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Tulip
01-14-2007, 11:29 AM
Nothing new or earth-shattering - just a little more salt for the wound:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4469436.html

ArlingtonTexan
01-14-2007, 11:38 AM
Nothing new or earth-shattering - just a little more salt for the wound:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4469436.html

Thanks Tulip. :gun:

Wolf
01-14-2007, 11:39 AM
http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=32579&highlight=Reeves


Reeves said it on McClains show a few weeks back

Tulip
01-14-2007, 11:58 AM
http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=32579&highlight=Reeves


Reeves said it on McClains show a few weeks back


Not exactly - McClain said it on his own show a few weeks back. And yes, I remember. Like I said, it's nothing new or earth-shattering, but there are some quotes from Reeves in the article.

touttail
01-14-2007, 11:59 AM
http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=32579&highlight=Reeves


Reeves said it on McClains show a few weeks back

I was going to say that was old news.
Apparently Mr. McNair wasted his money in hiring Reeves for guidance.
He didn't listen to him!

Bobby 119C

dtran04
01-14-2007, 12:11 PM
Let me guess....I bet he said to pick Demeco too. I also told my parents to invest in Microsoft.....yeah. Saying it after the fact means nothing to me.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 12:26 PM
Kinda funny.... I was just thinking about the Dan Reeves thing last night when I heard him on the game radio broadcast.

He was hired to go through the whole organization and make recommendations about who should stay and who should go. After hearing this, I can't help but think that he probably advised to get rid of Carr along with Capers and Casserly....but McNair wasn't having it.

I doubt we'll ever really know what was said behind closed doors.

nunusguy
01-14-2007, 12:47 PM
"I don't know if they ever asked my advice, but I looked at (Young) and told them that he was a guy they would have to consider even with David Carr there," Reeves said.
****************************
Even though we heard this awhile back from McClain and other sources, there it is right there from the horses mouth. And come on Coach, you know
Bob McNair asked you about Carr and VY and you know you gave him your
opinion.
But he is your fellow S. Carolina U. alum, and your golfing partner, your buddy.
Of course you've got his back on this and don't want to make him appear any
more foolish than he's got to feel right now for not taking your advice.
Good luck in the E-W Shrine game Coach. Enjoy yourself while your in town this week.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 12:50 PM
I'm happy we drafted Mario instead.

19-10
01-14-2007, 12:57 PM
I'm happy we drafted Mario instead.

Now that was funny, I don't care who you are. It would really suck to have Vince and all the prime time games for the next ten years at home wouldn't it? Yep Mario was the clear choice

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:09 PM
I'm serious. I like Mario. With a bum foot, he was a pretty dominant run stuffer.

Nighthawk
01-14-2007, 01:14 PM
I'm serious. I like Mario. With a bum foot, he was a pretty dominant run stuffer.

Pal, you are a no-brainer. Young was the correct choice. Some knew it then; everyone knows it now.

That McNair hired Reeves and then did not take his advice is just plain stupidity. It's pathetic. McNair may be "nicer" than Bud, but he's dumber.

hot pickle
01-14-2007, 01:22 PM
i like mario, but i'd rather have Vince

but am i the only one thats fed up with bob McNair?

the guy keeps players because he like there personality, this is football old man, we need talent

F*%$ this pisses me off now

The Dream
01-14-2007, 01:24 PM
I'm serious. I like Mario. With a bum foot, he was a pretty dominant run stuffer.

I'll pray for you......


Saying it after the fact means nothing to me.


he said it "before" the fact

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:26 PM
If you VY lovers weren't so enamorated, you would see Mario isn't the horrible bust your kind seems to make him out to be.

hot pickle
01-14-2007, 01:34 PM
If you VY lovers weren't so enamorated, you would see Mario isn't the horrible bust your kind seems to make him out to be.

I love mario, hes a good player, even with the injury he was still all over the place, but im just sayin this franchise would be better off with vince young, but bob doesnt seem to care about the franchise he wants to have a team full of friends on this team

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:34 PM
Bob's a figurehead.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:35 PM
I love mario, hes a good player, even with the injury he was still all over the place, but im just sayin this franchise would be better off with vince young, but bob doesnt seem to care about the franchise he wants to have a team full of friends on this team
In the long run, I think we're better off with Mario.

hot pickle
01-14-2007, 01:40 PM
In the long run, I think we're better off with Mario.

i think you might be pushin it on that one, but i think with not takin Vince we are 2 years behind on were we should be, cause were not gonna get a long run startin QB this season, but maybe next, and theres no way to get into the playoffs with david carr, maybe plummer but not carr

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:43 PM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.

mike moffat
01-14-2007, 01:43 PM
I too was happy that we drafted Mario. I think that VY is a very talented athlete. I just don't think that he was right for the Texans at the time. Maybe as a running back. Call me crazy. Call me a fool. Just my opinion. I hope that we keep on looking at linemen and defensive backs.
:stirpot:

The Dream
01-14-2007, 01:44 PM
If you VY lovers weren't so enamorated, you would see Mario isn't the horrible bust your kind seems to make him out to be


no one said Mario was horrible, but he's "not" Vince Young.


In the long run, I think we're better off with Mario.

and how do you come to that conclusion???? I'm just curious.

I too was happy that we drafted Mario. I think that VY is a very talented athlete. I just don't think that he was right for the Texans at the time. Maybe as a running back. Call me crazy. Call me a fool. Just my opinion. I hope that we keep on looking at linemen and defensive backs.


yeah he wasn't right for us, Vince deserves better....

hot pickle
01-14-2007, 01:47 PM
Dream there is something wrong with you, your still cryin about last years draft, give it up

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:47 PM
Let me put it this way. I'd rather have Mario than Freeney. The Colts of last season would've been nothing without Freeney. I'll let you add that up.

...and this conversation is old. Months old. Defense wins championships, great QBs don't equal great teams, blah, blah, blah. Let's just say I'm sticking with my team, I'm sticking with my guy. I've accepted that we don't have VY, since around February, and I've accepted he is the enemy, since around September. I'm anti-Titan, therefore, anti-Vince as long as he's with them.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 01:48 PM
Dream there is something wrong with you, your still cryin about last years draft, give it up
Dream likes VY like SWT likes Beyonce.

Second Honeymoon
01-14-2007, 01:51 PM
i think you might be pushin it on that one, but i think with not takin Vince we are 2 years behind on were we should be, cause were not gonna get a long run startin QB this season, but maybe next, and theres no way to get into the playoffs with david carr, maybe plummer but not carr

i had to roll with your avatar for a schmidge here...

you see that throw by Grossman?!?! great NFL this weekend

as for the whole Reeves debacle, it's just part and parcel of the McNair style of NFL ownership. He lets his pride/stubborness and relationships influence himself during the decision making process. Think about it, not only did McNair not draft Young but he locked up Carr to the longest option available off his rookie contract. Why would anyone worry about locking Carr unless they were worried about hurting David's feelings. Reeves probably said to let Carr hit the open market, draft Young, and if possible bring Carr back after he hits market. McNair did the opposite.

hot pickle
01-14-2007, 02:00 PM
glad someone's joinin up, maybe mr mcnair will look at the board one day and see our disgust and get his head out of his @$$

travfrancis
01-14-2007, 02:06 PM
:hairpull:

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:08 PM
Do you guys know how many people are in the FO? It's not just McNair, Rick Smith, and Kubiak.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:09 PM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.


yes, but you also can't have a crappy one either....and the Cowboys,Packers,49ers,Broncos,Patriots,etc. show that a great QB doesn't hurt your chances in winning the big one.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:12 PM
Dream there is something wrong with you, your still cryin about last years draft, give it up

get out the thread then.....the thread is about us passing on VY and there are people still here defending the idiotic decision that the Texans made.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:13 PM
Idiotic would be calling a draft pick bad after one year.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:16 PM
Idiotic would be calling a draft pick bad after one year.



not really......at this point everyone with a brain pretty much knows that VY will "at least" be a pretty damn good QB......he already almost led his team to the post-season in his rookie season....he can only get better.....taking Mario was and always will be a mistake.....you can tell A LOT about a player from his first season.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:20 PM
You mean like dominating with a bum foot? No team ran at Mario. That's already worth a 4th overall pick if you ask the Jets. A healthy Mario will be great. He's 1337.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:22 PM
You mean like dominating with a bum foot? No team ran at Mario. That's already worth a 4th overall pick if you ask the Jets. A healthy Mario will be great. He's 1337.

man get real, teams didn't fear Mario, there wasn't anything "dominating" that he did this year.......and "4th" overall isn't "1st" overall.

Wolf
01-14-2007, 02:24 PM
it is too bad we didn't draft Mario,Bush and young last season.. boy the Mb would be quiet
:heh:

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:24 PM
Mario is a great talent. Some day, you might see that.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:25 PM
Mario is a great talent. Some day, you might see that.

yeah that greatness will show when we actually get a great player......

Jimpster
01-14-2007, 02:27 PM
:homer: In the long run, I think we're better off with Mario.

That's the funniest statement I've read all week. Are you sure this isnt really Gary Kubiak?

Tulip
01-14-2007, 02:27 PM
Bob's a figurehead.

For whom? His investment group? They are an "investment group" for a reason - they put up the money, and he puts up a smaller portion of the money and makes the decisions.

McNair made the decision on Carr. Casserly was on his way out and Kubiak was on his way in, so they really couldn't be much help. That pretty much leaves McNair. Even though you noted later that there's more to a FO, I don't know why people ranked lower than those three would be the ones making the decision.

It's not about Mario vs. Vince. I like Mario, and I think he's going to be pretty darn good. But to choose David Carr over Vince Young - especially against the advice of the advisor who he brought in because supposedly he didn't know who/what was the problem with his franchise - now that's where I take issue.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:32 PM
my biggest beef (besides Carr) is that I really don't see Mario becoming a "great" player that was worthy of the first pick in a loaded draft....I think he might be a good player, but there are certain things that I didn't see from him this year that makes me think that he won't be "great"

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:35 PM
For whom? His investment group? They are an "investment group" for a reason - they put up the money, and he puts up a smaller portion of the money and makes the decisions.

McNair made the decision on Carr. Casserly was on his way out and Kubiak was on his way in, so they really couldn't be much help. That pretty much leaves McNair. Even though you noted later that there's more to a FO, I don't know why people ranked lower than those three would be the ones making the decision.

It's not about Mario vs. Vince. I like Mario, and I think he's going to be pretty darn good. But to choose David Carr over Vince Young - especially against the advice of the advisor who he brought in because supposedly he didn't know who/what was the problem with his franchise - now that's where I take issue.
McNair dishes out a lot of dough to people who make the decision with him, or in some cases, for him.

I agree with you about the Carr/Young thing. I've known for about a year that we wouldn't get Young because of the arrogance to keep Carr. Reeves may have been for Young, but he was also for Carr. Carr was the cheaper option, but it was still a bad desicion. Not just because we could have had Young, Leinart, Cutler, Kellen Clemens, etc., but because we're forced to keep Carr for three years on the payroll or on the team.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:37 PM
my biggest beef (besides Carr) is that I really don't see Mario becoming a "great" player that was worthy of the first pick in a loaded draft....I think he might be a good player, but there are certain things that I didn't see from him this year that makes me think that he won't be "great"
Where as I, along with many others, saw plays that made us think Mario would be great. Question that and I'll bring up quotes from coaches saying the same thing. While I think Young will be what Mike Vick was supposed to be, I also think Mario will be great. Young was just healthier this season.

tulexan
01-14-2007, 02:37 PM
my biggest beef (besides Carr) is that I really don't see Mario becoming a "great" player that was worthy of the first pick in a loaded draft....I think he might be a good player, but there are certain things that I didn't see from him this year that makes me think that he won't be "great"

It's kind of hard to show your full potential when you have a bad foot injury.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:42 PM
Young was just better this season.


you're correct.


It's kind of hard to show your full potential when you have a bad foot injury.

it's the NFL, players stay injured....even before the "injury" Mario didn't impress me enough to make me think he was worth the first pick

threetoedpete
01-14-2007, 02:43 PM
Some how I knew you couldn't go a whole week without throwing another one of these threads up. Mind Boggeling.

How many 52%'s is the water walker going to have to put up before you will say.."we were wrong" . Agreed the best thing that happened in the draft last year was we got the Reggie White prospect. Thumb tacks got the RB/WR masquerading as a passer. We should own them for the next ten years. Or untill rag top dies. And they can say it all they want that he can......but Bush still can't operate between the tackles. They paid alot for an Eric Metcaf wanna be.

tulexan
01-14-2007, 02:44 PM
you're correct.




it's the NFL, players stay injured....even before the "injury" Mario didn't impress me enough to make me think he was worth the first pick

OK, lets see how Vince does playing with Mario's foot injury for half of a season. I can almost guarantee you that he would look terrible.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 02:50 PM
Some how I knew you couldn't go a whole week without throwing another on of these threads up. Mind Boggeling.

How many 52%'s is the water walker going to have to put up before you will say.."we were wrong" . Agreed the best thing that happened in the draft last year was we got the Reggie White prospect. Thumb tacks got the RB/WR masquerading as a passer. We should own them for the next ten years. Or untill rag top dies. And they can say it all they want that he can......but Bush still can't operate between the tackles. They paid alot for an Eric Metcaf wanna be.

The bottom line is this:

Vince Young and Reggie Bush made a hell of a lot more of an impact than the one Mario made here.

To deny that is ignorant.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:50 PM
OK, lets see how Vince does playing with Mario's foot injury for half of a season. I can almost guarantee you that he would look terrible.
Some guys won't even try playing with it..

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:51 PM
The bottom line is this:

Vince Young and Reggie Bush made a hell of a lot more of an impact than the one Mario made here.

To deny that is ignorant.
Mario had a severe foot injury. To ignore that is arrogance to say Mario sucks.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 02:52 PM
Some how I knew you couldn't go a whole week without throwing another one of these threads up. Mind Boggeling.

How many 52%'s is the water walker going to have to put up before you will say.."we were wrong" . Agreed the best thing that happened in the draft last year was we got the Reggie White prospect. Thumb tacks got the RB/WR masquerading as a passer. We should own them for the next ten years. Or untill rag top dies. And they can say it all they want that he can......but Bush still can't operate between the tackles. They paid alot for an Eric Metcaf wanna be.
Bush will be good, but not enough to match the hype. He has his faults, but he'll get highlights.

The Dream
01-14-2007, 02:53 PM
Mario had a severe foot injury. To ignore that is arrogance to say Mario sucks.

I didn't say he sucked, I just claimed that he wasn't worth the first pick.....QBs impact a game much more then a lineman.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 02:54 PM
The bottom line is this:

Vince Young and Reggie Bush made a hell of a lot more of an impact than the one Mario made here.

To deny that is ignorant.

Let me clarify here....

By no means am I trying to throw Mario under the bus.

By the nature of their positions, Mario just get the opportunity to make big plays and therefor has less to do with wins and losses.

Wolf
01-14-2007, 02:54 PM
so what is he worth? not the 1st but maybe the 3rd overall?

threetoedpete
01-14-2007, 02:55 PM
The bottom line is this:

Vince Young and Reggie Bush made a hell of a lot more of an impact than the one Mario made here.

To deny that is ignorant.

As is to denny the lack of production by both. History will prove who had the man love here. And who just didn't give a damn any more to argue with a fool.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 02:56 PM
An aside....

I have a feeling that the argument would still be Bush vs. Young had we drafted Bush.

People around Houston and Texas would still be saying that we blew it.

ledzeppelin229
01-14-2007, 02:58 PM
Young and Bush both play positions that have more recognizable, immediate impact. I think it's too early to make a judgment on Mario's entire career....Young has definitely shown the intangibles that everyone was clamoring for but I still think he needs to improve as a passer. That should come with time though. Bush's presence on some of the highlight reels has shown he has what it takes.

Anyway...if Mario can do what he did to Bob Whitfield a little more often, I think we'll be in good shape. I do have a problem though if we had Vince rated higher and passed on him just because McNair was stubbornly convinced David's nice guy family man character would make him succeed here. That's an issue with the decision making though and it's ignorant for anyone to hold that against Mario.

JAXwithanX
01-14-2007, 03:07 PM
Anyone who is disheartened by the way Mario performed this year is an *****. And i truly believe he will live up to being worth a number 1 pick. But I'm not going to lie, it is very hard not to go back and pull up threads and posts from a lot of current posters and quote the idiotic things they said about VY (i mean it was ridiculous how people would bomb on him, its one thing to not think we need him on the team, another thing to just bomb on him as a person and athlete). It is amazingly refreshing to have him will his team to at least 4 wins alone, and be OROY.

And i'm not saying you should love someone blindly because they are a hometown kid, but it should mean something. But the way people acted about him on this board was just unreal. Like he had personally ruined their own chance in the NFL.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 03:08 PM
As is to denny the lack of production by both.

Both teams were 3 win teams last year. One has made it to the NFC Championship and the other one was a playoff contender. It would be safe to say that both guys have produced. And greatly improved their teams in the process.

History will prove who had the man love here. And who just didn't give a damn any more to argue with a fool.

I usually understand about half of what you write...until you start speaking in riddles.

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 03:10 PM
Young and Bush both play positions that have more recognizable, immediate impact.

Quarterback takes the longest time in the NFL to acclimate to, by far. saying Vince plays a more immediate impact position than Mario is crazy.

A DE can dominate on physical skills alone. Its very comparable to a RB in that way. its not ridiculous to expect immediate production from a high draft pick at DE lauded for his physical skills

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 03:10 PM
No matter who we drafted, thousands, hundreds of thousands, likely millions would still call us ignorant for not drafting (insert name here.)

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 03:12 PM
Quarterback takes the longest time in the NFL to acclimate to, by far. saying Vince plays a more immediate impact position than Mario is crazy.

A DE can dominate on physical skills alone. Its very comparable to a RB in that way. its not ridiculous to expect immediate production from a high draft pick at DE lauded for his physical skills
That is wrong on so many levels. Mario is raw, most scouts said he needed another year in school. Plenty of athletic DEs are mediocre. Strength is useless without proper technique.

JAXwithanX
01-14-2007, 03:19 PM
I agree. I'm no D-Line coach, but that whole pure physical domination thing is the exact opposite of everything I've ever heard about the position.

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 03:24 PM
That is wrong on so many levels. Mario is raw, most scouts said he needed another year in school. Plenty of athletic DEs are mediocre. Strength is useless without proper technique.


what??? this is such revisionist thinking. Mario was drafted because we wanted a player that could come in and play right away.

you are just making stuff up now.
Who are these scouts, a player doesnt go #1 overall if they need another year in school. raw? yes. unprepared? no.

superior strength and speed can allow a passrusher to dominate without great technique, denying this is ridiculous. Also saying "plenty of athletic ends are mediocre" is a desperate attempt to validate his play, when the fact is, he is more than just athletic and his strengths were supposed to allow him to dominate without great technique.

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 03:26 PM
I agree. I'm no D-Line coach, but that whole pure physical domination thing is the exact opposite of everything I've ever heard about the position.


really? Havign superior athleticism can make up for poor technique. Julius Peppers his rookie year was far from technically savvy, and relied on his speed, quickness, and strength.

Bongo59
01-14-2007, 03:35 PM
Nothing new or earth-shattering - just a little more salt for the wound:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4469436.htmlbongo told yall that 6 months ago................

ledzeppelin229
01-14-2007, 03:37 PM
Quarterback takes the longest time in the NFL to acclimate to, by far. saying Vince plays a more immediate impact position than Mario is crazy.

A DE can dominate on physical skills alone. Its very comparable to a RB in that way. its not ridiculous to expect immediate production from a high draft pick at DE lauded for his physical skills

If QB is #1 then a DE is #2. See Michael Strahan's one sack his rookie year as one example. Not everyone is Julius Peppers their rookie year. And how can you say QB doesn't make a more immediate impact? He touches the ball on every single offensive snap. And as far as Mario's physical skills, I think we did see glimpses of it. But we still haven't seen him at 100% for a full season due to the plantar fascitis. I think that's something that has to be taken into account. People are being impatient with Mario because they are bitter about the pick.

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 03:42 PM
If QB is #1 then a DE is #2. See Michael Strahan's one sack his rookie year as one example. Not everyone is Julius Peppers their rookie year. And how can you say QB doesn't make a more immediate impact? He touches the ball on every single offensive snap. And as far as Mario's physical skills, I think we did see glimpses of it. But we still haven't seen him at 100% for a full season due to the plantar fascitis. I think that's something that has to be taken into account. People are being impatient with Mario because they are bitter about the pick.


By immediate impact, i think of how long it takes them to make an impact after being drafted. Pretty much no qb is expected to play much their rookie year.

positions that rely on scheme and technique more than physical skills always have longer "break-in" periods.

And I think most people are mad about the attitude some fans have. Mario wasnt drafted to be a run stuffer or a line clogger, his pass-rushing was the reason we got him. not we sit here the very next season and we may spend another top 10 pick on a pass rusher! Mario was supposed to give us a pass-rush, not make us invest more into the dline

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 03:43 PM
bongo told yall that 6 months ago................

Easy there, Nostradamus... it was more like 2 months ago. It was still before McClain said anything about it.

The first time I ever heard about this was in one of your posts.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 03:47 PM
Mario was supposed to give us a pass-rush, not make us invest more into the dline

Not sure about this, but I think that has more to do with how little we got from Travis Johnson.

I don't expect to see him or Seth Payne back here next year...or at least starting.

leachmtb
01-14-2007, 03:53 PM
The bottom line is this:

Vince Young and Reggie Bush made a hell of a lot more of an impact than the one Mario made here.

To deny that is ignorant.

No, I'm sorry. To affirm that as you just did without any evidence other than their freaking records is ignorant. You are probably the same person that talks about how stats lie and don't tell the whole story, so then tell the whole story yourself.

New Orleans is not incredible right now because they got Reggie Bush. The guy did nothing all season long until the last 5 games. Even then, he is only better as a returner and reciever. They are this much better because they actually have a home, they have a Pro-Bowl Quarterback and got rid of the worst quarterback in the league (and if you say that David Carr is, I will flip out, because Aaron Brooks is definitely worse than Carr). Reggie Bush did not turn them around or make that big of an impact.

Vince Young had a much higher impact on the Titans than Reggie Bush did on the Saints. But, to say that Mario is not a good choice based upon that is ridiculous. Vince Young is in a position where he should make a higher impact than Mario. Actually, if you all were watching the game in Houston between the Titans and the Texans, all the times that Vince tried to run to Mario's side, (I think with the exception of once), Mario strung him out and kept him to a 3 yard gain or less. Mario made impacts, but people have the choice of going away from him, it is a different story on offense.

I'm sorry that Vince wasn't picked. I think that he is a good QB, but I don't think that he will be any better than Steve McNair. Not that David Carr is anywhere near either of them. I have heard some of the most ridiculous arguments over how the Texans are the stupidest people ever for having made their draft decisions the way that they did, but that is not right. Mario plays hard, he's had flashes of brilliance before he was playing injured (which by the way, was about the same time that Vince started to look like a capable player himself - so to write him off would be assanine). So, please stop surmising about how the Texans made the biggest mistake ever. They might not have picked the right guy, but they certainly did not pick the wrong one. Mario is not Sam Bowie; he is not Ryan Leaf (which by the way San Diego bounced back from pretty nicely). He is Mario Williams a rookie who was our best defensive lineman with a crappy supporting cast and an injury. So, the next time you make an argument about Vince freaking Young, please don't even try to start about how Mario sucks, because you are immediately showing your cards - that you know very little about Football as a team sport.



And, whoever said that the Texans should trade for Cedric Benson - please take your burnt orange glasses off and realize that at the very best, Cedric Benson is as equally incapable as David Carr.

Napa Auto Parts
01-14-2007, 04:18 PM
If you VY lovers weren't so enamorated, you would see Mario isn't the horrible bust your kind seems to make him out to be.



i dont think none of us consider him a horrible player but it just sucks for him that the 2nd and 3rd pick look so much better than him and from the looks of it we might never live up this draft having bush and young play the way they do.:hides:

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 04:32 PM
And, whoever said that the Texans should trade for Cedric Benson - please take your burnt orange glasses off and realize that at the very best, Cedric Benson is as equally incapable as David Carr.

that makes absolutely no sense.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 05:04 PM
This will never end but I will say this..when you have the absolute #1 pick, there is no room to get cute. Your team is horrible and you take the best athlete out there. At the time you had VY, Bush and other choices. As much as Mario is a great guy and showed that he might have game after this year, it isn't the type of play you expect for the overall #1 pick. People need to realize it. It wasn't like we took him with the 5th pick. That is all I will say.

stingray
01-14-2007, 05:39 PM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.

No, but Ben is a VERY GOOD Qb... Carr is not even close to ben... And now we have no idea what the $%&* we're gonna do at Qb Position.

El Tejano
01-14-2007, 05:55 PM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.

And this year they showed that if your run game isn't there, you wont really be that good.

Ckw
01-14-2007, 05:57 PM
that makes absolutely no sense.

I guess a big word like incapable went right over the head of the poor t-sip.....

blockhead83
01-14-2007, 06:20 PM
I think I'll weigh in on this one. I think Reeves probably did tell us to take VY. I still don't think it's going to end up being the enormous gaff of a decision many are making it out to be, but it wasn't a perfect move either.

I do find it ironic that Kubiak has labeled "playmakers" an off-season priority after passing on VY and RB, two of the more proven playmakers at their respective positions in recent years, but that's not a decisive blow in this argument. Bush didn't live up to his billing, and neither did Mario. Mario was injured for half the season and had a few flashes of brilliance when healthy (the Dolphins and Giants game). Bush on the other hand was healthy, and made some great highlight reels, but isn't the best running back or wide receiver on his team. He's a great utility player, but if he ever has to carry the load as the primary back I have serious doubts about his ability to fill those shoes. I'm not sure his body could handle the beating, and I don't think he can be used in a "grind it out" style running game very well.

VY absolutely did play up to his billing, in spades. The guy is fun to watch, plays his best in the big games at the crucial times, and catalyzed a huge turnaround for his team. With 40 million in cap room and 11 draft picks coming their way to build around VY, he'll likely look like an even smarter choice next year. I've said since before the draft last year that I thought he would be good in the NFL, but I had no idea he'd be this good this fast. My problem with VY is that what makes him so electric, and such a threat on third down, his running ability, causes me some concern. Running quarterbacks have a history of getting injured and having to learn to make more plays with their arm. VY can definitely make plays with his arm, big ones, but he isn't a consistent passer. Once teams learn how to defend/contain him, or he tweaks a knee/ankle, or both (which is bound to happen eventually with the style he plays), he's going to have to adapt and consistently make plays with his arm. I don't think he's as well equipped to do that as McNair and McNabb were. He'll be better off than Vick in that respect though, IMO. His passing numbers often look like 6/14 for 140 yds and a TD. He isn't a high percentage passer, but he hits some big throws. Without the threat of his legs he's going to have to adapt, because those numbers by themselves won't get it done.

Bottom line is I'm ok with how that panned out. Mario is going to anchor our D, Bush wasn't a player worth the 1st overall pick IMO, and I think VY is a bright young star with some big challenges ahead. We can find some players at RB, I'm very confident of that. My largest concern is what we're going to do at QB, and only time will tell. Maybe we'll find a QB who'll do his job and make us forget about VY...

Toro
01-14-2007, 06:26 PM
And this year they showed that if your run game isn't there, you wont really be that good.

Willie Parker had a shade shy of 1,500 yards rushing and 13 TDs. He wasn't exactly chopped liver this year.

Also, there's no point in looking back what "SHOULD HAVE BEEN". That's not going to change the draft results, so we might as well look at the good in Mario Williams instead of dwelling over what VY and Reggie are doing.

Titan "Tack" Fan
01-14-2007, 06:30 PM
Let me put it this way. I'd rather have Mario than Freeney.

Your credibility just went out the window.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 06:33 PM
Bottom line is I'm ok with how that panned out. Mario is going to anchor our D, Bush wasn't a player worth the 1st overall pick IMO, and I think VY is a bright young star with some big challenges ahead. We can find some players at RB, I'm very confident of that. My largest concern is what we're going to do at QB, and only time will tell. Maybe we'll find a QB who'll do his job and make us forget about VY...

My problem is last year the draft was stacked with skill players..playmakers..something we needed in bunches. We passed with the absolute #1 pick to take a guy who looked good in workouts but who had question marks about his game. He wasn't a bust but didn't show #1 overall pick skill. Now we are still talking about taking D-line again and we are still lacking in playmakers. It is frustrating. I'll have to disagree too. I thought Bush came into his own the second half of the season and would have been worth all of the #1 pick. Overall if we went the route we did last season moving down would have been what I preferred. I still think Mario will be a strong but not great player for a long time. Hopefully this off season we can add to the rest of the draft though and get rid of some problems.

ASTRODOME2002
01-14-2007, 06:44 PM
For all of you Vince Young and Reggie Bush lovers, here's a few stats for ya........

Vince Young 51.5 percent passer rating (dead last in the NFL)
66.7 passer rating (30th out of 32...above only Andrew Walter and Bruce Gradkowski)

By the way, most of Vince Young's QB stats are behind David Carrs'. As a passer, Vince Young had a worse season than David Carr. Just think about that for a second...

-----------------------------------------------------------

Reggie Bush....

41 st in the NFL in rushing yards..
now before you say that he wasn't the full time back, take a look at this...
(Ron Dayne 151 rushes 612 yards)
(Reggie Bush 155 rushes 565 yards)

Bush 35.3 rushing yards per game
Wali Lundy 34 yards per game


Bush 3.6 average yards per rush
Lundy 3.8 yards per rush


Bush 6 rushing td's
Lundy 4 rushing td's


Now, Reggie Bush is a great receiver but the Texans have an offense that is geared towards an every down running back. Reggie Bush is not an every down running back.

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Texans are building their team defense first. They got 2 solid building blocks in Mario and Demeco and now they need a safety and defensive tackle. Defenses win championships. Reggie Bush and Vince Young will sell tickets.....

blockhead83
01-14-2007, 06:48 PM
My problem is last year the draft was stacked with skill players..playmakers..something we needed in bunches. We passed with the absolute #1 pick to take a guy who looked good in workouts but who had question marks about his game. He wasn't a bust but didn't show #1 overall pick skill. Now we are still talking about taking D-line again and we are still lacking in playmakers. It is frustrating. I'll have to disagree too. I thought Bush came into his own the second half of the season and would have been worth all of the #1 pick. Overall if we went the route we did last season moving down would have been what I preferred. I still think Mario will be a strong but not great player for a long time. Hopefully this off season we can add to the rest of the draft though and get rid of some problems.

I guess it comes down to what you value with your pick. I place more value in a true running back or receiver, who is outstanding at what they do. I can see why you'd really like Bush if you highly valued utility players, but I don't think they're worth the value of the 1st overall pick in the draft. Bush is pretty good at alot of things, but I don't see him as ever being great at any one thing.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 06:54 PM
I guess it comes down to what you value with your pick. I place more value in a true running back or receiver, who is outstanding at what they do. I can see why you'd really like Bush if you highly valued utility players, but I don't think they're worth the value of the 1st overall pick in the draft. Bush is pretty good at alot of things, but I don't see him as ever being great at any one thing.

Fair enough. I thought he could do alot of things in alot of parts of the game we were missing...catch, run, return(with the returner injury) and he gets defenses attention. I think my preference on here last year might have been to do what we did but only if we moved down and got some extra pick.

blockhead83
01-14-2007, 07:04 PM
Fair enough. I thought he could do alot of things in alot of parts of the game we were missing...catch, run, return(with the returner injury) and he gets defenses attention. I think my prference on here last year might have been to do what we did but only if we moved down and got some extra pick.

No doubt Bush would have made a positive impact on our offense with Carr at the helm. You look at what a guy like Domanick Davis (Williams) was able to do with David "Dink 'N Dunk" Carr running the offense, and it's not hard to imagine Bush piling up some gaudy reception numbers as well as some good ground numbers. That's just not the offense, and more importantly the kind of quarterback play I wanted to see from this team. I agree that if we could have traded down and picked up Deangelo Williams or Tamba Hali + another player etc that would have be a smart move.

NATHANHALE
01-14-2007, 07:40 PM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.


...so what does that make Carr? Besides taking the Steelers to the SB in his 3rd year, have you compared Bens' stats to Carr or any other qb's 1st 3 yrs?...take a look...

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 07:54 PM
I feel like every UT fan here wanted VY to be a , but that's about it. which is understandable.(in general) He wasn't rated as the top quarterback in the class..Leinart then young...but cutler could have been rated higher. drafting Young at 3 above the other qb's was a stretch much less #1 overall.

The other half probably wanted reggie...me included. coming up to the few days before the draft was the first time I actually read about mario and his possibility here and wasn't upset..I thought it could be a good way for the franchise to go...young still no where near in the picture..esp w/ carr here for another 2 years and a 8mill bonus.

After the season...I am glad we didn't get reggie. Not because I think he's going to be a monumental bust, or anything, but because I don't think he would have added as much value to our team than other players. period.

I would rather have mario than reggie. plain and simple. Now that the season is over...for most of us anyways. go colts!..we beat them. I like what VY did. I'm not a UT fan...actually more of an aggie. VY surprised me very much. I among with many others didnt think he would transition into the NFL quite the way he did...esp this quickly.

Looking back on the past..I might have drafted VY...if we didn't give carr a bonus...once we did that VY was out of the picture.

I also supported a trade down but again looking back on the fact I'm glad we didnt. we most likely would have missed on Mario...if we traded down and proabably wouldnt have gotten a good deal anyways.

A lot of people are hating on McNair. I think he's a standup guy and a fine owner...much better than benson and bud!! He got rid of Capers...the other coaching staff. hired all new guys. and people are still upset we have carr. I don't think it's totally mcnairs fault. for whoever said bob just wants a team of friends...capers was a good guy. very nice guy but he got rid of him. we needed a new coach so as Ricky Bobby said, "That just happened!" Things are changing around reliant...and things are changing for the better.

I have faith in the current staff that they are making things a lot better. There are a few people on here that will disagree till they die and that's fine but I know the vast majority of texans fans are pleased with the progress.

This last draft was phenominal. (say we traded down...mario was gone. say dbrick was gone. next BPA was AJ Hawk ..the best LB in the draft. we pick him.....not demeco. Man! that sucked...nothing against AJ he's really is good but I am biased!) Say we pick D'Brick...thanks Dayne for breaking the leg of the $50 million LT instead of the 3rd rder! lol only kidding.

We have so many possibilities next draft and FA..it's going to be amazing, awesome, and heartbreaking.

For all those die hard UT fans and VY fans that 'new' he would be the same winner and leader. I say half of yall were full of it. To the other half that really did know it ...awesome...he surprised me and hope he does awesome in the nfl..so long as we can contain him...that's fine.

Go mario, demeco...go texans! the foundation of the future of the texans and i'm excited!

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 07:57 PM
I find it funny that we are still talking about this.

The sad fact is if Vince Young was from Organ then we would not still be talking about it. 2100 passing yards 12 TD's and 13 Int's just doesn't impress me. Besides, we already have a guy who puts up those kind of numbers and we are trying to run him out of town.

In fact I don't get how VY even won Oroy. Colston deserved it more, 70 rec 1038 receiving yards and 8 TD's. Those are pro bowl stats from a 7th round rookie.

Just my opinion. Guess thats what happens when you have a good publicist.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 07:57 PM
No, I'm sorry. To affirm that as you just did without any evidence other than their freaking records is ignorant. You are probably the same person that talks about how stats lie and don't tell the whole story, so then tell the whole story yourself.

You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 08:00 PM
No doubt Bush would have made a positive impact on our offense with Carr at the helm. You look at what a guy like Domanick Davis (Williams) was able to do with David "Dink 'N Dunk" Carr running the offense, and it's not hard to imagine Bush piling up some gaudy reception numbers as well as some good ground numbers. That's just not the offense, and more importantly the kind of quarterback play I wanted to see from this team. I agree that if we could have traded down and picked up Deangelo Williams or Tamba Hali + another player etc that would have be a smart move.

I laughed when REggie got royally drilled with the 2nd play of the game last night. I was watching the game with 3 die hard life long saints fans and was actually rooting for the saints so dont' give me too hard of a time. It reminded me of the fact that if he played for the texans..that would have happend once a game..if he played the entire season not on the IR. I'm thankfull he's ok because I couldn't stand watching our games worrying everytime he touched the ball that he may get injured...same with VY every scramble I would be scared!

Then he had two amazing runs..the 1st down and then the TD I was like DAMN! that was nice okay you got me....

Then he fumbled the ball at the end of the game that the eagles recovered. He potentially lost the game for them in the playoffs...i kind of laughed...cuz he was the golden boy and all.

...so what does that make Carr? Besides taking the Steelers to the SB in his 3rd year, have you compared Bens' stats to Carr or any other qb's 1st 3 yrs?...take a look...


All I have to say to this is I would rather have Carr than Joey Harrington (glad we didn't draft him) and I do actually like carr over ben. Have you seen his fathead commercial? good lord that is annoying... "Hello...TV land!" wow i'd be embarrassed if Carr did that...I'd rather see him drop in the fetal position. lol

Vinny
01-14-2007, 08:02 PM
In fact I don't get how VY even won Oroy. Colston deserved it more, 70 rec 1038 receiving yards and 8 TD's. Those are pro bowl stats from a 7th round rookie.

Just my opinion. Guess thats what happens when you have a good publicist.Probably because some people actually watched the games. VY made clutch 3rd downs, threw the intermediate pass well, produced in the clutch over and over, and was responsible for 2-3 TD's a game in many of their wins and took a 0-5 team that was 9-23 the two years before he arrived within a game of the playoffs. Vince Young's rookie stats were better than John Elways rookie stats....fwiw

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 08:06 PM
You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.

Dear Lord I hope that is sarcasm.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 08:07 PM
Probably because some people actually watched the games. VY made clutch 3rd downs, threw the intermediate pass well, produced in the clutch over and over, and was responsible for 2-3 TD's a game in many of their wins and took a 0-5 team that was 9-23 the two years before he arrived within a game of the playoffs. Vince Young's rookie stats were better than John Elways rookie stats....fwiw

Could not agree more.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 08:07 PM
You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.

I have to disagree with that stats do tell the whole story..thats bs. You see a stat line of an 80 yd TD pass. Its the same as an 80 yd bomb down the field to a receiver thats a good pass. as a 5 yard slant when the slot reciever I mean Running Back reggie bush then runs for 75 yds of it. Thats bs...its mostly either all on the qb or all on the wr,

I saw colston definitly winning it except for the fact he was out for 4 games. that hurt him bad and was unfortunate. i was rooting for him. VY i was surprised...his stats were not great by any means..but i will be the first to by the crow and say he single handidly won those games. esp against us in OT. play was busted...we had great defense and the he made something out of nothing.

Slightly agree with your assesment on Bush in NO. He does help NO alot. Brees going in there was a huge addition the probably pisses the hell out of Miami now for passing on him. there receivers are good and Deuce is a monster. Reggie didn't go in a change their organization like ESPN would like you to believe. not by anymeans. but he is a great addition to have, thats it though...a luxury that they are lucky to a)get b) have the opportunity to take him not need him.

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 08:19 PM
Probably because some people actually watched the games. VY made clutch 3rd downs, threw the intermediate pass well, produced in the clutch over and over, and was responsible for 2-3 TD's a game in many of their wins and took a 0-5 team that was 9-23 the two years a game within the playoffs. Vince Young's rookie stats were better than John Elways rookie stats....fwiw

You would have to admit that it wasn't all VY either. There were games that it was the Travis Henry show or there D stepped up and won games single handedly.

Vince Young did some good things this year much the same way Rothlishberger did in his rookie season. He did enough not to lose games.

Again though, if Young was a Duck and not a Longhorn this wouldn't even be an issue.

I like building our D and thinking that someday our Dline is going to be a dominant force in the NFL.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 08:20 PM
Slightly agree with your assesment on Bush in NO. He does help NO alot. Brees going in there was a huge addition the probably pisses the hell out of Miami now for passing on him. there receivers are good and Deuce is a monster. Reggie didn't go in a change their organization like ESPN would like you to believe. not by anymeans. but he is a great addition to have, thats it though...a luxury that they are lucky to a)get b) have the opportunity to take him not need him.

I'll tell you where he makes a difference. Deuce was injury prone the last few years and despite good seasons was hurting. Duece got plenty of breathers with Bush and his legs have been fresh. Brees had an out receiver on every play Bush was in there. There were games, mainly the Giants game where Bush made huge play after huge play and was running between the tackles. He causes dewfense to concentrate on him which leaves better passing lanes and less double coverage on guys like Colston. His stats were not monster but he made a huge difference on that team.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 08:22 PM
You would have to admit that it wasn't all VY either. There were games that it was the Travis Henry show or there D stepped up and won games single handedly.

Vince Young did some good things this year much the same way Rothlishberger did in his rookie season. He did enough not to lose games.

Again though, if Young was a Duck and not a Longhorn this wouldn't even be an issue.

I like building our D and thinking that someday our Dline is going to be a dominant force in the NFL.

And when did Travis Henry start getting yards?After VY took over. Henry was pitiful until VY got in there. VY can't play D and he can't do everything but people are fooling themselves if they don't think certain players winning attitude doesn't rub off on others. The Titan players have admitted as much.

Vinny
01-14-2007, 08:26 PM
You would have to admit that it wasn't all VY either. There were games that it was the Travis Henry show or there D stepped up and won games single handedly.

Vince Young did some good things this year much the same way Rothlishberger did in his rookie season. He did enough not to lose games.

Again though, if Young was a Duck and not a Longhorn this wouldn't even be an issue.

I like building our D and thinking that someday our Dline is going to be a dominant force in the NFL.The Titans were averaging less than 80 yards a game before VY took over....over 150 per game afterwards....teams have to account for the QB...part of why he is such a dangerous QB. You can't see his ability and how he impacts a game by browsing a stat line. you can in baseball...but there is much more of a one on one dynamic in baseball...so stats translate well in that sport...but not in football. You gotta watch them play in football.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 08:33 PM
You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.


Dear Lord I hope that is sarcasm.

I have to disagree with that stats do tell the whole story..thats bs. You see a stat line of an 80 yd TD pass. Its the same as an 80 yd bomb down the field to a receiver thats a good pass. as a 5 yard slant when the slot reciever I mean Running Back reggie bush then runs for 75 yds of it. Thats bs...its mostly either all on the qb or all on the wr,

I saw colston definitly winning it except for the fact he was out for 4 games. that hurt him bad and was unfortunate. i was rooting for him. VY i was surprised...his stats were not great by any means..but i will be the first to by the crow and say he single handidly won those games. esp against us in OT. play was busted...we had great defense and the he made something out of nothing.

Slightly agree with your assesment on Bush in NO. He does help NO alot. Brees going in there was a huge addition the probably pisses the hell out of Miami now for passing on him. there receivers are good and Deuce is a monster. Reggie didn't go in a change their organization like ESPN would like you to believe. not by anymeans. but he is a great addition to have, thats it though...a luxury that they are lucky to a)get b) have the opportunity to take him not need him.

Frog had it right....this was sarcasm. I even tried to be so sarcastic that nobody would even think that I was serious.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 08:53 PM
Frog had it right....this was sarcasm. I even tried to be so sarcastic that nobody would even think that I was serious.

lol ok good. you'd be surprised with some people on here.

TexansSeminole
01-14-2007, 08:54 PM
I'm happy we drafted Mario instead.

I agree man I like the idea of a aggressive defense and that looks like what we are getting.

Vinny
01-14-2007, 08:57 PM
I see a ton of weak takes in this thread...but no sense in arguing them....all I'll say is that Mario looks like he all the tools...but he only flashed a few times last year. I just hope he isn't all measurables and no production like our other first overall pick that could never really ever live up to his 60 mil contract.

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 09:02 PM
The Titans were averaging less than 80 yards a game before VY took over....over 150 per game afterwards....teams have to account for the QB...part of why he is such a dangerous QB. You can't see his ability and how he impacts a game by browsing a stat line. you can in baseball...but there is much more of a one on one dynamic in baseball...so stats translate well in that sport...but not in football. You gotta watch them play in football.

Correct me if I am wrong but didn't they also make line changes at the same time?

I had to go back through the Titans year and again please correct me if I am wrong, it looks like Henry got hurt week 1 and didn't play again until week 5 when he reals off 123 and 178 yards rushing in weeks five and six. It also looks like VY took over in week four. In that game Brown and White continued to average there 40 yards a game with VY. Also VY rushes 5 times for 3 yards in that game, 4 rushes for 43 yards in week 5 and week 6, 6 rushes for 10 yards. I only make this argument b/c Henry is a very good running back that has held his own through the years. Its not like this was TH's first rodeo. In fact he rushed for 1200 yards only starting 13 games and played in 14.

Carr did a good job of beating the Texans in week 7 when they played the Titans and Young won the second meeting with his feet.

To me VY is a younger Vick. Good player, exciting to watch. However, Young plays in my division for Bud Adams.

Vinny
01-14-2007, 09:05 PM
be honest, you didn't watch him much did you? You just look at stat lines.

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 09:15 PM
be honest, you didn't watch him much did you? You just look at stat lines.

When they came on I watched and rooted against. There are certain throws that he is very good at making. He is an athletic run QB who, IMO, if the first read isn't there pulls down the ball and runs. I couldn't tell you one play that I saw where he dropped back and waited for the whole play to develop.

I am not arguing against the effectiveness of such a QB, just that some day he will be just like Vick. Hey, Vick beat Green bay in Green bay and took the Falcons to a Super Bowl, but he can't seem to throw the football on a consistent basis.

I watch all kinds of football all year long. I just like to use stats to back up my opinions. But that is what they are, opinions.

Coach C.
01-14-2007, 09:20 PM
Any comments of VY being a good QB right now are totally off base. He is not a good QB right now. What is he? Inspirational. He inspires, hell motivates his team to play better. That defense believed in him and started playing much better than their last place stat finish says. Travis Henry had more open lanes, because his line blocked better. Bottomline VY starting for the Titans made them believe they could win games. Now I dont like VY hell I never will, and I make no secret that I am happy that we drafted Mario.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 09:22 PM
...so what does that make Carr? Besides taking the Steelers to the SB in his 3rd year, have you compared Bens' stats to Carr or any other qb's 1st 3 yrs?...take a look...

No, but Ben is a VERY GOOD Qb... Carr is not even close to ben... And now we have no idea what the $%&* we're gonna do at Qb Position.

Though I mentioned Carr, I'm not talking about the QB position. I'm talking about the other players. Ben wasn't consistent throughout the whole year, but the Steelers showed that they could fight through that and win.

Your credibility just went out the window.

Freeney is horrible against the run. Mario is not.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 09:22 PM
Here's a stat for you.

Houston had the highest completion percentage in the entire NFL at 68.4% That must mean we have a very good and accurate QB, why would we even consider getting rid of him next season!?:shades:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/OFF-PASSING/2006/regular?sort_col_1=6&_1:col_1=6

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 09:24 PM
Any comments of VY being a good QB right now are totally off base. He is not a good QB right now. What is he? Inspirational. He inspires, hell motivates his team to play better. That defense believed in him and started playing much better than their last place stat finish says. Travis Henry had more open lanes, because his line blocked better. Bottomline VY starting for the Titans made them believe they could win games. Now I dont like VY hell I never will, and I make no secret that I am happy that we drafted Mario.

I agree with every thing you said right here. Somthing I would have said was BS before the season and that you'd be a UT/VY homer.

HoustonFan
01-14-2007, 09:24 PM
Vince did alot for the Titans this season. The wins they got may not have been all that spectacular, but they just kept finding ways to win. Very impressive. I think they'll be back in the mix again next season and might actually get over that hump into the playoffs.

*sigh he could have been a Texan. * sigh

Vinny
01-14-2007, 09:30 PM
When they came on I watched and rooted against.so I'll just take that as a no. I had to go way out of my way to catch the Titans games since most of them weren't on here locally. Sure you watched a few games, but I can't see how anyone can't see Young make clutch plays to win games, make wonderful intermediate passes that Carr just can't seem to complete with really poor protection and with the worst wr's in the NFL. I watched all but one game and I've been watching rookie QB's since 1972 or so...and VY had a heck of a year for a rookie. Don't know what you saw other than a couple of games and some stats that really don't translate well. The biggest reason the Titans were a credible team in 2006 was Vince Young...how you can argue otherwise amazes me.

TexansFanatic
01-14-2007, 09:31 PM
I find it funny that we are still talking about this.

The sad fact is if Vince Young was from Organ then we would not still be talking about it. 2100 passing yards 12 TD's and 13 Int's just doesn't impress me. Besides, we already have a guy who puts up those kind of numbers and we are trying to run him out of town.

In fact I don't get how VY even won Oroy. Colston deserved it more, 70 rec 1038 receiving yards and 8 TD's. Those are pro bowl stats from a 7th round rookie.

Just my opinion. Guess thats what happens when you have a good publicist.

First:
where is Organ?
Second:
If David Carr had put up those kinds of number in his FIRST SEASON AS A PRO, ***AND*** managed to captivate his entire team (young players and seasoned veterans), inspiring them to play above themselves, ***AND*** won eight games with heart and playmaking ability rarely seen before, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Third:
Colston touched the ball 70 times. Vince Young RAN HIS OFFENSE and touched the ball EVERY SINGLE PLAY after game five....

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 09:33 PM
Any comments of VY being a good QB right now are totally off base. He is not a good QB right now. What is he? Inspirational. He inspires, hell motivates his team to play better. That defense believed in him and started playing much better than their last place stat finish says. Travis Henry had more open lanes, because his line blocked better. Bottomline VY starting for the Titans made them believe they could win games. Now I dont like VY hell I never will, and I make no secret that I am happy that we drafted Mario.

This just makes no sense and it confuses me. So what makes a good QB?Motivation comes with seeing a guy make plays. He made plays against us. He did it against the Colts. He made great throws and won with his legs. I just think it is sour grapes when people can't acknolwdge that the guy did more than "good" when he was a rookie.

Vinny
01-14-2007, 09:34 PM
Here's a stat for you.

Houston had the highest completion percentage in the entire NFL at 68.4% That must mean we have a very good and accurate QB, why would we even consider getting rid of him next season!?:shades:

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/OFF-PASSING/2006/regular?sort_col_1=6&_1:col_1=6
If you love 5 yard passes you gotta love the 2006 Texans offense...but if you love TD passes you gotta go somewhere else for your love.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 09:35 PM
First:
where is Organ?
Second:
If David Carr had put up those kinds of number in his FIRST SEASON AS A PRO, ***AND*** managed to captivate his entire team (young players and seasoned veterans), inspiring them to play above themselves, ***AND*** won eight games with heart and playmaking ability rarely seen before, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Third:
Colston touched the ball 70 times. Vince Young RAN HIS OFFENSE and touched the ball EVERY SINGLE PLAY after game five....

Quarterbacks always have the edge because of that reason. IMO they will only lose if they make themselves lose....or Ladanian comes along. Hell he's a good qb as well!

Vinny
01-14-2007, 09:35 PM
This just makes no sense and it confuses me. So what makes a good QB?Motivation comes with seeing a guy make plays. He made plays against us. He did it against the Colts. He made great throws and won with his legs. I just think it is sour grapes when people can't acknolwdge that the guy did more than "good" when he was a rookie.Last year he noted he was an Aggie as he bashed VY non stop....nuff said.

stingray
01-14-2007, 09:36 PM
I guess it comes down to what you value with your pick. I place more value in a true running back or receiver, who is outstanding at what they do. I can see why you'd really like Bush if you highly valued utility players, but I don't think they're worth the value of the 1st overall pick in the draft. Bush is pretty good at alot of things, but I don't see him as ever being great at any one thing.

That's the same thing they said about Marshal Faulk......

Honoring Earl 34
01-14-2007, 09:38 PM
Any comments of VY being a good QB right now are totally off base. He is not a good QB right now. What is he? Inspirational. He inspires, hell motivates his team to play better. That defense believed in him and started playing much better than their last place stat finish says. Travis Henry had more open lanes, because his line blocked better. Bottomline VY starting for the Titans made them believe they could win games. Now I dont like VY hell I never will, and I make no secret that I am happy that we drafted Mario.

You don't think the Texan need a double dose of that ?

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 09:39 PM
Last year he noted he was an Aggie as he bashed VY non stop....nuff said.
Whereas I bash VY for playing for a rival. :)

Vinny
01-14-2007, 09:39 PM
Whereas I bash VY for playing for a rival. :)
well, answer me honestly...do you go to UT? I know the answer is no...but humor me.

TexansFanatic
01-14-2007, 09:44 PM
Quarterbacks always have the edge because of that reason. IMO they will only lose if they make themselves lose....or Ladanian comes along. Hell he's a good qb as well!

There have been very few QBs who have been voted ROY because it usually takes longer for QBs to learn how to play in the NFL. Just ask Peyton Manning. That's what makes VY's accomplishments even more amazing. He is still raw and still learning and he has so much more improvement ahead of him.

Ole Miss Texan
01-14-2007, 09:46 PM
There have very few QBs who have been voted ROY because it usually takes longer for QBs to learn how to play in the NFL. Just ask Peyton Manning. That's what makes VY's accomplishments even more amazing. He is still raw and still learning and he has so much more improvement ahead of him.

I wasn't necessarily referring to Rookies...which this was obviously what it was about...my bad. there are few rookie qbs playing...year in and year out. I meant in every award though...including heismans....mvp...etc.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 09:50 PM
well, answer me honestly...do you go to UT? I know the answer is no...but humor me.
Something like that.

TexansFanatic
01-14-2007, 09:50 PM
I wasn't necessarily referring to Rookies...which this was obviously what it was about...my bad.

:ok:

old football fan
01-14-2007, 09:59 PM
Somebody call Dr. Phil. We have a bunch of people on this MB who are sick and need help. They can't seem to get out of living in the past, which is not good for their mental health.

Coach C.
01-14-2007, 10:02 PM
Last year he noted he was an Aggie as he bashed VY non stop....nuff said.

Vinny now you know exactly what I said about VY. Read what I wrote. I dont like him, didnt want him, no reason to pretend about that. But you know he was not a good QB and in several games the Titans won inspite of VY not because of. You know that I said that I think VY will not be a bust, but will be a guy that will be very good and a better version of Randall Cunningham. Dont try to come out and pretend like I had nothing of value to say about VY.

Coach C.
01-14-2007, 10:03 PM
Best part of this is that we dont have VY. We have Mario Williams who is just right for us.

Honoring Earl 34
01-14-2007, 10:19 PM
Well it did'nt happen ... I like Mario also . I do like what VY does to a team though .

The best thing is we can get a QB mauling edge rusher in the 2nd rd. to complimate Mario . This draft is getting deep in DEs and if we want one he'll be there .

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 10:24 PM
]First:
where is Organ? [/B]Second:
If David Carr had put up those kinds of number in his FIRST SEASON AS A PRO, ***AND*** managed to captivate his entire team (young players and seasoned veterans), inspiring them to play above themselves, ***AND*** won eight games with heart and playmaking ability rarely seen before, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Third:
Colston touched the ball 70 times. Vince Young RAN HIS OFFENSE and touched the ball EVERY SINGLE PLAY after game five....

To answer the first, right above Washton. You know, where DC is located.:tease:

I refuse to turn this into a Carr -vs- Young debate. Carr is done in Houston and the Career of VY is just getting started. Two athletes in two totally different states of there careers.

Colston might have only touched the ball 70 times but he has half of VY's passing yards and 2/3 of VY's passing TD's. Not to mention, Colston was a 7th round pick. Your not supposed to put up those kinds of numbers as a rookie 7th round pick.

so I'll just take that as a no. I had to go way out of my way to catch the Titans games since most of them weren't on here locally. Sure you watched a few games, but I can't see how anyone can't see Young make clutch plays to win games, make wonderful intermediate passes that Carr just can't seem to complete with really poor protection and with the worst wr's in the NFL. I watched all but one game and I've been watching rookie QB's since 1972 or so...and VY had a heck of a year for a rookie. Don't know what you saw other than a couple of games and some stats that really don't translate well. The biggest reason the Titans were a credible team in 2006 was Vince Young...how you can argue otherwise amazes me.

Why? Don't take that the wrong way when I ask that. Why would you go out of your way to watch the Titans? Are you a fan of the Titans? Or is it strictly b/c of VY? I have never understood why people from Houston can, will, have, root for a division team. My best friend is an Eagle fan and likes Dallas. Yea, its kinda like that. He claims he is a fan of the game.

I can't understand it.

tulexan
01-14-2007, 10:31 PM
Vinny now you know exactly what I said about VY. Read what I wrote. I dont like him, didnt want him, no reason to pretend about that. But you know he was not a good QB and in several games the Titans won inspite of VY not because of. You know that I said that I think VY will not be a bust, but will be a guy that will be very good and a better version of Randall Cunningham. Dont try to come out and pretend like I had nothing of value to say about VY.


You mean Vince wasn't responsible for all of those interceptions that David Garrard threw? I could've sworn that he intercepted them.

Mr. White
01-14-2007, 10:33 PM
Any comments of VY being a good QB right now are totally off base. He is not a good QB right now. What is he? Inspirational. He inspires, hell motivates his team to play better. That defense believed in him and started playing much better than their last place stat finish says. Travis Henry had more open lanes, because his line blocked better. Bottomline VY starting for the Titans made them believe they could win games. Now I dont like VY hell I never will, and I make no secret that I am happy that we drafted Mario.

I'll agree that he's inspirational.

That and he checks off to his other receivers...and then picks up yardage when nobody's open....and he gets around sacks that other QB's (who shall remain nameless) take for losses...

I could go on, but I think my point's been made.

It's obvious that you guys don't watch his games.

stingray
01-14-2007, 10:37 PM
Somebody call Dr. Phil. We have a bunch of people on this MB who are sick and need help. They can't seem to get out of living in the past, which is not good for their mental health.

What's the saying "those who don't learn from their mistakes are bound to repeat them". Something like that...

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 11:06 PM
I'll agree that he's inspirational.

That and he checks off to his other receivers...and then picks up yardage when nobody's open....and he gets around sacks that other QB's (who shall remain nameless) take for losses...

I could go on, but I think my point's been made.

It's obvious that you guys don't watch his games.


Well said. Or the fact that his own teammates, offensively and defensively said they feed off of him. Some people will just never get over the facts.

TEXANRED
01-14-2007, 11:13 PM
Some people will just never get over the facts.

Fact is he is a division rival and stood in the way of the Texans finishing with an 8-8 record.

HoustonFrog
01-14-2007, 11:19 PM
Fact is he is a division rival and stood in the way of the Texans finishing with an 8-8 record.

That has nothing to do with evaluating talent and being realistic about what a player can do for a team.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 11:21 PM
You can get pretty weird Vinny...

I hope I don't see another VY thread until we play the Titans...nothing new ever gets brought up.

mexican_texan
01-14-2007, 11:24 PM
That has nothing to do with evaluating talent and being realistic about what a player can do for a team.
Oh, yes it does.

Second Honeymoon
01-14-2007, 11:29 PM
Well said. Or the fact that his own teammates, offensively and defensively said they feed off of him. Some people will just never get over the facts.

Vince Young won over the Titans defense the first time they had to face him in practice. The entire locker room and franchise soon followed. It is in the past though, Mario was a need pick that has yet to pay off. I hope it pays off here if he gets his foot right. I think we all want it to work out...the early returns are a bit gloomy though on the 2006 NFL draft #1 overall pick decision....its just fact

JAXwithanX
01-15-2007, 12:05 AM
I just still don't understand the insistence people have on trying to prove VY isn't a good QB. He did what he did...won games...period. And did it his first year in the league with a team most considered to be the worst in the league when McNair left. There is a 99% chance he is only going to get better at doing that as time goes by. Because I think we can all agree that a QB isn't supposed to pick up the NFL that fast the first year....and especially a QB that wasn't even in a watered down NFL offense like Leinart. He was always in the shotgun, with his 3/4 arm slot, with his sometimes hasty decision to take off and run, with his bad Wonderlic score, with his poor defense recognition, with his problems going through progressions.....oh yeah with apparently everyone's dog's head and his hands because thats the way people act like when they are trying to convince others he STILL isn't a good QB. Open your eyes....no one knew he would contribute this quickly, true. But if you blasted him before the season you don't have to continue trying to justify your poor foresight. Just count it as a loss and hope no one becomes an ass and starts bringing up old posts and threads pointing out completely wrong things you predicted. Think of it as amnesty....we'll all just forget it happened and look the other way. We have Mario....and damnit he didn't disappoint me this year....he still wants to get technically better, he didn't quit, and he DID get better as the year went on. And regardless if he ever start picking up the sacks....he made a drastic impact already on our run D to his side. There is constantly a LB free because of the double team on him.

Vinny
01-15-2007, 01:35 AM
Why? Don't take that the wrong way when I ask that. Why would you go out of your way to watch the Titans? Are you a fan of the Titans? Or is it strictly b/c of VY? I have never understood why people from Houston can, will, have, root for a division team. My best friend is an Eagle fan and likes Dallas. Yea, its kinda like that. He claims he is a fan of the game.

I can't understand it.I moved to the Memphis area and attended Oiler games at the Liberty Bowl when the Oilers left town...I have no children and I worked in a field where I was mobile, so I bolted...I then moved to Nashville since they left Memphis early and attended games as I lived about 20 mins from the stadium in Goodlettsville. I'm also the admin of the official 49ers message board on their official web site. I'm a bigger NFL fan than I am a Texan fan.......what's it really matter? You don't understand me, and I don't understand homers. Go figure.

Txn_in_Oki
01-15-2007, 03:24 AM
I wanted to hate on Vince and I did, I admit it. Now, I wish him all the luck in the world. He seems to have taken the Titans and made them believe they can do anything, and for someone to do that to a team on the downslope is a big deal.

All I can do as a exan fan is hope that he's another Vick and that everyone will catch on after another season and make him ineffectual.

Will it happen? I guess we'll see.

NATHANHALE
01-15-2007, 03:51 AM
"Ben wasn't consistent throughout the whole year, but the Steelers showed that they could fight through that and win."

...maybe it was because he was sacked more times than David

NATHANHALE
01-15-2007, 04:09 AM
Best part of this is that we dont have VY. We have Mario Williams who is just right for us.

...yes, we do have Mario and-considering the nature of our team-he IS just right for us.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 09:07 AM
...yes, we do have Mario and-considering the nature of our team-he IS just right for us.


Right, we needed a guy who didn't live up to #1 more than a guy who could have lifted our team and who can win games that alot of teams lose. I'm sure having Carr and a guy who was hurt and really unproductive this year was a great way to spend the overall #1 pick. That is why we are looking at D-line this draft...AGAIN. Sorry, I like Mario but this makes no sense.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 09:10 AM
I just still don't understand the insistence people have on trying to prove VY isn't a good QB. He did what he did...won games...period. And did it his first year in the league with a team most considered to be the worst in the league when McNair left. There is a 99% chance he is only going to get better at doing that as time goes by. Because I think we can all agree that a QB isn't supposed to pick up the NFL that fast the first year....and especially a QB that wasn't even in a watered down NFL offense like Leinart. He was always in the shotgun, with his 3/4 arm slot, with his sometimes hasty decision to take off and run, with his bad Wonderlic score, with his poor defense recognition, with his problems going through progressions.....oh yeah with apparently everyone's dog's head and his hands because thats the way people act like when they are trying to convince others he STILL isn't a good QB. Open your eyes....no one knew he would contribute this quickly, true. But if you blasted him before the season you don't have to continue trying to justify your poor foresight. Just count it as a loss and hope no one becomes an ass and starts bringing up old posts and threads pointing out completely wrong things you predicted. Think of it as amnesty....we'll all just forget it happened and look the other way. We have Mario....and damnit he didn't disappoint me this year....he still wants to get technically better, he didn't quit, and he DID get better as the year went on. And regardless if he ever start picking up the sacks....he made a drastic impact already on our run D to his side. There is constantly a LB free because of the double team on him.

Right. Good post. I know we can't go back and I wasn't one that wanted to take him. Denying his impact is just stubborn though. We just have to make sure not to make the same mistake and look forward knowing that we can still go out and make differences in the off season like the Saints and others have.

cbnjwill
01-15-2007, 09:25 AM
you can always get a good laugh on this message board. come on did we really want to use the number one overall pick to get a defensive lineman who could help stuff the run? hell no! maybe if we used the 31st overall pick i might be happy with a run stuffer but as a number one pick i expect to see a dominant defensive end who gets to the qb and makes big plays.there were atleast 5 other def lineman drafted after mario who played alot better than williams. i wanted vy from the get go, once we gave carr his 8mill i knew they were not gonna take vy so i wanted bush, hated the pick of williams at number one then and have not seen anything to change my mind.

NATHANHALE
01-15-2007, 09:25 AM
Right, we needed a guy who didn't live up to #1 more than a guy who could have lifted our team and who can win games that alot of teams lose. I'm sure having Carr and a guy who was hurt and really unproductive this year was a great way to spend the overall #1 pick. That is why we are looking at D-line this draft...AGAIN. Sorry, I like Mario but this makes no sense.

...nature of our team is we don't get much from our #1 picks--DR is hot and cold and AJ is the most consistent--other than that (Carr/Babin/Johnson,etc.), the rest are what they are

real
01-15-2007, 09:28 AM
The Steelers showed the world last year that you don't need a great QB to win a Super Bowl.

Ben played pretty well all through the season. One not so good game doesn't mean you can win, let a lone get to, the superbowl with bad QB play.

Arky
01-15-2007, 09:29 AM
Something I was unaware of: Vince is 23. Mario and Reggie are 21.

Re: Mario, it's good that he's had 1 year experience in the NFL despite playing through the injury. I'm thinking at 21, his body is still growing and maturing and he'll become somewhat beefier physically as his career progresses...

He had a number of "playmaker" plays this season:

1. Tipped 2 pt conversion in the Miami game preventing OT and securing the win.

2. Forced fumble in Indy #2 game. Texans converted the turnover for 7 pts. Had the Colts scored a TD, this would've represented a swing of 14 pts in a game the Texans won by 3.

3. Cleveland game (last game) he forced the QB into an intentional grounding penalty at crunch time which really put the Browns in a bad spot - very helpful in securing the win.

re: VY, wasn't he supposed to hold a clipboard for a couple of years? ;) When he announced his coming out, I knew the Texans weren't going to take him. I thought he had a better chance of becoming a Texan if he would have returned to TU for his senior year. Pre-draft hype had him as a raw talent who was going to need some time to learn the NFL style of play. (Isn't hindsight wonderful?) He did amazingly well his first year though I think VY & the Titans were very beatable in Texans vs. Titans #2. Texans just couldn't get the job done and VY did. All this crapolio about him "haunting the Texans for the next 10 years" will disappear after the Texans beat the Titans a few times..... It should make a great rivalry for many years to come....

re: Reggie, this was my choice. He's doing just about as well as one would expect as a rookie with New Orleans and should have a great career.

Still too early to make a call on all three.... No one knows what the next several years will hold. And the 2006 draft is over.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 09:43 AM
...nature of our team is we don't get much from our #1 picks--DR is hot and cold and AJ is the most consistent--other than that (Carr/Babin/Johnson,etc.), the rest are what they are

Exactly, so when you have the #1 pick and you basically have needs that cover every position you either trade down for more picks or take the best athlete available. You don't take a need who can sign a contract. JMO.

jerek
01-15-2007, 10:08 AM
my biggest beef (besides Carr) is that I really don't see Mario becoming a "great" player that was worthy of the first pick in a loaded draft....I think he might be a good player, but there are certain things that I didn't see from him this year that makes me think that he won't be "great"

Probably because you were too busy watching Titans games. Plantar fascitis is a debilitating injury that prevented Mario from planting and making strong moves, the kind of thing that only Vince Young in all of his majesty could shrug off while engaging 300 lb. linemen. Hyperbole aside it's an injury that will heal and I admire Mario for playing through the pain. After a slow start in which he was clearly learning the ropes (and we knew he would go through growing pains ... he was a junior at NC State for crying out loud) he came on strong before suffering the injury. Through the course of the season, he wasn't "dominant" but he remained a factor and teams rarely ran at him. Then again who would run at an injured Mario Williams when you have Jason Babin on the opposite side?

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 10:39 AM
Probably because you were too busy watching Titans games. Plantar fascitis is a debilitating injury that prevented Mario from planting and making strong moves, the kind of thing that only Vince Young in all of his majesty could shrug off while engaging 300 lb. linemen. Hyperbole aside it's an injury that will heal and I admire Mario for playing through the pain. After a slow start in which he was clearly learning the ropes (and we knew he would go through growing pains ... he was a junior at NC State for crying out loud) he came on strong before suffering the injury. Through the course of the season, he wasn't "dominant" but he remained a factor and teams rarely ran at him. Then again who would run at an injured Mario Williams when you have Jason Babin on the opposite side?

I know that he was hurt but I think the fact of the matter is that with the #1 pick you don't take a guy who is a "project" or someone who isn't going to make an immediate impact. There were questions on him coming out. You trade down for someone like him or you take the homerun hit of Bush, VY or whoever. They completely missed the boat. It is funny because I wrote this same thing earlier this morning and last year and I'm hearing Harbison on 610 say the same thing. He just wasn't a guy you make #1. That was an deal with being easy to sign and a "need." Heck if you kept Carr and wanted to take a need go with D'Brick #1.

Texans_Chick
01-15-2007, 11:06 AM
I agree that there is all sorts of weak stuff said in this thread, all whichaways.

As someone who thought VY would succeed in the league in the right situation, but also believe that Williams is a key part of the Texans, I am more curious about how the decision making was made in the whole pick up Carr's contract/role of the consultant thing:

Texans FanHouse Link (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/01/14/texans-consultant-dan-reeves-wanted-to-draft-vince-young/)

In part:

The question I would like to know is what was the extent of Reeves' consultancy at the time of the draft? What does it mean that he "looked at Young?" How forceful was he in making his point that he liked Young and to whom did he make it? Did he recommend in January 2006 exercising all three years of Carr's option or a shorter term? Did he tell them at that time that he thought Carr's option should be picked up and that the Texans needed to draft Young as well?

Exercising three years of Carr's option (which is what was done) and thinking that you should also pick Young makes no sense to me at all. Salary cap wise it would be nuts to have double first pick money at the QB position, and it would have been difficult to envision Carr trying to learn a new system with hometown hero Young waiting in the wings.

I doubt we ever get the full story of Reeves' consultancy. Maybe this situation illustrates why consultants might work sometimes for the business world but are awkward for the NFL. They can make recommendations without having to deal with the consequences, and then repudiate the parts of it that could reflect badly on them.

TexansSB07
01-15-2007, 11:38 AM
:sarcasm: IF no one else has what it takes to say it, Dan Reeves is a No-Class Hasbeen. He could have sat quietly and let it go, but in trying to position himself to come back as a coach in NFL he decides to throw Texans under the bus. AND AFTER THE FACT...why wasn't Dan out in front of this saying as an evaluator of talent I look for a lot of good things when Vince Young comes to NFL.

LOOK I'm Dan Reeves

Colts will face Patriots and Saints will face off with Bears


SEE just like Dan Reeves I am out in FRONT of what is going on in NFL
:sarcasm:

Mr. White
01-15-2007, 11:41 AM
With regards to Reeves' consultancy, wasn't the idea behind his hire to evaluate the entire organiztion?

I think I remember hearing that he was supposed to evaluate the entire roster as well as the FO, GM, and coaching.

TEXANRED
01-15-2007, 02:14 PM
I moved to the Memphis area and attended Oiler games at the Liberty Bowl when the Oilers left town...I have no children and I worked in a field where I was mobile, so I bolted...I then moved to Nashville since they left Memphis early and attended games as I lived about 20 mins from the stadium in Goodlettsville. I'm also the admin of the official 49ers message board on their official web site. I'm a bigger NFL fan than I am a Texan fan.......what's it really matter? You don't understand me, and I don't understand homers. Go figure.

It does matter and it doesn't, I have my own personal feeling toward the Titans, Bud Adams, and that organization.

I am a homer and proud of, but I will tell you this, you are definitely a bigger homer than me. Even if I didn't have a family and worked in a field that was mobile I still would have told Bud to take his team and shove it. I would have to say leaving the city you live in to follow your team to there new city is the ultimate homerizm.

To each there own.

jerek
01-15-2007, 02:43 PM
I know that he was hurt but I think the fact of the matter is that with the #1 pick you don't take a guy who is a "project" or someone who isn't going to make an immediate impact. There were questions on him coming out. You trade down for someone like him or you take the homerun hit of Bush, VY or whoever. They completely missed the boat. It is funny because I wrote this same thing earlier this morning and last year and I'm hearing Harbison on 610 say the same thing. He just wasn't a guy you make #1. That was an deal with being easy to sign and a "need." Heck if you kept Carr and wanted to take a need go with D'Brick #1.

Drafting for immediate impact is only a concern for impatient fans unwilling to entertain a bigger-picture building process. There was a time in which I argued David Carr will be successful here (still might be) but I think it's fair to say VY would have "done more" for our team this year than either David Carr or Mario Williams did (this year), viewing their respective performances through hindsight.

This fact does not diminish what Mario Williams will bring to our team, given experience and restored health. Neither does it diminish the premise that successful teams draft to win in the future rather than to pander to an emotional fan base in the here and now.

The history of sport is ripe with guys who took time to develop before becoming HOFers. I stand by the Mario Williams pick insofar as that you can win games with average quarterbacking (which Carr does provide) and a stellar defense. Mario (and DeMeco) are the cornerstone of a stellar defense.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 03:04 PM
Drafting for immediate impact is only a concern for impatient fans unwilling to entertain a bigger-picture building process. There was a time in which I argued David Carr will be successful here (still might be) but I think it's fair to say VY would have "done more" for our team this year than either David Carr or Mario Williams did (this year), viewing their respective performances through hindsight.

This fact does not diminish what Mario Williams will bring to our team, given experience and restored health. Neither does it diminish the premise that successful teams draft to win in the future rather than to pander to an emotional fan base in the here and now.

The history of sport is ripe with guys who took time to develop before becoming HOFers. I stand by the Mario Williams pick insofar as that you can win games with average quarterbacking (which Carr does provide) and a stellar defense. Mario (and DeMeco) are the cornerstone of a stellar defense.

Well I certainly respect your opinion but we are going to have two big differences that will lead us in our opinions. 1) I think Mario will get to a position of solid, really good, but not spectacular player for years to come. I hope I'm wrong after only 1 season but I just don't see it. To me he would have been a perfect 5-10 pick but not #1. He reminds me of what Greg Ellis did for the Cowboys. A guy you will have for years but not necessarily a stud. 2) You can win games with average QBs but why do it?Carr isn't even average in my book. Not even close. When you have a chance to get a guy..or many(Leinart, Cutler) that can win games for you and can make plays despite a poor team day, then you grab them. I understand your patient philosophy but why go there when you have the #1 pick overall and there is a first round loaded with playmakers?They took the guy easiest to sign and who fit a need and they are still looking to fill that need this year. People have taken to heart the Baltimore/Bears philosophy that you can have a bad QB and go far yet the examples out there are the exception, not the norm. Brady shows you exactly why a great QB or a very good QB can make everyone around him better.

leachmtb
01-15-2007, 03:12 PM
You're right. Stats do tell the whole story. Don't you know that's how OROY and DROY got picked? They don't actually watch the games, they just look at the stat line and make a determination based on stats.

And I also agree that Reggie Bush added absolutely nothing to the Saints' offense. They were already Super Bowl contenders before they got him. He's such a non-factor that defenses don't even cover him.

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think that stats do not tell the whole story at all, which is why I went further to give a little background to those statistics. And, it is not much of an argument to make a sarcastic comment about Reggie making them Super Bowl contenders. My point is that people weight in too heavily on him without looking at the best player or even the best rookie on their team. You have Drew Brees, who is an incredible quarterback and Colston who is a better wide reciever than Reggie Bush. For being the secon overall pick, his production was not good.

travfrancis
01-15-2007, 03:28 PM
Haha, Vinny is just laying people out in this thread left and right, everytime he quotes someone and responds to them he just completely dismantles their often weak take. I can just picture TJ and Irvin in the studio yelling "He got jacked up!"

Ah, don't ever quit Vinny, love your work.

Also I find it humorous (and sad) that Mexican Texan claims to be a UT fan to try to gain credibility for his anti-VY takes.

Mr. White
01-15-2007, 03:41 PM
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I think that stats do not tell the whole story at all, which is why I went further to give a little background to those statistics. And, it is not much of an argument to make a sarcastic comment about Reggie making them Super Bowl contenders. My point is that people weight in too heavily on him without looking at the best player or even the best rookie on their team. You have Drew Brees, who is an incredible quarterback and Colston who is a better wide reciever than Reggie Bush. For being the secon overall pick, his production was not good.

My main point about stats is that they really say whatever you want them to say. For example....QB ratings, IMO, don't really account for how good a QB really is. Just an incomplete stat. Also, everyone looks at sacks to see how good a DE or LB is...IMO, sacks don't normally happen without DB's locking up receivers.

When you actually watch their games, you see the impact that each player makes. By the nature of his position, I just don't think that it's possible for Mario to impact a game in the same way that Bush or Young can. He just doesn't touch the ball...but I think that he'll be the cornerstone of a great defense.

My point about Reggie Bush is that I don't think that the Saints get to the NFC Championship game without him. He adds another dimension to the offense. They did make plenty of other improvements...not to mention the meatgrinder that the Superdome has turned into for opposing teams.

IIRC, I actually agreed a lot more with what you said in your original post than what I quoted. Just having a little fun...:tease:

srstex
01-15-2007, 04:01 PM
Joppru with Seattle - is this Bennie
Gaffney with New England - And he's catching the ball after seperation
Billy Miller With New Orleans Still catching the ball
Didn't we cut all three of these guy ?

srstex
01-15-2007, 04:07 PM
I just still don't understand the insistence people have on trying to prove VY isn't a good QB. He did what he did...won games...period. And did it his first year in the league with a team most considered to be the worst in the league when McNair left. There is a 99% chance he is only going to get better at doing that as time goes by. Because I think we can all agree that a QB isn't supposed to pick up the NFL that fast the first year....and especially a QB that wasn't even in a watered down NFL offense like Leinart. He was always in the shotgun, with his 3/4 arm slot, with his sometimes hasty decision to take off and run, with his bad Wonderlic score, with his poor defense recognition, with his problems going through progressions.....oh yeah with apparently everyone's dog's head and his hands because thats the way people act like when they are trying to convince others he STILL isn't a good QB. Open your eyes....no one knew he would contribute this quickly, true. But if you blasted him before the season you don't have to continue trying to justify your poor foresight. Just count it as a loss and hope no one becomes an ass and starts bringing up old posts and threads pointing out completely wrong things you predicted. Think of it as amnesty....we'll all just forget it happened and look the other way. We have Mario....and damnit he didn't disappoint me this year....he still wants to get technically better, he didn't quit, and he DID get better as the year went on. And regardless if he ever start picking up the sacks....he made a drastic impact already on our run D to his side. There is constantly a LB free because of the double team on him.

I enjoyed Vince Youngs win when his defense/special teams scored 21 points and his offense scored 3, but there you go, it happened and Vince did it all.
If Carr had won 8 games with VY numbers, the thread would read " And if Carr had better numbers just think where we would be ? "

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 04:13 PM
I enjoyed Vince Youngs win when his defense/special teams scored 21 points and his offense scored 3, but there you go, it happened and Vince did it all.
If Carr had won 8 games with VY numbers, the thread would read " And if Carr had better numbers just think where we would be ? "


and if you read other posts in here, most aren't attributing that to him, but he did turn a 0-3 and then 0-5 team around and his defense and team said that his attitude permeated the team. It happens. Sorry, but people who have watched any sort of football over the decades have seen players change franchises. He is a rookie, Carr is a 5 year vet.

dirty steve
01-15-2007, 04:15 PM
Probably because some people actually watched the games. VY made clutch 3rd downs, threw the intermediate pass well, produced in the clutch over and over, and was responsible for 2-3 TD's a game in many of their wins and took a 0-5 team that was 9-23 the two years before he arrived within a game of the playoffs. Vince Young's rookie stats were better than John Elways rookie stats....fwiw
i preferred Maurice Jones-Drew as the OROY pick but cant argue with VY. dude just made a difference after he took over. the AFC South is getting loaded on talent.

jerek
01-15-2007, 04:17 PM
Well I certainly respect your opinion but we are going to have two big differences that will lead us in our opinions. 1) I think Mario will get to a position of solid, really good, but not spectacular player for years to come. I hope I'm wrong after only 1 season but I just don't see it. To me he would have been a perfect 5-10 pick but not #1. He reminds me of what Greg Ellis did for the Cowboys. A guy you will have for years but not necessarily a stud. 2) You can win games with average QBs but why do it?Carr isn't even average in my book. Not even close. When you have a chance to get a guy..or many(Leinart, Cutler) that can win games for you and can make plays despite a poor team day, then you grab them. I understand your patient philosophy but why go there when you have the #1 pick overall and there is a first round loaded with playmakers?They took the guy easiest to sign and who fit a need and they are still looking to fill that need this year. People have taken to heart the Baltimore/Bears philosophy that you can have a bad QB and go far yet the examples out there are the exception, not the norm. Brady shows you exactly why a great QB or a very good QB can make everyone around him better.

Hindsight affords luxury that forward planning does not. Many of the media analysts the VY crowd now delight in quoting had projected Young as a 1-2 year developmental project rather than an immediate starter, a belief shared by many NFL FO personnel as well. More to the point, and relevant in remembering our decision to pass on a first-day pick at quarterback, Kubiak believed that he could resurrect Carr's career. We did see progress this season, albeit not nearly to the extent that we (and probably Kubiak, and Carr) hoped for, and time will tell whether or not passing on VY was as big a mistake as many around here like to make it out to be.

Brady makes for a poor example in your case, as he was drafted late in the sixth round and does not possess any of the traits that the VY fanclub most often promote. He does not have a particularly strong arm and is not athletic and tossed 3 INTs in yesterday's W over the 14-2 Chargers and their MVP. Though a good and at times great quarterback, I would credit the Pats' superior gameplanning (on both sides of the ball) as the reason they can and do win so much and so well.

HoustonFrog
01-15-2007, 04:33 PM
Hindsight affords luxury that forward planning does not. Many of the media analysts the VY crowd now delight in quoting had projected Young as a 1-2 year developmental project rather than an immediate starter, a belief shared by many NFL FO personnel as well. More to the point, and relevant in remembering our decision to pass on a first-day pick at quarterback, Kubiak believed that he could resurrect Carr's career. We did see progress this season, albeit not nearly to the extent that we (and probably Kubiak, and Carr) hoped for, and time will tell whether or not passing on VY was as big a mistake as many around here like to make it out to be.

Brady makes for a poor example in your case, as he was drafted late in the sixth round and does not possess any of the traits that the VY fanclub most often promote. He does not have a particularly strong arm and is not athletic and tossed 3 INTs in yesterday's W over the 14-2 Chargers and their MVP. Though a good and at times great quarterback, I would credit the Pats' superior gameplanning (on both sides of the ball) as the reason they can and do win so much and so well.

This is what I have never gotten. NFL people said he might take 2-3 years because alot of them are idiots. Sorry but I'd trust some of the people here to run a draft then NFL people who look at combine stats and project players. The players that have always made the best impact are the ones who were stars in college and who showed that they were winners when it counted. VY did it and others have. It isn't that hard when it comes to some of these guys. In fact most rookies these days aren't afforded 2-3 years. If a guy is a winner and people gravitate to that, then it translates. Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years.

As far as Brady..you have to be kidding?The guy is one of the most clutch QBs in NFL history. If we took your way of looking at things then Montana would only be part of a system..after all he was surrounded by good players and had the father of the West Coast offense, Bill Walsh, as his coach. Brady takes scrubs every year and makes them better. It amazes me how people overlook things like poise in the pocket, how to slide out of the pocket, how to respond to bad games. Despite 3 Ints yesterday Brady still led them to 11 pts in the 4th quarter and they are moving on. He gets it.

What bothers me about people and the Carr talk is that people gloss people like VY in his rookie year or Brady now and act like you just need to get talent around certain QBs or that it is the system. If that was the case then every College QB with an arm would be waiting for the right team and system and Ryan Leaf would have succeeded. Some guys have it, some don't. I've been watching since 1976 and this has never changed. Again, no disrespect. JMO.

ASTRODOME2002
01-16-2007, 12:18 AM
I see many posters on this board raving about how well Vince Young played this season. He won a lot of games with his legs, but none with his arm. If you can't read defenses and be an accurate passer in the NFL, then your progression as a quarterback will come to a screaching hault. Vince Young won't continue to be successful in the league unless he learns how to throw the football accurately and read defenses. Michael Vick has similar skills as Vince Young. They both drop back, look for the first option and if that is covered they turn to their legs. A couple of years ago, Mike Vick was "superman" and was able to utilize his running ability to win games. That didn't work very long for Michael Vick and it won't work very long for Vince Young. This first year, a good one for Young, may do more to slow down his progress as a quaterback than most people think. Right now, Young believes that he has made it as an NFL QB. Teams will adjust to his running skills and eventually he'll have to pass the football. Once the NFL defenses catch up to him, Vince Young will have nothing to fall back on because he is a one dimensional quarterback/running-back.

ASTRODOME2002
01-16-2007, 09:14 AM
Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 09:36 AM
Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

Anyone who watches football knows better than this. If you even watched VY his last year in college and this year in any games..besides 2..you will know that his passing skills are light years ahead of where Vick's were when he came out. VY's game does not include "run first." He ran when he had to but in general, stayed in the pocket. He threw effectively against us here and made some deep throws that our QB has had trouble making. I'm sorry if it offends anyone but people need to actually watch a season of games and not a few highlight runs before making blanket statements that don't hold water. I've never seen so much random hate for a guy who has done nothing but prove people wrong. Oh yeah, and another big difference is that VY actually led a team to a championship while Vick has always been an athlete that has done well.

Vinny
01-16-2007, 10:38 AM
Why? Don't take that the wrong way when I ask that. Why would you go out of your way to watch the Titans? Are you a fan of the Titans? Or is it strictly b/c of VY? I have never understood why people from Houston can, will, have, root for a division team. My best friend is an Eagle fan and likes Dallas. Yea, its kinda like that. He claims he is a fan of the game.

I can't understand it.I moved to the Memphis area and attended Oiler games at the Liberty Bowl when the Oilers left town...I have no children and I worked in a field where I was mobile, so I bolted...I then moved to Nashville since they left Memphis early and attended games as I lived about 20 mins from the stadium in Goodlettsville. I'm also the admin of the official 49ers message board on their official web site. I'm a bigger NFL fan than I am a Texan fan.......what's it really matter? You don't understand me, and I don't understand homers. Go figure.It does matter and it doesn't, I have my own personal feeling toward the Titans, Bud Adams, and that organization.

I am a homer and proud of, but I will tell you this, you are definitely a bigger homer than me. Even if I didn't have a family and worked in a field that was mobile I still would have told Bud to take his team and shove it. I would have to say leaving the city you live in to follow your team to there new city is the ultimate homerizm.

To each there own.
I used to work for Bud...that doesn't make me a homer...it made me employed...and living well. I love the NFL and had the means and the right job...so I followed the team. I really don't care if you want to cry about Bud and throw your feces at him like a monkey (your hatred of Bud ruins your credibility (football opinion) when assessing talent). Keep chunking though....looks like you are having fun.

I don't alter my takes on players due to geography since I choose credibility over popularity...always have, always will...I don't think that extreme homerism is honest and it doesn't help one develop a solid reputation when it comes to being a long time NFL observer around here...being your kind of a homer is being someone who lies to himself and others about the reality on the field and doesn't really get into the truth...it's all spin. That's why I don't grasp or have much respect for extreme homerism.

NATHANHALE
01-16-2007, 02:16 PM
Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

I'm gonna post this one on my 'eat crow' board....thanks!!

hollywood_texan
01-16-2007, 04:08 PM
Vince Young is the right-handed version of Michael Vick. They may as well be twins, because their talents and faults are very similar. Pro-bowl runner & practice team passer. Many forget that Michael Vick was on top of the world just 2 years ago when he led his team to an 11-4 record and a playoff win against the Rams (2004). Michael Vick could do no wrong (does this remind you of anybody?) Mike Vick this and Mike Vick that. A Pro-Bowl appearrance for the unstoppable Michael Vick. Roll forward to 2006-2007 and nobody wants Michael Vick within 100 feet of their starting quarterback position except the Falcons and, of course, Al Davis and the Raiders. If you are one dimensional (Mike Vick - Vince Young) the NFL will eat you alive. Gonna be a long next few years for VY.

First off VY is a lot a bigger and stronger, and Vick is probably a lot faster. The way the two run out of the pocket and create plays with their legs is so different. VY, theortically, should be able to run like that for many years because he doesn't launch himself like a missle, which is Vick's running style because he is so much smaller.

Second, the mechanics on how they throw are very different.

Third, just watch how they play and you can see how different their decision making process is.

The only two similarities is that they are black and run well outside the pocket.

I never heard any comparisons of Steve Young to John Elway to Fran Tarkentan, and so on like this, on their running ability

These two guys stand on their own and have very different talents, athletic ability, size, and so forth.

I am not saying VY will become an MJ in the NFL, but saying he won't because he is like Vick is just ridiculous.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 05:14 PM
This is what I have never gotten. NFL people said he might take 2-3 years because alot of them are idiots. Sorry but I'd trust some of the people here to run a draft then NFL people who look at combine stats and project players. The players that have always made the best impact are the ones who were stars in college and who showed that they were winners when it counted. VY did it and others have. It isn't that hard when it comes to some of these guys. In fact most rookies these days aren't afforded 2-3 years. If a guy is a winner and people gravitate to that, then it translates. Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years.

As far as Brady..you have to be kidding?The guy is one of the most clutch QBs in NFL history. If we took your way of looking at things then Montana would only be part of a system..after all he was surrounded by good players and had the father of the West Coast offense, Bill Walsh, as his coach. Brady takes scrubs every year and makes them better. It amazes me how people overlook things like poise in the pocket, how to slide out of the pocket, how to respond to bad games. Despite 3 Ints yesterday Brady still led them to 11 pts in the 4th quarter and they are moving on. He gets it.

What bothers me about people and the Carr talk is that people gloss people like VY in his rookie year or Brady now and act like you just need to get talent around certain QBs or that it is the system. If that was the case then every College QB with an arm would be waiting for the right team and system and Ryan Leaf would have succeeded. Some guys have it, some don't. I've been watching since 1976 and this has never changed. Again, no disrespect. JMO.

Geez and I get neg rep for a difference of opinion like this. I'm not getting that:). C'est la vie

Vinny
01-16-2007, 05:17 PM
Geez and I get neg rep for a difference of opinion like this. I'm not getting that:). C'est la vieyou got hit with the "Carr good attitude enforcement squad".

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 05:28 PM
you got hit with the "Carr good attitude enforcement squad".

Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.

TexansSeminole
01-16-2007, 05:31 PM
Haha "Carr didn't make improvements in my book. Improvements to me would be learning to throw a ball away or not eye raping your receivers. He has yet to learn that over 5 years." Funny stuff man.

Vinny
01-16-2007, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

Honoring Earl 34
01-16-2007, 05:33 PM
Thanks for the warning Vinny. I guess thought out and trying to nicely hold another opinion didn't work this time.

You got Bill Bixby'd .

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 05:37 PM
Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

I don't take it personally. I just figured those were used for bad flame jobs and rambling diatribes that got personal. I'll keep respecting the well written dissent. That's why we are here.

dirty steve
01-16-2007, 05:43 PM
Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.
i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

TexansSeminole
01-16-2007, 05:46 PM
i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

That kind of talk (talk of garcia, plummer, and draftees) is all over this board. Sometimes when your team's organization does not see something so obvious you just feel like saying something like "CARR FREAKIN BLOWS". Alot of people do that here on this board.

HoustonFrog
01-16-2007, 05:49 PM
i enjoy the opinion--i just would rather see people suggest what they feel could be possible solutions instead of the carr sucks this, carr sucks that,-type stuff. but since i am now one of those who feel #8 has seen his better days in Houston, i enjoy what people think of guys like garcia and plummer, or a draftee like brennan or kolb.

Maybe it is because I'm not paying attention but I actually see alot more well thought out reasons regarding why he should be gone than the other way. Either way, if it is well thought out, I'll read. I do like the alternative ones also.

hollywood_texan
01-16-2007, 07:45 PM
Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

Vinny, thanks for the general background on how you see this playing out, it is very good to know.

Much appreciated!!!!

ASTRODOME2002
01-17-2007, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Houston Frog

"If you even watched VY his last year in college and this year in any games..besides 2..you will know that his passing skills are light years ahead of where Vick's were when he came out."

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You know, that's not really saying much. Comparing Vince Youngs' passing skills to Michael Vicks' passing skills is like comparing a rotten apple to another rotten apple. They are both bad.


__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"VY's game does not include "run first." He ran when he had to but in general, stayed in the pocket.

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This has a lot to do with the offensive lines of both teams. The Titans had a better offensive line, so Young was able to stand in the pocket longer than Vick. Put Young behind the offensive line of the Texans and watch him revert back to his college days of run first, run second, run third and pass if you can't run fourth.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"He threw effectively against us here and made some deep throws that our QB has had trouble making."

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...and this proves what, that the Texans had a horrible defense last season? Now that's a surprise. Everybody threw the ball effectively against the Texans. But, to become the worst rated passer in the league (Vince Young) you have to be a really horrible passer. Just think, Young was worse as a passer than David Carr, Joey Harrington and Rex Grossman. Now that's saying something. Especially since the majority of Texans fans are ready to drive Carr straight to the airport.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
Originally Posted by HoustonFrog

"Oh yeah, and another big difference is that VY actually led a team to a championship while Vick has always been an athlete that has done well"

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LOL, Vince Young had a lot of help in leading Texas to the Rose Bowl and National Championship. How about comparing the football programs that they care from. There have been a lot more national championships at Texas than there have been at Virginia Tech. Has Virginia Tech even sniffed a National Championship?
Look, I'm not saying that Vince Young isn't a serviceable quarterback and that he'll be a bust. He's no Steve McNair though. Youngs' running ability far exceeds his throwing ability. It always has. That may be a good quality to have for a running back, but not for a quarterback. One day, Vince is going to have to throw the football and become a good passer (the same thing was said about Michael Vick). Vince hasn't shown the ability to be able to read defenses and throw the ball accurately on a consistant basis. These qualities don't just happen over-night. VY was on top of the world because his team helped him win games this season. He wasn't out there running around while the other guys sat on the sideline. His teammates had something to do with the Titans going on that winning streak. But, as I said in a previous post, teams will eventually figure out how to stop VY from running and he'll have to prove that he can throw in the NFL. I don't think he'll be able to adjust. Only time will tell.

HoustonFrog
01-17-2007, 11:56 AM
You know, that's not really saying much. Comparing Vince Youngs' passing skills to Michael Vicks' passing skills is like comparing a rotten apple to another rotten apple. They are both bad. This has a lot to do with the offensive lines of both teams. The Titans had a better offensive line, so Young was able to stand in the pocket longer than Vick. Put Young behind the offensive line of the Texans and watch him revert back to his college days of run first, run second, run third and pass if you can't run fourth....and this proves what, that the Texans had a horrible defense last season? Now that's a surprise. Everybody threw the ball effectively against the Texans. But, to become the worst rated passer in the league (Vince Young) you have to be a really horrible passer. Just think, Young was worse as a passer than David Carr, Joey Harrington and Rex Grossman. Now that's saying something. Especially since the majority of Texans fans are ready to drive Carr straight to the airport. LOL, Vince Young had a lot of help in leading Texas to the Rose Bowl and National Championship. How about comparing the football programs that they care from. There have been a lot more national championships at Texas than there have been at Virginia Tech. Has Virginia Tech even sniffed a National Championship?

Look, I'm not saying that Vince Young isn't a serviceable quarterback and that he'll be a bust. He's no Steve McNair though. Youngs' running ability far exceeds his throwing ability. It always has. That may be a good quality to have for a running back, but not for a quarterback. One day, Vince is going to have to throw the football and become a good passer (the same thing was said about Michael Vick). Vince hasn't shown the ability to be able to read defenses and throw the ball accurately on a consistant basis. These qualities don't just happen over-night. VY was on top of the world because his team helped him win games this season. He wasn't out there running around while the other guys sat on the sideline. His teammates had something to do with the Titans going on that winning streak. But, as I said in a previous post, teams will eventually figure out how to stop VY from running and he'll have to prove that he can throw in the NFL. I don't think he'll be able to adjust. Only time will tell.

I don't even know where to start. First of all I'm going to start by saying that hate for VY or random comparisons to other running QBs just makes no sense. Vick and VY have totally different games, came from different systems and in my book, it is foolish to just make a blanket statement about them. You never even answered if you saw more than 2 games and some highlights. First of all, Youngs completion percentage his last year in college was one of the highest out there and after working with Jerry Rhome in the off-season showed he can throw down the middle of the field and have touch on the deep ball. The guy is a rookie and unless you saw the games you have zero credibility saying they are both run only guys. Somehow though you try and cover yourself and say that even if VY was in the pocket more it was due to his O-line. No, it is due to the fact that with Chow as O-coordinator the Titans ran a pro-style offense while the Falcons, who had the top rushing offense in the league(bad line?) ran more of a west coast version. Vick took more sacks because they call more plays that are planned runs for him. Saying that the Titans had a better line just doesn't hold true. You then go off on tangents about the Texans D, etc. He did it against the Colts D and other teams to. Also, where do you get your general analysis of QBs based purely on passer rating and as a "passer." Harrington, Grossman and Carr are all sub-par to normal QBs who have been in the league multiple years. You are comparing a rookie and making general statements. And to answer your last part. Yes, VaTech has sniffed them. With Vick at the helm they had 2 11-1 seasons and played in a National Championship game. Your kidding yourself if you don't think VY wasn't the main reason they won his last year.

I'm not even sure how to respond to your last paragraph because it is filled with so many generalities and suppositions I don't even know where to go. I mean already comparing him to McNair, his mentor..taking his rookie stats and saying he can't throw..not acknowledging that he led them to a winning record after taking over and the fact that their rushing average went up but about 20 yards after he took over.....As I have said before. I'm not saying the guy will be great or HOF. But people who just want to hate and make general statements comparing him to other running QBs are just missing the boat and doing it for arguments sake. Here is something real quick. Stats

This was near the end of the year. VYs stats

169/320 (52.8%), 1,972 yards, 6.2 Yds/Att, 12 TD, 11 INT, 69.9 QB Rating

Here are stats on QBs since 1980 who played in at least 8 games as a Rookie and attempted at least 100 passes. The stats for that group are as follows:

151/283 (53.4%), 1,803 yards, 6.4 Yds/Att, 9.4 TD, 10.9 INT, 68.2 QB Rating

Coach C.
01-17-2007, 12:54 PM
I have been looking at QBs and doing a personal study of my own. I am going to let Morknolle post it since he enjoys the rep and what not, but I think it will be interesting to you all's debate. Just a tidbit, but it shows that Carr was not as bad as most think and that VY was better than Carr in critical game situations. He was not a better passer, but not to go to much into it, it should be interesting. Not sure when it will be finished and up, because the Senior Bowl is bout to start, but we want to get this indepth look done as to help people intelligently discuss the QB position.

Vinny
01-17-2007, 12:57 PM
I'm sure there were plenty of Einsteins knocking John Elway his rookie year too (Young had better stats his rookie year than Elway did). VY had a better rookie year than Carr had in his 4th season...the homerism will never end will it?

Porky
01-17-2007, 01:32 PM
I'm sure there were plenty of Einsteins knocking John Elway his rookie year too (Young had better stats his rookie year than Elway did). VY had a better rookie year than Carr had in his 4th season...the homerism will never end will it?

The short answer? No.

I am not going to add my opinion, but just wanted to say that Vinny and Houston Frog made a lot of excellent points, and I liked the way they debated the issue without getting personal. Kudos to both of you.

TEXANRED
01-17-2007, 02:24 PM
Don't let them intimidate you....most of them have an agenda...you are just giving your opinion. I don't see the fans disappointed in Carr going around and neg repping the Carr guys in the same manner....generally speaking of course.

Hey Vinny, is there anyway to make it when someone leaves neg or pos rep it automatically leaves your name?

Maybe it would cut down on some of the silly neg reps that are given, and trust me when I say that I have received silly neg reps.

Fiddy
01-17-2007, 02:40 PM
I love that the quickest way to be out of the coaching race was to say "I don't want David Carr." This just proves it, they hired Reeves and didnt listen to him because he went against Carr.

Vinny
01-17-2007, 02:56 PM
Hey Vinny, is there anyway to make it when someone leaves neg or pos rep it automatically leaves your name?

Maybe it would cut down on some of the silly neg reps that are given, and trust me when I say that I have received silly neg reps.that actually makes it worse....we lost our PM's due to threats on the old ignite boards. Some occasional blind peer pressure works if it is mature....immature folks tend to ruin everything regardless if the rep comments are named or not. I may take away neg reps one day though. I did that at the 49er board because it was abused too much. If it comes to it I will...but this board is a bit more mature across the board than that one.

btw: I just searched your history and only see 3 neg reps out of 22 total reps since December 05....and none of them are ugly at all.

threetoedpete
01-17-2007, 03:08 PM
I feel like every UT fan here wanted VY to be a , but that's about it. which is understandable.(in general) He wasn't rated as the top quarterback in the class..Leinart then young...but cutler could have been rated higher. drafting Young at 3 above the other qb's was a stretch much less #1 overall.

The other half probably wanted reggie...me included. coming up to the few days before the draft was the first time I actually read about mario and his possibility here and wasn't upset..I thought it could be a good way for the franchise to go...young still no where near in the picture..esp w/ carr here for another 2 years and a 8mill bonus.

After the season...I am glad we didn't get reggie. Not because I think he's going to be a monumental bust, or anything, but because I don't think he would have added as much value to our team than other players. period.

I would rather have mario than reggie. plain and simple. Now that the season is over...for most of us anyways. go colts!..we beat them. I like what VY did. I'm not a UT fan...actually more of an aggie. VY surprised me very much. I among with many others didnt think he would transition into the NFL quite the way he did...esp this quickly.

Looking back on the past..I might have drafted VY...if we didn't give carr a bonus...once we did that VY was out of the picture.

I also supported a trade down but again looking back on the fact I'm glad we didnt. we most likely would have missed on Mario...if we traded down and proabably wouldnt have gotten a good deal anyways.

A lot of people are hating on McNair. I think he's a standup guy and a fine owner...much better than benson and bud!! He got rid of Capers...the other coaching staff. hired all new guys. and people are still upset we have carr. I don't think it's totally mcnairs fault. for whoever said bob just wants a team of friends...capers was a good guy. very nice guy but he got rid of him. we needed a new coach so as Ricky Bobby said, "That just happened!" Things are changing around reliant...and things are changing for the better.

I have faith in the current staff that they are making things a lot better. There are a few people on here that will disagree till they die and that's fine but I know the vast majority of texans fans are pleased with the progress.

This last draft was phenominal. (say we traded down...mario was gone. say dbrick was gone. next BPA was AJ Hawk ..the best LB in the draft. we pick him.....not demeco. Man! that sucked...nothing against AJ he's really is good but I am biased!) Say we pick D'Brick...thanks Dayne for breaking the leg of the $50 million LT instead of the 3rd rder! lol only kidding.

We have so many possibilities next draft and FA..it's going to be amazing, awesome, and heartbreaking.

For all those die hard UT fans and VY fans that 'new' he would be the same winner and leader. I say half of yall were full of it. To the other half that really did know it ...awesome...he surprised me and hope he does awesome in the nfl..so long as we can contain him...that's fine.

Go mario, demeco...go texans! the foundation of the future of the texans and i'm excited!

I'm outta rep but here's an atta boy. Nice post. You also Texansred. Never under estimate VY man love. fifty two percent is 52 %. And that number is never going to go up. JMHO. Might be good enough to get them to the SB.

The Dream
01-17-2007, 04:54 PM
I can't believe there are people who would still take Mario over Bush.....

Tayton
01-17-2007, 04:56 PM
I've tried to read thru this post and be objective. Posters (even seasoned ones) spew off stats when they agree with their arguement and rebuff them as just numbers when they don't. The truth is this team had alot of holes and we were switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3. We had NO Defensive Ends. If I knew how to selectively quote I would tend to agree with alot of what Astrodome 2002 posted. I'm not a big Carr fan nor am I a Vince fan. I agree that Vince is a running QB, maybe he can transform over the next few years. Maybe the NFL figures him out, makes him throw, and he's a bust. I for one have much more confidence in this staff moving forward to do what is right and make the team better. I therefore have officially decided to quit reading "Draft 2006" posts.

The Dream
01-17-2007, 05:08 PM
I've tried to read thru this post and be objective. Posters (even seasoned ones) spew off stats when they agree with their arguement and rebuff them as just numbers when they don't. The truth is this team had alot of holes and we were switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3. We had NO Defensive Ends. If I knew how to selectively quote I would tend to agree with alot of what Astrodome 2002 posted. I'm not a big Carr fan nor am I a Vince fan. I agree that Vince is a running QB, maybe he can transform over the next few years. Maybe the NFL figures him out, makes him throw, and he's a bust. I for one have much more confidence in this staff moving forward to do what is right and make the team better. I therefore have officially decided to quit reading "Draft 2006" posts.


VY = more than just a "running" QB...oh when will you people learn.....

mexican_texan
01-17-2007, 05:15 PM
I can't believe there are people who would still take Mario over Bush.....
Don't want to get into this again, but I stand by the decision to take Mario. You see teammates raving about Mario, wanting to see a healthy Mario for a full year. I'm the same.

mexican_texan
01-17-2007, 05:19 PM
I love that the quickest way to be out of the coaching race was to say "I don't want David Carr." This just proves it, they hired Reeves and didnt listen to him because he went against Carr.
IIRC, Reeves and "many other coaches" said Carr wasn't to blame for his failures and could succeed as an NFL QB. I'm guessing Mike Shannahan, Denny Green, and Bud Adams were among those who said Carr could succeed.

mexican_texan
01-17-2007, 05:20 PM
Ben played pretty well all through the season. One not so good game doesn't mean you can win, let a lone get to, the superbowl with bad QB play.
Weren't some Pitt fans calling for Charlie Batch throughout the year?

Double Barrel
01-17-2007, 05:53 PM
IIRC, Reeves and "many other coaches" said Carr wasn't to blame for his failures and could succeed as an NFL QB. I'm guessing Mike Shannahan, Denny Green, and Bud Adams were among those who said Carr could succeed.

I'm pretty sure Bud told Bob McNair that Casserly was a great GM, too.... :hmmm:

Vinny
01-17-2007, 06:14 PM
Weren't some Pitt fans calling for Charlie Batch throughout the year?
Only the real dumb ones

Tulip
01-17-2007, 06:50 PM
I can't believe there are people who would still take Mario over Bush.....

I'm one of those people. Actually, I was one of those people until today, when people like John McClain started talking about drafting Adrian Peterson. I'm pretty lukewarm about that pick.

Erratic Assassin
01-17-2007, 09:31 PM
I'm happy we drafted Mario instead.

Do you think Tennessee would be interested in trading Vince Young for Mario straight up?

Texans_Chick
01-17-2007, 09:32 PM
Here's further info on what Reeves opinion on this stuff is:

"Dan Reeves: Futher Explains His View on Vince Young, Reggie Bush and Mario Williams" (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2007/01/17/dan-reeves-futher-explains-his-view-on-vince-young-reggie-bush/)

Apparently he was as surprised with the pick as everyone else. Sounds like he was out of the picture after Kubiak's hiring. In the same press conference, he says about Kubiak:

"there’s no question in my mind that he’ll be extremely successful here."

mexican_texan
01-17-2007, 09:32 PM
Do you think Tennessee would be interested in trading Vince Young for Mario straight up?
Maybe if we threw in a double-wide.

VY's Crib U Jus payn Rent
01-18-2007, 08:59 PM
Yea too bad Bobby is a dumb a55 with a big ego...

MasterBasser
01-19-2007, 10:31 AM
I sure wish we would have drafted Vince Young instead of Mario Williams. At least that way the games would be televised. In Austin and San Antonio we get Titan games and no Texans games. Sucks having to listen to the games on the radio. I go to the bar to watch some games and the Texans get thrown on the 13" TV in the corner while Vince and the Titans are on the main screen with audio.