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thunderkyss
01-05-2007, 11:14 PM
this is a busted run play.... the blocking got all screwed up, and the QB RB exchange got muffed.

I watched this play a couple of times trying to figure out who should do what, and who screwed up. Of course you & I may never know, but...... if this were your team, how would you have told them to block in this situation??

If you don't remember the play, it was a FB Lead to the left.... looks to me like they were aiming between the Guard & the Center(A Gap??).....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble1.jpg

Never mind the fumble, just the blocking....... how would you like for these guys to block??

Buckle
01-06-2007, 08:19 AM
Well you could do it a couple of ways. I would probably have the TE seal the end man out of the play. Have the LT block the DE with the LG chipping and going or staying depending on the pressure of the DE and his path taken. Center and RG take the NT with the RG chipping and releasing as well. RT I would have seal the DE on the away side. You could also pull the RG and use him as an extra lead blocker.

jdog
01-06-2007, 08:22 AM
Tight end block the right outside linebacker.

Left tackle block the right end.

Left guard block the right inside line backer.

Center block the nose tackle.

Right guard block the left inside line backer.

Right tackle block the left end.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 09:52 AM
You could also pull the RG and use him as an extra lead blocker.

Good Idea....... but I don't know if it's a problem with Weary's athletecism, but we never pull the RG.... actually we haven't pulled our guards until Weigart got hurt, and started to pull Chester to the right side.



Tight end block the right outside linebacker.

Left tackle block the right end.

Left guard block the right inside line backer.

Center block the nose tackle.

Right guard block the left inside line backer.

Right tackle block the left end.

Sounds simple enough.....

Hulk75
01-06-2007, 09:59 AM
Tooooo much time on your hands.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 10:02 AM
Tooooo much time on your hands.

hey, if you'd rather we talk about the QB position some more, we can do that. If you'd like to talk about some other aspect of football... well this is just one outlet.

DenverBorn
01-06-2007, 10:07 AM
Tooooo much time on your hands.

I thought you had done your "last post". Oh, was that for 2006? is that what you meant?

DocBar
01-06-2007, 10:18 AM
Good Idea....... but I don't know if it's a problem with Weary's athletecism, but we never pull the RG.... actually we haven't pulled our guards until Weigart got hurt, and started to pull Chester to the right side.



Sounds simple enough.....

Pulling a guard looks pretty good.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 11:00 AM
this is how we did it.......

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble2.jpg

Zone Blocking.... everyone but the Center's first step was to the right....

look at how it messes up the block on the right DE(Salaam gives up his inside shoulder), Pitts is not squared up on the ILB.

IMHO the ZBS thing would be fine, if Salaam would have ignored the DE over him, and took out the OLB... & Pitts attack the DE.... this would give our guys the advantage since the defensive players would be working against their leverage, which is straight ahead of their squared sholders.... to my understanding, that is the strenght of the ZBS, allowing physically weeker players to dominate stronger players.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble3.jpg

here, Salaam has been exposed... his right arm is extended across the front of the DE(holding), he's already lost this battle. Salaam chips the ILB... that's okay, if he would continue & block the safety coming into the play. McKinney should have left his block on the NT by now...... Weary should have an advantage on the NT. McKinney should move up to the next level and put the other ILB on his ass....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble4.jpg

Bruenner is doing a fine job on the OLB..... Salaam is still Holding the DE.... Pitts stops playing.. figures there is nothing else for him to do, as he watches the ILB he chipped get past him...... McKinney appears to be heading for the second level(good job) & Weary has the NT right were he wants him.. shoulders are not pointed at the line, and Weary has the ability to push where the NT has no leverage at all.

Leach doesn't get a clean shot on the ILB because of the chip Pitts put on him.. but he's still out of the play... had Taylor handled the ball, this would have been a solid run..

Had Pitts kept playing, this would have been a big run....

Had the play continued, this play would have come back because of the hold by Salaam......

This play is indicative(I think) of where we are with ZBS..... close, but not there.

Salaam, was left out to dry by Pitts..... Pitts responsibility should have been to hit the DE on his weakside, squaring him up to Salaam, so that Salaam wouldn't be exposed, then release, and slide up to the second level.

Pitts is also thinking man blocking... the ILB is not his concern..... he should take out the DE... the ILB would have been handled better.... cleanly by Leach. McKinney would have progressed to the second level...... should have taken out the safety, and Winston should have blindsided the second ILB.... Leaving a sweet seam for Taylor to bust through.

Hulk75
01-06-2007, 11:03 AM
I thought you had done your "last post". Oh, was that for 2006? is that what you meant?

Yea thats what it was............:rollbaby: :swing:

jdog
01-06-2007, 11:10 AM
I disagree a little. Salaam should have squared up on the DE but otherwise it's good.

The main mishap here in my opinion is Pitts going to help on the DE.

If he goes for the ILB right off the bat, the play doesn't get blown up, and there would be a nice big hole.

The reason Pitts goes for the DE first then attempts to go to the ILB and is too late is because of this zone blocking scheme.

He should not be required to hit the DE first and then go to the next level. It makes no sense to me. Salaam is right there.

Leach would be better suited to help with either the ILB or the DE if either of them's winning against Salaam or Pitts.

Instead, our hole opens up in time for the ILB to blow up the run rather than opening up in time for the FB to lead block for the HB.

Yankee_In_TX
01-06-2007, 11:28 AM
Hey thunder, rep for this post :shades: Refreshing to see an intewlligent thread. Also, great for someone (me) who doesn't have a football background.

ojthecat
01-06-2007, 11:32 AM
Here is what I would do.

Get some real NFL tackles!!!

powerfuldragon
01-06-2007, 11:36 AM
we need more threads like these where we break down plays. i'm liking it.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 11:36 AM
I disagree a little. Salaam should have squared up on the DE but otherwise it's good.

true, that could've happened... But the older beat up Salaam would not be able to do that very often in a game.. he'd get tired.... if you had a JoeThomas, Charles Spencer, D'Bricshaw...... yeah, I could see that. But you're taking away the advantages of the ZBS.


The main mishap here in my opinion is Pitts going to help on the DE.

the main mishap, is that he didn't help on the DE.... this would have been a holding penalty... had we not fumbled the ball.

If he goes for the ILB right off the bat, the play doesn't get blown up, and there would be a nice big hole.

it's probably hard to tell from the still-frames, but the play didn't get blown up. had Taylor got the ball, it would have been a big gain, if not for the hold.

The reason Pitts goes for the DE first then attempts to go to the ILB and is too late is because of this zone blocking scheme.

he'd have been on time with his responsibility if he'd have gone ahead and helped double the DE.

He should not be required to hit the DE first and then go to the next level. It makes no sense to me. Salaam is right there.

Again.... with the ZBS, your advantage is that you can beat the other guy, wether it's Cameron Wimbley, Julius Peppers, Marcus Spears, Jason Taylor, Mike Rutgers....... whoever. You can try to find the one guy who can beat any of them week in & week out if you like, but it's going to cost you alot more than Ephraim Salaam.

Leach would be better suited to help with either the ILB or the DE if either of them's winning against Salaam or Pitts.

He'd be too late to help Salaam.... the holding has already occured. In this case, since that's "just" Cameron Wimbley.... if Salaam would have squared up on him, you're probably right.

But I don't have a problem with letting the ILB come in to be pulverized by Vonta Leech.

Instead, our hole opens up in time for the ILB to blow up the run rather than opening up in time for the FB to lead block for the HB.

?? I agree, there are a hundred ways to skin this cat... had Pitts squared up and knocked the ILB on his ass(which he should be able to do with the size/strenght advantage he should have), he could have continued into the secondary and taken out that safety as well, leaving the corner that's out there somewhere for VL to decimate....

But my goal here was not to debate ZBS vs Man Blocking.... but to show some weaknesses in our ZBS(Pitts) & some strengths.... McKinney at center(neither Flanagan of Hogdon could move people the way McKinney does) & Winston(Provide enough resistance to slow down the other DE, and make it into the second level, ready to pounce).

Had Pitts gone on to hit the DE, that resulting Vonta Leech hit on that ILB would have been top 5 material for jacked up.

jdog
01-06-2007, 11:50 AM
I don't know how it looks in real time, but in the frame it looks like the ILB gets through and Vonta stops in his tracks to put a hit on him which causes Taylor to go "Oh, snap" and mess up the hand off.

jdog
01-06-2007, 11:58 AM
As far as Salaam man on the RDE, you are right. I forget that a key element in the game is the superiority of some players over others.

The holding call would have ruined any alternative success.

So Pitts should have doubled the RDE with Salaam.

Leach should have blocked the ILB.

Taylor should not have fumbled the hand off.

YoungTexanFan
01-06-2007, 01:38 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble1.jpg




Pitts is the one who should be blamed for this play from this frame. His head is supposed to be on a swivel. I played TE on a ZBS team and was mostly a blocker because of our bad o-line. You are supposed to be "on a rail" with your head on a swivel. The play might have worked one way or another yes, but Pitt's responsiblity in the ZBS on this play was the MLB. If someone crosses your face, you are supposed to pick him up and wash him out of the play. Bruener proves why he is in the NFL on this series. McKinny needs to shed faster and be at the next level. He is only supposed to chip the guy and turn his shoulder for Weary to have a greater advantage before he immediately heads off to the second level. OT's rarely move to the second level in a ZBS, it is mostly the interior line, and the C almost always is trying to get to the LB's. Salem's footwork is horrible. I'm surprised he didn't get knocked down by looking at his foundation. He let the defensive player get the wrong shoulder. In the ZBS, you don't NEED to wash the player out, but you can't give up ground and you have to seal the hole properly. Even if you don't push him one way, your hips need to be sealing the hole for the RB to fit through. Winston does a good job here. McKinny does his job, granted it took too long, but he did it. Pitts and Salem messed this play up.

YoungTexanFan
01-06-2007, 01:41 PM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble3.jpg



This shows Pitts missing what should have been his man. The MLB on this play wasn't Leach's responsibility according to ZBS principles. Leach should have had the SS on this play, running right through the hole to reach him. Instead, Leach had to pick up the MLB that Pitts should have had.

Scooter
01-06-2007, 02:38 PM
it deffinately looks as if pitts missed on this play, however we're running a man blocking scheme instead of a zone. that becomes apparent by pitts' first step which is towards the RDE. if we were running a zone, pitts would see that there's no man immediately infront of him and would've pushed to the second level right off of the snap which would've squared him up on the RILB or even the SS. pitts also loses points here for turning to find the man he missed instead of continuing ahead and picking up the next man. center & RG hit their assignment correctly, as did the LT, RT, and TE. tight end & right tackle blocked exellently by getting inside of their man. even though winston didnt put on the best of blocks, he pushed his man outside and away from the running play, without wasting time considering the LOLB. Salaam didnt help this play though since he went outside of the RDE on a run to his inside. salaam needs to know the intent of the run and setup inside & push out (as the TE masterfully did) ... the opposite happened and he was called for a hold as well as allowing his man to make a would be tackle. leach's first read would be pitts' RILB, followed by whichever approached next ... the cheating SS (most likeley target) or the LILB to the pic's right. leach did well to turn and pick up his first target (RILB) although i'm sure he would've preferred to hit him after the LOS.

good execution by TE, C, RG, RT, FB. poor execution by LG, LT. salaam's RDE would've made the tackle for little or no gain.

if i understand it correctly, a pure zone in this situation has flanagan throwing a cut-block, pitts & weary going immediately to the second level, and LT/RT/TE doing the same as they did.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 02:46 PM
this is how we did it.......

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble2.jpg


I've never played offense... so I'm definitely no expert. But everything I've read, and discussed with other fans, It is my understanding that this first step sets up who is whose responsibility.

I've been told(read) that in the ZBS, the first step is planned, programed. It will be the same for every man across the line to give the same look for run plays or passing plays.... the only difference, is step left, or step right.

because everybody(except McKinney) steps right, I would think that would alleviate the ILB from Chesters responsibility... he's supposed to chip the DE... he has to, because the step puts Salaam at a disadvantage.....

I was hoping to get some ZBS gurus in here(I could have picked a better title) to look at that first step from Pitts & Salaam...... I didn't think they were supposed to cross over the way they did, because that throws their leverage way off.

cadahnic
01-06-2007, 02:49 PM
Well since most of you guys dont understand blocking assignments I will explain this play also. This is actually simple and how the ZBS system works. When you look at the beginning of the play we had a good play called for the defense, obviously is was not executed properly. For those who have not watched the Broncos in the last 2 years you may have not seen this wrinkle to the system. Bruener has outside backer, Salaam has the end, Pitts is free-space(I will explain in a sec.), McKinney and Weary are to wall off the Nose, and Winston is to handle the backside end.

Pitts' responsibility is to get to the second level and take care of the MLB or SS. In this case his first job was to chip on Salaam's man to make sure the play has a chance of success. After which he would have the SS. Leach takes immediate threat which is the blitzing backer. McKinney also should be looking to peel off the nose and get the backside ILB.

So if ran to perfection is should have looked like this: Bruener has OLB, Salaam has end, Pitts has SS, Leach has blitzing backer, McKinney and Weary have nose, and Winston has backside End. This would leave Taylor with open lane and a cut back lane if needed, the only player he would really have to beat would be the non-blitzing ILB since McKinney cant peel off, the corner if unblocked, and the FS.

Some of you guys have played football and should know these assingments, it is refreshing to actually talk about football, but come on guys use your heads.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 03:23 PM
salaam needs to know the intent of the run and setup inside & push out (as the TE masterfully did) ... the opposite happened and he was called for a hold as well as allowing his man to make a would be tackle.


if i understand it correctly, a pure zone in this situation has flanagan throwing a cut-block, pitts & weary going immediately to the second level, and LT/RT/TE doing the same as they did.

Salaam wasn't called for a hold...... I'm just saying he is holding, and had this play continued(the hand-off was fumbled), he would have been called.

The cut block is a last resort the way I understand it.... if you are beat, and can't make up, you throw the cut block.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 03:28 PM
Well since most of you guys dont understand blocking assignments I will explain this play also.

Some of you guys have played football and should know these assingments, it is refreshing to actually talk about football, but come on guys use your heads.

Kinda harsh cadahinc........... especially considering your explanation is pretty close to what I said...

But since we've got you involved, what do you think about that first step by Pitts & Salaam?? were they supposed to cross their bodies with the right foot?? I was told that was a no-no.

Scooter
01-06-2007, 03:29 PM
The cut block is a last resort the way I understand it.... if you are beat, and can't make up, you throw the cut block.

that would render it useless, along with a likelyhood of receiving a 15 yard penalty ("beat" meaning your man got around, and you'd be lunging at his knees from the backside is how i understand what you're saying). a cut block is part of the scheme and thrown immediately by usually an interior lineman. it's purpose is to eliminate atleast one man in backside persuit right off the bat and allowing another lineman to move to the second level.

bayoudreamn
01-06-2007, 08:08 PM
Nice thread TK.

coachdent
01-07-2007, 10:29 AM
I've never played offense... so I'm definitely no expert. But everything I've read, and discussed with other fans, It is my understanding that this first step sets up who is whose responsibility.

I've been told(read) that in the ZBS, the first step is planned, programed. It will be the same for every man across the line to give the same look for run plays or passing plays.... the only difference, is step left, or step right.

because everybody(except McKinney) steps right, I would think that would alleviate the ILB from Chesters responsibility... he's supposed to chip the DE... he has to, because the step puts Salaam at a disadvantage.....

I was hoping to get some ZBS gurus in here(I could have picked a better title) to look at that first step from Pitts & Salaam...... I didn't think they were supposed to cross over the way they did, because that throws their leverage way off.

First, it is important in the discussion of this play to determine what the play is. The illustration of this shot...which by the way I love and want to know how to do this on my postings!.... shows that this play is OUTSIDE ZONE. There are three phases of the zone, of which, Houston primarily runs two. Middle and Outside.

What tips off outside zone? Two things primarily. 1st, Chris Taylor's shoulders are facing the aiming point of the outside hips of the tackle (Salaam). Secondly, you can see that Carr's shoulders are set to go outside as well with the mesh point of the handoff being at a place roughly were Vonta's left shoulder is, to a point about a half yard left of that.

This important in discussining the play because rules and responsibilities change accordingly.


ZONE BLOCKING
FIRST STEP - Each offensive lineman takes what is called a six inch weight adjustment step. The backs do the same. The purpose is to establish flow of the defense, yet still not determine which hole you are headed for. It times up the backs and sets the double teams accordingly.

The weight adjustment step changes depending on the technique of your "on" defender (the guy covering you). If the defender is outside you, playside, then your weight adjustment step is normal. However, if the lineman is head up to inside, you take what is called a replacement step. Salaam looks like he took a bad first step. His first step should have been to "pick it up and put it down" and his second step needed to be to the inside crotch of the DLineman. His shoulders are not square also, but we'll ge to that.

SHOULDERS - Zone blocking concepts are keyed on the Oline keeping thier shoulders square. Pitts is not doing a good job here at all. He is making a nightmare of problems merely by turning his shoulders.

When you turn your shoulders as an offensive lineman, you create run through lanes for linebackers. Once Pitts turns his shoulders, you can see the frontside linebacker immediately working downhill and pushing the hole.

Winston on the backside is executing what we call a slip block where he is making sure his man does not cross his face and rips up to the second level to the backside linebacker. In a perfect world, he would cutoff the backside linebacker who in this particular set would be the linebacker on the line of scrimmage. Since he is completely out of the play, Winston would work up to the backside safety or whatever he can get contact with.

McKinney had an inside technique on him. so his shoulders are fine.

ASSIGNMENTS -
This play illustrates the bastardization of the zone when you introduce the fullback. Without being in on the meetings of the Texans, it is difficult to point out who is wrong here to an extent. The problem is you have a zone concept with the OLine, yet a lead block element with the fullback. As such, the Texans could be saying that Vonta is responsible for the frontside linebacker...which is the way I would tend to think they do and it seems that way on this play. But it is a problem.

TE - man up and a difficult block for this play to get outside
LT - doubles with LG for the outside linebacker or primary support, which is not shown on the screen. Salaam has enormous problems here. His weight is over his feet (Zone 101 non-no), he is crossing his feet, he has reached too far outside and lastly, he is in no position for a double team. The DL easily splits this double team.
LG - doubles with tackle. Too much seperation between him and the tackle so that there is no double team***. Shoulders again are a problem.
FB - This is a non zone block. He has a lead block on the linebacker to the left scraping.
C & BSG - They are double teaming to the backside linebacker and are doing it well. McKinney's job is to make sure the DT does not penetrate and posts him up for the BSG. The guard will evenetually take over this block and McKinney will keep his shoulders in much the same spot and work up to the backside linebacker who will flow to him. He will make contact with this block roughly one step behind where the other linebacker is in the shot.
RT - Winston has a cutoff or slip block that he is doing well. Makes sure the DLineman does not cross his face. He then works up to the second level linebacker (which there is none for him because that guy is on the line of scrimmage). So eventually he would continue to work up and simply find a different colored jersey to smack.

*** This leads to a problem in the running of a zone out of two backs. Because in this set, you have essentially predetermined that you won't get outside on this run because any "hanger" on the outside to the left side of the screen is unblocked. Salaam and Pitts are responsible for that guy. Once Taylor busts it outside, he has no help with the unblocked player because there is no way Pitts nor Salaam get that guy.

What happens in the bastardization of the play is that you change Pitts' responsibility to get that scraping linebacker and the fullback leads up to the outside on the hanger. Seems like you have a great play. The problem is...it's not zone for me anymore. Zone is establishing double teams at the point of attack. If Pitts goes for the linebacker you have single blocks across the entire frontside of the play. In addition, that hanger to the left will appear right outside of Bruener's shoulder and will really negate the effectiveness of the play.


To your point Thunderkyss, both Salaam and Pitts are using poor technique on this play by crossing thier feet. Salaam's is much worse. Pitts is crossing over it seems to get to the double team he is missing and also push to the outside.

Good stuff! Love seeing the game shots. More please!

thunderkyss
01-07-2007, 12:05 PM
thanks for your breakdown Coach.... I try to defend Salaam around here, but it's disencouraging to know the two guys with the most experience in this system are the main guys screwing up.

& I say the two guys with the most experience because they have both been at their positions since the week 2..... & Bruener doesn't play the number of snaps they do.

Honoring Earl 34
01-07-2007, 12:23 PM
CoachDent here is the Texan picture capital of world http://www.texansbullpen.com/ .

baba ganoush
01-07-2007, 01:11 PM
If you don't remember the play, it was a FB Lead to the left.... looks to me like they were aiming between the Guard & the Center(A Gap??)...http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble1.jpg
Never mind the fumble, just the blocking....... how would you like for these guys to block??

Well, if you have ever played football as an ofeensive lineman, you know this is what you should do...you're not going to risk a pull by the guard, just incase the center gets blown up and you're already inside your own 20, so that should be out of the question...you also dont pull on a lead...on this lead, the play is goign inbetween the LG and C...just look at the stance...the tight end is going to gap hinge on the outsound and watch for blitzers...the LT and LG are going to TAG (tackle and guard for those who dont know its a doubleteam)to playside linebacker...and the C and RG are going to CAGE until the second or third level, whoever flows in thier way first...the RT is going to take a zone step and hook the backside DE...wiht those blocks at least at a stalemate(not getting any movement) the FB has to lead on the FS and then the RB should score a touchown because he shouldnt get touched...but oh yeah, i forgot we're the texans!

coachdent
01-07-2007, 01:40 PM
Well, if you have ever played football as an ofeensive lineman, you know this is what you should do...you're not going to risk a pull by the guard, just incase the center gets blown up and you're already inside your own 20, so that should be out of the question...you also dont pull on a lead...on this lead, the play is goign inbetween the LG and C...just look at the stance...the tight end is going to gap hinge on the outsound and watch for blitzers...the LT and LG are going to TAG (tackle and guard for those who dont know its a doubleteam)to playside linebacker...and the C and RG are going to CAGE until the second or third level, whoever flows in thier way first...the RT is going to take a zone step and hook the backside DE...wiht those blocks at least at a stalemate(not getting any movement) the FB has to lead on the FS and then the RB should score a touchown because he shouldnt get touched...but oh yeah, i forgot we're the texans!

To correct you on a couple of things -
1. The Backside Tackle Winston does not "hook" that end. He seals him. Once he is sealed, he tries to get two for one by going up to the second level. In true zone play, you do not block the last man on the of scrimmage. This man will never make the play. The outside linebacker is technically not on the line of scrimmage and doesn't matter anyway. He isn't making a frontside play either.

2. The fullback in this scheme has the frontside linebacker. A fullback never "leads" up to the FS. The LG and LT do not double team "back" to the linebacker in the screen. This is not their responsibility. If you look really closely at the alignment of the linemen, you will see that the center and the guard are right next to each other. This is because they are going to work together for the double team. If you look at Salaam and Pitts, they should be somewhat closer. Pitts is too far away. You can see that Pitts has adjusted his split to be closer to Salaam, but Salaam has not kicked his split down to help facillitate the double. Another mistake by Salaam.

If there is no outside linebacker here, then it would be Salaam and Pitts eventually doubling to the the safety. If it were true zone and true outside zone, then Pitts would pretty much be singled up with the linebacker and Vonta would then lead the way for the safety.

3. You spoke of stalemates. Stalemates are not an option in zone game. They are about creating and getting movement from the double teams. I put my 540 pounds on your 275 and we get movement. As you said correctly, we aren't doing that!


The other thing that this presnap picture gives us is IMO some very poor stances by Pitts, the RG and Winston. All of them have poor stances with their outside legs. Their back foot is almost at a 45 degree angle. What this does if you look closely, is that it turns their shoulders in their stances. They do not have a good base and aren't as strong. They also are prone to turn shoulders as they rise up. If you look at Bruener and Salaam, their stances are perfect.

ArlingtonTexan
01-07-2007, 01:55 PM
:includeme:

Love the hardcore football talk...more of this will make a better site.

Imatexanfan
01-07-2007, 02:16 PM
What are you thinking??

Well lets see here IF Russell comes out we take him end of story. On top of that IF Vick wants out of Atlanta we take him, the thing is thats rattling my brain is that those are just rumors about Vick, I just wish it was true.

Also about how bad LJ sucked yesterday against the Colts, they shut some people up yesterday and how the Cowboys are heading back to Irving and how TO is going to do this offseason, staying or leaving?!

Osso
01-07-2007, 10:36 PM
this is how we did it.......

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble2.jpg.


Seems to me the center should next slide to the left picking up the linebacker. He doesnt he never leaves the nose. The left guard wants to step to the left and double team the tackle but must switch direction back to the right since the center doesnt slide. Its to late, the backer is through and now the full back must change back to the inside, stuttering the rb behind him at the moment of hand off.......fumble.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble3.jpg


center blew the play.

Had he slid to backer and the guard able to double the tackle the fullback would have been on a DB....rb? who knows but lots of yards.

jdog
01-07-2007, 11:02 PM
Anybody know who the linebacker is by the way? He seems pretty good.

cadahnic
01-07-2007, 11:16 PM
Anybody know who the linebacker is by the way? He seems pretty good.

I think that one is Leon Williams, a 4th round pick last year out of the U.

real
01-08-2007, 08:45 AM
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble1.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble2.jpg



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble3.jpg



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a159/Thunderkyss/CTFumble4.jpg



Looks like the Texans blocked it correctly...or atleast tried to...

I'm a big footwork guy and looking at the second frame I see two things...

The LT, and LG both lost their base...Salaam's feet are crossing over, and Pitts isn't square to the LOS...

Before the snap the DE on Salaams side is shaded to his outside, so there is no reason that the DE should have been able to cross his face...Pitts should have just stuck a feeler out just to make sure the DE didn't stunt to the inside, kept his base, and picked up the MLB...

At first I was thinking that Pitts should have stuck his feeler out towards the nose gaurd because he'd be more likely to slant play side and disrupt the play....but.....In ZBS you want everyone to initially step in the same direction, and also had the Nose tackle crossed the centers face, him and the backside gaurd would have just kept pushing him and washed him past the hole and the running back would have just cut back...

Good thread TK....

Texan_Bill
01-08-2007, 09:12 AM
hey, if you'd rather we talk about the QB position some more, we can do that. If you'd like to talk about some other aspect of football... well this is just one outlet.

Good Point!!! Roll on!

Thanks for this thread, its a great change of pace!!

coachdent
01-08-2007, 09:54 AM
One other thing to point out is that this play illustrates one of the reasons why I don't like two back zone. As thunderkyss pointed out, this play was a fumble. I don't remember the play, but if you look at Vonta's path, he adjusts his path to block the linebacker. When he does, this alters the path of the other back and forces the quarterback to bend his path as well. Often, the fullback will run into the quarterback. Other times, the QB in an effort to get around the FB, must round his handoff path and never gets the ball in the tailback's pocket.

This all speeds up the zone reads. Not good.

vtech9
01-08-2007, 11:47 PM
One other thing to point out is that this play illustrates one of the reasons why I don't like two back zone. As thunderkyss pointed out, this play was a fumble. I don't remember the play, but if you look at Vonta's path, he adjusts his path to block the linebacker. When he does, this alters the path of the other back and forces the quarterback to bend his path as well. Often, the fullback will run into the quarterback. Other times, the QB in an effort to get around the FB, must round his handoff path and never gets the ball in the tailback's pocket.

This all speeds up the zone reads. Not good.

I do remember the play, and verified it from replays, and Carr didn't put the ball where it was supposed to be. As a RB, you shouldn't have to reach for the ball on a handoff, the QB is supposed to put the ball in your gut. Carr looked like he was intent on carrying out the fake, and had already turned his head to continue the fake when he put the ball on Taylor's right hip. Taylor never had a chance.