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View Full Version : What did Davis do to the offense - Part II


Fiddy
10-11-2004, 12:38 PM
At the end of last season I compiled stats to figure out what exactly Davis did to the offense (here it is: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=909)

So after 5 games this season, I have complied stats once again. My stats are based on 2 games and a 1/2 of the Vikings game so the time is split in half. Davis played a big role in the first half against the Vikes and a small role in the second so I looked at the play-by-play and got the stats for each half. I will now compare what happens to Carr and Johnson when Davis plays a big role and when Davis plays a small role.

When Davis plays a big role in the offense- 2-1/2 games (Chargers, Lions, first half against Vikes)

David Carr's Stats:
Completions - 50
Attempts - 72
Yards - 626
Touchdowns - 2
INTs - 3
Avg per completion - 12.5

Andre Johnson Stats:
Receptions - 13
Yards - 199
TDs - 1
Avg - 15.3

Total Points scored by offense - 36
Total Turnovers by the offense - 7
Record 0-3 (We lost the first half of the Vikes game)

When Davis plays a small or no role in the offense 2-1/2 games (KC, Oakland. other 1/2 of Vikes game)

David Carr's Stats:
Completions - 46
Attempts - 78
Yards - 749
Touchdowns - 5
INTs - 1
Avg per completion - 16

Andre Johnson Stats:
Receptions - 16
Yards - 326
TDs - 3
Avg - 20.4

Total Points scored by offense - 68 (I took out the 2 defensive TDs)
Total Turnovers by the offense - 2
Record 3-0 (We won the second half of the Vikes game)

The important stats are the total points scored, the turnovers, and the wins by the teams. The stats are excat opposites. You may take these stats as you want to take them, but I will stay opposed to Davis playing a big role in the offense.

El Tejano
10-11-2004, 12:41 PM
I will too unfortunately but hey the proof is in the game and you can just see it. Davis needs to be an arsenal in the offense, not the main gun.

RTP2110
10-11-2004, 12:46 PM
I agree. You don't have to do much digging to see the ''Domanick Davis Difference" in this offense. I just don't understand why dd is so prioritized in the offense when our passing game unbelievably effective.

infantrycak
10-11-2004, 01:04 PM
Domanick's presence in the game has not caused David Carr to complete just 40.7% (11 of 27) of his pass attempts in the 1st quarter. The Texans have taken some shots in the 1st but David has not executed. David has to step up his game in the 1st to match his other three quarters.

ledzeppelin229
10-11-2004, 01:09 PM
I don't think you can really blame Davis for all this. It all starts with Carr and the coaches, and if we were using Davis properly (as in using the pass to setup the run) he could have some big games when teams backoff to cover our WRs. I just wonder if Hollings or Wells was playing as much as him, would we see the exact same thing? He also doesn't seem to have even the tiniest hole to squeak through. What happened to those giant holes last season that allowed him to run in space? That's where he's most valuable.

I don't think it's Fiddy's intention but it sometimes seems to come across to me like he just cant wait for Davis to screw something up so he can get his boy Hollings in the game.

All in all, I do agree it's obvious the offense is being misused early in the game, and the overall focus should be on our big play WRs and not Davis (who isn't getting the blocking he needs to be running well anyway). Especially when the defenses glaring weakness IS its pass defense.

Vinny
10-11-2004, 01:17 PM
I tend to think that Dom's long term outlook in the NFL is as a 3rd down back and I don't think he is any more talented than guys like Kevin Faulk or Moe Williams (they are third down backs on their teams). Yesterday we faced a guy in M Moore that is prety much the same type back as Dom. Sure he got some yards on us but he is slow and not much of a threat. No way Moore keeps his job when the other Viking backs get healthy.

Dom has 70 runs this year with a long of 10 yards. He is not a threat to score except inside the 10 yard line for the most part and teams tend to give us dump off passes when we are between the 20's when he is in the game. If Hollings can't step up and take the position we will draft a back on the first day of the draft next year. Book it.

RTP2110
10-11-2004, 01:21 PM
I agree with Vinny 100%. While I've always been impressed with DD, I've never really had confidence in him as an every down back.

RTP2110
10-11-2004, 01:23 PM
Wasn't it because of DD that we didn't take a RB on the 1st day this year? Wasn't the plan to draft a QB, then WR, and RB was supposed to be the final peice of the puzzle?

Fiddy
10-11-2004, 01:28 PM
I don't think it's Fiddy's intention but it sometimes seems to come across to me like he just cant wait for Davis to screw something up so he can get his boy Hollings in the game.It is not my intention to do that. I just want what is best for the team. If Wells is the better back, then put him in. It is no secret that I would like Hollings to get a chance but I do agree with Vinny that we could draft a back on the first day if no one proves they are an everydown back...

SBTexans08
10-11-2004, 02:53 PM
I agree as well. I just don't think this year's draft had what we were looking for though. Hopefully next year's draft has something in store for the Texans in that department.

Sarg01
10-11-2004, 02:56 PM
I think you're looking at symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself.

It's not that Davis is a worse back than Wells or Hollings. It's that everyone in the NFL knows that the Texans are going to run the ball more than most other teams. Thus they either give up yards to Davis OR ease up a little on the deep range in order to protect the short ranges and stop the run. This is a good reason why Carr's ypa is high despite a relative lack of deep shots taken on offense. We actually have the keys for a balanced offense ... BUT we don't run a lot of play action and/or counters, so we don't fool defenses the way other balanced offenses do. It's probably based in a residual lack of faith about the O-line. Play action, counters and screens all are bad moves if the other team gets penetration.

ledzeppelin229
10-11-2004, 03:13 PM
What's everyones opinion on Ronnie Brown? He's a big back (6'1", 224) seems to have good speed/agility especially for his size, and doesn't go down without getting hit with a sledgehammer. Ive seen a few Auburn games and that guy is always running hard and making plays out of nothing.

Where would he be expected to fall in the draft at this point?

travfrancis
10-11-2004, 04:19 PM
^ 1st round

Scooter
10-11-2004, 05:44 PM
i'm not exactly sure how you can add the vikings game into dd's totals. 4 carries in the and 3(?) receptions in the first half was a huge mistake IMO. dd wasnt even in that game and should've been. the problem is that usually we gameplan around davis and make him the focal point of the offence. what's happened is defences are doing that also and nobody can be very effective like that ... which is why we've been so successful in the air. dd needs to become our #1 running back, not our entire offense (or not even on the field when they attack him directly). when that happens he'll return to ~25 carries & 100+ yards per game along with a balanced passing attack. it cant be all or none, dd has to be a PART of the offense.

V Man
10-12-2004, 09:59 AM
My problem is I don't think they use DD right. Like Vinny said he is a third down back (Only). If used right, he is quite useful. Example the draw play in OT, he went for about 15 (but was called back for a suspect holding call).

It seems at times he is too enovled in the offense, all they do is dump the ball to him. Is that him, Carr, or the coaches I don't know, but it really seems to slow down the offense, (just like Fiddy's stats show).

And I also agree with several other of you that we could be looking at a feature back with the first round pick next year. :twocents:

TexansTrueFan
10-12-2004, 11:04 AM
Well even though D.D hasnt shown what we expected so far this season i still "think" he can be our every down back. I just dont think the zone blocking scheme is working for our RB's. i dont see near as many holes opening up on the O-Line as last year. Its fine to use D.D as a RUNNING BACK but when he become the leading reciever on our team than we got problems. I dont see us drafting a RB in the first round i see us focusing primarily on Top Defensive picks. We maybe D.D only starts getting good on weeks 6 like last years idonno: Guess we'll see.

TexanExile
10-12-2004, 08:31 PM
Our first round pick next year should probably go to one of our rather porous lines. Offense OR defense...both need some depth and planning for gathering salary cap clouds. A legitimate left tackle would be nice...but back to Davis.

Dom's got a ton of talent, but he's not showing durability. The same could be said of his backup, if his backup had any real experience at all. As soon as it was clear that Dom couldn't twist and turn against the Vikes, he should've been pulled for Wells, who gave us a decent ground game the week before. Let Dom heal 100% if need be.

We can't forget the amazing stuff he did last year, but for WHATEVER REASON (Carr's preferences or the signals from the sidelines), when DD's on the field our quarterback doesn't throw to anybody who isn't wearing a 37 on his back. That's ridiculous. At this point, I'd say keep using him, but give Wells and Hollings their opportunities to spell him and maybe even surpass him. If he's not the best RB on the team, fine, but even if he IS the best RB on the team, he can't be the whole freaking offense. :twocents:

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 08:52 PM
I'd rather use a Mid-round pick on Kay Jay Harris. Ronnie Brown will likely be a 1st - early 2nd round pick.

Fiddy
10-12-2004, 09:55 PM
Dom's got a ton of talent, but he's not showing durability.

We can't forget the amazing stuff he did last year. . .I dont know that he has ton of talent, His skill level is at that of a 3rd down back, and I do not know what amazing stuff he did last year. Davis' yards per carry was 18th best in the league last year and he struggled against teams with good run defenses. He also did not stretch defenses with long runs or cause them to lose sleep.

Mistril48
10-12-2004, 10:43 PM
Does anyone know why Tony Hollings didn't get in the game at all versus the Vikings?

Grid
10-13-2004, 12:07 AM
if we are going to draft a back.. id like us to do it in the first. Im tired of questionable RBs... give me a sure thing.. like David Carr or Andre Johnson. Preferrably someone big and very hard to tackle. Ronnie Brown sounds nice.

If there is one thing about this front office that i like its that every pick we make in the first round has been solid. We havent made any bad decisions.. not yet anyway.

SESupergenius
10-13-2004, 12:21 AM
It's unreal how we can be 3rd and 1 and not pick up 1st down with a run. Is that DD or the offensive line? Car will also put up horrible numbers if the line is playing well, we've seen that already. We seem to be more effective in 3 wr sets than 2 TE ones. I'd love to see us start a game like we finished against Minnesota, then maybe we can get a lead......and then run out the clock with nothing but conversative plays.....and oh.....oh, that was last year against the Jets. Maybe iI'll just keep quiet and see what surprises the coaches have this week.

Carr Bombed
10-13-2004, 12:31 AM
I see us using our 2 third round picks to trade up in the draft and grabbing a 1st round caliber rb that hopefully slips down a little bit, if none of our backs step up this year and grabs the job. Another thing though is DD could be going through the sophmore slump like many players do so the team might be patient with him and see how the whole situation pans out. We have so many needs on this team though. I swear I was really excited about our lines at the begining of this season, but I have been greatly disapointed. The season is still young however so hopefully they can turn this around, If the don't Charlie is going to be a busy man. BTW does anybody know what round Chris Brown was taken in because that guy is a stud and nobody in Tennesse even remebers Eddie.

wags
10-13-2004, 12:43 AM
BTW does anybody know what round Chris Brown was taken in because that guy is a stud and nobody in Tennesse even remebers Eddie.

The end of the third round. The three that went before him are McGahee, Johnson, and Musa Smith. Hmmmm... Maybe we don't need to spend a first or second on a RB. :hmmm: In 2002 the only RB's drafted in the first round were William Green and T.J. Duckett.

Carr Bombed
10-13-2004, 01:03 AM
The way this coaching staff uses their rbs we need to have a big workhorse type back with good speed that can handle the load, because DD is just to small and hasn't proven that he can take the beating of a whole season of carries, hes already missed 2 games this season.

phan1
10-13-2004, 02:17 AM
I agree with the general consensus that DD is a RUNNING BACK, not a reciever. We are not the Chargers, our runningback does not have to make up 50% of our offense. Let DD run the ball, let Carr throw to his recievers. No more of these quick dump offs to DD. If anything, have Miller as Carr's "blanket" rather than DD out of the backfield.

But DD is still our back guys. He's the best RB we have and we need him. I didn't see the Vickings game (had to listen through the radio), but why couldn't we run the ball? I'm assuming our O-line couldn't create holes to run through (like at Arrowhead). I've seen DD throughout and it's hard to believe that he's missed a step this season. He is NOT an Anthony Thomas.

phan1
10-13-2004, 02:21 AM
It's unreal how we can be 3rd and 1 and not pick up 1st down with a run. Is that DD or the offensive line? Car will also put up horrible numbers if the line is playing well, we've seen that already. We seem to be more effective in 3 wr sets than 2 TE ones. I'd love to see us start a game like we finished against Minnesota, then maybe we can get a lead......and then run out the clock with nothing but conversative plays.....and oh.....oh, that was last year against the Jets. Maybe iI'll just keep quiet and see what surprises the coaches have this week.

He didn't get sacked in the Oakland game and put up some nice numbers. I can't believe that Carr plays better when the O-line is playing crappy.

JDizzle
10-13-2004, 08:25 AM
Darren Sproles. That little bugger can run!

BornOrange
10-14-2004, 07:50 PM
Darren Sproles. That little bugger can run!
Sproles can run every other game, but on the odd (or is it even?) weeks he runs worse than syrup on a winter day in Minnesota.

Rosusu
10-14-2004, 08:01 PM
I dont think we should put down dom too much just after a few games. He has had some injuries this season and once he gets fully recovered I think he will be back to his normal stuff. Remember last season when everyone was saying how we got the back of the future? Let him get to 100% and if he is still not doing that well then we can have some comments.

Low Life
10-14-2004, 08:14 PM
i could be wrong and usually am but here's my forecast for this sunday. :yap
i think they will once again run domanick to start it out (first quarter) and then use a bunch of slant passes (gaffney & armstrong) and short tight end plays to open up the run late in the first half. then they will come out firing deep in the third quarter only to let domanick run in the fourth since we'll have the lead by a tremendous margin and we'll of course want to run out the clock. i say that domanick has no more than 3 receptions but reaches the century marker.

i can't tell if this is laughable or probable. sorry. :hmmm:

aj.
10-14-2004, 08:25 PM
Sproles has turned into a fumbling machine.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-14-2004, 08:47 PM
Kay Jay Harris is the answer

wags
10-14-2004, 08:58 PM
Kay Jay Harris is the answer

Last year Harris backed up Quincy Wilson at WV. Wilson was drafted by the Falcons in the seventh round, and is currently on the practice squad. I know Harris is a good college back, but he could'nt beat out a guy who's on the Falcons practice squad. Plus he has had some nagging injury lately.

Fiddy
10-14-2004, 09:10 PM
I dont think we should put down dom too much just after a few games. He has had some injuries this season and once he gets fully recovered I think he will be back to his normal stuff. Remember last season when everyone was saying how we got the back of the future? Let him get to 100% and if he is still not doing that well then we can have some comments.I never said Davis was a franchise back.

The same thing happened last year (read the stats): http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=909

infantrycak
10-14-2004, 10:53 PM
The problem with the DD haters is the same thing with the Clinton Portis lovers--oversimplification. DD and Portis do well with good blocking. Look at the games that DD did well in and the OL was producing something--the one constant for DD is he will probably get 1-2 yards after what most RB's would get on 2nd effort. In the games that DD has done poorly in it is obvious there are no running lanes. Portis did great for 2 years in Denver averaging 5.5 ypc. Now, take out the first run of the season this year and he is under 3 ypc. IMO both backs will make the most out of what they are given (Portis more on breakaway runs and DD more on yards after contact but that makes the results even more stark) but you have to give them something to work with.

So if the blocking explains DD & Portis' running this year, the only DD issue is the dump-down passes. REAL SIMPLE FOLKS--he doesn't call those so they don't justify making him a 3rd down only back, calling for Wells, etc.--the check-offs are 1000% the responsibility of Palmer/Carr. DD releases and goes to the area designated and then catches the ball if thrown to him--and very ably since he averages over 10 ypc on them. So, JMO but their are fair criticsms of not getting good progressions from Palmer/Carr, but they shouldn't be laid at DD's feet.

One last thought, someone want to conjecture what DD would have had yardage wise behind Denver's OL last year, or KC's? Care to conjecture on what Portis or Holmes would have had behind ours? Folks have a real tendency to say he is no Portis or Holmes--I agree, I say he is a DD and they aren't him. Evidently Portis isn't himself in DC.

Team sport--that should sum it up.

Mistril48
10-14-2004, 11:32 PM
... IMO both backs will make the most out of what they are given (Portis more on breakaway runs and DD more on yards after contact but that makes the results even more stark) but you have to give them something to work with...I agree with your post, but can't leave any comparison of Portis and Davis without commenting on the attitude of the two. I feel that Davis is a team player and will continue to work hard to improve and to help the team. Portis' attitude makes me nervous.

infantrycak
10-14-2004, 11:45 PM
I agree with your post, but can't leave any comparison of Portis and Davis without commenting on the attitude of the two. I feel that Davis is a team player and will continue to work hard to improve and to help the team. Portis' attitude makes me nervous.

There is a huge difference IMO between Portis/TO who are motivated to be recognized as the great players they think they already are (scream at coaches, give interviews blaming the obvious play-calling, etc.) and DD/AJ who quietly show dedication to being the best than can and helping their team.

Anybody want to give an over/under on the who yells at a coach on the sideline first DD vs. Portis or TO vs. AJ?

jr0ck
10-15-2004, 12:42 AM
thank you infantry for being pateint enough to post what ive been thinking since the DD hating began after his less than expected start of season. just letting you know your not alone :twocents:

GI-Dawgs
10-15-2004, 10:40 AM
Davis is probable running a bit tenative right now because of the early fumbles. He should get past that. Plus he wasn't quite 100% last week. Davis should be a compliment to this offense and not the focal point. With his receiving skills he adds more to the O than Wells.

Portis looks overated at this point. Take a way his first run of the year, 64 yd TD, and he hasn't done anything as stated in an early post. This zone blocking scheme being used by Houston will make average backs good and good backs great and if ya have a great back you can see 2,000 yards rushing in this system.

GA_Man
10-15-2004, 01:00 PM
Was hollings hurt against the vikings, if not, why didn't he play?

Fiddy
10-17-2004, 11:57 PM
Updated record:
0-3-1 when Davis plays a big role
4-0-0 when Davis plays a small or no role