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hook'em07carter
10-11-2004, 12:32 AM
Babin today had himself a break through game...


Anyone have thoughts on himand his performence today?

LiveForTheGame
10-11-2004, 12:53 AM
The guy is definitely showing why Capers moved up and how valued he is in the Texans' mind. He has speed, quickness, and power. I am excited to see how he develops.

Grid
10-11-2004, 01:01 AM
its nice to see that both of our Rookies are starting to make good contributions. lets just pray that they both continue to evolve.. and neither of them turn out to have some game breaking weakness.

Would suck if Babin became an awesome pass rusher who never learned how to cover.. or if Robinson continued to get fooled by WRs.

but at this point.. both are looking like they are gonna be cornerstones of our defense in the future. I cant wait to see what we pick up in next years draft. If our next picks turn out as good as Robinson and Babin seem to be.. I can see why the 5 year plan is very possible.

beerlover
10-11-2004, 01:12 AM
Babin played well but I would not consider this game his breakout game just yet. As long as he stays healthy, keeps improving his footwork and aggressiveness hopefully soon. Dunta arrived last week and continued to shine, clearly the best player the Texans have on the defensive side already. The question now is how the other picks develop over the next couple of years, you can clearly see the drop-off in talent after the 1st round which does validate the Texans trading up for Babin. :thumbup

BornOrange
10-11-2004, 08:09 AM
Dunta arrived last week and continued to shine, clearly the best player the Texans have on the defensive side already.
Not quite, but he's doing well.

georgewashington
10-11-2004, 09:16 AM
Four tackles is not a break out game for a line backer. And if you watch his play, you would see him falling on the ground almost every play. He did have one sack, but that was beating the tight end. if you also noticed, everyone has been accussing Peek of not being able to contain plays, Babin multiple times over pursed from the left to the right or by going way too deep in the pocket allowing Dante to run right past him to make plays, and even their running backs. Babin has not shown any footwork or pass rushing moves to get to the QB, every play is an attempted bull rush through his blocker, and obviously that only worked on a tight end who isnt bigger than him. And say what you want about Peek but noticed when he was in, 3-10 in the 4th, and 2 and 3rd in overtime when they were not sure passing downs. and i believe in the first two plays he closed to pocket forcing cullpepper to step up into robaire smith who sacked him and the second play he also shrunk the pocket making dante get rid of it early. And it is also difficult to say Peek cant play against the run when his senior year he led his team with over 100 tackles as a defensive end.

bruenice
10-11-2004, 11:25 AM
peek flat out needs more field time. babin is improving, but he also does a lot of stupid things too. i swear he ends up on the turf 40% of his snaps, which doesn't benefit at all on defense. 3 snaps on defense is not enough for a player that started 4 games last year and did rather well during those games.

JDizzle
10-11-2004, 11:36 AM
peek flat out needs more field time. babin is improving, but he also does a lot of stupid things too. i swear he ends up on the turf 40% of his snaps, which doesn't benefit at all on defense. 3 snaps on defense is not enough for a player that started 4 games last year and did rather well during those games.

I thought Babin had a good day yesterday. I saw him bite (big time) on a bootleg, but other than that he did good. I didn't see him on the turf "40% of his snaps". He got a sack and almost popped the ball out of Culpepper's hands. There were also a couple of occasions where he blew up the RT back into the pocket. Babin had a decent day.

Did Gary Walker forget how to tackle? There were times yesterday when the D's ability to tackle was laughable, and times where Sharper and Foreman looked like headhunters. But what was Sharper doing covering Marcus Robinson on that TD in overtime? I wonder if he was supposed to be on him, or if it was a bust in coverage and he was trying to save a TD.

georgewashington
10-11-2004, 11:45 AM
how could you not see him on the turf? maybe it was because his o-lineman was on top of him. and he bit bigger tahn life on the bootleg, but also on run plays where the running back cut from his left to right babin ended up on the other side of the field from where he starts? that is not contain. and when it was a crucial pass rush inthe end peek was in, and i would say that it was crucial pass rush time the whole game since they threw for like 400 yards. and have you ever noticed how much the fans like it when peek is in? seems like giving the game ball to the fans last week means that the crowd has a say in the outcome, and if peek has a say inthe crowd, you do the math.

TexaninKorea
10-11-2004, 11:47 AM
HUGE props to Babin on his first great game. If Dunta would have had as big a game we would have come away with a W. But don't fret, we played as good a team as we've ever played and took them to overtime. I think this Texans team can AT LEAST make .500.

Vinny
10-11-2004, 11:49 AM
have you ever noticed how much the fans like it when peek is in? seems like giving the game ball to the fans last week means that the crowd has a say in the outcome, and if peek has a say inthe crowd, you do the math.Peek has been terrible as an every down OLB. He takes bad angles and teams isolate him and expose the edge when he plays. Right now he is a situational pass rusher only.

Babin had a fine game yesterday, and sure, he will be on the ground from time to time, like everyone else. He is making our decision to move up to snag him look like a better and better move each week.

JDizzle
10-11-2004, 12:42 PM
and have you ever noticed how much the fans like it when peek is in? seems like giving the game ball to the fans last week means that the crowd has a say in the outcome, and if peek has a say inthe crowd, you do the math.

That is just a silly statement. Implying that the fans will only get loud when Peek is in there is absurd.

Peek gets sealed faster than a zip lock bag against the run, he's horrible at fighting off blocks to make a tackle, or even keep contain to force the runner inside to one of the LB's. Babin has 2 sacks so far, and he's played well against the run for a rook making a tough transition. Peek, on the other hand, hasn't proven much against the run in his second year.

There were times yester day when we did get pressure on Culpepper with just a 4 man rush (with Babin in). But Culpepper is one of the best QB's in the league and one tough mofo to bring down.

MLB
10-11-2004, 01:33 PM
Babin bit on the QB bootleg and is one of the biggest rookie mistakes there is. Playing as a defensive end on running plays Babin is responsible for outside containment on his side of the field, not the other side. Why in the world would he chase a running back he has no chance to catch (he was running in the opposite direction) to the opposite side of the field and not be sure the QB doesn't have the ball (which is on his side of the field)? All he has to do is not allow anyone around his end position on running plays, turn it back to the inside where you have help. (He is making more money that most of us on this board make in total to do this one thing on running plays) It's a simple job description but so easily forgotten by rookies it seems. That play was one of the major reasons we lost this game but was a lesson he should have learned early in college.

bruenice
10-11-2004, 01:44 PM
Peek gets sealed faster than a zip lock bag against the run, he's horrible at fighting off blocks to make a tackle, or even keep contain to force the runner inside to one of the LB's. Babin has 2 sacks so far, and he's played well against the run for a rook making a tough transition. Peek, on the other hand, hasn't proven much against the run in his second year.

how can he show improvement on the run when he isn't in there to improve. i'm sorry, but i must agree with mlb and georgewashington. for as many good plays that babin made, he made a number of other ones that hurt the team.

jr0ck
10-11-2004, 03:28 PM
(on dunta) clearly the best player the Texans have on the defensive side already

wow, forgetting a certain j.sharper are we? and its hard for me to listen to all the peek pwns babin, babin's a bust blah blah......so what if babin "only" beat a tight end for a sack, it was still an nfl TE wasn't it? how many people did peek beat on his untouched sack in K.C. that he was so hearleded for in that game? whereas babin gets downplayed when tackling the leagues most complete running back (L.T.) for a 3yd loss; i guarentee if peek makes that same tackle it only adds fuel to the fire that peek is better than babin if only given the chance to prove it :yap

Babin had a fine game yesterday, and sure, he will be on the ground from time to time, like everyone else. He is making our decision to move up to snag him look like a better and better move each week.

agreed, just because we traded up in the draft to get babin doesn't mean we should expect a lawernece taylor incarnate in babin's first nfl season. playing solid while making the transition from DE to LB is as much as you can ask from a good football player, which babin is.

Why in the world would he chase a running back he has no chance to catch (he was running in the opposite direction)

must not of played much football, or at least much defense. if moore would have gotten the ball, the left side of the front 7 is supposed to stretch that to the sideline and babin should have been one of the first 3 to make the tackle. that being said he did get "okie doaked" and bit a little too hard inside, but seeing as culpepper didn't run it in, shouldn't the CB/S share a little more of than blame than "its babin's fault they scored"?

my only complaint about jason babin is his gooney goatie, he looks like the love child of a vampire and luigi (of super mario brother fame):BananaWav

georgewashington
10-11-2004, 04:15 PM
The point of stretching the field is not to get someone from teh other side to make the tackle, it is to allow more men to come up to the line to make the play. The back side does not come over to make the play, because if there is a cut back, then who do you suppose will stop it? a safety 15 yards down field? an offside LB should only be making tackles on the other side of the field if someone breaks off a run, if its in the backfield thats the job of the other linebackers and linemen. and just because daunte didnt run it doesnt mean Babin isnt at fault, he had all day out on the flat to make a pass, and yes it was a huge back breaker in the game. and for those of you who say his play has been better and better you tell me how 18 tackles and 2 sacks in playing basically 5 games, except 4th quarter against KC, is better than 7 tackles and a sack, and forcing two other sacks in basically 1 quarter against KC, and a few other random downs that Peek has? exactly the math doesnt add up for Babin, say what you want but numbers dont lie.

chuckm
10-11-2004, 04:37 PM
oh jeeeez here we go again with the Babin v. Peek posts .... why does it have to be either or? How about on passing downs getting one of the down linemen out of the game and having Babin line up at DE like he did in college? Peek's game is speed .... Babin seems to have more all around ability ....

:twocents:

jr0ck
10-11-2004, 05:21 PM
The point of stretching the field is not to get someone from teh other side to make the tackle, it is to allow more men to come up to the line to make the play

so when its hat on hat, w/the DE, LBs, and CB stretching the play your telling me that the untouched backside LB isn't going to run down the RB when he is only moving parallel to the LOS? i didn't say he is suppoed to make the play, but at least one of the first of defenders there.

and just because daunte didnt run it doesnt mean Babin isnt at fault, he had all day out on the flat to make a pass, and yes it was a huge back breaker in the game. and for those of you who say his play has been better and better you tell me how 18 tackles and 2 sacks in playing basically 5 games, except 4th quarter against KC, is better than 7 tackles and a sack, and forcing two other sacks in basically 1 quarter against KC, and a few other random downs that Peek has? exactly the math doesnt add up for Babin, say what you want but numbers dont lie.

so it was a big enough back breaker that we didn't stay poised enough to take the most productive offense in the league to OT and then give a chance to our offense to win the game after losing the toss? if you want to go by numbers fine, i thought the patriots recent winning streak/2 out of 3 SB victories would have shown the holes in the "numbers game" by now. and just because i saw it, peek's play on the winning TD pass showed me why he's a situational pass rusher. not only did he jump offsides but he got mugged even having the jump. so had the TD not been caught peek's "higher ability" would have given daunte another chance at finding the endzone or getting a 1st down in field goal territory.

and forcing two other sacks in basically 1 quarter against KC, and a few other random downs that Peek has

so strictly stats apply to babin but intangibles like "other random downs" and "forcing two other sacks" are valid points for peek? babin gives the texans a better chance to win as a starter period. the texans would be at more of a loss without babin than peek period.

georgewashington
10-11-2004, 07:57 PM
strictly stats apply to both of them thats the point. if you take the ratio of tackles to the ratio of playing time, peek is just as good if not better statistically. the stats do apply to both of them. and if its strength you say peek doesnt have, then how is it that at the combine he threw up the most reps for OLB with a hurt shoulder? the only thing that peek was lacking on was making some reads last year, and if he had some playing time then that would improve, just like you say babins will. your argument is skewed, you cant argue that one guy is better or will be better after some more reps, when the person that you are arguing against needs the same thing. this is the same reason why rookies dont start at QB, they need time to develop, so why does that not apply to other positions. and with some game time peek would pick it up quicker just like in college where freshman year he started as a wide receiver, then moved to safety, then added 50 pounds to play DE. seems like he has learned how to make adjustments when he is given chances.

jacquescas
10-11-2004, 08:12 PM
Babin is where we invested alot of picks and alot more money than Peek. Babin will be given every opportunity to start and play up to his potential, unless Peek can simply play outstanding the few plays he is in there he wont get more time unless someone goes down with an injury (Peek also was offsides on the last play of the game)

georgewashington
10-11-2004, 08:29 PM
Exactly, thats why the texans shouldnt have spent so much on him, he was not projected to go near that early. I know that he has potential, but he was not a Suggs that Baltimore picked last year. And that is what is wrong with the pay differences to rookies, why spend that many millions on a hunch. why pick playing time by the paycheck?

Vinny
10-11-2004, 09:34 PM
Babin is where we invested alot of picks and alot more money than Peek.

Exactly, thats why the texans shouldnt have spent so much on him, he was not projected to go near that early. A couple of second day picks and a third? That was the net parlay for Babin. Since when was a bunch of roster fodder a high price if he becomes a serious starting OLB?

infantrycak
10-11-2004, 09:48 PM
Exactly, thats why the texans shouldnt have spent so much on him, he was not projected to go near that early.

Many did not have him that high, but then again some did. Peek certainly brings an intensity and eventually IMO the Texans will have him as a starter. That said he was absolutely miserable on run D against Pittsburgh. He has played better as a sub during the regular season. Of course the rest of our D sucks at stopping the run anyway right now. Prior to the season, I wanted Wong to take Foreman's spot inside at some point and put Peek at ROLB. Problem is Foreman has stepped up his game quite a bit this year.

By the way, was it just me or did Babin get completely raped by the refs not calling holding on the 1st Moss TD?

jacquescas
10-11-2004, 09:51 PM
well Vinny what i mean is that Babin not only being a first round pick, but one we had to trade up for means we invested alot to get him, and he would have to play very poorly to lose his position, or Peek would have to play extremely well. Neither has happened. Peek was a 3rd round pick and we can afford for him to learn the game slower because he isn't millions of dollars sitting on the bench.


I know it should be about who is playing the best or whatever, but in the NFL salary means something. You don't think Bradford is looking over his shoulder when he makes 2.2 million and Armstrong who makes 2 million dollars less than him is outplaying him?

texasguy346
10-11-2004, 11:04 PM
I think salary plays a role, but I'm not sure it's a deciding factor in this case. If Peek played better against the run, or kept contain then I'm sure Capers would have him in the starting lineup, and use Babin as a situational pass rusher. Much like the scenario that played out in Cincinatti last season. The Bengals invested alot of money in Palmer, but they wanted to develop him slowly and gave the starting job to Kitna. Palmer is in now because he represents the futrue of the organization, and he's got a high salary. Babin and Peek are both young players, and both represent the future of the organization. So the team wants to develop both players. If Babin was a liability to the team when he's in the lineup I'm sure that the Texans would put Peek in the lineup if he were a better option. I don't see Babin as a liability, and I've seen him play better and better in each game this season. Peek is great, but he's got to learn his responsibilities when he's on the field. I feel he'll eventually be starting opposite of Babin at the other OLB position, but until that time he's still a very good situational pass rusher.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-11-2004, 11:23 PM
Babin will be a cornerstone of our defense for many years to come. Be patient with him. The transition from DE to OLB is tough. Terrell Suggs wasn't even an every down player when he was drafted. It took him a full year to become a complete LB.

BABINFAN
10-12-2004, 09:55 AM
he's played 5 games for God's sake! He's never played LB before, and is still learning the position. If you think they messed up by drafting him, don't blame him, blame management.

Can we please evaluate him after one complete season? Geez...unreal

beerlover
10-12-2004, 11:07 AM
Here is a link that reviews how week 5 rookies fared-

http://www.gbnreport.com/rookiereport.htm

the Texans planned to use Babin in lots of pass rushing downs, he reminds me of New England's Teddy Brewski, I also believe the Patriots were rumored to be seriously drafting Babin with their 2nd 1st round pick #32. When the Texans learned of this and that Babin would not be available with their 2nd round pick #40 they traded it to Tennessee along with #71 & #103. The Pats had to go another direction taking TE Ben Watson who is hurt I believe. The Titans used #40 for their TE Ben Troupe, #71 DT Randy Starks & #103 Bo Schobel (out for season). You be the judge :hmmm:

georgewashington
10-12-2004, 04:19 PM
Babin is going to be a good player, but he needs to be playing what he was projected to play, a DE. If you look at all the draft analysis it talks about how he got up to 280 pounds at the combines and how he was a good rusher, even playing downs as a DT in college. Clearly looking at that and his production so far this year (stopping the run and more inside rushing skills as opposed to speed moves) why would the texans not be interested in playing him as a DE at least in passing downs? That would allow the best three rushers in the game, being Wong, Peek and Babin. Through in the blitz of Sharper up the middle or Robinson from the corner and there are going to be sacks.

Vinny
10-12-2004, 04:24 PM
Babin was projected to play OLB with us. Plain and simple. There is no way he could play a 3-4 end as a starter. Frankly Babin was considered a risky pick as a 4-3 down lineman due to his small size and that is why most projected him as a later pick....because most teams run a 4-3. Also, Babin does drop down as an end in passing situations. You will see this more and more as he gets comfortable in our defense also.

JDizzle
10-12-2004, 04:50 PM
By the way, was it just me or did Babin get completely raped by the refs not calling holding on the 1st Moss TD?

There were several times where there should have been a hold called (if you use the call on Pitts as a guage for holds in this game), but that one was so obvious. Also, Hoverrated got away with a couple of late shots, including one right on Carr's noggin.

jr0ck
10-12-2004, 04:59 PM
the one thing i don't get is the obsession with getting our best pass rushers in as starters. teams don't pass every play. yes the 3-4 is schemed as a blitz orienented defense but isn't it the number of guys you send that makes it succesful more than anything else? and as its been pointed out numerous times before, unless we send peek on an outside blitz everydown, then he's a much bigger liability on the field than babin. i don't see whats so hard to see about that.....

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 05:04 PM
for some reason, whenever I try to think of a comparison to Babin, I always come up with Michael McCrary. not a flashy player but plays with a ton of heart and hustle. he was the true definition of a non stop motor. If you have seen McCrary play, you would know what I mean. of course McCrary was slightly bigger than Babin but not by much.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 05:07 PM
I think Babin's pass rush has been improving. He isn't as hesitant. You can tell he is beginning to get over that learning curve.

TheOgre
10-12-2004, 05:14 PM
I know that he has potential, but he was not a Suggs that Baltimore picked last year.

I agree. That is why Suggs was the 10th overall player taken in 2003 and Babin was the 27th taken in 2004.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 05:23 PM
When the Ravens drafted Suggs, he was strictly used as a situational pass rusher because Suggs mightily struggled against the run and in coverage. We drafted Babin and immediately put him out on the field as an every down player. Babin was put in a much more difficult situation than Suggs so he will take his lumps throughout the season as he learns the position. It took Suggs a whole season plus training camp to become a complete OLB. Be patient with Babin.

Vinny
10-12-2004, 05:27 PM
When the Ravens drafted Suggs, he was strictly used as a situational pass rusher because Suggs mightily struggled against the run and in coverage. We drafted Babin and immediately put him out on the field as an every down player. Babin was put in a much more difficult situation than Suggs so he will take his lumps throughout the season as he learns the position. It took Suggs a whole season plus training camp to become a complete OLB. Be patient with Babin.
Suggs was penciled in as starter for a few weeks early last year. He lost the starting job last season and has only receintly had enough of a well-rounded game to start. Common knowledge is it takes roughly 3 years for a 'tweener' to convert fully from a College end to an NFL OLB.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 05:48 PM
I don't know about a full 3 years. That may be stretching it a bit. Maybe going INTO their 3rd season. Suggs has looked great so far this season. But the point I was making when I mentioned Suggs' name earlier in the thread was that what we are seeing from Babin now is nothing compared to how good he will be after a full season playing the position. As a rookie, all Suggs was asked to do was rush the passer. We are asking for a whole lot more from Babin when compared to Suggs in his rookie season.

georgewashington
10-12-2004, 06:04 PM
exactly, it took suggs time just like it will babin. not many rookies should be playing every snap, there is more to learning than taking lumps. and once again he is allowed to take his lumps on the field while peek is taking lumps on the sideline. give the kid a shot sometime, taking lumps on or off the field is all about the money

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 06:13 PM
exactly, it took suggs time just like it will babin. not many rookies should be playing every snap, there is more to learning than taking lumps. and once again he is allowed to take his lumps on the field while peek is taking lumps on the sideline. give the kid a shot sometime, taking lumps on or off the field is all about the money




Weren't you saying Babin should be playing DE?

georgewashington
10-12-2004, 06:20 PM
i said they could work him in some as a DE, but also that being a rookie it is not smart to let all the lumps be made on the field. my point is that peek isnt going to progress without any chances in the game. the problem is that money decides who gets a chance to grow more quickly. And what i really find a problem with is the lack of subs in the linebackers. Every team rotates their players to get rest, especially when in the first half the defense was in 20 out of 30 mins. Why not let peek give babin a break, give wong a break. why not let wong move to the middle to give foreman a break. Thats the point of having some depth. All preseason there was talk about some depth at OLB and Wong's versatility. They need to use it. How come teams like the Seahawks rotate 8 defensive lineman? because it keeps them fresh and makes the team better. The texans need to learn from that and realize that even if peek and babin are still learning, they can rotate some and it will make the team and those individuals better in the short term and long term

Grid
10-12-2004, 06:26 PM
defensive linemen need breaks cause they are 300lbs of duncan donuts and twinkies.

LBs.. are supposed to be fit and capable of playing all day.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
10-12-2004, 06:30 PM
I am hoping to see Babin and Peek as our starting OLBs next season.

Mistril48
10-12-2004, 07:07 PM
Many did not have him that high, but then again some did...... and of course, it only takes one team to draft a player ahead of you, not every team.

Prior to the season, I wanted Wong to take Foreman's spot inside at some point and put Peek at ROLB. Problem is Foreman has stepped up his game quite a bit this year.I look at it like Babin is doing well and having him at LOLB has allowed Wong to play ROLB and I believe he is playing better at ROLB than he did at LOLB. In this way, you can look at the Babin pick as a 2 for 1, in the same way Dunte Robinson was a 2 for 1 (Coleman could move to FS).

In regards to Peek, I like our situation this year. I believe that that the Texans feel they have 4 plus 1 spare and that Peek will start as soon as 1 of the 4 gets hurt (hopefully doesn't). In the meantime, he can be a rush end and get experience.

By the way, was it just me or did Babin get completely raped by the refs not calling holding on the 1st Moss TD?It's was a really bad no call, but so was the hit on Carr's head by Steve Martin. How tough is it for a ref to figure out that you have to pay attention to former players hitting the QB in the head. The worst call, though, was the phantom holding call on Chester Pitts in overtime after the nice change of pace run by Davis, IMO.

Vinny
10-12-2004, 07:11 PM
exactly, it took suggs time just like it will babin. not many rookies should be playing every snap, there is more to learning than taking lumps. and once again he is allowed to take his lumps on the field while peek is taking lumps on the sideline. give the kid a shot sometime, taking lumps on or off the field is all about the moneyNo, its all about experience, and coming off a 5 win season. We aren't going anywhere this year realistically, so we are giving him snaps to learn his position just like we have done with Carr. This is all about experience, not money. We will push hard for the playoffs next season and Babin will have an entire year of seasoning and film to study in the offseason.

SESupergenius
10-13-2004, 12:26 AM
Babin is also doing very well when compare him to other guys that were rookie LBs in the 3-4. I dare you you to find many that were doing better than he is right now being a rookie learning a new position in a different scheme than he's played with. I double dog dare ya!

Look Babin will be fine, no need to rush us ahead to the playoffs this year. With the number of setbacks this team has had we are only starting to gel and become a team.