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View Full Version : Irvins acceptance to HOF is an outrage


whiskeyrbl
02-03-2007, 06:27 PM
I'm sure I'll hear it about this. But how in the world can you have a player in the HOF that was charged and admitted to using an illegal drug (marijuana) and being in a place where a supposed rape or sexual misconduct took place with a teammate. Yet Pete Rose is banned from the HOF for gambling? At least gambling is legal in some places in the US. Hey they both admitted wrong doing. But I guess the race card can't be used because it's reversed this time.

old football fan
02-03-2007, 06:36 PM
2 different sports and 2 different sets of rules. NFL is only concerned about what took place on the field. Besides Rose is a total jerk of a person. I have met him several times and wouldn't wish him on my worse emeny.

Kaiser Toro
02-03-2007, 06:40 PM
Nothing compromises the integrity of the game more than gambling on your own team or against it.

whiskeyrbl
02-03-2007, 06:45 PM
2 different sports and 2 different sets of rules. NFL is only concerned about what took place on the field. Besides Rose is a total jerk of a person. I have met him several times and wouldn't wish him on my worse emeny.

Doesn't matter about the different sports. Both HOF's are supposed to be for the best players in the history of the sport!!!!! Regardless if you are a jackass or not. Rose definitely put up the numbers and has some records that will never come close to being broke. The message I see being sent is it's ok to smoke pot and commit a rape or be where a rape takes place, but don't bet money on your team to win. Thats a good message to our youth don't ya think.

old football fan
02-03-2007, 06:53 PM
But Rose has been BANNED from baseball for his legal gambling. Betting on his own team where he had some control over the outcome.

The Dream
02-03-2007, 06:56 PM
different sports, different incidents....

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 07:00 PM
Doesn't matter about the different sports. Both HOF's are supposed to be for the best players in the history of the sport!!!!! Regardless if you are a jackass or not. Rose definitely put up the numbers and has some records that will never come close to being broke. The message I see being sent is it's ok to smoke pot and commit a rape or be where a rape takes place, but don't bet money on your team to win. Thats a good message to our youth don't ya think.

So anyone who has made mistakes and then has changed themselves should not be in? As some other veterans have said, it isn't the Life Hall of Fame, it is the Football Hall of Fame. Stats are all that matters. So are you saying Lawrence Taylor and a host of others who did drugs, had problems, etc should not get in either?This sounds more like dislike for the player than the standards. Football and Baseballs Halls are different.

mexican_texan
02-03-2007, 07:05 PM
I don't know how Irvin made it, but Derrick Thomas hasn't.

thunderkyss
02-03-2007, 07:05 PM
Doesn't matter about the different sports. Both HOF's are supposed to be for the best players in the history of the sport!!!!! Regardless if you are a jackass or not. Rose definitely put up the numbers and has some records that will never come close to being broke. The message I see being sent is it's ok to smoke pot and commit a rape or be where a rape takes place, but don't bet money on your team to win. Thats a good message to our youth don't ya think.

If there was even a hint that Michael Irvin threw a game to win a bet, or settle a wager, you can rest assured, that he wouldn't be in the Hall of Fame.

& that is basically why Pete Rose was banned from Baseball...... & denied the HOF.

Think about it.. what Pete Rose did challenges the integrity of the game, and you want to celevrate him??

Michael Irvin....... & folks like him challenges the way teams select their players. But you can't deny he did all he could to give you & me an entertaining show.

StarStruck
02-03-2007, 07:10 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the rape charges false, and because of the accusation both Irvin and Williams sued and won?

I don't agree to a person using illegal drugs, but even if I didn't like Irvin, there is a big difference between being accused of illegal drugs for personal use and gambling for or against the team that you are managing. The latter can compromise the integrity of the whole game in addition to a manager being in the position to profit perosnally from such bets.

OBTW, congratulations to Irvin, Thurman, Matthews and the others who were inducted.

GP
02-03-2007, 07:13 PM
Nobody is saying he is a role model.

I would think if you polled people, you'd find that they do not consider Irvin to be someone to pattern their life after.

BUT...he played the WR position brilliantly, IMO. Great size, great speed, and awesome instinct.

He deserves to be in the HOF. Stats, championships, etc., prove he was a HOF PLAYER. I don't condone his personal lifestyle, and I cannot stand his commentary on ESPN...but he was a great player nonetheless.

We should trust that people know Irvin was a great player, yet perhaps NOT the person you want your kids to idiolize.

thunderkyss
02-03-2007, 07:45 PM
Wow......... Irvin has been married for 20 years...

20 years.....

Trap_Star
02-03-2007, 07:47 PM
The important thing is that his "friend" is happy he made it in...

Tulip
02-03-2007, 08:15 PM
I prefer the NFL's approach to the MLB's approach.

Dr. Toro
02-03-2007, 08:23 PM
I don't know how Irvin gets in before Monk does. Irvin's got higher per-season totals, but lesser career stats. Monk won plenty of rings too and set a lot of records in his time. Art Monk should be the maddest dude in the world right now. It's not that Irvin isn't deserving, he is... it's that he was a wreck and pretty disrespectful during his time in the league and hasn't been above reproach in retirement. I guess Irvin has the distinction of playing his entire career for Dallas, while Monk bounced around.

Pete Rose shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. He's done nothing since he was banned to change perception either. Such a shame, the dude just played on a psychotically intense level...

Mr. White
02-03-2007, 08:30 PM
If there's a spot for Lawrence Taylor in Canton, then there should be one for Michael Irvin.

Like it or not, he's one of the best wide receivers ever to play the game. On one of the best teams that's ever been in the game.

He's gone a long way towards cleaning up his act the past few years as well. Well deserved.

Sportsfan
02-03-2007, 08:36 PM
You can't compare apples to oranges bud, sorry.

Mr. White
02-03-2007, 08:55 PM
You can't compare apples to oranges bud, sorry.

But you can compare 2 football players that have had similar problems off the field.

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 09:02 PM
I don't know how Irvin gets in before Monk does. Irvin's got higher per-season totals, but lesser career stats. Monk won plenty of rings too and set a lot of records in his time. Art Monk should be the maddest dude in the world right now. It's not that Irvin isn't deserving, he is... it's that he was a wreck and pretty disrespectful during his time in the league and hasn't been above reproach in retirement. I guess Irvin has the distinction of playing his entire career for Dallas, while Monk bounced around.

Pete Rose shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame. He's done nothing since he was banned to change perception either. Such a shame, the dude just played on a psychotically intense level...

I go with McClain on this one. Monk wasn't even the best player on his team during the good years. Sanders had better stats than him in almost every year they were teammates..so he wasn't even the go to guy on his own team.

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 09:04 PM
If there's a spot for Lawrence Taylor in Canton, then there should be one for Michael Irvin.

Like it or not, he's one of the best wide receivers ever to play the game. On one of the best teams that's ever been in the game.

He's gone a long way towards cleaning up his act the past few years as well. Well deserved.

Exactly and we aren't going into the dozens of guys in that probably dabbled in drugs during the heavy steroid days, etc. Again, football players all have their own personality and style and I'm sure the Hall has every type. As I said above and you reiteratted, you can't put in a Taylor and then say you should keep Irvin out.

Texasian
02-03-2007, 09:17 PM
I'm sure I'll hear it about this. But how in the world can you have a player in the HOF that was charged and admitted to using an illegal drug (marijuana) and being in a place where a supposed rape or sexual misconduct took place with a teammate. Yet Pete Rose is banned from the HOF for gambling? At least gambling is legal in some places in the US. Hey they both admitted wrong doing. But I guess the race card can't be used because it's reversed this time.

Are you serious? You just talked about his 'off the field' incidents and not once mentioned his accomplishments with the 'Boys. Take off the Texans' Blindfold! Football HOF is about what you did ON THE FIELD NOT OFF. Heck, they won't even take out OJ out (which was not PC). It is what it is, ON THE FIELD!
He's in! That's all!

tulexan
02-03-2007, 09:23 PM
The difference is that Irvin may have been a drug addict and involved in some questionable circumstances, but his actions never affected the integrity of the game or the outcome of the games he played in. Pete Rose gambling on his team did affect the integrity of the game and the outcome of the games he coached.

That is the key difference.

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 09:31 PM
I don't know how Irvin gets in before Monk does. Irvin's got higher per-season totals, but lesser career stats. Monk won plenty of rings too and set a lot of records in his time. Art Monk should be the maddest dude in the world right now. It's not that Irvin isn't deserving, he is... it's that he was a wreck and pretty disrespectful during his time in the league and hasn't been above reproach in retirement. I guess Irvin has the distinction of playing his entire career for Dallas, while Monk bounced around.



Irvin was one of the 3 most important players on a team that won 3 Super Bowls. Many felt that he was THE leader of that great Dallas team, moreso than either Aikman or Emmitt Smith.

Yes, he has been involved in a number of unsavory incidents off the field and is far from a role model as far as his personal character goes. But strictly as a football player, he is deserving of admission to the HOF, as was Lawrence Taylor despite all of his personal problems. (I'm not implying Irvin is as deserving as Taylor was; Taylor was clearly a greater player than Irvin.)

As to Art Monk, I wouldn't say he is undeserving of admission to the HOF, but he is much less deserving than Irvin. Monk wasn't known as a playmaker; he caught a lot of short passes and due to his longevity was able to amass some nice stats. However, he wasn't even the #1 WR on his team and should not be considered as worthy as Irvin for the HOF.

Monk is a better human being than Irvin is, but that's not a criterion for the HOF.

Texasian
02-03-2007, 09:36 PM
The difference is that Irvin may have been a drug addict and involved in some questionable circumstances, but his actions never affected the integrity of the game or the outcome of the games he played in. Pete Rose gambling on his team did affect the integrity of the game and the outcome of the games he coached.

That is the key difference.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!

mexican_texan
02-03-2007, 09:37 PM
I go with McClain on this one. Monk wasn't even the best player on his team during the good years. Sanders had better stats than him in almost every year they were teammates..so he wasn't even the go to guy on his own team.
We're in the same camp. Monk wasn't the most dangerous WR on the team, and when he was, it wasn't much of a falloff to the next guy.

Seriously, though, how is Derrick Thomas not in?

thunderkyss
02-03-2007, 09:41 PM
I don't know how Irvin gets in before Monk does. Irvin's got higher per-season totals, but lesser career stats. Monk won plenty of rings too and set a lot of records in his time. Art Monk should be the maddest dude in the world right now. It's not that Irvin isn't deserving, he is... it's that he was a wreck and pretty disrespectful during his time in the league and hasn't been above reproach in retirement. I guess Irvin has the distinction of playing his entire career for Dallas, while Monk bounced around.


I can go with that....... Monk should definitely have been in before Irvin.

Texasian
02-03-2007, 09:53 PM
thunderkyss,
Will you complain when Emmitt gets in the HOF?

Dr. Toro
02-03-2007, 10:09 PM
I go with McClain on this one. Monk wasn't even the best player on his team during the good years. Sanders had better stats than him in almost every year they were teammates..so he wasn't even the go to guy on his own team.

You could make the same argument about Craig Biggio too.... body of work matters. Good point though. He was just a favorite of mine growing up, feels like he deserves his due.

TwinSisters
02-03-2007, 10:56 PM
The real crime here is that Irvin made it in before Harvey Martin.

kbourda
02-03-2007, 11:00 PM
I'm sure I'll hear it about this. But how in the world can you have a player in the HOF that was charged and admitted to using an illegal drug (marijuana) and being in a place where a supposed rape or sexual misconduct took place with a teammate. Yet Pete Rose is banned from the HOF for gambling? At least gambling is legal in some places in the US. Hey they both admitted wrong doing. But I guess the race card can't be used because it's reversed this time.

Funny you mention Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame but you don't make a mention of a racist MURDERER in Tyrus Cobb being in the HOF. I'm sure you are in complete outrage behind that. Can I play the race card in this one? For the record, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. FOR THE PLAYERS ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE FIELD OF PLAY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WHEN CONSIDERING FOR ANY ENSHRINEMENT, PERIOD.

dirty steve
02-03-2007, 11:02 PM
If there's a spot for Lawrence Taylor in Canton, then there should be one for Michael Irvin.

Like it or not, he's one of the best wide receivers ever to play the game. On one of the best teams that's ever been in the game.

He's gone a long way towards cleaning up his act the past few years as well. Well deserved.
I guess the November 2005 arrest on drug paraphanelia possession cleans up your image?

dirty steve
02-03-2007, 11:03 PM
Funny you mention Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame but you don't make a mention of a racist MURDERER in Tyrus Cobb being in the HOF. I'm sure you are in complete outrage behind that. Can I play the race card in this one? For the record, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. FOR THE PLAYERS ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE FIELD OF PLAY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WHEN CONSIDERING FOR ANY ENSHRINEMENT, PERIOD.
Ty Cobb was a rumored POS, but do you need the race card to back it up?

Michael Irvin pulled the race card with his comments on Tony Romo. So you have to have some black in your bloodline to ball? Limbaugh said parallel comments and got hung out to dry. Why Irvin gets a free pass is beyond me.

kbourda
02-03-2007, 11:07 PM
Ty Cobb was a rumored POS, but do you need the race card to back it up?

For the record, it wasn't a rumor, it was well known. And no I don't need it in this case, I was just sayin!

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 11:10 PM
Here is what Sports Illustrated's Dr. Z (a voter for the NFL Hall of Fame) had to say about the deliberations concerning Irvin:

[snip]

SI.com: How heated was the debate on Michael Irvin?

Dr. Z: Very heated. I think some people just didn't like him. But for me, it was just too logical that he belonged in. He was the do-it-all receiver for a three-time champion. He could catch anything. He was a leader who helped get the team to work hard. He blocked. He was tough. And he never had any help at the other receiver position. Maybe his numbers weren't as big as some others, but the Cowboys had Emmitt Smith, so of course they weren't going to throw that much.

SI.com: Why didn't Art Monk get elected?

Dr. Z: My feeling is that Monk was a great player. But when you played the Redskins, he was not the guy you had to stop. He was a very functional player. A great team guy. But I liked two wideouts better this year. Irvin and Andre Reed.

Will the improvement of receivers' statistics in recent years hurt Monk's chances of making it in the future?

Oh yeah. I think his best chance might have been when he first came on the ballot, because he was still near the top of the all-time lists then, but he' falling.


[snip]

It's interesting, but not surprising, that some writers just don't like Irvin. But Dr. Z's arguments for Irvin's admission are compelling.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/football/nfl/specials/playoffs/2006/02/03/drz.qa/index.html

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 11:11 PM
Funny you mention Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame but you don't make a mention of a racist MURDERER in Tyrus Cobb being in the HOF. I'm sure you are in complete outrage behind that. Can I play the race card in this one? For the record, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. FOR THE PLAYERS ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE FIELD OF PLAY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WHEN CONSIDERING FOR ANY ENSHRINEMENT, PERIOD.

Who did Ty Cobb murder? I never heard that one. That he was a racist is well-known.

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 11:13 PM
I guess the November 2005 arrest on drug paraphanelia possession cleans up your image?

Dirty Steve:

This has nothing to do with this thread, but are you Steve McKinney? Just wondering...

:)

dirty steve
02-03-2007, 11:16 PM
For the record, it wasn't a rumor, it was well known. And no I don't need it in this case, I was just sayin!
then dont bring it up. if you dont need it, then dont use it.

irvin gets a free pass and is a total piece of crap, loudmouth, crack smoking, self employed model utilizing, racist, and most of all, what i hate the most about the dallas girls. he somehow can skate under the radar by being nothing more than a total lout with a sketchy ability in the English vocabulary. now girls fans can throw another HOF up there along with those rings they always throw up in your face. he is going to get more pub than bruce matthews who was more dominant at his position than irvin ever was and missed a whole five games out of 297 that he played.

dirty steve
02-03-2007, 11:17 PM
Dirty Steve:

This has nothing to do with this thread, but are you Steve McKinney? Just wondering...

:)
no, but he does come into my shop from time to time in Friendswood.

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 11:19 PM
You could make the same argument about Craig Biggio too.... body of work matters. Good point though. He was just a favorite of mine growing up, feels like he deserves his due.

I agree and I never meant to say that Monk didn't belong in the Hall. He was a steady, great receiver. I just wanted to make the point that Monk wasn't even the best receiver on his own team for a bit or the go to guy. Still a strong candidate though.

As for Biggio...it may not be popular to say but I'll take him as the long term stud over Bags all day. Both should be in but Biggio is my man...just a side note and a completely different argument.

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 11:25 PM
irvin gets a free pass and is a total piece of crap, loudmouth, crack smoking, self employed model utilizing, racist, and most of all, what i hate the most about the dallas girls. he somehow can skate under the radar by being nothing more than a total lout with a sketchy ability in the English vocabulary. now girls fans can throw another HOF up there along with those rings they always throw up in your face. he is going to get more pub than bruce matthews who was more dominant at his position than irvin ever was and missed a whole five games out of 297 that he played.

I agree Irvin will get more publicity because of all the controversy surrounding his election, but don't think the publicity will detract from Matthews getting his just due. BM was one of the all-time great offensive lineman who deservedly was elected his first time up. This was Irvin's third try.

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 11:33 PM
then dont bring it up. if you dont need it, then dont use it.

irvin gets a free pass and is a total piece of crap, loudmouth, crack smoking, self employed model utilizing, racist, and most of all, what i hate the most about the dallas girls. he somehow can skate under the radar by being nothing more than a total lout with a sketchy ability in the English vocabulary. now girls fans can throw another HOF up there along with those rings they always throw up in your face. he is going to get more pub than bruce matthews who was more dominant at his position than irvin ever was and missed a whole five games out of 297 that he played.

That is a little over the top and for all the rings the Cowboys have won they actually lack in guys who should be up for HOF consideration...I'm talking more the 70s teams and earlier. I can understand how Irvin isn't some people's favorite but he was a player that deserves it.

whiskeyrbl
02-03-2007, 11:34 PM
Funny you mention Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame but you don't make a mention of a racist MURDERER in Tyrus Cobb being in the HOF. I'm sure you are in complete outrage behind that. Can I play the race card in this one? For the record, I feel Rose should be in the HOF. FOR THE PLAYERS ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE FIELD OF PLAY SHOULD BE LOOKED AT WHEN CONSIDERING FOR ANY ENSHRINEMENT, PERIOD.

Sorry but did not know that about Cobb.

CowboysTexansFan
02-03-2007, 11:36 PM
That is a little over the top and for all the rings the Cowboys have won they actually lack in guys who should be up for HOF consideration...I'm talking more the 70s teams and earlier. I can understand how Irvin isn't some people's favorite but he was a player that deserves it.

Agreed. Cliff Harris and the late Bob Hayes are two guys that obviously deserve admission, in my opinion. Hayes had some character issues that undoubtedly hurt him, but why Harris is not in the Hall of Fame is completely beyond me. Even Dr. Z has said he believes there is an anti-Dallas Cowboy bias among HOF voters.

TexanSam
02-03-2007, 11:37 PM
Irvin was a better wide reciever than Art Monk. He deserves to get in (Irvin). As much as I dislike the guy as a person, you have to give him credit where credit is due. He was one of the three best players on those Cowboys teams.

kbourda
02-03-2007, 11:41 PM
then dont bring it up. if you dont need it, then dont use it.

irvin gets a free pass and is a total piece of crap, loudmouth, crack smoking, self employed model utilizing, racist, and most of all, what i hate the most about the dallas girls. he somehow can skate under the radar by being nothing more than a total lout with a sketchy ability in the English vocabulary. now girls fans can throw another HOF up there along with those rings they always throw up in your face. he is going to get more pub than bruce matthews who was more dominant at his position than irvin ever was and missed a whole five games out of 297 that he played.

Don't bring it up if I don't need it? Sorry , Massa! I's be good from now on.......

Wasn't aware I needed a coupon from you to express MY thoughts.

Ok, I hate the girls too but to attack the man's character is weak. He's earned this enshrinement in the field of play.

kbourda
02-03-2007, 11:44 PM
Sorry but did not know that about Cobb.

Hey knowledge is power. Cobb killed a Black man in what he know of today as a hate crime. Since it was "cool" to kill black folks back in the day it was like getting stopped for running a stop sign. In other words no big in his day.

HoustonFrog
02-03-2007, 11:48 PM
Agreed. Cliff Harris and the late Bob Hayes are two guys that obviously deserve admission, in my opinion. Hayes had some character issues that undoubtedly hurt him, but why Harris is not in the Hall of Fame is completely beyond me. Even Dr. Z has said he believes there is an anti-Dallas Cowboy bias among HOF voters.

Exactly. Harris was one of the ones I was thinking of and many other writers have admitted to the anti-Dallas bias while voting. Many on Dallas Doomsday Ds failed to get recognition.

CowboysTexansFan
02-04-2007, 12:05 AM
Hey knowledge is power. Cobb killed a Black man in what he know of today as a hate crime. Since it was "cool" to kill black folks back in the day it was like getting stopped for running a stop sign. In other words no big in his day.

Can you provide a link? Is that really true, or a rumor? I did some quick searching on Google, and couldn't find anything to confirm that. I also read a biography about Cobb years ago and there was no mention of his killing a black man in that book. There are numerous instances of his mistreating black people, but I haven't found any reference to him killing one.

dirty steve
02-04-2007, 12:52 AM
Don't bring it up if I don't need it? Sorry , Massa! I's be good from now on.......

Wasn't aware I needed a coupon from you to express MY thoughts.

Ok, I hate the girls too but to attack the man's character is weak. He's earned this enshrinement in the field of play.
i wasnt saying that man, and quit referring to me as someone who perpetuates a racial sterotype. dont throw that race card around as a threat, it's already done enough today. if you need to ask if you can do something like that, then it is a good sign you should have never brought it up.

BTW--if there is one thing that you should know about me is that i abhor racism and the nasty scar it has left on our great country. i grew up in a very tolerant household where hateful thoughts werent accepted. my dads family had a black maid in 1960's Louisiana and didnt see what the big deal was when kids called him the N word at school or N lover on the bus to school. i accost people around me when i hear that term used ans ask that they dont use it around me. i am white, but it affends me greatly. dont go around and color me with that paint when i had nothing to do with and do all i can to eridicate it.

Huge
02-04-2007, 11:25 AM
Irvin belongs in the Hall of Fame. If you're not sure of this, you either:

A. Don't know much about football.
B. Have a strong bias against Dallas.
C. Don't understand the difference between the Halls (baseball/football)
D. All of the above.

There's no reason to debate this. You either feel he deserves to be in or you're wrong.

HoustonFrog
02-04-2007, 11:53 AM
Back when I was a kid, Harris and Waters were like gods. They were merciless. And the Doomsday D.....I still have a poster of them. I think Irvin is a bit over rated and talks too damn much.

I loved Harris and Waters. Add Too Tall and Harvey Martin. The old Pittsburgh v. Dallas games were classic.

brewhaus
02-04-2007, 12:49 PM
Irvin belongs in the Hall of Fame. If you're not sure of this, you either:

A. Don't know much about football.
B. Have a strong bias against Dallas.
C. Don't understand the difference between the Halls (baseball/football)
D. All of the above.

There's no reason to debate this. You either feel he deserves to be in or you're wrong.

I think Irvin deserves it. But, I also think Pete Rose deserves to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Both athletes had questionable lifestyles. Both athletes were unsurpassed in their ability to play their sport. :twocents:

Texas_Thrill
02-04-2007, 01:15 PM
man this board is getting very racial across alot of lines lately.

I'm of the opinion Monk is going to suffer b/c he was never the DOMINANT.

Irvin was dominant even against double coverage at times.

This just comes down to whether you like the man off the field.

I mean seriously how many players in all sports were not character guys.

I don't like Ty Cobb either but I'd never not vote him in b/c of his ignorance. I wouldn't not vote OJ in b/c of questionable actions.

FOCUS ON THE FIELD.

nunusguy
02-04-2007, 01:18 PM
I think Irvin deserves it. But, I also think Pete Rose deserves to be in the Baseball Hall of Fame. Both athletes had questionable lifestyles. Both athletes were unsurpassed in their ability to play their sport. :twocents:
Don't the baseball guys have different rules, standards than membership in the football HOF has ?

axman40
02-04-2007, 01:22 PM
Can you provide a link? Is that really true, or a rumor? I did some quick searching on Google, and couldn't find anything to confirm that. I also read a biography about Cobb years ago and there was no mention of his killing a black man in that book. There are numerous instances of his mistreating black people, but I haven't found any reference to him killing one.

TY COBB
Crimes: Assault (too many to count), murder
It’s impossible to list all Ty’s acts of violence. But here are a few. 1907: Slapped a black groundskeeper; when the man’s wife protested, he grabbed her by the neck. 1908: Assaulted a black laborer; shoved a black chambermaid down the stairs. 1909: Slapped a black elevator operator for being “insolent.” When a night watchman (also black) broke it up, Cobb slashed him several times with a knife. Fined $100. 1912: Pistol-whipped a would-be mugger to death; pummeled a crippled fan. 1914: Threatened a butcher with a gun and pistol-whipped his black assistant.

http://www.maximonline.com/articles/index.aspx?a_id=4459
A would be mugger does not give race of said mugger.

:ok:

CowboysTexansFan
02-04-2007, 02:02 PM
TY COBB
Crimes: Assault (too many to count), murder
It’s impossible to list all Ty’s acts of violence. But here are a few. 1907: Slapped a black groundskeeper; when the man’s wife protested, he grabbed her by the neck. 1908: Assaulted a black laborer; shoved a black chambermaid down the stairs. 1909: Slapped a black elevator operator for being “insolent.” When a night watchman (also black) broke it up, Cobb slashed him several times with a knife. Fined $100. 1912: Pistol-whipped a would-be mugger to death; pummeled a crippled fan. 1914: Threatened a butcher with a gun and pistol-whipped his black assistant.

http://www.maximonline.com/articles/index.aspx?a_id=4459
A would be mugger does not give race of said mugger.

:ok:

I knew about all those incidents, but none of them support kbourda's statement that Cobb killed a black man in a hate crime. The incident with the mugger involved Cobb being attacked by three men while Cobb was with his wife. It's not clear that he even killed the mugger.

brewhaus
02-04-2007, 08:28 PM
Don't the baseball guys have different rules, standards than membership in the football HOF has ?

It seems that is the case. Most baseball fans consider personal character a decisive factor in HOF induction.

Kaiser Toro
02-04-2007, 10:57 PM
It seems that is the case. Most baseball fans consider personal character a decisive factor in HOF induction.

Depends on what your definition of personal character is. But one thing is for sure in all sports, you bet on the game, while involved, and you will not be going to the HOF. Irvin did not, Rose did.

HOU-TEX
02-05-2007, 12:35 PM
yeah, Irving is a no brainer HOF talent...it's just obvious he was an elite wr....and better than guys like Steve Largent to boot.

I agree! Irvin should've been a first ballot HOFer. I've never been fond of the guy, but he was a heck of a ball player. It just goes to show that off the field antics DO effect the outcome of the voters.:stirpot:

brewhaus
02-05-2007, 12:40 PM
Depends on what your definition of personal character is. But one thing is for sure in all sports, you bet on the game, while involved, and you will not be going to the HOF. Irvin did not, Rose did.

That's a fact.

StarStruck
02-05-2007, 04:46 PM
It seems that is the case. Most baseball fans consider personal character a decisive factor in HOF induction.

I guess if HOF inductions were done the same way in football, then we could look for Kurt Warner to make it in.

Huge
02-05-2007, 04:50 PM
Depends on what your definition of personal character is. But one thing is for sure in all sports, you bet on the game, while involved, and you will not be going to the HOF. Irvin did not, Rose did.

That's a fact.
Paul Hornung (along with Alex Karras) admitted to betting on football games. He's in the Hall of Fame.

Double Barrel
02-05-2007, 05:02 PM
I am far from a Irvin fan or a Dallas lover (always root against them...except when they play the Titans now), but Irvin into the HoF is a no-brainer to me. It's not even a question in my book. Dude was a great WR and a pivotal part of the Cowboys' three Super Bowl championships in the '90's.

I don't know how Irvin made it, but Derrick Thomas hasn't.

I'm surprised DT is not in, too.

BUT...he played the WR position brilliantly, IMO. Great size, great speed, and awesome instinct.

He deserves to be in the HOF. Stats, championships, etc., prove he was a HOF PLAYER. I don't condone his personal lifestyle, and I cannot stand his commentary on ESPN...but he was a great player nonetheless.

We should trust that people know Irvin was a great player, yet perhaps NOT the person you want your kids to idiolize.

BINGO!

I prefer the NFL's approach to the MLB's approach.

I do, too. It should be about the game, because none of these players are perfect. A lot of them just don't get caught.

Kaiser Toro
02-05-2007, 06:54 PM
Paul Hornung (along with Alex Karras) admitted to betting on football games. He's in the Hall of Fame.

Unfortunatley it takes a precedent to implement common sense. Thankfully a baseline was in place when Rose's situation came up.

infantrycak
02-05-2007, 08:46 PM
but Irvin into the HoF is a no-brainer to me.

That pretty much says it. How there can be multiple pages of debate on Irvin is incredible IMO. Dude was a playmaker as a WR and a rarity among WR's, a leader of the O.

TwinSisters
02-05-2007, 08:49 PM
He should have to wait.

Because he is a crybaby, that's why he is in now.

There are better players than him and he will always be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. So "dominance" was never achieved.

Huge
02-05-2007, 09:15 PM
He should have to wait.

Because he is a crybaby, that's why he is in now.

There are better players than him and he will always be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. So "dominance" was never achieved.
Wow...having to be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. That must sting.

Ask Darrell Green or Deion Sanders if Irvin ever achieved dominance.

TwinSisters
02-05-2007, 09:26 PM
Wow...having to be known as second chair to Jerry Rice. That must sting.

Ask Darrell Green or Deion Sanders if Irvin ever achieved dominance.

Deion? Another baby endorsing a baby.

If you followed the Cowboys at all... if you are going to toss "off field " behaviour THEN Harvey Martin should be in before Irvin.

BUT noooo... Harvey ain't around to cry about it, so he gets the shaft and has to sit out, so the baby can get his milk.

Personally, for the 90's he would be playing slot or riding the pine on my team. Behind Carter and Rice.

Second team with Tim Brown.
----

But on the bright side of things... Lynn Swann doesn't have to feel so lonely in the Hall now. He's got another 3 pump chump to sit with.

BattleRedToro
02-05-2007, 09:28 PM
I believe Michael Irvin deserved to be in the NFL Hall of Fame and the Pete Rose analogy is specious because although I also believe that Pete Rose should be in the Baseball Hall of Fame, that is a different HOF that operates under a different set of rules than the NFL HOF. The NFL HOF does not seem to concern itself with conduct outside of the game, and I think they are right to do so, in contrast to the MLB HOF seemingly being obsessed with a potential candidates conduct outside of the game. I also find it rather hypocritical of the MLB HOF to hold new candidates to a standard that they do not also hold to those who are already enshrined. For instance, if "Shoeless" Joe Jackson and Pete Rose are forbidden from being enshrined in the MLB HOF, why is Ty Cobb allowed to remain. Surely, his conduct off the field was as bad if not worse than anything they did. Or, is the name of the game, get into the MLB HOF before they find out about your misconduct and you are untouchable? I for one applaud the NFL HOF for staying out of the judging of character and simply enshrining the players that they feel were the best.

QB75
02-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Deion? Another baby endorsing a baby.

If you followed the Cowboys at all... if you are going to toss "off field " behaviour THEN Harvey Martin should be in before Irvin.

BUT noooo... Harvey ain't around to cry about it, so he gets the shaft and has to sit out, so the baby can get his milk.

Personally, for the 90's he would be playing slot or riding the pine on my team. Behind Carter and Rice.

Second team with Tim Brown.
----

But on the bright side of things... Lynn Swann doesn't have to feel so lonely in the Hall now. He's got another 3 pump chump to sit with.

He deserved to be in the Hall of Fame.

TwinSisters
02-05-2007, 09:47 PM
He deserved to be in the Hall of Fame.

I agree, Harvey does and Irvin should wait in line.

Harvey changed the game, Irvin played it.

The Hall is not honoured by Irvin, Irvin is honoured by the Hall.

Texasian
02-05-2007, 09:56 PM
Bottomline:
He's in!
Done!
End of story!
He's in and it was voted by the committee (which I am sure some had a hard time deciding)
Want to vent, complain to your local media representative (like politics :) ), John McClain for voting him in (though I agree with the vote to put him in)

281
02-05-2007, 10:09 PM
I'm sure I'll hear it about this. But how in the world can you have a player in the HOF that was charged and admitted to using an illegal drug (marijuana) and being in a place where a supposed rape or sexual misconduct took place with a teammate. Yet Pete Rose is banned from the HOF for gambling? At least gambling is legal in some places in the US. Hey they both admitted wrong doing. But I guess the race card can't be used because it's reversed this time.

he was a great player... same reason i think it's perfectly fine for o.j. to remain in the hall. baseball is stupid for the whole pete rose thing.

TexansTrueFan
02-05-2007, 11:00 PM
I'm sure I'll hear it about this. But how in the world can you have a player in the HOF that was charged and admitted to using an illegal drug (marijuana) and being in a place where a supposed rape or sexual misconduct took place with a teammate. Yet Pete Rose is banned from the HOF for gambling? At least gambling is legal in some places in the US. Hey they both admitted wrong doing. But I guess the race card can't be used because it's reversed this time.

Cause alot of people have used marijuana, so what,,,,,If u hadnt tried chicken ONCE how would you have known if youd like it our not,,,,haha come on and u cant keep someone out cause he was somewhere, where a rape case MIGHT have happened. Lord i guess the national inquier is the news source i should start reading.

DatTexBoy
02-06-2007, 03:44 AM
If there's a spot for Lawrence Taylor in Canton, then there should be one for Michael Irvin.

Like it or not, he's one of the best wide receivers ever to play the game. On one of the best teams that's ever been in the game.

He's gone a long way towards cleaning up his act the past few years as well. Well deserved.

I wanted to see if anyone brought his name up 1st but I see you thought of his as well

Huge
02-06-2007, 07:01 AM
Deion? Another baby endorsing a baby.

If you followed the Cowboys at all... if you are going to toss "off field " behaviour THEN Harvey Martin should be in before Irvin.

BUT noooo... Harvey ain't around to cry about it, so he gets the shaft and has to sit out, so the baby can get his milk.

Personally, for the 90's he would be playing slot or riding the pine on my team. Behind Carter and Rice.

Second team with Tim Brown.
----

But on the bright side of things... Lynn Swann doesn't have to feel so lonely in the Hall now. He's got another 3 pump chump to sit with.
Harvey Martin not being in the Hall has nothing to do with Irvin. Same for Cliff Harris or Bob Hayes. If those 3 never make it (and that'd be a crime), does that mean they should keep Irvin (another deserving player) out as well?

Really stupid logic.

And when have you heard Irvin crying about the Hall? He was interviewed each year he didn't make it and expressed his disappointment about not getting in. If that makes him a crybaby, then he's lumped with every other "crybaby" finalist that didn't make it in and were disappointed about it.

Again, really stupid logic.

And think about your depth chart. You're putting Irvin as the 3rd/4th best WR over an entire decade. A decade which was dominated by WRs. And yet you don't think that's worthy of going into the Hall?

Again, really stupid logic.

I agree, Harvey does and Irvin should wait in line.

Harvey changed the game, Irvin played it.

The Hall is not honoured by Irvin, Irvin is honoured by the Hall.
Notice all these WRs that are 6'3 or taller getting drafted higher than the shorter WRs? Irvin had something to do with that.

Martin was no doubt a great player and he'd be my choice as the next Cowboys player to go in. But he didn't impact the game anymore/less than Irvin.

TwinSisters
02-06-2007, 07:51 AM
There's no stupid logic about it all, really.

He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.

He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
---

Although I will concede one point... he did open the door and pave the way for other big mouth WRs like Owens. He should get credit for that.

Kaiser Toro
02-06-2007, 08:00 AM
I love watching Huge TwinSisters go at it.

Huge
02-06-2007, 09:23 AM
There's no stupid logic about it all, really.

He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.
We agree there should be others in ahead of him (like previously mentioned Harvey Martin). Where we disagree is that you have the idea that two wrongs (keeping Irvin out because Martin has yet to be voted in) makes a right. To me, that's stupid logic. Though it's equally stupid that Martin (along with Hayes and Harris) is not in.

But again, where have you seen Irvin crying about not getting in the Hall? 'Cause if Irvin is a crybaby, where does that put Harry Carson? He wanted his name removed from consideration because of his frustration.

He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
Rick Gosselin of The Dallas Morning News, USA Today's Jarrett Bell, and Troy Aikman were the ones presenting Irvin's case for the Hall this year. Is this the "ESPN audience" you're referring to?

kastofsna
02-06-2007, 10:24 AM
off the field behavior isn't supposed to factor into the voters' decision.

simple as that, really.

TwinSisters
02-06-2007, 11:14 AM
We agree there should be others in ahead of him (like previously mentioned Harvey Martin). Where we disagree is that you have the idea that two wrongs (keeping Irvin out because Martin has yet to be voted in) makes a right. To me, that's stupid logic. Though it's equally stupid that Martin (along with Hayes and Harris) is not in.

But again, where have you seen Irvin crying about not getting in the Hall? 'Cause if Irvin is a crybaby, where does that put Harry Carson? He wanted his name removed from consideration because of his frustration.


Rick Gosselin of The Dallas Morning News, USA Today's Jarrett Bell, and Troy Aikman were the ones presenting Irvin's case for the Hall this year. Is this the "ESPN audience" you're referring to?

It's not stupid. You want to reward a crybaby. I don't.
That's smart.

It's like not feeding pigeons. Cause if you feed pigeons they are going to hang around crapping all over thing waiting for you to feed them.

Case:
Martin was a drunk, drug addict, wife beater, kid beater, and generally a really all round mean fella. He's not in the Ring. No sir, not him. Nobody in church capitol of the world wants that type of guy up there with the likes of Irvin. .. o wait Irvin is in the Ring? My, my, have times changed with the arrival of Jerry Jones.

Martin:
Martin was a great interview and still a big man the last time I saw him. And he was humble about his accomplishments, as if a championship title, a Super Bowl co-MVP, 114 career sacks and 20 in a season weren't that big a deal.

He never had a sack dance. "Everybody saw what I did," he told me in 1997.

He never held out for more money. "It was a different time, they paid you to play. Play. That's what I did."

Memory can't recall if he ever stood over a quarterback and so much as shook his head in disgust.

What he did have was more sacks than any Cowboy before or since and the honor of being one of the men who made fans -- and eventually the NFL -- pay attention to the sack as a meaningful statistic. Landry called him the best pass rusher in Cowboys history.
from wikipedia via CBS

That's close to 30 years now. The Cowboys have had 3 Super Bowl teams and a handful of playoff games since then. Like that one where Joe is putting it on the money for "the Catch", beautiful man... poetry .. like higher forms of fine art or something. That stuff could hang right up there with a Picasso.

Anyway, where was I?

O yeah... Martin's records stand for 25-30 years.

AFTER Irvin's really small body of work stands for 20 years, then maybe we should give Irvin a little nod and some "ME" time. I mean, we really should let the baby grow some grey hairs on his chest first before putting him in the Hall. And really he should have to wait until Jerry Rice is in. You know, after Jerry Rice would be his time. As it was on the field, so it should be in the Hall.

BUT that muddies my point a little.

Martin didn't pitch a hissy fit about the Hall of Fame and thus is not in it with equal amounts of off field problems and surely equal amounts of field production. He was the Co-MVP of a Super Bowl.

Irvin crys and gets in.

That's the difference. Nothing but the crying.

You cry and the little Joe Bucks, Aikmans, and rootin tootin Cowboy writers all across America start to flash their maternal instincts. Just like they do for lil' baby Romo... and just like they did for Irvin.

P.S.
Martin ain't the only one that should be in before Irvin.

P.P.S.
Don't sully Carson in a topic with Irvin. That's just not right. Cowpokes have no shame.

P.P.P.S.
forget about the ESPN and Madden boys angle... it's just as valid though. The readership of the Hall voters is stocked with little kiddies that have never even played football. They watch HBO shows and think a stiff arm has something to do with a button combo. These writers know the score and what feeds them... and those lil cowboys luuuuv Michael Irvin. Diss Irvin, diss your readership and end up on the unemployment line.

"he's the greatest ever.. like when he does that thing with his arm. He's like .mmmph...mmmph. Man, that's so real and fresh."

bah007
02-06-2007, 12:04 PM
It's not stupid. You want to reward a crybaby. I don't.
That's smart.

It's like not feeding pigeons. Cause if you feed pigeons they are going to hang around crapping all over thing waiting for you to feed them.

Case:
Martin was a drunk, drug addict, wife beater, kid beater, and generally a really all round mean fella. He's not in the Ring. No sir, not him. Nobody in church capitol of the world wants that type of guy up there with the likes of Irvin. .. o wait Irvin is in the Ring? My, my, have times changed with the arrival of Jerry Jones.

Martin:

from wikipedia via CBS

That's close to 30 years now. The Cowboys have had 3 Super Bowl teams and a handful of playoff games since then. Like that one where Joe is putting it on the money for "the Catch", beautiful man... poetry .. like higher forms of fine art or something. That stuff could hang right up there with a Picasso.

Anyway, where was I?

O yeah... Martin's records stand for 25-30 years.

AFTER Irvin's really small body of work stands for 20 years, then maybe we should give Irvin a little nod and some "ME" time. I mean, we really should let the baby grow some grey hairs on his chest first before putting him in the Hall. And really he should have to wait until Jerry Rice is in. You know, after Jerry Rice would be his time. As it was on the field, so it should be in the Hall.

BUT that muddies my point a little.

Martin didn't pitch a hissy fit about the Hall of Fame and thus is not in it with equal amounts of off field problems and surely equal amounts of field production. He was the Co-MVP of a Super Bowl.

Irvin crys and gets in.

That's the difference. Nothing but the crying.

You cry and the little Joe Bucks, Aikmans, and rootin tootin Cowboy writers all across America start to flash their maternal instincts. Just like they do for lil' baby Romo... and just like they did for Irvin.

P.S.
Martin ain't the only one that should be in before Irvin.

P.P.S.
Don't sully Carson in a topic with Irvin. That's just not right. Cowpokes have no shame.

P.P.P.S.
forget about the ESPN and Madden boys angle... it's just as valid though. The readership of the Hall voters is stocked with little kiddies that have never even played football. They watch HBO shows and think a stiff arm has something to do with a button combo. These writers know the score and what feeds them... and those lil cowboys luuuuv Michael Irvin. Diss Irvin, diss your readership and end up on the unemployment line.

"he's the greatest ever.. like when he does that thing with his arm. He's like .mmmph...mmmph. Man, that's so real and fresh."

You must be a Bills fan.

God knows they hate the Cowboys and all their players.

HoustonFrog
02-06-2007, 12:08 PM
There's no stupid logic about it all, really.

He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.

He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
---

Although I will concede one point... he did open the door and pave the way for other big mouth WRs like Owens. He should get credit for that.

Wait his turn? The guy is in his 3rd year and had the stats and the rings to make it without hesitation. People don't even like him on ESPN. This is a completely useless argument. Here is something else

Irvin in 12 seasons ranked in the top 10 in receptions 4 times, in yards 6 times and in TD's 5 times. He pretty much was the leader on a team that won 3 SBs.

Huge
02-06-2007, 12:13 PM
That's a lot of time spent trying to convince me something I already agree with (Martin should be in the Hall of Fame).

P.S.
Martin ain't the only one that should be in before Irvin.
Again...agreed (see previous comments concerning Bob Hayes and Cliff Harris). An argument could also be made for Chuck Howley. Only Super Bowl MVP from a losing team. 6-time Pro Bowler. 6-time All Pro. 25 career INTs...as a LB (14 more than Carson). 14 Fumble recoveries (same as Carson).

P.P.S.
Don't sully Carson in a topic with Irvin. That's just not right. Cowpokes have no shame.
Yeah, you're right.

Carson was elected to the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 2006. His selection came after years of outspoken criticism of the Hall of Fame selection process. Carson's principal criticism of the process was that the vote is done by the media, not players and coaches. Carson went so far as to ask to have his name taken off the ballot in protest. Despite this, the reaction to his induction into the Hall was "well-deserved".

SamuraiSword
02-06-2007, 12:27 PM
You must be a Bills fan.

God knows they hate the Cowboys and all their players.

A lot of Houstonians hate the Cowboys as well. I see alot of hatred now a days because the cowboys were dominant during the late 80's and early 90's. Its kinda stupid in my opinion the past is the past deal with it.:bubble:

bah007
02-06-2007, 12:28 PM
A lot of Houstonians hate the Cowboys as well. I see alot of hatred now a days because the cowboys were dominant during the late 80's and early 90's. Its kinda stupid in my opinion the past is the past deal with it.:bubble:

I'm a Texans and Cowboys fan.

I dont understand why fans on this board have decided that you arent a Texans fan unless you hate the Cowboys.

Heywood
02-06-2007, 12:29 PM
like so many others here, this thread is garbage since it was started with vile confederate bilge.

WWJD
02-06-2007, 12:54 PM
I'm always fascinated by people that don't like the Cowboys but can pull up fact after fact about them.

For the most part if I don't care for something I don't bother.

And I always thought that Too Tall was a better player than Harvey and I liked Harvey. But the one that made that DL go was Randy White.

HoustonFrog
02-06-2007, 12:57 PM
I'm a Texans and Cowboys fan.

I dont understand why fans on this board have decided that you arent a Texans fan unless you hate the Cowboys.

Agreed. Grew up there in Ft. Worth. I've explained this many times. It makes no sense. I don't think people up there give a rats tail about the hatred compared to here. I grew up loving football and though Dallas was my team and always has been, I thought that Texas teams were great. I loved the Oilers with Earl and had an older brother that went to UT when he was there. I liked the Astros and Rockets too despite being a Mavs and Rangers fan. When I moved here in 93 I saw the Rockets win 2 titles and was fired up and I waited on a football team. I could go on but all I can say is haveng a least favorite team is fine but when people just bash for bashing sake it looks like a giant case of P envy.

BTW, 9 teams have more HOF than the Cowboys despite 8 SB appearances and 5 wins. Harvey, Too Tall, Waters, Harris, Hayes, etc all sit out there.

Texasian
02-06-2007, 02:11 PM
Agreed. Grew up there in Ft. Worth. I've explained this many times. It makes no sense. I don't think people up there give a rats tail about the hatred compared to here. I grew up loving football and though Dallas was my team and always has been, I thought that Texas teams were great. I loved the Oilers with Earl and had an older brother that went to UT when he was there. I liked the Astros and Rockets too despite being a Mavs and Rangers fan. When I moved here in 93 I saw the Rockets win 2 titles and was fired up and I waited on a football team. I could go on but all I can say is haveng a least favorite team is fine but when people just bash for bashing sake it looks like a giant case of P envy.

BTW, 9 teams have more HOF than the Cowboys despite 8 SB appearances and 5 wins. Harvey, Too Tall, Waters, Harris, Hayes, etc all sit out there.
Amen, but I still hate the Mavs :)

Texasian
02-06-2007, 02:17 PM
I'm a Texans and Cowboys fan.

I dont understand why fans on this board have decided that you arent a Texans fan unless you hate the Cowboys.

Ditto. Fans like us (along with HoustonFrog) appreciate the fact that we have 2 teams in the state or for that matter many teams to cheer for. Not many have this previlege. Everyone talks about 'Texas Pride' but I think the unacknowledgement of other cities in this state is full of jealousy and envy. How do you know 'Texas Pride' when you can't have an objective conversation about a player from another Texas team?
BTW here in DFW there is no mention of Bruce Matthews, so the same goes here!
UGHHH!!!! APPRECIATE IT!

Double Barrel
02-06-2007, 04:06 PM
I'm always fascinated by people that don't like the Cowboys but can pull up fact after fact about them.

For the most part if I don't care for something I don't bother.

Well, as an NFL football fan living in Houston, you either watch all the Dallas Cowboys games or often have no football to watch at all. (Back in the day when the Oilers games would get blacked out, the Cowboys games were the default if you wanted your football fix.)

My love for NFL football is much greater than my dislike for the Dallas Cowboys. :winky:

StarStruck
02-06-2007, 04:18 PM
There's no stupid logic about it all, really.

He should wait for his turn, instead of crying about not getting his due. There are other guys that shoud be in well ahead of him, because he is was not big enough or made a big enough impact on the game.

He works for ESPN and is a complete clutz. He's banking or cashing in on his "ESPN audience" approval, not his field play. Those same dolts that feed the writers that in turn voted him in this year.
---

Although I will concede one point... he did open the door and pave the way for other big mouth WRs like Owens. He should get credit for that.

Apparently talent isn't a criteria being considered by you for going into the Hall of Fame. It would be really bad if the Hall of Fame turned into a pageant, or people waiting in line for the featured entre. Then we would have folk singing the praises of such stand up people as Kurt Warner, Giff Neilson, etc. as shoo ins.

BattleRedToro
02-06-2007, 07:39 PM
like so many others here, this thread is garbage since it was started with vile confederate bilge.

What do you mean by vile confederate bilge? That doesn't make any sense.

And I always thought that Too Tall was a better player than Harvey and I liked Harvey.

I think you meant Officer Hightower. :tv:

Apparently talent isn't a criteria being considered by you for going into the Hall of Fame. It would be really bad if the Hall of Fame turned into a pageant, or people waiting in line for the featured entre. Then we would have folk singing the praises of such stand up people as Kurt Warner, Giff Neilson, etc. as shoo ins.

Throwing Kurt Warner in with Neilson isn't really fair. Atleast Warner was a starter on a Super Bowl Championship team.

TwinSisters
02-07-2007, 02:11 AM
Apparently talent isn't a criteria being considered by you for going into the Hall of Fame. It would be really bad if the Hall of Fame turned into a pageant, or people waiting in line for the featured entre. Then we would have folk singing the praises of such stand up people as Kurt Warner, Giff Neilson, etc. as shoo ins.

Not true at all.

But first a little note:
The original topic was Irvin and Rose and baseball and football. That was already debated to conclusion. The subtopic is Irvin and when he should go in.

We will take Carson as the stick, since Huge likes him.

SUBJECT A:
Carson Pro-Bowl LB from 1978 to 1987. Retired 1988ish.
Cried about not getting into the HOF.
Put into the Hall 2006. Let's just say that's 17 years for easy math.
Carson was never the DOMINANT LB in his career, that goes to LT.

SUBJECT B:
Irvin Pro-Bowl WR for 5 paltry years. ( the exact same number that Moss and Owens have had... and slightly above par for any good WR that plays )
Cried about not getting into the HOF.
Put into the Hall 2007. That's about 7 years I think.
Irvin was never the DOMINANT WR in his career, that goes to RICE.

What's really at issue is that he and all the little Cowpers everywhere wanted him as a FIRST BALLOT HOFer. Which he is not.

And if we are going to give awards to crybabies, then Irvin shouldn't be in the Hall until 2017.

How long it takes you to get into the Hall is already a precedent set. The real uproar comes from all the paddyboys that wanted their hero in on the first ballot.

---
As to Bills fan charges:
Right on, you are close. I am the founding member of the League of Commerce First in Rhode Island. Our ticket is to bring the Cowboys to a state that truely deserves them. A state that embodies their spirit. It's the NFC EAST and in the interest of geographic correctness, the Cowboys should call us home. The Cranton Cowboys... hot damn! Our motto is Hope. In this here audacity of hope, we dream of the Cowboys. America's Team, America's Dream... the Cranton Cowboys 2008.

Won't even have to change the logo.

infantrycak
02-07-2007, 04:00 PM
Irvin was never the DOMINANT WR in his career, that goes to RICE.

As if there can only be one dominant player at a position at a time. Guaranteed every coach the Cowboys faced game planned to stop him. Heck, there were reports throughout his career of coaches sending in tapes ahead of the games to the refs because Irvin was changing the way the position was played.

TwinSisters
02-07-2007, 04:29 PM
As if there can only be one dominant player at a position at a time. Guaranteed every coach the Cowboys faced game planned to stop him. Heck, there were reports throughout his career of coaches sending in tapes ahead of the games to the refs because Irvin was changing the way the position was played.

That is about offensive pass interference, not his ability to play.

If that's grounds for an early entry into the Hall of Fame, then Kenny Stabler should have his mail box stuffed with apologies from the past 60 or so writers due to the fumble rule change. Or whatever it is called...from that Holy Roller play.

A positive change is like Martin that helped define defensive lineman as pass rushers. Taylor that redefined the role of linebackers.

Dent has a whole defense built around him... and he didn't get the nod AGAIN. The 85 Bears defense is still one of the best ever fielded.

infantrycak
02-07-2007, 04:33 PM
That is about offensive pass interference, not his ability to play.

The refs disagreed with your assessment and GM's and coaches have since looked for players in his mold.

WWJD
02-07-2007, 05:00 PM
Michael was a great player. Period.

He deserves his spot.

TwinSisters
02-07-2007, 05:22 PM
The refs disagreed with your assessment and GM's and coaches have since looked for players in his mold.

That is not correct.

http://www.cowboysplus.com/classic/webspecials/michaelirvin/071200irvin.html
dated July 12 2000.

And he used his hands to push off and separate from cornerbacks so effectively that the NFL instituted rules to force him to change his style. Only great players, said Jones, force rule changes.

And Jones is... well, let's just play nice.

There are at least a hundred rules that have been changed by non-Hall of Fame players... everything from stick'em to spearing with your helmet to the horse collar tackle.

You should be able to trust that source too. Irvin is a glory hound that doesn't know his place, the chump is talking Ring of Honor and Hall of Fame from his own mouth... I bet before he had even collected his first pension check.

Cowboy fans are only so happy to oblige him.

and good for them. They need something to talk about in Vermont.. New Hampshire... Delaware... Connecticut... Maine... New Jersey.

TwinSisters
02-07-2007, 05:32 PM
Michael was a great player. Period.

He deserves his spot.

of course he does.

And I suspect you would say the same for 20 other Cowboys from Leon Lett to Larry Brown. For a leader of 3 Super Bowl teams, he sure didn't pick up a lot of Super Bowl MVPs or any MVPs for that matter.

Not even a Offensive Player of the Year award.

disaacks3
02-07-2007, 06:53 PM
The intense HATRED being spewed on this thread is overwhelming...

Michael Irvin was one of the best WR's to ever play in the NFL. I'll agree that the "no push-off" rule was instituted mainly due to his influence. He was still a VERY clutch player and respected by players on both sides of the ball. He earned his spot, get over it...

For the Pete Rose comparison, I STILL think Pete belongs in Cooperstown, despite the allegations regarding gambling.

O.J. is still in Canton, and I'm guessing that murder is still something that bothers people a whole lot more than gambling ever will.

If you're a great player, then you simply ARE, no matter what your off-field conduct may show. Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown - all GREAT players that shouldn't EVER be emulated for their off-field conduct, but they were ALL game-changers and deserve their spots in SPORTS history.

kastofsna
02-07-2007, 08:28 PM
of course he does.

And I suspect you would say the same for 20 other Cowboys from Leon Lett to Larry Brown. For a leader of 3 Super Bowl teams, he sure didn't pick up a lot of Super Bowl MVPs or any MVPs for that matter.

Not even a Offensive Player of the Year award.
lmao yeah let's put Larry Brown in the HoF. he should get Neil O'Donnell to give his induction speech.

StarStruck
02-07-2007, 09:15 PM
lmao yeah let's put Larry Brown in the HoF. he should get Neil O'Donnell to give his induction speech.


Priceless!