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DocBar
02-08-2007, 04:00 PM
Here's a pretty decent, objective read on DC and the Texans situation. I didn't see it on here, so I added it.

http://www.houstonprofootball.com/review/review61.html

Insideop
02-08-2007, 05:00 PM
Thanks for the link Doc.

He pretty much lays out the predicament the Texans are facing with everything hinging on the Carr situation. It's too bad it all has to come down to this, but I think it would be better for Carr to go than stay. Probably better for him to get a fresh start somewhere else, and better for us to start fresh with someone else too. I just hope they can get good value (what value is left) for him in return. Draft pick(s) would be good. JMHO!

Texans_Chick
02-08-2007, 05:33 PM
Nice article. A few guesses and observations...

Plummer loves Kubiak, Shanahan the younger as QB coach not withstanding. Shanny and Plummer will speak the same Denver language, and Kubiak will be doing the heavy lifting with the technique stuff.

Kubiak will dump Carr in a heartbeat if he things he can better deal at a okay price. They will be relentless all over the team to try to better deal it, to get their kinda guys.

I wish Mr. McNair hadn't commented on the situation other than the blanket statement that the team is looking to improve at all positions. Why trade with the Texans if you think we are going to just chuck him anyways? Letting him swing in the wind a bit also undercuts him if you want him to stay.

This is a totally messed up situation, and no matter the QB they won't be VY. Plummer was in the Elway shadow, but at least Elway was out of the league and you weren't facing him twice a year.

Double Barrel
02-08-2007, 06:15 PM
I think Carr will be back in 2007, along with a new face or two at QB. He'll have to compete for the job in training camp, but could win out the starting job anyway.

I think our options are limited, and it's a buyer's market right now. Cutting off the nose to spite the face is never good policy, regardless if the natives are restless.

SESupergenius
02-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Nice article. A few guesses and observations...

Plummer loves Kubiak, Shanahan the younger as QB coach not withstanding. Shanny and Plummer will speak the same Denver language, and Kubiak will be doing the heavy lifting with the technique stuff.

Kubiak will dump Carr in a heartbeat if he things he can better deal at a okay price. They will be relentless all over the team to try to better deal it, to get their kinda guys.

I wish Mr. McNair hadn't commented on the situation other than the blanket statement that the team is looking to improve at all positions. Why trade with the Texans if you think we are going to just chuck him anyways? Letting him swing in the wind a bit also undercuts him if you want him to stay.

This is a totally messed up situation, and no matter the QB they won't be VY. Plummer was in the Elway shadow, but at least Elway was out of the league and you weren't facing him twice a year.

That is exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't do the Carr situation ANY good to be talking like that. You damage your leverage in trying to trade him away and get something valuable in return and it hits the team players the wrong way if you plan to keep him because now the front office has lost confidence him, this may trickle down to the players. That is just a bad, bad move by the GM and owner. You never should talk down on something you are thinking of getting rid of. This is just as bad as saying we are going to take Williams with the first pick days in advance without letting the pressure fully materialize amongst all the other owners before draft time. Just stupid. Has anyone in the front office not played poker or had a job in retail????

nunusguy
02-08-2007, 06:43 PM
I wish Mr. McNair hadn't commented on the situation other than the blanket statement that the team is looking to improve at all positions.

I thought BMs comments were ambivalent and counterproductive.

hollywood_texan
02-08-2007, 06:48 PM
I think Carr will be back in 2007, along with a new face or two at QB. He'll have to compete for the job in training camp, but could win out the starting job anyway.

I think our options are limited, and it's a buyer's market right now. Cutting off the nose to spite the face is never good policy, regardless if the natives are restless.

DB, you hit the bullseye on this one!

I don't think Carr is going anywhere for financial reasons (dead cap money, an established vet will be moderately expensive, etc.). What this does do is it publicly puts Carr on the hot seat with no special treatment. Everyone knows it now, everyone knows what to expect, which are wins, and there are no more excuses.

Besides, the goal next year is to get to 10 wins and I don't think the Texans have to go crazy at the QB position to get there next year.

hollywood_texan
02-08-2007, 06:53 PM
That is exactly what I was thinking. It doesn't do the Carr situation ANY good to be talking like that. You damage your leverage in trying to trade him away and get something valuable in return and it hits the team players the wrong way if you plan to keep him because now the front office has lost confidence him, this may trickle down to the players. That is just a bad, bad move by the GM and owner. You never should talk down on something you are thinking of getting rid of. This is just as bad as saying we are going to take Williams with the first pick days in advance without letting the pressure fully materialize amongst all the other owners before draft time. Just stupid. Has anyone in the front office not played poker or had a job in retail????

Maybe you should look at it from a different perspective. If everyone sees the elephant in the room and no one admits it, then what does that breed in the organization?

This could actually boost morale in the organization, because like it or not, Carr was getting special treatment that no one else was getting.

As for selling Carr in a trade, no one is really going to buy off on him anyway. He is played 5 years in the league and Charlie Casserly isn't a GM in the NFL to pull off that type of Buchannon type trade. It doesn't matter what they say, everybody already knows about Carr! Besides, they probably shopped him anyway before McNair went public on his comments.

Texian
02-08-2007, 07:15 PM
Nice article. A few guesses and observations...

Plummer loves Kubiak, Shanahan the younger as QB coach not withstanding. Shanny and Plummer will speak the same Denver language, and Kubiak will be doing the heavy lifting with the technique stuff.

Kubiak will dump Carr in a heartbeat if he things he can better deal at a okay price. They will be relentless all over the team to try to better deal it, to get their kinda guys.

I wish Mr. McNair hadn't commented on the situation other than the blanket statement that the team is looking to improve at all positions. Why trade with the Texans if you think we are going to just chuck him anyways? Letting him swing in the wind a bit also undercuts him if you want him to stay.

This is a totally messed up situation, and no matter the QB they won't be VY. Plummer was in the Elway shadow, but at least Elway was out of the league and you weren't facing him twice a year.

So if Kubiak dumps Carr, brings in Plummer, Plummer plays worse than Carr, should/will Kubiak get fired?

McNair pulled a Dixie Chicks London routine, appeasing the audience, and you know how much trouble that caused them.

DocBar
02-08-2007, 07:24 PM
DB, you hit the bullseye on this one!

I don't think Carr is going anywhere for financial reasons (dead cap money, an established vet will be moderately expensive, etc.). What this does do is it publicly puts Carr on the hot seat with no special treatment. Everyone knows it now, everyone knows what to expect, which are wins, and there are no more excuses.

Besides, the goal next year is to get to 10 wins and I don't think the Texans have to go crazy at the QB position to get there next year.
What flavor is the kool-aid this year? I'm snapping back into reality and just hoping for .500. Hard to go from crawling to running even in the "Parity Era". I hope we walk in '07 and start runnig in '08. If we don't seriously get better up front and/or get one hellacious RB, we can expect the same old song and sack dance(would it be bad if he came up with one?) from Carr. The man needs some pro bowl caliber help or a fresh start somewhere else. He's shown that he's more like Trent Dilfer than Joe Montana. He's not gonna just "will" his team to victory. He's a game manager trying not to screw it up rather than a field general putting the screws to the other team.

old football fan
02-08-2007, 07:32 PM
Bad thing about this problem is that there are no real outstanding QB in the the draft. Next year will be a better year for QB's. the FA market is about the same no real oustanding QB's available. I know most Texans fans don't want him back but I think he will be back and if the coaches are smart they will not name a starting QB until the first game of the season which gives the QB's all training camp and preseason to decide who has won the starters position. IMHO(I was kind of dizzy when I wrote this):shots: :shots: :shots: :tease:

DocBar
02-08-2007, 07:48 PM
I think Russell is one of the best prospects in years. I would take him hands down. There are also SEVERAL very good prospects in the 2-3 round range. I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the majority of great QB's in league history have come from that area. Say, late 1st round to early 4th round.

old football fan
02-08-2007, 08:08 PM
I think Russell is one of the best prospects in years. I would take him hands down. There are also SEVERAL very good prospects in the 2-3 round range. I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the majority of great QB's in league history have come from that area. Say, late 1st round to early 4th round.

Russell certainly has all the tools but was just to up or down during the season. Quinn is just avg at best and the rest of the group are pretty much projects. I do agree with you the most of the great QB's have come from the late rounds. Marino, Brady, Montana just to name a few. Bradshaw also.

TwinSisters
02-08-2007, 08:21 PM
I think Carr will be back in 2007, along with a new face or two at QB. He'll have to compete for the job in training camp, but could win out the starting job anyway.

I think our options are limited, and it's a buyer's market right now. Cutting off the nose to spite the face is never good policy, regardless if the natives are restless.

Yes, I agree. I mean, I agree if you were actually cutting off the nose. But wisdom from California is more relevant than that of some old English nuns.

The rug ties the room together.

And if your rug has been peed on by your ex-wife's dog, it doesn't matter how much you clean it, you still have a rug that was peed on by your ex-wife's dog.

It might be more about changing out the rug, then cutting something important like a major sensory organ.

CowboysTexansFan
02-08-2007, 08:51 PM
I wasn't at all troubled by McNair's comments. As another poster mentioned, there is an elephant in the room and the team might as well acknowledge it. In fact, it already did several weeks ago when Rick Smith said the team wasn't comfortable with or satisfied with Carr's play and that he was looking to bring in someone who could challenge and possibly unseat him at QB. Those comments from the GM are anything but a vote of confidence in Carr.

In addition, those who criticize McNair on this board don't know all the facts. For example, what if it's known by the team's management that Carr has lost the confidence of too many of his teammates, and/or the coaches, so he will not be coming back in any event--even if he has to be released? And to be somewhat more cynical, what if season ticket renewals are lagging, and/or a number of holders of luxury suites and sponsors are basically saying they cannot fathom another season with Carr? Maybe it's just me, but my impression is that the team has been more aggressive in its marketing campaign than in previous offseasons.

As far as McNair's comments damaging Carr's trade value, he doesn't HAVE much trade value. It's not like teams are going to be lining up to trade a high pick for David Carr and his ridiculous salary when there's a reasonably good chance the team will simply release him. If last year Culpepper only fetched a 2nd round pick and Harrington a 5th/6th round pick (depending on performance), that more or less sets the market value for Carr, with Carr being closer to the Harrington side of the spectrum.

GNTLEWOLF
02-08-2007, 08:53 PM
[/U][/B]
What flavor is the kool-aid this year? I'm snapping back into reality and just hoping for .500. Hard to go from crawling to running even in the "Parity Era". I hope we walk in '07 and start runnig in '08. If we don't seriously get better up front and/or get one hellacious RB, we can expect the same old song and sack dance(would it be bad if he came up with one?) from Carr. The man needs some pro bowl caliber help or a fresh start somewhere else. He's shown that he's more like Trent Dilfer than Joe Montana. He's not gonna just "will" his team to victory. He's a game manager trying not to screw it up rather than a field general putting the screws to the other team.

Amen and amen to everything you said. This organization will walk before it runs. .500 might even be a bit ambitious. Without pro-bowl caliber help we might not win as many games as we did this last season. It doesn't matter who the QB is unless the Texans get some better than average o-line help, and a really explosive RB, this team is going nowhere. And I have to tell you folks, if you didn't like Carr, you won't like Plummer any better, unless upgrades are made at the two afore mentioned areas. And yes, Carr is no going to put the team on his back and snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat all by himself. He can manage a game as in a Trent Dilfer. As for any of the rookies coming out of the draft, I don't see any that are going to be any better than Carr has been. I hate to beat a dead horse even more, but if the Texans were wanting a difference making QB they should have taken one last year. But, That ship has sailed.

CowboysTexansFan
02-08-2007, 09:03 PM
Amen and amen to everything you said. This organization will walk before it runs. .500 might even be a bit ambitious. Without pro-bowl caliber help we might not win as many games as we did this last season. It doesn't matter who the QB is unless the Texans get some better than average o-line help, and a really explosive RB, this team is going nowhere. And I have to tell you folks, if you didn't like Carr, you won't like Plummer any better, unless upgrades are made at the two afore mentioned areas. And yes, Carr is no going to put the team on his back and snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat all by himself. He can manage a game as in a Trent Dilfer. As for any of the rookies coming out of the draft, I don't see any that are going to be any better than Carr has been. I hate to beat a dead horse even more, but if the Texans were wanting a difference making QB they should have taken one last year. But, That ship has sailed.

Your comments are perfectly sensible, but if all Carr is going to be is a Trent Dilfer-caliber QB, why are we paying him a Pro Bowler's salary? Sage may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'd be more than willing to give him a chance to be our game manager at his more reasonable salary. If Carr is not the answer, let's start looking for someone who is in the draft. I want a QB with whom the team can win a Super Bowl!

:)

The Pencil Neck
02-08-2007, 09:20 PM
Russell certainly has all the tools but was just to up or down during the season. Quinn is just avg at best and the rest of the group are pretty much projects. I do agree with you the most of the great QB's have come from the late rounds. Marino, Brady, Montana just to name a few. Bradshaw also.

Bradshaw was 1st round. He might have been a 1st overall but I don't remember offhand.

DocBar
02-08-2007, 09:21 PM
Your comments are perfectly sensible, but if all Carr is going to be is a Trent Dilfer-caliber QB, why are we paying him a Pro Bowler's salary? Sage may not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I'd be more than willing to give him a chance to be our game manager at his more reasonable salary. If Carr is not the answer, let's start looking for someone who is in the draft.

We're paying him #1 overall $$ cuz that's where he was selected. He's not performing because the Capers regime coddled him and refused to upgrade our OL, he's been sacked a bazillion times, he's had more offensive coordinators than you've had girlfriends, and Kubiak sees/saw potential in Carr and thinks/thought he could make the difference in his career. Hindsight sees 20/20 even when it's fuzzy. IMHO, the Texans let Carr down more than Carr let the Texans down. He deserves a CMH for the abuse he's taken. And, hopefully, a fresh start with another team.

TwinSisters
02-08-2007, 09:26 PM
Despite the lack of appealing alternatives, many fans are hell-bent for Carr to go and damn the consequences. The franchise must cut their losses and move on, they would tell you. In a sense, I agree simply because I want the whole situation to go away and for Texan fans to be in full support of their team once again. But, to many fans, the quarterback will always be the lightning rod of criticism when the team doesn't win. As long as the team continues to lose, no quarterback will be satisfactory to them.

This has been false in Houston for the first 3 years. And on the 4th, the coaches caught the wrath that comes with losing. It wasn't the QB.

CowboysTexansFan
02-08-2007, 09:27 PM
We're paying him #1 overall $$ cuz that's where he was selected. He's not performing because the Capers regime coddled him and refused to upgrade our OL, he's been sacked a bazillion times, he's had more offensive coordinators than you've had girlfriends, and Kubiak sees/saw potential in Carr and thinks/thought he could make the difference in his career. Hindsight sees 20/20 even when it's fuzzy. IMHO, the Texans let Carr down more than Carr let the Texans down. He deserves a CMH for the abuse he's taken. And, hopefully, a fresh start with another team.

I liked all of your comments, except that one!

:embarrass

TwinSisters
02-08-2007, 09:42 PM
Russell certainly has all the tools but was just to up or down during the season. Quinn is just avg at best and the rest of the group are pretty much projects. I do agree with you the most of the great QB's have come from the late rounds. Marino, Brady, Montana just to name a few. Bradshaw also.

here's the list of HOF QBs


1989 1 1 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys UCLA 2006
1984u 1 1 1 Steve Young Buccaneers Brigham Young 2005
1983 1 1 1 John Elway Colts Stanford 2004
1983 1 14 14 Jim Kelly Bills Miami (FL) 2002
1983 1 27 27 Dan Marino Dolphins Pittsburgh 2005
1979 3 26 82 Joe Montana 49ers Notre Dame 2000
1973 3 12 64 Dan Fouts Chargers Oregon 1993
1970 1 1 1 Terry Bradshaw Steelers Louisiana Tech 1989
1967 1 4 4 Bob Griese Dolphins Purdue 1990
1965 1 1 1 Joe Namath Jets Alabama 1985
1965 1 12 12 Joe Namath Cardinals Alabama 1985
1964 10 3 129 Roger Staubach Cowboys Navy 1985
1961 3 1 29 Fran Tarkenton Vikings Georgia 1986
1957 1 5 5 Len Dawson Steelers Purdue 1987
1957 4 6 43 Sonny Jurgensen Eagles Duke 1983
1956 17 7 200 Bart Starr Packers Alabama 1977
1955 9 5 102 Johnny Unitas Steelers Louisville 1979
1949 4 6 37 Norm Van Brocklin Rams Oregon 1971
1949 12 5 116 Jim Finks Steelers Tulsa 1995
1949 12 8 119 George Blanda Bears Kentucky 1981
1948 1 3 3 Bobby Layne Bears Texas 1967
1948 1 6 6 Y.A. Tittle Lions Louisiana State 1971
1944 1 4 4 Otto Graham Lions Northwestern 1965
1944 5 10 42 Bob Waterfield Rams UCLA 1965
1939 1 2 2 Sid Luckman Bears Columbia 1965
1937 1 6 6 Sammy Baugh Redskins Texas Christian 1963
1937 2 3 13 Clarence (Ace) Parker Dodgers Duke 1972

TwinSisters
02-08-2007, 10:13 PM
Either I'm not as cynical or more cynical than you, but I don't think the organization takes ticket renewals, etc into account when making football decisions. If they did, then real Bob would have demanded either Bush or Young last year. I think they are always trying to improve the non-football marketing part of the business.

No kidding around here:

I think you have to ask the question, Does a team play better when they have fan support?

'I' think the answer is yes. I think that your chances of winning increase when you score and the house is behind you. I think you have a better chance of winning when the house is making noise during the snap count.

So on that account the fans are a football decision. The ticket buying fan anyway ( at least the ones that can afford it ).

CowboysTexansFan
02-08-2007, 10:25 PM
here's the list of HOF QBs


1989 1 1 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys UCLA 2006
1984u 1 1 1 Steve Young Buccaneers Brigham Young 2005
1983 1 1 1 John Elway Colts Stanford 2004
1983 1 14 14 Jim Kelly Bills Miami (FL) 2002
1983 1 27 27 Dan Marino Dolphins Pittsburgh 2005
1979 3 26 82 Joe Montana 49ers Notre Dame 2000
1973 3 12 64 Dan Fouts Chargers Oregon 1993
1970 1 1 1 Terry Bradshaw Steelers Louisiana Tech 1989
1967 1 4 4 Bob Griese Dolphins Purdue 1990
1965 1 1 1 Joe Namath Jets Alabama 1985
1965 1 12 12 Joe Namath Cardinals Alabama 1985
1964 10 3 129 Roger Staubach Cowboys Navy 1985
1961 3 1 29 Fran Tarkenton Vikings Georgia 1986
1957 1 5 5 Len Dawson Steelers Purdue 1987
1957 4 6 43 Sonny Jurgensen Eagles Duke 1983
1956 17 7 200 Bart Starr Packers Alabama 1977
1955 9 5 102 Johnny Unitas Steelers Louisville 1979
1949 4 6 37 Norm Van Brocklin Rams Oregon 1971
1949 12 5 116 Jim Finks Steelers Tulsa 1995
1949 12 8 119 George Blanda Bears Kentucky 1981
1948 1 3 3 Bobby Layne Bears Texas 1967
1948 1 6 6 Y.A. Tittle Lions Louisiana State 1971
1944 1 4 4 Otto Graham Lions Northwestern 1965
1944 5 10 42 Bob Waterfield Rams UCLA 1965
1939 1 2 2 Sid Luckman Bears Columbia 1965
1937 1 6 6 Sammy Baugh Redskins Texas Christian 1963
1937 2 3 13 Clarence (Ace) Parker Dodgers Duke 1972

Great information, thanks.

I think Staubach should have an asterisk by his name, though, because while he was a 10th round pick, he was picked that low because had to serve 4 years in the U.S. Navy. If he hadn't gone to a military academy he would have undoubtedly been drafted in the 1st round.

DRAMA
02-09-2007, 09:19 PM
David Carr will not be a 'backup' for the Texans next year at his salary. Is he or is he not our starting QB?? THAT is the question that Kubes will be asking and answreing. If he is, he starts. If he is not, he's cut or traded. Those are really the only logical options.

Seriously, DC will not be a backup here. That makes no sense. If #8 from Fresno State returns, he's starting...

(At which point, I will inject heroin into the side of my eyeball and inhale through my nose a large bowl of cayenne pepper!) :tease:

old football fan
02-09-2007, 10:07 PM
here's the list of HOF QBs


1989 1 1 1 Troy Aikman Cowboys UCLA 2006
1984u 1 1 1 Steve Young Buccaneers Brigham Young 2005
1983 1 1 1 John Elway Colts Stanford 2004
1983 1 14 14 Jim Kelly Bills Miami (FL) 2002
1983 1 27 27 Dan Marino Dolphins Pittsburgh 2005
1979 3 26 82 Joe Montana 49ers Notre Dame 2000
1973 3 12 64 Dan Fouts Chargers Oregon 1993
1970 1 1 1 Terry Bradshaw Steelers Louisiana Tech 1989
1967 1 4 4 Bob Griese Dolphins Purdue 1990
1965 1 1 1 Joe Namath Jets Alabama 1985
1965 1 12 12 Joe Namath Cardinals Alabama 1985
1964 10 3 129 Roger Staubach Cowboys Navy 1985
1961 3 1 29 Fran Tarkenton Vikings Georgia 1986
1957 1 5 5 Len Dawson Steelers Purdue 1987
1957 4 6 43 Sonny Jurgensen Eagles Duke 1983
1956 17 7 200 Bart Starr Packers Alabama 1977
1955 9 5 102 Johnny Unitas Steelers Louisville 1979
1949 4 6 37 Norm Van Brocklin Rams Oregon 1971
1949 12 5 116 Jim Finks Steelers Tulsa 1995
1949 12 8 119 George Blanda Bears Kentucky 1981
1948 1 3 3 Bobby Layne Bears Texas 1967
1948 1 6 6 Y.A. Tittle Lions Louisiana State 1971
1944 1 4 4 Otto Graham Lions Northwestern 1965
1944 5 10 42 Bob Waterfield Rams UCLA 1965
1939 1 2 2 Sid Luckman Bears Columbia 1965
1937 1 6 6 Sammy Baugh Redskins Texas Christian 1963
1937 2 3 13 Clarence (Ace) Parker Dodgers Duke 1972

What makes it so sad is I've seen everyone of these guys play. One of the better QB's not in HOF was Dr. Frank Ryan from Rice and played for Browns.

NATHANHALE
02-09-2007, 10:55 PM
Great information, thanks.

I think Staubach should have an asterisk by his name, though, because while he was a 10th round pick, he was picked that low because had to serve 4 years in the U.S. Navy. If he hadn't gone to a military academy he would have undoubtedly been drafted in the 1st round.

...exactly, but look where Unitas was selected!!!...for me, the 'notion' you never know is alive and well...

The Pencil Neck
02-10-2007, 01:09 AM
...exactly, but look where Unitas was selected!!!...for me, the 'notion' you never know is alive and well...

And look who drafted him.

The Steelers RELEASED him before he ever played a game for them. He was playing semi-pro ball until the Colts picked him up.

TwinSisters
02-10-2007, 02:07 AM
What makes it so sad is I've seen everyone of these guys play. One of the better QB's not in HOF was Dr. Frank Ryan from Rice and played for Browns.

yeah, NFL Films has a nice 30 minute film on him.

He gets no respect... last Brown to ever win a Championship. But he sits behind Kosar and Sipe in the QB logs. He's also Condi's favourite player.