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Toro
01-12-2007, 03:58 PM
Anyone think he'll be back next year, or do you WANT him back?

I think he and Mario could be a solid pair of disruptive pass rushers at DE, and I'm still on this guy's bandwagon.

TEXANS84
01-12-2007, 04:02 PM
Never been on the Babin bandwagon.

It may not be him, I just still have a sour taste of all the draft picks we gave up to get him. But if I had a choice, I'd obviously go with Peek over Babin.

HOU-TEX
01-12-2007, 04:09 PM
Never been on the Babin bandwagon.

It may not be him, I just still have a sour taste of all the draft picks we gave up to get him. But if I had a choice, I'd obviously go with Peek over Babin.

Agreed! Even though they're both average IMO, I'd take Peek over Babin as well. I just hope Kubiak hasn't lost faith in him due to not being able to stay healthy.:)

mexican_texan
01-12-2007, 04:14 PM
I'm on the Babin bandwagon. Kinda lonely.

Mr. White
01-12-2007, 04:18 PM
I guess if I had to pick one or the other, I'd go with Babin. Peek's got one hell of a motor, but his tires seem to go flat pretty often.

thetexanator
01-12-2007, 04:22 PM
pretty messed up that the 3rd rd pick is comparable to the 1st rder.

thanks again cass.

hadaad
01-12-2007, 04:25 PM
I'm still waiting for more from Babin.
As an OLB he was good against the run. As an End he's good against the pass.
I hope he finds his niche, that's for sure, because he wasn't cheap.

Texian
01-12-2007, 04:27 PM
Babin will be here next year, not sure he will be the starter. I look for a the Texans to draft a Premier rushing DE w/ pic 1. Peek is a FA and probably be gone, I don't see spending the bucks he will want to bring him back.

Dime
01-12-2007, 04:30 PM
On Babin's Wagon..

TheRealJoker
01-12-2007, 04:32 PM
I think Babin will be able to get 8-10 sacks next year as our 3rd down pass rush specialist if we can pick up a good dt during the offseason and the d-line isn't gutted by injuries like last season.

Double Barrel
01-12-2007, 04:50 PM
I'm in between about Babin. He's just never impressed me, even though I've really wanted him to succeed. Although he was our sack leader this season...which doesn't really say all that much...

threetoedpete
01-12-2007, 04:52 PM
Both players are caught, through no falut of their own, in being in a bad position. Peek can't play with his knuckles off the ground. And Babin's
predraft reports of him being the lost son of Kevin Green were greatly exagerated. They were both terrible reaches by an uninformed, incompedent staff. TBS, they are two warm bodies that produce. My thought is does Babin have any trade value what so ever ? Are there any teams that would gamble with him as a 3-4 guy who was coached up poorly here. We know he can rush the paser a bit. Just wondering if that's worth an early day two pick ? Peek is what he is. High motor, no einstein. Basically all you can do with him is turn him loose to rush the passer. I can see them by passing the the stud RB and fixing the Babin/Peek end with the eight. One thing for sure, if we do resign one of them...it's going to be cheap.

phantom17
01-12-2007, 04:58 PM
J. Babin is a good, solid player (team leader with 5 sacks), but I think we gave up too many picks to the the Titans! I think he has to have 14-15 sacks or more next year to justify the many picks we gave up.:hides: :) We shall see! GO TEXANS!

nunusguy
01-12-2007, 05:08 PM
I think he will eventually end up with a 3-4 team like the one that drafted him.
He is a versatile player who has good lateral pursuit and tackling skills while also being a descent pass rusher. And his optimum size where he's most effective is in the 250-255 range and not 265-270. In other words, he's just
a bit undersized to be and NFL 4-3 DE.

MorKnolle
01-12-2007, 05:20 PM
I'm not particularly fond of him but I'm quite sure he'll be back. He's a decent pass rusher although he's pretty wretched against the run. He provided a decent pass rush at times this year and he's not particularly expensive yet, not to mention I'm pretty sure he costs us more on the 2007 cap to get rid of than to keep, so I think he'll be here. There is an outside chance he gets beat out for a roster spot in training camp, but he'll at least be around to then.

baba ganoush
01-12-2007, 07:20 PM
peek over babin any day of the week...i like what peek brings to the table in terms of effort, there was a reason babin was benched when capers was around...

TexanFanInCC
01-12-2007, 07:49 PM
Anyone think he'll be back next year, or do you WANT him back?

I think he and Mario could be a solid pair of disruptive pass rushers at DE, and I'm still on this guy's bandwagon.

he quietly had a decent yr as a pass rusher. nobody talks about him. i would be in favor of giving him an increased role at DE next season. problem is where does weaver go?

AustinJB
01-12-2007, 07:53 PM
Babin is too slow as an OLB and too much of a liability against the run as a DE.

Peek has the athleticism and fire that you look for but has no discipline and gets injured too much. Neither one should be much more than a decent backup

More wasted picks. Cut your losses and move on....JMO.

BattleRedToro
01-12-2007, 07:54 PM
peek over babin any day of the week...i like what peek brings to the table in terms of effort, there was a reason babin was benched when capers was around...

It was called an injury. While he was out with his injury, Orr took advantage of his opportunity and earned the starting position.

BattleRedToro
01-12-2007, 07:56 PM
Babin is too slow as an OLB and too much of a liability against the run as a DE.

Peek has the athleticism and fire that you look for but has no discipline and gets injured too much. Neither one should be much more than a decent backup

More wasted picks. Cut your losses and move on....JMO.

Or if they can be resigned for a good price keep them for backups until the Texans can replace them.

V Man
01-12-2007, 08:17 PM
Never been on the Babin bandwagon.

It may not be him, I just still have a sour taste of all the draft picks we gave up to get him. But if I had a choice, I'd obviously go with Peek over Babin.

If we get rid of him, can we get our picks back. Maybe if Capers gets a head job, we can trade him for a 2nd and 3rd.:ok:

Vinny
01-12-2007, 08:21 PM
It's not like the Titans haul was that great now that a few years have passed. Starks has shown why he slid in the draft, Laboy, Bo Schobel and Antwan Odom are nothing special either. We could have kept the picks and gotten all those really not so special guys. We could have hung in there and picked up Troupe, but he has been nothing but a dissapointment also. That draft class wasn't overly talented.

eriadoc
01-12-2007, 08:32 PM
Babin will probably never be worth what was given up for him, at least on the surface. The Titans didn't end up with as much from the trade as they could have maybe. If Casserly had used those picks, you think we'd be any better off?

Babin's a good player. He's not a marquee player, but he has talent and he produces when given the chance. He did have 6 sacks this year in much more limited time than Weaver or Mario. Even in plays that did not result in a sack, he put pressure on the QB substantially more often than our other pass rushers, again in limited playing time. At the very least, he can be a valuable role player for this team and perhaps a pretty decent DE across from Mario, if given the chance. At any rate, it doesn't make sense to not bring him back, because he does contribute and he does provide valuable depth on the DL. If you can get past the hang-up of the draft picks spent to acquire him, you can objectively evaluate his performance and realize he's a contributor.

MorKnolle
01-12-2007, 08:34 PM
It's not like the Titans haul was that great now that a few years have passed. Starks has shown why he slid in the draft, Laboy, Bo Schobel and Antwan Odom are nothing special either. We could have kept the picks and gotten all those really not so special guys. We could have hung in there and picked up Troupe, but he has been nothing but a dissapointment also. That draft class wasn't overly talented.

True, that was a pretty shallow draft and looking back at it we really didn't miss out on much talent by trading those picks (not just talking about Titans' picks, but anyone in between there other than Bob Sanders who was taken two picks after Travis LaBoy), although I still would have rather gotten something better than Babin for all that we gave away. We could have at least grabbed Chris Gamble instead of Babin, our defense would have been a lot better with that move, although that would have been two 1st round CBs with Aaron Glenn still on the roster.

V Man
01-12-2007, 08:35 PM
It's not like the Titans haul was that great now that a few years have passed. Starks has shown why he slid in the draft, Laboy, Bo Schobel and Antwan Odom are nothing special either. We could have kept the picks and gotten all those really not so special guys. We could have hung in there and picked up Troupe, but he has been nothing but a dissapointment also. That draft class wasn't overly talented.

Agreed that none of those guys are outstanding, they would serve as depth. Something we don't have. 4 backups > 1 backup

Toro
01-12-2007, 08:54 PM
Babin will probably never be worth what was given up for him, at least on the surface. The Titans didn't end up with as much from the trade as they could have maybe. If Casserly had used those picks, you think we'd be any better off?

Babin's a good player. He's not a marquee player, but he has talent and he produces when given the chance. He did have 6 sacks this year in much more limited time than Weaver or Mario. Even in plays that did not result in a sack, he put pressure on the QB substantially more often than our other pass rushers, again in limited playing time. At the very least, he can be a valuable role player for this team and perhaps a pretty decent DE across from Mario, if given the chance. At any rate, it doesn't make sense to not bring him back, because he does contribute and he does provide valuable depth on the DL. If you can get past the hang-up of the draft picks spent to acquire him, you can objectively evaluate his performance and realize he's a contributor.

Valuable insite eria.. I honestly think that we've got that premier playmaker, that disruptive force at DE with Mario. I think as he matures in to one of the top DE in the game (which I think you saw glimpses of this year, and will see more improvement next year), teams will double and triple block this guy, which will open up the lanes for the DT-other DE.. I honestly think that Babin is capable of being that guy who plays the Adawale Ogunleye to our Jason Taylor, the guy who gets double figure sacks yearly benefitting from the double coverage put on Mario.

I also agree that there's a lot of negativity put on the guy's shoulders because of what it took to acquire him, and being he is considered one of Casserly's guys. I honestly do think we have a hidden gem here, who will only continue to grow and improve.

johnboy
01-12-2007, 09:08 PM
I think the Texans will bring Babin back.
He did get to the QB more than onyone else.
Babins stats are better than Marios or Weavers
if you consider he played only about 25% of the time the other two played.
Marios 35 tackles 12 assits 4 1/2 sacks (one of them was a gift) (54 Mil)
Weavers 26 tackles 9 assits 1 sack (about 12 mil)
Babins 19 tackles 7 assits 5 sacks (5.2 Mil)
Who's the better dollar valve.

hot pickle
01-12-2007, 09:17 PM
I think the Texans will bring Babin back.
He did get to the QB more than onyone else.
Babins stats are better than Marios or Weavers
if you consider he played only about 25% of the time the other two played.
Marios 35 tackles 12 assits 4 1/2 sacks (one of them was a gift) (54 Mil)
Weavers 26 tackles 9 assits 1 sack (about 12 mil)
Babins 19 tackles 7 assits 5 sacks (5.2 Mil)
Who's the better dollar valve.

and a sack is a sack, you dont have to make it look like he only got 3.5

thunderkyss
01-12-2007, 10:00 PM
I'm in between about Babin. He's just never impressed me, even though I've really wanted him to succeed. Although he was our sack leader this season...which doesn't really say all that much...

Mario was our sack leader, with 5.5 sacks.

they robbed him of the sack he should have got when CharlieFrye was called for intentional grounding at the 2 yard line.

t_flare
01-12-2007, 10:35 PM
if he can improved into a 4-3 DE it would be nice to move Weaver inside and draft a DT in the 1st round..

dbspi
01-13-2007, 01:59 AM
For the price we paid to acquire him, he is not even a starting DE. So far his production has been nothing more then average at best.

It would be better if we were to trade him this off season for second or third round and try to use that pick to fill in other needs.

I don't believe we will sign Peek this off season, he has better athleticism but he has been too much injury prone.

beerlover
01-13-2007, 02:47 AM
question is- Babin getting paid 1st rd. :money:

forget about spilled milk, lets put Casserlys blunder behind us. his play is average = a high 3rd pick. restructure his contract to reflect that value or let him become a free agent next year. just don't see him as a keeper but more of a role player @ the right price.

ATX
01-13-2007, 03:28 AM
question is- Babin getting paid 1st rd. :money:

forget about spilled milk, lets put Casserlys blunder behind us. his play is average = a high 3rd pick. restructure his contract to reflect that value or let him become a free agent next year. just don't see him as a keeper but more of a role player @ the right price.

Yep, definitely adds depth to the DE position, but not starter material. I'd keep him just for the fact that he's a proven backup and we all know that depth is important in this league.

johnboy
01-13-2007, 07:52 AM
For the price we paid to acquire him, he is not even a starting DE. So far his production has been nothing more then average at best.

It would be better if we were to trade him this off season for second or third round and try to use that pick to fill in other needs.

I don't believe we will sign Peek this off season, he has better athleticism but he has been too much injury prone.

Funny he is in there when the game is on the line.There is a old saying its not who starts it who in there when the game is on the line, look at the films.
Plus we need subs that can play.

thunderkyss
01-13-2007, 09:03 AM
Yep, definitely adds depth to the DE position, but not starter material. I'd keep him just for the fact that he's a proven backup and we all know that depth is important in this league.

this starter stuff is kinda funny......... Weaver gets first round money, and he wasn't/isn't a first rounder. I don't think he is any more a starter at DE than Babin is. Weaver gets no push from the DE spot............ Babin Does. He actually laid his hands on McNabb....... no one else did. Well, Weaver did fall on him. Babin also got a couple of good hits on Peyton.

his production has gone down quite a bit, but he is seeing less field time. I believe he puts just as much Pressure on the QB as Mario does....... & their numbers show it, even though Babin isn't a starter.

& Babin plays pretty well against the run. He's got a lot of motor........ the only thing I don't like about JB, is that gut. You'd think that would slow him down... just like Gado..... I don't care how fast he is with the gut, he'd be faster without it.

coachdent
01-13-2007, 09:29 AM
I think Babin will be able to get 8-10 sacks next year as our 3rd down pass rush specialist if we can pick up a good dt during the offseason and the d-line isn't gutted by injuries like last season.

If Jason Babin gets 8-10 sacks next year, I think it is officially time to declare that we are not of this world anymore! Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!

I'd settle for 5-6 and call it an incredible success. This pick epitomizes the woeful, ill-advised picks that continue to haunt this franchsise. An absolute disgrace of a pick that has set us back years. Not Jason's fault, but he was a marginal two, probable third rounder who we traded UP for.

coachdent
01-13-2007, 09:30 AM
question is- Babin getting paid 1st rd. :money:

forget about spilled milk, lets put Casserlys blunder behind us. his play is average = a high 3rd pick. restructure his contract to reflect that value or let him become a free agent next year. just don't see him as a keeper but more of a role player @ the right price.

I agree.

coachdent
01-13-2007, 09:32 AM
For the price we paid to acquire him, he is not even a starting DE. So far his production has been nothing more then average at best.

It would be better if we were to trade him this off season for second or third round and try to use that pick to fill in other needs.

I don't believe we will sign Peek this off season, he has better athleticism but he has been too much injury prone.

We made the mistake getting Babin in the first round and then having to pay him first round money. He was a third rounder then and has not panned out to be very impressive at all. What team would then give us a SECOND rounder to us or even a third? Hopefully Charlie Casserly can get a job with Washington or something, because he would be the only fool to make a deal like that. Give up a second for a guy now not worthy of a fourth or fifth, AND then pay him 1st round money? I expect an announcement in the Wahington Post this Sunday!

thunderkyss
01-13-2007, 09:38 AM
If Jason Babin gets 8-10 sacks next year, I think it is officially time to declare that we are not of this world anymore! Dogs and cats living together...mass hysteria!

I'd settle for 5-6 and call it an incredible success. This pick epitomizes the woeful, ill-advised picks that continue to haunt this franchsise. An absolute disgrace of a pick that has set us back years. Not Jason's fault, but he was a marginal two, probable third rounder who we traded UP for.

Lots of teams have missed on players much worse than we did on Babin. To deny his contributions to the team is insane..

8-10 sacks from Jason Babin?? yeah, he'd have got that this year, if our guys could cover for 2.5 seconds.

t_flare
01-13-2007, 10:20 AM
just remember he was drafted to play a 3-4 linebacker.. he is lighter than 4-3 linebackers because he need speed to play 3-4.. i think he had 4 sacks in his rookie season and 4 sacks in 8 games last year because of injures cost him 8 games and this year he had 5 in a 4-3 where he wasnt drafted to play not alone played part time.

I like babin and he could be a good player... I think he will gain weight and work out more and he has a chance to start and weaver goes inside

Texans_Chick
01-13-2007, 10:42 AM
I think one of Casserly's errors is his mental devaluation of lower round draft picks.

He would always talk about the long odds that 3rd round draft picks had in the league. (I can't remember the specific stat he used about how few of them made it in the league).

But in my mind, draft picks are especially dear to a team that did not exist prior to 2002. That maybe a 3rd round draft pick is a long shot for a more established team that has veterans on it who have been in the league longer than the Texans have existed, but that on the Texans lower round draft picks have the opportunity to play a significant part on the team, and have.

Neither here nor there, I suppose. I agree with Mork's take on this.

Bygones.

dbspi
01-13-2007, 02:16 PM
question is- Babin getting paid 1st rd. :money:

forget about spilled milk, lets put Casserlys blunder behind us. his play is average = a high 3rd pick. restructure his contract to reflect that value or let him become a free agent next year. just don't see him as a keeper but more of a role player @ the right price.

yeah

dbspi
01-13-2007, 02:23 PM
I agree.

This year is all about clearing Casserly mistake, sooner we are able to do it better off we be in long range. Not only did Casserly wasted our pick the first three years of our existence but he tied huge amount of money to bad personnel mistake. It will couple more years, before we are out of it.

dbspi
01-13-2007, 02:31 PM
this starter stuff is kinda funny......... Weaver gets first round money, and he wasn't/isn't a first rounder. I don't think he is any more a starter at DE than Babin is. Weaver gets no push from the DE spot............ Babin Does. He actually laid his hands on McNabb....... no one else did. Well, Weaver did fall on him. Babin also got a couple of good hits on Peyton.

his production has gone down quite a bit, but he is seeing less field time. I believe he puts just as much Pressure on the QB as Mario does....... & their numbers show it, even though Babin isn't a starter.

& Babin plays pretty well against the run. He's got a lot of motor........ the only thing I don't like about JB, is that gut. You'd think that would slow him down... just like Gado..... I don't care how fast he is with the gut, he'd be faster without it.

Weaver has played well against the run but he is not an impact DE from pass rushing perspective and nor will he ever be. We need to find another physical freak who can provide us that impact playing across Mario. Some one who can have impact on games in both pass rush and run defense.

We over paid for Weaver as well last year but thats the price you pay for being bad ball club. I think Kubiak brought him here due to his work ethic and professionalism and hoped that trait will trickle down to the rest of the defensive unit. He needed to find some stability along DL and Weaver provides that for us.

We really need some one like Marriman clone on our DL.

yourfavoritetexan42
01-13-2007, 04:10 PM
People jumped on the "hate babin bandwagon" way too fast. He was a bad 3-4 outsidelinebacker. Yes I will agree... but in the 4-3 this year... he seemed pretty good. He seems like that is where he belongs, just a defensive end in a 4 front. He had 5 sacks and he was only in 30% of the time. If he bulked up a bit and put on some weight, he might be an every down defensive end. I would definately like us to keep him, and peek as well.

Insideop
01-13-2007, 08:08 PM
Don't know how Smith and Kubes will deal with this area, but I think they won't keep both Peek and Babin. They have several options as I see it. They could keep Babin and resign Peek. They could keep Babin and let Peek go in FA. They could try to trade Babin and keep Peek. They could try to trade Babin, let Peek go in FA, and draft a DE or get a DE in FA. There are other things they could do but you get the idea. They have options.

Anyway, if it were me, I think Babin has some trade value and we should try to trade him for a draft pick or picks. I think he's a solid player, not outstanding, but solid, and if they decide to keep him it won't bother me either. I just don't see them keeping both Peek and Babin next season and they could end up getting rid of both. Just don't know at this time. idonno: Should be fun to watch it all unfold though!

the wonger need food
01-13-2007, 08:20 PM
Babin is virtually worthless on the trade market. We're pretty much stuck with him and his 1st round contract.

edo783
01-13-2007, 08:50 PM
Probably keep Babin and let Peek go if it's a choice between the two as he is the more complete player.

Toro
01-13-2007, 09:34 PM
We really need some one like Marriman clone on our DL.

I think we have that in Mario Williams.

ArlingtonTexan
01-14-2007, 08:36 AM
I think one of Casserly's errors is his mental devaluation of lower round draft picks.

He would always talk about the long odds that 3rd round draft picks had in the league. (I can't remember the specific stat he used about how few of them made it in the league).

But in my mind, draft picks are especially dear to a team that did not exist prior to 2002. That maybe a 3rd round draft pick is a long shot for a more established team that has veterans on it who have been in the league longer than the Texans have existed, but that on the Texans lower round draft picks have the opportunity to play a significant part on the team, and have.

Neither here nor there, I suppose. I agree with Mork's take on this.

Bygones.

He spit out the numbers on the percentage of players who are starters 4 years out from the draft day. Doing this w/o :coffee: but I think I in the neighborhood of his percentages.

1st round 75%
2nd round 50%
3rd round 33%
4th round 20%
5th round 15%
6th round 10%
7th round 5%

While casserly did not have the total disregard for draft picks that Redskins organization show, there is no doubt that his leanings are to acquiring picks to trade picks versus seeing every pick as a player. Combine that with Capers complex systems and poor record of developing youth at Carolina, in hindsight the diaster should have been more predictable up front.

ArlingtonTexan
01-14-2007, 08:42 AM
Probably keep Babin and let Peek go if it's a choice between the two as he is the more complete player.

Babin is better against the run and Peek is better on Special teams, but as pass rushers they seem like halves of a coin. Babin has the multiple moves which he does not have the pure speed and quickness the set up properly, while Peek has the pure speed and quickness off the ball w/o any other moves. If you could combine them in one body you would have something.

coachdent
01-14-2007, 12:36 PM
Lots of teams have missed on players much worse than we did on Babin. To deny his contributions to the team is insane..

8-10 sacks from Jason Babin?? yeah, he'd have got that this year, if our guys could cover for 2.5 seconds.

I don't care about mistakes made by other teams and NO... lots of teams haven't missed that big by giving up multiple picks to move up for a third rounder. The only real comparison would be the Saints giving up all of their draft picks for Ricky Williams. If you are comfortable in that company, be my guest.

The pick hurt us in the long run...no question.

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 01:58 PM
I think we have that in Mario Williams.

Is that a joke?

Toro
01-14-2007, 06:04 PM
Is that a joke?

Someone who stops the run and disrupts the quarterback on every play? No.. I'm not kidding when I say Mario can become that.

BattleRedToro
01-14-2007, 07:18 PM
Babin is better against the run and Peek is better on Special teams, but as pass rushers they seem like halves of a coin. Babin has the multiple moves which he does not have the pure speed and quickness the set up properly, while Peek has the pure speed and quickness off the ball w/o any other moves. If you could combine them in one body you would have something.

:secret: Now you're talkin'. We need to get our Mad Scientists working on our Frankensack Machine: Jantwan Babineek. :yes:

stevo3883
01-14-2007, 07:36 PM
Someone who stops the run and disrupts the quarterback on every play? No.. I'm not kidding when I say Mario can become that.


merriman is the best pass-rusher in the league.

you said we have that in mario, so I thought you were talking right now.

Vinny
01-14-2007, 07:38 PM
Mario disappeared for long streches...one reason everyone across the nation that listed a "top ten" rookie list had Mario nowhere on any list....Jason Babin was a part time player and had more sacks than Mario. You don't take projects at #1 either.....Bob McNair himself said that we picked Mario because we want to win "right now".....so that argument is lame. Mario has great potential....just like David Carr, but potential doesn't win in this league. Realizing that potential is what wins. Potential means you ain't done it yet.