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View Full Version : Interesting stat regarding Carr/Plummer


gtexan02
02-15-2007, 12:14 AM
So I took this quote from the new chronicle blog guy, who took it from KC Joyner at ESPN. PRetty interesting:

"The other area that Plummer could help in is reducing the number of coverage sacks (a sack that occurs in the pocket more than three seconds after the snap). Over the past two seasons, Carr has been responsible for 24 coverage sacks, while Plummer has been responsible for 10".

No way to blame those on the OL. Every QB should be able to get rid of the ball after 3 seconds. This lends credence to everyone who has been claiming that Carr and the OL are equally responsible for his sack problems

run-david-run
02-15-2007, 12:54 AM
Jake the Mistake...that name came about for a reason, I would take a 6 yard sack over a throw into double coverage that gets picked. Obviously, I would like to find a happy medium between Carr's lack of confidence and Plummer's recklessnes, but its about picking the lesser of two evils here.

eriadoc
02-15-2007, 09:45 AM
So I took this quote from the new chronicle blog guy, who took it from KC Joyner at ESPN. PRetty interesting:

"The other area that Plummer could help in is reducing the number of coverage sacks (a sack that occurs in the pocket more than three seconds after the snap). Over the past two seasons, Carr has been responsible for 24 coverage sacks, while Plummer has been responsible for 10".

No way to blame those on the OL. Every QB should be able to get rid of the ball after 3 seconds. This lends credence to everyone who has been claiming that Carr and the OL are equally responsible for his sack problems

Oh, he contributes to his own sack total, no doubt. I would be curious to see a stat on how many times a rusher has hit Carr before he's even set his feet on the drop over the past two years. I'd be willing to bet it's higher than 24.

edo783
02-15-2007, 09:54 AM
IMO, the key term is "Coverage sack". Meaning no one was open within the 3 second window. QBs fault.....perhaps. Sounds more like a scheme and/or reciever issue as much as anything. I'm not sure how a QB (any) can be responsible for a coverage sack unless they are expecting the ball to be thrown away which we know Carr has had a problem with until last year when he did much better.

kubs-elway
02-15-2007, 01:28 PM
One thing to remember guys, Jake when given a running game is a good qb. Also with a lead he will keep it. If you have to come from behind it would be tough. Dont let all the bashing out of denver make you think he would be worse than carr. He is a GREAT leader, you have a future star tight end and reciever, I firmly believe he can get you to the playoffs, until a younger qb is ready

gtexan02
02-15-2007, 02:30 PM
Jake is now getting 8 million, this year.. in a back-up roll. Now is your answer too turning around our team. Give up a high draft, plus pay him mocha bucks will get us to the play-offs. I hope that you don't have anymore plans.

What are you talking about?

As for the coverage sack, every QB has to deal with those. Every QB won't have all his receivers, or sometimmes any of his receivers open after 3 seconds. But the good ones know where to go if that happens. Or they can make multiple reads instead of locking onto 1 guy and waiting to see if he gets open

trutxn
02-15-2007, 02:41 PM
One thing to remember guys, Jake when given a running game is a good qb. Also with a lead he will keep it. If you have to come from behind it would be tough. Dont let all the bashing out of denver make you think he would be worse than carr. He is a GREAT leader, you have a future star tight end and reciever, I firmly believe he can get you to the playoffs, until a younger qb is ready

Jake sucks, period. He had a complete team around him in Denver when Kubes was there. They had arguably the best o-line in the game, decent RBs and WRs, and a solid defense. Jake did not get them to the playoffs, the rest of the team did, although Jake was the reason they lost in the playoffs. The game of football does not revolve around stats, watch the play on the field. Jake was average at Arizona State, sucked in a Cardinals uniform, and was average in Denver. If you want to know how Jake would perform with the Texans you are better off watching his Cardinals game film, because they did not have an o-line or RBs either.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 02:43 PM
As for the coverage sack, every QB has to deal with those.



David needs to learn to throw the ball away, sometimes it seems as if he is more worried about his completion % than he is about taking a sack. This can be taught.

gtexan02
02-15-2007, 02:45 PM
Jake sucks, period. He had a complete team around him in Denver when Kubes was there. They had arguably the best o-line in the game, decent RBs and WRs, and a solid defense. Jake did not get them to the playoffs, the rest of the team did, although Jake was the reason they lost in the playoffs. The game of football does not revolve around stats, watch the play on the field. Jake was average at Arizona State, sucked in a Cardinals uniform, and was average in Denver. If you want to know how Jake would perform with the Texans you are better off watching his Cardinals game film, because they did not have an o-line or RBs either.

Lets see, his improvement as a Bronco had nothing to do with the constant coaching Kubes forced on him? It had nothing to do with the system Kubes implemented in Denver? If it was the team that was so good, why did Jakes play ever change? Why did he start off badly and steadily improve his play? The team didn't change that much over the years, so something must have changed.

In 2004 and 2005 Plummer threw for almost 8000 yards, 45 tds, and 27 ints. I don't care how good your team is, you do'nt rack up those kind of numbers, however misleading stats might be, if you are a horrible quarterback.

Take the Dolphins as an example. Harrington is a crappy quarterback. He had a great team around him this year. And he still sucked.

gtexan02
02-15-2007, 02:47 PM
David needs to learn to throw the ball away, sometimes it seems as if he is more worried about his completion % than he is about taking a sack. This can be taught.


If after 5 years in the NFL someone still hasn't been able to learn something, theres a good chance they won't magically master the ability any time in the near future.

Texan_Bill
02-15-2007, 02:47 PM
Jake sucks, period. He had a complete team around him in Denver when Kubes was there. They had arguably the best o-line in the game, decent RBs and WRs, and a solid defense. Jake did not get them to the playoffs, the rest of the team did, although Jake was the reason they lost in the playoffs. The game of football does not revolve around stats, watch the play on the field. Jake was average at Arizona State, sucked in a Cardinals uniform, and was average in Denver. If you want to know how Jake would perform with the Texans you are better off watching his Cardinals game film, because they did not have an o-line or RBs either.

I hear what you are saying and agree with 99% of it. BUT remember that even Plummer did take the Cardinals to the play-offs; beating Dallas and then losing to Minnesota.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 02:52 PM
If after 5 years in the NFL someone still hasn't been able to learn something, theres a good chance they won't magically master the ability any time in the near future.

He has had one year of teaching. Dom Capers staff could not train anyone, especially a QB.

gtexan02
02-15-2007, 02:57 PM
He has had one year of teaching. Dom Capers staff could not train anyone, especially a QB.

Unless you have some sort of proof of that, I am going to have to call you out on this one.

Maybe he wasn't the most effective teacher in the NFL, but I know for a fact that Carr was coached by the old regime, especially Pendry. Not to mention the fact that there were QB coaches there.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:02 PM
Lets see, his improvement as a Bronco had nothing to do with the constant coaching Kubes forced on him?

In 2004 and 2005 Plummer threw for almost 8000 yards, 45 tds, and 27 ints. I don't care how good your team is, you do'nt rack up those kind of numbers, however misleading stats might be, if you are a horrible quarterback.

Take the Dolphins as an example. Harrington is a crappy quarterback. He had a great team around him this year. And he still sucked.

I do not like David Carr as a Texan, he is just our best option at this time.

1) Kubes did help tremendously, but you can't compare Jake's stats to Davids because David would have good numbers with a good team around him.

2) Stats mean nothing, learn the game. Remember Andre Ware and David Klingler. I do belive the Raiders' Aaron Brooks had one good yr in New Orleans, that doesn't hide the fact that he sucks. Also, David Carr was throwing for almost 400 yds a game in college, what do those stats mean now?

3) The Dolphins battled injuries all year along the o-line, RB, & WR. They didn't have a good overall team, they had a good defense.

The only point that I am trying to make is that Jake Plummer is just an older David Carr. They both have the same talent level. It is not worth giving up a draft pick if we are not going to get better.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:03 PM
Unless you have some sort of proof of that, I am going to have to call you out on this one.

Maybe he wasn't the most effective teacher in the NFL, but I know for a fact that Carr was coached by the old regime, especially Pendry. Not to mention the fact that there were QB coaches there.

The previous staff was a defensive staff, none of them had the reputation of developing QBs like Kubes does, not even your boy Pendry.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:05 PM
If after 5 years in the NFL someone still hasn't been able to learn something, theres a good chance they won't magically master the ability any time in the near future.

I guarantee you if you start docking his pay for stupid decisions his decision making will improve.

Honoring Earl 34
02-15-2007, 03:23 PM
David needs to learn to throw the ball away, sometimes it seems as if he is more worried about his completion % than he is about taking a sack. This can be taught.

Then he is a slow learner ... because that's taught long before the NFL .

TwinSisters
02-15-2007, 03:28 PM
The previous staff was a defensive staff, none of them had the reputation of developing QBs like Kubes does, not even your boy Pendry.

uh... Chris Palmer and Drew Bledsoe?

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:32 PM
uh... Chris Palmer and Drew Bledsoe?

Like I said, the old staff sucked. You all are making my point that much more clear by arguing. Bledsoe has good stats, and thats it. FOOTBALL IS NOT LIKE OTHER SPORTS, ITS NOT ALL ABOUT STATS!

Honoring Earl 34
02-15-2007, 03:34 PM
Like I said, the old staff sucked. You all are making my point that much more clear by arguing. Bledsoe has good stats, and thats it. FOOTBALL IS NOT LIKE OTHER SPORTS, ITS NOT ALL ABOUT STATS!

Chris Palmer is a decent coach ... Bill Parcells hired him to be his QB coach .

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:36 PM
Then he is a slow learner ... because that's taught long before the NFL .

It is taught in Pee Wee football. But when you have 6'7", 300lb. players chasing you all over the field, technique sometimes goes out the window.

TwinSisters
02-15-2007, 03:36 PM
Like I said, the old staff sucked. You all are making my point that much more clear by arguing. Bledsoe has good stats, and thats it. FOOTBALL IS NOT LIKE OTHER SPORTS, ITS NOT ALL ABOUT STATS!

Bledsoe, Romo, Couch, Carr, and ( somewhat ) Brunell.

Couch got hurt.

It's not just about stats... that's Super Bowls, playoffs, and pro bowls.

If he sucked so bad? Why did Parcells hire him? Why did the Giants hire him? They have a million dollar baby up there, it's not like they are going to throw all that away on a bad coach.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:37 PM
Chris Palmer is a decent coach ... Bill Parcells hired him to be his QB coach .

ESPN just did a stint on Chris Palmer's ability to ruin QBs, ya'll should watch it sometime. I'll try to get you the link.

Honoring Earl 34
02-15-2007, 03:39 PM
It is taught in Pee Wee football. But when you have 6'7", 300lb. players chasing you all over the field, technique sometimes goes out the window.

Most good QBs seem to have mastered it .

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:42 PM
Bledsoe, Romo, Couch, Carr, and ( somewhat ) Brunell.

Couch got hurt.

It's not just about stats... that's Super Bowls, playoffs, and pro bowls.

If he sucked so bad? Why did Parcells hire him? Why did the Giants hire him? They have a million dollar baby up there, it's not like they are going to throw all that away on a bad coach.



First of all its New York so who cares. But if you ask the players to list the 50 best coaches i guarantee Palmer or any other NY (Giants) coach will not be on the list. Eli's best coach is his brother. None of the QBs above played in a Super Bowl, none. Bledsoe got hurt before his chance. I'm not a Cowboys fan at all, but its sad to say that Romo is the best QB listed above.

Its all about WINNING!

trutxn
02-15-2007, 03:43 PM
Most good QBs seem to have mastered it .

No QB in league history has mastered running for their lives.

TwinSisters
02-15-2007, 03:52 PM
First of all its New York so who cares. But if you ask the players to list the 50 best coaches i guarantee Palmer or any other NY (Giants) coach will not be on the list. Eli's best coach is his brother. None of the QBs above played in a Super Bowl, none. Bledsoe got hurt before his chance. I'm not a Cowboys fan at all, but its sad to say that Romo is the best QB listed above.

1996 Super Bowl

11 Post season games for Brunell.

9 or 10 Pro Bowls all together.

Parcells coached the Giants. Dan Reeves coached the Giants.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 03:57 PM
First of all its New York so who cares. But if you ask the players to list the 50 best coaches i guarantee Palmer or any other NY (Giants) coach will not be on the list. Eli's best coach is his brother. None of the QBs above played in a Super Bowl, none. Bledsoe got hurt before his chance. I'm not a Cowboys fan at all, but its sad to say that Romo is the best QB listed above.

Its all about WINNING!

Well then what about Capers having a team that reached the NFC title game and their QB started with that team as a rookie....Kerry Collins...oh yeah I think Pendry or someone like that was his coach. Throwing the ball away and not staring down receivers is taught as far back as high school. It also is a known factor around the NFL. If in 5 years you can't work on that and get better at it, then something is wrong. It is the basics of QBing. I think people need to realize that just because a guy has a strong arm and did well in college, it isn't a guarantee of being a top NFL QB. The landscape is littered with strong armed guys who failed. People act like we owe it to him to make sure he has a plastic bubble around him.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 04:03 PM
1996 Super Bowl

11 Post season games for Brunell.

9 or 10 Pro Bowls all together.

Parcells coached the Giants. Dan Reeves coached the Giants.

Parcells was not in the conversation, he is a great coach. Palmer on the other hand is not.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 04:09 PM
If in 5 years you can't work on that and get better at it, then something is wrong.



Until this last year he was trying to throw from his back. It is easy for you to say what a player should or should not do while you sit at your cozy computer or TV. Carr developed bad (very bad) habits, I do not like him at all, but he is better than any other option at this time. If we could draft a QB in later rounds and develop him, I'm for it. But we would have to give to much in order to fix our QB problems this year, and Plummer is not a fix. If Quinn dropped to us I'm sure the front office will think seriously about picking him (unless Adrian is still available).

TwinSisters
02-15-2007, 04:19 PM
Parcells was not in the conversation, he is a great coach. Palmer on the other hand is not.

bah.

Parcells hired Palmer as a Quarterback coach. That makes him part of the conversation.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 04:19 PM
Until this last year he was trying to throw from his back. It is easy for you to say what a player should or should not do while you sit at your cozy computer or TV. Carr developed bad (very bad) habits, I do not like him at all, but he is better than any other option at this time. If we could draft a QB in later rounds and develop him, I'm for it. But we would have to give to much in order to fix our QB problems this year, and Plummer is not a fix. If Quinn dropped to us I'm sure the front office will think seriously about picking him (unless Adrian is still available).

Plummer is not supposed to be a long term fix. That is what people have to understand. I'm with you that we need a young guy to groom but Plummer has at least shown he can win under Kubiak and some talent around him. If we got even one yar out of him and we made improvements and didn't have the lingering questions over the QBs head, I believe it would be a huge step. You can still groom the guy under Plummer or whomever they chose. I'll give Carr is first year and all but habits such as being outside the pocket and throwing it and looking off a receiver..or the fumbles are things that should have been fixed or worked on. If I saw him checking off and getting pounded it would be one thing but that isn't happening.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 04:21 PM
Plummer is not supposed to be a long term fix. That is what people have to understand. I'm with you that we need a young guy to groom but Plummer has at least shown he can win under Kubiak and some talent around him. If we got even one yar out of him and we made improvements and didn't have the lingering questions over the QBs head, I believe it would be a huge step. You can still groom the guy under Plummer or whomever they chose. I'll give Carr is first year and all but habits such as being outside the pocket and throwing it and looking off a receiver..or the fumbles are things that should have been fixed or worked on. If I saw him checking off and getting pounded it would be one thing but that isn't happening.

The problem is the talent is not around him yet. Plummer won't fix anything. Getting to .500 next yr will not make Plummer a savior, because Carr would be able to do that.

trutxn
02-15-2007, 04:22 PM
bah.

Parcells hired Palmer as a Quarterback coach. That makes him part of the conversation.

Whatever, go read football for dummies and then get back with me.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 04:37 PM
The problem is the talent is not around him yet. Plummer won't fix anything. Getting to .500 next yr will not make Plummer a savior, because Carr would be able to do that.

Yet?How long are you supposed to wait for a perfect team. Again, you can't wait on surrounding one of your highest paid guy. He is supposed to be winning games for you in his 5th year. There isn't a team in history that has had this much patience. You can't put a guy in a bubble. Sometimes it just doesn't work. Plummer would do better IMHO but isn't the only option.

HoustonFrog
02-15-2007, 04:38 PM
Whatever, go read football for dummies and then get back with me.


Unnecessary towards him. What is the deal with this today?

Honoring Earl 34
02-15-2007, 04:45 PM
Whatever, go read football for dummies and then get back with me.

Was it a good read ?

TwinSisters
02-15-2007, 04:57 PM
Was it a good read ?

Actually it is. Both that one and Joe's *****'s guide. ( and Joe is not really that bright )

the gist of the argument is that
A. Carr had poor coaching from Palmer
B. Palmer was getting paid to coach QBs before and after Carr/Couch. We are not talking about min. wage either, nor are we talking about low risk/investment QBs. Bledsoe, Manning, Carr, Couch were all first round picks if not #1 overall.

That doesn't look like poor coaching. If not great, at least good.

Bledsoe is a good case to bring up with the coverage sacks and stats in general.

I will just say subjectively that more then 50% of the NFL fan base thinks of Bledsoe as a guy that cannot move and takes sacks and thus is ineffective and could not win a Super Bowl.

Meaning he needs a stellar line to work properly.

Why would Carr be held in higher regard without the stats and the same need for an All-Pro line?

EDIT:
har har... i-d-i-o-t's guide

trutxn
02-17-2007, 03:37 PM
Why would Carr be held in higher regard without the stats and the same need for an All-Pro line?



Congrats, you got the point!