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Wolf
01-03-2007, 06:57 PM
If rumors and speculation are to be taken seriously out of Reliant Park, David Carr’s career with the Texans might be nearing the end. There is talk of the team either trading or releasing the first overall draft pick of the 2002 draft, but taking such a measure has salary cap implications worth evaluating.

First though, here are some presumed facts about how the Texans have financed their Carr to date:

• The Texans executed a three-year buyback option before the official start to the 2006 season, allowing the team to prorate the $8 million bonus across a fourth year and onto the 2005 salary cap at $2 million per season.

• As it stands now, Carr has a 2007 cap value of roughly $7.25 million, the same as it was in 2006, which is made up of the $2 million bonus prorate plus a base salary of $5.25 million next season.

• Carr is scheduled to earn a base salary of $6 million in 2008, making his current cap value in the final year of his contract roughly $8 million.

• While we do not know for certain how much room the Texans currently have under the 2007 salary cap, recent projections put the team somewhere near $19.8 million. I keep an unofficial tally here on HoustonProFootball.com, and depending on how the team treats the dead money for earlier big cuts like Gary Walker, Todd Wade, and Robaire Smith, that cap room could be closer to $14 million or less.

So onto the “what if” scenarios…


http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout143.html

Texans_Chick
01-03-2007, 09:17 PM
This is a must read article for Texans fans. Read it. Read it now.

bckey
01-04-2007, 12:52 AM
This is a must read article for Texans fans. Read it. Read it now.

Yep. I agree. Well written. Keith explains the different scenerios with Carr in a way that even I can understand.:)

SamuraiSword
01-04-2007, 06:02 AM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout143.html

So either way Carr wins and we lose in the contract of his? I wouldn't mind to see if we get a high pick for trading Carr.

Malloy
01-04-2007, 06:26 AM
So either way Carr wins and we lose in the contract of his? I wouldn't mind to see if we get a high pick for trading Carr.

It's called job security :)

the wonger need food
01-04-2007, 10:02 AM
Am I reading this right? If we cut Carr we only lose $4 million?


Does Keith's $14 million cap projection take into account the $5 cap increase for 2007?

Texan_Bill
01-04-2007, 10:14 AM
Am I reading this right? If we cut Carr we only lose $4 million?


Does Keith's $14 million cap projection take into account the $5 cap increase for 2007?

Thats my question as well.... I was prepared for the Carr Cap Hit, but was also thinking it wouldn't be as bad as it could have been because of the Cap increase for 2007.

Double Barrel
01-04-2007, 10:39 AM
Interesting read. :hmmm:

Hulk75
01-04-2007, 10:44 AM
Yea very interesting:rolleyes: , I wonder who the rumors are being started by, John McClain and the media, is that the source?

real
01-04-2007, 10:45 AM
If another team is willing to give Carr the $4 million he is owed in a trade scenario, Carr can actually give back (or, more specifically, forfeit) the $4 million he is about to receive from the Texans so long as he does it before the new league year begins in March, thereby saving the Texans that dead money altogether.


....

Malloy
01-04-2007, 10:47 AM
Yea very interesting:rolleyes: , I wonder who the rumors are being started by, John McClain and the media, is that the source?

I would say that the comments made by Kubiak himself points towards the fact that something MAY happen, not that it's going to, but that there is a chance. IMO that alone is enough for speculative thoughts on the subject :)

Hulk75
01-04-2007, 10:54 AM
I would say that the comments made by Kubiak himself points towards the fact that something MAY happen, not that it's going to, but that there is a chance. IMO that alone is enough for speculative thoughts on the subject :)

Yea something is happening and that something is nothing, but what ever, it sales papers and keeps you guys interested.

Mr. White
01-04-2007, 10:57 AM
The interview with Rick Smith on 610 (http://www.sportsradio610.com/Article.asp?id=264080) this morning didn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement either.

real
01-04-2007, 10:58 AM
The interview with Rick Smith on 610 (http://www.sportsradio610.com/Article.asp?id=264080) this morning didn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement either.

I listened to that interview this morning, and I came away feeling the same way...

Hulk75
01-04-2007, 11:15 AM
I guess you hear what you want to hear when you hear that from Smitty.

What I got, is that he is going to be looked at just like every other player, and it does not start and end with Carr as the problems with this franchise, like others think.

I could be wrong though:shades:

the wonger need food
01-04-2007, 11:16 AM
The interview with Rick Smith on 610 (http://www.sportsradio610.com/Article.asp?id=264080) this morning didn't exactly sound like a ringing endorsement either.

Exactly. No one in the organization is coming out and saying that he is their man. This is a good sign.

If we only lose $4 million by cutting Carr I can see it happening if there aren't any takers on a trade. He makes way too much money to be a backup or a project which he basically is.

the wonger need food
01-04-2007, 11:21 AM
I guess you hear what you want to hear when you hear that from Smitty.

What I got, is that he is going to be looked at just like every other player, and it does not start and end with Carr as the problems with this franchise, like others think.

Do you really think that each player is going to be looked at the same way? Do you think they will look at Carr the same way they do DeMeco? I think not.

There are certain players that have jobs going into next season no matter what (e.g. Ryans, Williams, Daniels, Robinson, Johnson) and then are players that are truly being evaluated to determine if they should be on the roster. Carr falls into the latter category.

tulexan
01-04-2007, 11:25 AM
Do you really think that each player is going to be looked at the same way? Do you think they will look at Carr the same way they do DeMeco? I think not.

There are certain players that have jobs going into next season no matter what (e.g. Ryans, Williams, Daniels, Robinson, Johnson) and then are players that are truly being evaluated to determine if they should be on the roster. Carr falls into the latter category.

Is that D. Williams or M. Williams?

HoustonFrog
01-04-2007, 11:30 AM
Thats my question as well.... I was prepared for the Carr Cap Hit, but was also thinking it wouldn't be as bad as it could have been because of the Cap increase for 2007.

Me too. From what I've read and heard multiple times now the cap hit would be a prorated cut of his bonus and not his salary and would only count about a little less than 5 mil TOTAL. This with the increase made me think it was worth it.

HoustonFrog
01-04-2007, 11:33 AM
I listened to that interview this morning, and I came away feeling the same way...

Me too. In fact he glossed the part about winning the last two games and basically said 6wins wasn't good enough and that the QB didn't perform in some situations and that everything would be evaluated. I took it with an open mind and to me he almost seemed "on edge" about this years performance.

Texian
01-04-2007, 11:35 AM
Don't get your hopes up...

First, would you give back $4 million if you didn't have to...I didn't think so

Second, it is doubtful the Texans will take a big cap hit and bring in big money on top of it.

Third, Kubiak and company are not going to bring in another QB until they fix the other problems. A line that can't protect a QB in a 5 - 7 step drop. (Why do you think Kubiak called for 3 step drops all season?) A center who can't snap in the shotgun. Bringing in another QB w/o fixing the problems will not correct the problems, it will just repeat them.

Fourth, it will take a year or two to fix these problems. As this line gets better so will the Texans, with or without Carr & Sage. Another year or two with Carr and your salary cap becomes very attractive.

Malloy
01-04-2007, 11:38 AM
What I got, is that he is going to be looked at just like every other player, and it does not start and end with Carr as the problems with this franchise, like others think.


I think what some of us are picking up on is the change of tone around Carr. before and during the season it was all "David is the guy, no one else is starting, we have faith".

It could be a smoke screen, but we're not hearing the same-o-same-o "David's the guy" right now, and THAT is reason for speculation!

HoustonFrog
01-04-2007, 11:59 AM
Don't get your hopes up...

First, would you give back $4 million if you didn't have to...I didn't think so

Second, it is doubtful the Texans will take a big cap hit and bring in big money on top of it.

Third, Kubiak and company are not going to bring in another QB until they fix the other problems. A line that can't protect a QB in a 5 - 7 step drop. (Why do you think Kubiak called for 3 step drops all season?) A center who can't snap in the shotgun. Bringing in another QB w/o fixing the problems will not correct the problems, it will just repeat them.

Fourth, it will take a year or two to fix these problems. As this line gets better so will the Texans, with or without Carr & Sage. Another year or two with Carr and your salary cap becomes very attractive.

Could not disagree more but I have already written too much on it already. I will say the "another year or two" mantra gets old though. That is what we said about VY and I didn't even want to draft him. People said he was a 3 year project. Guess not. You never know how a team will react when people are put in place. Good QBs who make smart decisions can make a line look a lot better..look at Romo v. Bledsoe or VY v Collins, or even Brady v. Bledsoe years ago. There are no perfect lines, teams etc with the salary cap and parity. Injuries happen. You just have to find players that make plays.

Texian
01-04-2007, 12:24 PM
Could not disagree more but I have already written too much on it already. I will say the "another year or two" mantra gets old though. That is what we said about VY and I didn't even want to draft him. People said he was a 3 year project. Guess not. You never know how a team will react when people are put in place. Good QBs who make smart decisions can make a line look a lot better..look at Romo v. Bledsoe or VY v Collins, or even Brady v. Bledsoe years ago. There are no perfect lines, teams etc with the salary cap and parity. Injuries happen. You just have to find players that make plays.

All your comparisions are good points and you are right there are no perfect lines but if you don't have a center who can snap in the shotgun or a line who can pass block for 3 seconds you can't operate from the shotgun or take a 5 or 7 step drop.

Kubiak made a tremendous effort to fix the problems and was making good progress. Then you stop and look at all the injuries and changes you realize you are worse than when you started. This has got to be maddening as *****.

real
01-04-2007, 12:34 PM
I guess you hear what you want to hear when you hear that from Smitty.

What I got, is that he is going to be looked at just like every other player, and it does not start and end with Carr as the problems with this franchise, like others think.

I could be wrong though:shades:

If they asked him...."Who will be your starting MLB next year ?" Do you honestly think the response would have been the same ? Do you think he would have said " Well that spot will be evaluated and we'll go from there" ? If they asked him will they be trading A.J do you think he would have given the same response ?

Be realistic...

HoustonFrog
01-04-2007, 12:47 PM
All your comparisions are good points and you are right there are no perfect lines but if you don't have a center who can snap in the shotgun or a line who can pass block for 3 seconds you can't operate from the shotgun or take a 5 or 7 step drop.

Kubiak made a tremendous effort to fix the problems and was making good progress. Then you stop and look at all the injuries and changes you realize you are worse than when you started. This has got to be maddening as *****.

I agree. Frustration. I hope he is gone. You may be right on how they look at it though. If they did, I'd be severely disappointed.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 01:00 PM
I guess you hear what you want to hear when you hear that from Smitty.

What I got, is that he is going to be looked at just like every other player, and it does not start and end with Carr as the problems with this franchise, like others think.

I could be wrong though:shades:

was Robaire Smith or Gary Walker the problems with this franchise?? How about Aaron Glenn or Vernand Morency??

I think the answer is no.. they weren't "the" problem..... but they also weren't producing. for the last 5 years, our offensive line has looked like V instead of U

I think it's about time we found a QB who can lead this team when the pocket looks like V instead of U.

Wolf
01-04-2007, 01:02 PM
heck I thought at times our pocket looked like a W:heh:

Mr. White
01-04-2007, 01:03 PM
If they asked him...."Who will be your starting MLB next year ?" Do you honestly think the response would have been the same ? Do you think he would have said " Well that spot will be evaluated and we'll go from there" ? If they asked him will they be trading A.J do you think he would have given the same response ?

Be realistic...

Yeah...I forgot where I read it... Kubes talked about how great the defense will be around D-Rob, DeMeco, and Mario.

Then when it comes to Carr..."he'll be evaluated just like anybody else."

real
01-04-2007, 01:06 PM
Yeah...I forgot where I read it... Kubes talked about how great the defense will be around D-Rob, DeMeco, and Mario.

Then when it comes to Carr..."he'll be evaluated just like anybody else."

exactly....

It means Carr's job is not safe for the first time since he's been here...

I'm not sure how you get any other meaning out of the statement....

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 01:14 PM
All your comparisions are good points and you are right there are no perfect lines but if you don't have a center who can snap in the shotgun or a line who can pass block for 3 seconds you can't operate from the shotgun or take a 5 or 7 step drop.


Hey I got this bridge that I can let you have for $100........ It's beautiful, and has lots of History... It'll take you from Manhatten to Brooklen...

Lucky
01-04-2007, 01:19 PM
Does Keith's $14 million cap projection take into account the $5 cap increase for 2007?
He has the cap estimated at $109 million (http://www.houstonprofootball.com/cap2007.html) for 2007.

Regarding the article, a post-June 1st release of Carr is not realistic. McNair won't hold Carr hostage by making him miss the free agency period. And I can't see Carr turning down the $4 million he's owed. Why not take the bonus from the Texans, plus whatever bonus he can get from another team? The Texans will have to pay the rest of the bonus, and be liable for the $4 million on the '07 cap.

real
01-04-2007, 01:23 PM
And I can't see Carr turning down the $4 million he's owed. Why not take the bonus from the Texans, plus whatever bonus he can get from another team? The Texans will have to pay the rest of the bonus, and be liable for the $4 million on the '07 cap.

If they trade him, it wouldn't really be up to Carr where the bonus money came from...Well it might be up to him, but I can't see him caring where it comes from...

If they Cut him....then yeah....I can understand what you're saying...

Lucky
01-04-2007, 01:29 PM
If they trade him, it wouldn't really be up to Carr where the bonus money came from...Well it might be up to him, but I can't see him caring where it comes from...
You need to read the article again. Carr has to forfiet the bonus. The team that trades for him would have to agree to pay him a bonus (on top of his salary). Why and why would that happen?

real
01-04-2007, 01:37 PM
You need to read the article again. Carr has to forfiet the bonus. The team that trades for him would have to agree to pay him a bonus (on top of his salary). Why and why would that happen?

Maybe I am misunderstanding.....

I thought the team that he'd be traded to is only obligated to pay the bonus money if the Texans worked out a deal with them, and Carr forfieted the money....

Are you saying that the possible trade partner would have to pay him a bonus regardless?

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 01:38 PM
You need to read the article again. Carr has to forfiet the bonus. The team that trades for him would have to agree to pay him a bonus (on top of his salary). Why and why would that happen?

Also for Clarification...... the Bonus was paid last year.... it's already in Carr's bank account. He'd have to give it back if the other team agree's to pick it up(but who is going to do that??). the $4 million cap hit is the pro-rated portion.... it's like charging depretiation as a tax credit over a 4 year period for something you already paid.

real
01-04-2007, 01:39 PM
This is what I'm talking about:
Carr has yet to actually receive the entire $8 million bonus the team opted to give him last year. It was scheduled to be paid in two equal installments, the second of which is due to be given to him on March 15, 2007. If another team is willing to give Carr the $4 million he is owed in a trade scenario, Carr can actually give back (or, more specifically, forfeit) the $4 million he is about to receive from the Texans so long as he does it before the new league year begins in March, thereby saving the Texans that dead money altogether.

real
01-04-2007, 01:45 PM
To me this means exactly what it says....

So I raise my question again:

Why would Carr care where the money is coming from ?

Ultimately it's Carr's decision because he signed the contract with the Texans, but I can't see him caring where the money comes from as long as the Texans make sure he gets it, either from them or someone else...

That is only for a trade though...

If he is cut then the Texans will pay him regardless....

NEROtheZERO
01-04-2007, 02:07 PM
All your comparisions are good points and you are right there are no perfect lines but if you don't have a center who can snap in the shotgun or a line who can pass block for 3 seconds you can't operate from the shotgun or take a 5 or 7 step drop.

Kubiak made a tremendous effort to fix the problems and was making good progress. Then you stop and look at all the injuries and changes you realize you are worse than when you started. This has got to be maddening as *****.

You keep blaming Kubiak's decision not to run shotgun on the center. Do you have a link to a quote on that because every time I hear him asked about the lack of shotgun he gives some vague response basically saying we don't have personell capable of running it. That could as easily be the QB as it could the C.

Texian
01-04-2007, 02:33 PM
Stop the insaness! Carr is not going to give back the money and nobody is going to give the Texans $4 million dollars. Would you give back the money, NO. Would give up $4 million and a draft pick for Carr, NO.

Lucky
01-04-2007, 02:46 PM
To me this means exactly what it says....

So I raise my question again:

Why would Carr care where the money is coming from ?
Carr gets the $4 million. Unless he agrees to forfeit the money. Why would he? The argument in the HPF piece is that a team trading for Carr would have to reach an agreement with Carr that would give him a $4 million bonus. Is this plausable?

Why wouldn't a team that wanted to trade for Carr just wait until after the Texans paid the bonus? I can't think of a reason. Keith didn't offer an explanation, just that the mechanics were in place to allow such a scenario to occur. It's not likely to occur. I'd say it's impossible, but Matt Millen still has a gig as a GM.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 03:03 PM
You keep blaming Kubiak's decision not to run shotgun on the center. Do you have a link to a quote on that because every time I hear him asked about the lack of shotgun he gives some vague response basically saying we don't have personell capable of running it. That could as easily be the QB as it could the C.

It's most likely saying that my 5 year starting QB can't play out of the shotgun.

no one should have a problem saying "the center drafted as a project of the previous regime screwed up and drafted a center that can't snap to the shotgun"

NEROtheZERO
01-04-2007, 03:40 PM
It's most likely saying that my 5 year starting QB can't play out of the shotgun.

no one should have a problem saying "the center drafted as a project of the previous regime screwed up and drafted a center that can't snap to the shotgun"

Not only that but, correct me if I'm wrong, we weren't even running shotgun with our pro-bowl C Flanagan.

thunderkyss
01-04-2007, 04:04 PM
Carr gets the $4 million. Unless he agrees to forfeit the money. Why would he? The argument in the HPF piece is that a team trading for Carr would have to reach an agreement with Carr that would give him a $4 million bonus. Is this plausable?

Why wouldn't a team that wanted to trade for Carr just wait until after the Texans paid the bonus? I can't think of a reason. Keith didn't offer an explanation, just that the mechanics were in place to allow such a scenario to occur. It's not likely to occur. I'd say it's impossible, but Matt Millen still has a gig as a GM.

Let's say you have a team that is hurting for a starting QB... but you are a team that no one worth a dang wants to go to.... Houston.. & there is a QB out there that you'd like to have as your starter. If you wait until he is a free agent, then he's going to go to Chicago for less money. So you engineer a trade, and all you have to do is come up with a contract that he & the team will agree to. You probably wouldn't mind giving a starting QB a $4 mil bonus, you'd have to to get him to your team anyway. This way, through a trade..... your competition is a lot smaller, and chances of you getting someone worth a dang is better.

But for the life of me, I can't think of any team that would sign David as their starting QB just like that. He's a project anywhere he goes. & $4 mil bonus' aren't generally handed out for back up QBs.

Wolf
01-04-2007, 04:41 PM
should have taken the blue pill :confused:

Outlander
01-04-2007, 04:44 PM
Financing? This fan wants to dump Carr....found on SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0701/gallery.nfl.fans.week17/content.24.html

Wolf
01-04-2007, 06:43 PM
I wonder if that sign is from a poster that had a thread about what to put on a sign at the game (can't remember the thread)

Wolf
01-16-2007, 06:51 PM
I'll be suprised if Carr isn't in Houston next year

dirty steve
01-16-2007, 07:40 PM
Financing? This fan wants to dump Carr....found on SI.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0701/gallery.nfl.fans.week17/content.24.html

it's so original too--like the fresh "Houston, We Have a Problem."

Wolf
03-11-2007, 01:08 PM
http://www.houstonprofootball.com/scout/scout143.html

and if we got plummer? (yes, I know he is retired,but some still feel that he will be in Oakland/houston next season and some think it is a ploy to not play for TB)

But Plummer, who has three years left on his contract and is due $5.3 million in 2007, is reportedly balking at the possible trade.


http://www.boston.com/sports/football/articles/2007/03/02/jake_plummer_reportedly_mulls_retirement/


link was just put only to show the contract status and was before Jake retired

to continue with the what if scenario.. with plummers salary plus whatever we do with Carr. how does this affect the salary cap?

is this possible financially to have that much tied(dead money or not) to the QB position?