiak and Smith?

News flash: We're fans. McNair doesn't make decisions based on what you want to see and what you need to never see again (as you described in your post).

Fans follow teams, they don't run them.
You say that like you assume Plummer will be here for years...

The Pencil Neck
02-16-2007, 02:04 AM
And so what happens when Kubiak, years later, is run out of town? Jake Plummer will need to be let go, too, because he symbolizes the past with Kubiak and Smith?


Well, jeez, I don't think anyone's expecting any of the FA's that might be brought in to replace Carr (Plummer, Garcia, Huard, or whoever) to last for more than a couple of years until we can seriously upgrade the position either through the draft, through free agency in a couple of years when a bigger name players comes available (and hopefully we're more attractive to free agents), or through grooming a young player we might already have.

Plummer's probably close to the end of his starting years and he should only be brought in if he gives us a better chance to win for the next year or so. Personally, I think in terms of production, he will be a major upgrade over Carr but he'll make a whole different set of mistakes and break our hearts in a whole different set of ways.

I just watched the Browns game over again a couple of days ago and it's hard for me to look at how badly Carr played in that game and not think that bringing in someone and just letting them hand off the ball and not even throw would be an improvement. And that was a better game than the one against the Raiders.

TexHorns
02-16-2007, 02:31 AM
If Plummer gets sacked 50 times, it will be because the line is bad, not because he is making mental mistakes..



Then he will get sacked fifty times. Good thing he wasnt on last years team. Also, people forget to take into consideration the lack of a consistant running game and how that affects an offense. IMO, this last year the line did improved in pass protection, it was the loss of DD killed us. Most of the time nobody had to respect the run. I dont know if the stats reflect this but I remember too many critical 3rd and longs. I am not too big on drafting a QB this year and I dont like Plummer so I say let Carr stay another year and compete with Sage R. There are plenty of positions they need to upgrade besides QB. It wouldnt hurt my feelings if Carr stays another year, Plummer retires in Denver and the Texans upgrade their RB, DB's and lines.

HOU-TEX
02-16-2007, 10:03 AM
A high school or JC player. Really. Great argument.

His younger brother looks more poised in the pocket than he does. Derek(I think that's his name) had a playoff game at The Rig (Pearland Stadium) and looked much smarter with the ball than David ever has during his pro career. David was up in the press box watching the game. I wish I could've been in there. "So, how does it make you feel that your younger brother is already out playing you in High School?":doot:

SESupergenius
02-16-2007, 10:15 AM
I contend it's a monumental mistake to let go of Carr if you are not getting anything in return for him or you havn't upgraded the position.

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 10:50 AM
Then he will get sacked fifty times. Good thing he wasnt on last years team. Also, people forget to take into consideration the lack of a consistant running game and how that affects an offense. IMO, this last year the line did improved in pass protection, it was the loss of DD killed us. Most of the time nobody had to respect the run. I dont know if the stats reflect this but I remember too many critical 3rd and longs. I am not too big on drafting a QB this year and I dont like Plummer so I say let Carr stay another year and compete with Sage R. There are plenty of positions they need to upgrade besides QB. It wouldnt hurt my feelings if Carr stays another year, Plummer retires in Denver and the Texans upgrade their RB, DB's and lines.

Two things hurt our running game in '06. Poor line play, and trying to make Jameel Cook a blocking fullback. I expect the line to play better to start next season, & I expect to see Vonta as our starting fullback.

IF David Carr is the future of the Texans, we need to do what it takes to get AD...... or Marshawn....

But I don't understand your argument for a consistent running game. We ran for over 100 net yards in 6 of our last 8 games...... & you can throw in a seventh game, considering we had one rusher gain 99 yards in the season finale...... so that's really 7 of 8. & it's in those last 8 games, that David didn't perform. Failing to throw for 100 yards, in 3 of the last 8. Less than 200 in 6 of the last 8. & I don't know what the TD to INT ratio was, but it was pretty pathetic.

I mean, what exactly do you consider "consistent"??

edo783
02-16-2007, 11:06 AM
I contend it's a monumental mistake to let go of Carr if you are not getting anything in return for him or you havn't upgraded the position.

I agree. The "Lets chuck the QB no matter what" crowd, might want to think that through a little better. And IMO, it isn't a "Or" stituation but rather its and "And" one. You better get something for him AND have a true plan (not just lets get rid of him) on board and the player actually available AND you had better have a real plan to improve the O-line and running game. You drop pretty much any one of those items and we will be screwed for another year.......again.

QB75
02-16-2007, 11:18 AM
His younger brother looks more poised in the pocket than he does. Derek(I think that's his name) had a playoff game at The Rig (Pearland Stadium) and looked much smarter with the ball than David ever has during his pro career. David was up in the press box watching the game. I wish I could've been in there. "So, how does it make you feel that your younger brother is already out playing you in High School?":doot:

Congratulations on completely eliminating your credibility with that comment. :highfive:

El Amigo Invisible
02-16-2007, 11:18 AM
Keep Carr and Draft Russell. Throw Carr out at the end of his contract. I have lost all hope and I do not know if I even care about this draft because they will find a way to screw this up.

HOU-TEX
02-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Congratulations on completely eliminating your credibility with that comment. :highfive:

LOL! I thought you'd like that. Look, you seem like an intelligent guy/gal. Why, may I ask, are you so high on DC? What has he done to earn the kind of credibility that some on this board give him? Sure the line has been porous at times, but what about the 100's of plays he does get time? He has WR's running wide open in front of him and he still doesn't get the ball to them. So why, why does he deserve ANOTHER chance?:winky:

Silver Oak
02-16-2007, 12:36 PM
Keep Carr and Draft Russell. Throw Carr out at the end of his contract. I have lost all hope and I do not know if I even care about this draft because they will find a way to screw this up.


Dang! Having a bad day?

Coming off what many consider to be our best draft, how do you figure they'll "screw it up"?

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 12:37 PM
Exactly. A slight upgrade with other skill sets that knows the offense and who will be there while a younger guy learns. I don't expect miracles.


Do you really think Jake is going to sign a 1-2 year deal? It's highly unlikely,he'll want a 3-4 year minimum.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 12:44 PM
what i believe will happen:

i see david being traded to either the vikes or to the panthers for a mid-round pick (4th rounder) and everyone will be happy for about three months

i see david doing things we all hoped to have seen here...but with an above average o-line he'll get them done in (minn.)

plummer will do just about the same thing david did here

there will be half this message board calling for sage by week three

david will take the his new team (the vikes who is the team i believe we'll trade him to) to the playoffs in year one which will pravoke the entire board to asking why couldn't he do that here and another half this board going i told you we shouldn't have traded him...i told you we should have given him one more chance

carr will then go on to have a successful career (in purple) and this is the real reason why...the vikings will use the shotgun formation

yes that is the formation carr is most used to while playing in college and in high school...for some reason we never put him in shotgun even when the o-line was at it's worst...never made sense to me...and head coach brad childress will come out looking like this best qb coach ever because he simply put carr back into his comfort zone where all he has to do is take the ball and get rid of it instead of taking the ball from center...dropping back...and look for where the blitzer is about to hit him from

where does this leave us...still looking for the answer at qb when we should really be looking at fixing the o-line

carr does need to be traded because most of the fans here in houston are done with him...but needless to say i still have faith that he'll be a very productive qb in the league for many years to come

Bravo!

El Amigo Invisible
02-16-2007, 01:23 PM
Dang! Having a bad day?

Coming off what many consider to be our best draft, how do you figure they'll "screw it up"?

We passed on the "Michael Jordan" of football and do I have to bring up the past drafts.We never go after any decent FA and they never want to play here anyway.I am having a bad day because I keep seeing VY highlights and hearing ESPN say how the Texans fans will be cursed as long as VY is in the leauge. ESPN is now saying " How could you pass on VY???" when a year ago they were saying" I do not want to be the guy who passes on Reggie Bush.". What a bunch of morons! Even after the Rose Bowl, EVERYONE(THIS BOARD AND ESPN) believed Reggie would be better than VYand Matt Leinart .It just makes me sick!

I hope they do not screw this up.

Exithios
02-16-2007, 01:27 PM
Do you really think Jake is going to sign a 1-2 year deal? It's highly unlikely,he'll want a 3-4 year minimum.

And this is why IF the Texans sign him it won't be until after the draft and possibly into training camp. I don't think anyone in the NFL will sign him for more than 2 years and that will cause Jake to drag it out until he just bites on the best deal on the table.

real
02-16-2007, 01:28 PM
EVERYONE(THIS BOARD AND ESPN) believed Reggie would be better than VYand Matt Leinart .It just makes me sick!


That's not true.

I don't know about ESPN, but there were a number of people on this board who wanted VY.

El Amigo Invisible
02-16-2007, 01:36 PM
Sorry I was just lashing out at the USC people on this board who thought Reggie Bush was going to come here. They are long gone now.:aikido:

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 01:40 PM
That's not true.

I don't know about ESPN, but there were a number of people on this board who wanted VY.


I still say that Jay Cutler will be the most prominant QB from last years draft class. VY has great feet and can create when a play has gone bad. Cutler is a much better QB, that kid threw a 76 yard TD pass with no YAC. All air Jevon Walker caught the ball in-stride, inside of the end zone. VY is good I won't take that away from him,but that draft is done and over.

El Amigo Invisible
02-16-2007, 01:44 PM
I still say that Jay Cutler will be the most prominant QB from last years draft class. VY has great feet and can create when a play has gone bad. Cutler is a much better QB, that kid threw a 76 yard TD pass with no YAC. All air Jevon Walker caught the ball in-stride, inside of the end zone. VY is good I won't take that away from him,but that draft is done and over.

True! Brady Quinn will be a mistake even though he will be better than Carr in the long run.

real
02-16-2007, 01:44 PM
I still say that Jay Cutler will be the most prominant QB from last years draft class. VY has great feet and can create when a play has gone bad. Cutler is a much better QB, that kid threw a 76 yard TD pass with no YAC. All air Jevon Walker caught the ball in-stride, inside of the end zone. VY is good I won't take that away from him,but that draft is done and over.

I'm not sure why you highlighted my comments but we can discuss this.

Why does everyone get so excited about the 76 yard pass. How does that make him a better QB ?

real
02-16-2007, 01:46 PM
And I think VY and Leinart are going to be the two best, and I don't think Cutler will do much.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 01:55 PM
I'm not sure why you highlighted my comments but we can discuss this.

Why does everyone get so excited about the 76 yard pass. How does that make him a better QB ?


I wasn't pointing out anything wrong with your post it. I only had your post because it referenced VY.

The reason that the 76 yard pass is mentioned is because of the arm strength and accuracy it displayed. He stepped up into the pocket and arced that ball right into his hands. You have to acknowledge for a rookie QB to have the poise to deliver that pass in stride and all air is something special.

I was also impressed with him against SD when he took the blow to the back of his head, Plummer came in and acomplished nothing except an interception.

In reference to your other post, if you think Lienart and Young will be better than Cutler that's OK it's your opinion. They both performed well on there respective teams. I just think over the span of their careers Cutler will be the one that stands out a little more. JMO

El Amigo Invisible
02-16-2007, 02:02 PM
I wasn't pointing out anything wrong with your post it. I only had your post because it referenced VY.

The reason that the 76 yard pass is mentioned is because of the arm strength and accuracy it displayed. He stepped up into the pocket and arced that ball right into his hands. You have to acknowledge for a rookie QB to have the poise to deliver that pass in stride and all air is something special.

I was also impressed with him against SD when he took the blow to the back of his head, Plummer came in and acomplished nothing except a interception.

In reference to your other post, if you think Lienart and Young will be better than Cutler that's OK it's you opinion. They both performed well on there respective teams. I just think over the span of their careers Cutler will be the one that stands out a little more. JMO


Cutler or Brady Quinn or Russell?

real
02-16-2007, 02:07 PM
The reason that the 76 yard pass is mentioned is because of the arm strength and accuracy it displayed. He stepped up into the pocket and arced that ball right into his hands. You have to acknowledge for a rookie QB to have the poise to deliver that pass in stride and all air is something special.

I am very impressed with Cutlers arm strength. I was also impressed with the way he performed in the pre-season. But this whole arm strength thing gets too much attention IMO.


I was also impressed with him against SD when he took the blow to the back of his head, Plummer came in and acomplished nothing except a interception.

What's so impressive about that ?

real
02-16-2007, 02:08 PM
Cutler or Brady Quinn or Russell?

Neither.

The Pencil Neck
02-16-2007, 02:10 PM
Keep Carr and Draft Russell. Throw Carr out at the end of his contract. I have lost all hope and I do not know if I even care about this draft because they will find a way to screw this up.


There is absolutely no way we will have a shot at Russel unless he shows up to the Combine 50 pounds overweight with a pulled hamstring, needles hanging out of his arms, and dragging his badly beaten girlfriend behind him by the hair.

Really. No shot.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 02:11 PM
I am very impressed with Cutlers arm strength. I was also impressed with the way he performed in the pre-season. But this whole arm strength thing gets too much attention IMO.


Quote:
I was also impressed with him against SD when he took the blow to the back of his head, Plummer came in and acomplished nothing except a interception.


What's so impressive about that ?


That Cutler the rookie came back in and played, visibly disoriented and played his way back into the game.

I here people on this board all the time talking intangibles that's one of them.

The Pencil Neck
02-16-2007, 02:16 PM
I agree. The "Lets chuck the QB no matter what" crowd, might want to think that through a little better. And IMO, it isn't a "Or" stituation but rather its and "And" one. You better get something for him AND have a true plan (not just lets get rid of him) on board and the player actually available AND you had better have a real plan to improve the O-line and running game. You drop pretty much any one of those items and we will be screwed for another year.......again.

I think we just need to have a plan for moving forward and I don't think that plan should include Carr. I think his mind is broken and he's no longer salvageable. Anything we can get for him is a plus and almost anyone we start in his place will be an upgrade at the position.

HoustonFrog
02-16-2007, 02:16 PM
Do you really think Jake is going to sign a 1-2 year deal? It's highly unlikely,he'll want a 3-4 year minimum.

If he wants to sign with a team he can start for he will sign for about 2 years. Look at how we got stuck with Carr's deal after the 3 year option. In a fickle NFL market where teams change yearly there is no way someone will commit to him longterm unless it is a sweetheart deal that allows them to opt out.

real
02-16-2007, 02:16 PM
That Cutler the rookie came back in and played, visibly disoriented and played his way back into the game.

I here people on this board all the time talking intangibles that's one of them.

To each his own I guess.

TwinSisters
02-16-2007, 02:20 PM
Why does everyone get so excited about the 76 yard pass. How does that make him a better QB ?

I get excited about it. The reason I guess is that you ( or not you, but a defense ) have to give more respect to a deep field with a QB that can hit one.

It creates more room to make plays in. If a QB is real erratic or cannot throw a deep pass that well or quickly, then as a defense a guy slipping the safties is not that big of a concern ( in effect, you can concentrate on or cheat towards the line ).

Major Applewhite is a good example. He couldn't throw a deep pass and this limited his ability and value as a QB.

HoustonFrog
02-16-2007, 02:23 PM
I get excited about it. The reason I guess is that you ( or not you, but a defense ) have to give more respect to a deep field with a QB that can hit one.

It creates more room to make plays in. If a QB is real erratic or cannot throw a deep pass that well or quickly, then as a defense a guy slipping the safties is not that big of a concern ( in effect, you can concentrate on or cheat towards the line ).

Major Applewhite is a good example. He couldn't throw a deep pass and this limited his ability and value as a QB.

I agree with your overall assessment but I thought Major threw a great deep ball. It wasn't deep as in arm strength deep but he hit a ton of those post patterns or seam patterns to guys like McGarity.

real
02-16-2007, 02:23 PM
I get excited about it. The reason I guess is that you ( or not you, but a defense ) have to give more respect to a deep field with a QB that can hit one.

It creates more room to make plays in. If a QB is real erratic or cannot throw a deep pass that well or quickly, then as a defense a guy slipping the safties is not that big of a concern ( in effect, you can concentrate on or cheat towards the line ).

Major Applewhite is a good example. He couldn't throw a deep pass and this limited his ability and value as a QB.


Michael Vick runs a 4.3

That lone attribute doesn't make his team any better.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 02:23 PM
To each his own I guess.



I'm not trying to say that he's better than BBQ, I'm just saying out of last years QB class he's showed the greatest long term promise.

I think nest year everyone is going to have VY figured out, hell we did for four quarters and then wiffed in OT.

TwinSisters
02-16-2007, 02:38 PM
I agree with your overall assessment but I thought Major threw a great deep ball. It wasn't deep as in arm strength deep but he hit a ton of those post patterns or seam patterns to guys like McGarity.

nope. Not for the NFL. I get this from Belichick and an interview that Major did a few years ago. He lacked the arm strength to even be a 3rd stringer.

So he went into coaching.

real
02-16-2007, 02:38 PM
I think nest year everyone is going to have VY figured out, hell we did for four quarters and then wiffed in OT.


This is what I don't get and what I find so amusing....

Going into college people said VY wouldn't succeed. I'd say he did o.k.

Going into the NFL people said he wouldn't succeed. Rookie of the year.


I'm not going to argue about VY anymore, because people used flawed logic when arguing against him. You think Cutler will get better, while the NFL "figures out" VY.

Questions: If Cutler can get better, why can't VY ?

If VY was, is, and has pretty much always performed better than Cutler what makes you think that it's going to change anytime soon ?

If the NFL is going to figure out VY, why can't they fiure out Cutler ?

santo
02-16-2007, 02:43 PM
Vince Young will get to the Super Bowl before Cutler does.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 02:48 PM
This is what I don't get and what I find so amusing....

Going into college people said VY wouldn't succeed. I'd say he did o.k.

Going into the NFL people said he wouldn't succeed. Rookie of the year.


I'm not going to argue about VY anymore, because people used flawed logic when arguing against him. You think Cutler will get better, while the NFL "figures out" VY.

Questions: If Cutler can get better, why can't VY ?

If VY was, is, and has pretty much always performed better than Cutler what makes you think that it's going to change anytime soon ?


If the NFL is going to figure out VY, why can't they fiure out Cutler ?

In no way has VY always performed better than Cutler.


What does Vince do besides run the ball on third down? When in any of my posts did a slight Vince? None. I said that he and Lienart did well on there perspective teams. Of course Vince stood out for the Titans, no offense but they didn't have the same clout as the Bronco's. I didn't say Vince cant' get better, but what is he going to do if teams start to contain him? Name one game where his arm won the game for the Titans?

HoustonFrog
02-16-2007, 02:48 PM
nope. Not for the NFL. I get this from Belichick and an interview that Major did a few years ago. He lacked the arm strength to even be a 3rd stringer.

So he went into coaching.

He definitely didn't have an NFL arm to throw the deep outs, etc. I'm just saying in college he hit alot of the seam type passes where he just lofted it up. Those same throws in the NFL would be picked. I was talking pure college.

HoustonFrog
02-16-2007, 02:51 PM
This is what I don't get and what I find so amusing....

Going into college people said VY wouldn't succeed. I'd say he did o.k.

Going into the NFL people said he wouldn't succeed. Rookie of the year.


I'm not going to argue about VY anymore, because people used flawed logic when arguing against him. You think Cutler will get better, while the NFL "figures out" VY.

Questions: If Cutler can get better, why can't VY ?

If VY was, is, and has pretty much always performed better than Cutler what makes you think that it's going to change anytime soon ?

If the NFL is going to figure out VY, why can't they fiure out Cutler ?

I could not agree more. I mean what does the guy have to do? In college they said he had no arm yet he improved and had the highest completion percentage his last year. Then people claim that teams can get by with guys hitting the underneath stuff ..like Manning did in the SB..yet it isn't good enough for him. Then he shows he can throw a pretty deep ball...did against us a few times..yet people still think he is just a runner. I'm not making foolish comparisons but people didn't figure out Steve Young or Staubach or others that liked to run. If the man can improve his throwing year by year then there is no reason he can't do what he has been doing because they will have to respect all things that he does. He showed marked improvement last year. I'm not going to go VY here and claim outlandish things. I just think people doubting him should sit back and learn by now.

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 02:55 PM
I could not agree more. I mean what does the guy have to do? In college they said he had no arm yet he improved and had the highest completion percentage his last year. Then people claim that teams can get by with guys hitting the underneath stuff yet it isn't good enough for him. Then he shows he can throw a pretty deep ball...did against us a few times..yet people still think he is just a runner. I'm not making foolish comparisons but people didn't figure out Steve Young or Staubach or others that liked to run. If the man can improve his throwing year by year then there is no reason he can't do what he has been doing because they will have to respect all things that he does. He showed marked improvement last year. I'm going to go VY here and claim outlandish things. I just think people doubting him should sit back and learn by now.



If he does more than run and improves his passing he will improve and become an invaluable asset. He even did fairly well in the PB. Time will tell who has the edge out of last years QB class and I think all three will be something special in thier own way. Nuff said!

TwinSisters
02-16-2007, 02:57 PM
Michael Vick runs a 4.3

That lone attribute doesn't make his team any better.

good call as usual.

I actually started typing about Vick in that same response, but backspaced it out after thinking about it a little. A deep ball throw is not the same as a running threat. There are too many differences in economy.

Vick's ability to break one does make his team better though. If for no other reason, it expands their running game by having a legit QB option. How reasonable is it to run your million dollar QB option is another debate. Mora didn't change it up any more than Ryan did for Cunnigham. ( but then Cunningham could throw a deep ball with accuracy and velocity, while Vick I am not so sure about )

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 03:32 PM
If he wants to sign with a team he can start for he will sign for about 2 years. Look at how we got stuck with Carr's deal after the 3 year option. In a fickle NFL market where teams change yearly there is no way someone will commit to him longterm unless it is a sweetheart deal that allows them to opt out.

The longer he signs, the longer we can stretch out any bonus we give him. We can cut him at anytime during that time..... but three years from now, he might be more opened to restructuring to a back ups contract.

So if we sign him for three years, $6 mil bonus, $3mil salary 1st year($4 mil second, $5 mil third) then we can cut him after the second year, and only have to worry about $2mil of dead money towards the cap.


If we sign him for two, with those same numbers, his cap hit will be more than what it would cost to keep David. With those numbers, it works out about the same as keeping David.

unless we can pull the ole rope-a-dope like they did to David with his $8mill bonus, two payments, half counted for the '05 & '06 season, then assign him as a June 1st cut & split his remaining bonus across the '07 & '08 season. That was freaking genius........ we save $5mil towards the cap by cutting him.

except they thought before hand, that he might be a casualty.

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 03:34 PM
I'm not trying to say that he's better than BBQ, I'm just saying out of last years QB class he's showed the greatest long term promise.

I think nest year everyone is going to have VY figured out, hell we did for four quarters and then wiffed in OT.

He threw for 270 yards in that game.

jerek
02-16-2007, 03:36 PM
I still say that Jay Cutler will be the most prominant QB from last years draft class. VY has great feet and can create when a play has gone bad. Cutler is a much better QB, that kid threw a 76 yard TD pass with no YAC. All air Jevon Walker caught the ball in-stride, inside of the end zone. VY is good I won't take that away from him,but that draft is done and over.

That is what I (and incidentally many pro scouts) believed as well. Strongest arm and best/most potential as a passer.

VY is dangerous because he is a very good runner and decent to good passer rolled into one. However until he improves both his arm and the consistency of his reads I don't see him as being "elite."

Texan_Bill
02-16-2007, 03:38 PM
He threw for 270 yards in that game.

Against our secondary? No way! :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 03:55 PM
Against our secondary? No way! :rolleyes: :sarcasm:

Well I was wrong anyway, he only threw for 200 yards against us. the other 70 were running(1 for a TD). But the point is we didn't have him figured out in that game, & then wiffed in OT.

The Titans passed on us for 200 yards. Not to shabby, considering the second half of the year, we only gave up 217 passing yards per game. That includes holding Peyton to 205, Brady to 125, and only giving up more than 205 yards to Jacksonville & Buffalo in our last 8 games.

HoustonFrog
02-16-2007, 03:55 PM
The longer he signs, the longer we can stretch out any bonus we give him. We can cut him at anytime during that time..... but three years from now, he might be more opened to restructuring to a back ups contract.

So if we sign him for three years, $6 mil bonus, $3mil salary 1st year($4 mil second, $5 mil third) then we can cut him after the second year, and only have to worry about $2mil of dead money towards the cap.


If we sign him for two, with those same numbers, his cap hit will be more than what it would cost to keep David. With those numbers, it works out about the same as keeping David.

unless we can pull the ole rope-a-dope like they did to David with his $8mill bonus, two payments, half counted for the '05 & '06 season, then assign him as a June 1st cut & split his remaining bonus across the '07 & '08 season. That was freaking genius........ we save $5mil towards the cap by cutting him.

except they thought before hand, that he might be a casualty.

I can see a restructure as a backup but many don't like thaat. They all think they can start. Good info none the less. Thanks TK.

Mr teX
02-16-2007, 03:56 PM
With Vy all things open up b/c of his running ability, which it's no coincidence that that is what he does best. He's like any other Qb in that you have to force him to do things that he's not comfortable with. contain him along with the running game & you should be ok. Every game i've seen him struggle in, it's b/c the opposition was able to contain him from running all over the place.

Silver Oak
02-16-2007, 04:05 PM
Well I was wrong anyway, he only threw for 200 yards against us. the other 70 were running(1 for a TD). But the point is we didn't have him figured out in that game, & then wiffed in OT.

The Titans passed on us for 200 yards. Not to shabby, considering the second half of the year, we only gave up 217 passing yards per game. That includes holding Peyton to 205, Brady to 125, and only giving up more than 205 yards to Jacksonville & Buffalo in our last 8 games.


In all fairness, Brady could have passed for 400 if they didn't have such a commanding lead early in the game. They went to running the ball primarily.

Trust me on this....he was my fantasy qb and I wanted more in that matchup!

Ibar_Harry
02-16-2007, 04:16 PM
I have said for some time that VY should pray every night and be thankful that the Texans didn't draft him. He wound up in the best place possible for him. He found a HC and a QB coach( one of the best in the business ) who were willing to adapt the team and play calling to his style of play.

The Texans drafted David and built a team around a style of play that is not compatible with his abilities. I have stated many times I did not know why the Texans drafted Carr in one sense. Capers wanted to run the ball and Carr was a passing QB. Even Kubiak's style really does not fit Carr and the team has never built an O-line capable of protecting the QB.

The zone blocking scheme was to take advantage of a good running game. Certainly DD fit into this scheme, but not David as the scheme is not ment to provide protection for the QB even when a pass is the called play. You can not use two different blocking schemes in the NFL and get away with it.

David and the Texans have been a bad marriage from the start. Too many words have now been spoken to ever reconsile the marriage. Folks, its over and thats all there is too it. I don't see anything on the horizon that will change that. It really is in David's best interest to go elsewhere. Management has so mismanaged the situation that it has gotten totally out of control. It all started with the VY thing last year and I said as much. David is simply not the kind of guy that's going to make waves, but you can bet he is taking it all in. I hope he finds peace where ever he goes.

Double Barrel
02-16-2007, 04:18 PM
Dah, how do you think AJ made the pro-bowl, after leading the AFC in drops.. who threw the ball.

yeah, AJ couldn't have done that for 31 other teams. His success in 2006 was all due to the QB throwing the ball. :ok: riiiiiight

ib4texans
02-16-2007, 04:46 PM
Well I was wrong anyway, he only threw for 200 yards against us. the other 70 were running(1 for a TD). But the point is we didn't have him figured out in that game, & then wiffed in OT.

The Titans passed on us for 200 yards. Not to shabby, considering the second half of the year, we only gave up 217 passing yards per game. That includes holding Peyton to 205, Brady to 125, and only giving up more than 205 yards to Jacksonville & Buffalo in our last 8 games.



I'm not sure why it's not to shabby when VY does it but when our QB throw anything around the 200 mark he is criticized for minimal yardage?

I know your stance on Carr TK, and I know you did'nt mention him in your post. I was just commenting on the irony!

tsip
02-16-2007, 05:05 PM
Dah, how do you think AJ made the pro-bowl, after leading the AFC in drops.. who threw the ball. Funny, the first couple of years David played.. the crying was about he threw too hard, and had too many int.'s. Of course there was the fact about poorest O-line was started without LT, poor protection. No change there after 5yrs. Now the best of the Carr haters are blaming poor line on Carr. He doesn't carry them, Dave is pulling his weight on team that doesn't give him protection, but keep asking him to adapt to changing coach's. Most haters are looking for the ball to be thrown down field, now the coaching doesn't want that.. so who gets the blame. Hey you believe in what you want. I hope you get your " QB " and I get too see Dave play with a better team... :shades:

...yeah, Kubiak wants Carr to 'dink and dunk' so he (Gary) can pay him top QB money and then gripe about the team not scoring!!

Texan_Bill
02-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Actually, the WC offense is predicated on shorter, underneath routes. It's a ball control offense. Although, to be more effective, you have to be able to stretch the field once in a while.

tsip
02-16-2007, 05:40 PM
I get excited about it. The reason I guess is that you ( or not you, but a defense ) have to give more respect to a deep field with a QB that can hit one.

It creates more room to make plays in. If a QB is real erratic or cannot throw a deep pass that well or quickly, then as a defense a guy slipping the safties is not that big of a concern ( in effect, you can concentrate on or cheat towards the line ).

Major Applewhite is a good example. He couldn't throw a deep pass and this limited his ability and value as a QB.

I wonder where some of you posters get your opinions from because it is certainly not the facts. "...limited ability and value as a QB." Did you know that Major is UT's all-time leader-in among other things- passing yds (between 8-9000) and 60tds? Did you know that Applewhite got these stats despite 'riding' the bench for a year and a half so Sims could start? Applewhie threw the ball all over the field and was a very accurate passer and didn't get 8000+ yds in 30 games by dinkin' and dunkin.'

Major was not drafted by the pros because of his bad knees (limited mobility) and height. He was signed by the Patriots as a FA and eventually signed on by the Pats but-because of his knees-gave back his signing bonus...since then, he has become a 'top notch' coach moving up the collegiate ladder--now on Nick Saban's staff at Alabama.

http://riceowls.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/applewhite_major00.html

tsip
02-16-2007, 06:02 PM
Actually, the WC offense is predicated on shorter, underneath routes. It's a ball control offense. Although, to be more effective, you have to be able to stretch the field once in a while.

The other emphasis is scoring points, which Kubiak mentioned at the end of the year.

Cutler only started 5 games but if you avg those 5 games over 16 you get the kind of stats that Carr has never had--3204yds/29tds/16ints/7.3ypa/42sacks/38throws between 20-40yds

Carr has had some of these #'s but not all in the same year. Cutler's sack totals are a little high --will be something to watch...

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 06:22 PM
I'm not sure why it's not to shabby when VY does it but when our QB throw anything around the 200 mark he is criticized for minimal yardage?

I know your stance on Carr TK, and I know you did'nt mention him in your post. I was just commenting on the irony!


Irony is expecting Kudos when a 5 year starter performs as well as a rookie.

IF this were Vince's fifth year, and he's throwing for 208 yards in his better games, I'd be criticizing Vince as well.

I also mention that it is not too shabby because he did as well as Peyton & Brady against us.

QB75
02-16-2007, 06:26 PM
Vince Young will get to the Super Bowl before Cutler does.

Really. Why? How can you tell after one year?:shades:

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 06:31 PM
Really. Why? How can you tell after one year?:shades:

& what difference does it make anyway??

There will be plenty of SuperBowls to go around. Cutler may win one. Vince may win one. the Texans will win one. Carr might....


plenty to go around.

SESupergenius
02-16-2007, 06:41 PM
I still havn't seem one viable plan after we let Carr go.

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 06:50 PM
I still havn't seem one viable plan after we let Carr go.

Sign Garcia, Draft Levi Brown.

win 10 games.

TwinSisters
02-16-2007, 07:05 PM
I wonder where some of you posters get your opinions from because it is certainly not the facts. "...limited ability and value as a QB." Did you know that Major is UT's all-time leader-in among other things- passing yds (between 8-9000) and 60tds? Did you know that Applewhite got these stats despite 'riding' the bench for a year and a half so Sims could start? Applewhie threw the ball all over the field and was a very accurate passer and didn't get 8000+ yds in 30 games by dinkin' and dunkin.'

Major was not drafted by the pros because of his bad knees (limited mobility) and height. He was signed by the Patriots as a FA and eventually signed on by the Pats but-because of his knees-gave back his signing bonus...since then, he has become a 'top notch' coach moving up the collegiate ladder--now on Nick Saban's staff at Alabama.

http://riceowls.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/applewhite_major00.html

It is the fact and my opinion.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/peter_king/news/2002/06/06/king_insider/

Applewhite was one of the best college quarterbacks in America. But being one of the best QBs in the country does not always translate to NFL success. At best Applewhite has a mediocre arm, but his terrific leadership skills and his ability to play well in so many big games convinced the Patriots to sign him as a free agent when he went undrafted in April.

The Patriots, meanwhile, were being honest with Applewhite. After drafting LSU's Rohan Davey in the fourth round, they knew that it would take a preseason injury to one of the top three quarterbacks -- Tom Brady, Damon Huard, Davey -- for Applewhite to have any chance of making the team. Plus, New England coach Bill Belichick knew that Applewhite would never have the arm to succeed at a high level in the pros.

there are other interviews out there with Belichick's quotes
----

A football field is 53 1/3rd yards wide. The NFL uses every inch of it, and some when you consider the Rice/Carter one handed one foot in bounds out route.

College is nothing even remotely close to this.

Those quick hit passes are bullets that travel 20-25 yards. Mid range outs push up into 35-45 yards.

SESupergenius
02-16-2007, 07:24 PM
Sign Garcia, Draft Levi Brown.

win 10 games.
Not with that defense. People tend to forget them and make Carr the "Scapegoat boy". Giving him too much credit in wins and too much credit in losses. In case anyone was looking, the defense lost the game to VY, and that's when the Carr threads started to pour on.

tsip
02-16-2007, 07:25 PM
I still havn't seem one viable plan after we let Carr go.

It's not like we're having to replace an all-pro, just the opposite. 11 tds in his 5th year? Ball taken out of his hands? Legacy of under achievement that is everyone elses fault...coddled, special treatment, different set of rules...

...a state of mind so fragile that Capers had to call Carr before the team drafted Ragone, so he wouldn't be up set and take it the wrong way/absolutely zero competition for 5 yrs/and, when finally benched (and his replacement did a 'lights out) for poor play, Kubiak 'tripped' all over himself apologizing to David for benching him and publicly apologizes in the papers, claiming Carr was the 'man'...

...give me a break...what is it going to take for this team to start/play someone besides Carr?...absolutely insane!!

No, I don't want Jake. I think Huard would be a good choice, even Sage--draft a newbie to learn the ropes....don't talk about Huard's mobility in the WC because it's not there with Carr either nor is a vertical passing game of any kind.

There is nothing Carr has gone through that other QBs have not experienced--only difference is excuses and results---we have too much of the former and not much of the latter...

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 08:52 PM
Not with that defense. People tend to forget them and make Carr the "Scapegoat boy". Giving him too much credit in wins and too much credit in losses. In case anyone was looking, the defense lost the game to VY, and that's when the Carr threads started to pour on.

no, David fumbled the ball twice. once, right after Kubiak told him to take care of the ball. Then getting himself benched in that game, of all games, turned a lot of posters on David Carr.

Besides, in the game you are talking about, the Defense put the ball in the offenses hands twice with a score of 0-0. The offense couldn't do anything with it.

the defense holds Tennessee to 3 points. the offense gets the ball, and we get nothing.

Again, our defense holds them to three points. This time, we put the ball in Ron Dayne's hands, and viola....... instant offense. We get 7.

We force another punt, our offense does nothing. Our defense forces another punt before the half.

Ron Dayne leads us to another TD after the half.

Our defense forces another punt.

Ron Dayne tries to lead us to the endzone again, but you know one guy can only do so much..... so we punt.

Vince picks up 45 yards on two throws of a 63 yard TD drive. Our defense failed.

We put the ball in David's hands again. A 3 yard pass. a 2 yard pass. then an incomplete short pass. Then we punt.

OUr defense forces a 3 & Out.

Our offense........ well let's just say an illegal forward pass killed a drive. But we got a FG & the lead.

Our defense gives up a 90 yard drive for a touchdown.... 20-17, Tennessee.

David led us on a 31 yard drive for a FG. 20-20 with 2:08 left on the clock.

Our defense forces a 3 & Out, we get the ball back with 0:53 seconds on the clock, at the 10 yard line.

Our coach asks our QB what he'd like to do......

We take two knees. & go to OT.

QB75
02-16-2007, 09:04 PM
Sign Garcia, Draft Levi Brown.

win 10 games.

Sheer genius. Hello, Mr. McNair? Please replace Rick Smith immediately.

Honoring Earl 34
02-16-2007, 09:05 PM
Sheer genius. Hello, Mr. McNair? Please replace Rick Smith immediately.

That is Rick Smith .

infantrycak
02-16-2007, 09:44 PM
no, David fumbled the ball twice. once, right after Kubiak told him to take care of the ball. Then getting himself benched in that game, of all games, turned a lot of posters on David Carr.

We take two knees. & go to OT.

You are mixing two games together.

In the 1st TN game Carr fumbled twice and got benched. In the 2nd TN game Carr didn't fumble and the game went to OT.

thunderkyss
02-16-2007, 10:03 PM
You are mixing two games together.

In the 1st TN game Carr fumbled twice and got benched. In the 2nd TN game Carr didn't fumble and the game went to OT.

no I'm not.

I tried to use the words, "Besides, in the game you're talking about..." to differentiate between the two games.

I referenced the first game as the point where the number of anti-Carr posts really took an upswing.

The second game, the point was that the offense was given plenty of opportunities to take a lead, or extend a lead, or win the game in regulation.

I'm talking about two different games, there is no mix up there.

Goldeagle
02-17-2007, 10:36 AM
Wow, how about Andre throwing David under the bus? I hope the next QB has the guts to get in Johnson's grill the next time he drops a gimme, quits on a route, or lets a DB get inside him for a pick. Clearly, Carr doesn't.

Finally, the obliquitory question: Who is Adam Schein?


And after AJ cant catch passes and get open a time or two, he should keep his mouth shut.

Hulk75
02-17-2007, 04:48 PM
Your newsflash is wrong!

Why because Jake has played on better teams, a lot better teams. Rub the dirt out of your eyes, when comparring one player to another look at the team as a whole, thats the only way you can do it.

And Jake is not better then David Carr, not even close.

swtbound07
02-17-2007, 04:53 PM
still waiting for your response to getting called out on your 20 teams spewage on the other thread hulk.....

Honoring Earl 34
02-17-2007, 05:02 PM
Why because Jake has played on better teams, a lot better teams. Rub the dirt out of your eyes, when comparring one player to another look at the team as a whole, thats the only way you can do it.

And Jake is not better then David Carr, not even close.

Prove it .

Pantherstang84
02-17-2007, 08:42 PM
Well. Well. Well. Another Carr bashing/loving thread. Geez this board is getting predictable.

As someone who had Carr's back going into the year, I for one was very disappointed in his play in 06.

However, I saw some changes in the offense after we lost 3 offensive lineman in one game.

Naked bootlegs with the QB throwing on the run. What happened to those?

They seemed to work so well early in the season.

What happened to the zone blocking scheme?

Also, Carr locked into AJ way too much. Can he be improved?

I submit exhibit 1...Jake Plummer

If the Kube can improve Jake he can improve Carr.

Remember...The Kube O is not something that is learned overnight. Even "The Great Jake" other posters are clamoring for took a couple of years to get it down.

DC is the most durable player I have seen in this league in a long time. Name me one QB in the NFL that could have taken the kind of beating this kid has taken the last 5 years and still not be slurring his words like Mahommed Ali?

Name one! Even the great P. Manning and Tom Brady would be sitting in a rubber room with a helmet on if they had taken that kind of pounding.

I agree with other posters.

If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.

And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.:tease:

QB75
02-17-2007, 08:45 PM
Well. Well. Well. Another Carr bashing/loving thread. Geez this board is getting predictable.

As someone who had Carr's back going into the year, I for one was very disappointed in his play in 06.

However, I saw some changes in the offense after we lost 3 offensive lineman in one game.

Naked bootlegs with the QB throwing on the run. What happened to those?

They seemed to work so well early in the season.

What happened to the zone blocking scheme?

Also, Carr locked into AJ way too much. Can he be improved?

I submit exhibit 1...Jake Plummer

If the Kube can improve Jake he can improve Carr.

Remember...The Kube O is not something that is learned overnight. Even "The Great Jake" other posters are clamoring for took a couple of years to get it down.

DC is the most durable player I have seen in this league in a long time. Name me one QB in the NFL that could have taken the kind of beating this kid has taken the last 5 years and still not be slurring his words like Mahommed Ali?

Name one! Even the great P. Manning and Tom Brady would be sitting in a rubber room with a helmet on if they had taken that kind of pounding.

I agree with other posters.

If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.

And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.:tease:

Congratulations! Someone who gets it. I certainly hope that Smith and Kubiak see it that way. :highfive:

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 08:46 PM
Why because Jake has played on better teams, a lot better teams. Rub the dirt out of your eyes, when comparring one player to another look at the team as a whole, thats the only way you can do it.

And Jake is not better then David Carr, not even close.

Except his record and stats. I forgot, you saw him dodge a whole bunch of kids after they 5 Mississippi'ed him and his threw a laser to little Billy. Even a crappy Jake got the Cards to one playoff game. Your proof is no better than anyone elses.

QB75
02-17-2007, 08:50 PM
Except his record and stats. I forgot, you saw him dodge a whole bunch of kids after they 5 Mississippi'ed him and his threw a laser to little Billy. Even a crappy Jake got the Cards to one playoff game. Your proof is no better than anyone elses.

... and neither is your assertion.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 08:53 PM
... and neither is your assertion.

Isn't that what "anyone elses" means? Honestly I think someones stats under the same coach say something. Add to that the fact that he didn't have that same talent under a rudder-less Cards team and I'll give him credit for getting them to the playoffs and winning a game. Is he the savior?No. But what I just pointed out puts him ahead of who we have. I'll just never get why fans would like to "settle" for more of the same just to wait a year until we can draft a better guy. Doesn't the reaction of Duante and others last year make anyone go "hmmmm", maybe the team is ready for something else and are tired of the questions.

QB75
02-17-2007, 08:56 PM
Isn't that what "anyone elses" means? Honestly I think someones stats under the same coach say something. Add to that the fact that he didn't have that same talent under a rudder-less Cards team and I'll give him credit for getting them to the playoffs and winning a game. Is he the savior?No. But what I just pointed out puts him ahead of who we have.

No it doesn't. Same coach but different team. Can't compare.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 08:58 PM
No it doesn't. Same coach but different team. Can't compare.

Except the Cards info I posted. They didn't have the talent around him. The "anyone else" comment meant that none of us know who would be better at this point. We only have stats as a comparison.

thunderkyss
02-17-2007, 09:49 PM
No it doesn't. Same coach but different team. Can't compare.

Just Curious.

Do you think the Cards should have stuck with Warner??

Do you think the 'boys should have stuck with Bledsoe??

Do you think the Dolphins should have stuck with Cullpepper??

Do you think the Titan's should have stuck with Collins??

Do you think the Raiders should have stuck with Brooks??

QB75
02-17-2007, 10:04 PM
Just Curious.

Do you think the Cards should have stuck with Warner??

Do you think the 'boys should have stuck with Bledsoe??

Do you think the Dolphins should have stuck with Cullpepper??

Do you think the Titan's should have stuck with Collins??

Do you think the Raiders should have stuck with Brooks??

No, no, no, no, and no. Fortunately these teams had an opportunity to upgrade: Leinart, Romo, Harrington, Young...... But I do think that the Texans should stay with Carr more year. I don't want an old veteran and I don't see a young QB that's available. If Plummer is all we can get, I'd rather spend the dollars building up the rest of the team, give Carr another year, and see how it goes.

Texian
02-17-2007, 10:12 PM
Just Curious.

Do you think the Cards should have stuck with Warner?? vs Plummer, yes

Do you think the 'boys should have stuck with Bledsoe??vs Plummer, yes

Do you think the Dolphins should have stuck with Cullpepper??vs Plummer, no until Culpepper is fully recovered

Do you think the Titan's should have stuck with Collins??vs Plummer, yes

Do you think the Raiders should have stuck with Brooks??vs Plummer, toss up, pick your poison

Lienart vs Plummer = Lienart
Romo vs Plummer = Romo
Harrington vs Plummer = Plummer
Young vs Plummer = Young
Walters vs Plummer = Walters

The Pencil Neck
02-17-2007, 10:34 PM
If you can't upgrade the position, you have to keep him. Wait for a better QB class in the 08 draft and get your new franchise QB. If you wanted to upgrade through FA, Drew Brees was the guy you should have went after.

And no! Chris Simms, Sage Rosenfels, Jake Plummer or <insert your favorite backup QB name here> would not be an upgrade.:tease:

This is what it all boils down to. Whether, in your opinion, it's possible to upgrade the QB position by going to someone other than Carr. And that's the point of all the discussion. Some people think that Carr is better than the alternatives and some people think that the alternatives are better than Carr. In my opinion, which is different than yours but just as valid (ie, either of us could be wrong), Carr has been irreparably broken and there are many QB's out there that would be an upgrade. A significant upgrade.

Why do you think Carr would be hard to replace?

Pantherstang84
02-17-2007, 11:04 PM
This is what it all boils down to. Whether, in your opinion, it's possible to upgrade the QB position by going to someone other than Carr. And that's the point of all the discussion. Some people think that Carr is better than the alternatives and some people think that the alternatives are better than Carr. In my opinion, which is different than yours but just as valid (ie, either of us could be wrong), Carr has been irreparably broken and there are many QB's out there that would be an upgrade. A significant upgrade.

Why do you think Carr would be hard to replace?

I just don't buy into the ABC (Anyone But Carr) train of thought. He's not a great QB and probably has been too damaged. However, that anyone could be someone like A. Brooks.

Like others have said. With his contract, it would be very difficult to get enough value in return. If it makes people sleep better, renegotiate his contract. Make him compete for the starting job. Whatever.

I do not think you could get someone like Garcia, Huard, or Schaub to come in learn the offense and get the Texans to the playoffs next year. This team has way too many holes to fill.

Money that would be spent to get a washed up, has been/never was, like Plummer could be better spent addressing the other needs.

Face it. Casserly/Capers did significant damage to the team with their personnel moves. Anyone remember Tony Boselli?

It will take another year or two to dig out of the hole they put the Texans into.

Just grin and bear it until a quality young QB comes along in 08 draft and work on the other areas needing fixing.

Plummer = Carr 5 years from now.

thunderkyss
02-17-2007, 11:11 PM
No, no, no, no, and no. Fortunately these teams had an opportunity to upgrade: Leinart, Romo, Harrington, Young...... But I do think that the Texans should stay with Carr more year. I don't want an old veteran and I don't see a young QB that's available. If Plummer is all we can get, I'd rather spend the dollars building up the rest of the team, give Carr another year, and see how it goes.

& there is my question. What would make anyone think those guys are upgrades over anyone?? None of them have played a down in the NFL, and they all replaced QBs with proven trackrecords, and accolades out the wazoo.

Lienart
...replaced Kurt Warner..... Kurt's a ProBowler, League MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and SuperBowl champion. Personally, I don't believe the decision to go to Warner was because they thought Leinart gave them a better shot to win, but because they knew they weren't going anywhere, and they might as well get the rook some NFL experience..... you know, get the jitters out now, since they don't have a chance.

Romo
... replaced Bledsoe..... Led his team to the SuperBowl. Multible ProBowls, and his career stats are right up there with all the greats. Personally, I wouldn't have sat Bledsoe.... he's got experience, & he can make all the throws. If the Cowboys were going to the SuperBowl, it was going to be on the legs of Barber & Jones. If their Secondary wasn't like ours, Bledsoe wouldn't have had to take so many chances to stay in the game. Romo hadn't played a down, and it was pretty gutsy for Bill to put Romo in after he kept saying the kid wasn't ready.

Harrington
... over Cullpepper. Joey has shown zip, zilch, nada in the NFL. & I'm a fan. Cullpepper has done it all, short of playing in a Super Bowl. Who'd have thunk Harrington would be more effective??

Young
... over Collins. Regardless what Collins has done, he's become a bit of a joke over the last two..... three years. I think the only reason Tennessee signed him was so the fans wouldn't think Vince ruined their shot at the play-offs.

If you called all those changes, my hats off to you. You've got a better eye than I do.

thunderkyss
02-17-2007, 11:12 PM
Lienart vs Plummer = Lienart
Romo vs Plummer = Romo
Harrington vs Plummer = Plummer
Young vs Plummer = Young
Walters vs Plummer = Walters

I don't expect to see Plummer in Houston.

Texian
02-17-2007, 11:15 PM
This is what it all boils down to. Whether, in your opinion, it's possible to upgrade the QB position by going to someone other than Carr. And that's the point of all the discussion. Some people think that Carr is better than the alternatives and some people think that the alternatives are better than Carr. In my opinion, which is different than yours but just as valid (ie, either of us could be wrong), Carr has been irreparably broken and there are many QB's out there that would be an upgrade. A significant upgrade.

Why do you think Carr would be hard to replace?

For me it is a little more complicated than that. I will try to simplify my explanation. Last year they gave Carr $13,000,000, 8 in signing bonus 5 in salary. Less than a year later they decide, it is time to get rid of Carr and bring in Plummer. Plummer will want a minimum of $8-10 million in gaurantees.
What will Plummer give you? Not much more than Carr, if any, could be worse.
This time next year they realize Plummer is not the answer, they are out over $20,000,000 in two years and they still don't have a QB. There is not a QB in league that makes $10,000,000 a year.

BS, stop the insanity. Quit throwing away money and live with your mistake. Give Sage a fair chance and make for the best plans in 08 to fix the QB long term if things don't work out. Take the money you save from not cutting Carr and the money you save from not signing Plummer and use it to sign Luke Pettigout. Sage, Carr and Van Pelt may the best man win.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 11:17 PM
No, no, no, no, and no. Fortunately these teams had an opportunity to upgrade: Leinart, Romo, Harrington, Young...... But I do think that the Texans should stay with Carr more year. I don't want an old veteran and I don't see a young QB that's available. If Plummer is all we can get, I'd rather spend the dollars building up the rest of the team, give Carr another year, and see how it goes.

Here is what I don't get and none of you, myself included can answer. Romo was a 3rd stringer all his life and pretty much a guy no one was talking about UNTIL Parcells had the guts to replace Bledsoe. All of a sudden the line of the Cowboys looked alot better, etc. None of you can sit here and say that Romo is an upgrade on anyone on the list pre-replacement. Same with Leinart..a rookie who hadn't played or Young, whom many on this board said couldn't hold Carr's or others jock strap. Harrington was a castoff and was backing up an ex-pro bowler who was supposed to get the Dolphins to the SB. So how can any one you without hindsight say that these guys were/are better. Yet we are supposed to ignore the fact that MAYBE Rosenfels and Plummer might be better than our alternative? You are making the anti-Carr argument. Guys who weren't supposed to play and who were backups or rookies making a difference. The fact that Plummer actually won with Arizona makes it even more considering some above are saying Plummer is Carr in 5 years..with the exception of a playoff win on a horrible team.

P.S..I'm looking up and seeing TK wrote some similar things. Sorry. I just don't get the circular reasoning which makes no sense. The only reason people are answering those QBs are better is because of hindsight...at the time they were inserted they were non-entities. Sound familiar. Without seeing what else they can do, none of those aother guys would have improved their team.

Pantherstang84
02-17-2007, 11:32 PM
The fact that Plummer actually won with Arizona makes it even more considering some above are saying Plummer is Carr in 5 years..with the exception of a playoff win on a horrible team.



I guess there are 2 different trains of thought here....

1. Just get to the playoffs at 10-6. Lose in the first round with an old QB that will have to be replaced again.

2. Build a dynasty.

For me. I prefer option #2.

If you can really upgrade at the QB position, with a young QB. Then go for it.

If you want Sage, make him compete for the job. Make Carr compete for the job. Hell. Make Van Pelt compete for the job. Cut Carr's salary. I don't really care.

The laundry list for the Texans is almost as long as the Federal Budget document the President sends to Congress.

Please...

Spend the money wisely. Don't ignore the other obvious problems on the team by just focusing on the QB spot.

You can have a great QB.

But if your defense is horrible. No running game. No O line.

The results will be the same.

If you want option #2, then the 08 draft is your best shot for a QB upgrade unless someone like Matt Hasselbeck falls into your lap this off season.

HoustonFrog
02-17-2007, 11:57 PM
I guess there are 2 different trains of thought here....

1. Just get to the playoffs at 10-6. Lose in the first round with an old QB that will have to be replaced again.

2. Build a dynasty.

For me. I prefer option #2.

If you can really upgrade at the QB position, with a young QB. Then go for it.

If you want Sage, make him compete for the job. Make Carr compete for the job. Hell. Make Van Pelt compete for the job. Cut Carr's salary. I don't really care.

The laundry list for the Texans is almost as long as the Federal Budget document the President sends to Congress.

Please...

Spend the money wisely. Don't ignore the other obvious problems on the team by just focusing on the QB spot.

You can have a great QB.

But if your defense is horrible. No running game. No O line.

The results will be the same.

If you want option #2, then the 08 draft is your best shot for a QB upgrade unless someone like Matt Hasselbeck falls into your lap this off season.

OK, if we follow your scenario then you sign Plummer to go 10-6 and lose in the first round while he starts again in year #2 with the rookie of your choice learning the system from a guy who has gone to the playoffs multiple times under the coach OR you have a rookie from 07 learn under the same guy too. That's just from your scenario....without the drama of the QB deal we have now. There is no reason why you can't slihghtly upgrade and still build that dynasty with a rookie. You can still upgrade in other areas especially after we just did in the last draft.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 12:06 AM
OK, if we follow your scenario then you sign Plummer to go 10-6 and lose in the first round while he starts again in year #2 with the rookie of your choice learning the system from a guy who has gone to the playoffs multiple times under the coach OR you have a rookie from 07 learn under the same guy too. That's just from your scenario....without the drama of the QB deal we have now.

If you want Sage, make him compete for the job. Make Carr compete for the job. Hell. Make Van Pelt compete for the job. Cut Carr's salary. I don't really care.


Sorry. You won't change my mind on ABC or Plummer. We will have to agree to disagree.

Plummer will want too much cash. We have to spread the money around.

Get by with the 3 QBs you already have for the time being. The bed was made, now we have to lay in it.

If Kubiak did wonders for Plummer (I mean we are talking about Jake Plummer right?), he can do wonders for the other QBs we already have.

The Denver retreads are already getting old with me.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 12:11 AM
Sorry. You won't change my mind on ABC or Plummer. We will have to agree to disagree.

Plummer will want too much cash. We have to spread the money around.

Get by with the 3 QBs you already have for the time being. The bed was made, now we have to lay in it.

If Kubiak did wonders for Plummer (I mean we are talking about Jake Plummer right?), he can do wonders for the other QBs we already have.

Anyone who has watched the NFL knows that not all QBs are created equally. The sad part is that the convo is Jake v. Carr. That is sad in itself. The biggest problem is that you can only "get by" for so long. That is why you start losing the AJs and others to free agency. I'll agree to disagree though and I'll take that 10-6 and the Texans first playoff appearance. I think most would. One of the first things you do to change a team is to change the atmosphere of losing. Another "get by" year doesn't do it.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 12:15 AM
Anyone who has watched the NFL knows that not all QBs are created equally. The sad part is that the convo is Jake v. Carr. That is sad in itself. The biggest problem is that you can only "get by" for so long. That is why you start losing the AJs and others to free agency. I'll agree to disagree though and I'll take that 10-6 and the Texans first playoff appearance. I think most would. One of the first things you do to change a team is to change the atmosphere of losing. Another "get by" year doesn't do it.

If Kubiak had not told McNair to pull the $8,000,000 trigger last year, I might tend to agree with you.

And remember...

Plummer did not just click under Kubiak his first year either.

Hulk75
02-18-2007, 12:18 AM
still waiting for your response to getting called out on your 20 teams spewage on the other thread hulk.....

What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

swtbound07
02-18-2007, 12:22 AM
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

Nothing you say means anything to anybody. You lie because you don't know how to do anything else to try and save your brothers reputation in this place. I pointed out how mathmatically 20 teams couldn't possibly want carr as their starter. Just show me how im wrong on one? I have a saying too....The hulk doth protest too much

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 12:26 AM
If Kubiak had not told McNair to pull the $8,000,000 trigger last year, I might tend to agree with you.

And remember...

Plummer did not just click under Kubiak his first year either.


Well we agree that we are stuck because of that contract however I don't think the hit for this year would be enough to stop what we should try and do. ....and ummmmm

Jake was 9-2 his first year under him with a 91.2 QB rating. Ratings are not the biggest thing to me but he was 62.6 percent with 15 TDs and 7 ints in 11 games. That isn't a bad "click."

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 12:30 AM
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

Boom goes the credibility dynamite. He'd be gone.

SamuraiSword
02-18-2007, 01:20 AM
Here is what I don't get and none of you, myself included can answer. Romo was a 3rd stringer all his life and pretty much a guy no one was talking about UNTIL Parcells had the guts to replace Bledsoe. All of a sudden the line of the Cowboys looked alot better, etc. None of you can sit here and say that Romo is an upgrade on anyone on the list pre-replacement. Same with Leinart..a rookie who hadn't played or Young, whom many on this board said couldn't hold Carr's or others jock strap. Harrington was a castoff and was backing up an ex-pro bowler who was supposed to get the Dolphins to the SB. So how can any one you without hindsight say that these guys were/are better. Yet we are supposed to ignore the fact that MAYBE Rosenfels and Plummer might be better than our alternative? You are making the anti-Carr argument. Guys who weren't supposed to play and who were backups or rookies making a difference. The fact that Plummer actually won with Arizona makes it even more considering some above are saying Plummer is Carr in 5 years..with the exception of a playoff win on a horrible team.

P.S..I'm looking up and seeing TK wrote some similar things. Sorry. I just don't get the circular reasoning which makes no sense. The only reason people are answering those QBs are better is because of hindsight...at the time they were inserted they were non-entities. Sound familiar. Without seeing what else they can do, none of those aother guys would have improved their team.

but,but,but ROMO is supposed to be a backup quarterback for his entire career!! :sarcasm:

Why not get Sage a shot in my opinion.

thunderkyss
02-18-2007, 01:32 AM
BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

So we are actually shopping Carr?? Or is that still just media propaganda??

& are we talking high first round, mid first round, or late?? Just so I can update my mock.


Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.


Ok....



Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.


Glad to hear that.

And Carr is better then Jake.


That is not the point.


Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

:confused:

Hey......... if David goes on to the 49ers(or where ever), would you still be here rooting with us for the Texans to win??

TwinSisters
02-18-2007, 01:45 AM
Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.


This is good news.

Because I just got through with talking to Jesus and Jesus said that Carr needs to be headed to Oakland. There's plenty of proselytizing that needs to be done there. Those black sheep have fallen on a wayward path and are in dire need of a good shepherd. Randy, Jerry, Oxhead, and Warren need some guidance... and Dave's the Man to show them the Way.

Jesus said the Texans need not worry. Kurt Warner is going to sign for a league minimum ( and he is the best lead prayer in the NFL and will bring his buddy Faulk to the shindig ).

Jesus also said he doesn't like Jake either. As snakes are normally bad for everyone all the way round.

tsip
02-18-2007, 02:12 AM
I just don't buy into the ABC (Anyone But Carr) train of thought. He's not a great QB and probably has been too damaged. However, that anyone could be someone like A. Brooks.

Like others have said. With his contract, it would be very difficult to get enough value in return. If it makes people sleep better, renegotiate his contract. Make him compete for the starting job. Whatever.

I do not think you could get someone like Garcia, Huard, or Schaub to come in learn the offense and get the Texans to the playoffs next year. This team has way too many holes to fill.

Money that would be spent to get a washed up, has been/never was, like Plummer could be better spent addressing the other needs.

Face it. Casserly/Capers did significant damage to the team with their personnel moves. Anyone remember Tony Boselli?

It will take another year or two to dig out of the hole they put the Texans into.

Just grin and bear it until a quality young QB comes along in 08 draft and work on the other areas needing fixing.

Plummer = Carr 5 years from now.

We're not talking about 'playoffs' next year--we're talking about scoring points--avg 12 tds/yr (16 best) for 5 seasons, for example, is not going to be something that almost any body can not better...-except Carr,maybe, as he slipped to 11...

tsip
02-18-2007, 09:28 AM
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

It's real simple--credible posters back up their statements. Unfortunately for you, Carr is what Carr is and you can't change that.

Think about it. What does Carr have to offer any team? For starters-just to even see what Carr can do-a team has to surround him with a 'perfect' environment. It's not only players but schemes/play calling/decision making--everything has to be in place for Carr to even try to succeed. With cap considerations, how many teams have the monies available to upgrade the personnel they'll need for Carr.

Too, teams that are already set at almost every position are more than likely settled at QB. Carr is a gamble, not a sure thing by any means, and is expensive. What will Carr give a team for $5 million that a min pay QB won't?

Bottom line for a QB is putting up wins...Houston is already entrenched as the worse 5 yr old franchise in NFL history in winning percentage, below the likes of Tampa Bay and New Orleans.

I just hope enough of your BS is factual- 1 st rd draft choice, bring it on-to get Carr to another team...

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 10:03 AM
but,but,but ROMO is supposed to be a backup quarterback for his entire career!! :sarcasm:

Why not get Sage a shot in my opinion.

LOL..good one..exactly and my point. Every person they named above was considered damaged/mediocre goods until playing and now all of a sudden those teams could upgrade because of talent (eye roll)

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 10:41 AM
We're not talking about 'playoffs' next year--we're talking about scoring points--avg 12 tds/yr (16 best) for 5 seasons, for example, is not going to be something that almost any body can not better...-except Carr,maybe, as he slipped to 11...

Ok then. Go get Brooks from Oakland. I'm sure he is available. ABC right?

Johnny Utah
02-18-2007, 11:08 AM
I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Someone is lying to you. LOL. First round pick. Not a chance in hell someone would offer that, and not a chance in hell the Texans would turn that down.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 11:11 AM
Ok then. Go get Brooks from Oakland. I'm sure he is available. ABC right?

I'm not sure why ABC keeps coming up. We have discussed the people who have a possibility and everytime we make an argument...like the QBs that got named off, it comes back to something like Brooks. No one wants Brooks.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 11:15 AM
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

BTW, I forgot this last night Hulk. The way the NFL usually works is that the GM and owner and coach start receiving trade scenarios from other GMs, etc. During this period, unless their is a no-trade clause that needs to be waived, the players involved, because they are still with the team, usually don't get the heads up on what is going on. Sometimes they are the last to hear. I'm sure Dave isn't getting daily calls as to "hey we don't want you here anymore but there are 20 teams that want you." You don't alienate your players and they aren't privy to the trade offers..like fantasy #1s, etc. So your whole scenarios isn't really in the realm of NFL reality. Add that to the fact that I'm sure their family isn't sitting there finding this info out either. That isn't how NFL teams work.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 11:19 AM
I'm not sure why ABC keeps coming up. We have discussed the people who have a possibility and everytime we make an argument...like the QBs that got named off, it comes back to something like Brooks. No one wants Brooks.

If you look at the previous posts, the poster was saying "almost anyone" could do a better job than Carr. I was merely illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

Within this thread itself there are posters saying a high school QB could do a better job. We really need maintain some levity here.

Yes. There are factions on this mb that want to see Carr gone no matter the consequences.

Switching gears for a moment...

The Texans have already made one huge blunder on a QB contract. I would hate to see the Texans make another one with little or temporary gain.

tsip
02-18-2007, 12:02 PM
Ok then. Go get Brooks from Oakland. I'm sure he is available. ABC right?

Like many posters, you can't tell us what Carr has done in 5 yrs that warrant keeping him longer. True, we've heard all the ways that other people and other things have held David back. The bottom line, though, is that Carr hasn't achieved desired results.

OK. Aaron Brooks. I didn't bring up Brooks, you did. And, it's obvious you don't think Brooks is any good and Carr is so much better, right? OK, let's compare their 5 yr stats as starters--

CARR BROOKS

YDS 13391 17642
YPA 6.47 6.84
TDS 111 59
COMPLETIONS(20-40+ yds) 164 274
QB Rating 76 79

Now, you don't have to go into all the excuses why Brooks stats (and W-L) are so much better--certainly, he had better 'circumstances' than Carr--except for last year.

My point is that these 'blind' statements by :homer: homer's destroy your credibilty.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 12:24 PM
Like many posters, you can't tell us what Carr has done in 5 yrs that warrant keeping him longer. True, we've heard all the ways that other people and other things have held David back. The bottom line, though, is that Carr hasn't achieved desired results.

OK. Aaron Brooks. I didn't bring up Brooks, you did. And, it's obvious you don't think Brooks is any good and Carr is so much better, right? OK, let's compare their 5 yr stats as starters--

CARR BROOKS

YDS 13391 17642
YPA 6.47 6.84
TDS 111 59
COMPLETIONS(20-40+ yds) 164 274
QB Rating 76 79

Now, you don't have to go into all the excuses why Brooks stats (and W-L) are so much better--certainly, he had better 'circumstances' than Carr--except for last year.

My point is that these 'blind' statements by :homer: homer's destroy your credibilty.

OK then. Go get him if he is your man.

For those of you who like to pull things out of context to fit your argument and have not read my entire discussion in this thread, let me summarize my whole take on the QB situation in Houston.

1. I'm not defending DC.
2. If you are going to get rid of him, you better get a significant upgrade in return and be prepared to take the cap hit.
3. You who are advocating writing the cap hit off, will wish you had that money to fill the other significant holes in this team.
4. The pickings are slim to none this off season to upgrade the QB position in either the draft or FA. If Plummer is available, he will want DC type money and a 3-4 year deal. No sale in my book.
5. If you are serious about building a dynasty, your best bet at upgrading the QB is in the 08 off season. Great QB class coming up.
6. There are plenty of holes to fill on the Texans. Work on those this off season.
7. Let Carr, Rosenfels, Van Pelt compete for the starting job. If Sage is that much better, let him start.

Don't git rid of your QB for the sake of doing it. Be smart about it.

I trust the Texan's front office will do just that. They will be smart when deciding what to do about the QB situation.

True the QB is probably the most important position on the team. But you have to have an o line, defense, and running game.

No more Denver retreads.

I want the Texans to be a dynasty, not the Dallas Cowboys under their current ownership.

Go ahead and twist around this post out of context to justify your argument and sleep better at night.

You are the last person that should be trying diminish credibility. Brooks? BROOKS? rotflmao

Go ahead stat boy. Your turn. Can you show me some stats that proves that Riley Dodge from Southlake Carroll High School is a better NFL QB than Carr too?

Honoring Earl 34
02-18-2007, 12:54 PM
I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Was there a bean stalk involved ?

phan1
02-18-2007, 04:09 PM
I don't see why people are saying Oakland would be interested in Carr. The Raiders Offense is worse than ours, and Brooks still outplayed Carr! If there was one game that said, "I'm not sure Carr can be our future QB", than that's it!

But yeah, the only team I see fitting of Carr is Minnesota. I think the Bears would sooner go with Griese than Carr, and Guden knows Carr ain't the guy to run his WCO (as Carr has shown just this year). I just can't think of anywhere else that Carr would be given a starting job.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 04:24 PM
OK then. Go get him if he is your man.

For those of you who like to pull things out of context to fit your argument and have not read my entire discussion in this thread, let me summarize my whole take on the QB situation in Houston.......

First, no one has taken your posts out of context but you keep throwing out things to cover for different arguments and they don't stick.

1) Your first of many points was Plummer = Carr 5 years from now and we should just wait it out...basically accept another year with Carr and even admitted to wanting a QB in 08. When it was pointed out that Plummers stats were not bad with Kubiak and that he actually won on a horrible Cards team...playoff win... you went to point #2...

2) That there was 2 ways to think of it and that you'd rather build a dynasty than take "10-6", a playoff loss and an old QB that will need to be replaced. But wait....you just said that you wanted a replacement or a guy for the future in 08...so what is the difference?You wouldn't want a 10-6 year with the playoffs and yet still get to do what you said you wanted which was find the man of the future in 08?......

3) So you agree to disagree but say it is a cap space thing...oh and the Denver retreads are getting old even though we really haven't brought in too many and our best back last season was Dayne. When I brought up we don't need another "get by" year or AJ and others might slip out in FA you said....

4) "Plummer did not just click under Kubiak his first year either." But Jake was 9-2 in 11 games had a 62.6 completion percentage with 15 TDs and 7 ints..a 91.2 QB rating...no response

5) It was back to ABC where it took a turn towards Brooks..I was out of it then...

I'm not picking on your posts and I know you had some other points in between. I'm just demonstrating how these arguments can go round and round and no matter what facts or points are made, there is always another answer. Some say that there are Carr haters that do it but this goes on all day. Anyways, I know you say you are in neither camp and are in between. But there are real legit arguments for bringing another person in and still looking toward the future. Have a great one!

TwinSisters
02-18-2007, 04:45 PM
I don't see why people are saying Oakland would be interested in Carr. The Raiders Offense is worse than ours, and Brooks still outplayed Carr! If there was one game that said, "I'm not sure Carr can be our future QB", than that's it!

Kiffin is a Bulldog.
The Raiders haven't drafted a QB worth anything since 1968.
Since then they have started 4 project QBs that have guided them to 3 Super Bowls ( Gannon ( 11 years ), Plunkett ( 8 ), Schroeder ( 4 ), Hostetler (8) ). Plus I don't even want to count the playoff games ( at least 11 years ).

Not to mention the other QBs like George, Collins.

Carr fits the menu item for Al Davis. Plus it would boost his market ratings over in Bakersfield. The fallen golden boy is back in black!

It would sell.

Now if only Oakland would pony up some draft picks for it.

2BCF
02-18-2007, 04:51 PM
Thank you Adam Schein, your check is in the mail!
Or did McNair FedEx the cash, either way thank you.
:excited:
Now somebody please take this "gem" off our hands.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 05:07 PM
First, no one has taken your posts out of context but you keep throwing out things to cover for different arguments and they don't stick.

1) Your first of many points was Plummer = Carr 5 years from now and we should just wait it out...basically accept another year with Carr and even admitted to wanting a QB in 08. When it was pointed out that Plummers stats were not bad with Kubiak and that he actually won on a horrible Cards team...playoff win... you went to point #2...

Actually, my point was that I do not consider Plummer a significant upgrade over Carr. I do not condone waiting another 5 years. If the FO can get rid of DC without swallowing a huge amount of cash in the process, I'm fine with it. But please don't give up our #8 pick overall to do it. Peterson could very well be available at that spot and we need to grab him.



2) That there was 2 ways to think of it and that you'd rather build a dynasty than take "10-6", a playoff loss and an old QB that will need to be replaced. But wait....you just said that you wanted a replacement or a guy for the future in 08...so what is the difference?You wouldn't want a 10-6 year with the playoffs and yet still get to do what you said you wanted which was find the man of the future in 08?......

If the FO thinks Plummer can be aquired without mortgaging the house, then I'm fine with it. I just don't think they can get him without a 3-4 yr. guaranteed contract and around $8 mil a year. Too expensive as far as I'm concerned for a short term solution.


3) So you agree to disagree but say it is a cap space thing...oh and the Denver retreads are getting old even though we really haven't brought in too many and our best back last season was Dayne. When I brought up we don't need another "get by" year or AJ and others might slip out in FA you said....

Fact: Most FAs leave teams for more money. Others leave for other reasons. If AJ leaves, it will be because of cash not because Plummer is not in Houston.

Having Ron Dayne as our best back is not saying much. IMO


4) "Plummer did not just click under Kubiak his first year either." But Jake was 9-2 in 11 games had a 62.6 completion percentage with 15 TDs and 7 ints..a 91.2 QB rating...no response

I tend to think his success in his first year under the Kube was because of a great supporting cast. I still don't think he is a significant upgrade.


5) It was back to ABC where it took a turn towards Brooks..I was out of it then...

I'm not picking on your posts and I know you had some other points in between. I'm just demonstrating how these arguments can go round and round and no matter what facts or points are made, there is always another answer. Some say that there are Carr haters that do it but this goes on all day. Anyways, I know you say you are in neither camp and are in between. But there are real legit arguments for bringing another person in and still looking toward the future. Have a great one!

The Brooks thing was too your credit sir. I just can't believe someone pulled some numbers off of a fantasy football site somewhere to justify their unbridled hatred toward DC.

Bottom line....

I think Rick Smith and Kubiak will do what they can to fill the holes. If they can get Plummer at a reasonable price and unload that albatross of a contract of DC's in the process, ok. I would consider it an upgrade (but not a significant one) without breaking the bank and I can live with that. I still say 08 is our best chance at a significant upgrade.

HoustonFrog
02-18-2007, 05:14 PM
Actually, my point was that I do not consider Plummer a significant upgrade over Carr. I do not condone waiting another 5 years. If the FO can get rid of DC without swallowing a huge amount of cash in the process, I'm fine with it. But please don't give up our #8 pick overall to do it. Peterson could very well be available at that spot and we need to grab him.




If the FO thinks Plummer can be aquired without mortgaging the house, then I'm fine with it. I just don't think they can get him without a 3-4 yr. guaranteed contract and around $8 mil a year. Too expensive as far as I'm concerned for a short term solution.



Fact: Most FAs leave teams for more money. Others leave for other reasons. If AJ leaves, it will be because of cash not because Plummer is not in Houston.

Having Ron Dayne as our best back is not saying much. IMO



I tend to think his success in his first year under the Kube was because of a great supporting cast. I still don't think he is a significant upgrade.



The Brooks thing was too your credit sir. I just can't believe someone pulled some numbers off of a fantasy football site somewhere to justify their unbridled hatred toward DC.

Bottom line....

I think Rick Smith and Kubiak will do what they can to fill the holes. If they can get Plummer at a reasonable price and unload that albatross of a contract of DC's in the process, ok. I would consider it an upgrade (but not a significant one) without breaking the bank and I can live with that. I still say 08 is our best chance at a significant upgrade.

Nice counter-post. Again, at least it is rational enough. We aren't too far off on our "wants" we both just see it from different angles. I don't want to give up the pick either. As far as FA, money is always tops but I also see where if the money is close (you can always use Texas' no income tax as a plus:)) a guy might go where it seem like they are more commited to winning...in their eyes. I can handle sound debates. It is the irrational yelling about the QB that get to me.

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 05:22 PM
Nice counter-post. Again, at least it is rational enough. We aren't too far off on our "wants" we both just see it from different angles. I don't want to give up the pick either. As far as FA, money is always tops but I also see where if the money is close (you can always use Texas' no income tax as a plus:)) a guy might go where it seem like they are more commited to winning...in their eyes. I can handle sound debates. It is the irrational yelling about the QB that get to me.

Fair enough and I think we have exhausted this topic. At least we can debate without name calling and mudslinging. Have a great day!:bubble:

tsip
02-18-2007, 06:44 PM
OK then. Go get him if he is your man.

For those of you who like to pull things out of context to fit your argument and have not read my entire discussion in this thread, let me summarize my whole take on the QB situation in Houston.

1. I'm not defending DC.
2. If you are going to get rid of him, you better get a significant upgrade in return and be prepared to take the cap hit.
3. You who are advocating writing the cap hit off, will wish you had that money to fill the other significant holes in this team.
4. The pickings are slim to none this off season to upgrade the QB position in either the draft or FA. If Plummer is available, he will want DC type money and a 3-4 year deal. No sale in my book.
5. If you are serious about building a dynasty, your best bet at upgrading the QB is in the 08 off season. Great QB class coming up.
6. There are plenty of holes to fill on the Texans. Work on those this off season.
7. Let Carr, Rosenfels, Van Pelt compete for the starting job. If Sage is that much better, let him start.

Don't git rid of your QB for the sake of doing it. Be smart about it.

I trust the Texan's front office will do just that. They will be smart when deciding what to do about the QB situation.

True the QB is probably the most important position on the team. But you have to have an o line, defense, and running game.

No more Denver retreads.

I want the Texans to be a dynasty, not the Dallas Cowboys under their current ownership.

Go ahead and twist around this post out of context to justify your argument and sleep better at night.

You are the last person that should be trying diminish credibility. Brooks? BROOKS? rotflmao

Go ahead stat boy. Your turn. Can you show me some stats that proves that Riley Dodge from Southlake Carroll High School is a better NFL QB than Carr too?

"OK. Aaron Brooks. I didn't bring up Brooks, you did."

"...stat boy." In all my posts, I don't call people names. It's not suppose to be allowed on this board but certain posters do it regularly-are you going to be one?

Pantherstang84
02-18-2007, 07:19 PM
"OK. Aaron Brooks. I didn't bring up Brooks, you did."

"...stat boy." In all my posts, I don't call people names. It's not suppose to be allowed on this board but certain posters do it regularly-are you going to be one?


Nice try but I'm not biting. Have a nice day.

NATHANHALE
02-18-2007, 07:36 PM
"The Brooks thing was too your credit sir. I just can't believe someone pulled some numbers off of a fantasy football site somewhere to justify their unbridled hatred toward DC."

Until you brought up Brooks and I verified his #'s on the NFL site, I had no idea he'd put up those kinds of #'s--111tds in 5 yrs!!!! Wow...so brand me and let me know who I want as QB next year (not Brooks, though)...have a good one,sport...



http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133233

The Pencil Neck
02-18-2007, 07:38 PM
I just don't buy into the ABC (Anyone But Carr) train of thought. He's not a great QB and probably has been too damaged. However, that anyone could be someone like A. Brooks.

It could be an Aaron Brooks but it could be the next Tom Brady. With Carr, we have a pretty good idea what we have and it's not very good. I don't want to bring in Aaron Brooks because he's as bad as what we have. I'm not a big fan of Plummer's but I think he'd be a lot more productive than Carr.

I don't agree with the idea of keeping a guy on the roster just because we paid him too much in an attempt to work some psychological magic and let the kid know we had faith in him and were in his corner. I thought we'd save about $2 mill if we let him go sooner rather than later; we eat a chunk of change either way but less if we let him go prior to... what?... June 1st? Why keep a guy on the roster if he can't earn a spot? If he CAN earn a spot, great. If he CAN improve his play, great. I just don't think he's going to.

My argument has never been to bring in someone who is as bad as Carr (like Brooks). My argument has been to bring in someone who is signifcantly better than Carr even though they might not be a long term solution. At the very heart of this argument is the belief (a belief that some people do not share) that Carr would not win the QB job in competition against most QB's in the league (including backups). That belief is not baseless; I came by that belief the hard way by watching his play.

thunderkyss
02-18-2007, 09:42 PM
"The Brooks thing was too your credit sir. I just can't believe someone pulled some numbers off of a fantasy football site somewhere to justify their unbridled hatred toward DC."

Until you brought up Brooks and I verified his #'s on the NFL site, I had no idea he'd put up those kinds of #'s--111tds in 5 yrs!!!! Wow...so brand me and let me know who I want as QB next year (not Brooks, though)...have a good one,sport...



http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/133233

I like Brooks. Always have. He's a gamer. Has a stronger arm than David, and is more mobile, and more elusive.

HE's a lot dumber than David, so go figure.

I've always thought he'd be a hell of a qB if he ever got a real coach to teach him the game. Haslette was a joke, and Art was even funnier.

The kids got problems....... no doubt. But he's got Talent, size, & a hell of an arm.

Hulk75
02-19-2007, 09:31 AM
It's real simple--credible posters back up their statements. Unfortunately for you, Carr is what Carr is and you can't change that.

Think about it. What does Carr have to offer any team? For starters-just to even see what Carr can do-a team has to surround him with a 'perfect' environment. It's not only players but schemes/play calling/decision making--everything has to be in place for Carr to even try to succeed. With cap considerations, how many teams have the monies available to upgrade the personnel they'll need for Carr.

Too, teams that are already set at almost every position are more than likely settled at QB. Carr is a gamble, not a sure thing by any means, and is expensive. What will Carr give a team for $5 million that a min pay QB won't?

Bottom line for a QB is putting up wins...Houston is already entrenched as the worse 5 yr old franchise in NFL history in winning percentage, below the likes of Tampa Bay and New Orleans.

I just hope enough of your BS is factual- 1 st rd draft choice, bring it on-to get Carr to another team...

Let me ask you, does Phillip Rivers have the perfect situation, best player in NFL history for his HB (the back up is not o shaby either), the best line in football, one of the best TEs and FBs in the league, has a stupid Defense and he lives in San Diego, now that sounds perfect. Why is it okay for some to have all that and not for others. Would you like me to do the teams of Peyton Manning, Ben, Brees, Romo, because it does not get any better yet all these guys are Pro Bowlers and have been protected for years now or right when they came into the leaugue.

And if it is all about wins what would you have to say about Rex Grossman, if it is about wins for a QB then Rex should have made the Pro Bowl, Right?

I am sorry that is the dumbest thing I have ever read, any successfull QB has had everything you have discribed. What you just said is plane stupid. So shacky play calling like he had for years, bad scheme for years should have made him a better QB? What the heck does that mean? SO SORRY that it takes sooooo much for a QB to do well, QBs should not have players atround him like Rivers does and Peyton does, QBs should not have the such things like Olines and Hall of Fame RBs, why should scheme even play a part in a QBs future and well being in the NFL. If he is good he will just be good no matter what, I am sorry that was retarted what you just wrote.

real
02-19-2007, 10:02 AM
MOVING CARR


Houston is trying to trade former No. 1 overall pick David Carr, and thinks it may have a taker be fore the draft.

Carr is scheduled to earn $5.5 million this year and $6 million next year. He already cashed an $8 million roster bonus from the team last year.

Minnesota and Oakland are the two rumored destinations, but don't count out Miami, which never has met a quarterback it wouldn't trade to get, or Kansas City.

By the way, Carr was one of three quarterbacks taken in the first round of the 2002 draft. The other two, Joey Harrington and Patrick Ramsey, haven't been so hot, either.

Should Houston move Carr, look for the Texans to attempt to swing a deal with Denver for veteran quarterback Jake Plummer.


http://www.nj.com/columns/times/eckel/index.ssf?/base/columns-0/117177544721420.xml&coll=5

Lucky
02-19-2007, 10:08 AM
Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him.
Did Walsh tell Kubiak the same thing?

Let me ask you, does David still want to play here? If he does, why doesn't he do a local TV, radio, or print interview saying so? A lot of fans would like to know what he's thinking right now.

cuppacoffee
02-19-2007, 11:32 AM
Did Walsh tell Kubiak the same thing?

Let me ask you, does David still want to play here? If he does, why doesn't he do a local TV, radio, or print interview saying so? A lot of fans would like to know what he's thinking right now.


Sounds like a good suggestion for TexanChick.

But...let me ask you this...What could be gained if Carr would do this?

Unlike the haters around here...Carr has chosen the high road. Not a lot he could say that would change the mind set around here.

T. Owens speaks out about what he thinks/wants and is mostly vilified for it. Go figure.

Not a criticism Lucky...just a thought.

:coffee:

Lucky
02-19-2007, 11:49 AM
But...let me ask you this...What could be gained if Carr would do this?
I'm not sure it's about "gain". Carr has every media outlet saying he's gone. The front office says that teams are calling about a possible trade. If I wanted to be with the Texans, I would at least say so publicly. Some fans would like to know what he thought about this past season and where he stands with the team. I don't see how that's the same as TO throwing his QB under the bus.

2BCF
02-19-2007, 11:51 AM
Did Walsh tell Kubiak the same thing?

Let me ask you, does David still want to play here? If he does, why doesn't he do a local TV, radio, or print interview saying so? A lot of fans would like to know what he's thinking right now.

Honestly, what DC thinks is irrelevant. It's a non-factor.
By speaking to the press about his opinion would just reflect more negatively on his situation. He's had 5 years to "think" here, time to process his thoughts elsewhere or retire.

srstex
02-19-2007, 12:36 PM
With all the negetive press & posters, obviously don't like stats cause Carr was 15th in the league as to QB rating, VY 30th, Jake 27th, and Rex was around 23rd. This does not say Carr is the best but apples to apples, Carr is the best out there available. Draft ?, well there are only two first round worthy QB's, and maybe Quinn will be there, I personally doubt it. Complain, complain, and complain some more, untill you have a BETTER QB, we have Carr. Plummer you say?, if we can pick him up after being cut, maybe, but only if he'll work for food.

thunderkyss
02-19-2007, 12:37 PM
Let me ask you, does Phillip Rivers have the perfect situation, best player in NFL history for his HB (the back up is not o shaby either), the best line in football, one of the best TEs and FBs in the league, has a stupid Defense and he lives in San Diego, now that sounds perfect. Why is it okay for some to have all that and not for others. Would you like me to do the teams of Peyton Manning, Ben, Brees, Romo, because it does not get any better yet all these guys are Pro Bowlers and have been protected for years now or right when they came into the leaugue.

And if it is all about wins what would you have to say about Rex Grossman, if it is about wins for a QB then Rex should have made the Pro Bowl, Right?

I am sorry that is the dumbest thing I have ever read, any successfull QB has had everything you have discribed. What you just said is plane stupid. So shacky play calling like he had for years, bad scheme for years should have made him a better QB? What the heck does that mean? SO SORRY that it takes sooooo much for a QB to do well, QBs should not have players atround him like Rivers does and Peyton does, QBs should not have the such things like Olines and Hall of Fame RBs, why should scheme even play a part in a QBs future and well being in the NFL. If he is good he will just be good no matter what, I am sorry that was retarted what you just wrote.

Everything you've just said could be said for Charlie Batch, Tim Couch, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, and a hundred others who just couldn't make it. JP Losman, Kyle Bollar, Billy Joe Tolliver, Billy Joe Hebert, etc.. etc..

What makes an offensive line look bad?? too many sacks, and not enough production in the run game. Over the last 3 years of the Capers crew's regime, our running game has been top 15 or top 10, but because of the sacks, they are considered among the worst in history. top 10, top 15, with a 3rd round RB, but among the worst in history.

Now if there was anyway at all to prove that the QB was responsible for the majority of those sacks, then they'd rank up there, at least with avg NFL.

But there is no way to prove it. who would believe that a QB in his right mind would just take 40 sacks a year??

If I believed for a second, that you would give a rats ass about the Texans W-Ls if Carr was on another team, then it would be worth my time to respond to every one of your silly posts...... but as it is, I'll just have to waste my time with you, because you just won't go away.

You wanna go ahead and believe that David belongs in this league, that's fine. You want to try to convince us, you're wasting your time. We've seen him for the last 5 years.

It's just like us going through 5 running backs in '06...... the line sucks, they couldn't open a whole with a Mack truck. But it doesn't matter, we've got to find someone who can produce with it. No one wants to hear the excuses, regardless how valid.

There isn't a QB in this league who would have started against the Giants IF they put the ball on the ground 3 times against Indy(losing 2), 3 times against Washington(loosing 2, plus the INT), twice against Miami(losing one + an INT), 2 INTs against Dallas, perfect in Jacksonville, but then an INT, and two fumbles against Tennessee.

It doesn't matter who is on the line. It doesn't matter who is in the backfield, it doesn't matter who your tightends are, & it doesn't matter who the WRs are. We need a QB to produce better than that. Especially when you've already changed the personnel at those other positions multiple times.

Your time would be better spent on the Vikings board, or the Raiders board, hyping David up, & telling them how he's going to deliver them to the promised land, and how we're a bunch of idiots with no patience or understanding of how you put together a football team.

Honoring Earl 34
02-19-2007, 01:15 PM
Sometimes there's no complaining or explaining .... it's a matter of did it get done .

NATHANHALE
02-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Let me ask you, does Phillip Rivers have the perfect situation, best player in NFL history for his HB (the back up is not o shaby either), the best line in football, one of the best TEs and FBs in the league, has a stupid Defense and he lives in San Diego, now that sounds perfect. Why is it okay for some to have all that and not for others. Would you like me to do the teams of Peyton Manning, Ben, Brees, Romo, because it does not get any better yet all these guys are Pro Bowlers and have been protected for years now or right when they came into the leaugue.

And if it is all about wins what would you have to say about Rex Grossman, if it is about wins for a QB then Rex should have made the Pro Bowl, Right?

I am sorry that is the dumbest thing I have ever read, any successfull QB has had everything you have discribed. What you just said is plane stupid. So shacky play calling like he had for years, bad scheme for years should have made him a better QB? What the heck does that mean? SO SORRY that it takes sooooo much for a QB to do well, QBs should not have players atround him like Rivers does and Peyton does, QBs should not have the such things like Olines and Hall of Fame RBs, why should scheme even play a part in a QBs future and well being in the NFL. If he is good he will just be good no matter what, I am sorry that was retarted what you just wrote.

...just get Carr out of Houston. What's going to happen if David doesn't go to one of those perfect places?...or,even worse, he does and it doesn't help!! Wow, guess thar's when you'll get out the 'mind' problems!! We'll see...

...one question...Jon Kitna had everything worse at Detroit last year than David and still threw for over 4000+ yds and 20+ tds--what's up with that?

Hulk75
02-19-2007, 01:29 PM
Did Walsh tell Kubiak the same thing?

Let me ask you, does David still want to play here? If he does, why doesn't he do a local TV, radio, or print interview saying so? A lot of fans would like to know what he's thinking right now.

He wants to play for a HC and team that wants him, Yes he would like to finish here, this is were he started, it was an expantion team there were going to be hard times for years he knew that comming and it would tick him off if he could not finish with the team just when they started to get some players. He just wants whatever is going to happen happen, I think and I am sure he does that he has earned the right to know about what is going on, for the most part we have heard everything from his agent and his business manager. I can tell you that they tell him that he is the starter and they are not shopping him, But take that for what it is worth. Cause we hear that, then we hear from his agent- KC, Baltimore, Carolina, Miami, Oakland, Tampa, Bills, Browns, Eagles, Jax, Minnesota, Bears, Lions, Green Bay, Redskins all want him. But whatever, he just would like to know if he is here or somewere else around March 1. He likes Houston he would love to stay here, but we will see. Kubes and them say he is staying and is the starter.

Hulk75
02-19-2007, 01:37 PM
...just get Carr out of Houston. What's going to happen if David doesn't go to one of those perfect places?...or,even worse, he does and it doesn't help!! Wow, guess thar's when you'll get out the 'mind' problems!! We'll see...

...one question...Jon Kitna had everything worse at Detroit last year than David and still threw for over 4000+ yds and 20+ tds--what's up with that?
What if it does help?
Yea I guess his 600 attempts dont play into that, compared to carrs 440.
22 ints also, how long would Carr have been here if he throw that many?

And having PASS happy Mike Martz did not make a difference either?

NATHANHALE
02-19-2007, 02:34 PM
What if it does help?
Yea I guess his 600 attempts dont play into that, compared to carrs 440.
22 ints also, how long would Carr have been here if he throw that many?

And having PASS happy Mike Martz did not make a difference either?

...send him to the Raiders where surely he can beat 7 passing tds and not get sacked more than 72 times

Do you look forward to the day when you don't have to make excuses for David?

...you know, you make a good point--send him to Detroit where any QB can put up #'s under Martz--that's it...problem solved...or is it???

...600 pass attempts?...well, you can blame that on Gary for not letting David throw the ball toward the end of the season...anything else?

...oh,yeah, almost forgot the intercepts...kudos to Carr for just tossing the ball a couple yds to get yac and minimize interceptions

Lucky
02-19-2007, 02:48 PM
Kubes and them say he is staying and is the starter.
If Kubiak did tell Carr that, and the team turns around and deals him anyway, that's pretty lame. If they are going to deal or release the guy, they should tell him so he can get on with his career. That would be the classy thing to do.

I'm still not convinced that Carr won't be traded or released, but at least I understand why you feel that way.

HOU-TEX
02-19-2007, 02:50 PM
This might be a little off topic, but it's a Carr thread. Here's a link to a Buc MB. It appears that a few of thier fans would love to have him. LOL! Well, let's hope they learn the hard way, like we did.:laughjump:

http://bbs.buccaneers.com/showthread.php?t=136383&page=1&pp=30

Honoring Earl 34
02-19-2007, 02:53 PM
I think it depends on the conversation and how it was said .

Did Kubiak say ... David we would never trade or cut you . In fact we can see you being our guy for years .

Maybe this is what was said ... David we are looking at all possibilities and we're not 100% sure anything will happen.

I've known folks to take this as an endorsement .

Double Barrel
02-19-2007, 03:30 PM
If Kubiak did tell Carr that, and the team turns around and deals him anyway, that's pretty lame. If they are going to deal or release the guy, they should tell him so he can get on with his career. That would be the classy thing to do.

I'm still not convinced that Carr won't be traded or released, but at least I understand why you feel that way.

After reading Hulk's post, I thought the same thing. How lame if they are leading him to believe that he's our starter in 2007, but then just deal him. It is a business, but there are ways to conduct business that are honorable, and other ways that are not so much.

I believe that Hulk believes what he is saying and is not just stirring the pot to stir it. I think the organization has led DC to think one way, regardless of what they are really thinking. I wouldn't expect them to tip their hands, but I'd also expect them to refrain from promising a player one thing while they do another.

real
02-19-2007, 03:46 PM
I don't believe that statement by Hulk...


Either Gary lied, or Hulk is lying. One of the two.


Hulk has speculated about trades, and teams that are interested in Carr(20, right?) too much for me to believe that they have word from Kubiak that David won't be traded. If you have been given information like that, you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing about it. If Kubes did tell y'all that, he must have not sounded too convincing, because it doesn't seem as if you feel too secure about the whole situation.

Texans_Chick
02-19-2007, 03:49 PM
What would you like me to do, tell you were and who i have heard it from? why in the bloody heck would i share anything with most! of you? there are people who know around here, I dont care to say who, they know.

Like I said what is my reson for lying? Why would I just make it up, you guys allready hate him so what does it matter right? I drop stuff on here from time to time for people who acctually care and trust me.

I write things and you think I am lying, well I am not a guy that goes around deseving people and lying to make others look good. You can believe me or not, thats up to you, I dont need to defend what I write because it is what it is. You guys make me laugh, who do you think might know a little something, you or me? I said 20 so you can believe it is 20 or not. You dont cause you think he is bad, and not having resources like other successfull QB means nothing to you. It is Carr, it is all on him, we want Quinn we want this guy, even Jake Plummer is better now, anyone but Carr, BUT 20 think other wise, I will blow your doors off with another bit, 1 team even offered a 1 rd pick!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Bill Walsh called him and told him how much he likes to watch Carr play, and how much respect he has for him, and he called to tell Carr that they would be crazy to get rid of him. So you can think I am lying about that to if you would like.

Where ever he goes, it will be were God wants him to be.

And Carr is better then Jake.
Hey believe me or not, it does not bother me. I send little things out for people who acctually care to read it, we have a saying, "You dont need to lie to hang out".

Thanks for sharing your point of view. It is nice to get comments that break people out of their group think about things.

FWIW, my friend and I ran into AZ coach Ken Whisenhunt when we were at the Super Bowl. He said that he was a big fan of David Carr, and thought he was getting a bum rap from fans at large.

I think the biggest plus that Carr as a free agent/trade has is his age, athleticism and perceived upside. Most of the QBs who might be available are older, and have basically maxed out their careers. Even the biggest Carr haters cannot believe that the Texans have had the ideal offensive players around him.

Texans_Chick
02-19-2007, 03:54 PM
If Kubiak did tell Carr that, and the team turns around and deals him anyway, that's pretty lame. If they are going to deal or release the guy, they should tell him so he can get on with his career. That would be the classy thing to do.

I'm still not convinced that Carr won't be traded or released, but at least I understand why you feel that way.

I am guessing that they aren't really shopping him, but will be open to whatever they believe is: a. an upgrade for the team; b. at the right price for just about all positions on the team.

My inner inner cynic that I try to keep bottled up thinks it is funny that the Carr trade talk came up at about the same time the season ticket renewal packages went out.

Hulk75
02-19-2007, 04:55 PM
I don't believe that statement by Hulk...


Either Gary lied, or Hulk is lying. One of the two.


Hulk has speculated about trades, and teams that are interested in Carr(20, right?) too much for me to believe that they have word from Kubiak that David won't be traded. If you have been given information like that, you wouldn't be wasting your time arguing about it. If Kubes did tell y'all that, he must have not sounded too convincing, because it doesn't seem as if you feel too secure about the whole situation.

:crying: "He thinks I am lying"

I know it is hard to believe, cause it is all his fault:drunk:. O sorry, his agent- KC, Baltimore, Carolina, Miami, Oakland, Tampa, Bills, Browns, Eagles, Jax, Minnesota, Bears, Lions, Green Bay, Redskins all want him 15 my fault. Yes am lying you caught me, did you like how I just threw Bill Walshs name out there, got you didnt I?

real
02-19-2007, 05:04 PM
:crying: "He thinks I am lying"

I know it is hard to believe, cause it is all his fault:drunk:. O sorry, 15 my fault. Yes am lying you caught me, did you like how I just threw Bill Walshs name out there, got you didnt I?

I don't think you're lying about the teams that want Carr...

I can believe that...In fact I think that Carr has "value" around the leauge...


The part I don't believe is the part about Kubiak and the orginization telling Carr he is the starter and will not be traded.

Lucky
02-19-2007, 05:25 PM
his agent- KC, Baltimore, Carolina, Miami, Oakland, Tampa, Bills, Browns, Eagles, Jax, Minnesota, Bears, Lions, Green Bay, Redskins all want him
Of course, it's hard to determine the level of interest that each of those teams may have. It could run from giving Carr a vet minimum contract plus incentives as a backup (Eagles?, Green Bay?) to competing for the starting job (Carolina?, Tampa Bay?). Only the agent & those teams know for sure.

Which brings up tampering. Did the Texans give Carr's agent the OK to talk contract with other teams? After telling David he's the starter and not going anywhere? Just doesn't seem to fit.

real
02-19-2007, 05:31 PM
Which brings up tampering. Did the Texans give Carr's agent the OK to talk contract with other teams? After telling David he's the starter and not going anywhere? Just doesn't seem to fit.


Exactly. Why would there even be discussion about the teams that want David if David was told he'd be here next year? Why are y'all even worried about that ?

Heath Shuler
02-19-2007, 06:41 PM
Let me ask you, does Phillip Rivers have the perfect situation, best player in NFL history for his HB (the back up is not o shaby either), the best line in football, one of the best TEs and FBs in the league, has a stupid Defense and he lives in San Diego, now that sounds perfect. Why is it okay for some to have all that and not for others. Would you like me to do the teams of Peyton Manning, Ben, Brees, Romo, because it does not get any better yet all these guys are Pro Bowlers and have been protected for years now or right when they came into the leaugue.

And if it is all about wins what would you have to say about Rex Grossman, if it is about wins for a QB then Rex should have made the Pro Bowl, Right?

I am sorry that is the dumbest thing I have ever read, any successfull QB has had everything you have discribed. What you just said is plane stupid. So shacky play calling like he had for years, bad scheme for years should have made him a better QB? What the heck does that mean? SO SORRY that it takes sooooo much for a QB to do well, QBs should not have players atround him like Rivers does and Peyton does, QBs should not have the such things like Olines and Hall of Fame RBs, why should scheme even play a part in a QBs future and well being in the NFL. If he is good he will just be good no matter what, I am sorry that was retarted what you just wrote.

Hopefully for Carrís sake one of the twenty teams that is interested in him is the NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Can you please answer a question for me? Is it the: offense coordinator, head coach, scheme, O-line, TEís, or Wrís fault that Carr threw the ball past the line of scrimmage not once but twice in the same quarter of football?

NATHANHALE
02-19-2007, 06:48 PM
"If you're a quarterback out there in America, we'll be looking into yours, as well," Gruden said. "We've got to find a guy who can dominate, not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

"We've got to find a guy in Tampa, Florida, who can dominate the NFL and be a superstar quarterback, and that gives us a chance to be where we want to be. Until we do, we're going to be looking."

...sorry, better scratch TB off Carr's list. In another article, Gruden says he has the big bucks for a proven winner...

"...not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

And, to think, Simms has started less than 20 games!!!!!!!!!!

TwinSisters
02-19-2007, 06:56 PM
"If you're a quarterback out there in America, we'll be looking into yours, as well," Gruden said. "We've got to find a guy who can dominate, not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

"We've got to find a guy in Tampa, Florida, who can dominate the NFL and be a superstar quarterback, and that gives us a chance to be where we want to be. Until we do, we're going to be looking."

****** man **** ******* do *** * ****** ***** I ***** **** love ***** ****** Gruden.

!$@$#%#@!!!!!!

I would trade Kubiack, Carr, and a 4th rounder to Tampa for Gruden and their first. It will be like old times dealing with Tampa.

HoustonFrog
02-19-2007, 07:43 PM
BTW, I forgot this last night Hulk. The way the NFL usually works is that the GM and owner and coach start receiving trade scenarios from other GMs, etc. During this period, unless their is a no-trade clause that needs to be waived, the players involved, because they are still with the team, usually don't get the heads up on what is going on. Sometimes they are the last to hear. I'm sure Dave isn't getting daily calls as to "hey we don't want you here anymore but there are 20 teams that want you." You don't alienate your players and they aren't privy to the trade offers..like fantasy #1s, etc. So your whole scenarios isn't really in the realm of NFL reality. Add that to the fact that I'm sure their family isn't sitting there finding this info out either. That isn't how NFL teams work.


Oh, I'm sorry, I see Hulk is still making up stories.:)

thunderkyss
02-20-2007, 08:48 AM
Even the biggest Carr haters cannot believe that the Texans have had the ideal offensive players around him.

I will go so far to say that I believe we haven't had David in the most ideal offensive system for him.

thunderkyss
02-20-2007, 09:18 AM
"If you're a quarterback out there in America, we'll be looking into yours, as well," Gruden said. "We've got to find a guy who can dominate, not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

"We've got to find a guy in Tampa, Florida, who can dominate the NFL and be a superstar quarterback, and that gives us a chance to be where we want to be. Until we do, we're going to be looking."

...sorry, better scratch TB off Carr's list. In another article, Gruden says he has the big bucks for a proven winner...

"...not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

And, to think, Simms has started less than 20 games!!!!!!!!!!

It's funny, when people talking about winning a Super Bowl with any old QB, and a stout defense, the Brad Johnson Buccaneers is one of the teams mentioned.

Nobody ever wants to consider that when said QB is released promptly after winning the Super Bowl, that the teams weren't ever happy or pleased with said QB. & couldn't care less how successful they were. They knew they needed a new QB.

Hulk75
02-21-2007, 01:52 AM
Hopefully for Carrís sake one of the twenty teams that is interested in him is the NFL 75th Anniversary All-Time Team.

Can you please answer a question for me? Is it the: offense coordinator, head coach, scheme, O-line, TEís, or Wrís fault that Carr threw the ball past the line of scrimmage not once but twice in the same quarter of football?

O NO! O my GOSH he did not do that did he, O LORD NO!!!!!!!!!! My Gosh How could he have done something so ville and bad to the team. Give me a flippin break, I guess it was his fault that Petey got burned not once but twice in 1 Quarter of football, get the heck out of here with that, are you being serious?

Hulk75
02-21-2007, 01:58 AM
"If you're a quarterback out there in America, we'll be looking into yours, as well," Gruden said. "We've got to find a guy who can dominate, not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

"We've got to find a guy in Tampa, Florida, who can dominate the NFL and be a superstar quarterback, and that gives us a chance to be where we want to be. Until we do, we're going to be looking."

...sorry, better scratch TB off Carr's list. In another article, Gruden says he has the big bucks for a proven winner...

"...not a guy who can run a game or help us score here or there."

And, to think, Simms has started less than 20 games!!!!!!!!!!

Let me just say from what I hear, that yours and Grudens thoughts on Carr are day and night.:shades:

Too funny.

NATHANHALE
02-21-2007, 03:48 AM
Let me just say from what I hear, that yours and Grudens thoughts on Carr are day and night.:shades:

Too funny.

What's even funnier is trying to figure out which 1 of your 15 teams would actually take David, since they all have weaknesses that-according to you and his other 'family' have been the reasons (excuses) for his less than spectacular results.

Miami/Chiefs/Raiders/Bills/Browns/Vikings/Lions all have equal or more sacks than the Texans had last year, so that leaves them out.

Panthers/Tampa Bay/Packers/Redskins/Ravens all had running attacks in the bottom half of the league, so that leaves them out.

That leaves the Eagles/Jags/Bears. Eagles had 4000+yds and 30+tds (half Carr's 5 yr total)--do they really think Carr is the answer? And, Chicago. In his first full yr starting, Grossman throws for 3000+yds and 20+tds (something Carr has never done) to lead the Bears to the SB. With more playing time, would Grossman get better or is Carr the answer.

JMO, but only 1 team offers Carr just about all the 'intangibles' he needs as he tries to reach an acceptable playing level in the NFL--the JAGS. They can protect him/they've got WR's/they've got a running attack/and they've got a defense.

thunderkyss
02-21-2007, 06:45 AM
O NO! O my GOSH he did not do that did he, O LORD NO!!!!!!!!!! My Gosh How could he have done something so ville and bad to the team. Give me a flippin break, I guess it was his fault that Petey got burned not once but twice in 1 Quarter of football, get the heck out of here with that, are you being serious?

You're right. Let's get rid of 'em both.

Heath Shuler
02-21-2007, 08:28 PM
You're right. Let's get rid of 'em both.

If that's what it takes to get better.

Heath Shuler
02-21-2007, 08:33 PM
O NO! O my GOSH he did not do that did he, O LORD NO!!!!!!!!!! My Gosh How could he have done something so ville and bad to the team. Give me a flippin break, I guess it was his fault that Petey got burned not once but twice in 1 Quarter of football, get the heck out of here with that, are you being serious?

Classic. First make endless excuses, then shift the blame and find fault in others.


Carr makes way more than his share of mistakes.

thunderkyss
02-21-2007, 09:37 PM
If that's what it takes to get better.

My point exactly. We should expect a minimum return from each and every one of our players. If they don't meet that standard, they're gone.

Petey had some issues.... He's got some fans, but even they wouldn't mind an upgrade at that position. They don't make excuses...... well, they'll say we need better play from the safety, but hey, we don't mind upgrading there either.

But say that our QB needs to improve his play(which is all most of the Carr hater's' myself included have been saying before 2006) & we'll have half the state of California telling us we don't know jack.

5 years later... .If I were a Carr fan(and I'm not) I'd want David to move on, and get a chance to prove people wrong. It's obvious the people in Houston(Reliant) don't know how to put together a football team that takes advantage of David's abilities. Either that, or they don't want to.

Heath Shuler
02-22-2007, 06:00 PM
My point exactly. We should expect a minimum return from each and every one of our players. If they don't meet that standard, they're gone.

Petey had some issues.... He's got some fans, but even they wouldn't mind an upgrade at that position. They don't make excuses...... well, they'll say we need better play from the safety, but hey, we don't mind upgrading there either.

But say that our QB needs to improve his play(which is all most of the Carr hater's' myself included have been saying before 2006) & we'll have half the state of California telling us we don't know jack.

5 years later... .If I were a Carr fan(and I'm not) I'd want David to move on, and get a chance to prove people wrong. It's obvious the people in Houston(Reliant) don't know how to put together a football team that takes advantage of David's abilities. Either that, or they don't want to.

I donít consider myself a hater, never have, never will. I agree with you: I just want the team to get better. The only possible way to spin that Carr is successful is to have a secondary agenda., make excuses or blame others.

NFLforher
02-22-2007, 09:32 PM
I'm not sure it's about "gain". Carr has every media outlet saying he's gone. The front office says that teams are calling about a possible trade. If I wanted to be with the Texans, I would at least say so publicly. Some fans would like to know what he thought about this past season and where he stands with the team. I don't see how that's the same as TO throwing his QB under the bus.


It's called "dignity."