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Meloy
02-07-2007, 02:12 PM
First let me say, I think Kubes is the right guy for job & I am ecstatic about our most recent draft. That being said, he had film of all David Carr's games and input from several NFL types. Did he

1. Simply misjudge Carr?
2. Say what he thought he had to for the job.
3. Truly think he could improve DC enough to get by and is now admitting he was wrong. If so, is that on him or David or both.

Was the success of the draft more Casserly than some want to admit?
Was Mario over B/Y simply taking the easy way out for a coach not wanting to gamble on a RB or QB that could have failed just as easily?
Have the free agents Kubes picked really worked out?

Some if not all of these have been discussed, but now more time has elapsed and F/agency and another important draft loom. I say we are going to be just fine. What do you say?

DocBar
02-07-2007, 02:16 PM
You should make this a poll.
I pick option 3.
Kubes has been around great QB's his entire career and coached them. I think he underestimated the amount of shell-shock, happy feet and coddling that comes with Carr.

Lucky
02-07-2007, 02:28 PM
Not sure what the difference is between #1 & #3? In any case, I don't believe for a second it was #2.

Casserly's role in every draft has been overstated. The Texans have college scouts who evaluated the talent. The coaching staff then gave their input. I feel it was the coaches who had too much say in prior drafts (moving up for Babin, trading for P-Bust). Casserly is a builder of organizations, not a talent evaluator.

I'll always believe that Williams got the nod after McNair vetoed the Bush pick. Young was never really an option.

Have the bigger $$$ players Kubiak wanted worked out? TBD. But, Rick Smith has done a heck of a job since with street FA signings. That bodes well, I think.

real
02-07-2007, 02:29 PM
Way too early to give a final grade on Kubiak.

I like Kubiak and I think he is going to be a good coach for us. If I were going to grade him on what he did this past year I'd give him a C+. 6-10 is a bad record any way you slice it. He made a couple questionable calls as well. I thought he made the right decision on Carr, but the only thing I didn't like was letting him play the whole season. Carr should have lost his job at some point.

DocBar
02-07-2007, 02:35 PM
I would give Kubes a solid C. He looked like a rookie HC and was outcoached on several occaisions. He also had some questionable play calling, clock management and personnel moves. All in all, not the Cinderella story we hoped for, but far from a complete disaster. I think he handled adversity and controversy quite well, also.

Meloy
02-07-2007, 02:38 PM
Not sure what the difference is between #1 & #3? In any case, I don't believe for a second it was #2.

Casserly's role in every draft has been overstated. The Texans have college scouts who evaluated the talent. The coaching staff then gave their input. I feel it was the coaches who had too much say in prior drafts (moving up for Babin, trading for P-Bust). Casserly is a builder of organizations, not a talent evaluator.

I'll always believe that Williams got the nod after McNair vetoed the Bush pick. Young was never really an option.

Have the bigger $$$ players Kubiak wanted worked out? TBD. But, Rick Smith has done a heck of a job since with street FA signings. That bodes well, I think. My thoughts on 1 & 3 were 1: he saw the evidence but disregarded thinking he could fix anybody (ego) 3: He saw the good with the bad and try as he might he just could not get his point across. i admit when I typed it both were similar to me.

old football fan
02-07-2007, 02:44 PM
Way too early to give a final grade on Kubiak.

I like Kubiak and I think he is going to be a good coach for us. If I were going to grade him on what he did this past year I'd give him a C+. 6-10 is a bad record any way you slice it. He made a couple questionable calls as well. I thought he made the right decision on Carr, but the only thing I didn't like was letting him play the whole season. Carr should have lost his job at some point.

I like what you have said and I think we need to give Kubiak at least a passing grade for this year. Remember he is playing with somebody else's choices as far as players go.

TexansTrueFan
02-07-2007, 03:09 PM
to take this team from 2-14 to 6-10 is not to bad IMO, id give him a B-. But it was only his first year and he hasnt had much time to do what he thinks will win a championship with this team, so its hard to grade him. Ask this question again in 2 years. PLUS he only had us one win shy of matching the most wins in a season in or franchise. :) look at it that way !

Texans_Chick
02-07-2007, 03:27 PM
At the time that the option had to be picked up on Carr, Kubiak had been on the job a couple of weeks, had really mostly looked at tape, and tape that the coaches later said was mostly worthless because of scheme and protection. 2005 tape was hard to look at, and the 2004 tape showed some promising things until teams started concentrating on AJ in the later half of the season.

There are still people making the argument that Carr is good and it is the Texans protection that is crap:

See e.g.: Link (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/02/07/texans-owner-still-noncommittal-on-carr/)

If you are running Kubiak's offense, you want a QB with the physical skills of Carr--can throw on the run, can threaten with a deep ball, athletic etc. I'm guessing with a season of actually working with him, they are not sure that they can cure the Jerry Lewis moments.

Kubiak at Denver was never against upgrading at the QB position. Griese was kicked to the curb after he didn't pan out.

Ultimately, it has been a mistake to almost insulate the QB position as one where there is no competition, and then say that all the other positions do compete. Now they are just saying that all parts of the team are being evaluating for upgrade and nobody is given anything, no matter what their contract status.

Meloy
02-07-2007, 03:37 PM
At the time that the option had to be picked up on Carr, Kubiak had been on the job a couple of weeks, had really mostly looked at tape, and tape that the coaches later said was mostly worthless because of scheme and protection. 2005 tape was hard to look at, and the 2004 tape showed some promising things until teams started concentrating on AJ in the later half of the season.

There are still people making the argument that Carr is good and it is the Texans protection that is crap:

See e.g.: Link (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/02/07/texans-owner-still-noncommittal-on-carr/)

If you are running Kubiak's offense, you want a QB with the physical skills of Carr--can throw on the run, can threaten with a deep ball, athletic etc. I'm guessing with a season of actually working with him, they are not sure that they can cure the Jerry Lewis moments.

Kubiak at Denver was never against upgrading at the QB position. Griese was kicked to the curb after he didn't pan out.

Ultimately, it has been a mistake to almost insulate the QB position as one where there is no competition, and then say that all the other positions do compete. Now they are just saying that all parts of the team are being evaluating for upgrade and nobody is given anything, no matter what their contract status."The Jerry Lewis" moments-- are those due to DC panic/ sack shock or knowledge/experience issues? IMO the former might not be fixable but the latter should be. No one has knocked David's intelligence just decision making at times. Maybe I missed it but have you voiced your opinion on Carr? Stay or go?

TexansTrueFan
02-07-2007, 03:46 PM
At the time that the option had to be picked up on Carr, Kubiak had been on the job a couple of weeks, had really mostly looked at tape, and tape that the coaches later said was mostly worthless because of scheme and protection. 2005 tape was hard to look at, and the 2004 tape showed some promising things until teams started concentrating on AJ in the later half of the season.

There are still people making the argument that Carr is good and it is the Texans protection that is crap:

See e.g.: Link (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/02/07/texans-owner-still-noncommittal-on-carr/)

If you are running Kubiak's offense, you want a QB with the physical skills of Carr--can throw on the run, can threaten with a deep ball, athletic etc. I'm guessing with a season of actually working with him, they are not sure that they can cure the Jerry Lewis moments.

Kubiak at Denver was never against upgrading at the QB position. Griese was kicked to the curb after he didn't pan out.

Ultimately, it has been a mistake to almost insulate the QB position as one where there is no competition, and then say that all the other positions do compete. Now they are just saying that all parts of the team are being evaluating for upgrade and nobody is given anything, no matter what their contract status.

Carr can be good, if we can get him over beign shell shocked, the boy rushes every thing now because he is so used to never having time. IF he played a few times and saw he was getting time than maybe we could judge. But you cant just look at carr and say wow he sucks, and a new QB will make it all better cause the next QB is gonna have the same crappy protection that Carr has.

old football fan
02-07-2007, 03:57 PM
In defense of Kubiak, you can lead a horse(Carr) to water(knowledge), but you can't make him drink(change bad habits).

threetoedpete
02-07-2007, 04:06 PM
At the time that the option had to be picked up on Carr, Kubiak had been on the job a couple of weeks, had really mostly looked at tape, and tape that the coaches later said was mostly worthless because of scheme and protection. 2005 tape was hard to look at, and the 2004 tape showed some promising things until teams started concentrating on AJ in the later half of the season.

An:

See e.g.: Link (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/02/07/texans-owner-still-noncommittal-on-carr/)

If you are running Kubiak's offense, you want a QB with the physical skills of Carr--can throw on the run, can threaten with a deep ball, athletic etc. I'm guessing with a season of actually working with him, they are not sure that they can cure the Jerry Lewis moments.

Kubiak at Denver was never against upgrading at the QB position. Griese was kicked to the curb after he didn't pan out.

Ultimately, it has been a mistake to almost insulate the QB position as one where there is no competition, and then say that all the other positions do compete. Now they are just saying that all parts of the team are being evaluating for upgrade and nobody is given anything, no matter what their contract status.

Great analysis TC:

The fact of the matter is and you can look it up...we've got a fifty pick, two sixty five picks anchoring our o-line. That's a fact. The free agents they've brought in have been abysmal in the o-line. You can swim in the dead cap money waters to see that. Kubiak is being bombed because of the results of last season. Kubes couldn't resurrect what has been damaged beyond all reason. Carr does it in practice... "jumps the shark" as you say in the games. Therefore kubiak is a "solid" "c" coach. So this dog can't hunt no more. Kubiak couldn't roll away the stone with David Carr.... coupled with what was left in the cupboard by the previos regieme. Is it a function of Kubiack being stupid or incompetent ? Or....has the overall tallent on this team been highly over evaluated by a lot of folks on this board ? I mean , Chicago just went to the super bowl with a loose canon at quarterback. Look down the rosters...notice the difference.

What I find absolutly astounding about some of these threads in here, the same people who don't have a clue...are the ones blasting away.

This IS thier first draft together. As posted previously, they've done a great job at plugging holes that I thought couldn't be pluged. Won two more games last year than they shoud have. Might want to get them a fair shot at a couple of off seasons before you run them out of town on a rail.

Which ever way they go on DC, I'm on board. The bottom line for me is untill they address the lines and build from the inside out...we will always be NFL bottom feeders. No matter what skill guys they bring in, no matter who the coach is, we are not going anywhere untill some one fixes what has been broken for five years. I can stand it as long as you can.

TexansTrueFan
02-07-2007, 04:33 PM
In defense of Kubiak, you can lead a horse(Carr) to water(knowledge), but you can't make him drink(change bad habits).

You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make him drink. Well if he dont drink he dies, but you do give him the CHANCE to drink dont you ?

dirty steve
02-07-2007, 04:41 PM
Great analysis TC:



This IS thier first draft together. As posted previously, they've done a great job at plugging holes that I thought couldn't be pluged. Won two more games last year than they shoud have. Might want to get them a fair shot at a couple of off seasons before you run them out of town on a rail.

Which ever way they go on DC, I'm on board. The bottom line for me is untill they address the lines and build from the inside out...we will always be NFL bottom feeders. No matter what skill guys they bring in, no matter who the coach is, we are not going anywhere untill some one fixes what has been broken for five years. I can stand it as long as you can.
nice job. i am dealing with the fact Peterson probably wont be there when we pick. levi brown is starting to sound more and more enticing, whether it's at the #8 or a trade down. you never know, brown's stock is going up and might warrant a selection at #8 after the pro day workouts and the combine.

The Pencil Neck
02-07-2007, 04:45 PM
Which ever way they go on DC, I'm on board.


I think that pretty much sums up my feeling on... well... pretty much everything Texan. I trust Kubiak and Smith to do the right things. If they decide it's best to go with Carr, I'll go along with that. Whoever they put on the field, I'll be cheering them on.

I just believe that there have to be better options than Carr and I expect Kubiak/Smith to make some sort of change at that position.

Texian
02-07-2007, 09:53 PM
I am of the school that it takes two full years (seasons) to fully evaluate a head coach. Kubiak gets high marks for his mid term grade for improving to a 6 win season. That is a 200% improvement. When you take into consideration he did this with 17 players going on IR in the course of the year, it is even more impressive. Evaluating consistency will be very difficult if not impossible when your starting line ups change weekly due to the IR. I believe the Texans win 1 or 2 more games without all the injuries. Again, this is an evaluation that is most difficult or impossible to prove.

Now if Kubiak ends up discarding Carr this year his marks go down. The main reason being, what he passed up to resign Carr. Kubiak had 4 years of tape to evaluate. To say the tapes are no good because of the scheme, is a cop out and a very poor excuse. That is to say, throw away all tape of any player evaluations that are not playing in your system, Phooey! The main problem Kubiak has with Carr, is David gets careless with the football. Double digit fumbles drives the coach crazy. Not many good QBs, if any have double digit fumbles. Every QB is going to throw INTs, it is the ones thrown into double and triple coverage that make you want to spit.

To bring in Plummer would be just a repeat of giving Carr the extension. Plummer was benched for a rookie because he continually made many of these same mistakes. Broncos could not envision Plummer holding the Lombardi Trophy and why should the Texans? Bringing in Plummer is the same mistake of resigning Carr. Those decisions, if made, will have set the Texans back several years in good QB play and the reasons that could end the career of Kubiak as Head Coach of Houston Texans.

yourfavoritetexan42
02-07-2007, 10:52 PM
The Kubiak/Carr Question:

I think Kubiak in all honesty just wants to work with carr for another year, and he knows that carr is the most valuable available quarterback for us next season. You ask any coach/player around the league, retired. They all say, "Carr is a good player, its just hard to tell because of the poor o line play, so many difference schemes, and the inconsistent rushing attack"

1st Question:

I never though Casselry had that bad of drafts... Travis Johnson was a reach yes, and honestly p buch was a good trade at the time, we needed a #2 corner, and buchanan (at the time) was more proven than any other corner in that draft. Other than that there has been plenty of players he drafted that have been good pickups, for example: Chester Pitts, Andre Johnson, Dunta Robinson, Domanick Davis, Jerome Mathis, Mario Williams, Demeco Ryans, Owen Daniels, Wali Lundy etc.

2nd Question:

No, Vince Young was outruled because at that time quarterback wasn't a need. Reggie Bush was a top talent, however we thought domanick davis, who already was a dual threat back, was going to come back healthy. Therefor a genetic freak like mario williams was a good choice...and I still think it was. I saw glimpses of total domination this season out of mario... it will be scary when he is healthy and has talent around him.

3rd Question:

Eric Moulds worked out, was a reliable receiver, took pressure off AJ, and AJ had his best season yet, and is going to the probowl. Jeb Putzier got overshadowed by a rookie. Anthony Weaver proved to be valuable. Flanagan got owned by injuries. Overall I would say we did a decent job bringing in free agents last season. Some workout, some don't, thats just how it works out.

South Texan
02-08-2007, 01:08 AM
Despite several key injuries (Spencer, never having Domick, Daniels, Matihis for only a few returns, etc.) the guys seemed to be getting some chemistry going at the end of the year. And they beat Indy... nuff said on that. Considering what Kubiak inherited in his rookie year, I would have to give him a solid B.

Fix Carr's head next year (assuming Carr is still around) and that goes to an A.

Texans Horror
02-08-2007, 08:39 AM
First let me say, I think Kubes is the right guy for job & I am ecstatic about our most recent draft. That being said, he had film of all David Carr's games and input from several NFL types. Did he

1. Simply misjudge Carr?
2. Say what he thought he had to for the job.
3. Truly think he could improve DC enough to get by and is now admitting he was wrong. If so, is that on him or David or both.

Was the success of the draft more Casserly than some want to admit?
Was Mario over B/Y simply taking the easy way out for a coach not wanting to gamble on a RB or QB that could have failed just as easily?
Have the free agents Kubes picked really worked out?

Some if not all of these have been discussed, but now more time has elapsed and F/agency and another important draft loom. I say we are going to be just fine. What do you say?

Casserly did a great job on the draft. After one season, it looks like it was their best draft. But I think Rick Smith will do just as well, if not better. He and Kubes apparently gel very well together.

I don't think Mario was the safe pick. He was the only pick. Reggie Bush has shown off-field problems. I suspect the FO had some hint of it in interviews and all their probing. I think VY was never seriously considered for the job. Also, I think this pick will always come back to haunt the Texans until Mario Williams gets Defensive Player of the Year.

I think the Texans are going to be fine this year. I think they will bring in key players through the draft and free agency. I expect to see 5-8 new faces on the field next September, and I expect the Texans to build on the season this year.

As much as I hate incremental change, I have to admit: in one season, Kubiak finished one win behind the Texans best season ever.

nunusguy
02-08-2007, 10:15 AM
I'll always believe that Williams got the nod after McNair vetoed the Bush pick. Young was never really an option.


That's always been my take also, but to a point.
I never seem to tire of second guessing that Draft and that pick, because
I don't think we know the full and complete story and I think it was the single
most important Draft pick the Texans ever had.
What I'm still puzzled about to this day is why didn't the Texans trade the pick ? And I don't for a moment buy the story that they couldn't successfully negotiate a trade.
I can't believe that after having months and months to prepare for the Draft, knowing all that time that they had the #1, why there wasn't a fall back position in the event they cooled on Bush ?
The only explanation I can come up with was that they were so sold on Bush
that it never occured to them, for any reason, that they wouldn't take him ?
And that just does not seem plausible ?

dbspi
02-08-2007, 12:25 PM
The Kubiak/Carr Question:

I never though Casselry had that bad of drafts... Travis Johnson was a reach yes, and honestly p buch was a good trade at the time, we needed a #2 corner, and buchanan (at the time) was more proven than any other corner in that draft. Other than that there has been plenty of players he drafted that have been good pickups, for example: Chester Pitts, Andre Johnson, Dunta Robinson, Domanick Davis, Jerome Mathis, Mario Williams, Demeco Ryans, Owen Daniels, Wali Lundy etc.

All the problems which we are facing today is mainly due to Casserley bad draft picks and personnel decisions. Go back and check the record to see how many draft picks Texans had as an expansion team the first three years then go back and check for all the players drafted and how many of them are on the team or for that matter in the league.

If all the draft picks were utilized properly then we would not have been lacking in talent. The worst mistake that Mr. Bob McNair made was to hire Charlie Casserley as GM and even worst was the hiring of Capers as HC. Capers would have been great DC but he is not a HC material and he never will be.

Kubiak is the right hire for this team but it will still take him solid 2 more years to bring in the personnel he needs to be successful HC in Houston. I imagine Texans will be cutting their loses with allot of players who simply were either over evaluated by previous administration, or don't fit the scheme, or are too injury prone with high salary to play full season.

TJ is not the only mistake by the previous administration. For the price we paid for Babin thinking that he will be some one like Merriman clone and just look at the production he has given us for the past couple of years either as DE or OLB. This just goes to show you how ineptitude the previous administration were.

dbspi
02-08-2007, 12:33 PM
I sincerely hope that if AP is available at #8 then Texans should select him but for some reason if AP is drafted ahead of us then it would be better served to trade down a few spot and pick up few more draft picks unless Texans fall in love with Okoye, Branch, or Anderson at #8. Out side of AP, I really would like to see Texans finally do something to fix the OL and DL in this draft.

NATHANHALE
02-08-2007, 12:39 PM
I sincerely hope that if AP is available at #8 then Texans should select him but for some reason if AP is drafted ahead of us then it would be better served to trade down a few spot and pick up few more draft picks unless Texans fall in love with Okoye, Branch, or Anderson at #8. Out side of AP, I really would like to see Texans finally do something to fix the OL and DL in this draft.

As far as DL, we have drafted 3 1st rounders, maybe it's the coaching...

Meloy
02-08-2007, 04:03 PM
I think the dline will be much better due to health. Travis Johnson was making some progress before injury & most seem to like Thomas Johnson. Mario will continue to click and Weaver will hold steady. I think Malone, Cochran and Maddox will fight for a spot. A solid corner to go with DRob should help backers and line.

hollywood_texan
02-08-2007, 05:26 PM
At the time that the option had to be picked up on Carr, Kubiak had been on the job a couple of weeks, had really mostly looked at tape, and tape that the coaches later said was mostly worthless because of scheme and protection. 2005 tape was hard to look at, and the 2004 tape showed some promising things until teams started concentrating on AJ in the later half of the season.


Are you sticking up for Kubiak and that he didn't have enough information, or maybe more precise information?

If keeping Carr was Kubiak's decision, he really screwed up. I don't care what the tape is, what offense is being run, the conditions, or whatever...

Kubiak is paid millions of dollars and there was enough there on tape for him to make an informed decision based on his offense and the years of coaching. Besides, you could make this same excuse for every free agent move and draft pick. You are never going to get tape on a player doing exactly what you want done in your scheme.

That is the trick, analyzing the tape and determining if IT is there relative to your team needs.

If Kubiak can't do that, then he has no business being the head coach of the Houston Texans!

If he made a mistake on evaluating Carr, fair enough, but learn from the mistake in the evaluation process and try not to do it again.

TC, your analysis is similar to the main Carr excuse regarding pass protection. Look where that got Carr...

I believe Kubiak didn't have a choice, if he wanted the job last year, he had to take Carr.

Texans_Chick
02-12-2007, 03:58 PM
Are you sticking up for Kubiak and that he didn't have enough information, or maybe more precise information?

If keeping Carr was Kubiak's decision, he really screwed up. I don't care what the tape is, what offense is being run, the conditions, or whatever...

Kubiak is paid millions of dollars and there was enough there on tape for him to make an informed decision based on his offense and the years of coaching. Besides, you could make this same excuse for every free agent move and draft pick. You are never going to get tape on a player doing exactly what you want done in your scheme.

That is the trick, analyzing the tape and determining if IT is there relative to your team needs.

If Kubiak can't do that, then he has no business being the head coach of the Houston Texans!

If he made a mistake on evaluating Carr, fair enough, but learn from the mistake in the evaluation process and try not to do it again.

TC, your analysis is similar to the main Carr excuse regarding pass protection. Look where that got Carr...

I believe Kubiak didn't have a choice, if he wanted the job last year, he had to take Carr.

I believe that Kubiak did what most teams would do under the circumstances.

I think that most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr and not drafted QB in 2006 based on what was seen in 2004 and accounting for the talent level around him. The 2005 offense was a cluster in action, and nobody could use that tape.

You know that I am as big of a VY as just about anyone, but given the poor job his agent did shepherding him through the draft process, if the Titans did not take him at #3, there is no telling where he would have been drafted.

Kubiak looking at tape of Carr is not the same as working with Carr on a daily basis. Based on his skill set, Carr should be able to run Kubiak's offense. He can throw on the rollouts and has a strong arm.

That being said, I am not sure of the factors that went into deciding to re-up Carr's option for 3 years.

Honoring Earl 34
02-12-2007, 04:05 PM
Is there a difference in being capable of doing it and can he do it ?

On film he is capable ... you can't tell if he can by watching film .

Meloy
02-12-2007, 04:11 PM
I am probably way off planet here, but I just believe that Kubes wants another year of working with Carr. Combine that with what is available to replace DC this year + McNair's feelings about DC and his loyalty to those that work with him, I see David in a Texans uni this season.

amazingandre
02-12-2007, 04:20 PM
I hope Carr is the starting qb this coming year......

Meloy
02-12-2007, 05:20 PM
I believe that Kubiak did what most teams would do under the circumstances.

I think that most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr and not drafted QB in 2006 based on what was seen in 2004 and accounting for the talent level around him. The 2005 offense was a cluster in action, and nobody could use that tape.

You know that I am as big of a VY as just about anyone, but given the poor job his agent did shepherding him through the draft process, if the Titans did not take him at #3, there is no telling where he would have been drafted.

Kubiak looking at tape of Carr is not the same as working with Carr on a daily basis. Based on his skill set, Carr should be able to run Kubiak's offense. He can throw on the rollouts and has a strong arm.

That being said, I am not sure of the factors that went into deciding to re-up Carr's option for 3 years.I don't think you answered my earlier question about your personal opinion if Carr should be back?

run-david-run
02-12-2007, 05:25 PM
I hope Carr is the starting qb this coming year......
I hope the best QB available to the Texans (that does not include using that #8) is the starting QB, whomever that may be.

hollywood_texan
02-12-2007, 06:14 PM
I believe that Kubiak did what most teams would do under the circumstances.

I think that most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr and not drafted QB in 2006 based on what was seen in 2004 and accounting for the talent level around him. The 2005 offense was a cluster in action, and nobody could use that tape.

You know that I am as big of a VY as just about anyone, but given the poor job his agent did shepherding him through the draft process, if the Titans did not take him at #3, there is no telling where he would have been drafted.

Kubiak looking at tape of Carr is not the same as working with Carr on a daily basis. Based on his skill set, Carr should be able to run Kubiak's offense. He can throw on the rollouts and has a strong arm.

That being said, I am not sure of the factors that went into deciding to re-up Carr's option for 3 years.

If Kubiak reviewed the tape on Carr and personally decided Carr should have been resigned for $8 million, then he really needs to reconsider his skills as a tape evaluator!!!! Kubiak has spent too much time in the league to not be able to evaluate talent as it relates to his system, particularly if the tape is a current player with significant time in the NFL.

The Texans are in BIG TIME TROUBLE if Kubiak missed this and he doesn't figure out how to improve his tape evaluation skills. If he got the Carr evaulation wrong, how did he evaluate the 2006 draft class so well?

The Carr resigning was the single most important decision last year!

As I said earlier, I don't believe Kubiak was sold on Carr and he took the job despite the situation with Carr.

As for your quote "most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr." Who cares what other people think? By that logic, the Texans should have drafted Reggie Bush, but they didn't!

As for your other quote, "given the poor job his agent did shepherding him through the draft process, if the Titans did not take him at #3, there is no telling where he would have been drafted." This just proves my theory that most of these talent evaluators aren't that smart or more skilled than the average Joe. What does an agent have to with what a player can do on the field?

Doing "what most teams would do under the circumstances" will not get you to the Super Bowl.

As you can see, I take issue with several items of your FOOTBALL LOGIC!

mamoo
02-12-2007, 06:23 PM
As much as it pains many, #2 had a lot to do with why Carr was here last year. I heard from some that those who interviewed for the Texans job and didn't believe in Carr were not considered for the job. Now with a year of seeing what Carr can do (which is a lot physically) and can't do (which is read defenses), we can expect a change at QB. It won't happen that quickly.

Texans_Chick
02-12-2007, 06:34 PM
If Kubiak reviewed the tape on Carr and personally decided Carr should have been resigned for $8 million, then he really needs to reconsider his skills as a tape evaluator!!!! Kubiak has spent too much time in the league to not be able to evaluate talent as it relates to his system, particularly if the tape is a current player with significant time in the NFL.

The Texans are in BIG TIME TROUBLE if Kubiak missed this and he doesn't figure out how to improve his tape evaluation skills. If he got the Carr evaulation wrong, how did he evaluate the 2006 draft class so well?

The Carr resigning was the single most important decision last year!

As I said earlier, I don't believe Kubiak was sold on Carr and he took the job despite the situation with Carr.

As for your quote "most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr." Who cares what other people think? By that logic, the Texans should have drafted Reggie Bush, but they didn't!

As for your other quote, "given the poor job his agent did shepherding him through the draft process, if the Titans did not take him at #3, there is no telling where he would have been drafted." This just proves my theory that most of these talent evaluators aren't that smart or more skilled than the average Joe. What does an agent have to with what a player can do on the field?

Doing "what most teams would do under the circumstances" will not get you to the Super Bowl.

As you can see, I take issue with several items of your FOOTBALL LOGIC!

Hmmm. You LAMBAST KUBIAK for doing what most football teams would have done UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

I was merely pointing out that what he did given the timing of how much time he spent with Carr wasn't terribly out of the ordinary. He did not have extensive time working with Carr before Carr's option was picked up. Kubiak was hired, and basically the first thing that had to be done was dealing with the option.

Dan Reeves, consulting with the Texans, and not just relying on tape, believed that Carr wasn't the problem. Physically, Carr has all the tools to run a Denver style offense. Sometimes he showed it last season.

Who knows, maybe he could still be successful in that sort of a system if he had any running backs with him that any team in the league would want to have or an offensive line that was not a revolving door. I know that is something that most people are tired of hearing, but I mention it merely as something that might actually be the truth.

Perhaps you take issue with my FOOTBALL LOGIC, because it doesn't fit into your thesis. You believe that Kubiak wasn't sold on Carr but was forced to keep him. You provide no facts to support your opinion at all. And it flies into every public statement ever made about this subject, and in the face of what most teams would have done under the same circumstances.

And just in case you need them, here's some extra exclamation points for good measure!!!!!!

Texans_Chick
02-12-2007, 06:38 PM
As much as it pains many, #2 had a lot to do with why Carr was here last year. I heard from some that those who interviewed for the Texans job and didn't believe in Carr were not considered for the job. Now with a year of seeing what Carr can do (which is a lot physically) and can't do (which is read defenses), we can expect a change at QB. It won't happen that quickly.

Who are the coaches who didn't believe in Carr and therefore were not considered for the job?

I listen for gossip, and I haven't heard this one.

mamoo
02-12-2007, 06:41 PM
I didn't ask since it was just a mention in casual conversation about something else. That and Kubiak was the front runner all along, he just needed to say he could do something with Carr. He did make him better, but not enough to warrant another season.

Texans_Chick
02-12-2007, 06:51 PM
I don't think you answered my earlier question about your personal opinion if Carr should be back?

I believe I am not in a position to say.

Factors for him staying:

If Kubiak thinks he is fixable and most of his teammates do not want to dump him in the grease.

Factors for him leaving:

If there is a better alternative out there for a good price, if Kubiak doesn't think he is fixable and/or if he believes that he has lost too many of his teammates.

I worry some about the point of view that dumps everything on the inconsistency of Carr because I think are bigger problems that that. Even so, in a short season, you can't have train wreck, poorly managed games that puts your team out of it.

I believe that the running back position and the blocking last year was a joke. At running back, the Texans had two guys playing significant minutes that weren't in camp and a rookie 6th rounder. The Texans offensive line had more turnover than any in the league except for AZ, and even then, even at their best and healthiest, they were nothing to write home about.

Early in the season, it was amazing that Carr could throw the ball at all given that there was no running game for most of that time. In the past, if there was no running game, there was no offense at all.

So there is your non-answer. The short version is that I don't pretend to be qualified to say whether Carr should be back or not. I will say I am not terribly enthused about the options that might be available. I would love to be pleasantly surprised on this.

Texans_Chick
02-12-2007, 06:53 PM
I didn't ask since it was just a mention in casual conversation about something else. That and Kubiak was the front runner all along, he just needed to say he could do something with Carr. He did make him better, but not enough to warrant another season.

Kubiak was the front runner because:

a. he was qualified and

b. he wouldn't see the Texans job as just a stepping stone coaching job to his real dream job. There ain't too many coaches in the league that would see the Texans job as his dream job other than just a dream paycheck.

hollywood_texan
02-12-2007, 07:03 PM
Hmmm. You LAMBAST KUBIAK for doing what most football teams would have done UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

I was merely pointing out that what he did given the timing of how much time he spent with Carr wasn't terribly out of the ordinary. He did not have extensive time working with Carr before Carr's option was picked up. Kubiak was hired, and basically the first thing that had to be done was dealing with the option.

Dan Reeves, consulting with the Texans, and not just relying on tape, believed that Carr wasn't the problem. Physically, Carr has all the tools to run a Denver style offense. Sometimes he showed it last season.

Who knows, maybe he could still be successful in that sort of a system if he had any running backs with him that any team in the league would want to have or an offensive line that was not a revolving door. I know that is something that most people are tired of hearing, but I mention it merely as something that might actually be the truth.

Perhaps you take issue with my FOOTBALL LOGIC, because it doesn't fit into your thesis. You believe that Kubiak wasn't sold on Carr but was forced to keep him. You provide no facts to support your opinion at all. And it flies into every public statement ever made about this subject, and in the face of what most teams would have done under the same circumstances.

And just in case you need them, here's some extra exclamation points for good measure!!!!!!

First off, in my opinion, you don't get to the Super Bowl by following what other the herd mentality is, which is primarily the media anyway. Besides, if the Texans are going to do what everybody else would do anyway, we don't need Kubiak.

I remember somewhere on the messageboard that you were at Super Bowl activities asking football people if they thought Carr was more of the problem than the solution for the Texans. Who is going to say Carr is the problem? It isn't going to be said publicly in so many words, it just isn't the way our society works in general. Anyway, that's like a like a guy asking another guy, who don't know each other, if his wife is ugly. What do you think the other guy is going to say?

You are right, I don't know if Kubiak made the Carr decision or it was a part of the deal when he accepted the job. I thought I made that clear when I discussed it in my previous post.

If Kubiak wanted to keep Carr and he based that on his evaulation of the tape, he needs to rethink how evaluates players because he really screwed it up! Yet, what doesn't make sense though is that he can't evaluate NFL game film of Carr as it relates to his system, but he can evaluate college game film to draft what appears to be a pretty good draft class of 2006. It just doesn't wash when you look at it that way.

I won't even get into the Carr excuses you laid out except to say some guys have been more successful with less...

thunderkyss
02-12-2007, 09:31 PM
First let me say, I think Kubes is the right guy for job & I am ecstatic about our most recent draft. That being said, he had film of all David Carr's games and input from several NFL types. Did he

1. Simply misjudge Carr?
2. Say what he thought he had to for the job.
3. Truly think he could improve DC enough to get by and is now admitting he was wrong. If so, is that on him or David or both.

Was the success of the draft more Casserly than some want to admit?
Was Mario over B/Y simply taking the easy way out for a coach not wanting to gamble on a RB or QB that could have failed just as easily?
Have the free agents Kubes picked really worked out?

Some if not all of these have been discussed, but now more time has elapsed and F/agency and another important draft loom. I say we are going to be just fine. What do you say?

First, let me say that I think Kubiak felt a little more pressure to win, than he should have. He made some questionable calls early in the year, that IMHO, got him started on the wrong foot, early in his career.

Personally when a running back fumbles, I like to see a coach go right back to him, show confidence in that player, and the team. But he put Wali on the bench for what 4 or 5 games?? Then, it was late into the year, before we had three running backs on the roster.... he opted to go with two. You'd think coming from Denver, you'd think he could evaluate which running back he'd need to go with, let them work with the line, and produce on Sunday.

But the way he kept changing running backs from week to week, made him look desperate...... which he may have been, but games like Dallas.... it didn't matter who was in the backfield. They played a damn good game.

But now, David.

I personally don't understand why so many Homers turned on him. I can't imagine them expecting better from David..... he pretty much played the way he always played.... & he played at the end of the year about the same as he played at the beginning of the year. The only difference, IMHO, is that you couldn't blame the Running game, or the defense as easily as you could earlier in the year.

The only thing I can imagine Kubiak being upset about, is that David is making the wrong reads...... most plays are designed to stress a safety, or a LB in zone coverage....... or take advantage of a mismatch in man coverage. Of course, that is assuming the recievers did their part. & since I haven't heard Kubiak call out any of the recievers(until recently) I have to assume they were performing satisfactorily.

But........ Oakland, the #1 pass defense, and New England(confuses Peyton(superbowl MVP) Manning.... what did you expect, especially when you start taking the ball out of his hands(David has always been a slow starter).

I'm not a David Carr fan...... I don't think he should've started in '06, I don't think he should start in '07.

But....... if Kubiak says David is his man, and he will work with David help him be successful in the NFL, I didn't believe Kubiak would pull him for bad play, & I would've thought that would carry on to next year.

You didn't see Cutler, Leinart, or Young pulled because of poor play.... and I doubt you will at least until the middle of the '07 season(if they are playing really, really bad).

I understand David is not a rookie.... but knowing what we knew going in...... what Kubiak should have seen..... & what Bob McNair has put David through the past 4 years, he should've been "developed" the same way. ON the bench. as the #2 guy. Taking the majority of preseason snaps with the second team. Not because he isn't good enough to start, but to get him more snaps(before they start counting) & to help him experience success against the 2s & 3s of other teams.

He should've studied the games with Kubiak, from the sideline....... then come in week 8 or so..... IF we were getting Blown out, and were 1-4 to start the season......... bring him in early.

But overall, I think he's been to quick to act on David, Wali, Vernand, Wand, Robaire.....

But too slow on Jameel Cook, Flanagan, McKinney(at guard), Buchannon, Brown........

thunderkyss
02-12-2007, 09:43 PM
I like what you have said and I think we need to give Kubiak at least a passing grade for this year. Remember he is playing with somebody else's choices as far as players go.

Bill Parcells took Jerah Jones' team, with Jerah's picks to 10-6 with a play-off apearance.

Mangini did as well.

Honoring Earl 34
02-12-2007, 09:55 PM
I think the Texans and Kubiak had some growing pains for sure .

I think that the lack of discipline and excecution baffled Kubiak early ( fumbles , penalties , and so on ) . The team would get stressed and revert to bad habits . This after a decent pre-season .

The Texans started to compete about midway through the season and left some wins on the field . They played hard even with a lot of patches .

It's the Rick and Gary show now and with the FA signing period , the draft , maybe a trade ... if these guys are the real deal maybe we can right the ship and brighter days are ahead .

thunderkyss
02-12-2007, 10:15 PM
That's always been my take also, but to a point.
I never seem to tire of second guessing that Draft and that pick, because
I don't think we know the full and complete story and I think it was the single
most important Draft pick the Texans ever had.
What I'm still puzzled about to this day is why didn't the Texans trade the pick ? And I don't for a moment buy the story that they couldn't successfully negotiate a trade.
I can't believe that after having months and months to prepare for the Draft, knowing all that time that they had the #1, why there wasn't a fall back position in the event they cooled on Bush ?
The only explanation I can come up with was that they were so sold on Bush
that it never occured to them, for any reason, that they wouldn't take him ?
And that just does not seem plausible ?

First of all....... I'm over the VY thing...... I really am.

Second...... if he wasn't seriously considered, I think that says a lot about our F.O. (& it ain't good).

Third......... We couldn't trade down, because we had limits..... We had to get something out of this draft... the talent experts (on this board) said we had to get Reggie, Mario, DBrick, Vernon Davis or AJ out of this draft. I'd imagine the real experts saw it similarly.

If they had their eye on Demeco, Spencer, & Owen(we already had Putz), That left Reggie & Mario. How far down could we trade, to get one of those two??

If we trade down with the Jets, they take Reggie, N.O. takes Mario..... we have to re-think everything.

Maybe N.O. would've taken Hawk..... they seem to be as desperate for LBs as we were for RBs........ But I doubt it. ON that Defensive line, Mario would have been a monster.

Now if the object was to trade down, out of the top 10..... I'm sure that would have been possible, but trying to stay in the top 5 limited our possibilities from the get go.

thunderkyss
02-12-2007, 10:28 PM
I believe that Kubiak did what most teams would do under the circumstances.

I think that most of the talent evaluators in the league would have kept Carr and not drafted QB in 2006 based on what was seen in 2004 and accounting for the talent level around him.

Except that we kept most of that talent on the OL....... How can you say when you consider the Talent around him........ but then keep most of it??

thunderkyss
02-12-2007, 10:39 PM
Kubiak was the front runner because:

a. he was qualified and

b. he wouldn't see the Texans job as just a stepping stone coaching job to his real dream job. There ain't too many coaches in the league that would see the Texans job as his dream job other than just a dream paycheck.

I bet Mike Martz would've loved it, and I bet David would have done better.

just a hunch, but I think Coach Dent has a point, and Carr needs more of a Spread offense.


Not that I want Martz as our coach(I'd rather the Denver offense)......... just say'n.

Honoring Earl 34
02-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Martz's offense is to QBs what Denver's offense is to RB's .

Green
Warner
Bulger
Kitna

QB75
02-12-2007, 11:19 PM
First let me say, I think Kubes is the right guy for job & I am ecstatic about our most recent draft. That being said, he had film of all David Carr's games and input from several NFL types. Did he

1. Simply misjudge Carr?
2. Say what he thought he had to for the job.
3. Truly think he could improve DC enough to get by and is now admitting he was wrong. If so, is that on him or David or both.

Was the success of the draft more Casserly than some want to admit?
Was Mario over B/Y simply taking the easy way out for a coach not wanting to gamble on a RB or QB that could have failed just as easily?
Have the free agents Kubes picked really worked out?

Some if not all of these have been discussed, but now more time has elapsed and F/agency and another important draft loom. I say we are going to be just fine. What do you say?

The answer may be "none of the above". It may be that he thought that he could improve Carr and the organization still wants to give him one more year.

Here is what people are missing: Gary Kubiak inherited David Carr, and believed that he had the potential to succeed in his offense. The ramifications of any trade (both player results and financials) are going to be his responsibility if he moves David out. Therefore, in order to move David he has to believe that there is a very high odds success story out there that will be worth the cost and risk. To trade David and sign a free agent is going to entail risk and cost money that could be spent on other free agents for badly needed positions.

So, ask yourself - who is this "slam dunk" QB acquisition that is going to be worth the cost of forgoing other high odds players? The answer is that there isn't one in a trade. Some people point to Plummer, and maybe they will go that way anyway, but if Gary brings Plummer here and he doesn't perform, the responsibility is completely on Gary because no one knows Plummer better than him. He would have to be absolutely confident in Plummer to make such a move. If he's not, the low risk path is to keep David another year and build up the rest of the team.

The Texans got a lot better at many positions in 2006 by signing draft picks and free agents that they believed had very high odds of success in the NFL at their positions. They are going to pursue the same path in 2007. If the 2 highly rated running backs are gone by the 8th pick they could take Brady Quinn. If they get a back with the 8th pick and Kevin Kolb falls to them in the 2nd round they may take Kevin. But I think that the trade for Plummer is more unlikely than people perceive. The Texans believe that they can go with Carr for one more year as long as the talent level of the rest of the team improves. Then, if Carr doesn't produce in 2007, they realize that they have given him every chance and move on, either moving up Quinn or Kolb, or finding someone else.

The Texans are aiming for the playoffs as soon as possible, but are not desperate to go next year. They have a young team. In order to get to the playoffs many positions have to be improved over the next couple of years. But it isn't mandatory to change the QB in 2007 to make progress toward the end goal.

With limited money, they are going to seek the best players for the long term, and I think that we will see that this doesn't include an older free agent QB - at least not in 2007.

painekiller
02-13-2007, 02:35 AM
But the way he kept changing running backs from week to week, made him look desperate...... which he may have been, but games like Dallas.... it didn't matter who was in the backfield. They played a damn good game.




If you play fantasy football, pretty much since the Broncos traded Portis the a good rule to follow was to not draft a Denver RB. Why? Because a guys get 150 yds one week only to inactive the next game. They have been using musical RBs for a few years before Kubiak left. So him doing that here should not have been a big surprise. Also almost every HC in the league will bench a player for fumbling, Capers did it to Hollins and Davis now Williams. They work on it from day one of off season practice, they do not tolerate it.

mefool3030
02-13-2007, 04:59 AM
Kubiak deserves an F- for making Carr a terrible QB, and making the Texans get rid of Casserly. Also ruining the whole running game.

thunderkyss
02-13-2007, 08:03 AM
Also almost every HC in the league will bench a player for fumbling, Capers did it to Hollins and Davis now Williams. They work on it from day one of off season practice, they do not tolerate it.

Wali fumbled once........ & was gone, out of the game for the next 4 weeks.

David fumbled 3 times per game for that game, and the next two, then after two games with no fumbles, he's pulled for one half in Tennessee, then reassured of his starter role as soon as the game was over.

Jameel was allowed to fumble in back to back games before he was yanked.

I understand no tollerance....... & if he were somebody who was prone to fumbling, somebody he's talked to before(that we know of) like Chris Taylor..... then yeah, I understand.

But Wali was looking pretty good in that game, his second start in the NFL. His second week in the NFL.

The two previous drives were stalled because of QB fumbles.... then Wali & Dayne came in, and led a 40 yard drive to the Indy 23 yard line...... & fumble. No more Wali.

But Indy takes the ball to the goal line, Addai is stripped of the ball on the goal line(it's a fumble) and goes on to being the only rookie to rush for 1000 yards in '06.....

**** happens. People make mistakes. But you've got to give them an opportunity to make up for them.... Especially if he is "your guy".... David screw up, he stays on the field. AJ screws up...... he stays on the field. Wali screwed up, he should have stayed on the field...... or at least come in the next series.

edit: I just checked....... Lundy was inactive for only two games...... that's not as bad as I had been saying.

Texans_Chick
02-13-2007, 09:27 AM
First off, in my opinion, you don't get to the Super Bowl by following what other the herd mentality is, which is primarily the media anyway. Besides, if the Texans are going to do what everybody else would do anyway, we don't need Kubiak.

I remember somewhere on the messageboard that you were at Super Bowl activities asking football people if they thought Carr was more of the problem than the solution for the Texans. Who is going to say Carr is the problem? It isn't going to be said publicly in so many words, it just isn't the way our society works in general. Anyway, that's like a like a guy asking another guy, who don't know each other, if his wife is ugly. What do you think the other guy is going to say?

You are right, I don't know if Kubiak made the Carr decision or it was a part of the deal when he accepted the job. I thought I made that clear when I discussed it in my previous post.

If Kubiak wanted to keep Carr and he based that on his evaulation of the tape, he needs to rethink how evaluates players because he really screwed it up! Yet, what doesn't make sense though is that he can't evaluate NFL game film of Carr as it relates to his system, but he can evaluate college game film to draft what appears to be a pretty good draft class of 2006. It just doesn't wash when you look at it that way.

I won't even get into the Carr excuses you laid out except to say some guys have been more successful with less...


I did not go around the SB asking people what they thought of Carr. Bleh. That was an erroneous report in Jerome Solomon's blog--the man was tired.

If you are a Texans fan, and you are at the Super Bowl, people will spontaneously bring up two subjects: Carr and the VY/Bush/Williams thing.

I had two former players talk to me about Carr: 1. One said he did pretty good given the circumstances and that no player could have succeeded in our situation and that the Texans need a running back and a line, and that the game is won at the lines; 2. The other player said that Carr = Kyle Boller, a QB that the teammates do not believe in and feel that they have to win in spite of.

As for the evaluation of game film, you are missing the point I've been making. Game film can only tell you so much. It can tell you the physical mechanical abilities to do something. Physically, Carr can run Kubiak's offense.

Game film can't tell you what's in a guy's head. How he responds to your coaching. Whether he is making the decisions you want him to make.

We get your point. You believe that the Texans should have kicked Carr to the curb before the option needed to be exercised in early February. And then they should have committed to drafting Vince Young at that time, and rejected all other draft options. A time where his inexperienced agent was getting him to do stuff that made VY look like a worse prospect than he was, and Vince's choices looked like he was more interested in doing his own thing than finding representation that would make him look like a professional NFL quarterback.

You do not have to convince me that VY was an excellent prospect, but at the same time, I am not going to concede that dumping Carr and basically committing to Vince in February in lieu of other draft choices was a terribly sensable thing for the Texans to be doing. I wanted the Texans to commit to VY, but I knew it would be a huge leap of faith.

(Even now, I sometimes wonder that no matter what the Texans did with the first pick, it would have been the proclaimed "wrong choice." I could completely see an alternative history of VY or Bush really struggling with the 2006 Texans team. We will never know).

Under your theory of unconventional = Super Bowl, then I guess the Texans will be going there thusly because there ain't a more unconventional choice than picking Williams at #1.

Honoring Earl 34
02-13-2007, 10:20 AM
I think that you can say this team has been mismanaged from day one . Notice the lack of 2nd and 3rd round picks on this team .

The one thing that I can hope for is that we have some competent guys in place to right the ship .

I'm not worried about VY, Carr , or any player nearly as much as I'm scared that we'll turn into the AFC Cardinals .

Meloy
02-13-2007, 11:28 AM
I think we now have the management in place to turn this ship around. Just home the name on the stern does not say Titanic. We can continue to gripe about what has happened but realistically should focus on what has happened since Kubes took over. We now have Smith and the salary cap guru (can not remember his name) & both will play strong roles this year & into the future. I also like Bush as a defensive coach. Coach cleared deadwood last year & should do some more trimming this season. I can't help but be optimistic.

TwinSisters
02-13-2007, 09:09 PM
Bill Parcells took Jerah Jones' team, with Jerah's picks to 10-6 with a play-off apearance.

Mangini did as well.

hmmm, Parcells gutted that team and replaced most of Jones's picks with FAs. I think only the starters for the Cowboys from the draft pool was less then 10 for both offense and defense.

Mangini had Schottenheimer's son! Maybe Kubiak needs to promote Shanahan to OC. He struck the draft with Mangold and Ferguson, along some pretty good FA pick ups.

thunderkyss
02-13-2007, 09:26 PM
hmmm, Parcells gutted that team and replaced most of Jones's picks with FAs. I think only the starters for the Cowboys from the draft pool was less then 10 for both offense and defense.


I was talking about Bill's first year as head coach. I think the Cowboys were 5-11 the year before(I think) then 2002 they went to the play-offs. With the same team. Basically the same team.

Erratic Assassin
02-13-2007, 10:06 PM
Kubiak convinced our owner and GM that he could fix David Carr. He didn't. We passed on VY based on Kubiak's overconfident assessment.

Kubiak/ Sherman were supposed to fix our zone blocking scheme. They didn't.

Kubiak practiced "addition by subtraction" which always translates into "subtraction by subtraction". I won't defend Charley Casserly, but cutting his players just for the sake of cutting them when you have no better options doesn't make the team any better.

On the plus side, we had the best draft we've had in franchise history. I don't know how much Kubiak had to do with that, but I'm sure he had some influence and therefore deserves some credit.

It's too early to evaluate, but so far, not so good. Didn't Dom Capers go 7-9 one year?

TwinSisters
02-13-2007, 10:07 PM
I was talking about Bill's first year as head coach. I think the Cowboys were 5-11 the year before(I think) then 2002 they went to the play-offs. With the same team. Basically the same team.

Ah, okay. I see what you mean now.

nunusguy
02-14-2007, 09:46 AM
Kubiak convinced our owner and GM that he could fix David Carr. He didn't. We passed on VY based on Kubiak's overconfident assessment.
Kubiak/ Sherman were supposed to fix our zone blocking scheme. They didn't.
Kubiak practiced "addition by subtraction" which always translates into "subtraction by subtraction". I won't defend Charley Casserly, but cutting his players just for the sake of cutting them when you have no better options doesn't make the team any better.
On the plus side, we had the best draft we've had in franchise history. I don't know how much Kubiak had to do with that, but I'm sure he had some influence and therefore deserves some credit.
It's too early to evaluate, but so far, not so good. Didn't Dom Capers go 7-9 one year?
IMO, all valid observations.
I'll always be a Texans fan, but unlike a couple years ago, I no longer take
the organizations decisions, including hiring a new HC, at face value.
And as EA says in his summary above, its a mixed review at best to this point

Buckle
02-14-2007, 11:57 AM
yes Capers did go 7-9 one year and then the very next year we went 2-14 and thus why he was released. The problem with Capers from the beginning was he ran this franchise like it had been around for years and not a expansion team, giving away draft choices for 1 player instead of acquiring more draft choices is a no-no especially when you are a newer team trying to build from the foundation up! Capers tried to put the roof on the house with out laying the foundation or building the walls, which is what Kubiak now has to go back and do which is one of the stumbling blocks he ran into last season. I believe in what Kubiak and Rick Smith will do with this team and I feel the way they approach the draft and FA is the way that this team should have been run from the get go.

SamuraiSword
02-18-2007, 02:54 PM
It took me awhile to think of this, but I think kubiak will be a good HC. The only downside I see of him is getting any player that comes out of Denver because they know the system.

Texian
02-18-2007, 03:31 PM
It took me awhile to think of this, but I think kubiak will be a good HC. The only downside I see of him is getting any player that comes out of Denver because they know the system.

You know I thought he was going to be a really good coach. I called him the 2nd coming of Tom Landry (a soft spoken texan). The only thing he has proven to me so far is his ability to make some pretty bad decisions. I think he is turning out to be one of those really good coordinators who turns into a bad head coach.

Navy_Chris
02-18-2007, 03:47 PM
Despite several key injuries (Spencer, never having Domick, Daniels, Matihis for only a few returns, etc.) the guys seemed to be getting some chemistry going at the end of the year. And they beat Indy... nuff said on that. Considering what Kubiak inherited in his rookie year, I would have to give him a solid B.

Fix Carr's head next year (assuming Carr is still around) and that goes to an A.

I like Kubiak as our head coach, I really do, but this latest talk of Plummer and Bell coming here by way of a trade that involves us giving them our #8 just tells me that Mike Shanahan and his boys in Denver are trying to pull one over on Rick and Gary. Please don't let it work.

phan1
02-18-2007, 03:56 PM
I am just NOT happy about being the Houston Broncos. We are totally giving up all control to Kubiak and his staff, just like we handed up all control to Casserly. That doesn't make me too happy. While I support Kubiak, I'm also not completely sold on him. And for Mcnair to just say, "hey this is your team, and your hand-picked GM and staff" is a bit ridiculous. We're treating him like he's Vince Lombardi here.

He just better get this team together cause it's all on him now. He already mis-judged Carr, what else is he going to get wrong?

awtysst
02-18-2007, 03:59 PM
I like Kubiak as our head coach, I really do, but this latest talk of Plummer and Bell coming here by way of a trade that involves us giving them our #8 just tells me that Mike Shanahan and his boys in Denver are trying to pull one over on Rick and Gary. Please don't let it work.

Where did you hear this?

Navy_Chris
02-18-2007, 04:03 PM
Where did you hear this?

http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_5251758

There's a thread here called Plummer and Tatum Bell in Houston, also.

Texian
02-18-2007, 04:20 PM
With a release of Carr many people are getting more angry because of the passing on Young. The Irony of the situation is Young would have found it very difficult to be successful in Houston. Not just because of an inferior Oline but also having to play in a WCO. Young's success in Tennessee came about when Fisher and Chow tailored the offense to Young's strengths. Young's strengths are not in the WCO. Kubiak knows the WCO and shows no compromise. If Kubiak had shown more patience and put Carr back in the shotgun where he is comfortable and spread the offense some they may have been more successful.

A good example of this is Michael Vick. Vick was more successful operating a more vertical game under Reeves. When Mora and Knapp came in and forced him into a WCO, his QB skills started to diminish. It will be interesting to see how Vick performs under Petrino who likes to spread things out a little more.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 04:45 PM
Kubiak and his staff will do a great job with this franchise, even if they don't make the most popular, fan friendly decisions. Trust me, they don't care what people outside the team think because they believe in themselves, no matter what some of you FAKE Texan fans feel. Stop complaining about the team and start supporting them.

trutxn
02-18-2007, 04:54 PM
The Irony of the situation is Young would have found it very difficult to be successful in Houston.


He has been successful on every team he has played on, Vince will succeed no matter who he plays for. Their o-line was not that good, WR was thin, but the backs were good. He has a passion for the game that many players loose once they get to this level. He will be a league great, we will not be able to match his skills offensively no matter who we have playing QB for us. But he plays for the enemy and we need to realize that. The best thing we can do is build a defense that can stop him.

The Pencil Neck
02-18-2007, 06:18 PM
I am just NOT happy about being the Houston Broncos. We are totally giving up all control to Kubiak and his staff, just like we handed up all control to Casserly. That doesn't make me too happy. While I support Kubiak, I'm also not completely sold on him. And for Mcnair to just say, "hey this is your team, and your hand-picked GM and staff" is a bit ridiculous. We're treating him like he's Vince Lombardi here.

He just better get this team together cause it's all on him now. He already mis-judged Carr, what else is he going to get wrong?

I don't understand what you're talking about. The whole idea is you hire a staff that you like and trust and then you let them do their job.

As far as I'm concerned, he has made some mistakes but he's also done some great things. I think we're on the right track and I have no problem with the job he's done so far. I trust them to do the right thing... even if it's not the thing(s) I expect or want.

QB75
02-18-2007, 06:31 PM
He has been successful on every team he has played on, Vince will succeed no matter who he plays for. Their o-line was not that good, WR was thin, but the backs were good. He has a passion for the game that many players loose once they get to this level. He will be a league great, we will not be able to match his skills offensively no matter who we have playing QB for us. But he plays for the enemy and we need to realize that. The best thing we can do is build a defense that can stop him.

Texans will be fine. Titans just another opponent.:bubble:

thunderkyss
02-18-2007, 08:41 PM
He just better get this team together cause it's all on him now. He already mis-judged Carr, what else is he going to get wrong?

If it makes you feel better, a lot of people have mis-judged Carr, and it sounds like a lot of people will mis-judge Carr in this up coming offseason.

Arky
02-18-2007, 09:57 PM
http://sportsblog.abc13.com/2007/02/texans_gm_rick_.html

Video here. Bob Allen gets Rick Smith to speak about Carr....

steelbtexan
02-18-2007, 11:33 PM
Kubiak did a good job although he made some rookie mistakes. we won 4 games more than the previous year & had agreat draft. 2 yrs. from now we will be in the playoffs. WE finally have people who know how to evaluate talent, not someone who spends all of his time kissing the nfl hierarchy's behind

thunderkyss
02-19-2007, 08:13 AM
http://sportsblog.abc13.com/2007/02/texans_gm_rick_.html

Video here. Bob Allen gets Rick Smith to speak about Carr....

yep....... just like I thought, David will be back.

Texian
02-19-2007, 11:17 AM
yep....... just like I thought, David will be back.

That is what it sounds like to me.

SamuraiSword
02-19-2007, 11:26 AM
yep....... just like I thought, David will be back.

Bah another losing season of Carr. If he can't bring a winning season next year then he needs to be shipped out or released period.

edo783
02-19-2007, 11:28 AM
yep....... just like I thought, David will be back.

I think it is supposed to sound that way to help make the market. Hard to sell something high if folks expect ya to toss it out with the garbage.

Texan_Bill
02-19-2007, 11:43 AM
http://sportsblog.abc13.com/2007/02/texans_gm_rick_.html

Video here. Bob Allen gets Rick Smith to speak about Carr....

Rick Smith certainly has a future in politics should he decide to go that route.
***Very non-committal***

Honoring Earl 34
02-19-2007, 11:46 AM
I think it is supposed to sound that way to help make the market. Hard to sell something high if folks expect ya to toss it out with the garbage.

That is an example of ear of the beholder .

edo783
02-19-2007, 01:21 PM
That is an example of ear of the beholder .

I think that is supposed to be "eye". LOL Hard to see with an "Ear".

Meloy
02-19-2007, 01:31 PM
Could someone summarize the interview? I could not get it to play. Thanks.

The Pencil Neck
02-19-2007, 03:20 PM
yep....... just like I thought, David will be back.

Dude.

Why are you listening to anything anyone is saying at this point in the year? This is the time of the season for obfuscation and subterfuge.

QB75
02-19-2007, 08:47 PM
Bah another losing season of Carr. If he can't bring a winning season next year then he needs to be shipped out or released period.

I just hope he gets that shot at another season. :bubble:

Honoring Earl 34
02-19-2007, 08:53 PM
I think that is supposed to be "eye". LOL Hard to see with an "Ear".

Not if you're listening to the conversation .