PDA

View Full Version : Brady VS Manning


stingray
01-14-2007, 07:46 PM
Who is the Best QB in the League? It's between these two. I think it's Brady. He just finds a way to win. They remind me of Montana Vs Marino. One had all the Stats but the Other had the Rings. What do you guys think?

kastofsna
01-14-2007, 07:52 PM
brady.

Trap_Star
01-14-2007, 07:59 PM
I rather say its Belichick vs Manning....

shinerbock_girl
01-14-2007, 08:01 PM
Who is the Best QB in the League? It's between these two. I think it's Brady. He just finds a way to win. They remind me of Montana Vs Marino. One had all the Stats but the Other had the Rings. What do you guys think?

I agree, Brady just finds ways to win..

run-david-run
01-14-2007, 08:05 PM
I agree, Brady just finds ways to win..

Having a LT that can dominate Shawn Merriman and an offensive line that keeps the top sack team in the league at bay certanly helps. Mcree gave the Pats that win with the fumble.

torontooilfan
01-14-2007, 08:06 PM
Doesn't matter.

Both teams nauseate me. Manning nauseates me a tad more, so I'll root for the frickin Pats, then pray that the NFC wins against all odds in three weeks.

stingray
01-14-2007, 08:07 PM
Having a LT that can dominate Shawn Merriman and an offensive line that keeps the top sack team in the league at bay certanly helps. Mcree gave the Pats that win with the fumble.

I agree at some level with your statement, but overall, the Chargers are more talented and have the Best Running Back in the League. But i never thought that the Patriots were out of it. It just seemed that Brady would pull it out someway, somehow.

J-Storm
01-15-2007, 05:20 AM
I'd take Brady in a heartbeat and not just 'cos of the SB rings. He has shown that you don't have to have great receivers around you or a total stud at RB like Tomlinson or Alexander (no offence to Corey Dillon). He just has a coaching staff with a great gameplan and a group of guys who are willing to put their bodies on the line 'cos they believe he can deliver them a win and who are willing to do the same for the coaching staff...

He has shown he can do what he did today in both the playoffs and the regular season is why I would take him over Manning. He just always seems super cool and never flustered (Memo: David Carr)!

kastofsna
01-15-2007, 07:22 AM
Having a LT that can dominate Shawn Merriman and an offensive line that keeps the top sack team in the league at bay certanly helps. Mcree gave the Pats that win with the fumble.
that's 1 out of 12 wins.

TheCD
01-15-2007, 08:53 AM
I'd say that in terms of pure talent, you have to go with Manning. He sees things that most QBs just don't. But in general, I have to choose Brady. He's done so much with so many different people that it's hard to say Manning's better with just having Harrison.

Honoring Earl 34
01-15-2007, 09:00 AM
Having a LT that can dominate Shawn Merriman and an offensive line that keeps the top sack team in the league at bay certanly helps. Mcree gave the Pats that win with the fumble.

I would'nt say they kept them at bay ... I thought that they hurried Brady all day . In the end it's what you do when the games on the line .

real
01-15-2007, 09:53 AM
I think Manning is a very talented QB, but give me the QB that has shown he can consistently make plays when they are needed most.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
01-15-2007, 10:03 AM
Manning is the better quarterback. Brady has the better all-around team. Should be an interesting game. Please don't hate me, but I'm rooting for the Colts. Just because I hate, make that HATE, HATE, HATE the Patriots!
(Did I mention that I hate the Patriots?)
When :pigfly: is the day I root for New England in anything.

Double Barrel
01-15-2007, 10:59 AM
Brady already has 24 4th qtr. comebacks in his career. Dude is just nails when it counts the most. Go Pats! (I hate the Colts)

Snapple
01-15-2007, 11:05 AM
The best QB in the NFL is whoever is the Texans' backup on any given year, m i rite?

Nawzer
01-15-2007, 11:13 AM
Tom Brady. No doubt. My favorite NFL player. Man just finds ways to win and put his team in position for the win. He still doesn't get the respect he deserves.

eriadoc
01-15-2007, 11:27 AM
If Manning had played on that Pats team for the past 6 years, do you think the Pats would still have won those Super Bowls?

If Brady had been the QB of the Colts with all those defenses, do you think the Colts would have taken the Patriots' place?

ROCKY
01-15-2007, 12:57 PM
As much as I hate to say it, this is Peyton's year. Brady is an AMAZING QB, he has proven to be one of the greatest ever to play the game. But the Patriotts have done this with smoke and mirrors. With a chance to go to the big game, exercise the patriots demon in front of his home crowd, and the chance to take the title from his daddy's team??? it's too perfect.

I have heard Archie tell stories about how embarrassed Peyton used to be, with the saints being losers at the time, he was taunted, and he was resentful of all the bs his dad took at the hands of the saints fans. This is where he comes full circle.

No-one expected this, it's voodoo vs destiny.

Now the saints and colts have to go out and make it happen, because a pats-bears matchup looks like crap.

blockhead83
01-15-2007, 01:01 PM
I'd say that in terms of pure talent, you have to go with Manning. He sees things that most QBs just don't. But in general, I have to choose Brady. He's done so much with so many different people that it's hard to say Manning's better with just having Harrison.

This is pretty close to my take. Manning has everything you look for in a QB, except the ability to win big games. Brady allows new england to neglect their skill positions and place more emphasis on defense because they can rely on Brady making something out of nothing every year. Manning's a HOF'er but he has had some of the best offensive players in the league helping him every year. If Manning can get it done and win a superbowl, then it'd be a very interesting debate.

run-david-run
01-15-2007, 01:36 PM
that's 1 out of 12 wins.

2nd ranked scoring D...and its 14 wins at this point. Brady is a great QB, but he is surrouned by possibly the best coaching staff, a very underrated defense, very good O-line, and the Pats historicaly get a little help from the refs when it matters. I think that if you swap Peyton and Brady's careers, then Manning would end up with the Superbowls and Brady would be the one holding the records because it takes a complete team to win a superbowl and the Colts have never really had that.

real
01-15-2007, 01:47 PM
2nd ranked scoring D...and its 14 wins at this point. Brady is a great QB, but he is surrouned by possibly the best coaching staff, a very underrated defense, very good O-line, and the Pats historicaly get a little help from the refs when it matters. I think that if you swap Peyton and Brady's careers, then Manning would end up with the Superbowls and Brady would be the one holding the records because it takes a complete team to win a superbowl and the Colts have never really had that.

How can you use that argument to prove who's better ?

You could flip what you're saying, and say Brady never had two pro-bowl recievers, and a pro-bowl running back so therefore he wasn't able to put up the gaudy stats that Manning has...

If you are judging who is better solely based on superbowl wins, then your argument has merit, because it takes a complete team to win a championship....but I don't see how that has much relevance when talking about which QB is better....

Double Barrel
01-15-2007, 02:31 PM
If Manning had played on that Pats team for the past 6 years, do you think the Pats would still have won those Super Bowls?


Nope (IMO).


If Brady had been the QB of the Colts with all those defenses, do you think the Colts would have taken the Patriots' place?

I think the Colts would have won at least one Super Bowl with Brady, IMO.

Brady had two game winning drives in the last two minutes of two of the three Super Bowls the Patriots won. Clutch.

The Dream
01-15-2007, 02:40 PM
I pray to Jesus, Allah, and Buddah that the Pats get their heads smashed in next weekend....I absolutely HATE that team and how they win.

real
01-15-2007, 02:44 PM
I would love to see Brady with four rings....

The Dream
01-15-2007, 02:53 PM
I would love to see Brady get the snot knocked out of him....he played like crap yesterday, but the curse of "Marty" came into effect once again...I hope Manning decides to show up next Sunday, because I'm sick of all the Pats find a way to win talk.

Double Barrel
01-15-2007, 02:55 PM
I would love to see Brady with four rings....

Me, too :ok:

For a QB that was told he was too small, too slow, too short, would never make it as an NFL starter, picked in the 6th round, I can't help but like the guy. He doesn't have "pedigree", but it doesn't matter when he's got nerves of steel and the heart of a champion.

And I like the fact of an NFL dynasty in the age of 'parity', when experts predicted that no team would ever have another dynasty again.

Stupid experts, wrong on both counts (Brady & NFL dynasties).

The Dream
01-15-2007, 02:57 PM
While I'll acknowledge that Brady IS a great QB, I still think the guy is "somewhat" overrated.

real
01-15-2007, 04:02 PM
While I'll acknowledge that Brady IS a great QB, I still think the guy is "somewhat" overrated.

I think he is what he is.......a QB that performs outstanding in the clutch...

I'm not sure how he's overrated...

Double Barrel
01-15-2007, 04:14 PM
While I'll acknowledge that Brady IS a great QB, I still think the guy is "somewhat" overrated.

That's exactly how I feel about Manning. :shades:

The Dream
01-15-2007, 04:16 PM
I'm not denying that he isn't clutch, but let's revisit certain parts of his career

Superbowl 1 - they shouldn't have even been there because Mr. Clutch fumbled the ball, but somehow the refs saw it differently......and it was the Pats Defense that played the biggest role in defeating the Rams, but all you read was "Brady had an amazing drive to beat the Rams"

Superbowl 2 - Brady played great, but Vinatieri hit an amazing FG to win, BUT once again "Brady leads his team to victory on the final drive"

Yesterday - he flat out sucked, but the curse of Marty can make wonders.....


I think he's a great QB, but the guy has been fortunate to have some incredible talent and coaching around him.....I'm not ready to rank him among the all time greats (Elway,Marino,Montana,Favre,etc.), because I don't believe he belongs there.

That's exactly how I feel about Manning.

and until he proves he can play great in the post-season I wouldn't blame you for having that opinion.

real
01-15-2007, 04:21 PM
I'm not denying that he isn't clutch, but let's revisit certain parts of his career

Superbowl 1 - they shouldn't have even been there because Mr. Clutch fumbled the ball, but somehow the refs saw it differently......and it was the Pats Defense that played the biggest role in defeating the Rams, but all you read was "Brady had an amazing drive to beat the Rams"

Superbowl 2 - Brady played great, but Vinatieri hit an amazing FG to win, BUT once again "Brady leads his team to victory on the final drive"

Yesterday - he flat out sucked, but the curse of Marty can make wonders.....


I think he's a great QB, but the guy has been fortunate to have some incredible talent and coaching around him.....I'm not ready to rank him among the all time greats (Elway,Marino,Montana,Favre,etc.), because I don't believe he belongs there.



and until he proves he can play great in the post-season I wouldn't blame you for having that opinion.


I find it quite strange that you like VY, and dis-like Brady....then use some of the same arguments VY detractors use against him(Brady)...

Replace Brady's name with Young, and you might be looking at the man in the mirror...

Double Barrel
01-15-2007, 04:29 PM
I'm not denying that he isn't clutch, but let's revisit certain parts of his career

Superbowl 1 - they shouldn't have even been there because Mr. Clutch fumbled the ball, but somehow the refs saw it differently......and it was the Pats Defense that played the biggest role in defeating the Rams, but all you read was "Brady had an amazing drive to beat the Rams"

Superbowl 2 - Brady played great, but Vinatieri hit an amazing FG to win, BUT once again "Brady leads his team to victory on the final drive"

Yesterday - he flat out sucked, but the curse of Marty can make wonders.....


I think he's a great QB, but the guy has been fortunate to have some incredible talent and coaching around him.....I'm not ready to rank him among the all time greats (Elway,Marino,Montana,Favre,etc.), because I don't believe he belongs there.



and until he proves he can play great in the post-season I wouldn't blame you for having that opinion.

I'd bet that you could micro-analyze Joe Montana's playoff games and find the same "lucky" circumstances. That's the game of football. When the game comes down to it for the QB to put the team in a position to win with a FG, though, Brady does what he's got to do.

Manning's team wins two playoff games in spite of him throwing multiple INTs in each game. That doesn't take away from him, but it is a team sport, and his team has always been good enough to go all the way (they just couldn't get it done). I don't buy the argument that he hasn't had defenses when they are perpetual playoff contenders. But he's not THE reason they're winning games right now.

Brady did have a bad game, but he shrugged it off at the end when it was required of him to move the ball into position for a FG. The great ones don't care about stats or what already happened. They just go out there and do it.

Funny that Young was brought up, because I see him and Brady with the same "IT factor. VY will probably not set any records, but he'll win games, and he's clutch. That's all that really matters at the end of the day.

The Dream
01-15-2007, 04:36 PM
I find it quite strange that you like VY, and dis-like Brady....then use some of the same arguments VY detractors use against him(Brady)...

Replace Brady's name with Young, and you might be looking at the man in the mirror...

Not the same thing...VY has crap around him and somehow when they started the year the Titans were bad, but when he came in they turned it around.....the Pats were already a great team when Brady came in, and unlike the VY haters I actually acknowledge that the man is good.

real
01-15-2007, 04:39 PM
Not the same thing...VY has crap around him and somehow when they started the year the Titans were bad, but when he came in they turned it around.....the Pats were already a great team when Brady came in, and unlike the VY haters I actually acknowledge that the man is good.

The Patriots weren't even expected to be in the Superbowl much less win it the first year Brady played...The patriots were an alright team, that became great after Brady took the reigns....

From your post it sounds as if you're saying VY is better than TB...say it isn't so....

The Dream
01-15-2007, 04:43 PM
The Patriots weren't even expected to be in the Superbowl much less win it the first year Brady played...The patriots were an alright team, that became great after Brady took the reigns....

From your post it sounds as if you're saying VY is better than TB...say it isn't so....

I didn't say that he was better, but the Patriots were more than just an alright team home skillet

real
01-15-2007, 04:45 PM
I didn't say that he was better, but the Patriots were more than just an alright team home skillet

If you think they were more than alright, that's you opinion and I can get with that....

But the point is that they weren't even thought of as a possible Super Bowl winner....Then they go and rack off three in four years.....Tell me you saw that coming.....

The Dream
01-15-2007, 04:47 PM
yes no one saw it coming, but collectively the Pats were great in those superbowls, there isn't anything hardly "great" on either side of the ball in VY's case....but to each his own I just hope the Colts pound the Pats on Sunday.

jerek
01-16-2007, 08:35 AM
I would love to see Brady get the snot knocked out of him....he played like crap yesterday, but the curse of "Marty" came into effect once again...I hope Manning decides to show up next Sunday, because I'm sick of all the Pats find a way to win talk.

LOL this from one of the most ardent Vince finds a way to win enthusiasts?

GoPats
01-16-2007, 09:10 AM
2nd ranked scoring D...and its 14 wins at this point. Brady is a great QB, but he is surrouned by possibly the best coaching staff, a very underrated defense, very good O-line, and the Pats historicaly get a little help from the refs when it matters. I think that if you swap Peyton and Brady's careers, then Manning would end up with the Superbowls and Brady would be the one holding the records because it takes a complete team to win a superbowl and the Colts have never really had that.

You need to do some studyin'. No offense, but if you're going to spout off with an opinion, at least try to make sure it's informed.

I'll ask you one question, and don't look it up. How many current Patriots were on the 2001 roster when they won their first game? You'd be surprised. That's almost a completely different team now, and they're still in it. Know why? Tom Brady. Period.

GoPats
01-16-2007, 09:13 AM
I'm not denying that he isn't clutch, but let's revisit certain parts of his career

Superbowl 1 - they shouldn't have even been there because Mr. Clutch fumbled the ball, but somehow the refs saw it differently......and it was the Pats Defense that played the biggest role in defeating the Rams, but all you read was "Brady had an amazing drive to beat the Rams"

Superbowl 2 - Brady played great, but Vinatieri hit an amazing FG to win, BUT once again "Brady leads his team to victory on the final drive"

Yesterday - he flat out sucked, but the curse of Marty can make wonders.....

I think he's a great QB, but the guy has been fortunate to have some incredible talent and coaching around him.....I'm not ready to rank him among the all time greats (Elway,Marino,Montana,Favre,etc.), because I don't believe he belongs there.

and until he proves he can play great in the post-season I wouldn't blame you for having that opinion.

Did you mean to leave out the entire 2004 post-season and Super Bowl 39 because it doesn't help your argument? Or did you just forget?

Brady didn't have his best game Sunday, but go back and look at the box score. Check out the scoring drive just before the half, the game-tying drive, and the game-winning drive. When it counts the most, Brady's the best. Maybe the best ever. (Yeah, I said it.)

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 09:30 AM
Without hesitation there isn't even a debate here. Manning is the Paris Hilton of QBs while Brady is Meryl Streep. Sorry but Manning puts up all the gaudy numbers but when it comes down to it he folds and gets flustered in the big games. Maybe it will be different this year. Brady is a leader and has 3 rings. That isn't a fluke. The bad game Sunday should be a perfect example. Did any of you watch the game. When S.D. was about to score and go up by 8, Brady was up on the sidelines going down the line telling the guys, its time, lets get going. He then proceeded to calmly drop 11 unanswered points on the Chargers basically throwing it from the shotgun. Considering this was a rebuilding year for the Pats, they had none of their returning WRs, etc makes it even more remarkable this year. Meanwhile, Manning does great this season surrounded by two top flight receivers and a strong supporting cast.

I just don't know why anyone in their right mind would answer Manning and want a whiny, record setting QB with no rings. We already saw that guy..Marino.

Double Barrel
01-16-2007, 10:18 AM
Manning might have future HoF Marvin Harrison as his go-to WR all these record-setting years, but Brady now has....Jabar Gaffney.

Huge
01-16-2007, 11:53 AM
I've always had a problem with winning being the defining trait of a great QB.

Seriously, does anybody really believe Troy Aikman was the best QB of the 1990's? He won more games during that decade than any other QB in any other decade while winning 3 Super Bowls.

But I wouldn't take him over John Elway, Steve Young, or Jim Kelly from the same decade.

I'd take Manning over Brady.

GoPats
01-16-2007, 12:20 PM
I think this says it all...

http://www.whichwouldyouprefer.com/

Double Barrel
01-16-2007, 12:43 PM
Seriously, does anybody really believe Troy Aikman was the best QB of the 1990's? He won more games during that decade than any other QB in any other decade while winning 3 Super Bowls.

But I wouldn't take him over John Elway, Steve Young, or Jim Kelly from the same decade.


I think you're selling your boy short. Doesn't he have one of the highest career QB completion percentages? He went to six consecutive Pro Bowls, and in 1997, Aikman became the first quarterback in Dallas history to have three straight 3,000-yard seasons. Winningest starting quarterback of any decade with 90 of 94 career wins occurring in 1990s. . .Held or tied 47 Dallas passing records

His post-season stats are nothing to sneeze at, either:

11-5 record in the post-season
502 passes attempted
320 passes completed
3,849 passing yards (240.5 ypg)
24 passing touchdowns
17 passes intercepted
29.5 passing attempts per interception in the post-season
6 Pro Bowls
1 Super Bowl MVP award
3 Super Bowl victories

I'd take Aikman as QB any day of the week, and I'm far from a Cowboys fan. I just see a great QB who took advantage of the talent around him.

The Dream
01-16-2007, 02:54 PM
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8808/peytexqj2.jpg

just thought this was funny


I've always had a problem with winning being the defining trait of a great QB.

Seriously, does anybody really believe Troy Aikman was the best QB of the 1990's? He won more games during that decade than any other QB in any other decade while winning 3 Super Bowls.

But I wouldn't take him over John Elway, Steve Young, or Jim Kelly from the same decade.

I'd take Manning over Brady.

I'm kinda coming from this perspective...like I said Brady is a great QB in my mind, BUT he's not on the level of a Montana or Elway

The Dream
01-16-2007, 03:19 PM
Brady's the best. Maybe the best ever

okay let me put it like this....let's say you have a crap team on both sides of the ball....so you need a special QB to come in and turn your team around....would you seriously take Brady over Montana or Elway in their primes????

GoPats
01-16-2007, 03:34 PM
okay let me put it like this....let's say you have a crap team on both sides of the ball....so you need a special QB to come in and turn your team around....would you seriously take Brady over Montana or Elway in their primes????

Right this second? No. But Brady has 10 years left in him. Let's measure them against each other when all's said and done. It's a cold hard fact that no one's won more Super Bowls at age 28 than Tom Brady. And he's two games away from adding to that.

torontooilfan
01-16-2007, 03:42 PM
okay let me put it like this....let's say you have a crap team on both sides of the ball....so you need a special QB to come in and turn your team around....would you seriously take Brady over Montana or Elway in their primes????

Montana never had crap WRs, even in KC he had better than what Brady has this year.

I can't even imagine how great Brady would look with Rice, Taylor and Brent Jones. Hell, as great as Elway was, at least he had the three Amigos and Shannon Sharpe.

I am no Pat fan, but Brady is making Gaffney and Caldwell look good FFS.

I'm now the converted on Brady. He's an all-timer.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 03:55 PM
I think you're selling your boy short. Doesn't he have one of the highest career QB completion percentages? He went to six consecutive Pro Bowls, and in 1997, Aikman became the first quarterback in Dallas history to have three straight 3,000-yard seasons. Winningest starting quarterback of any decade with 90 of 94 career wins occurring in 1990s. . .Held or tied 47 Dallas passing records

His post-season stats are nothing to sneeze at, either:

11-5 record in the post-season
502 passes attempted
320 passes completed
3,849 passing yards (240.5 ypg)
24 passing touchdowns
17 passes intercepted
29.5 passing attempts per interception in the post-season
6 Pro Bowls
1 Super Bowl MVP award
3 Super Bowl victories

I'd take Aikman as QB any day of the week, and I'm far from a Cowboys fan. I just see a great QB who took advantage of the talent around him.

Thank you for putting this. No matter the talent, etc the guy was incredibly accurate and was an absolute machine once the playoffs hit. And he beat the Favres, Youngs, and Kellys in the big games.

The Dream
01-16-2007, 05:03 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading......Brady sucked last week....he threw 3 picks and was inaccurate, but SD screwed up enough so it was bound that NE would eventually score.......I believe he's a great QB, but I think he gets a little more credit than he deserves....it's not like he's had "crap" around him when he's won his superbowls either.


one of the biggest reasons I don't put Brady over Joe or John is that unlike Tom, those 2 can make plays with their feet.....what happens to Brady if he gets that Blitz that Elway got against the Packers???....he gets sacked or throws the ball away or worst a turnover......I'm just not seeing the comparison here.

torontooilfan
01-16-2007, 05:20 PM
uh.....Montana was not exactly nimble on his feet either.

Double Barrel
01-16-2007, 05:27 PM
24 fourth qtr. come-from-behind victories in Brady's career so far. Three Super Bowl rings, two with game winning drives within the two minute warning. It's clutch. You know as well as I do that some QBs might not have all the glory stats, but they win games. Vince Young will be (or already is) this kind of QB. Surprised to see a VY-fan use stats against a QB, because it's all scoreboard at the end of the day. Most stats are only good for fantasy football and HoF arguments.

The Dream
01-16-2007, 05:33 PM
uh.....Montana was not exactly nimble on his feet either.


better than brady.....he wasn't as good as Young,Elway, etc., but he was more mobile than Tom.

24 fourth qtr. come-from-behind victories in Brady's career so far. Three Super Bowl rings, two with game winning drives within the two minute warning. It's clutch. You know as well as I do that some QBs might not have all the glory stats, but they win games. Vince Young will be (or already is) this kind of QB. Surprised to see a VY-fan use stats against a QB, because it's all scoreboard at the end of the day. Most stats are only good for fantasy football and HoF arguments.

I'm not denying that he isn't a great QB, but I can't sit up with a straight face and say that he's better than Elway or Montana

Double Barrel
01-16-2007, 05:39 PM
I'm not denying that he isn't a great QB, but I can't sit up with a straight face and say that he's better than Elway or Montana

I won't go there, either....but that could change by the end of his career, you have to admit. Same for Manning, too. These guys are elite talents.

stingray
01-16-2007, 05:39 PM
All you Vince young backers can't go against Brady in this one, cause just like vince, he doesn't get the stats but he wins the important ones. And i'm not comparing Vince to Brady, i'm just saying that you can't back up Vince and then turn your back on Brady.

The Dream
01-16-2007, 05:45 PM
I've already explained how the VY and Brady situations are different....

GoPats
01-17-2007, 12:00 PM
I won't go there, either....but that could change by the end of his career, you have to admit. Same for Manning, too. These guys are elite talents.

I totally agree with that, but would only point out that if Brady leads the Patriots to two more wins this season, he'll be in the books with Montana and Bradshaw as the only 4-SB winning QBs in history. And if he takes another MVP, that would tie him with Joe. When you look at their stats (which I'm not a big believer in, but regardless), Brady is right on par, if not ahead, of Montana at this point in his career. He's even or ahead in all categories except completion percentage, where he's a few points back.

And, far more important than any individual stats, his lifetime winning percentage is the highest of any QBs in history in both the regular season and playoffs. The skeptics tell you, "He's been on good teams," but there are currently only 10 players on the Patriots who were on the 2001 Super Bowl team. So basically the roster has turned over, but they're still among the league's elite. And that's because of Brady, IMO.

TwinSisters
01-18-2007, 08:14 AM
I totally agree with that, but would only point out that if Brady leads the Patriots to two more wins this season, he'll be in the books with Montana and Bradshaw as the only 4-SB winning QBs in history. And if he takes another MVP, that would tie him with Joe. When you look at their stats (which I'm not a big believer in, but regardless), Brady is right on par, if not ahead, of Montana at this point in his career. He's even or ahead in all categories except completion percentage, where he's a few points back.

And, far more important than any individual stats, his lifetime winning percentage is the highest of any QBs in history in both the regular season and playoffs. The skeptics tell you, "He's been on good teams," but there are currently only 10 players on the Patriots who were on the 2001 Super Bowl team. So basically the roster has turned over, but they're still among the league's elite. And that's because of Brady, IMO.

Man, this is cool. A Manning VS Brady debate and Vince Young is being tossed around in it like Bradshaw and Joe. It's showing up at the laundromat and having 2 hottie sorority girls waiting to use your machine.

amazingandre
01-20-2007, 12:04 PM
are you kidding me it is brady hands down...he has no-named receivers and still puts up the numbers and wins....manning has two of the best in the league and a great tight end.....who would you want on your team a guy that will get it don no matter who he throws it too or a qb that has only been with the best wr's........?

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 06:43 PM
2nd Quarter. Any questions?

TwinSisters
01-21-2007, 09:25 PM
as of 730pm Pacific,

Manning.

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 09:31 PM
as of 730pm Pacific,

Manning.

Really..maybe after 3 SB wins and not just going there. Brady didn't lose this game.

Mr teX
01-21-2007, 09:32 PM
Just like i thought about brady. He's going down as a great & rightfully so, but in all the big games he's played in, i don't recall him ever having to come from behind needing more than a field goal to win it Where the pressure was squarely on him.

Congrats to Manning, i was rooting for him today.

TexanSam
01-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Really..maybe after 3 SB wins and not just going there. Brady didn't lose this game.

What about that interception he threw at the end?

Mr teX
01-21-2007, 09:35 PM
Really..maybe after 3 SB wins and not just going there. Brady didn't lose this game.

Come on man, He threw an int. to seal the deal. There was still time to score a TD, & they had a time out. obviously, there were other plays that weigh in on the fact that the pats were behind in the first place but still. If he didn't lose this game, i don't know what you call losing it for your team.

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 10:18 PM
Come on man, He threw an int. to seal the deal. There was still time to score a TD, & they had a time out. obviously, there were other plays that weigh in on the fact that the pats were behind in the first place but still. If he didn't lose this game, i don't know what you call losing it for your team.

OK, so the guy leads them all game. Competes his tail off. He helps stake them to a 21-3 lead. He helped them put up 34 points. The defense doesn't stop Manning, his receivers drop balls and he throws one int when his team is trying to score a TD with less than a minute and it is his fault? Whatever you say..lol..that is laughable. That isn't losing it for your team. As to your comments above, what would it matter if he needed a tD or a FG is other games when his job is to put them in the situation to win. 12-1 in the playoffs and 31 or whatever come from behind wins in games since 2001 isn't just some random plays he made. Dear Lord. Manning is a great QB but right now he is still Marino. I just have more respect for guys who go about winning championships quietly than making 50 commercials and whining at his receivers everytime something goes wrong. Great game but he still can't hold a candle to what Brady has done with less talent.

TwinSisters
01-21-2007, 10:24 PM
Really..maybe after 3 SB wins and not just going there. Brady didn't lose this game.

Sure.

DISCLAIMER: First off, I am only participating in this banter because I don't have anything better to do as of right now. Er, actually I have a ton of better things to do, but I am not going to do them anyway.

Soooooo... what we have to do to get a little comparative analysis done, is isolate out a few variables.

Manning VS Brady one on one: Manning is from good southern stock and feed on some the best damn food known to man. Brady is from California.. and San Francisco at that. Score Manning.

Superbowls: You have to deduct the tuck rule bowl from Brady's resume`. One he didn't win it, the Italian kicker did. You can deduct bowl number two on the same account... the third superbowl kick...well either or.

Manning in the mean time had a Canadian kicker with a mental problem. Score Manning again.

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 10:30 PM
Sure.

DISCLAIMER: First off, I am only participating in this banter because I don't have anything better to do as of right now. Er, actually I have ton of better things to do, but I am not going to do them anyway.

Soooooo... what we have to do get a little comparative analysis done is isolate out a few variables.

Manning VS Brady one on one: Manning is from good southern stock and feed on some the best damn food known to man. Brady is from California.. and San Francisco at that. Score Manning.

Superbowls: You have to deduct the tuck rule bowl from Brady's resume`. One he didn't win it, the Italian kicker did. You can deduct bowl number two on the same account... the third superbowl kick...well either or.

Manning in the mean time had a Canadian kicker with a mental problem. Score Manning again.

See, now that is funny.:). And I understand the bored part. I'm not trying to take away from what Manning did today but in my book having a laoded team and choking in big games only to pull out one doesn't make them level all of a sudden. I also don't think Brady helping his team score 34 pts is losing a game. I put that on his D.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
01-21-2007, 10:31 PM
Well, it doesn't matter now. At least not this year. Manning proved himself better than Brady.
I love how Manning had them thinking short pass into the endzone and then just handed off again on third down. It looked like NE was expecting an Indy field goal to tie for overtime play.
And then that reckless throw by Brady to end the game on an interception. Manning wins over Brady.
:drunk:

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 10:32 PM
Well, it doesn't matter now. At least not this year. Manning proved himself better than Brady.
I love how Manning had them thinking short pass into the endzone and then just handed off again on third down. It looked like NE was expecting an Indy field goal to tie for overtime play.
And then that reckless throw by Brady to end the game on an interception. Manning wins over Brady.
:drunk:

This year yes. Sleep it off..lol

mike moffat
01-21-2007, 10:43 PM
OK, so the guy leads them all game. Competes his tail off. He helps stake them to a 21-3 lead. He helped them put up 34 points. The defense doesn't stop Manning, his receivers drop balls and he throws one int when his team is trying to score a TD with less than a minute and it is his fault? Whatever you say..lol..that is laughable. That isn't losing it for your team. As to your comments above, what would it matter if he needed a tD or a FG is other games when his job is to put them in the situation to win. 12-1 in the playoffs and 31 or whatever come from behind wins in games since 2001 isn't just some random plays he made. Dear Lord. Manning is a great QB but right now he is still Marino. I just have more respect for guys who go about winning championships quietly than making 50 commercials and whining at his receivers everytime something goes wrong. Great game but he still can't hold a candle to what Brady has done with less talent.
C'mon, Frog. Now you're whining. Just face it. Today, Manning did something that no other QB has done. He overcame the largest deficit to win the championship game. And, Brady threw the int. to close out the game. Give Manning the win and congratulate him. Don't throw rocks at him for taking advantage of his status with the commercials. I'd do the same thing. So would you.

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 10:47 PM
C'mon, Frog. Now you're whining. Just face it. Today, Manning did something that no other QB has done. He overcame the largest deficit to win the championship game. And, Brady threw the int. to close out the game. Give Manning the win and congratulate him. Don't throw rocks at him for taking advantage of his status with the commercials. I'd do the same thing. So would you.

How am I whining?I said congrats in another thread to the guy. Today he truly deserved it. I had just written a message in the second quarter and someone wrote that as of today Manning was better. He was better today but not overall in my book. I do have a question though. Why isn't a guy like Brady, who is good looking and a 3 time SB champ and a SB MVP not in 50 commercials?That is my problem. It is like Manning wants us to think he is funny. I wanted Manning to beat the Steelers last year. This year I have just had him thrown in my face too much and I respect what Brady did this year with inferior talent and what he has done in a parity filled league. They are the closest thing to a dynasty since the 90s Cowboys. It isn't like I think Manning is a bad QB. Overall it was a great game though and I take my hat off to the Colts for winning 3 tough games. I might even root for them against the Bears. Night all.

mike moffat
01-21-2007, 10:53 PM
How am I whining?I said congrats in another thread to the guy. Today he truly deserved it. I had just written a message in the second quarter and someone wrote that as of today Manning was better. He was better today but not overall in my book. I do have a question though. Why isn't a guy like Brady, who is good looking and a 3 time SB champ and a SB MVP not in 50 commercials?That is my problem. It is like Manning wants us to think he is funny. I wanted Manning to beat the Steelers last year. This year I have just had him thrown in my face too much and I respect what Brady did this year with inferior talent. It isn't like I think Manning is a bad QB. Overall it was a great game though and I take my hat off to the Colts for winning 3 tough games.
I think that Manning has a personality and knows how to exploit his persona. Brady on the other hand is "Milk Toast". He's just a little bland. Hell, he's a great quarter back. He just doesn't have that flamboyant personality. Afterall, Manning is also a great humanitarian. He does alot for charities and especially for the New Orleans area.

HoustonFrog
01-21-2007, 10:58 PM
I think that Manning has a personality and knows how to exploit his persona. Brady on the other hand is "Milk Toast". He's just a little bland. Hell, he's a great quarter back. He just doesn't have that flamboyant personality. Afterall, Manning is also a great humanitarian. He does alot for charities and especially for the New Orleans area.

I'm sure he is a good guy. He seems humble. I just got Over Manning this year. Brady did SNL one year and I thought he was good. I just think he is more to himself and would rather not let people in..except dating hot chicks. From what I've heard he just doesn't like the attention. I don't get peeved about this stuff anyways. Both are great in their own ways and it is good football talk. I was just hoping the Pats kept Manning out again. Anyways, good to tale to ya!

mike moffat
01-21-2007, 11:00 PM
Agreed. The Texans could do well with either one of these guys. Peace out.

Carr Bombed
01-21-2007, 11:01 PM
It is still Brady hands down, sorry Brady doesn't have R. Wayne, or Harrison. Brady makes do and wins despite have people plucked off his team. Stick peyton on the Pats and Brady with that offensive talent and that game is a blowout.

Brady is easily > than Peyton

TwinSisters
01-21-2007, 11:12 PM
It is still Brady hands down

No.

It's Manning over Brady by a foot.

Carr Bombed
01-21-2007, 11:18 PM
no its not, Brady comes up big in the playoffs

Manning throws ints in the playoffs. People are making to much judgement off one game. Manning was horrible up to this game. Brady has 3 SB victories, 2 SB MVPs, almost a perfect playoff record. Brady took less money to keep his team competitive, which is the reason they'll reach the big game next year and I'll take him every time over Manning.

TwinSisters
01-21-2007, 11:53 PM
no its not, Brady comes up big in the playoffs

Manning throws ints in the playoffs. People are making to much judgement off one game. Manning was horrible up to this game. Brady has 3 SB victories, 2 SB MVPs, almost a perfect playoff record. Brady took less money to keep his team competitive, which is the reason they'll reach the big game next year and I'll take him every time over Manning.

Yes it is. Manning.

And there is not a big judgement being passed off of one game. This debate has been going on in football circles for what? 5 to 6 years now. Forbes even ran articles on it... and I bet they ran multiple articles on it.

Political parties divide on it... Mules for Manning, GOP for Brady.

I bet even divorce settlements have included parts of the debate.

I know of at least one gunfight and two fist fights that broke out over who is the better quarterback. ( true, it was a super-soaker against my little nephews, but a gunfight nonetheless )

Manning. And a Manning that doesn't even have to win a Super Bowl to tip the scales over Brady. He only had to make it to the Super Bowl to be better.

Even his bust in Canton is going to be bigger than Brady's because his head is bigger.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2007, 12:24 AM
Yes it is. Manning.

And there is not a big judgement being passed off of one game. This debate has been going on in football circles for what? 5 to 6 years now. Forbes even ran articles on it... and I bet they ran multiple articles on it.

Political parties divide on it... Mules for Manning, GOP for Brady.

I bet even divorce settlements have included parts of the debate.

I know of at least one gunfight and two fist fights that broke out over who is the better quarterback. ( true, it was a super-soaker against my little nephews, but a gunfight nonetheless )

Manning. And a Manning that doesn't even have to win a Super Bowl to tip the scales over Brady. He only had to make it to the Super Bowl to be better.

Even his bust in Canton is going to be bigger than Brady's because his head is bigger.

please give your reason why you think Manning is better. Manning plays with two pro bowl WRs, which one is a HOFmer and up to this year played with a top 3 back.

Brady however plays with, "we'll give you what the cap allows you" WRs and avg. RBs. One has a outstanding record in the postseason the other with all his probowlers leaves much desired. Manning freaks, has during this postseason (up to this game), did last year, and the year before that, and the year before that, and the year before that, and so on.

Carr Bombed
01-22-2007, 12:35 AM
Manning has numbers......so does Marino

Brady has clutch victories and is on the tail of Elway for most 4th quarter comebacks in NFL history and on the tail of Montana and Bradshaw for SB victories.

Brady is a better playoff Quarterback, Manning is........well after he retires, theres going to be nobody to compare him to so, Manning is Manning. It really isn't close.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 02:47 AM
please give your reason why you think Manning is better. Manning plays with two pro bowl WRs, which one is a HOFmer and up to this year played with a top 3 back.

alright fair enough ... reasons Manning is better than Brady

Re-stated Disclaimer: Yes, I understand this question shares incredibly similiar charateristics to that of the Superman VS Batman and Batgirl VS Wonder Woman when we all know Flash Gordon is the real hero debate. But we must fight through it, if mankind is ever going to survive

Reason Number One:
Belichick is considered to be superior to Tony Dungy and Jim Mora. A good portion of the Superbowl wins are often credited to his "super genius football mind".
If Brady was greater than Manning then Belichick wouldn't get so much credit.

Reason Number Two:
Vinateiri separates Brady from other comeback and post season kings like Montana/Elway. Elway drove for the score... Montana struck with "The Catch".
Brady just had to make it past the 35 yard line. Vinateiri has something like 20 game winning kicks with less than a minute to play. ( the wikipedia has him listed as 19 for the Patriots )

This takes away from Brady. He has 21 something comeback victories. Vinateiri kicked 19 game winning kicks.... damn that sure is close.

Reason Number Three:
For the 9 years that Manning has played for the Colts... in only two of them has his defense been ranked in the top ten for points allowed. And then for only two seasons has his offense not been ranked in the top ten for points made.

It's like the exact oppposite for Brady in New England.

That means that Manning had to always overcome his defense, while Brady just had to ride them to victories. For the team, that is good for the Pats. But for which QB is better, that is a good case for Manning.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 07:58 AM
no its not, Brady comes up big in the playoffs

Manning throws ints in the playoffs. People are making to much judgement off one game. Manning was horrible up to this game. Brady has 3 SB victories, 2 SB MVPs, almost a perfect playoff record. Brady took less money to keep his team competitive, which is the reason they'll reach the big game next year and I'll take him every time over Manning.

So right CB. I'm not even quite sure if the reasons he stated in the thread were half in jest or for real but Brady is still the best. Manning bested him, finally, in one game and again I was impressed with 34 points with bug eyes and Gaffney as his top receivers.

kastofsna
01-22-2007, 08:27 AM
alright fair enough ... reasons Manning is better than Brady

Re-stated Disclaimer: Yes, I understand this question shares incredibly similiar charateristics to that of the Superman VS Batman and Batgirl VS Wonder Woman when we all know Flash Gordon is the real hero debate. But we must fight through it, if mankind is ever going to survive

Reason Number One:
Belichick is considered to be superior to Tony Dungy and Jim Mora. A good portion of the Superbowl wins are often credited to his "super genius football mind".
If Brady was greater than Manning then Belichick wouldn't get so much credit.

Reason Number Two:
Vinateiri separates Brady from other comeback and post season kings like Montana/Elway. Elway drove for the score... Montana struck with "The Catch".
Brady just had to make it past the 35 yard line. Vinateiri has something like 20 game winning kicks with less than a minute to play. ( the wikipedia has him listed as 19 for the Patriots )

This takes away from Brady. He has 21 something comeback victories. Vinateiri kicked 19 game winning kicks.... damn that sure is close.

Reason Number Three:
For the 9 years that Manning has played for the Colts... in only two of them has his defense been ranked in the top ten for points allowed. And then for only two seasons has his offense not been ranked in the top ten for points made.

It's like the exact oppposite for Brady in New England.

That means that Manning had to always overcome his defense, while Brady just had to ride them to victories. For the team, that is good for the Pats. But for which QB is better, that is a good case for Manning.
none of those reasons have anything to do at all with manning's ability on the field. or brady's ability on the field, for that matter.

why is that when people talk about how good a quarterback is, they always look to the teammates first?

Mr teX
01-22-2007, 08:59 AM
none of those reasons have anything to do at all with manning's ability on the field. or brady's ability on the field, for that matter.

why is that when people talk about how good a quarterback is, they always look to the teammates first?

The same reason people label guys as "winners" like they are the sole reason for a team winning a game. True, the QB has the most influence on a team's success & failure but c'mon, it's a team game & barring a Qb playing against 11 guys on the defense by himself, i think it's an inappropriate term to give 1 person. & this just isn't about brady, its about every Qb (this term seems to only be applied to them) who's ever been labeled that. We've seen Qb's with not so hot recievers win Superbowls & we've seen Qb's with immense talent on their side. What do both of these 2 types of teams have in common? Most likely a opportunistic defense & good big uglies, which you can say that Both Manning & brady have.

I've always hated that term as it applies towards 1 guy. If a guy doesn't make mistakes that cost his team the game, then say that.

Kaiser Toro
01-22-2007, 09:02 AM
Manning was the better quarterback yesterday. Manning was the better the quarterback in week 9. Manning was the better quarter back in week 9 of 2005 as well. In the regular season Manning has been the best QB this decade and has an opportunity to be the first QB ever selected as the #1 player in the draft to start and win a SB in the salary cap era.

Simply, he is doing things never done before.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 09:26 AM
The same reason people label guys as "winners" like they are the sole reason for a team winning a game. True, the QB has the most influence on a team's success & failure but c'mon, it's a team game & barring a Qb playing against 11 guys on the defense by himself, i think it's an inappropriate term to give 1 person. & this just isn't about brady, its about every Qb (this term seems to only be applied to them) who's ever been labeled that. We've seen Qb's with not so hot recievers win Superbowls & we've seen Qb's with immense talent on their side. What do both of these 2 types of teams have in common? Most likely a opportunistic defense & good big uglies, which you can say that Both Manning & brady have.

I've always hated that term as it applies towards 1 guy. If a guy doesn't make mistakes that cost his team the game, then say that.

I know where you are coming from but that theory just takes away from the Bradshaws, Staubachs, Montanas, Aikmans, Elways, Bradys and all of those who keep bringing their team back. I get the fact that it is a team game and all but guys like Elways got to the SB originally(when they lost) with zero running game and a bunch of no name receivers. The QB position is hands down one of the hardest to play in any league and if plugging guys in to certain teams was the answer then we wouldn't see the great ones step up. Any other QB with NEs set of receivers and set up this year would have been soso in my book. Certain guys know how to play. People always mention O-line but I saw alot more of Brady actually getting pressured and stepping up, around and to the side of pressure to make plays. Some guys know how to use the pocket. Again, I agree with some of your points but there is a reason why some QBs are great and others can't hack it. Most of the great ones don't keep their teams losing for long.

Huge
01-22-2007, 11:50 AM
I think you're selling your boy short. Doesn't he have one of the highest career QB completion percentages? He went to six consecutive Pro Bowls, and in 1997, Aikman became the first quarterback in Dallas history to have three straight 3,000-yard seasons. Winningest starting quarterback of any decade with 90 of 94 career wins occurring in 1990s. . .Held or tied 47 Dallas passing records

His post-season stats are nothing to sneeze at, either:

11-5 record in the post-season
502 passes attempted
320 passes completed
3,849 passing yards (240.5 ypg)
24 passing touchdowns
17 passes intercepted
29.5 passing attempts per interception in the post-season
6 Pro Bowls
1 Super Bowl MVP award
3 Super Bowl victories

I'd take Aikman as QB any day of the week, and I'm far from a Cowboys fan. I just see a great QB who took advantage of the talent around him.
I'm not selling him short. I'm just saying he was not the best QB of the 90's despite his record/stats.

I'd take him any day of the week as well. But there are other QB's from the 90's that I'd take first.

Huge
01-22-2007, 11:54 AM
And since we can now update this:

Was Rex Grossman a better QB this year than Tom Brady because the Bears advanced further in the playoffs than the Pats did?

If you're going to based most of your logic around Brady's team success as to how he's a better QB than Manning, then you'd have to agree that Grossman is at least the 2nd best QB in the league this season.

TexansLucky13
01-22-2007, 12:11 PM
I would rather have Brady, all things considered. He gets the ball to the open receiver. All he needs is a guy that can get himself open down the field. This is why Gaffney and Caldwell have jobs right now.

run-david-run
01-22-2007, 12:17 PM
You can compare Manning's receivers to Brady's all you want, by why does no one compared the defense? This is a team sport after all. Throughout his career at NE, Brady has been great in the playoffs, but he is just part of the team. His offensive lines becomes almost perfect in the playoffs, yet again holding off another of the best pass rushing teams in the NFL. Meanwhile, he constantly has players such as Ty Law, Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, etc, that make big plays when it counts on the defensive end . Think Law shutting down the Rams in 01' and Harrison in 03', Harrison constantly making huge interceptions in playoff games, and those linebackers always coming up with a huge strip, sack, or tackle. This is the first time the Colts and Pats have met in the playoffs and it has been a shoot out...big surprise the team with the best QB pulled it out in the end.

Mr teX
01-22-2007, 01:17 PM
You can compare Manning's receivers to Brady's all you want, by why does no one compared the defense? This is a team sport after all. Throughout his career at NE, Brady has been great in the playoffs, but he is just part of the team. His offensive lines becomes almost perfect in the playoffs, yet again holding off another of the best pass rushing teams in the NFL. Meanwhile, he constantly has players such as Ty Law, Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, etc, that make big plays when it counts on the defensive end . Think Law shutting down the Rams in 01' and Harrison in 03', Harrison constantly making huge interceptions in playoff games, and those linebackers always coming up with a huge strip, sack, or tackle. This is the first time the Colts and Pats have met in the playoffs and it has been a shoot out...big surprise the team with the best QB pulled it out in the end.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Another thing to look at is this. Manning & Brady are already shoe-ins for the HOF, Yet, manning hasn't even gone to a superbowl yet. That says alot about the guy as a QB right there. If Brady doesn't have any superbowl appearances is he still a HOFer at this stage in his career? probably not.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 02:19 PM
You can compare Manning's receivers to Brady's all you want, by why does no one compared the defense? This is a team sport after all. Throughout his career at NE, Brady has been great in the playoffs, but he is just part of the team. His offensive lines becomes almost perfect in the playoffs, yet again holding off another of the best pass rushing teams in the NFL. Meanwhile, he constantly has players such as Ty Law, Bruschi, Vrabel, Harrison, etc, that make big plays when it counts on the defensive end . Think Law shutting down the Rams in 01' and Harrison in 03', Harrison constantly making huge interceptions in playoff games, and those linebackers always coming up with a huge strip, sack, or tackle. This is the first time the Colts and Pats have met in the playoffs and it has been a shoot out...big surprise the team with the best QB pulled it out in the end.


word...Brady = get's too much credit...therefore he's overrated....the guy can not beat you by himself like Manning,McNabb,etc., because personally I just don't think he's that "type" of QB....he's smart, doesn't make mistakes, BUT he's not in the league of Elway, Montana, Marino,etc.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 02:27 PM
word...Brady = get's too much credit...therefore he's overrated....the guy can not beat you by himself like Manning,McNabb,etc., because personally I just don't think he's that "type" of QB....he's smart, doesn't make mistakes, BUT he's not in the league of Elway, Montana, Marino,etc.


Seriously, guys? The Patriots this year had almost no receivers and all of the guys were guys he hadn't worked with. They had lost alot of guys on D. This was a rebuilding year. There were games this year where the Pats went straight to a spread offense and pretty much destroyed teams because of Brady. What does the defense of the Pats have to do with Brady taking them down and winning games?If you are going to get this picky and ridiculous then why not just take away what Montana did because he had the greatest WR of all time, a great second receiver, a strong backfield, a great TE and a defense anchored by Ronnie Lott?Why not take away Bradhsaw and Staubach because they were surrouinded by HOFers and had the Doomsday and the Steel Curtain?Seriously, people need to think about this for a second. There are reasons why there are dynastys and there is a reason why only so many teams win SBs. It usually starts with their QB and how he handles pressure, the playoffs, etc. Brady has won 3 SBs and up until yesterday was 12-1 in the playoffs. That is sick considering the pressure and the way the Pats work under the salary cap. Come on people. This argument is starting to get to a reach. The fact is that up until this year Manning has folded in big games. He is 5-10 against the Pats and 3-6 v Brady. This is his first w against the Pats in the playoffs where he is 5-6.. Props to him but you can't change history.

Double Barrel
01-22-2007, 02:33 PM
This is the first time the Colts and Pats have met in the playoffs and it has been a shoot out...big surprise the team with the best QB pulled it out in the end.

...and the best receivers. Strange that Harrison and Wayne don't get any respect catching the majority of Manning's balls. They'll probably be in the HoF eventually, too.

I think this is a silly argument, to be honest. Brady and Manning are clearly the two best QBs in football right now, so which one is "better" is merely a matter of framing the argument.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 02:42 PM
Seriously, guys? The Patriots this year had almost no receivers and all of the guys were guys he hadn't worked with. They had lost alot of guys on D. This was a rebuilding year. There were games this year where the Pats went straight to a spread offense and pretty much destroyed teams because of Brady. What does the defense of the Pats have to do with Brady taking them down and winning games?If you are going to get this picky and ridiculous then why not just take away what Montana did because he had the greatest WR of all time, a great second receiver, a strong backfield, a great TE and a defense anchored by Ronnie Lott?Why not take away Bradhsaw and Staubach because they were surrouinded by HOFers and had the Doomsday and the Steel Curtain?Seriously, people need to think about this for a second. There are reasons why there are dynastys and there is a reason why only so many teams win SBs. It usually starts with their QB and how he handles pressure, the playoffs, etc. Brady has won 3 SBs and up until yesterday was 12-1 in the playoffs. That is sick considering the pressure and the way the Pats work under the salary cap. Come on people. This argument is starting to get to a reach. The fact is that up until this year Manning has folded in big games. He is 5-10 against the Pats and 3-6 v Brady. This is his first w against the Pats in the playoffs where he is 5-6.. Props to him but you can't change history.


yes you need talent around you, but Brady is no Elway or Montana.....to be honest his game winning drives might even be a tad bit overrated....that's right overrated....the drive against Carolina was started on the 40, meaning he didn't have to go that far for the real hero to kick the game winning FG......he's a good QB, but the hype given to this dude makes me sick to my stomach, because I've yet to see a game where he completely took over and "dominated"....the guys is overrated and I've been saying it since NE's first superbowl.

EDIT

Brady couldn't do what Manning did yesterday.....he's not a QB that can orchestrate a huge comeback, because he's not in that league....done.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 03:11 PM
yes you need talent around you, but Brady is no Elway or Montana.....to be honest his game winning drives might even be a tad bit overrated....that's right overrated....the drive against Carolina was started on the 40, meaning he didn't have to go that far for the real hero to kick the game winning FG......he's a good QB, but the hype given to this dude makes me sick to my stomach, because I've yet to see a game where he completely took over and "dominated"....the guys is overrated and I've been saying it since NE's first superbowl.

EDIT

Brady couldn't do what Manning did yesterday.....he's not a QB that can orchestrate a huge comeback, because he's not in that league....done.

There is no proof to anything you said. Elway and Montana were great and may be better than Brady but you can't throw out arguments about defenses and surrounding players without looking at their teams too. You can't look at one guy and say he lucked into his winning. You don't win 3 SBs by accident. You don't go 12-1 in the playoffs by accident. You don't take a team of scrubs on O and take them to the conference title game. Manning has had more talent than anything Brady has had to work with and he has made it work and has a better record than Manning head to head. The Colts defense was alot higher than NEs in 2005 and has some playmakers on it. You can gloss the game winning FGs all you want but with time running down someone has to make the plays and put the team in the position to win. I can take your argument and turn it around. So would Vinieteri be the hero or best clutch kicker if his offense didn't put him in position to make the kick? You still have to play under pressure and make the plays. Something Manning failed miserably at until this year. I can't believe people oversimplify the position so much like you can just plug in Carr into NE and he would have had that success. The Pats ran the spread where Brady had to win games this year. The funny part about all of this is that Manning had 2 terrible games against KC and Baltimore and his defense bailed him out but no one says a word..lol. All of a sudden all of Bradys past success was due to others. Unreal. Is he a better QB than Montana or Elway..probably not in my book but to deny that he isn't a great QB is just absurd. Sorry Dream, I'm usually with ya.

stingray
01-22-2007, 03:15 PM
There is no proof to anything you said. Elway and Montana were great and may be better than Brady but you can't throw out arguments about defenses and surrounding players without looking at their teams too. You can't look at one guy and say he lucked into his winning. You don't win 3 SBs by accident. You don't go 12-1 in the playoffs by accident. You don't take a team of scrubs on O and take them to the conference title game. Manning has had more talent than anything Brady has had to work with and he has made it work and has a better record than Manning head to head. The Colts defense was alot higher than NEs in 2005 and has some playmakers on it. You can gloss the game winning FGs all you want but with time running down someone has to make the plays and put the team in the position to win. I can take your argument and turn it around. So would Vinieteri be the hero or best clutch kicker if his offense didn't put him in position to make the kick? You still have to play under pressure and make the plays. Something Manning failed miserably at until this year. I can't believe people oversimplify the position so much like you can just plug in Carr into NE and he would have had that success. The Pats ran the spread where Brady had to win games this year. The funny part about all of this is that Manning had 2 terrible games against KC and Baltimore and his defense bailed him out but no one says a word..lol. All of a sudden all of Bradys past success was due to others. Unreal. Is he a better QB than Montana or Elway..probably not in my book but to deny that he isn't a great QB is just absurd. Sorry Dream, I'm usually with ya.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

real
01-22-2007, 03:19 PM
The measure of a great QB:

Always feeling like you have a shot.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 03:23 PM
There is no proof to anything you said. Elway and Montana were great and may be better than Brady but you can't throw out arguments about defenses and surrounding players without looking at their teams too. You can't look at one guy and say he lucked into his winning. You don't win 3 SBs by accident. You don't go 12-1 in the playoffs by accident. You don't take a team of scrubs on O and take them to the conference title game. Manning has had more talent than anything Brady has had to work with and he has made it work and has a better record than Manning head to head. The Colts defense was alot higher than NEs in 2005 and has some playmakers on it. You can gloss the game winning FGs all you want but with time running down someone has to make the plays and put the team in the position to win. I can take your argument and turn it around. So would Vinieteri be the hero or best clutch kicker if his offense didn't put him in position to make the kick? You still have to play under pressure and make the plays. Something Manning failed miserably at until this year. I can't believe people oversimplify the position so much like you can just plug in Carr into NE and he would have had that success. The Pats ran the spread where Brady had to win games this year. The funny part about all of this is that Manning had 2 terrible games against KC and Baltimore and his defense bailed him out but no one says a word..lol. All of a sudden all of Bradys past success was due to others. Unreal. Is he a better QB than Montana or Elway..probably not in my book but to deny that he isn't a great QB is just absurd. Sorry Dream, I'm usually with ya.


I didn't say he lucked into anything...I've said plenty of times that I believe Brady is a great QB, BUT he's not in the league of some of the other greats.....let's put it this way, if I'm down 21 to 3 I don't want Brady as my QB....if I have a good defense and a solid running game then I'm fine with Brady as my QB...do you get what I'm trying to say?

Mr teX
01-22-2007, 03:26 PM
There is no proof to anything you said. Elway and Montana were great and may be better than Brady but you can't throw out arguments about defenses and surrounding players without looking at their teams too. You can't look at one guy and say he lucked into his winning. You don't win 3 SBs by accident. You don't go 12-1 in the playoffs by accident. You don't take a team of scrubs on O and take them to the conference title game. Manning has had more talent than anything Brady has had to work with and he has made it work and has a better record than Manning head to head. The Colts defense was alot higher than NEs in 2005 and has some playmakers on it. You can gloss the game winning FGs all you want but with time running down someone has to make the plays and put the team in the position to win. I can take your argument and turn it around. So would Vinieteri be the hero or best clutch kicker if his offense didn't put him in position to make the kick? You still have to play under pressure and make the plays. Something Manning failed miserably at until this year. I can't believe people oversimplify the position so much like you can just plug in Carr into NE and he would have had that success. The Pats ran the spread where Brady had to win games this year. The funny part about all of this is that Manning had 2 terrible games against KC and Baltimore and his defense bailed him out but no one says a word..lol. All of a sudden all of Bradys past success was due to others. Unreal. Is he a better QB than Montana or Elway..probably not in my book but to deny that he isn't a great QB is just absurd. Sorry Dream, I'm usually with ya.

Why? the guy's claim to fame is the "tuck" rule which I'm damn confident in my guess that he probably knew nothing about until it happen to him. Put it like this: if vinatieri misses ANY of his actual game winners, (Especially the snow kick) Brady is left with nothing but the same ol' stigma that Manning had before yesterday. Furthermore IMO what makes the patriots most unique is their game day strategies & management & most of that credit goes to Belichick for devising & controlling them/it. catching teams off guard with no huddle 5 WR sets run in the middle of the game, putting pressure on the opposing offense with well disguised blitz schemes, going for it on 4th and 1-2 on the 50 yd line, all that is a credit to belichick, even though i don't like him. not trying to oversimplify the position, but you have to admit the guy is given a tad bit too much credit for a great overall team, head coach to special teamer.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 03:28 PM
also Brady has had people to throw to and he's always had a pretty good running game.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 03:35 PM
Why? the guy's claim to fame is the "tuck" rule which I'm damn confident in my guess that he probably knew nothing about until it happen to him. Put it like this: if vinatieri misses ANY of his actual game winners, (Especially the snow kick) Brady is left with nothing but the same ol' stigma that Manning had before yesterday. Furthermore IMO what makes the patriots most unique is their game day strategies & management & most of that credit goes to Belichick for devising & controlling them/it. catching teams off guard with no huddle 5 WR sets run in the middle of the game, putting pressure on the opposing offense with well disguised blitz schemes, going for it on 4th and 1-2 on the 50 yd line, all that is a credit to belichick, even though i don't like him.

I partially agree with this...did brady ever put his team in the endzone on any of "his" game winning drives?

edit

and if Vanderjact hits his FG last year then Manning = hero.....his post actually makes a lot of sense.

Mr teX
01-22-2007, 03:42 PM
I partially agree with this...did brady ever put his team in the endzone on any of "his" game winning drives?

I know not any of the superbowls, This was the 1st time the pressure was squarely on him to get his team in the endzone, no more possessions, you need a TD. It also depends on your definition of game winning drives. my definition is you win the game by tossing/running a TD in. not moving your team into position for a shot at winning. i'm sure at some point in the regular season, early playoff games he's probably done it.

The Dream
01-22-2007, 03:48 PM
me and my dad weren't even worried when Brady got the ball with 1 minute left....NE was down by 4 and that means he'd have to put them in the endzone, and I could never recall him doing that.....

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 06:57 PM
Why? the guy's claim to fame is the "tuck" rule which I'm damn confident in my guess that he probably knew nothing about until it happen to him. Put it like this: if vinatieri misses ANY of his actual game winners, (Especially the snow kick) Brady is left with nothing but the same ol' stigma that Manning had before yesterday. Furthermore IMO what makes the patriots most unique is their game day strategies & management & most of that credit goes to Belichick for devising & controlling them/it. catching teams off guard with no huddle 5 WR sets run in the middle of the game, putting pressure on the opposing offense with well disguised blitz schemes, going for it on 4th and 1-2 on the 50 yd line, all that is a credit to belichick, even though i don't like him. not trying to oversimplify the position, but you have to admit the guy is given a tad bit too much credit for a great overall team, head coach to special teamer.

You are so far off. His claim to fame isn't the tuck rule. His claim to fame is winning 3 SBs and being 12-1 in the playoffs. The Tuck Rule helped but what about the other years?I really don't think you guys are getting it. You can't just plug a Carr or Ryan Leaf, etc into a system and think they will win. You have to have a guy who knows the system and can work in the pocket. You basically are finding every excuse in the book. Montana had the father of the west coast offense as his coach, does that make him less worthy? Vinieteri is nothing without Brady either. It goes both ways. Who has to throw the 4th and 12 pass? Man, seriously do you think this is just easy for QBs to do?This is frustrating. By throwing out these arguments you are making fodder for any great QB out there. There have been higher rated QBs with much more talent and HOF coaches and I don't see you tearing them down. Seriously, I'll listen when someone can make a real argument. Aikman, Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, Favre, Steve Young, etc, etc, etc..all great QBs on teams with crazy talent and great coaches. If you are going to do this then you can say there are no special QBs. I've been watching since 1975 and we can go through it all day. As I've said, I could care less but I love football and I just don't get the arguments. Not all QBs can do these things, that is why there are special ones. Late Mr. Tex:)

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 07:03 PM
me and my dad weren't even worried when Brady got the ball with 1 minute left....NE was down by 4 and that means he'd have to put them in the endzone, and I could never recall him doing that.....

Umm..it may not be last second but 11 points in the 4th quarter last week, including a TD pass to put them up with 4 minutes left is pretty good. Go through the Top 5 here and see what I'm missing. Look at the stats and the guys who he was throwing to. Viniteiri doesn't get the kicks if not for perfect plans and execution. Again, I could care less about Brady or Manning...neither on my team. From a historical football standpoint though, I'm not sure where people get their info. Especially when he has 24 comebacks.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=177958

You guys have a good one. I'm sure I'll be told that it was JR Redmon that deserves all the credit..lol. Take care.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 07:19 PM
none of those reasons have anything to do at all with manning's ability on the field. or brady's ability on the field, for that matter.

why is that when people talk about how good a quarterback is, they always look to the teammates first?

Yes they do. And here's the resaon why those reasons are reasons why Manning is better than Brady:

You have to look at all the players and the team, because you are trying to isolate out the value of the QB in itself. Since the QB doesn't play the game by himself, you compare the values of the rest of the team. IE the coach, the defense, the kickers, etc.

And we don't look at the rest of the players first. We look at their individual statistics first.. of which Manning's are superior.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 07:28 PM
The measure of a great QB:

Always feeling like you have a shot.

O heavens to Betsy, NOOoooo. Say it ain't so.

That would mean Carr and Mark Malone are great QBs.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 07:43 PM
Umm..it may not be last second but 11 points in the 4th quarter last week, including a TD pass to put them up with 4 minutes left is pretty good. Go through the Top 5 here and see what I'm missing. Look at the stats and the guys who he was throwing to. Viniteiri doesn't get the kicks if not for perfect plans and execution. Again, I could care less about Brady or Manning...neither on my team. From a historical football standpoint though, I'm not sure where people get their info. Especially when he has 24 comebacks.

http://patriots.bostonherald.com/patriots/view.bg?articleid=177958

You guys have a good one. I'm sure I'll be told that it was JR Redmon that deserves all the credit..lol. Take care.

The debate is not about whether or not Brady is good or pretty good. The debate is about whether Manning is better than Brady. Manning VS Brady.

In that link Brady has to have the field goal to make the win in 4 of his top 5 moments. Often what I see with him is getting the ball with fairly good field position ( because his special teams are normally pretty good ) and then only having to move the ball 20 or 30 yards for the kill... as opposed to having to drive the length of the field, scoring a TD, and lifting his team from the jaws of certain defeat.

Like Elway has.

or the text book example of that yankee Terrapin.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 08:08 PM
The debate is not about whether or not Brady is good or pretty good. The debate is about whether Manning is better than Brady. Manning VS Brady.

In that link Brady has to have the field goal to make the win in 4 of his top 5 moments. Often what I see with him is getting the ball with fairly good field position ( because his special teams are normally pretty good ) and then only having to move the ball 20 or 30 yards for the kill... as opposed to having to drive the length of the field, scoring a TD, and lifting his team from the jaws of certain defeat.

Like Elway has.

or the text book example of that yankee Terrapin.

Did you read the comebacks? He moved more than 30 yards and with the game on the line in an NFL game..especially SBs and championship games it is easier said than done. In each one he got the team in the position to win. Seriously, do you guys really think that the game is that easy?Unreal. Ask any NFL player. If it was easy then why did Manning choke at it in every game until this week? I'm stunned at the thought process here. He has 24 comebacks. So you think the media, the other players in the league, the coaches, etc are all wrong to call him Captain Comeback and that he is just not as good as Manning because of stats?Stats put up in an offense where they throw a ton and you have 2 of the best receivers in the game and up until last year, a top 3 running back?Go back a ways and look at guys "stats" over the years. SB winners. You will see what I'm talking about. I'll take the winner with the rings over the guy who throws 50 times a game and has a ton of yards and TD any day of the week. Do you think Aikman, Bradshaw, Staubach, etc were the best stat guys in their day?No, they won games by making plays when they needed to. Manning is a great QB but stats alone don't make a QB. It is a fact that has been in the NFL for a long time. No one is taking anything away from Manning but the excuses against Brady have zero merit and aren't even real arguments. I'm not going to break down every comeback in history but you know that with time running out and the other team having a lead in the biggest game of everyones life that the QB has to still make throws and get down the field?Anyways, good to talk football. Have a good one.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 09:36 PM
Did you read the comebacks? He moved more than 30 yards and with the game on the line in an NFL game..especially SBs and championship games it is easier said than done. -----Anyways, good to talk football. Have a good one.

Yes, I did.

I think the thing that you are caught up on is that if I say Manning is better than Brady that means Brady is a pansie Carr wannabe.

That's not the case.

Let me put it this way:

I am down by 2 points, have a minute left to play, and have 92 yards to go. My kicker is Scott Norwood and the holder is Tony Romo. I have a choice to pick who my quarterback will be:

A) John Elway
B) Peyton Manning
C) Tom Brady
D) Joe Montana

C is the last option I would take.

HOWEVER

if I had to choose between

A) David Carr
B) Mark Malone
C) Ron Jaworski
D) Tom Brady

D hands down everytime.

HoustonFrog
01-22-2007, 09:46 PM
Actually I didn't assume anyone thought he was a pansy. It is really a question between two great QBs. Neither guy is someone I have to watch to tell you the truth. I have just argued strongly for Brady because you really can't fake results and in this parity filled league where you are constantly revamping and losing key players I think what he has done is special. Mannings stats are great but I also have seen him lay stinkers against other top teams. I like arguing football so it doesn't bother me what side people are on. It only bothered me that people would try and downgrade a player due to things that really don't matter. But to answer your first question he would be the 3rd one I'd take until I see Manning do it consistently. Yesterday he was a stud. Up until then he has saved his worst games for the biggest stage.

TwinSisters
01-22-2007, 10:08 PM
meh...

maybe so.

I have watched Manning since his days at Tennessee, so on that account I cannot say that I would wager any appendages on him winning a game for me either ( you know, when the chips were down.. I would be sweatin brother! ).

BUT then again... I have seen Manning just raze teams like no other in the NFL. I mean shred them up like they were straight out the CFL or something. Brady much less so in this department.

Mr teX
01-23-2007, 08:42 AM
Actually I didn't assume anyone thought he was a pansy. It is really a question between two great QBs. Neither guy is someone I have to watch to tell you the truth. I have just argued strongly for Brady because you really can't fake results and in this parity filled league where you are constantly revamping and losing key players I think what he has done is special. Mannings stats are great but I also have seen him lay stinkers against other top teams. I like arguing football so it doesn't bother me what side people are on. It only bothered me that people would try and downgrade a player due to things that really don't matter. But to answer your first question he would be the 3rd one I'd take until I see Manning do it consistently. Yesterday he was a stud. Up until then he has saved his worst games for the biggest stage.

All, i'm saying is that Brady to me when i consider everything, is mainly a product of the Patriot mystique as of the last 6-7 years................ a mystique in which he helped create, but also a mystique that goes far beyond him. This includes Kraft refusing to over pay for guys down to the scouting team who do a good job helping to replace big time players that leave. No one is oversimplifying anything, & no one is saying that you can plug in a David Carr or Akili Smith & get the same results. I've stated in other threads that Brady is a HOFer & rightfully so, he's a key kog in that machinery up there. But, i think that if you plugged in any decent QB such as a trent green, dree brees or even a hasselbeck, you could come pretty close to what brady has done there.

Double Barrel
01-23-2007, 11:44 AM
ESPN keeps saying that last Sunday was Manning's first 4th qtr. comeback to win a game.

Can anyone verify if this information is true? Or is it just a post-season career record? I'd find it hard to believe that he's never engineered a 4th qtr. comeback in his entire pro career.


******edit: o.k., must be a post-season stat, because I found the following on the Colts website:

has directed 23 fourth-quarter and overtime game-winning drives in which he has rallied team from a fourth-quarter deficit or tie to win

Source (http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=bio&player_id=8)

Double Barrel
01-23-2007, 11:52 AM
More from the Colts site:

in 122 games, Manning and Harrison have connected on 783 passes for 10,542 yards and 94 TDs, the most completions, yards and touchdowns by a tandem in NFL history…Manning and Harrison passed Jim Kelly and Andre Reed’s mark of 663 passes vs. Minnesota 11/8/04 and Kelly and Reed’s yardage mark 9/25/05 vs. Cleveland…Manning and Harrison snapped Steve Young and Jerry Rice’s NFL mark of 85 TDs by a QB-WR tandem 10/17/05 vs. St. Louis (Kelly and Reed had 147 games together, while Young and Rice had 137 games together)…

I have to wonder what Brady's stats would be like if he had a future HoF WR his entire career catching his passes? Manning's success is directly tied to his own abilities, no doubt, but you simply cannot overlook the importance of Marvin Harrison in that equation.

Huge
01-23-2007, 11:52 AM
ESPN keeps saying that last Sunday was Manning's first 4th qtr. comeback to win a game.

Can anyone verify if this information is true? Or is it just a post-season career record? I'd find it hard to believe that he's never engineered a 4th qtr. comeback in his entire pro career.
Edited...

Double Barrel
01-23-2007, 11:53 AM
Edited...

Thanks, Huge. Found it while you were typing. :)

Huge
01-23-2007, 11:59 AM
I have to wonder what Brady's stats would be like if he had a future HoF WR his entire career catching his passes? Manning's success is directly tied to his own abilities, no doubt, but you simply cannot overlook the importance of Marvin Harrison in that equation.
On the flip side, could you argue that Harrison is bound for the Hall of Fame because he's had Manning as his QB for the majority of his career?

He didn't have his first 1,000 yard season until his 4th year. Is it a coincidence that that happened to be Peyton's 2nd year with the Colts?

The same can be said of Brandon Stokley. Very average WR for his career. Then he winds up in Indy and puts up over 1,000 yards and 10 TDs in '04.

So do the WRs make the QB or is it the other way around?

TwinSisters
01-23-2007, 11:59 AM
ESPN keeps saying that last Sunday was Manning's first 4th qtr. comeback to win a game.

Good.

I knew I was going to get some good karma feedback here soon... for the next 15 years, I will see the Patriots on comeback specials instead of the Bills.

TwinSisters
01-23-2007, 12:06 PM
On the flip side, could you argue that Harrison is bound for the Hall of Fame because he's had Manning as his QB for the majority of his career? So do the WRs make the QB or is it the other way around?

In most cases it is the QB I think.

John Jefferson.

Is on the cover of SI with Fouts. Wants money... and then gets stuck with Lynn Dickey to fade away in obscurity.

run-david-run
01-23-2007, 12:13 PM
Another point no one considers: Maybe the Colts offense is a as good as it is directly because of Manning. Who has Dallas Clark before the Colts? Ben Utech? Brandon Fletcher? Hell, Wayne didnt even have much hype until the second year with the Colts when he got the offense down. Granted, Marvin Harrison is probably a HoFer with most any team, but there is no way of knowing where the skill of Wayne, or Stokley or Clark, begins and where the influance of Manning ends. Look at Edge now in Arizona, look at him with the Colts. Joseph Addai and Domanic Rhodes both look like very good running backs now. Everyone know no QB means more to his offense then Peyton to the Colts, is it that far of a reach to assume that he makes the rest of his offense greater then the sum of its parts because he is that good and that smart?

PS- there is no doubt the same happens with NE and Brady, just saying dont take the "Colts have more talent" thing for granted.

Edit: didnt see Huge's post when i wrote this, same train of thought

Mr teX
01-23-2007, 12:22 PM
ESPN keeps saying that last Sunday was Manning's first 4th qtr. comeback to win a game.

Can anyone verify if this information is true? Or is it just a post-season career record? I'd find it hard to believe that he's never engineered a 4th qtr. comeback in his entire pro career.


******edit: o.k., must be a post-season stat, because I found the following on the Colts website:



Source (http://www.colts.com/sub.cfm?page=bio&player_id=8)


It's definitetly a first for the post-season. Don't remember his 28 pt. 4th quarter comeback against Tampa Bay on Monday night a few years ago?

Mr teX
01-23-2007, 12:30 PM
On the flip side, could you argue that Harrison is bound for the Hall of Fame because he's had Manning as his QB for the majority of his career?

He didn't have his first 1,000 yard season until his 4th year. Is it a coincidence that that happened to be Peyton's 2nd year with the Colts?

The same can be said of Brandon Stokley. Very average WR for his career. Then he winds up in Indy and puts up over 1,000 yards and 10 TDs in '04.

So do the WRs make the QB or is it the other way around?


Ehh, to me it depends on how accurate the QB is mostly. If you've got a guy that throws a WR the ball in the vicinity & the WR makes a play on it, then it's the reciever. (kinda like Moss on a deep route tripled covered). But if your Qb is accurate & timely with the ball, its more likely the QB. Which is why i say that talent at your WR spots in this case doesn't matter b/c both guys are extremely accurate.

The Dream
01-23-2007, 02:32 PM
Yes, I did.

I think the thing that you are caught up on is that if I say Manning is better than Brady that means Brady is a pansie Carr wannabe.

That's not the case.

Let me put it this way:

I am down by 2 points, have a minute left to play, and have 92 yards to go. My kicker is Scott Norwood and the holder is Tony Romo. I have a choice to pick who my quarterback will be:

A) John Elway
B) Peyton Manning
C) Tom Brady
D) Joe Montana

C is the last option I would take.

HOWEVER

if I had to choose between

A) David Carr
B) Mark Malone
C) Ron Jaworski
D) Tom Brady

D hands down everytime.


exactly.....I've never seen brady shred apart an entire offense like a Manning, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre....he's just not in their league when it comes to that....

kastofsna
01-23-2007, 02:58 PM
how can you have not seen that?? have you not been watching football the past 5 years??

The Dream
01-23-2007, 03:16 PM
yes I have and I've never/rarely seen Brady make defenses look silly like any of those other QB's that I mentioned.

Double Barrel
01-23-2007, 03:25 PM
On the flip side, could you argue that Harrison is bound for the Hall of Fame because he's had Manning as his QB for the majority of his career?

He didn't have his first 1,000 yard season until his 4th year. Is it a coincidence that that happened to be Peyton's 2nd year with the Colts?

The same can be said of Brandon Stokley. Very average WR for his career. Then he winds up in Indy and puts up over 1,000 yards and 10 TDs in '04.

So do the WRs make the QB or is it the other way around?

Good points...it's hand in glove, really.

Although I seriously doubt Manning would have the same luck if it was a Jabar Gaffney instead of Marvin Harrison. Some of MH's catches are out of this world spectacular, so I think he'd be a HoF WR on any team.

TwinSisters
01-23-2007, 03:55 PM
Although I seriously doubt Manning would have the same luck if it was a Jabar Gaffney instead of Marvin Harrison. Some of MH's catches are out of this world spectacular, so I think he'd be a HoF WR on any team.

I wonder if you would say the same thing about Randy Moss or even Chris Carter. Or does Harrison's demeanour colour your perception of his abilities?

Well actually I think I know what you would say... but would you think it, I guess is the real question.

edit:
Even better: What's the difference between Chris Carter and Jerry Rice?
Had Carter played with Joe, Young, and Garcia with Owens
and
Rice played with the long string of guys that the Vikes helmed ( namely that bum Wade Wilson, a beat up McMahon, Gannon, Johnson, etc. )

Would Carter be the King of All Widouts and Rice the Duke.

Double Barrel
01-23-2007, 04:13 PM
I wonder if you would say the same thing about Randy Moss or even Chris Carter. Or does Harrison's demeanour colour your perception of his abilities?

Well actually I think I know what you would say... but would you think it, I guess is the real question.

Not really. With the exception of TO, I don't have any animosity towards individual football players.

Harrison's highlight reels are simply amazing. Lots of one handed catches, near impossible stretches, and he's got that finesse on his feet to stay in bounds. I just think he's an amazing WR, and honestly, I don't know much about his personal life since he's so quiet and media shy.

Randy Moss is a sad case, because he's got the raw talent to be in the top 5 WRs in today's NFL. But he's a head case, and can't overcome his own mental hurdles.

Chris Carter is a badass, too, and I'd say he's up their as one of the all-time greats, IMO.

The Dream
01-23-2007, 04:20 PM
I always liked Chris Carter more than Jerry Rice and I thought he was in his league....

TwinSisters
01-24-2007, 12:55 PM
I always liked Chris Carter more than Jerry Rice and I thought he was in his league....

alright time to whittle on this stick some more...

HOF WR... for sure plays into it. But I think by using Rice-Carter ( Carter who had his best years with a HOF QB and the Harrison years without Manning ), we can minimalize the ability of WRs to the same level as that of good defense, coach, etc.

To advance a Manning over Brady argument:
Something new that the NFL has done this year is include situational stats in the players logs at NFL.com

I looked at Grossman, Brady, Carr, and Manning passer rating in the "behind by 1 to 8 points" category.

of the 4 QBs you can see marked change in Manning over the other guys in that his rating actually goes up in this situation, while the others go down.

Grossman being the worse of the lot.
29.4 on 50 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
102 when ahead
49 when behind

Manning
121 on 18 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
93 when ahead
106 when behind

Brady
67 on 59 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
100 when ahead
72 when behind

Carr
53 on 59 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
79 when ahead
79 when behind

( Granted I didn't look at the sample rate all that closely and of course you could lay this back on Brady's WRs citing Caldwell that appears to freeze up when the chips are down )

and of course this is only one season.

I score Manning over Brady when the going gets tough

real
01-24-2007, 01:02 PM
alright time to whittle on this stick some more...

HOF WR... for sure plays into it. But I think by using Rice-Carter ( Carter who had his best years with a HOF QB and the Harrison years without Manning ), we can minimalize the ability of WRs to the same level as that of good defense, coach, etc.

To advance a Manning over Brady argument:
Something new that the NFL has done this year is include situational stats in the players logs at NFL.com

I looked at Grossman, Brady, Carr, and Manning passer rating in the "behind by 1 to 8 points" category.

of the 4 QBs you can see marked change in Manning over the other guys in that his rating actually goes up in this situation, while the others go down.

Grossman being the worse of the lot.
29.4 on 50 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
102 when ahead
49 when behind

Manning
121 on 18 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
93 when ahead
106 when behind

Brady
67 on 59 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
100 when ahead
72 when behind

Carr
53 on 59 attempts ( behind 1-8 )
79 when ahead
79 when behind

( Granted I didn't look at the sample rate all that closely and of course you could lay this back on Brady's WRs citing Caldwell that appears to freeze up when the chips are down )

and of course this is only one season.

I score Manning over Brady when the going gets tough

:hmmm: :confused: :um:

TwinSisters
01-24-2007, 01:15 PM
:hmmm: :confused: :um:

WHAT?

I am not drunk?!?!

EDIT:
Although I am hungry... and have to go eat now.

jerek
01-24-2007, 01:20 PM
exactly.....I've never seen brady shred apart an entire offense like a Manning, Marino, Elway, Montana, Favre....he's just not in their league when it comes to that....

I don't too often agree with Dream but I think he's spot on this time ... Brady is a good QB but I consider him more along the lines of the classic "game manager" ... makes a handful of clutch plays and won't too much make mistakes. The other guys are all first-ballot HOFers who could absolutely take over the game and own elite opposing defenses, consistently ... I've never seen Brady do that consistently.

I know we've all got our pet players but Brady IMO receives too much credit for the Patriots' superior coaching, front office, and defense. All were hallmarks of their Super Bowl runs and in every case Brady was made the face of those wins despite forgettable stat lines and play. I think he is a good and potentially elite QB but I think he receives too much credit for the Pats' success.

Double Barrel
01-24-2007, 02:29 PM
I know we've all got our pet players but Brady IMO receives too much credit for the Patriots' superior coaching, front office, and defense.

In all honestly, I've NEVER heard Brady getting any credit for the coaching, front office, or defense. He's just a QB, and a damn good one at that.

Hey, this works, too...'eh?:

I know we've all got our pet players but Montana IMO receives too much credit for the 49er's superior coaching, front office, and defense.

:shades:

The Dream
01-24-2007, 02:49 PM
Montana > Brady X 10

real
01-24-2007, 03:10 PM
watch this:

Brady > Everyone X 1,000,000,000

Double Barrel
01-24-2007, 03:51 PM
Montana > Brady X 10

heh heh, you dudes are funny :shades:

Montana > everyone else

watch this:

Brady > Everyone X 1,000,000,000

hey, let's not get emotional about it.

I knew I was dropping a bomb when I typed it, but rest assured, nobody touches Cool Joe. :bubble:

HoustonFrog
01-24-2007, 04:54 PM
I don't too often agree with Dream but I think he's spot on this time ... Brady is a good QB but I consider him more along the lines of the classic "game manager" ... makes a handful of clutch plays and won't too much make mistakes. The other guys are all first-ballot HOFers who could absolutely take over the game and own elite opposing defenses, consistently ... I've never seen Brady do that consistently.

I know we've all got our pet players but Brady IMO receives too much credit for the Patriots' superior coaching, front office, and defense. All were hallmarks of their Super Bowl runs and in every case Brady was made the face of those wins despite forgettable stat lines and play. I think he is a good and potentially elite QB but I think he receives too much credit for the Pats' success.

How were these stat lines forgettable

2004--32 of 48 for 354 and 3 TDs including getting them in position to win it

2006--23 of 33 for 236 yards and a 2 TDs

The only year he didn't have great stat lines was his first SB where he was MVP and he still led them down the field from the 17 with no timeouts for the winning FG. Sorry, but people just don't watch the guy enough or care to remember.

He also has the third highest completion percentage in SBs behind Aikman and Mantana for over 40 attempts while having the highest number of completions for one game with 32.

The Dream
01-24-2007, 05:00 PM
^^^impressive...but he's still overrated.

Double Barrel
01-24-2007, 05:04 PM
^^^impressive...but he's still overrated.

Just like Manning. :joker:

HoustonFrog
01-24-2007, 05:57 PM
^^^impressive...but he's still overrated.


I can give you Mannings............................

There you go.:)

The Dream
01-24-2007, 06:01 PM
^^lol

Huge
01-24-2007, 06:35 PM
The only year he didn't have great stat lines was his first SB where he was MVP...
That's pretty much the definition of overrated.

TwinSisters
01-24-2007, 07:11 PM
How were these stat lines forgettable

2004--32 of 48 for 354 and 3 TDs including getting them in position to win it

2006--23 of 33 for 236 yards and a 2 TDs

The only year he didn't have great stat lines was his first SB where he was MVP and he still led them down the field from the 17 with no timeouts for the winning FG. Sorry, but people just don't watch the guy enough or care to remember.

He also has the third highest completion percentage in SBs behind Aikman and Mantana for over 40 attempts while having the highest number of completions for one game with 32.

Those stat lines are forgettable now, becase of: --wait for it---
--wait--

Peyton Manning.

Now you have to throw for more than 400 yards a game and score 5 or more TDs a game to be remembered.

Manning has done that 7 and 6 times.
Brady has done it once and none.

kastofsna
01-24-2007, 09:28 PM
That's pretty much the definition of overrated.

:ok:

HoustonFrog
01-25-2007, 08:12 AM
Those stat lines are forgettable now, becase of: --wait for it---
--wait--

Peyton Manning.

Now you have to throw for more than 400 yards a game and score 5 or more TDs a game to be remembered.

Manning has done that 7 and 6 times.
Brady has done it once and none.

In the regular season..wow..so has Brady. In the playoffs he pretty much has choked until now. This is fun to keep going. Haters.

Double Barrel
01-25-2007, 10:05 AM
Now you have to throw for more than 400 yards a game and score 5 or more TDs a game to be remembered.

No, now you have to win multiple Super Bowl championships as a QB to be remembered. :shades:

Montana - no records - 4 rings
Aikman - no records - 3 rings
Bradshaw - no records - 4 rings
Brady - no records - 3 rings

as opposed to:

Marino - lots of records - no rings
Manning - lots of records - no rings....yet?

Mr teX
01-25-2007, 11:03 AM
No, now you have to win multiple Super Bowl championships as a QB to be remembered. :shades:

Montana - no records - 4 rings
Aikman - no records - 3 rings
Bradshaw - no records - 4 rings
Brady - no records - 3 rings

as opposed to:

Marino - lots of records - no rings
Manning - lots of records - no rings....yet?


you can't highlight that now & expect for it to hold up 20 years later. I'm sure in his prime he & the other guys except for brady had NFL records of 1 kind or another. besides, biting off of you earlier in the thread i can do this:

Favre - tons of records - 1 ring
Elway - records - 2 rings
etc....

By the way Manning is on his way to smashing most of all of these guys records anyway with a chance to win his 1st ring. You guys know it, if manning wins this superbowl, he'll be 1 of the all-time greats with less than half the rings brady has won.

Double Barrel
01-25-2007, 11:51 AM
you can't highlight that now & expect for it to hold up 20 years later. I'm sure in his prime he & the other guys except for brady had NFL records of 1 kind or another. besides, biting off of you earlier in the thread i can do this:

Favre - tons of records - 1 ring
Elway - records - 2 rings
etc....

By the way Manning is on his way to smashing most of all of these guys records anyway with a chance to win his 1st ring. You guys know it, if manning wins this superbowl, he'll be 1 of the all-time greats with less than half the rings brady has won.

I know, man, I'm just stiring the pot. :stirpot:

We are talking about elite talent here, and the names we've dropped are the greatest of the greats. I see both Manning and Brady as this generation's versions of football greatness, so these 'debates' are more mental sparring with each other than anything else. It's all in good fun, and every one of us (for the most part) agrees that both QBs are two the best in the NFL right now.

HoustonFrog
01-25-2007, 12:26 PM
I know, man, I'm just stiring the pot. :stirpot:

We are talking about elite talent here, and the names we've dropped are the greatest of the greats. I see both Manning and Brady as this generation's versions of football greatness, so these 'debates' are more mental sparring with each other than anything else. It's all in good fun, and every one of us (for the most part) agrees that both QBs are two the best in the NFL right now.

DB, that has been my point all along. Debate the two for football's sake because it is fun but both guys are incredible QBS.

TwinSisters
01-25-2007, 12:32 PM
In the regular season..wow..so has Brady. In the playoffs he pretty much has choked until now. This is fun to keep going. Haters.

No,no... Brady doesn't have those string of stand out games.

I mean I didn't exactly go through their entire record books for an exact count, but I did glance over all of the game stats from 2000 till now. 400 yards games stuck out and 5 TD games stuck out.

Brady only had one 400 yard game in his entire career. ( granted I could've missed one or two... but that doesn't matter when Manning can still double, triple, or quadruple that )
---

I was late getting to the Rings part.

I second Favre ...only one ring, but I doubt he will be forgotten or as forgettable as Bart Starr has been with two rings. Or Bob Griese... even Jim Plunkett. ( I bet there is even one that I forgot to mention )

Mr teX
01-25-2007, 12:47 PM
I know, man, I'm just stiring the pot. :stirpot:

We are talking about elite talent here, and the names we've dropped are the greatest of the greats. I see both Manning and Brady as this generation's versions of football greatness, so these 'debates' are more mental sparring with each other than anything else. It's all in good fun, and every one of us (for the most part) agrees that both QBs are two the best in the NFL right now.



I know, but like houston frog, i've been having fun these last couple of days with this, so it's no biggie to me. We've all acknowledged each other's case at some point but it's just interesting to see which side of the fence people fall on & why. Reminds me of Montana vs. Marino, 1 guy has all the rings the other has all the records.

HoustonFrog
01-25-2007, 12:59 PM
I know, but like houston frog, i've been having fun these last couple of days with this, so it's no biggie to me. We've all acknowledged each other's case at some point but it's just interesting to see which side of the fence people fall on & why. Reminds me of Montana vs. Marino, 1 guy has all the rings the other has all the records.

At least it is a fun football topic that can be debated without hearing about Bush, Carr and #1 picks..lol

TwinSisters
01-25-2007, 07:57 PM
So what do we have here?

Manning right?

Or is the Brady Committee waiting to see if he will choke in the Super Bowl? Then they are going to roll back around with teh guns flarin'

stingray
10-28-2007, 08:42 PM
Bump...

TexansLucky13
10-28-2007, 10:23 PM
Peyton is nothing compared to Brady......

Double Barrel
12-06-2010, 10:48 AM
So...uhhh....when was the last time that Brady threw FOUR pick sixes in two games and 10 INTS in three games? :hmmm:

Texan_Bill
12-06-2010, 10:53 AM
So...uhhh....when was the last time that Brady threw FOUR pick sixes in two games and 10 INTS in three games? :hmmm:

11 in the last 3 games. :eek:

kiwitexansfan
12-06-2010, 10:57 AM
Manning is awful, they'll probably put him on waivers.

Maybe we can pick him up and let him compete with Dan'O and Leinart for a roster spot.

Mr teX
12-06-2010, 11:01 AM
So...uhhh....when was the last time that Brady threw FOUR pick sixes in two games and 10 INTS in three games? :hmmm:

Probably the same time his team had double digit wins without him.....

Double Barrel
12-06-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.... :D hehe [/chain yank]

Mr teX
12-06-2010, 12:07 PM
I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'.... :D hehe [/chain yank]

lol, i see you db.