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View Full Version : QB Guru my arse....


thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 05:11 PM
First I'd like to submit Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, and Tommy Maddox as exhibit 1 through 4.... he didn't fix any of these guys.... he didn't help any of them become successful(except Jake for 1(maybe 2) year(s)).

Now.. David Carr...... exhibit 5. I understand he was working late in January & only had a short time to watch game field on David before he made the decision to extend David's contract. But how long would it take you to figure out what his main problems are??

Ok he got the feet thing...... I wouldn't have picked up on it... I'm not a QB, but I can understand how important footwork is. It's the basis for his timing.. it's how his clock sync's with the offense.. the receivers. & it looks like David has come a long way with his foot work. he's maintaining his cadence and stride after he's been sacked, hit, or pressured.

But what was his next problem?? I'd say it's got to be holding the ball too long, or staring down his recievers{not reading his progressions}. How far has David come in these areas?? I don't believe he's improved in these areas at all.

An inability to play out of the shotgun.... how long does it take to teach a 30 year old rookie how to play out of the shotgun??

If you can think of any area David has improved his game, post it here. Maybe I'm wrong, and just don't know what to look at, or I'm looking at it all wrong.



Last but not least I'd like to say I'm not disappointed in anyway that GK is the coach of the Houston Texans. I look forward to bringing the Denver style WCO to Houston..... I'm just not to impressed with his QB tutelage.

mexican_texan
01-04-2007, 05:14 PM
John Elway sound better?

lance2112
01-04-2007, 05:16 PM
John Elway sound better?

are you trying to say Kubiak developed John Elway ?

mexican_texan
01-04-2007, 05:17 PM
are you trying to say Kubiak developed John Elway ?
The Broncos didn't win a championship until Kubiak was the QB coach.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 05:18 PM
are you trying to say Kubiak developed John Elway ?

Give him Elway..... give him Steve Young... but with just the guys I've mentioned, that's 2-4...... pretty poor avg, and looks more like he hit the jackpot with a stud on two occasions.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 05:19 PM
The Broncos didn't win a championship until Kubiak was the QB coach.

Yeah...... that 2000 yard rushing monster in the backfield had nothing to do with it.

It must have been the QB coach..... being that Elway didn't play any better or worse...... he was still Elway.

LORK 88
01-04-2007, 05:19 PM
Take Plummer off the list. People around Denver circles say the 2 complete flip flop seasons he had is due to Kubiak. He had 3 solid seasons in Denver and collapsed this year when Kubiak left. Maddox also jumped to the NFL too soon. Kubiak is a good QB coach, its just that some of the players you listed seemed doomed from the start.

RTP2110
01-04-2007, 05:20 PM
I thought the shotgun issue was a Hodgdon thing, not a Carr thing. Anyways, coahes can only take players so far, after that the player just is who he is.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Take Plummer off the list. People around Denver circles say the 2 complete flip flop seasons he had is due to Kubiak. He had 3 solid seasons in Denver and collapsed this year when Kubiak left.

that makes him a great Offensive Coordinator..... not a QB coach. He obviously didn't teach Plummer anything that stuck. He didn't "fix" him. he hid his weaknesses in the offensive attack.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 05:22 PM
I thought the shotgun issue was a Hodgdon thing, not a Carr thing. Anyways, coahes can only take players so far, after that the player just is who he is.

Hogdon was our Center for 4 games this year. David played out of the shotgun on 2 snaps that I can recall.

Wolf
01-04-2007, 05:24 PM
As Parcells would say.. David is overconfident :rolleyes:

mexican_texan
01-04-2007, 05:28 PM
that makes him a great Offensive Coordinator..... not a QB coach. He obviously didn't teach Plummer anything that stuck. He didn't "fix" him. he hid his weaknesses in the offensive attack.
...or perhaps changed the game plan to fit Plummer's strength, throwing outside the pocket.

LORK 88
01-04-2007, 05:36 PM
that makes him a great Offensive Coordinator..... not a QB coach. He obviously didn't teach Plummer anything that stuck. He didn't "fix" him. he hid his weaknesses in the offensive attack.
When he had them, he fixed them. Its not his fault if they regressed, Kubiak was able to get the most from Plummer at QB which is hard for anyone else to say. Its easy to fall back to bad habits and the fact that Kubiak was able to get Plummer to minimize his mistakes is a good credit to his name. If you want to beleive that he's not a good QB coach and can't get guys to perform the way he got them to long after he's gone that, thats fine. But please don't make it seem like he's bad because he's not a miracle and career healer.

tulexan
01-04-2007, 05:37 PM
Brian Griese went to the Pro Bowl under Kubiak

Porky
01-04-2007, 05:40 PM
What the hell do you want him to do, turn water into wine?

TexansSeminole
01-04-2007, 05:43 PM
Tkyss:

You can only coach a guy so far. Sure Kubiak can say...David don't stare your receivers down...check this receiver and that receiver before dumping to this receiver on this (whichever) play. He can only tell David to do these things...he cannot do it for him. I seriously doubt that Kubiak would tell David to stare his receivers down...you can't put that on the coach.

As for holding on to the ball too long that is a feel thing for the QB. You can't coach a guy out of something like that. What are you going to say? "David when you get pressure throw it away or tuck it and run." You can put him through progression and progression in practice to help him learn but he has been gettin pressured for 5 years and still hasn't figure it out.

Teaching a guy to play out of the shotgun? Your right...it can't be all that difficult...which makes me think even worse of David. I can't think of another QB that has this problem, so I wouldn't blame that on the coach. Hell, my 15 year old cousin plays QB and he is damn good out of the shotgun.

Granted...I am sure Kubiak is not coaching Carr perfectly...but I think he is giving him enough of a chance to be successful...thats for sure...David is just not capitilizing.

Wolf
01-04-2007, 05:45 PM
What the hell do you want him to do, turn water into wine?
or water into swine :heh: ;)

Texan_Bill
01-04-2007, 05:46 PM
John Elway sound better?

Right... How about Steve Young??

http://www.nfl.com/teams/coaching/HOU

Kubiak tutored Hall of Fame quarterback John Elway from 1995-98 and oversaw the most dominant rushing attack in the NFL. In 1998, running back Terrell Davis was named NFL Most Valuable Player after becoming the fourth player in league history to rush for over 2,000 yards

Kubiak started his NFL coaching career with the San Francisco 49ers as the quarterbacks coach. In his lone season in San Francisco, he guided Hall of Fame quarterback Steve Young to league MVP honors. Under Kubiak's tutelage, Young posted an NFL-record 112.8 quarterback rating and was named MVP of Super Bowl XXIX after tossing a Super Bowl-record six touchdown passes.

So you say give him 2-4 (young and elway), but don't recognize him for helping Plummer... Hmmmmmm. So if I 'help' someone getting off of crack and help them change their habits, then I move away and that person goes back to their old habits, is that on me or them??I didn't help them.... ?

TexansSeminole
01-04-2007, 05:50 PM
Yeah...... that 2000 yard rushing monster in the backfield had nothing to do with it.

Nobody runs for 2000 yards by themselves. It has to be a combination of good offensive line play...a decent enough passing attack (as to where the defense is not stacking the box every play)...and good coaching. Obviously the back has to be good too. I'm sure there are other things that have to take place too.

Kind of like how Peyton Manning couldn't throw for 48 (or something) touchdowns in a season by himself.

Not disagreeing or anything just that's what I was thinking when I read this.

Grid
01-04-2007, 06:35 PM
This conversation shouldnt even be happening. Kubiak is a great QB coach and a great offensive coach. Move on.

jerek
01-04-2007, 06:41 PM
I'm watching the Simpsons, and we should pick up that Nelson Muntz kid to play QB. Nobody can drag the pile the way he can!

tulexan
01-04-2007, 07:25 PM
I'm watching the Simpsons, and we should pick up that Nelson Muntz kid to play QB. Nobody can drag the pile the way he can!

Does he have "IT"?

BattleRedToro
01-04-2007, 07:30 PM
I thought the shotgun issue was a Hodgdon thing, not a Carr thing. Anyways, coahes can only take players so far, after that the player just is who he is.

Hogdon was our Center for 4 games this year. David played out of the shotgun on 2 snaps that I can recall.

This is a quote from the Associated Press 05:14 PM CST on Thursday, December 14, 2006:



OUT OF THE SHOTGUN:@ Kubiak was evasive early in the week about why he avoids putting Carr in the shotgun formation. On Thursday, he said it depends on how quickly center Drew Hodgdon, a second-year pro who began the season as the backup, masters the longer snaps.

Hodgdon has started two games since veteran Mike Flanagan was placed on injured reserve with a rib injury.

"Flanagan did it well," Kubiak said. "If you don't have confidence in it, you just come up under center and do the same thing. Really, it all depends on how Drew handles it."

Kubiak said Monday he'd like to use the formation more to protect Carr better. Carr has been sacked 36 times this season.

"When your quarterback is getting pressured, you'd love to move him back there, you'd love to give him more time," Kubiak said. "We've got some things we've got to work out and we have been working on them and if we can get them fixed, you may see us do it some more."



Stop blaming the lack of shotgun formations on David Carr's supposed inability to handle it when Kubiak himself has said it was because of the Center.

A Texan
01-04-2007, 07:46 PM
This is just another case of somebody else getting blamed for Carr's inadequacies. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken feathers. Chris Palmer has been villified to no end; yet he is a good QB coach who is still coaching QB's in the NFL. He was criticized as being too conservative; but there's a reason that he was. It was because of what he had to work with. The same reason that Kubiak's game plan became conservative.

NFLforher
01-04-2007, 07:49 PM
First I'd like to submit Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, and Tommy Maddox as exhibit 1 through 4.... he didn't fix any of these guys.... he didn't help any of them become successful(except Jake for 1(maybe 2) year(s)).

Now.. David Carr...... exhibit 5. I understand he was working late in January & only had a short time to watch game field on David before he made the decision to extend David's contract. But how long would it take you to figure out what his main problems are??

Ok he got the feet thing...... I wouldn't have picked up on it... I'm not a QB, but I can understand how important footwork is. It's the basis for his timing.. it's how his clock sync's with the offense.. the receivers. & it looks like David has come a long way with his foot work. he's maintaining his cadence and stride after he's been sacked, hit, or pressured.

But what was his next problem?? I'd say it's got to be holding the ball too long, or staring down his recievers{not reading his progressions}. How far has David come in these areas?? I don't believe he's improved in these areas at all.

An inability to play out of the shotgun.... how long does it take to teach a 30 year old rookie how to play out of the shotgun??

If you can think of any area David has improved his game, post it here. Maybe I'm wrong, and just don't know what to look at, or I'm looking at it all wrong.



Last but not least I'd like to say I'm not disappointed in anyway that GK is the coach of the Houston Texans. I look forward to bringing the Denver style WCO to Houston..... I'm just not to impressed with his QB tutelage.

He's 27 not 30. Not that it matters.

Scooter
01-04-2007, 08:14 PM
griese ... 99-02 with the broncos only had 1 losing season, along with 1 probowl trip (making the playoffs only once in those 3 1/2 years however). never had a negative td/int ratio, and in threw a fantastic 19td's to 4 int's in just 10 games in 2000.

jake plummer ... 03-05 with the broncos never had a losing season and made the playoffs every year. was a probowl alternate in 2004 when he threw for 27TD's and over 4,000 yards. also had a very strong TD/INT ratio all 3 years under kubiak.

maybe i missed it, when did maddox play under kubiak?

bubby brister was 38 years old playing for the broncos and even managed a respectable performance in 1998 when he threw for 10TD's and 3INT's as a backup (the only season he got any playing time).

TK that's just a horrible arguement for a false statement. the quarterbacks have performed very well when playing for kubiak.

your only real arguement is david carr. your question about the shotgun was addressed by kubiak on the radio, and has been explained on this forum on more than one occassion. when in shotgun you have to take your eye off of the defense to catch the ball, while under center you're able to watch the defense move into coverage as you drop back. this year despite his poor performance, carr has done a MUCH better job at watching the coverage instead of the rush ... the decisions havent changed very much, but his eyes are finally downfield and that was kubiak's intent. david carr IMO is not savable, and i've gotten the impression that you agree. that means to me that nomatter how great the coach is, there are some things that just cant be fixed.

a strong piece of lumber would be used for building a house. if that piece of lumber was burned, it wouldnt be useful to build with ... nomatter how great the carpenter is. carr's been "burned".

Honoring Earl 34
01-04-2007, 09:11 PM
I believe TK is letting ya'll build a case to support Kubiak ... furthermore building a case against his student .

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 10:53 PM
I believe TK is letting ya'll build a case to support Kubiak ... furthermore building a case against his student .

who me??

what happened to all the Carr lovers?? I figured I'd have gotten a bunch of those saps in on this.

Bronco Texan
01-04-2007, 11:14 PM
I think what Kubes needs is a QB to build from scratch. He spends too much time trying to repair broken QBs time to mold his own. He had a chance to do this with Griese and I think he did an excellent job. Problem was Griese had the mechanics(thanks to Kubes) but he lacked to leadership skills. If we can get a leader with raw skills in the Draft then I think Kubes can make a winner out of him. Also I don't think VY would of been the answer. He has the leader ship but I'm still waiting for his mechanics.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 11:20 PM
If we can get a leader with raw skills in the Draft then I think Kubes can make a winner out of him.


Also I don't think VY would of been the answer. He has the leader ship but I'm still waiting for his mechanics.

Look....... I don't care to go over past drafts.... but you said "Leader with raw skills" You said Griese's mechanics were solid because of Kubiak... Sounds perfect for VY.....


or Jamarcus Russell.

Scooter
01-04-2007, 11:22 PM
I think what Kubes needs is a QB to build from scratch. He spends too much time trying to repair broken QBs time to mold his own. He had a chance to do this with Griese and I think he did an excellent job. Problem was Griese had the mechanics(thanks to Kubes) but he lacked to leadership skills. If we can get a leader with raw skills in the Draft then I think Kubes can make a winner out of him. Also I don't think VY would of been the answer. He has the leader ship but I'm still waiting for his mechanics.

good point. kubiak has spent his whole career repairing qb's instead of creating them. it'd be interesting to see what he could do when starting from scratch. i hate to say it because i've been an advocate against drafting offensive "skill" positions early, but it'd probably be fun to see what kubiak could sculpt if he had raw talent & leadership from someone like jemarcus russell.

Bronco Texan
01-04-2007, 11:24 PM
Look....... I don't care to go over past drafts.... but you said "Leader with raw skills" You said Griese's mechanics were solid because of Kubiak... Sounds perfect for VY.....


or Jamarcus Russell.


I'm sorry I meant Griese had the mechanics but Kubes groomed him. I don't see that with Vince. I could be wrong. Both QBs led there respected college teams to National Championships. Good thing is VY has a whole career to prove his doubters wrong.:)

eriadoc
01-04-2007, 11:31 PM
Tommy Maddox never played for Gary Kubiak. Get your facts straight. Brister was a backup who got some significant playing time in 1998. He threw 10 TDs and 3 INTs and completed 59.5% of his passes for 7.5 YPA or 12.64 YPC, a pretty good number. Griese made a Pro Bowl under Kubiak - a feat he's never come close to accomplishing since he left Kubiak's tutelage. And yeah, Steve Young and John Elway were already pretty good QBs when Kubiak coached them, but it's not really a coincidence that they played their best seasons ever while under Kubiak's tutelage.

Give Kubiak time and I have 100% confidence he can turn Carr into a good QB. However, it would be along the same lines as Griese and we'd all rather have elway and Young, so let's just go ahead and draft a phenom and let Carr go on about his business.

jake plummer ... also had a very strong TD/INT ratio all 3 years under kubiak.

Well, 27 TDs and 20 INTs is not very strong, but the other 2 years where he threw fewer TDs, he also threw fewer picks. Kubiak let him air it out a bit that one year and Plummer threw 20 picks. The other two he kept him reined in a bit more.

threetoedpete
01-05-2007, 12:18 AM
This conversation shouldnt even be happening. Kubiak is a great QB coach and a great offensive coach. Move on.

Consider the source. Why you guys keep feeding TK still is beyond me.
Take away his mana and he'll dry up.

TexanFanInCC
01-05-2007, 09:26 AM
that makes him a great Offensive Coordinator..... not a QB coach. He obviously didn't teach Plummer anything that stuck. He didn't "fix" him. he hid his weaknesses in the offensive attack.

so when merril hoge says that the titans hid vince young's weaknesses, yet they go 8-3 in his starts, is hiding necessarily a bad thing when you are still winning?

Vinny
01-05-2007, 09:32 AM
you cant make chicken salad out of chicken sheet.....the entire premise of this thread is amazingly weak.....even for TK

HoustonFrog
01-05-2007, 09:39 AM
so when merril hoge says that the titans hid vince young's weaknesses, yet they go 8-3 in his starts, is hiding necessarily a bad thing when you are still winning?


Hodge is moron who is hiding the fact that he is wrong about most draft picks and personnel moves so he makes other excuses. How anyone trusts that guys opinion is beyond me.

HOU-TEX
01-05-2007, 09:41 AM
Man! This is going to be a loooong off-season.:brickwall

TexanFanInCC
01-05-2007, 09:51 AM
Hodge is moron who is hiding the fact that he is wrong about most draft picks and personnel moves so he makes other excuses. How anyone trusts that guys opinion is beyond me.

i hate his arse too, but im just saying, even if the titans are "hiding" vince, who cares? they were winning games with him. to me, the idea of "hiding" talent makes no sense. we could say that a team that runs the wishbone would typically hide a QB's ability to throw, but who the heck cares if talent is hidden. plummer gave kubiak and shanahan what they wanted from him 2 seasons ago, and it got them to the AFC championship game. warrick dunn is not a bruising back, he is an outside the tackle runner. are they hiding talent? not really. they have warrick dunn doing what he does bc that is what he does better than anything else. its not hiding talent. whatever works works.

kingh99
01-05-2007, 10:55 AM
First I'd like to submit Jake Plummer, Brian Griese, Bubby Brister, and Tommy Maddox as exhibit 1 through 4.... he didn't fix any of these guys.... he didn't help any of them become successful(except Jake for 1(maybe 2) year(s)).

Now.. David Carr...... exhibit 5. I understand he was working late in January & only had a short time to watch game field on David before he made the decision to extend David's contract. But how long would it take you to figure out what his main problems are??

Ok he got the feet thing...... I wouldn't have picked up on it... I'm not a QB, but I can understand how important footwork is. It's the basis for his timing.. it's how his clock sync's with the offense.. the receivers. & it looks like David has come a long way with his foot work. he's maintaining his cadence and stride after he's been sacked, hit, or pressured.

But what was his next problem?? I'd say it's got to be holding the ball too long, or staring down his recievers{not reading his progressions}. How far has David come in these areas?? I don't believe he's improved in these areas at all.

An inability to play out of the shotgun.... how long does it take to teach a 30 year old rookie how to play out of the shotgun??

If you can think of any area David has improved his game, post it here. Maybe I'm wrong, and just don't know what to look at, or I'm looking at it all wrong.



Last but not least I'd like to say I'm not disappointed in anyway that GK is the coach of the Houston Texans. I look forward to bringing the Denver style WCO to Houston..... I'm just not to impressed with his QB tutelage.

This just in. Players make coaches look like genius's. Jeff Fisher is the latest genius to coach Vince Young. How's ole Mack looking this year? Downright mortal you say? Where's Vince? Oh, in TN helping build the rep of the next "genius".

John Elway could have made a lot of guys look like a genius. David Carr can get a lot of guys fired. David Carr is a mediocre QB at best.

powerfuldragon
01-05-2007, 11:02 AM
who cares. the texans beat the colts.

Mr teX
01-05-2007, 11:53 AM
Tkyss:

You can only coach a guy so far. Sure Kubiak can say...David don't stare your receivers down...check this receiver and that receiver before dumping to this receiver on this (whichever) play. He can only tell David to do these things...he cannot do it for him. I seriously doubt that Kubiak would tell David to stare his receivers down...you can't put that on the coach.

As for holding on to the ball too long that is a feel thing for the QB. You can't coach a guy out of something like that. What are you going to say? "David when you get pressure throw it away or tuck it and run." You can put him through progression and progression in practice to help him learn but he has been gettin pressured for 5 years and still hasn't figure it out.

Teaching a guy to play out of the shotgun? Your right...it can't be all that difficult...which makes me think even worse of David. I can't think of another QB that has this problem, so I wouldn't blame that on the coach. Hell, my 15 year old cousin plays QB and he is damn good out of the shotgun.

Granted...I am sure Kubiak is not coaching Carr perfectly...but I think he is giving him enough of a chance to be successful...thats for sure...David is just not capitilizing.

I tend to disagree with the bolded. DC as we all know he isn't great out of the shotgun, & i am not defending his play in this post, but i think this is where he tends to thrive a little. i think Kubes didn't run shotgun that much this year (except for the entire giants game) because he knows that we can't protect him long enough & most of our shotgun sets are 4 + wideouts. To make matters worse, we don't have much depth @ WR & no teams are fearing our backs for the draw. Plus when you play teams like the colts where the DE's are there for speed & ONLY look to get up the field & sack the QB it makes things worse, Especially with a patchwork line.

real
01-05-2007, 12:00 PM
i think Kubes didn't run shotgun that much this year (except for the entire giants game) because he knows that we can't protect him long enough & most of our shotgun sets are 4 + wideouts.

1) Protection shouldn't be much different in a shotgun formation; if anything it should help protection

2) I highly doubt that Kubiak wasn't creative enough to come up with a formation that used shotgun where we weren't so spread out. When I played in college our QB could go into shotgun any time he wanted to in any formation. I would like to believe that our formations, or lack there of weren't the cause for the minimal times we were in shotgun.

Why can't we just can't go off of what Kubiak said out of his own mouth about why he didn't run much shotgun.

Double Barrel
01-05-2007, 12:07 PM
What the hell do you want him to do, turn water into wine?

I agree. A turd with sprinkles on it is still poo. Kubiak can only do so much with the base material. The player has to meet him halfway and implement his instructions accordingly.

Mr teX
01-05-2007, 12:37 PM
1) Protection shouldn't be much different in a shotgun formation; if anything it should help protection

2) I highly doubt that Kubiak wasn't creative enough to come up with a formation that used shotgun where we weren't so spread out. When I played in college our QB could go into shotgun any time he wanted to in any formation. I would like to believe that our formations, or lack there of weren't the cause for the minimal times we were in shotgun.

Why can't we just can't go off of what Kubiak said out of his own mouth about why he didn't run much shotgun.


Wasn't really suggesting that it was all formations, not what i meant to convey, but given our problems with pass protection (talking skill wise of our OL/QB as opposed to the actual scheme we use when blocking), I think that that had something to do with his decision as well. I/we know/hope he's creative enough to come up with formations so we aren't so spread out, I'm just going on the only time I recall him really using the shotgun in our offensive attack which was the Giants game.

As for the bolded what did he say, i probably missed that show.

real
01-05-2007, 12:39 PM
As for the bolded what did he say, i probably missed that show.

He said David tends to speed up....

Mr teX
01-05-2007, 12:43 PM
Oh, in that case, then yeah i've heard say that. Actually, i've heard him say this more than once.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
01-05-2007, 12:46 PM
Did Carr ever throw in the shotgun while in college? What was he like then, (if Fresno ran shotgun)? I never saw him play in college.

coachdent
01-05-2007, 12:51 PM
Did Carr ever throw in the shotgun while in college? What was he like then, (if Fresno ran shotgun)? I never saw him play in college.


He did throw out of the gun in college.

vtech9
01-05-2007, 01:10 PM
one thing that I haven't seen mentioned, unless someone is talking about Vonta Leach, is the difference in practice and a game. Kubiak has stated that Vonta is much better in a game situation than he is in practice. Maybe Carr is just the opposite. Carr could be perfect in practice when he knows that he isn't going to get hit, but when game time rolls around, he goes back to what we see every week. There isn't much a coach can do about a player like that. In that situation, the coach probably thinks that he has everything worked out because the player is doing everything right, but when the game starts, the player goes right back to the old habits. Like I said, there is not much a coach can do about it.

As far as a raw QB for Kubiak to groom, well, Quinton Porter is still on the team. Maybe Kubiak can turn him into something.

Sco-tai
01-05-2007, 01:29 PM
First I'd like to submit Jake Plummer...(except Jake for 1(maybe 2) year(s)).



This post is just dead wrong. You name JAKE first....but yet give him credit for 1 maybe 2 good season. They were only together for 3 years...and the ONLY season he wasn't over a 90 QB rating, he threw for over 4,000 yards...and STILL had a rating of 84.5. And his rating DROPPED 21.4 POINTS when Kubes left. *INSERT MANUAL BUZZER* AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-WRONG

Then you list BRIAN GRIESE. You're freaking DEAD-WRONG on that one, too.

The year he left Kubes....his rating droped 16.4 points. And his completion percentage continued to improve EVERY YEAR under Kubiak....and from his 1st season to the last, his QB rating improved 10 points.

Next time you wanna make a point....you might research it first.

Thanks for playing, though.

thunderkyss
01-05-2007, 01:31 PM
1) Protection shouldn't be much different in a shotgun formation; if anything it should help protection

Protection should be aided by going into the shotgun.. it should make the defenses easier to read.


Why can't we just can't go off of what Kubiak said out of his own mouth about why he didn't run much shotgun.

I can't accept his answer because he blames it on Drew Hogdon... but he was being asked about helping protect Dave by going into the gun much earlier than Hogdon's first start...... kind of about the time David was sacked 15 times in our first four games.

thunderkyss
01-05-2007, 01:43 PM
This post is just dead wrong. You name JAKE first....but yet give him credit for 1 maybe 2 good season. They were only together for 3 years...and the ONLY season he wasn't over a 90 QB rating, he threw for over 4,000 yards...and STILL had a rating of 84.5. And his rating DROPPED 21.4 POINTS when Kubes left. *INSERT MANUAL BUZZER* AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH-WRONG

Then you list BRIAN GRIESE. You're freaking DEAD-WRONG on that one, too.

The year he left Kubes....his rating droped 16.4 points. And his completion percentage continued to improve EVERY YEAR under Kubiak....and from his 1st season to the last, his QB rating improved 10 points.

Next time you wanna make a point....you might research it first.

Thanks for playing, though.

So what are you saying?? If Kubiak is there to hold their hand and run the offense they can be successful?? I'm saying the same thing. Kubiak is a hell-uv-a Offensive Coordinator.

Now you want to start talking about developing young talent..... and rebuilding broken QBs... all the numbers you point to prove my point. They aren't good QBs when Kubiak is "done" with them. They're just as blah as they were before Kubiak had them.

Kubiak can put together an offense where avg QBs can look like ProBowlers..... kinda like the 6th round running back looking like a franchise back..... but it's the system that is productive..... not the QB...... not the RB.

Porky
01-05-2007, 01:54 PM
So what are you saying?? If Kubiak is there to hold their hand and run the offense they can be successful?? I'm saying the same thing. Kubiak is a hell-uv-a Offensive Coordinator.

Now you want to start talking about developing young talent..... and rebuilding broken QBs... all the numbers you point to prove my point. They aren't good QBs when Kubiak is "done" with them. They're just as blah as they were before Kubiak had them.

Kubiak can put together an offense where avg QBs can look like ProBowlers..... kinda like the 6th round running back looking like a franchise back..... but it's the system that is productive..... not the QB...... not the RB.

Decent point you have TK, but in the final analysis it really doesn't matter unless you think Kubes is going to be leaving soon. If he could have improved Carr while he is here, isn't that a positive reflection on Kubes? You make it seem like a negative. So, would you rather we hire a coach who doesn't get guys to play above their average before and after they coach? Would that make you happier? Ya, let's hire someone who just wants guys to play the same as they always have, that sounds like a plan. What's the real point of this? I know there has to be one somewhere.

Mr teX
01-05-2007, 02:02 PM
Protection should be aided by going into the shotgun.. it should make the defenses easier to read.


I can't accept his answer because he blames it on Drew Hogdon... but he was being asked about helping protect Dave by going into the gun much earlier than Hogdon's first start...... kind of about the time David was sacked 15 times in our first four games.

I understand what you guys are saying, but when you talk of protection being aided, that is trivial at best The problem (outside of his others) DC or most Qb's who have a problem with protection have is when he has to allow routes to develop b/c the pocket collapses so quickly. People wonder why we don't throw down field more, Outside of DC's debated ability to read defenses, above all, things take time to shape up. Combine that with our O-line & it truthfully doesn't matter if he's in shotgun or under center. That is the most underrated thing people don't look at when talking about "his" problems. Outside of AJ, we don't have much speed on offense.

thunderkyss
01-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Decent point you have TK, but in the final analysis it really doesn't matter unless you think Kubes is going to be leaving soon. If he could have improved Carr while he is here, isn't that a positive reflection on Kubes? You make it seem like a negative. So, would you rather we hire a coach who doesn't get guys to play above their average before and after they coach? Would that make you happier? Ya, let's hire someone who just wants guys to play the same as they always have, that sounds like a plan. What's the real point of this? I know there has to be one somewhere.

I'm just saying I don't think he is a QB Guru......

If Kubiak can install a system where we don't need a 1st round Running back or a 1st round QB to get to the superbowl.... I'm all for it.







Even if that means keeping David Carr around for another season or two. Like I said, I don't care who our running back is(though I'd love to see DD running up & down the field in a Texans uniform at least one more time) & I don't care who our QB is(just don't tell me how great he is when it's plain as day that he isn't)... as long as we start winning some football games.

Mr teX
01-05-2007, 02:07 PM
I'm just saying I don't think he is a QB Guru......

If Kubiak can install a system where we don't need a 1st round Running back or a 1st round QB to get to the superbowl.... I'm all for it.







Even if that means keeping David Carr around for another season or two. Like I said, I don't care who our running back is(though I'd love to see DD running up & down the field in a Texans uniform at least one more time) & I don't care who our QB is(just don't tell me how great he is when it's plain as day that he isn't)... as long as we start winning some football games.

Yep, i'm with you here as long he builds a solid foundation to win us more than 6 games a year.

dantem
01-05-2007, 02:18 PM
Give it a rest man, Carr hating is old news, go cry somewhere else.

RTP2110
01-06-2007, 08:43 AM
I'm just saying I don't think he is a QB Guru.......

[QUOTE=thunderkyss]that makes him a great Offensive Coordinator..... not a QB coach.[QUOTE]

Label him either way you want. (Great coodinator/QB guru) Does it really matter as long as the results are good, and the QB plays well?

Pantherstang84
01-06-2007, 12:32 PM
Yeah...... that 2000 yard rushing monster in the backfield had nothing to do with it.

It must have been the QB coach..... being that Elway didn't play any better or worse...... he was still Elway.

WRONG!!!!!

Go look at Elway's stats before/after Kube as QB coach! Go ahead. I dare ya.

old football fan
01-06-2007, 01:00 PM
So what are you saying?? If Kubiak is there to hold their hand and run the offense they can be successful?? I'm saying the same thing. Kubiak is a hell-uv-a Offensive Coordinator.

Now you want to start talking about developing young talent..... and rebuilding broken QBs... all the numbers you point to prove my point. They aren't good QBs when Kubiak is "done" with them. They're just as blah as they were before Kubiak had them.

Kubiak can put together an offense where avg QBs can look like ProBowlers..... kinda like the 6th round running back looking like a franchise back..... but it's the system that is productive..... not the QB...... not the RB.

If it is the system that is productive then why is everybody(including me) down on Carr? Brain dead people would like to know?

Ibar_Harry
01-06-2007, 01:39 PM
Tkyss:

You can only coach a guy so far. Sure Kubiak can say...David don't stare your receivers down...check this receiver and that receiver before dumping to this receiver on this (whichever) play. He can only tell David to do these things...he cannot do it for him. I seriously doubt that Kubiak would tell David to stare his receivers down...you can't put that on the coach.

As for holding on to the ball too long that is a feel thing for the QB. You can't coach a guy out of something like that. What are you going to say? "David when you get pressure throw it away or tuck it and run." You can put him through progression and progression in practice to help him learn but he has been gettin pressured for 5 years and still hasn't figure it out.

Teaching a guy to play out of the shotgun? Your right...it can't be all that difficult...which makes me think even worse of David. I can't think of another QB that has this problem, so I wouldn't blame that on the coach. Hell, my 15 year old cousin plays QB and he is damn good out of the shotgun.

Granted...I am sure Kubiak is not coaching Carr perfectly...but I think he is giving him enough of a chance to be successful...thats for sure...David is just not capitilizing.

He played a lot of shotgun in college, so I'm not certain where the problem is stemming from. I still think it has more to due with where the QB starts in the shotgun and the limitations it puts on the RB options when running.

thunderkyss
01-06-2007, 02:59 PM
If it is the system that is productive then why is everybody(including me) down on Carr? Brain dead people would like to know?
Probably because David wouldn't progress to the second & third reads.... he'd dump it down after one read.

He played a lot of shotgun in college, so I'm not certain where the problem is stemming from. I still think it has more to due with where the QB starts in the shotgun and the limitations it puts on the RB options when running.

I don't think anyone wants us to go to the shotgun exclusively.... only on definite passing downs.... 3rd & 12, 3rd & 22..... when we generally decide to run the ball anyway.

Ibar_Harry
01-06-2007, 07:55 PM
Probably because David wouldn't progress to the second & third reads.... he'd dump it down after one read.



I don't think anyone wants us to go to the shotgun exclusively.... only on definite passing downs.... 3rd & 12, 3rd & 22..... when we generally decide to run the ball anyway.

All I'm saying is Carr has played the Shotgun and I think this may have too due more with our O-line and the kinds of calls Kubiak wants to make with respect to running the ball. I believe the shotgun is considered to be a passing formation which limits your run capability. That may have more to due with us not using that formation rather than a problem with Carr.