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amazingandre
02-12-2007, 11:09 AM
They will talk about Car and Plummer I will report anything they say.Hopefully it will be fact not opinion.

amazingandre
02-12-2007, 11:34 AM
not much says Houston WANTS to get rid of Carr, and they want Plummer, but he has to want to come here if the trade were to happen. Denver and Houston both can afford it and they wont get rid of Carr unless they have someone to replace him. but if they dont get Plummer they still want to get rid of Carr. So in short he is up for trade and the teams are talking now.....thats what i got out of it.......what do you think will be involoved with a trade like this, i dont think the just give Plummer for nothin, i think they want something of value....

gtexan02
02-12-2007, 11:40 AM
I don't get it.
Plummer knows he needs Kubiak.
Denver cannot afford/would be stupid to keep Plummer on their roster

Why are we offering them anything for him? Why not just wait until he's cut?

amazingandre
02-12-2007, 11:41 AM
what if they pull a detroit on him and not cut him....then what....plummer is stuck and we have carr(which im not opposed to)

Silver Oak
02-12-2007, 11:46 AM
I think they're just basing this on McClains article, which is speculation also.

Wharton
02-12-2007, 11:56 AM
I don't get it.
Plummer knows he needs Kubiak.
Denver cannot afford/would be stupid to keep Plummer on their roster

Why are we offering them anything for him? Why not just wait until he's cut?
The problem is Denver already has a replacement for Plummer, we don't have a replacement for Carr or at least not a proven one. I like Rosenfels, but he is time tested yet.

Also, Since Denver doesn't need Carr; he's not trade bait to them. Carr would be just another high salary.

Keeping Carr for another year has really screwed things up.

If I were GM, I'd keep Carr for now. Let him play the preseason in a backup roll and dominated against second-string player in the second half of games. Then when a major QB goes down next year, then offer Carr as trade bait. Granted I have no idea what the cap implications are in this scenario.

Either way, we are going to still have QB problems next year unless Sage, a rookie, or another unknown FA steps up.

Anyway, here's :twocents:

Honoring Earl 34
02-12-2007, 12:00 PM
I agree that with Carr or without Carr we have QB questions .

The thing is if you go with another QB you answer questions about the rest of your team .

yourfavoritetexan42
02-12-2007, 01:45 PM
we shouldn't trade for plummer, and we should keep carr. If plummer gets cut, bring him in, and cut one right before the season, have them battle it out.

TEXANS84
02-12-2007, 01:52 PM
we shouldn't trade for plummer, and we should keep carr. If plummer gets cut, bring him in, and cut one right before the season, have them battle it out.

Salary Cap.

Plummer's not going to play for peanuts.

Texian
02-12-2007, 02:15 PM
Salary Cap.

Plummer's not going to play for peanuts.

If Plummer is traded his $7+ million salary goes with him. If he is cut you can negoitate a new salary before signing him. Shanahan has said they will get something for Plummer and can't imagine letting him go for nothing. Shanahan also said keeping Plummer is not out of the question and wouldn't be bad thing to do so.

HOU-TEX
02-12-2007, 02:16 PM
I don't get it.
Plummer knows he needs Kubiak.
Denver cannot afford/would be stupid to keep Plummer on their roster

Why are we offering them anything for him? Why not just wait until he's cut?

On the contrary. It appears it'd be in the Broncos best interest to keep Plummer. They're in the same boat we are with Carr. IMO, a little worse off. Here are a few snippets from an article a while back.

if the team cut the veteran before June 1, it would take a salary-cap hit of $8,556,000 for the 2007 season.

If the Broncos cut Plummer after June 1, the cap hit would be over two years - $2,852,000 in 2007 and $5,704,000 in 2008.

Because Plummer's salary-cap figure for 2007 is $8,605,000, to cut him after June 1 would give the Broncos $5,704,000 in cap room this year that currently isn't on the books.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_5303726,00.html

Lucky
02-12-2007, 02:46 PM
On the contrary. It appears it'd be in the Broncos best interest to keep Plummer.
I don't see how you read that. Unless the Broncos get a very good draft pick in return, it's in the Broncos best interest to cut Plummer and take the cap hit over 2 seasons. I can't see the Broncos (or the Texans) paying over $5 million in salary to a backup QB.

HOU-TEX
02-12-2007, 03:11 PM
I don't see how you read that. Unless the Broncos get a very good draft pick in return, it's in the Broncos best interest to cut Plummer and take the cap hit over 2 seasons. I can't see the Broncos (or the Texans) paying over $5 million in salary to a backup QB.

True, but if he were to stay on as a back up, it'd give the Broncos some sort of payback for the guaranteed money. Either way you look at it, whether it be the Texans or Broncos, they're going to take a substantial hit. Whether it be cap space or draft picks.

Would you rather pay the 5 million to a back up? Or to a player no longer on the roster? In order to compensate for that amount of money being paid to the player, a team that wanted the player would have to give up way too much.

I do not know a whole lot about salary cap issues. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least fill me in on why I'm wrong.:)

Ole Miss Texan
02-12-2007, 03:25 PM
denver and us both are in a bad position with our qb's. only its their expensive back up and our expensive starter.

don't forget that if they stay...its not just the guaranteed money they get but also their salary..which is 5 or 6 million per year.

in our case David will be paid 5mil. salary + 2 mill bonus in 2007 and then like 6mil salary and 2 mil. bonus in 2008. if we cut/trade him don't we just pay 4mill. in 2007 or 2mil in 07 and 2mil in 08??

so yes we still pay 4 million dollars for say a 3rd rd draft pick + that players salary. but we dont pay the 11million dollar salary to carr over two years. am i making sense or looking at it correctly?

either way we're spending a lot of money.

Lucky
02-12-2007, 03:31 PM
I do not know a whole lot about salary cap issues. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least fill me in on why I'm wrong.:)
As stated in the article you cited, the Broncos can realize $5.7 million in cap relief this year by releasing Plummer. That's a very good FA pickup. Wouldn't the cap room be better served in that manner, as opposed to a grouchy, complaining, veteran backup QB who doesn't want to be there? How could that be good for Cutler?

HOU-TEX
02-12-2007, 04:18 PM
As stated in the article you cited, the Broncos can realize $5.7 million in cap relief this year by releasing Plummer. That's a very good FA pickup. Wouldn't the cap room be better served in that manner, as opposed to a grouchy, complaining, veteran backup QB who doesn't want to be there? How could that be good for Cutler?

I suppose that'd be a better scenerio for the team. The organization will still have to eat that $5.7 next year. Oh well, it happens every year so I guess it doesn't hurt teams as much as it looks. Having said that, the Texans need to cut bait(Carr) and run.:bubble:

GP
02-12-2007, 05:18 PM
I think Plummer will be a Chicago Bear before it's all said and done.

He has that Jim MacMahon "look" about him, has played in cold weather, and is an upgrade over Grossman. Grossman will likely not even be playing anywhere next year after his bad season and atrocious Super Bowl outing.

I just think we'll still have David Carr next year, and Kubiak will look to deal him mid-season while also developing drafted QB and/or looking for mid-season acquisitions as he tries to trade David.

I'd say at least 85% chance DC is our QB going into camp.

I don't think the Plummer deal goes through. I think other teams will outbid us for Jake, just as they did for David Givens.

IMO, this is just a fishing expedition by our FO to try and see if other teams will come to the front and try to get Carr.

Honestly, do you WANT Jake as our QB next season? It's reported that he has this burning desire to play and to be competitive and blah-blah-blah...but I see a guy on the decline. I see a beer drinking party animal that has the personality of a fence post. THAT'S the guy that's better than DC? Jake reminds me of those QBs from the late 1970s who had shaggy facial hair, lumbered around on the field with one hip pad hanging out of his pants...the speed of a one-legged jaguar...and that far away look in his eyes that says "Where's the big party after the game?" There's a reason he got out-gunned by a rookie QB: His days are done and over with, IMO. Do we need to trade DC and get a guy who could care less about us? Does he project ANY image whatsoever that he's the future of an NFL team?

(Sigh)

God, please let this cup pass from us....

...Let us crush The Snake under our feet.

dirty steve
02-12-2007, 05:44 PM
I think Plummer will be a Chicago Bear before it's all said and done.

He has that Jim MacMahon "look" about him, has played in cold weather, and is an upgrade over Grossman. Grossman will likely not even be playing anywhere next year after his bad season and atrocious Super Bowl outing.

I just think we'll still have David Carr next year, and Kubiak will look to deal him mid-season while also developing drafted QB and/or looking for mid-season acquisitions as he tries to trade David.

I'd say at least 85% chance DC is our QB going into camp.

I don't think the Plummer deal goes through. I think other teams will outbid us for Jake, just as they did for David Givens.

IMO, this is just a fishing expedition by our FO to try and see if other teams will come to the front and try to get Carr.

Honestly, do you WANT Jake as our QB next season? It's reported that he has this burning desire to play and to be competitive and blah-blah-blah...but I see a guy on the decline. I see a beer drinking party animal that has the personality of a fence post. THAT'S the guy that's better than DC? Jake reminds me of those QBs from the late 1970s who had shaggy facial hair, lumbered around on the field with one hip pad hanging out of his pants...the speed of a one-legged jaguar...and that far away look in his eyes that says "Where's the big party after the game?" There's a reason he got out-gunned by a rookie QB: His days are done and over with, IMO. Do we need to trade DC and get a guy who could care less about us? Does he project ANY image whatsoever that he's the future of an NFL team?

(Sigh)

God, please let this cup pass from us....

...Let us crush The Snake under our feet.
what;s the solution, then? a 37 year old garcia, a pocket passer in huard? you willing to wait for a possible 2007 draftee to blossom?

amazingandre
02-12-2007, 05:51 PM
so we pick plummer. then what in 2 years he retires. its a no win situation u repair the team for a year or 2 then we suck again.....we need to keep carr let the oline improve and get a rookie qb so kubiack can teach him. kubs supposedly is the master of it so let him show us all.

GuerillaBlack
02-12-2007, 06:02 PM
The easiest thing would have been not to extend Carr's contract. He still had years left, so why do it when he wasn't proven?

NATHANHALE
02-12-2007, 06:07 PM
There is a part of this scenario that I believe has not been 'touched' on enough, that being Carr's production numbers. How difficult will it be to replace those numbers with a newbie? ...not very.

During Carr's tenure, we've lost more games in the NFL and have been one of the lowest scoring teams. Excuses are not needed here because the point is the chances are pretty good that replacing Carr will not produce worse results--probably better.

11 tds in Carr's 5th year is not a 'big' stat to match, nor is a -5 yd or 86 yd game. In fact-for his 5 yr career-Carr has avg less than 12 tds a season.

JMO, but Carr has to go so this team can move forward. I believe Sage can do the job and would have the team behind him, as I'd think he would not require special treatment including 'coddling.'

Many posters have stated it and Kubiak made a 'big' point of it after the season that our #1 priority has got to be scoring points--only 4 teams scored fewer points than us in '06. And,no, expecting our defense to shut out every team so our offense can score just enough points to win is not the answer.....

infantrycak
02-12-2007, 06:09 PM
True, but if he were to stay on as a back up, it'd give the Broncos some sort of payback for the guaranteed money. Either way you look at it, whether it be the Texans or Broncos, they're going to take a substantial hit. Whether it be cap space or draft picks.

Would you rather pay the 5 million to a back up? Or to a player no longer on the roster? In order to compensate for that amount of money being paid to the player, a team that wanted the player would have to give up way too much.

I do not know a whole lot about salary cap issues. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. At least fill me in on why I'm wrong.:)

The article only gave half the picture. The cap hit for unprorated signing bonus may be $8.6 mil, but Plummer's base salary next year is $5.3 mil. The net effect is a loss of $3.3 mil in extra cap space, but remember money on the cap is not new money spent. Cut him and they don't spend $1 of new money, they just have to account for money already spent. Keep him, and they have to pay him $5.3 mil in new money. Plummer is a goner in some fashion from Denver.

Lucky
02-12-2007, 06:13 PM
The easiest thing would have been not to extend Carr's contract. He still had years left, so why do it when he wasn't proven?
The Texans had to either pickup Carr's option, or he became a FA.

hollywood_texan
02-12-2007, 06:15 PM
The Texans had to either pickup Carr's option, or he became a FA.

Exactly, Carr hit modest numbers in his contract laid out by Casserly that allowed him void the last 3 years.

It would have been interesting if the Texans had let him test the market. I don't think he would have gotten nearly that much money.

NATHANHALE
02-12-2007, 06:16 PM
The Texans had to either pickup Carr's option, or he became a FA.

True, but why reward him with a 3 yr instead of a 2 yr?

Honoring Earl 34
02-12-2007, 06:18 PM
The Texans had to either pickup Carr's option, or he became a FA.

OK he becomes a FA ... you think anybody is going to break the bank for him ... we bidded against ourselves .

NEROtheZERO
02-12-2007, 06:40 PM
I think Plummer will be a Chicago Bear before it's all said and done.

He has that Jim MacMahon "look" about him, has played in cold weather, and is an upgrade over Grossman. Grossman will likely not even be playing anywhere next year after his bad season and atrocious Super Bowl outing.

I just think we'll still have David Carr next year, and Kubiak will look to deal him mid-season while also developing drafted QB and/or looking for mid-season acquisitions as he tries to trade David.

I'd say at least 85% chance DC is our QB going into camp.

I don't think the Plummer deal goes through. I think other teams will outbid us for Jake, just as they did for David Givens.

IMO, this is just a fishing expedition by our FO to try and see if other teams will come to the front and try to get Carr.

Honestly, do you WANT Jake as our QB next season? It's reported that he has this burning desire to play and to be competitive and blah-blah-blah...but I see a guy on the decline. I see a beer drinking party animal that has the personality of a fence post. THAT'S the guy that's better than DC? Jake reminds me of those QBs from the late 1970s who had shaggy facial hair, lumbered around on the field with one hip pad hanging out of his pants...the speed of a one-legged jaguar...and that far away look in his eyes that says "Where's the big party after the game?" There's a reason he got out-gunned by a rookie QB: His days are done and over with, IMO. Do we need to trade DC and get a guy who could care less about us? Does he project ANY image whatsoever that he's the future of an NFL team?

(Sigh)

God, please let this cup pass from us....

...Let us crush The Snake under our feet.

Jeez, talking about unsubstantiated impressions.

Plummer won a post season game for the Cardinals and took the Broncos to the AFC Championship.

He also put up his best QB ratings, 60TD/34INT, and a 33-15 record under Kubiak.

Not to mention the fact that he knows our playbook and our system.

He might not be Favre, but he would be more than a sufficient bridge until we groom our future QB.

nunusguy
02-12-2007, 06:41 PM
Plummer is a goner in some fashion from Denver.
That looks more and more to be the scenario, but where does he go from there ? Some here seem to think he's dying to come to Houston because
of Kubiack, but it may be a lot more complicated than that. Even if he'd prefer
to play for Kubiak, the Texans and their future can't be particulary enticing to
Plummer. Especially if he has other opportunities with a team that's a real contender for the playoffs.

Lucky
02-12-2007, 07:31 PM
OK he becomes a FA ... you think anybody is going to break the bank for him ... we bidded against ourselves .
If the Texans had not picked up Carr's option, they weren't going to turn around and sign him as a free agent. They would have shown interest in Brees or looked to the draft. That does not mean Vince Young would have been the pick. Leinart and Cutler would have been possibilities, as well. And we know how much Shanahan liked Cutler for the Denver offense.

infantrycak
02-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Even if he'd prefer to play for Kubiak, the Texans and their future can't be particulary enticing to Plummer. Especially if he has other opportunities with a team that's a real contender for the playoffs.

Don't know where this conjecture comes from. How many real contenders are out there without starting QB's, i.e. where he will be almost guaranteed to start for a while? Plus, the relationship really does appear to matter along with already knowing much of the system. I don't see why he would go someplace else unless another team ponies up significantly more cash and that doesn't seem likely.

edo783
02-12-2007, 08:05 PM
Don't know where this conjecture comes from. How many real contenders are out there without starting QB's, i.e. where he will be almost guaranteed to start for a while? Plus, the relationship really does appear to matter along with already knowing much of the system. I don't see why he would go someplace else unless another team ponies up significantly more cash and that doesn't seem likely.

Chicago is the only true contender that comes to mind that might need Jake to get them to the dance again while they try and find a young guy to develope for a year or two, but IMO, I doubt they swing on him. If he can't get a Chicago like gig, he might as well go to Houston. At Least he will know the coach and the offense.

SamuraiSword
02-13-2007, 12:26 AM
The easiest thing would have been not to extend Carr's contract. He still had years left, so why do it when he wasn't proven?

you know I have been wondering myself that lately. Why would an organization re-sign someones contract when they were not proven with that much money involved? You don't see McClane and Alexander doing that too unproven commodities....It just doesn't make any sense :confused:

run-david-run
02-13-2007, 01:21 AM
OK he becomes a FA ... you think anybody is going to break the bank for him ... we bidded against ourselves .

I think resigning him was more of a (misplaced) show of confidence. It clearly said DC was going to be the QB and the new organization was behind him. That would be the only way of getting DC back without underminding him.

painekiller
02-13-2007, 01:23 AM
you know I have been wondering myself that lately. Why would an organization re-sign someones contract when they were not proven with that much money involved? You don't see McClane and Alexander doing that too unproven commodities....It just doesn't make any sense :confused:

Does the name Richard Hidalgo ring a bell? I cannot remember the names of all the bad contracts the Rockets signed after the Championships. But believe me there where many. We where in cap hell for a few years, that is why the team went into the tank.

That all said, in February on another board I wanted the team to franchise Carr at the most, let him walk in the least. Franchise and trade was my perfect plan. Let the new team get a new contract. We would have no dead money from Carr.

dirty steve
02-13-2007, 08:54 AM
Does the name Richard Hidalgo ring a bell? I cannot remember the names of all the bad contracts the Rockets signed after the Championships. But believe me there where many. We where in cap hell for a few years, that is why the team went into the tank.

does 44 home runs in 2000 ring a bell? a small sample size for sure, but at least he did it over the course of a full season and not the preseason like cato. the team lacked another substantial power threat other than Bagwell and wanted to try and get Hidalgo for cheaper than he might on the FA market.

you really think a team was willing to pay the average of the top QB's in the league for the guarantee of only one year from Carr

HOU-TEX
02-13-2007, 08:57 AM
The article only gave half the picture. The cap hit for unprorated signing bonus may be $8.6 mil, but Plummer's base salary next year is $5.3 mil. The net effect is a loss of $3.3 mil in extra cap space, but remember money on the cap is not new money spent. Cut him and they don't spend $1 of new money, they just have to account for money already spent. Keep him, and they have to pay him $5.3 mil in new money. Plummer is a goner in some fashion from Denver.

This is true. They didn't mention salary at all. I didn't know he was getting paid that amount of money. Now, as much as I'd like to see DC replaced. What would we have to give up to get Plummer? Wouldn't we have to offer something similar to compensate for what the Broncos cap hit will be? That's alot of jack and/or draft picks. Is it worth it?:shades:

Texans_Chick
02-13-2007, 09:01 AM
If the Texans had not picked up Carr's option, they weren't going to turn around and sign him as a free agent. They would have shown interest in Brees or looked to the draft. That does not mean Vince Young would have been the pick. Leinart and Cutler would have been possibilities, as well. And we know how much Shanahan liked Cutler for the Denver offense.

As ugly as it has been this last year at times with people beyotching about the Williams pick, I think Reliant Stadium would have been done burnt to the ground if we picked Leinart/Cutler over VY.

If there was a do-over at the QB position, people would have freaked had it not been VY.

That being said, the Texans might just end up doing the slower version of the same thing.

Honoring Earl 34
02-13-2007, 09:07 AM
I still think in three years Mario will be a top 3 DE in the league . I have to think he will justify himself eventually .

If they can settle the QB issue ... then they will have Mario and a QB . Right now though it's wishful thinking until it happens .