PDA

View Full Version : JaMarcus Russell: Prototypical Bust


kastofsna
01-25-2007, 12:22 PM
Ryan Leaf. Tim Couch. Akili Smith. Andre Ware. Jeff George. Heath Shuler.

Some big name busts in recent NFL history. Lots of pre-draft buzz, created by some big games in college, some impressive workouts, but mostly just hype.

Strong arms, but not the greatest decision-makers. Quickly learned a simplified college offense, but struggled with a complicated pro offense with huge playbooks and a lot more reads.

The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become. Some of these guys didn't have the best work ethic just because of their personalities. Leaf and Couch were pretty aloof guys, and Smith had some problems there, too. You CAN'T succeed at the next level if you think you can get away with some of the things you do in college, simple as that. Then you have guys like Shuler who combined all of that with the fact that he held out for his entire initial training camp. That's not going to end well.

Onto JaMarcus Russell. He fits the mold. Almost perfectly. Strong arm, but not the best decisions on the field. Some good games throughout his career, but nothing spectacular. No one even considered him a top prospect till one game against a very weak Notre Dame defense, a game where he had several questionable throws, including an interception thrown into triple coverage. His work ethic has been questioned for a while now, as well as his general non-chalant attitude towards the team. When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

19-10
01-25-2007, 12:27 PM
Only time will tell. If that's true about what he said concerning who he'd like to play for then you may be right. Attitude and character are important but dude does have some mad skills. He'll get drafted high b/c coaches think they can fix anything

Maddict5
01-25-2007, 12:29 PM
this is a good place to throw this into:

http://www.nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/9950047



Every offseason, New England's Tom Brady works with former College of San Mateo head coach Tom Martinez, who cleans up the Patriots quarterback's mechanics.


But last weekend, for the first time, Martinez worked with LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell, regarded as one of the top prospects in the upcoming NFL draft. And what Martinez said should catch the attention of everyone in Oakland's front office.

After working with Russell, Martinez told some people that he never has seen a talent quite like Russell -- including Brady. Martinez was highly impressed with Russell's "coachability" and his physical skills.

Martinez said that Russell is the type of quarterback who can do everything wrong on a play and still have it come out right. But the fact that Martinez endorsed Russell as strongly as he did only reinforces the notion Russell will be going to the Raiders with the draft's No. 1 overall pick.

Maddict5
01-25-2007, 12:32 PM
When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.



about that- whats he meant to say: 'im playing for .... and thats that'

Texian
01-25-2007, 12:36 PM
I think Russell is going to be the real deal. Look at his record vs those you listed as busts. Look at the competetion Russell played against and his successes. He kept his team in the National title hunt during his tenure.

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 12:39 PM
Ryan Leaf. Tim Couch. Akili Smith. Andre Ware. Jeff George. Heath Shuler.

Some big name busts in recent NFL history. Lots of pre-draft buzz, created by some big games in college, some impressive workouts, but mostly just hype.

Strong arms, but not the greatest decision-makers. Quickly learned a simplified college offense, but struggled with a complicated pro offense with huge playbooks and a lot more reads.

The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become. Some of these guys didn't have the best work ethic just because of their personalities. Leaf and Couch were pretty aloof guys, and Smith had some problems there, too. You CAN'T succeed at the next level if you think you can get away with some of the things you do in college, simple as that. Then you have guys like Shuler who combined all of that with the fact that he held out for his entire initial training camp. That's not going to end well.

Onto JaMarcus Russell. He fits the mold. Almost perfectly. Strong arm, but not the best decisions on the field. Some good games throughout his career, but nothing spectacular. No one even considered him a top prospect till one game against a very weak Notre Dame defense, a game where he had several questionable throws, including an interception thrown into triple coverage. His work ethic has been questioned for a while now, as well as his general non-chalant attitude towards the team. When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

Don't know enough about him. Arm strength, size, and some athleticism are always nice, but they are no guarantee (Boller comes to mind, a few other guys). Lazy QBs should never be drafted in the 1st... but that's for the teams drafting him to determine. The only people that know if he's really lazy are Jamarcus, his QB coach, and his strength coach, probably.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 12:42 PM
I think Russell is going to be the real deal. Look at his record vs those you listed as busts. Look at the competetion Russell played against and his successes. He kept his team in the National title hunt during his tenure.
LSU should've actually won more games with the talent they have. his resume should look a lot more like matt leinart's than jason white's.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 12:59 PM
I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

My God, you said the same things about Young, only you threw out his work ethic all together, to make him fit your QB Bust mold.....

I bet you still think Highly of Quinn, whose name you could have substituted for Russell's in the above article...... except IMHO Brady is even more consistent in making poor decisions.

Again, like Vince you bring up the fact that no one though much of him as a prospect before the bowl game. But just like Vince, he never mentioned he was even remotely interested in coming out & declaring early. The odds were against it.

Nobody had Quinn rated very highly last year....... because he didn't declare. IMHO, he would have been better off had he declared and come out early.

you look at players like Reggie Bush, & Brady Quinn, and say,"these guys will be stars in the NFL".... but look at guys like Vince Young, and Jamarcus Russell and say, "these guys are all hype".......

something is wrong with where you draw your line.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 01:14 PM
My God, you said the same things about Young, only you threw out his work ethic all together, to make him fit your QB Bust mold.....

I bet you still think Highly of Quinn, whose name you could have substituted for Russell's in the above article...... except IMHO Brady is even more consistent in making poor decisions.

Again, like Vince you bring up the fact that no one though much of him as a prospect before the bowl game. But just like Vince, he never mentioned he was even remotely interested in coming out & declaring early. The odds were against it.

Nobody had Quinn rated very highly last year....... because he didn't declare. IMHO, he would have been better off had he declared and come out early.

you look at players like Reggie Bush, & Brady Quinn, and say,"these guys will be stars in the NFL".... but look at guys like Vince Young, and Jamarcus Russell and say, "these guys are all hype".......

something is wrong with where you draw your line.
no i said young would be a bust because texas simplified a pro-style offense and he only found success from a 2-read/zone-read offense.

brady quinn has gotten nothing but huge praise for his work ethic and ability to pick up a complicated charlie weiss offense and run it to perfection. i pretty much feel the same way about troy smith. hard worker and dedicated to the game.

russell has far more bust-potential than young ever did.

Honoring Earl 34
01-25-2007, 01:16 PM
What are ... Sony , Pioneer , Panasonic , and Bose ?

Texian
01-25-2007, 01:45 PM
I think you are just looking for a fight. Russell lost 3 games. He had 10 4th quarter comebacks. Don't dig yourself this hole. You don't want this egg on your face.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 01:49 PM
no i said young would be a bust because texas simplified a pro-style offense and he only found success from a 2-read/zone-read offense.

brady quinn has gotten nothing but huge praise for his work ethic and ability to pick up a complicated charlie weiss offense and run it to perfection. i pretty much feel the same way about troy smith. hard worker and dedicated to the game.

russell has far more bust-potential than young ever did.


out of curiosity.... have you ever disagreed with the "media" about a pick?? who has it, and who doesn't?? or do you just follow the company line??

I ask, because they, and you were wrong about Vince. I know it's early, but you & "the media" said he wouldn't be ready for years to come, and if he proved anything at all in '06, it's that he is ready. He's not polished by any means, he isn't a prolific passer..... but he's shown that he can play his game at this level. You might not like his game, but it is what it is.... & that's successful.

Same thing about Reggie... you & "the media" said he'd make an impact from day 1...... that's not exactly how it went.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 01:58 PM
Well I've put Russell on a pedistle for sure. Agreed no one is bust proof. You can point to Robert Gallery and see that in spades. He had the numbers. He had the mechanics and quickness. The film and the combine said the guy should be as close to bust proof as you can get. There should of been no reason the guy should of busted. But he did. You can now point and say, you should never ever pick an OLT prospect with a high number one. Because...they will bust like Robert Gallery. Or you could say that the reward of getting a true OLT that can lock down that position is worth the risk of bring in five guys through the system and be sitting here five years down the road with out a soloution at OLT. What would have Bosseli ment to this franchise if the shoulder did come around ? What did the Jets pick of Furgeson and Mangold mean to the Jets in terms of setting up their draft now ? I mean acroding to your theory....picking guys against the heard is a no no. And the heard says you should never pick an interior guy high in the draft, especailly a center. A position who form most teams perspectives is an after thought. The Jets are in a position now to cherry pick the skill positions and draft o-lineman latter in the draft.
So now kats you posting that Russell has got all the makers that say he will bust out. 1. Has there been a prospect like this who throws the ball beter, i.e. tighter spiral, deeper than Russel. NO. 2. Has there been a QB lately who's throwing motion is as quick as effortless as Russell's. NO. The guy is by no means perfect. I don't know if the guy can be coached out of his flaws. What I do know is the guy has the hottest arm I've seen from a young prospect since Farve. I'm gambeling when I put him up there on that pedistle, that he can be coached out of his lazy feet. I'm gambeling that his non-chalant attidtude on short and medium routes are boredom not a curled lip. He does have lazy feet sometimes. He miss reads palys sometimes. But after watching his main weapon this senior bowl pratice week, might of been frustration more than anything else. Gotta get old putting the ball on a guys numbers only to see it flutter hramleesly to the ground. I'm puting that, the lazy feet and missing guys on routes, down to inexperence not a mental deffecientcy. Could Russel bust out. Sure he could. My money says the guy is so rare a prospect that just like Gallery, someone is going to over look the markers and take the guy high. Very high. If Al holds service, and Detroit is sold on Joe Thomas, will get to see which of us is correct. Cleveland and Tampa Bay won't throw him back into the pile...and neither will the Texans. Can't argue with you how many angles can dance on the head of a pin. What I will say is the guy won't make it past the eight pick. Kubiack won't pass on an Elway prospect. Irregaudless of the cap impilcations if he's there at eight Kubiak has seen all he needs to see out of DC. I dunno and I aint in the loop. JMHO. Russel is the kind of prospect that you build you team around for a NFL generation. He may fail. But he won't fall. Book it.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 01:59 PM
out of curiosity.... have you ever disagreed with the "media" about a pick?? who has it, and who doesn't?? or do you just follow the company line??

I ask, because they, and you were wrong about Vince. I know it's early, but you & "the media" said he wouldn't be ready for years to come, and if he proved anything at all in '06, it's that he is ready. He's not polished by any means, he isn't a prolific passer..... but he's shown that he can play his game at this level. You might not like his game, but it is what it is.... & that's successful.

Same thing about Reggie... you & "the media" said he'd make an impact from day 1...... that's not exactly how it went.
oh man, tell me about it, the media never thought young would be great, no one in the media ever said he won the rose bowl all by himself, no one in the media ever said he was this super amazing talent, of course not, noooo, everyone thought he was a failure, blah blah blah. give me a break. the media is slobbering all over russell right now just as much as they were vince young last year. there were only like a handful of people in "THE MEDIA" that didnt think young was some ultra-amazing rare quarterback.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 02:12 PM
I think you are just looking for a fight. Russell lost 3 games. He had 10 4th quarter comebacks. Don't dig yourself this hole. You don't want this egg on your face.
to hell with voicing opinions!

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 02:20 PM
out of curiosity.... have you ever disagreed with the "media" about a pick?? who has it, and who doesn't?? or do you just follow the company line??

I ask, because they, and you were wrong about Vince. I know it's early, but you & "the media" said he wouldn't be ready for years to come, and if he proved anything at all in '06, it's that he is ready. He's not polished by any means, he isn't a prolific passer..... but he's shown that he can play his game at this level. You might not like his game, but it is what it is.... & that's successful.

Same thing about Reggie... you & "the media" said he'd make an impact from day 1...... that's not exactly how it went.

At 52% no one is wrong about Vincent just yet. You sallowed the hook. Not those of us are still waiting for VY to mature. If he's got a small window, every throw is going to be an adventuer with Vincent. A lot of us said Vick would bust too. If it wasn't for the cap, Vick would be out the door in Atlanta. Gonna be interesting to see which way Fischer jumps on the question. You're assuming that Vincent is going to improve markedly the coming seasons.
From my tree that question is far from a done deal as you can get. Untill he improves his passing, VY is a loose cannon. Has been for eight years. My book says that will never change. He may win a super bowl one day with his legs. Maybe. Up to you to decide in the future if that was worth a three and fifty million. No scambling QB has ever won the super bowl. Vincent does it that will make him a HOFer for sure. We'll see.

real
01-25-2007, 02:28 PM
there were only like a handful of people in "THE MEDIA" that didnt think young was some ultra-amazing rare quarterback.

I don't know about that...

Most of what I heard about VY was how Leinart and Cutler were better...

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 02:32 PM
I don't know about that...

Most of what I heard about VY was how Leinart and Cutler were better...
leinart, i'll give you. but cutler? very few even mentioned his name with young or leinart. VERY few. let alone say he was better than either one.

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 02:42 PM
At 52% no one is wrong about Vincent just yet.

You've been saying this for weeks if not months... around 50% is what is expected out of a rookie QB... the numbers bear it out. He won the ROY for a reason, he was voted a Pro-Bowl alternate for a reason, throw away that stat. It means nothing. Nearly everyone, including the biggest optimists was proven wrong by Vince. No one expected them to be 8-5 as a starter with the worst D in the NFL. No one expected him to do what he did in Houston or Buffalo or against NY. I certainly didn't expect him to have the 2nd highest rush average in the NFL and to get first downs at will.

So save the "Vince hasn't proven anybody wrong yet" thing... he threw the ball as well as is expected of an NFL rookie and a lot better than some all time greats did as rookies.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 02:49 PM
Had my say, and yes untill he does it, moves his passing effeintcy into water walker status, yes I'll keep posting it. The fact that it agrovates you so...means there IS a ring of truth in it. JMHO. We'll see. I'm gonna have my say though. You want to scouch out there on that limb with him fine by me. I'm not going to just let it go. Not yet. I got a fact. You got the love. We'll see.

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 02:57 PM
Had my say, and yes untill he does it, moves his paaing effeintcy into water walker status, yes I'll keep posting it. The fact that it agrovates you so...means there IS a ring of truth in it. JMHO. We'll see. I'm gonna have my say though. You want to scough out there on that limb with him fine by me. I'm not going to just let it go. Not yet. I got a fact. You got the love. We'll see.

Your fact means nothing when taken out of context and thrown against the wall. It aggravates me, because you've been repeating it incessantly, and you haven't taken the time to consider the context. I'm not out on a limb when I say "VY has exceeded expectations"... I'm just willing to debate things comparatively and objectively.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 03:09 PM
"That" was a vailed personel attack. I can take it. I understand you guys love the guy. I do too. I'm not going to swallow the hook.

How are you going to argue comparatively on a scambleing QB Toro ? Just have to wait on season II. If i'm wrong he posts high twenty in his passing I'll be the first one to get on here and worship at the VY alter with ya. He hasn't done "it" yet. He can run though that's for sure. He's a running fool.


Just go along with the herd there huh ? Ok Toro just for you...I won't post anythign on VY agian untill next fall. OK ?

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 03:15 PM
"That" was a vailed personel attack. I can take it. I understand you guys love the guy. I do too. I'm not going to swallow the hook.

How are you going to argue comparatively on a scambleing QB Toro ? Just have to wait on season II. If i'm wrong he posts high twenty in his passing I'll be the first one to get on here and worship at the VY alter with ya. He hasn't done "it" yet. He can run though that's for sure. He's a running fool.

Well if anything it means you should cut him more slack for putting up passing numbers comparable to guys who don't have another dimension, much less can run for 7 ypc and 7 TDs.

Mr. White
01-25-2007, 03:18 PM
No scambling QB has ever won the super bowl.

Signed,

John Elway

mexican_texan
01-25-2007, 03:21 PM
Signed,

John Elway
As well as Steve Young.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 03:24 PM
Signed,

John Elway

Elway quit scambling long befor that game. Farve too. He did scramble for a TD that game....and almost got killed. That, in my mind was more of a fuction of had to, rather than want to. After two tries, Elway was willing to scrafice his body for his team. At that point in his career, Elway had learned. There are old QBs and there are bold QBs but there are no old bold QBs in the NFL. Next ? Howabout Tarkington ?

DomDavis
01-25-2007, 03:24 PM
LSU should've actually won more games with the talent they have. his resume should look a lot more like matt leinart's than jason white's.

Sorry - Matt Leinart didn't have to play at Florida, at Auburn, at Arkansas and at Tennessee all in the same season. That was a brutal schedule.

Oh, and I still haven't heard one legit source that Russell doesn't have a strong work ethic. I'm still waiting.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 03:33 PM
At 52% no one is wrong about Vincent just yet. You sallowed the hook. Not those of us are still waiting for VY to mature. If he's got a small window, every throw is going to be an adventuer with Vincent. A lot of us said Vick would bust too. If it wasn't for the cap, Vick would be out the door in Atlanta. Gonna be interesting to see which way Fischer jumps on the question. You're assuming that Vincent is going to improve markedly the coming seasons.
From my tree that question is far from a done deal as you can get. Untill he improves his passing, VY is a loose cannon. Has been for eight years. My book says that will never change. He may win a super bowl one day with his legs. Maybe. Up to you to decide in the future if that was worth a three and fifty million. No scambling QB has ever won the super bowl. Vincent does it that will make him a HOFer for sure. We'll see.

My point was that they said he wouldn't be ready for years..... that it would be 2 years minimum before he'd be ready to step on a field, and 4 years before he could impact the outcome of games. They were wrong. He is ready... & he is doing the things in the pros, that they said he wouldn't be able too..... all the while, saying Reggie Bush would have no problems doing the things he did in college. That faster LBs, faster DEs would make it harder for Vince to do his thing, where they would not affect Reggie at all. The way things turned out, Reggie needed time to adjust, more time than Vince did. I might be wrong, but I think Vince had his first rushing TD in the first game he started.

Will Vince win a SuperBowl?? will he make it to the ProBowl?? will he become an elite passer in the NFL?? I don't know......... but Vince has proven that he is as concerned about improving his game as much as anyone could. He's worked on his game every offseason in College, and it showed from year to year. I expect him to continue working on his game....... I don't know why anyone wouldn't. He has a desire to be one of the best....... he's not doing it just for the money..... he's driven by something deeper, and it shows.


Your annoyance of such things only shows to prove that you see some truth in what I'm saying. So go on, continue with your denial... He's proven people like you wrong his entire life........ no reason to think he'll stop now.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 03:48 PM
Super Bowl XXXI

Farve rushing 4 for 12 yards

Bldesoe 1 for 1

xXXII

Farve 0 for 0 yards
Elway - 5 for 17 10(longest) 1 TD

Yeah Elway was a running scrambling fool that day alright.

xXXIII

Elway 3 for 2 3(long) 1 TD
Chandler 0 FOR 0

SB XXIV

Young 4 6 11 0
Elway 26 10 108 0

oops passing totals. Here's his rushing totals
Elway 4 8 3t 1


XXIII
Montana 4 13 11 0


That's enough of that bull corn. Look it up for yourselves:
http://superbowl.com/history/boxscores

No scambling QB has ever won a super bowl. Period.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 03:54 PM
this thread started with redneck bilge. this place is overrun by that.
?
Oh, and I still haven't heard one legit source that Russell doesn't have a strong work ethic. I'm still waiting.
chris landry has a pretty strong opinion about it.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 03:59 PM
That's enough of that bull corn. Look it up for yourselves:
http://superbowl.com/history/boxscores

No scambling QB has ever won a super bowl. Period.

It's just part of their game..... To deny Elway was at one time a scrambling QB, or that both Montana & Young were for most of their careers is borderline delirious.

Right now, to keep his team on the field, he has to pick up first downs with his legs. soon, he'll learn to scramble & keep plays alive, crossing the LOS only when he has to. Just like he did in College.

Just like McNabb has done in recent history.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 03:59 PM
My point was that they said he wouldn't be ready for years..... that it would be 2 years minimum before he'd be ready to step on a field, and 4 years before he could impact the outcome of games. They were wrong. He is ready... & he is doing the things in the pros, that they said he wouldn't be able too..... all the while, saying Reggie Bush would have no problems doing the things he did in college. That faster LBs, faster DEs would make it harder for Vince to do his thing, where they would not affect Reggie at all. The way things turned out, Reggie needed time to adjust, more time than Vince did. I might be wrong, but I think Vince had his first rushing TD in the first game he started.

Will Vince win a SuperBowl?? will he make it to the ProBowl?? will he become an elite passer in the NFL?? I don't know......... but Vince has proven that he is as concerned about improving his game as much as anyone could.


He still throws as he always has. THAT is the point. He can not change that aspect of his game. And never will be able to.



He's worked on his game every offseason in College, and it showed from year to year.

There has been no marked improvement in two years. And again that is the point. The projections you are making are just that projections. Nothing more.

I expect him to continue working on his game....... I don't know why anyone wouldn't. He has a desire to be one of the best....... he's not doing it just for the money..... he's driven by something deeper, and it shows.

This is a guess by you. History shows that you are wrong.


Your annoyance of such things only shows to prove that you see some truth in what I'm saying. So go on, continue with your denial... He's proven people like you wrong his entire life........ no reason to think he'll stop now.

Someone is floating in denile alright and it isn't me. You guys love him. I accept the reaching on projections on him. Ok if I actually see him do it ? I'm not annoyed. Not frustrated. I can wait. That was the last Torro I promise.

dirty steve
01-25-2007, 04:02 PM
?

chris landry has a pretty strong opinion about it.
I'll give it to Kast for presenting a dissenting opinion on what alot of the brethren think of Russell in this forum. As being one of the few posters who puts his scouting and opinion of college game in general out there I'll listen to him over somebody that criticizes him blindly. I wouldnt know for sure if Russell is going to be a great player or a goat, but it sure is nice to hear opinions other than the party line.

leachmtb
01-25-2007, 04:08 PM
Man, you guys are all pretty ridiculous. How did this turn into a VY post? Why does everyone talk about VY? Yeah, he's exceeded expectations. What the hell are expectations anyway? Woopty doo, he did a good job. So what if people said that he was going to do a bad job. Stop trying rub everyones face in it when you have somehow expected the right thing to happen.

Are you an NFL Scout, are you paid to be right about these types of evaluations? No. Then give it a rest. It's all speculation. I too have a feeling that JaMarcus is not going to be that good. Cutler got way more attention than JaMarcus did this semester. No one in the SEC really talked that much about him other than his arm strength. And, no matter what their brutal schedule was, everyone has said that LSU was hands down the most talented SEC team. JaMarcus may be good, but I agree with Kastofna (or however you spell it). The fact that he said he just wants to go to the team that picks highest and gives the most money is a pretty big tell, but I have been wrong before, and so have all of you.

So, VY fans, give it a rest. (I never said anything about VY and his abilities, so don't come after me either). There are always going to be naysayers, so why can't any of you actually stay on topic with what the post is. This is about JaMarcus Russel. He has all of the physical tools to be great. I don't know anything about his work ethic either way, but I do know that anybody willing to say publicly that he wants to go somewhere where he'll get paid the most is not really looking at what is best for any city or their fans.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 04:10 PM
To deny Elway was at one time a scrambling QB, or that both Montana & Young were for most of their careers is borderline delirious.
of course it's delirious, and of course he didn't say that. he said the exact opposite in fact, that they WERE scramblers UNTIL they played at a high enough level to win a super bowl. those are the facts.

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 04:15 PM
He still throws as he always has. THAT is the point. He can not change that aspect of his game. And never will be able to.

There has been no marked improvement in two years.

Huh? The guy progressed from average QB in 2004 to leading the NCAA in passing efficiency in 2005. He held his own in 2006 in the NFL.

I thought we were past this.

dirty steve
01-25-2007, 04:25 PM
Huh? The guy progressed from average QB in 2004 to leading the NCAA in passing efficiency in 2005. He held his own in 2006 in the NFL.

I thought we were past this.
Not to burst a bubble, but I think we have all seen what an illusion QB Rating or effenciency quotas can be a bit misleading in comparison to what is being produced on the field. Not hating on Russell, but just something to consider.

run-david-run
01-25-2007, 04:28 PM
I don't know about that...

Most of what I heard about VY was how Leinart and Cutler were better...

I distinctly remember the media saying VY had the most upside of any player, but also some bust potential.

Dr. Toro
01-25-2007, 04:29 PM
Not to burst a bubble, but I think we have all seen what an illusion QB Rating or effenciency quotas can be a bit misleading in comparison to what is being produced on the field. Not hating on Russell, but just something to consider.

That's in response to VY hate... not in reference to Russell... which is a good point... this is a Jamarcus Russell thread.

Hookem Horns
01-25-2007, 04:32 PM
The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

So why were you so down on VY last season? His work ethic speaks for itself and always has.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 04:42 PM
I don't hate Vincent. I realy, realy, realy don't.I like the guy a lot. But I'm not going to sip the Jim Jones Koolaide with ya. No way. I see what I see, that's all. I'm not preppaired to go running off the cliff with you guys that's all. If his passing doesn't improve, he's just another traget waiting to get struck. You can only run so long in this league. And that there thing is the truth.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 05:05 PM
of course it's delirious, and of course he didn't say that. he said the exact opposite in fact, that they WERE scramblers UNTIL they played at a high enough level to win a super bowl. those are the facts.

I'll agree.. that Vince will not win a Super Bowl if he doesn't improve in passing... & if his biggest threat are his legs.....

All the VY lovers expect him to improve his passing just like all those guys did. He worked on his passing prior to his freshman year, his sophomore year, his junior year, and it showed. He put up some very good numbers as a passer his junior year, completion %, passing effieciency, QB Rating, passing TDs..... & still proved to be a rushing threat.

He worked on his passing game, working with pro QB trainers before his rookie season, and it showed.... calm, & comfortable under center..... understanding defenses, and not only did he not hurt his teams chance of winning, but he was a big part of his teams winning. Even on the defensive side of the ball, they talked about how he was their inspiration to put it all on the line.

maybe I shouldn't talk for all the VY lovers, but I expect him to be alot like McNabb........ only better.

Champ
01-25-2007, 05:17 PM
If you didn't notice JaMarcus Russell until the Sugar Bowl then clearly you know nothing about college football. You seem like a person who only watches the NFL and pays attention to college only near draft time and then only pay attention to the players who have gotten hype all year long.

You're knocking Russell because he said he wants to play for the team who offers the most money. Well you should take into account that Russell's uncle Ray Ray who raised him in a fatherly way because his real dad wasn't around needs a heart transplant. Maybe you should cut him alittle slack.

8 4th quater comebacks 7 of which the final two minutes or overtime 6 of which against top 25 teams. Back to back 11-2 seasons in the SEC back to back top 5 finishes and a Sugar Bowl victory. His 3 WR's with each 50+ receptions. He's only a Junior had he come back he would be a Heisman frontruner and LSU would be ranked #1.

Only two teams he lost to this year were Florida(this years national champs) and Auburn(Only team to beat Florida this year) a game which the refs screwed LSU. Last year he beat them both. Only LSU QB to ever beat Auburn,Florida and Alabama all in the same year. You think it's easy playing on the road against top 10 SEC defences? You think Brady Quinn would have done better?

His production increased from year to year and from game to game. Clearly he has potential. You're basing your whole judgement on frickin' Chris Landry like he's never been wrong. Why don't you go ask other scouts what they think of him. Why don't you go ask the Manning family.

He hasn't even been to the combine or even played a pre season game yet and you're lableing him a bust.

Once he produces in the pros you should resign from posting cause clearly your evaluations are a prototypical bust.

Champ
01-25-2007, 05:20 PM
Here's a good assesment from a poster on nlfdraftcountdown.com



Chris Landry is a good scout, but that said, he also has his own biases as evidenced from his track record. Certainly a useful opinion to have, but making it the end all and be all wouldn't exactly be fair.
_________________

I think Jamarcus is one of the best values in this draft. After spending a lot of time going over his last few weeks of the year, if he can maintain the continued progress, the upside is great and he is deserving of a high pick. Doesn't mean he'll succeed, but that he's deserving of it. Why?

What are the knocks against him? I don't know about this lazy thing that Chris Landry argued for. All the indications point to Jamarcus as a hard worker. So, he might've missed some classes (and LSU contested that)? A lot of people miss classes in college, but more significantly, he probably made his decision already, as it was thought in December that he was going pro. If you've made your decision, you might as well focus on what's next.

All evidence points to him as a good learner. There's been commentary from coaches along those lines, but obviously, coaches have biases. But even the steady anecdotal evidence of continued growth each year, and within this year, should be some indication alone. The tools are obviously all there. Let's look past the arm strength for a second. Find me a guy who has his mechanics, his field awareness, maintaining his vision downfield. ANd his mechanics aren't stiff ... which would be a problem in translatable skills. They are good mechanics, but fluid mechanics. And that snap ... Cutler was good, and I loved Cutler, but Russell's snap is arguably the best in all of football right now. Yes, that snap is arguably better than Tom Brady's, who's got one of the best in the NFL.

So, what are the real problems? The decision-making and consistency could stand to improve. There are times when he forces the issue because of his tools, and there are times when he seems hesitant. His overall football IQ is solid, but a little more work and film study with a QB coach spending all the time with him could take him another step.

THere's no guarantee of success in the NFL when assessing things, but I fully believe that Jamarcus is a solid top 10 pick in any year, and likely a top 5 pick in any year, and is also worthy of the top selection this year if a team opts to go that route.

threetoedpete
01-25-2007, 05:26 PM
Well I guess that settled it huh. Thread killer.

Nawzer
01-25-2007, 06:43 PM
We don't have to worry about JaMarcus Russell being a bust. Unless something unforseen happens he'll be a bust for someother team. But we'll know more about Russell as the weeks and months roll along. He should still be in the top 5 when all said and done.

dirty steve
01-25-2007, 06:53 PM
That's in response to VY hate... not in reference to Russell... which is a good point... this is a Jamarcus Russell thread.

Funny how people cant get off VY, because I was talking about Carr and his QB/passer Rating this year and the subsequent result on the field.
BTW--just because somebody doesnt think the world of tenn-tenn doesnt mean they are a hater.

it's really hard to tell where he will go inside the top 5. The Emperor likes the long bomber, but is rumored to be against taking QB's in the first round. I think he goes to Oakland and has to throw passes to all those disinterested WR's.

thunderkyss
01-25-2007, 07:13 PM
All things considered..... IMHO Calvin Johnson is the most talented player in this draft..... he should be the consensus #1.

Of course I'm just getting to know most of these players, but I think CJ is the only true #1 so far.

kastofsna
01-25-2007, 07:19 PM
So why were you so down on VY last season? His work ethic speaks for itself and always has.
i never doubted his strong work ethic. it's not that i look at a player's work ethic as the main reason for thinking they'll be good or bad.
If you didn't notice JaMarcus Russell until the Sugar Bowl then clearly you know nothing about college football. You seem like a person who only watches the NFL and pays attention to college only near draft time and then only pay attention to the players who have gotten hype all year long.
not true at all. i've known about him since high school. i'm more referring to his stock reaching top 10 status because of one game. and for the record, i actually predicted this a few months ago. i had the texans drafting him in my mock draft a WHILE ago. i'm sure some people here remember it.

Ole Miss Texan
01-25-2007, 07:38 PM
i never doubted his strong work ethic. it's not that i look at a player's work ethic as the main reason for thinking they'll be good or bad.

not true at all. i've known about him since high school. i'm more referring to his stock reaching top 10 status because of one game. and for the record, i actually predicted this a few months ago. i had the texans drafting him in my mock draft a WHILE ago. i'm sure some people here remember it.

I remember you suggesting that when most thought he would be a 2nd round pick. Most people here, including me, thought you were reaching. Boy do things change...

DocBar
01-25-2007, 10:36 PM
Ryan Leaf. Tim Couch. Akili Smith. Andre Ware. Jeff George. Heath Shuler.

Some big name busts in recent NFL history. Lots of pre-draft buzz, created by some big games in college, some impressive workouts, but mostly just hype.

Strong arms, but not the greatest decision-makers. Quickly learned a simplified college offense, but struggled with a complicated pro offense with huge playbooks and a lot more reads.

The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become. Some of these guys didn't have the best work ethic just because of their personalities. Leaf and Couch were pretty aloof guys, and Smith had some problems there, too. You CAN'T succeed at the next level if you think you can get away with some of the things you do in college, simple as that. Then you have guys like Shuler who combined all of that with the fact that he held out for his entire initial training camp. That's not going to end well.

Onto JaMarcus Russell. He fits the mold. Almost perfectly. Strong arm, but not the best decisions on the field. Some good games throughout his career, but nothing spectacular. No one even considered him a top prospect till one game against a very weak Notre Dame defense, a game where he had several questionable throws, including an interception thrown into triple coverage. His work ethic has been questioned for a while now, as well as his general non-chalant attitude towards the team. When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

Believe in the "here after"? $$$ is what WE'RE ALL "here after". I've heard nothing of poor work ethic about JR. He made a few questionable throws in college, but I don't think it was an outrageous amount. Lokk at BQ. Mr. Heisman didn't make the best decisions I've ever seen in some of his games.
Oh, I forgot the time of year. Everyone is looking for the next "Bowie/Jordan" fiasco.

Texan_Aggie222
01-25-2007, 11:23 PM
Wow, thats a lot of harsh judgment there for a QB that you haven't seen work out yet or be interviewed or even play in his first NFL game. Every QB was the potential to be a bust, and also a star. Its just what you make out of that potential. You can't label that person a bust until he actually has time to work with what he is given.

sgntxnfn
01-26-2007, 03:38 AM
This thread is absolutely ridiculous. You, Kastofsna, are full of yourself. As Texan Aggie 222 said, he hasn't played an NFL game yet...I personally think that when the games are played, JaMarcus will prove he's better than pretty boy Quinn, as he has already proved in the Sugar Bowl. You act as if you are God. Let's just watch what happens.

swtbound07
01-26-2007, 04:12 AM
the reason vince young is relevant in a jamarcus russell thread is that kastofsna has a history of looking foolish when prognosticating about a quarterback predraft. He was spouting drivel about young last year like "I'll bet you anything no team touches vince in the top 10" and "Young will probably fall to the second round". He will also make a prediction on about every side of the fence, so he can quote the one post of his that is right and say he knew it all along. The strongest indication that Russell will be an NFL success is that Kasty thinks he will bust. I don't think kastofsna could accurately predict what color the sky is or what he will have for breakfast tomorrow.

and just for grins, some classic kasty quotes from last year

i have never been wrong about anyone. ever

MJG is a future hall of famer. book it. i don't care what system he's in. he'll be one of those larry allen-esque lock-for-the-pro-bowl-every-year-even-when-he-sucks players.

leinart is the best player in the draft.

cutler is going #3 or #4.

the titans won't want young.

cutler is going in the top 4. titans or jets.

several former players like cutler most out of the top 3. i think a lot of teams agree with them.

it's either the titans or jets for leinart, folks.

nice draft for tennessee. managed to get the two most overrated players in the draft in the first two rounds..

no need to worry. he'll be a bust and will be out of the league in 3 to 4 years. (about vince young)

Mr Shush
01-26-2007, 09:00 AM
Research by Football Outsiders' David Lewin suggests that the college stats which do the best job of projecting a highly drafted (round 1 or 2) quarterback's pro career are starts and completion percentage. Russell's career completion percentage is 61.9%. That includes his first season in the team, when it was 50.7%; last year it was up to 67.8%. He also started a pretty respectable number of games. I believe I'm right in saying that no first round quarterback with a completion percentage for his college career above 60% has ever been a bust in the NFL. I'd feel happier about Russell if he'd stayed in college for another season (pocket quarterbacks should always stay for their senior year), and as a rookie, coming from a great college team to a horrible NFL side - possibly even the Raiders - he might be in for a very rough ride indeed at first. Russell will be at the very least a decent NFL quarterback, and has a good chance to be much more (especially if he manages to stay out of Oakland).

kastofsna
01-26-2007, 09:06 AM
Wow, thats a lot of harsh judgment there for a QB that you haven't seen work out yet or be interviewed or even play in his first NFL game. Every QB was the potential to be a bust, and also a star. Its just what you make out of that potential. You can't label that person a bust until he actually has time to work with what he is given.
ya see, that's the whole point. i'm looking at him as a player and individual and the history of other QB's like him and he projects to be a bust. PROJECTS.

Lucky
01-26-2007, 09:13 AM
I'm not sure why people are so concerned about kastofsna's opinion. He's made his case, let the record stand for itself. No one gets it right on every player. No one.

BTW, here's what Pete Carroll said (http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070125/SPORTS04/701250346/1002/sports) in regards to who his former assistant, new Raider head coach Lane Kiffen, might take with the first pick:

Carroll hinted at who he expects the Raiders to select with the first pick of the NFL Draft. He said that Kiffin prefers a vertical passing offense that suits LSU quarterback JaMarcus Russell better than Notre Dame quarterback Brady Quinn.

"The kid from LSU is exactly what they're looking for," Carroll said, "more so than the kid from Notre Dame."

beerlover
01-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Of all the positions in football QB is the hardest by far to grade, I doubt anyone on this board is capable or has the ability to PROJECT how well a player will do in the league otherwise they would be working for some NFL team right now :logo:

kastofsna
01-26-2007, 10:24 AM
I'm not sure why people are so concerned about kastofsna's opinion. He's made his case, let the record stand for itself. No one gets it right on every player. No one.

BTW, here's what Pete Carroll said (http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070125/SPORTS04/701250346/1002/sports) in regards to who his former assistant, new Raider head coach Lane Kiffen, might take with the first pick:
kiffin has about as much of a say in who the raiders pick as you or i do.

Lucky
01-26-2007, 10:28 AM
kiffin has about as much of a say in who the raiders pick as you or i do.

And Al Davis doesn't favor a vertical passing game? The reason he brought Kiffen in was to tutor a young QB. That's pretty obvious to most.

kastofsna
01-26-2007, 10:29 AM
And Al Davis doesn't favor a vertical passing game? The reason he brought Kiffen in was to tutor a young QB. That's pretty obvious to most.
and they already have that young QB.

there's nothing "obvious" about this hire. the only thing that's "obvious" is the way al davis has done things for 40+ years. JUST WIN, BABY. not JUST REBUILD, BABY.

Kaiser Toro
01-26-2007, 10:51 AM
Will someone please take the literal shovel out of his virtual hands.

Texian
01-26-2007, 11:19 AM
kiffin has about as much of a say in who the raiders pick as you or i do.

I think the pick has already been decided and they picked Kiffin to go with the pick.

kastofsna
01-26-2007, 11:34 AM
yep, kiffin will do great with calvin johnson.

Second Honeymoon
01-26-2007, 11:49 AM
Ryan Leaf. Tim Couch. Akili Smith. Andre Ware. Jeff George. Heath Shuler.

Some big name busts in recent NFL history. Lots of pre-draft buzz, created by some big games in college, some impressive workouts, but mostly just hype.

Strong arms, but not the greatest decision-makers. Quickly learned a simplified college offense, but struggled with a complicated pro offense with huge playbooks and a lot more reads.

The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become. Some of these guys didn't have the best work ethic just because of their personalities. Leaf and Couch were pretty aloof guys, and Smith had some problems there, too. You CAN'T succeed at the next level if you think you can get away with some of the things you do in college, simple as that. Then you have guys like Shuler who combined all of that with the fact that he held out for his entire initial training camp. That's not going to end well.

Onto JaMarcus Russell. He fits the mold. Almost perfectly. Strong arm, but not the best decisions on the field. Some good games throughout his career, but nothing spectacular. No one even considered him a top prospect till one game against a very weak Notre Dame defense, a game where he had several questionable throws, including an interception thrown into triple coverage. His work ethic has been questioned for a while now, as well as his general non-chalant attitude towards the team. When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

Please add David Carr to that list of prototypical busts...he is the prototype of prototypical busts. No list of busts can be complete without him on the list.

kastofsna
01-26-2007, 11:59 AM
Please add David Carr to that list of prototypical busts...he is the prototype of prototypical busts. No list of busts can be complete without him on the list.
i dunno, he doesn't have that "weird" personality thing. i.e. yelling at the media or fans or getting caught doing weird things at 3 in the morning. he's just a bust, lol.

Huge
01-26-2007, 12:13 PM
of course it's delirious, and of course he didn't say that. he said the exact opposite in fact, that they WERE scramblers UNTIL they played at a high enough level to win a super bowl. those are the facts.
Actually, the facts are the Elway had 50 rushes the season he won his first Super Bowl. That's only 16 fewer then his career high for a season and 2 more than what he averaged each season for his career.

Honestly though, I share kastofsna's opinion about Russell. I'm a fan of the guy and like watching him play. But I just don't see him making it in this league. Especially if he goes to a team like Oakland.

'Course, I also feel the same way about Brady Quinn. So we can go back to disagreeing about most things.

Dr. Toro
01-26-2007, 12:29 PM
Kast, I respect your opinion and your conviction... but I'm not sure how objectively you're willing to re-asess your own views. You've been talking about Al refusing to draft a QB in the first, about his insistence on never rebuilding... but just take a stroll with me down logic lane:

The Raiders have a decent WR corps with Moss (if he cares), Curry, and Porter (if he's behaving). Rookie WRs generally take a full year or two to start producing to potential... Moss was an exception, CJ may be an exception. Of the top NFL receivers right now, few of them had the rookie success that is expected of #1 picks. These guys took a while to start ballin like All-Pros.

Chad Johnson: Year 2
Marvin Harrison: Year 4
Reggie Wayne: Year 4
Roy Williams: Year 3
Donald Driver: Year 4
Lee Evans: Year 3
Anquan Boldin: Rookie year
Torry Holt: Year 2
TO: Year 3
Steve Smith: Year 3
Andre Johnson: Rookie year
Larry Fitzgerald: Year 2

Now I know CJ is a better prospect than all these guys (Williams, Holt, Fitzgerald, and Johnson are close) but Colston (projected TE) and Boldin (converted QB) were the most productive rookie receivers in recent memory and few people expected anything out of them.

Clearly, QB talent is a MUCH bigger concern than WR play for the Raiders. It's also highly probable that Russell throwing to Moss, Porter, Curry, and/or a 2nd rounder would be MUCH more productive than Andrew Walter throwing to CJ and whoever else stays around. So if all Davis wants is immediate production... why not Russell? See where I'm going?

Along the same lines... you've got some bird in your ear, telling you Russell is lazy. Yet there are a number of people in the know refuting this... maybe he looks lazy on tape... maybe things just come easy... the bottom line is the guy has a monster arm, quick release, and enormous size. He put up fantastic numbers in the SEC, regardless of what you think of ND. Dude is a beast... for him to be a bust, he needs to be even lazier than Vick... there's no way you know that for a fact.

Edit: Russell is out in Arizona with Percy Knox training for the draft.

Texan_Aggie222
01-26-2007, 08:20 PM
ya see, that's the whole point. i'm looking at him as a player and individual and the history of other QB's like him and he projects to be a bust. PROJECTS.

Like Daunte Culpepper? Disregarding his recent problem with injuries, I think he is a pretty decent QB at the least, but thats just my opinion..........

sgntxnfn
01-27-2007, 04:56 AM
Oops, looking back i kinda over-reacted about the difference in opinion.

Maddict5
03-16-2010, 08:24 PM
Ryan Leaf. Tim Couch. Akili Smith. Andre Ware. Jeff George. Heath Shuler.

Some big name busts in recent NFL history. Lots of pre-draft buzz, created by some big games in college, some impressive workouts, but mostly just hype.

Strong arms, but not the greatest decision-makers. Quickly learned a simplified college offense, but struggled with a complicated pro offense with huge playbooks and a lot more reads.

The biggest thing they all have in common: no work ethic. Just not willing to put in the work needed to become the franchise player they were thought to one day become. Some of these guys didn't have the best work ethic just because of their personalities. Leaf and Couch were pretty aloof guys, and Smith had some problems there, too. You CAN'T succeed at the next level if you think you can get away with some of the things you do in college, simple as that. Then you have guys like Shuler who combined all of that with the fact that he held out for his entire initial training camp. That's not going to end well.

Onto JaMarcus Russell. He fits the mold. Almost perfectly. Strong arm, but not the best decisions on the field. Some good games throughout his career, but nothing spectacular. No one even considered him a top prospect till one game against a very weak Notre Dame defense, a game where he had several questionable throws, including an interception thrown into triple coverage. His work ethic has been questioned for a while now, as well as his general non-chalant attitude towards the team. When asked who he wants to play for, he said "Whoever picks first and whoever pays the most." Not exactly what you'd want to hear from a potential franchise QB.

I liked Vince Young as a prospect a lot more than Russell. And a lot of you know my feelings on Young pre-draft last year. I've never seen a more obvious QB bust in my life.

things that go BUMP in the night.....

tried to give you rep but couldnt..... nailed it