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View Full Version : Zone Coverage or Man Coverage??


thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 12:14 AM
Take a look, tell me what you think.. it's only a few frames, so you may not be able to tell.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/PDVD_001.jpg


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/PDVD_000.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/PDVD_003.jpg

Zippy
01-06-2007, 12:41 AM
Frame 1 - Man
Frame 2 - Man, except for the one receiver streaking by the 25.
Frame 3 - Oops!

The Pencil Neck
01-06-2007, 02:44 AM
Up until the third frame, it's obviously man. But that third frame is a really pretty triangle... and that looks zonish to me.

Did you do some photoshop work, you bastid?

aj.
01-06-2007, 08:20 AM
At first glance I thought that was K2 making the catch - in which case it appeared to be a standard cover two man with a 59 following the TE deep - but this is the only play in the gamebook that has the Browns at their own 22:

1-10-CLV 22 (11:58) 9-C.Frye pass short left to 17-B.Edwards to CLV 35 for 13 yards (56-M.Greenwood).

jdog
01-06-2007, 09:08 AM
Frame 2:

It looks like Orr is taking the running back. Probably zone.

However, I thought Orr was weak side linebacker, and it looks like the tight end is on his side.

I am new to this x's and o's stuff, and the picture "ain't" too clear.

Corners might be man on the receivers.

I'm guessing the four guys going for the quarter back are all line men.

I think that's Greenwood in the center right of the picture. He seems to be in zone or spy mode.

I can't see Ryans at this point which makes me think he and Orr might be in some kind of high/low zone coverage.

Now, I think it's the tight end running straight down the field just above Greenwood. No one is around him in the picture which makes me think Greenwood is spying and Ryans and Orr are in some kind of high/low zone coverage.

Frame 3:

I think it's the tight end making the catch. He has split the high/low zone coverage. Greenwood saw the quarterback pass and ran to the target. Ryans, I think it's Ryans, is coming up to the target. Orr is dropping the running back and moving to the target.

Now, why would you not expect someone to be at the first down marker?

t_flare
01-06-2007, 09:10 AM
i would play zone too if I have faggins brown and earl as my secondary

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 10:21 AM
Up until the third frame, it's obviously man. But that third frame is a really pretty triangle... and that looks zonish to me.

Did you do some photoshop work, you bastid?

no photoshop'n.... the ball is thrown between the second and third frame.... the third frame is the first clear picture I could get.

But on the replay, I've got this.....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/PDVD_004.jpg


http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/PDVD_006.jpg

Watching the replay, to me, it looks like man coverage. Orr the SAM covers the RB out of the back field..... Demeco the middle linebacker follows Winslow..... I don't understand what Greenwood is up to... the corners are maned up on the recievers(Braylon Edwards(17) is on top covered by Dunta(look at the socks).....

After going a few yards, Dunta is way ahead of Braylon..... I don't know if he is looking at Frye's eyes(who reminds me of David Carr(minus the arm) in 2002)..... or just notices that there is no safety over Winslow II(I don't know if there is or not, just can't think of a reason for Dunta to leave his man) and stays on top of Winslow to prevent the big play...... it may have very well been designed this way, in which case I would have thought Greenwood or (most likely) Demeco should have stoped short to cover the underneath route.



At first I thought that was K2 making the catch - in which case it appeared to be a standard cover two man with a 59 following the TE deep - but this is the only play in the gamebook that resembles the pictures:

1-10-CLV 22 (11:58) 9-C.Frye pass short left to 17-B.Edwards to CLV 35 for 13 yards (56-M.Greenwood).

That's it....



i would play zone too if I have faggins brown and earl as my secondary

one of the reasons I decided to highlight this play here, is because I think too many times people look at who makes the tackle, or who is in the frame to decide who screwed up. I'm not saying this is the case with you here.

In this particular case, the guy who screwed up(Imho) is not even in the frame.. even after the catch is made, he doesn't come in to assist with a tackle, or congratulate the guy who did make the tackle.

Vinny
01-06-2007, 10:24 AM
could be a combo coverage. You can play a cover2 with man or zone....you can also man the outside/deep and zone underneath or vice versa...you can't tell much with still frames.

cadahnic
01-06-2007, 10:25 AM
to help you guys out it is zonedog cover 3. That is the play. Hard to tell when you use the TV broadcast, but that is the defensive call. The way you can tell is that the OLB goes with the underneath route

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 10:33 AM
Frame 2:

It looks like Orr is taking the running back. Probably zone.

The way that Orr followed the RB would suggest man..... on zone coverage, Orr would fall back or drift out to a spot....

The tightend also releases inside of Orr... it's hard to see in the frames(I was trying to get clear pictures) but Demeco (the LB behind Orr) picks up the TE... another indication that it is man...



I think that's Greenwood in the center right of the picture. He seems to be in zone or spy mode.

I can't see Ryans at this point which makes me think he and Orr might be in some kind of high/low zone coverage.

Ryans is backpedalling to stay in front of Winslow...... Kellen is way too fast though, and ends up beating him on top.....



Frame 3:

I think it's the tight end making the catch. He has split the high/low zone coverage. Greenwood saw the quarterback pass and ran to the target. Ryans, I think it's Ryans, is coming up to the target. Orr is dropping the running back and moving to the target.

It's the WR making the catch, but I can see why you'd think it was the TE... & I can see this, if this were a zone coverage.

Now, why would you not expect someone to be at the first down marker?

I know......

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 10:34 AM
to help you guys out it is zonedog cover 3. That is the play. Hard to tell when you use the TV broadcast, but that is the defensive call. The way you can tell is that the OLB goes with the underneath route

Please explain......... zone dog cover three.....

Vinny
01-06-2007, 10:38 AM
as far as the terms go...zone is not man...a dog is a blitz...a zone dog is a zone blitz....and the cover3 is the Tampa2....which is really a three deep zone in the secondary.

cadahnic
01-06-2007, 10:45 AM
Depending on how they utilize their zone dogs it can go a couple of different ways. Essentially it is like Vinny is saying Back half is in a zone with couple of guys in a man. ZoneDog describes what the LBs and CBs will do depending on the underneath routes. Cover 3 means that the Corners again depending on the ZoneDog will cover deep with a deep middle backer.

In this case Drob had the deep zone, Orr had man on the underneath, Greenwood and Ryans would have been in zone also. Likely with Ryans deep third and Greenwood middle. One safety should be deep on Faggins side and one should have come up in sort of a robber position.

Vinny in some cases like in the TAMPA 2 a dog would mean man coverage underneath unless no one comes out then blitz. Or a delayed blitz with read, but you likely know that already so this is more for everyone else than for you...

I hope that helps. If you need me to get overly technical and explain the nuances and reads I can do that also.

jdog
01-06-2007, 10:47 AM
as far as the terms go...zone is not man...a dog is a blitz...a zone dog is a zone blitz....and the cover3 is the Tampa2....which is really a three deep zone in the secondary.

If this is true, then where is the blitz? We have the front four pass rushing.

I do not know much about football yet, but I thought that a blitz was when someone pass rushes in addition to the front four.

I can see the three deep zone maybe if Ryans, Brown, and Earl are playing the three deep.

It's hard to tell any of this from stills, but I like learning from game photos.

jdog
01-06-2007, 10:49 AM
In this particular case, the guy who screwed up(Imho) is not even in the frame.. even after the catch is made, he doesn't come in to assist with a tackle, or congratulate the guy who did make the tackle.

Do you think Dunta screwed up? I would think it was Dunta since his man stopped at the first down marker and caught the ball while Dunta continued on down the field and did not appear to return to assist with the tackle.

jdog
01-06-2007, 10:51 AM
Vinny in some cases like in the TAMPA 2 a dog would mean man coverage underneath unless no one comes out then blitz. Or a delayed blitz with read, but you likely know that already so this is more for everyone else than for you...

This explains the lack of a blitz. The RB came out; therefore, Orr covered him instead of blitzing.


I hope that helps. If you need me to get overly technical and explain the nuances and reads I can do that also.

Thanks for the knowledge.

jdog
01-06-2007, 10:53 AM
In this case Drob had the deep zone, Orr had man on the underneath, Greenwood and Ryans would have been in zone also. Likely with Ryans deep third and Greenwood middle. One safety should be deep on Faggins side and one should have come up in sort of a robber position.
So Dunta did not screw up. It sounds like the Browns read our defense VERY well.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 11:16 AM
Do you think Dunta screwed up? I would think it was Dunta since his man stopped at the first down marker and caught the ball while Dunta continued on down the field and did not appear to return to assist with the tackle.

I did think it was Dunta... but with the explanations from Vinny & Cadehinc... I have to take that back..... if he was in a deep zone, he did what he was supposed to do, and basically took KW II out of the play.... so good job Dunta.

then I would have to think Demeco screwed up, he was not deep on zone coverage, since the replays show him trailing KW II..... he may have been the underneath zone, who paid too much attention to the Browns' leading receiver.

But with Greenwood doing basically nothing.... could he have supposed to blitz, or provide underneath coverage for the other side, but ran with Demeco because of the QBs eyes??

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 11:19 AM
So Dunta did not screw up. It sounds like the Browns read our defense VERY well.

I don't know about them reading our defense well. they were expecting man coverage.... that inside hook by Braylon Edwards would have put the smaller Dunta on his back with no way to defend the pass... a quick juke, and Braylon could of been off to the races.

Also had Dunta stayed with Braylon, Frye would have thrown it over the top to KW II for a bigger gain.

AndreRulz
01-06-2007, 11:20 AM
they should run a lot of cover 2- man under.
its the best coverage on madden.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 11:45 AM
they should run a lot of cover 2- man under.
its the best coverage on madden.

I always play a 3-4 man tough, or an all out blitz out of a 3-4 dime package.

aj.
01-06-2007, 12:02 PM
Pretty obvious from those last two frames that Dunta is releasing Braylon to the inside zone coverage, while he appears to be getting ready to pick up the other receiver coming across the 35.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 01:28 PM
Pretty obvious from those last two frames that Dunta is releasing Braylon to the inside zone coverage, while he appears to be getting ready to pick up the other receiver coming across the 35.

Except we don't see the inside zone coverage, unless it is Demeco who is trailing KW in what appears to be tight man..... or Marlon Greenwood from the other side of the field. maybe that's why he is trailing Demeco??

aj.
01-06-2007, 02:02 PM
Looks to me like DeMeco has the inside zone at the point where Braylon cuts it off. Like someone said, it's hard to tell by piecing together stills. It's a bit easier for me to toggle the DVR. And I didn't record this one for some reason.

coachdent
01-07-2007, 01:07 PM
This is zone all the way.
4-3 Strong, Cover 4

The presnap read is a cover 2 shell. This shell gives the offense the impression that the defense is in a Cover 2 look, so it is inviting the offense to run corner routes or fades to the outside.

Dunta's technique is the tipoff to Cover 4 because he "bails" immediately. He has the deep fourth of the field. The safeties have their fourths and the other corner has the bottom fourth. The tight end is running a corner and if the quarterback incorrectly thinks it is cover 2, he throws the corner route to the tight end right to Robinson and it is an easy pick.

Out of the strong set, the Sam linebacker is up on the line of scrimmage as an immediate run supporter. When he reads pass, he is responsible for strongside flat and runs with the fullback into the flat.

The linebacker to the top of the screen is the middle linebacker Ryans. He is responsible for hook curl and this is his zone. He drops too deep in trying to run with the tight end. He should have been all over that route.

Demeco needed to understand that he had help over the top and didn't need to get so much depth there, especially on 1st & 10.

Greenwood is responsible for the backside flat to curl/hook zone. Because his back doesn't come out and he reads the ball, he gets to the ball. He didn't do anything wrong and is just in the shot because he is pursuing to the ball.

The Pencil Neck
01-07-2007, 01:15 PM
I love threads like this. I didn't play football after breaking my arm playing football in grade school. I had a cyst in the bone of my upper arm and the doctor said I'd have to have surgery if I broke it again before I was 17. So... although I've always loved football, I never played after that.

When I looked at the first pictures, I thought it was man simply because the corners were so close to the line of scrimmage. I've never known how to read cover 2 or anything like that.

Thanks for the information AND thanks for this thread.

Fico
01-07-2007, 01:43 PM
Looks to be quarters coverage just with the corners pressing off the snap. Outside backers are responsible for the fla,moving through the curl and the mike backer has the short hole which is exactly whats being shown.

ArlingtonTexan
01-07-2007, 02:00 PM
:includeme:

cadahnic
01-07-2007, 03:45 PM
Bottom line this play is obviously a zone coverage and you can see the basic type of zone it is but outside of the players and coaching staff no one knows what exactly every players' responsibilites are supposed to be and who screwed up, if anyone, so everyone should stop making so many assumptions/declarations about what was supposed to happen because no one here knows.

coachdent
01-07-2007, 04:57 PM
Bottom line this play is obviously a zone coverage and you can see the basic type of zone it is but outside of the players and coaching staff no one knows what exactly every players' responsibilites are supposed to be and who screwed up, if anyone, so everyone should stop making so many assumptions/declarations about what was supposed to happen because no one here knows.

Not sure what you are getting at. Normally, if this were another part of the board with it is a plethora of "Carrsucks" posts or the "how about we trade Carr for a 1st round pick" posts, I think you might have something. But most of the posts on this particular thread have had substance behind them.

Personally, as a coach, I can recognize defensive coverages and offensive schemes. It is my job you know? So forgive me if I correct you that someone who knows what they are talking about can indeed look at a film or a picture and give you an idea of what happened on the play.

cadahnic
01-07-2007, 05:08 PM
Not sure what you are getting at. Normally, if this were another part of the board with it is a plethora of "Carrsucks" posts or the "how about we trade Carr for a 1st round pick" posts, I think you might have something. But most of the posts on this particular thread have had substance behind them.

Personally, as a coach, I can recognize defensive coverages and offensive schemes. It is my job you know? So forgive me if I correct you that someone who knows what they are talking about can indeed look at a film or a picture and give you an idea of what happened on the play.

I'm not saying you can't see what basically is going on, I'm just saying a bunch of people are on here saying such and such player was supposed to be in this zone or this player messed up and busted the play. All I'm saying is that no one here knows for sure what anyone on the field was supposed to be doing on that play. You can read the basic coverage etc. but you don't know for sure what exact zone each player is supposed to be in, that was my point. People shouldn't be pointing fingers at players etc. unless they are in the team meetings and know for sure how the play was drawn up and what was supposed to happen, all we know is what actually happened, we don't know what was supposed to happen.

thunderkyss
01-07-2007, 06:06 PM
I'm not saying you can't see what basically is going on, I'm just saying a bunch of people are on here saying such and such player was supposed to be in this zone or this player messed up and busted the play. All I'm saying is that no one here knows for sure what anyone on the field was supposed to be doing on that play. You can read the basic coverage etc. but you don't know for sure what exact zone each player is supposed to be in, that was my point. People shouldn't be pointing fingers at players etc. unless they are in the team meetings and know for sure how the play was drawn up and what was supposed to happen, all we know is what actually happened, we don't know what was supposed to happen.

I hear what you are saying...... but, I disagree....

First, it's nice to talk about someone other than David screwing up.

Secondly, when our coaches & players go over game film, they are doing just like we are. Making assumptions based on what we know about the game. some of us know more, some of us want to know more, and identifying problems(who screwed up) is one way to help us all get there.

Thirdly, everybody screws up from time to time.... even if we are wrong on this one, hopefully we can identify trends, and properly identify players who aren't playing up to their potential. For instance, we all dog on Greenwood.... who has really put together a solid season. So while OLB may still be on our list of needs, it is a lot lower than what we thought a year ago..... this kind of info is helpful for all the draft nuts we have on this board.

cadahnic
01-07-2007, 07:11 PM
I hear what you are saying...... but, I disagree....

First, it's nice to talk about someone other than David screwing up.

Secondly, when our coaches & players go over game film, they are doing just like we are. Making assumptions based on what we know about the game. some of us know more, some of us want to know more, and identifying problems(who screwed up) is one way to help us all get there.

Thirdly, everybody screws up from time to time.... even if we are wrong on this one, hopefully we can identify trends, and properly identify players who aren't playing up to their potential. For instance, we all dog on Greenwood.... who has really put together a solid season. So while OLB may still be on our list of needs, it is a lot lower than what we thought a year ago..... this kind of info is helpful for all the draft nuts we have on this board.


I agree, it is nice to have a post about something other than Carr.

The chief difference is when players and coaches go over film they know exactly what play was called and exactly what everyone was supposed to be doing so they know when someone messed up. Conversely, we don't know exactly what everyone was supposed to do on a given play call, so we can't pinpoint that. I like the idea of this thread but when we get 10+ conflicting views that are all "correct" on what the play call was, what each and every player's assignment was, and who screwed up, that is taking things a bit too far, especially if it escalates to people then criticizing each other's views as things usually tend to do. I do like how we are trying to stimulate some intelligent thought and educate people on what we are trying to do, but realistically there's only so much that any of us know, and I was trying to point out that it seemed as though these assumptions were being taken way too far.

Agreed, although seeing 3 still shots from a single play is hard to draw complete conclusions on a player's play, and frequently it seems as though generalizations are made from small samples like this that lead to certain players sucking or playing great, I was just trying to keep things in perspective.

Good thread though, I like the idea, just didn't like how everyone was talking as if they were the head coach and knew exactly what was going on and "this is how this scheme is meant to be run" when we aren't the ones designing the scheme vs. offering up their opinion of what they think was happening on a particular play. Again, good idea and keep it up, if possible could you post the entire video clip rather than just a few still shots? It would make it a little easier to properly analyze, but I don't know the logistics of posting a video and have been unsuccessful in previous attempts to do so.

thunderkyss
01-07-2007, 07:30 PM
I agree, it is nice to have a post about something other than Carr.

The chief difference is when players and coaches go over film they know exactly what play was called and exactly what everyone was supposed to be doing so they know when someone messed up.

I meant when they are looking at the other teams game film..... trying to identify weaknesses..... making assumptions.

thunderkyss
01-07-2007, 07:32 PM
Again, good idea and keep it up, if possible could you post the entire video clip rather than just a few still shots? It would make it a little easier to properly analyze, but I don't know the logistics of posting a video and have been unsuccessful in previous attempts to do so.

that's a good idea.. I recorded this on my DVD-R, then copied the video files to my computer. If I knew how to convert the files to mpeg or avi or whatever it is for video, I'd give it a shot.

jdog
01-07-2007, 11:24 PM
I agree, it is nice to have a post about something other than Carr.

The chief difference is when players and coaches go over film they know exactly what play was called and exactly what everyone was supposed to be doing so they know when someone messed up. Conversely, we don't know exactly what everyone was supposed to do on a given play call, so we can't pinpoint that. I like the idea of this thread but when we get 10+ conflicting views that are all "correct" on what the play call was, what each and every player's assignment was, and who screwed up, that is taking things a bit too far, especially if it escalates to people then criticizing each other's views as things usually tend to do. I do like how we are trying to stimulate some intelligent thought and educate people on what we are trying to do, but realistically there's only so much that any of us know, and I was trying to point out that it seemed as though these assumptions were being taken way too far.

Agreed, although seeing 3 still shots from a single play is hard to draw complete conclusions on a player's play, and frequently it seems as though generalizations are made from small samples like this that lead to certain players sucking or playing great, I was just trying to keep things in perspective.

Good thread though, I like the idea, just didn't like how everyone was talking as if they were the head coach and knew exactly what was going on and "this is how this scheme is meant to be run" when we aren't the ones designing the scheme vs. offering up their opinion of what they think was happening on a particular play. Again, good idea and keep it up, if possible could you post the entire video clip rather than just a few still shots? It would make it a little easier to properly analyze, but I don't know the logistics of posting a video and have been unsuccessful in previous attempts to do so.

Yes, it is important for all of us to be aware of our level of knowledge and to realize the likelihood of our assumptions being incorrect.

However, few of us are experts, and if we limit all of our posts to facts, then we would be wikipedia. I like a little fun with my education.

I agree that we should avoid arguing with one another in these threads because it detracts from the football.

So now, I will shut up.