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View Full Version : Why exactly do we need another DE?


gtexan02
01-30-2007, 08:06 PM
I thought Weaver played pretty well at DE this year. I've heard a lot of talk about moving him inside, but I just don't see it. Then you add in Babin (our sack leader this year) and Peek (if we resign him) and I dno't see DE being nearly as much of a position of need as DT.

Bubbajwp
01-30-2007, 08:13 PM
I thought Weaver played pretty well at DE this year. I've heard a lot of talk about moving him inside, but I just don't see it. Then you add in Babin (our sack leader this year) and Peek (if we resign him) and I dno't see DE being nearly as much of a position of need as DT.

Thats the reason. Team leader and he has 5 sacks.

Texas
01-30-2007, 08:17 PM
I agree with you..We do not need a DE...I'd like to see us pull a real monster at DT however! I say we take branch if available and if not I'd like to see us with okoye

Trap_Star
01-30-2007, 08:19 PM
Hey we dont want Mario to get triple teamed for the rest of his career, right??

run-david-run
01-30-2007, 08:24 PM
Weaver is not a pass rusher and with him and Mario on the outside, we dont have the speed to consitantly get to the QB. Weaver does need to be moved inside and allow either Babin or a new DE (I doubt we resign Peek) to play opposite Mario on the weakside.

Texian
01-30-2007, 08:33 PM
Kubiak (on fulfilling the need for pass rushers) “There’s no doubt, we’ve got to find a way to put some pressure on some people. We played a group yesterday that was missing a couple of guards and (defensive coordinator) Richard (Smith) dialed up plenty of zone gods trying to create pressure and that is one glaring thing that I’ve been looking at this morning, comparing progress, where there was progress and some things we didn’t do well. One of the first things that I looked at was the fact that we didn’t pressure the quarterback really well. we’ve got to figure out a way to do that and if we’ve got to be able to do that with four guys in this league if you’re having to dial-up zone dogs and blitz in this league week–in and week-out, specially in our division in my opinion, you’re going to get burned. So we’ve got to find a way to pressure the quarterback with four guys and that will be a big point of emphasis.”

gtexan02
01-30-2007, 08:42 PM
Weaver has good run stopping ability, but he is no DT. He also has limited pass rushing ability. If we were so concerned with getting good pressure off the edges on 1st and 2nd down, why did we bring in a 3-4 DE with no history of sacks?

ArlingtonTexan
01-30-2007, 09:27 PM
Weaver has good run stopping ability, but he is no DT. He also has limited pass rushing ability. If we were so concerned with getting good pressure off the edges on 1st and 2nd down, why did we bring in a 3-4 DE with no history of sacks?

That's good question because while different style of players Williams and Weaver are both best at playing Strong-Side DE in our 4-3. the good news is that Weaver is diverse enough to take snaps in all positions along the 4-3. The hope for the Texans is that Mario will be able to do the same so that they can move those two around the line depending on situation.

As for DE, Babin and Peek have not shown to be very good pass rushers after several years in the league. An edge rusher with speed is one of the top priorities for this team in my mind.

gtexan02
01-30-2007, 09:36 PM
Why wouldn't a very quick interior rusher like Okoye be better? That way we could keep Babin/Peek on the outside and draw away coverage from them as exterior linemen move inside to prevent the pocket from collapsing.

threetoedpete
01-30-2007, 10:04 PM
I thought Weaver played pretty well at DE this year. I've heard a lot of talk about moving him inside, but I just don't see it. Then you add in Babin (our sack leader this year) and Peek (if we resign him) and I dno't see DE being nearly as much of a position of need as DT.

Sacks.

YoungTexanFan
01-30-2007, 10:28 PM
The basic reason we need another DE is because our team sack leader was a reserve who notched 5 sacks. The Bears had a rookie reserve notch 14. We don't need another high pick, "complete" DE. We need our version of Mark Anderson or Freeny. We need someone who has decent size, but can just get to the QB. We need a speed rusher, because chances are good he gets to go 1-on-1 with Mario requiring mulitiple blockers on the other side. We need someone like Moss, Brazun, or Hickmen.

run-david-run
01-30-2007, 10:29 PM
Sacks.

Sacks are the most overrated statistic in the NFL. Its not about getting sacks, its about getting consitant pressure, something the Texans passing offense knows plenty about.

TexanSam
01-30-2007, 10:43 PM
Sacks are the most overrated statistic in the NFL. Its not about getting sacks, its about getting consitant pressure, something the Texans passing offense knows plenty about.

And something the defensive line doesn't know how to do. We need another DE because we can't get constant pressure on the QB. Too often the QB had way too much time to throw the ball. We could have the best secondary in the NFL and if we don't find a way to pressure the QB, we aren't going to have a good defense. I think DE is a bigger issue than getting another DT. I really liked the way Anthony Maddox played last season and I think Weaver is a better player as a tackle than an end. I'd love to have Gaines Adams on the other side of Mario. Adams, Mario, Dunta Robinson, DeMeco Ryans....:drool:

gtexan02
01-30-2007, 10:47 PM
And something the defensive line doesn't know how to do. We need another DE because we can't get constant pressure on the QB. Too often the QB had way too much time to throw the ball. We could have the best secondary in the NFL and if we don't find a way to pressure the QB, we aren't going to have a good defense. I think DE is a bigger issue than getting another DT. I really liked the way Anthony Maddox played last season and I think Weaver is a better player as a tackle than an end. I'd love to have Gaines Adams on the other side of Mario. Adams, Mario, Dunta Robinson, DeMeco Ryans....:drool:

Sacks are a product of your entire team, not just your DEs.

You don't get sacks if:
1) Your team is behind most of the game (the other team runs more) <- If we have better offense, our team won't be trailing so often
2) Your team has a poor run defense (the other team runs more) <- If we keep Weaver and Williams on the edge, and get a run stopping DT, the other team will be forced into more 3rd and long situations and we can rush without worry
3) Your team has poor DBs (the other team doesn't have to check down receiers) <- If we get better DBs, the opposing teams WRs will have more trouble getting open, and we have longer to collapse the pocket
4) Your team gets beat by a draw/screen too often (you play more containment) <- IMO the Texans weren't coached well on how to recognize the screen/draw (they always worked really well!), causing us to become less aggressive
5) You play against mobile QBs (We played VY twice, Garrard once, and a few other moving targets) <- Better spying linebackers will help with this.

TexanSam
01-30-2007, 10:50 PM
Sacks are a product of your entire team, not just your DEs.

But the fact remains that our DE's could not get any consistent pressure on the QB. Having a rotating door of ends with Babin, Peek, and Weaver isn't going to work. Neither of them should be starting as an end in the NFL. Weaver should be a tackle, what he was when he was with Baltimore. In a 4-3, you rely on the line to get most of the pressure on the QB, and our line didn't do that consistently enough.

gtexan02
01-30-2007, 10:53 PM
But the fact remains that our DE's could not get any consistent pressure on the QB. Having a rotating door of ends with Babin, Peek, and Weaver isn't going to work. Neither of them should be starting as an end in the NFL. Weaver should be a tackle, what he was when he was with Baltimore. In a 4-3, you rely on the line to get most of the pressure on the QB, and our line didn't do that consistently enough.

Weaver wasn't a tackle in baltimore..

TexanSam
01-30-2007, 10:56 PM
Weaver wasn't a tackle in baltimore..

Yeah, I was wrong on that one. I thought the Chronicle or some other site said he was a tackle in Baltimore, but I guess not after reading his bio. Doesn't change the fact he wasn't very good at pressuring the QB.

LORK 88
01-30-2007, 10:57 PM
Weaver wasn't a tackle in baltimore..
He was a 3-4 DE which is typically an undersized DT/oversized DE. Speaking of Baltimore, 5 players on their team had 5 or more sacks this season. In other words, they had 5 players who topped our team sack leader's mark which is the easy answer to why DE is a need. Anytime you use a rotation or multiple players at a position, it either means you have too much talent or too little talent. In our case, its easy to see which one it is for the other DE spot opposite Mario.

gtexan02
01-30-2007, 11:00 PM
Yeah, I was wrong on that one. I thought the Chronicle or some other site said he was a tackle in Baltimore, but I guess not after reading his bio. Doesn't change the fact he wasn't very good at pressuring the QB.

The fact of the matter is we have 4 highly touted DEs, and none of them are producing.
Williams is supposed to be the next Julius Peppers
Weaver was a high round pick out of college, and played well in the 3-4 in Balt
Babin was a 1st round reach who played DE well in college
Peek is a speed rushing end who is supposed to be an excellent rusher

Every one of those guys looked like a bust the majority of the year

The fact that zero of these DEs lived up to their expectations tells me that something else is the problem.
-It may be the DTs who were a revolving door becuause of injuries.
-It may have been any of the aforementioned problems (we were behind, we were weak against the run, we had terrible DBs, etc)

I do not think DE is our largest problem, and I sincerely hope we don't draft DE with our 1st round choice. We have so many larger holes and so much money all ready tied up in the DL that drafting DL 1st is just going to end up wit hmore frustrating results.

MorKnolle
01-30-2007, 11:17 PM
Weaver is not a pass rusher and with him and Mario on the outside, we dont have the speed to consitantly get to the QB. Weaver does need to be moved inside and allow either Babin or a new DE (I doubt we resign Peek) to play opposite Mario on the weakside.

Exactly. Our line of Mario and Weaver at DEs and whoever inside was pretty strong against the run, but we got very little pass rush out of it. Our smaller line with Weaver inside and Babin/Peek at DE got a little better pass rush but that one side was very weak against the run. Weaver isn't as good against the run inside at DT but he can provide decent pass pressure from there. We need to improve our pass rush most of all, and Weaver at DE doesn't supply that for us, he can supply some pressure at DT. Someone like Gaines Adams would give us a nice pass rush but he won't be any better against the run than Babin or Peek. A guy like Jamaal Anderson would give us much better pass rush than Weaver off the edge but would be stronger against the run than Adams/Peek/Babin.

TexanFanInCC
01-31-2007, 12:26 AM
Why wouldn't a very quick interior rusher like Okoye be better? That way we could keep Babin/Peek on the outside and draw away coverage from them as exterior linemen move inside to prevent the pocket from collapsing.

i agree. i can only imagine what an okoiye (whatever spelling) would do in terms of drawing focus away from what should be a healthy and smarter mario williams. on passing situations....williams, okoiye, weaver, peek. :drool:

Insideop
01-31-2007, 03:04 AM
Weaver is not a pass rusher and with him and Mario on the outside, we dont have the speed to consitantly get to the QB. Weaver does need to be moved inside and allow either Babin or a new DE (I doubt we resign Peek) to play opposite Mario on the weakside.

Weaver is listed at 6'3" and 280 lbs. Realistically, how long do you think he would hold up at DT every down instead of just playing DT on passing downs like he does now? I think most "every down" DT's run at least 300 lbs or more in the NFL. I know there are probably some exceptions, but for the most part I think they are 300+. Don't know if Weaver would last at DT or even if he would want to move there.

threetoedpete
01-31-2007, 08:11 AM
Sacks are the most overrated statistic in the NFL. Its not about getting sacks, its about getting consitant pressure, something the Texans passing offense knows plenty about.

Oh brother.

Bears 40. Indianapolis 25, San Deigo 61, New Orleans 38
Houston 28

Mr teX
01-31-2007, 10:22 AM
I thought Weaver played pretty well at DE this year. I've heard a lot of talk about moving him inside, but I just don't see it. Then you add in Babin (our sack leader this year) and Peek (if we resign him) and I dno't see DE being nearly as much of a position of need as DT.

That & the fact that we were in the bottom half for rushing defense & total defense pretty much sums it up. Add in the fact that we didn't have anyone in the top 30 in sacks in the AFC by itself......... & well I think the reason is somewhere in there.

Dunta_23
01-31-2007, 10:56 AM
Weaver is listed at 6'3" and 280 lbs. Realistically, how long do you think he would hold up at DT every down instead of just playing DT on passing downs like he does now? I think most "every down" DT's run at least 300 lbs or more in the NFL. I know there are probably some exceptions, but for the most part I think they are 300+. Don't know if Weaver would last at DT or even if he would want to move there.

These are the same concerns I have about Weaver....he is not as productive as as strong side DE as youd like him to be against the pass, but he is tough against the run....maybe on obvious passing downs, you throw Mario and Weaver inside and put Babin and say Gaines Adams outside and just go after the QB...But I dont see Weaver on the inside full time...

TexansSeminole
01-31-2007, 11:20 AM
I see Weaver as a run stopper and that is all. He really provides 0 pressure and 0 threat of pressure from the outside. IMO if I was the new D-line coach I would come in here and tell Weaver that he was playing DT next year. Weaver has never fit our defense. I have always wondered why we picked him up. I guess he is just better than the rest of the guys we had...I'd bet that was the only reason we picked him up.

beerlover
01-31-2007, 11:41 AM
I see Weaver as a run stopper and that is all. He really provides 0 pressure and 0 threat of pressure from the outside. IMO if I was the new D-line coach I would come in here and tell Weaver that he was playing DT next year. Weaver has never fit our defense. I have always wondered why we picked him up. I guess he is just better than the rest of the guys we had...I'd bet that was the only reason we picked him up.

strong side DE, then they drafted Mario.

Texian
01-31-2007, 01:11 PM
BRILLIANTExactly. Our line of Mario and Weaver at DEs and whoever inside was pretty strong against the run, but we got very little pass rush out of it. Our smaller line with Weaver inside and Babin/Peek at DE got a little better pass rush but that one side was very weak against the run. Weaver isn't as good against the run inside at DT but he can provide decent pass pressure from there. We need to improve our pass rush most of all, and Weaver at DE doesn't supply that for us, he can supply some pressure at DT. Someone like Gaines Adams would give us a nice pass rush but he won't be any better against the run than Babin or Peek. A guy like Jamaal Anderson would give us much better pass rush than Weaver off the edge but would be stronger against the run than Adams/Peek/Babin.

Battle Red Flash
01-31-2007, 03:22 PM
I thought Weaver played pretty well at DE this year. and I dno't see DE being nearly as much of a position of need as DT.

I agree it's not a huge need, but with a #1 DE, our front four could be great in a hurry, and that makes the whole D better fast.

keyfro
01-31-2007, 07:49 PM
look the reason why we need another DE is actually easy to understand...we don't have a weak-side DE on this roster...we have two strong side DE's and two guys who really should be OLB's in the 3-4 defense...while both babin and peek have the ability to play DE in the 4-3 it was obvious this season that they even when being blocked by one offensive tackle could not get to the QB on a consistant basis...sacks are not an overrated statistic...sacks disrupt the flow of the offense...texans fans should understand this better than any other fans of how screwed up an offense can be once the defense is applying constant pressure on the QB

peek probably needs to move on to a team that is running the 3-4 defense...babin needs to be re-evaluated on this team...if he cannot become the starting WDE then there is no reason to keep him at that salary for a back up role...either he needs to restructure his deal or he needs to be traded...weaver and mario techniquelly play the same position...with weaver recovering from a torn rotator cuff there is no garentee he'll be ready by training camp...we no need to look else where for another DE

DT is also a need since payne should be gone during FA...travis johnson has not shown up...and especially since our best DT is street free agent anthony maddox...while branch and okoye are solid talents i really do hate the idea of drafting another D-lineman with our number one pick...we already have spent too much money on the d-line with nothing to show for...kris jenkins is probably going to be a cap casualty and is a sure thing when it comes to being a starter in this league(when healthy)

solid weakside DE's can be found later in the draft rounds 2-5

threetoedpete
01-31-2007, 08:11 PM
Looking at the board this year in the Draft. some pretty good propsect on the baord at DE in the second to third round range...what do you think Babin's could generate in trade value...seriously. Would you move on with a fourth round pick offer ?

MorKnolle
01-31-2007, 09:07 PM
Looking at the board this year in the Draft. some pretty good propsect on the baord at DE in the second to third round range...what do you think Babin's could generate in trade value...seriously. Would you move on with a fourth round pick offer ?

No one would offer us a 4th for Babin, if they did we'd be fools to not take it.

threetoedpete
01-31-2007, 09:14 PM
No one would offer us a 4th for Babin, if they did we'd be fools to not take it.

You've already shown your ***** on the Brown/Spencer issue. The question Mark was to Keyfro. My bad for not quoting him. I thought that would be obvious.

Lucky
01-31-2007, 09:24 PM
...babin needs to be re-evaluated on this team...if he cannot become the starting WDE then there is no reason to keep him at that salary for a back up role...either he needs to restructure his deal or he needs to be traded...
Babin's salary for 2007 is $735,503. There is still over $2 million left on his signing bonus unamortized. Jason costs more to get rid of than to keep. He will have to play his way off the team to get cut.

stevo3883
01-31-2007, 09:31 PM
I agree it's not a huge need, but with a #1 DE, our front four could be great in a hurry, and that makes the whole D better fast.


deja vu...

Luv Ya Blue 2007
01-31-2007, 11:26 PM
I was an immediate fan of Mario when we drafted him. Obviously he's a big concern for the opposing teams. Or they would not need to double team him. If Maddux, Weaver and TJ can solve our DT problems and get the Double team off of Mario than go get a DE. If not, we need a Okoye or Branch to help get those Double Teams off of Mario. Smith & Kubes will get it right, I have no worries.

keyfro
02-01-2007, 05:11 PM
threetoedpete if someone offers a 4th rounder for babin i take it only if they are not willing to part with a player of equal value on the team...remember you can get a starting qb in this league for a 4th round trade...we got eric moulds for a 5th last year...so we can get a heck of a player for a 4th round grade...if a team likes babin so much that they are willing to part with a 4th rounder i'm going to ask what o-lineman they are willing to part with as well...but if the 4th round pick is in the top 12 picks of that round i probably take it

(keep this in mind) i don't like jason babin as well...i've hated his attitude ever since he became a texan...and it all started with the question, "do you feel you more pressure to perform well since this team spent so many draft picks to trade to get you?" and his answer was simply, "no"...what the @#$^ do you mean no...if i'm a player and a team spent that much just to trade back into the first round to get me my answer is hell yes i feel more pressure because i know how many other players they could have picked up